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GateWorld
August 5th, 2004, 07:12 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s8/810.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/graphics/810.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#666666">DISCUSS ...</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4 COLOR="#0066BF"><B>ENDGAME</B></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 810</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
The Stargate is stolen, leading SG-1 to discover that the Trust has taken control of an advanced ship in orbit. Teal'c investigates a series of wide-spread Jaffa deaths.

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Excali5033
September 17th, 2004, 06:03 PM
Not bad; about time the status quo got shook up again.
Cool re-dress for the Al'kesh interior.
I see Groom Lake's fine stock of evergreens is doing well as always.
Jack needs to work on his command decisions, though. That left a sour taste at the end.

Avalar
September 17th, 2004, 06:05 PM
Good episode, nice to see some insight on the Trust. I wonder what'll happen to that girl and the Al'Kesh she's on.

DownFallAngel
September 17th, 2004, 06:18 PM
Why did they give Osiris a damn Alke'sh bomber?! Why couldn't she have her own ship, the one from "The Curse"?

Excali5033
September 17th, 2004, 06:21 PM
Whoops, did I mess up my apostrophes?

Dunno, I would have liked to see that ship again, too.

jburrows
September 17th, 2004, 06:24 PM
Nice episode. Like the asgard gave us beam technoligy.

The only thing I would wonder is that instead of sam, daniel and tealc beam out of the alkesh why did they not simply take control of the alkesh since there only person control of other ship. Teal'c alone with 1 hand tied behind his back could take care 1 human female.

DownFallAngel
September 17th, 2004, 06:25 PM
Dude, I never get the puncuation right.

So don't follow me.

And her ship should have been there.

Anyone else notice that they used the same clip from "Promotheus (6x11)" as they did in this episode? It was when there was a full frontal extior shot of Prometheus.

http://gateworld.net/sg1/s6/graphics/611_07.jpg

Bobthespirit
September 17th, 2004, 06:36 PM
So...the Trust is like the rogue NID, but competent.. :D

Yeah, I liked this episode. It was neat seeing that O'Neall couldn't make the difficult decision to do something necessary that would result in killing his friends like Hammond probably could.

I'm glad they gave the transporters limitations. In Star Trek the transporter is way too powerful, and sometimes they have to ignore it exists or make excuses for it not to work to make their plots work. With the locator beams, if they *must* have a transporter...at least they just can't use it whenever they want.

Major Fischer
September 17th, 2004, 07:00 PM
Okay, I really hate to say this....

I felt nothing for this episode. I didn't absolutely hate it, but I far from even marginally liked it. It had no suspense. For the 'biggest hiest in human history' it lacked suspense. I think that's my major complaint.

So, my issues, in no particular order:

1) Area 51, the SGC, and the government can not possibly be this idiotic with their security. They simply can not. It stretches credibility to the breaking point. The alien technology at Nellis should be a two man zone. No one person should have been able to get in to see it, much less mess with it or replace it.

On a related point, the signals detected within the SGC before the gate was stolen should have been investigated. I do not believe any competent command would just write it off as symtomatic of retooled superconductors.

2) The Trust, if they are as powerful as they are made out to be (and I think they are far too powerful for believablity as well) should have had a list of the gate addresses of the worlds the Rebel Jaffa were encamped on. Any truely cold and calculating bad guy doesn't waste is chance to wipe out the Goa'uld on those worlds until much farther down on his list.

3) The Trust people should have been better fleshed out. They were card board, and in many cases, the acting was wooden. The characters were as deep as a frisbee and they missed the chance to really play into the 'ends justify the means arguement'. ESPECAILLY when the argument of just following orders came up.

4) The drama of the episode might have been better if they had killed a Jaffa that we knew or cared about on that first world. So many dead bodies don't mean much when they don't have faces.

5) Stupid thing to complain about, but Sam's wardrob in this episode was horrific for being on a stake out/op. Shinny? She's wearing a shinny fake looking leather thing?

I think the plot holes and general idiocy of this episode tops Affinity in my book. Worst episode this season. Mainly for what it could have been, but wasn't.

DownFallAngel
September 17th, 2004, 07:01 PM
I thought this episode was horrible. I think season 8, minus 01, 02, 04, and 09 are horrible.

zats
September 17th, 2004, 07:08 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa...forgive my naivte, but what the heck do they mean, "summer finale"?! The scifi website doesn't show any new episodes for a good month! When will new eps resume?! :eek:

Eek!

DownFallAngel
September 17th, 2004, 07:10 PM
Sometime in January.....2005!!!!

Also, the "embarcation" room looks so empty without that big ring to the stars.

Major Fischer
September 17th, 2004, 07:10 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa...forgive my naivte, but what the heck do they mean, "summer finale"?! The scifi website doesn't show any new episodes for a good month! When will new eps resume?! :eek:

Eek!

January, it's the midseason break.

zats
September 17th, 2004, 07:11 PM
Nice episode. Like the asgard gave us beam technoligy.

The only thing I would wonder is that instead of sam, daniel and tealc beam out of the alkesh why did they not simply take control of the alkesh since there only person control of other ship. Teal'c alone with 1 hand tied behind his back could take care 1 human female.

Hey...he could take ANYONE, not just a female. Ishta did a better job of kicking his butt than quite a few male jaffa could've. Always remember...a miss is as good as a male!

Sorry...feminism kicking in there for a moment...forgive me father, for I have sinned...

Skydiver
September 17th, 2004, 07:11 PM
actually, we do know m'zel. he was in death knell....and i liked him. it sucks that he's dead :( :( :(

all in all, it wasn't too bad. the beginning was hysterical, gary's timing is perfect.

don't quite get daniel doing a military interrogation/investigation

the civilian takes statements from military folks????

I agree taht i have issues with jack being unable to make the tough decisions. he hesitated too long.

zats
September 17th, 2004, 07:13 PM
January, it's the midseason break.

Son of a...oh, DRAT.

Thank Thor for DVDs. Thanks.

DownFallAngel
September 17th, 2004, 07:13 PM
2 stars at the most.

Its going to be second to AFFINITY.

Mio
September 17th, 2004, 07:14 PM
Not a bad episode. I'm glad that TPTB are actually coming up with good episodes.

Slainey
September 17th, 2004, 07:15 PM
I liked the episode.
Of all the times they've faced off with vigilante earthlings I've liked this one the best.
Daniel rocked. I loved the look between him and Sam when they both ended up captured, sitting next to each other. Sorry about the rescue. Thanks though.
It was interesting seeing Jack suffer though sending the people he cares about into danger. I thought his comment at the end was especially poinient. Insane plans are oh so much better when you're the one carrying them out.

I agree about Carter's wardrobe. Jeans, leather jacket. What were they thinking? At one point I said to my hubby "Why did they dress her us in that leather jacket if they were just going to tie her up for half... oh never mind I get it now."

Elwe Singollo
September 17th, 2004, 07:17 PM
2 stars at the most.

Its going to be second to AFFINITY.Ok i understand you 'not liking' the episode, but pretty pretty please, you already said it was horrible in a few posts up, we don't need another bad rating from the same person :(

But newho, i liked the episode, because it was crisis here and there, and the short return of m'zel, he will be missed :(

zats
September 17th, 2004, 07:17 PM
5) Stupid thing to complain about, but Sam's wardrob in this episode was horrific for being on a stake out/op. Shinny? She's wearing a shinny fake looking leather thing?



Did anyone besides me think "Matrix" when it came to the costumes? The one goon had a trenchcoat-type garment, Sam in the "shinny fake looking leather thing". Pity there was no Neo, though...

TechnoBoY
September 17th, 2004, 07:22 PM
Carters costume sucked! It wasnt her at all!

I thought this ep was supposed to be a cliffhanger ep? At the end I was expecting something crazy to happen.

The ep was okay. It was good but nothing blew me away. Kinda meh.

Excali5033
September 17th, 2004, 07:22 PM
Did anyone besides me think "Matrix" when it came to the costumes? The one goon had a trenchcoat-type garment, Sam in the "shinny fake looking leather thing". Pity there was no Neo, though...
Don't forget Morpheus' automatic handgun... :b

Elwe Singollo
September 17th, 2004, 07:24 PM
One other thing, poor Jaffa! Thats like, GENOCIDE, poor them, now i wonder about that asian chick who ran off with the ship :rolleyes:

Mio
September 17th, 2004, 07:24 PM
Oh, and I really loved the 'Coffee' joke made by Daniel.

Mr. Seven
September 17th, 2004, 07:26 PM
I don't know O'Neil that well...but was he being sarcastic about the "tough choice" part at the end?

I don't watch SG1 much, so I'm not sure as to how this guy's put together. He seemed cool in the Atlantis pilot though.

greytop
September 17th, 2004, 07:27 PM
I thought it was one of the better episode this year.

Have to wait for the rest to see about the whole season, though

DownFallAngel
September 17th, 2004, 07:28 PM
Oh, and I really loved the 'Coffee' joke made by Daniel.

That was hilarious!

Technician #2: Well we went for some coffee and then...are we going to get in trouble sir?
[Gets cut off.]
Daniel: YOU DID WHAT?! COFEE?!
[Technicians look scared.]
Daniel: Na, just kidding.

Elwe Singollo
September 17th, 2004, 07:30 PM
I don't know O'Neil that well...but was he being sarcastic about the "tough choice" part at the end?

I don't watch SG1 much, so I'm not sure as to how this guy's put together. He seemed cool in the Atlantis pilot though.I think because, he would rather save his team/friends than blowing up a ship, thats what i got from watching that scene. I think difference between the character your seeing from the Atlantis pilot, is that he was still probably getting used to being General, and hasn't been put into any life threatening events yet, like in previous episodes of SG1 have shown.

Mr. Seven
September 17th, 2004, 07:37 PM
Oh ok thanks. Yeah I figured he would have had to be promoted to General fairly recently around that pilot. Since in all these repeat SG1 episodes that air before the new ones that I watch, he's a Colonel.

Oh and could you tell me why T'Ulc (sp?) didn't die when he was exposed to that nerve gas? Isn't he a Jaffa as well?

Elwe Singollo
September 17th, 2004, 07:39 PM
Oh ok thanks. Yeah I figured he would have had to be promoted to General fairly recently around that pilot. Since in all these repeat SG1 episodes that air before the new ones that I watch, he's a Colonel.

Oh and could you tell me why T'Ulc (sp?) didn't die when he was exposed to that nerve gas? Isn't he a Jaffa as well?Oh, since like in S6, (so spoilers ahead for who haven't seen S6) his symbiote was removed, and he was put on the Tok'ra enhanced trutonin, in which makes it possible for a Jaffa, like himself to live without the symbiote, which is why all those other Jaffa people died, except him hoped that helped :)

keshou
September 17th, 2004, 07:39 PM
I'm not sure I know what to say about this episode. I enjoyed it and it was certainly the best of the three Trust episodes but I was maybe a little underwhelmed for a summer finale.

*This episode kept my attention for the most part and I did like the way they tied in the Trust's actions against the Goa'uld/Jaffa and Teal'c role in the story.

*Nice use of the Trust group introduced in Affinity and Covenant. They clearly believe they're doing this for the greater good even though millions of lives are being lost.

*Some good lines in the episode. The intro between Walter and unknown guy was very funny, the "you had COFFEE??" between Daniel and Walter was fun and some of the stuff between Daniel and the Area 51 guy was amusing. Although it did seem odd to have Daniel questioning him. Of course Daniel was the only SG-1 team member left on Earth at that point and obtaining the use of the wrist device was a key plot point.

*The tie-in of a lot of plot elements from previous episodes - the poison, Osiris' ship, the installation of the Asgard beaming technology on the Prometheus, the break in the Tok'ra/Jaffa alliance, Mazel back (poor guy), etc. I felt bad for the Jaffa and the Tokr'a operative.

*Sam bluffing the Trust guys and kicking but at the end was good. Daniel almost rescuing her - but getting the zat once again. How many times is that this year?

*Too much running in warehouses chasing people for me. A little tedious and we had to go thru it twice.

*RDA/Jack - Jack's big decision in delaying the order to fire on the Alkesh was a little off. I kept thinking he'd give the order and he couldn't. Interesting scene at the end. Did like Jack's "tough choice" line.

*Yeah, Sam's jacket. nuff said. ETA: But I liked her first warehouse surveillance outfit.

Kind of glad there's no cliffhanger this year. Atlantis is enough. :)

____________

LMichelle
September 17th, 2004, 07:40 PM
I don't know what I expected, but this wasn't it. The whole ep seemed disjointed as if they were trying to cram too many storylines in it.

First, Jack wasn't in it enough and he didn't seem to be concerned about Sam being missing. What was up with that comment at the end? :eek:

Why was Daniel asking the questions at the beginning? He's not even military and an anthropologist to boot, why put him in charge of the investigation of the missing gate?

Strange wardrobe choices. Sam wearing the top of a Catwoman costume. What happened to the regular black outfits when they're defying orders? (ie. Within the Serpent's Grasp) There also seemed to be some uniform confusion. Jack in blue. Daniel in green. Oh, and we almost got through one ep without Teal'c in sleeveless. Almost.

Could of been worse. Could of been a two-parter.

Lisa Michelle

zats
September 17th, 2004, 07:40 PM
Don't forget Morpheus' automatic handgun... :b

Or demented out-of-control helicopters...although they should try to get a "dodge this" quote in there somehow.

I sense a petition in the making.

Mio
September 17th, 2004, 07:41 PM
*Yeah, Sam's jacket. nuff said
Phft. She looked great in that Jacket :) Wait...gotta clean the drool off my keyboard...back in a few minutes :D

zats
September 17th, 2004, 07:42 PM
I don't know O'Neil that well...but was he being sarcastic about the "tough choice" part at the end?

I don't watch SG1 much, so I'm not sure as to how this guy's put together. He seemed cool in the Atlantis pilot though.

I dunno. It'll probably come up later. Has anyone read spoilers for "Threads" yet? Seemed sort of related, somehow. Or else I'm just grasping at straws, which is a definite possibility.

Mr. Seven
September 17th, 2004, 07:42 PM
Oh, since like in S6, (so spoilers ahead for who haven't seen S6) his symbiote was removed, and he was put on the Tok'ra enhanced trutonin, in which makes it possible for a Jaffa, like himself to live without the symbiote, which is why all those other Jaffa people died, except him hoped that helped :)

Wow, then that episode I watched tonight before the Season 8 one must have been REALLY old. It was the one where the old actor who played Daniel had his body swapped with some old dude. That's interesting.

Thanks for cluing me in ;)

Elwe Singollo
September 17th, 2004, 07:43 PM
Wow, then that episode I watched tonight before the Season 8 one must have been REALLY old. It was the one where the old actor who played Daniel had his body swapped with some old dude. That's interesting.Yes it was, and i watched that too :D

zats
September 17th, 2004, 07:57 PM
Wow, then that episode I watched tonight before the Season 8 one must have been REALLY old. It was the one where the old actor who played Daniel had his body swapped with some old dude. That's interesting.

Thanks for cluing me in ;)

The ep was "Holiday" and you're right, it was really old. Season 2.

DarkQuee1
September 17th, 2004, 07:59 PM
There were good elements to this episode: I especially liked that it moved several arcs forward, something that episodes like Icon (and even Covenant, though it mentioned the Trust--nothing else of import happened in the ep) did not do.

I do agree with some of the plotholes mentioned earlier in this thread, plus some additional problems that I had:

1) The soldiers were running only a little behind the Trust operative. Yet, after he gets zatted by Sam, we have all the time it took for her to walk over and kneel down, to be taken, zatted and for the female operative to be sent down to retrieve the unconscious man--and the soldiers apparently *still* haven't gotten to him! Did they get lost?

2) It makes no sense to indiscriminantly kill the rebel Jaffa. These guys are helping to bring down the Goa'uld. You would want to work *with* them, not against them.

3) I thought that M'zel was on tretonin (at least, I thought that's what was suggested in DK)?

4) This episode was the worst so far for emphasizing RDA's reduced schedule, IMO. There were scenes he should have been involved in, like interrogation of the suspect. And in most of the scenes he was in, he had virtually no dialogue.

6) While I can understand Jack's unwillingness to wipe out 2/3's of SG-1, he was made too indecisive. We've seen Jack make the tough call before--he pressed the button in SE, for example--not waffle until the bad guys take the decision out of his hands.

7) I have liked Daniel since Evolution as much as I liked him in the early seasons, but we've lost what made Daniel unique. The problem is--and this was one problem I had with bringing the character back--that they simply don't have a storyline for Daniel anymore (the only exception is ascension, but to this point, they haven't done anything with it). And SG-1 has become so much the most experienced team that they don't send it out to just do routine exploration anymore. He's just been marking time. We don't need Daniel to be a generic "soldier". Handling interrogations? In reality, would they assign Daniel--no matter how long he's been at the SGC--to do that? No, they wouldn't.

Nor would they have him be part of ops to catch the bad guys. Yes, Daniel has certainly learned over the years how to handle himself in a firefight in the field, *when* he has to. But he's still not trained in ops (and we saw that in Affinity. Daniel was wrong to go off on his own with no backup. It's not his area of expertise, and he found out last night just what he gave away, with some pretty terrible consequences). Again, in RL, they still wouldn't send him to the warehouse, no matter how long he's been on the job. He's still an archaeologist and linguist, not trained special forces.

But they have nothing "Daniel" for Daniel to do, so, to give him something to do at all, they're having him channel Jack. Look at when he gets to the al'kesh. *He* went because he presumably could read the language to see if the code was changed, but that went nowhere; it didn't help him. Instead, he handled it the way Jack would have: he blasted the crystals. You didn't need Daniel to do that; anyone could have.

I know at some point they are going to address the ascension thing again, but that may only be for part of one episode. Before that, we get stuff like "Prometheus Unbound", which again doesn't have Daniel being Daniel.


I *did* like Walter: he's probably had more to say this season than in the past seven put together!<<g>>

J.

DownFallAngel
September 17th, 2004, 07:59 PM
The ep was "Holiday" and you're right, it was really old. Season 2.

PS it was on at 8pm tonight.

gate traveler
September 17th, 2004, 08:01 PM
I'm glad that the Prometheus now has Asgard transporter technology.

Dani347
September 17th, 2004, 08:09 PM
First, Jack wasn't in it enough and he didn't seem to be concerned about Sam being missing. What was up with that comment at the end? :eek:

What, the "tough choice" I think he meant sarcastically, yeah like it was really an option of killing them. Choosing his team wasn't a tough choice.


Why was Daniel asking the questions at the beginning? He's not even military and an anthropologist to boot, why put him in charge of the investigation of the missing gate?

Okay, I can see wondering why because he's non military (even though they had a civilian in charge of the whole operation for awhile, so a civilian having that responsibility doesn't seem so farfetched to me) but what does him being an archeologist have to do with it? It sounds like him being an archeologist is a pertinent reason why he can't be given the responsibility for investigating the gate.

aeroe
September 17th, 2004, 08:11 PM
Thankfully this episode was not a two-parter, as I am rather impatient...
The only additional comments and questions are about the poison:

- From what we know the poison kills the symbiote, both larval and adult.

- We also learn back from the poison's introduction that the host is not affected. It's the Goa'uld itself that releases a poison of its own to kill the host, as a "I'm taking you with me" approach.

?'s:
Why did the Jaffa drop over dead instantaneously? They would be without an immune system and without tretonin they'll be dead after a short while. Do the larval Goa'uld still manage to poison a Jaffa in his/her pouch?

Also why did the Tok'ra host die? They would give their lives for their hosts as witnessed with Jolinar.

Did the Trust modify the poison to be deadlier to hosts, or did the SGC/Area 51? I thought Sam said it was produced different and just as deadly, not more so.

Heh... confused again.

chiefchucky
September 17th, 2004, 08:16 PM
Good episode not Great but good

I don't know why u ppl are complainin I thought carter looked dead sexy in the shiny jacket. I was also drooling over the tok'ra chick too.

Slainey
September 17th, 2004, 08:19 PM
My justification for Daniel doing the interogations was that he was doing the good cop. Had there been more resistance there would have been a bad cop. :)
He certainly had the technical background to know what the seargents and the area 51 guy were talking about.
Besides Daniel being a mini-me of Jack is precisily what is aggravating him (Jack, that is.)

Major Fischer
September 17th, 2004, 08:20 PM
I don't know why u ppl are complainin I thought carter looked dead sexy in the shiny jacket. I was also drooling over the tok'ra chick too.

Has nothing to do with how sexy Charter looked or not. It has to do with the fact that A) it had no functionality on a mission, everyone else on that raid was appropriately dressed for, you know, a raid. B) Shinny things catch light and reflections (even fake looking leather things), and attract the attention of people who want to kill you. Which makes you very dead sexy.

I know Amanda Tapping wants to get out of the combat boots, but combat operations aren't exactly the right place.

ravinia
September 17th, 2004, 08:21 PM
I enjoyed this ep, as it had enough components of what makes stargate fun and engaging to watch - intrigue, humor, weaving in elements from past eps, getting off the darn planet, some team-shipping and Daniel getting zatted.

seriously, I felt like a some of this ep was setup for future episodes (I don't read any of the spoilers, so I'm just surmising here) and Jack's comment at the end was deadly serious - he's now dealing with a serious issue that his command decision was affected by his personal feelings, and he knows it.

In previous eps he has been able to make the choice. For example, in Entity he zatted Carter twice even believing it would kill her. Now he's the general, millions of lives are at stake, and he hesitated. I feel sure that's going to come up again.

^Ravinia^

DJFavorite
September 17th, 2004, 08:21 PM
I liked the episode until the end. I felt the ending was a little rushed. I thought they should have stayed on the ship and took it over. But then, we would have to all new characters for the Trust to run across later. We know we will meet up with those two who are still alive (the gal and the one guy Sam knocked out.)

Otherwise, I felt it was a good episode. Jack's indecision and reluctance to send Daniel to the ship and Prometheus actions were good. Shows he's still not sure of his command. I do hope he grows into is soon, as it could get tiresome to watch.

Vesian
September 17th, 2004, 09:12 PM
This episode stunk. Quite frankly, I am absolutely through with "The Trust" and "The Rogue NID" and any other stupid excuse for an episode. In practically every episode dealing with these guys, we never go offworld. Even worse is that it always envolves conspiacy, stupidity on the part of the government, and doesn't advance the grand sceme of things in any way. Probably the only thing I enjoyed during this episode was when Teal'c shot the African-American dude, because I actually gained a gleam of hope that the Trust might actually be put out of my misery for once, but, low and behold, they escaped, yet again, allowing the writers to insert them yet AGAIN in some dam episode.

I swear. For the first four episodes, S8 was doine fine. After that, three "NID centric" episodes take this season down the crapper, and i'm through with these stupid NID episodes.

-Ves

Dana_Jeanne
September 17th, 2004, 09:19 PM
While I'm not overly fond of NID-ish episodes, I liked this one a lot. I've stopped comparing the episodes to the "old Stargate" and thus am enjoying them more than I did last year.

I do miss the old style shows, though, where they went through the gate, and Daniel had to translate stuff, and there was mythology and exploration and all that. The stuff that got me hooked in the first place.

The Jack and Daniel bits in this one were great. And I think it's cool that Daniel appears to be the 2IC now that Jack is the General and Carter's in charge of SG-1.

DJ

alaskannut
September 17th, 2004, 09:41 PM
Phft. She looked great in that Jacket :) Wait...gotta clean the drool off my keyboard...back in a few minutes :D
LOL!!ROFLMAO!!!! My thoughts exactly! :D

Zat
September 17th, 2004, 09:55 PM
Sad to see all the negativity. This ep was the best since the pilot. It didn't take it 20 minutes to get into the story like most episodes this season, it had a lot of action and a lot of important plot developments. It certainly makes you wonder what will happen in the second half of the season, having earth just kill millions of Jaffa and Gou'ld. I don't think I've ever like an NID (or Trust as they are called now) episode before this one, as it was done pretty well. Sure a lot of things were kind of backwards, like the one dude not getting caught and Daniel acting like a navy seal. That seems to be more the fault of the direction the show has had to take the last couple of seasons than stupid writting. I mean who else is going to go onto the ship? A character we've never seen before? Perhaps they should move Mr. Rainbow over from Atlantis and onto SG-1, he'd probably be used better.

So ok, it had some stupid parts and wasn't the best basis for a story we've seen this year, but I think it's execution was much better than anything we've seen from SG-1 this season, which sadly has been the worst one yet, but of course I liked season 7 (and 5 too, which a lot of people seem to ahte for some reason).

majorsal
September 17th, 2004, 10:06 PM
.

The Jack and Daniel bits in this one were great. And I think it's cool that Daniel appears to be the 2IC now that Jack is the General and Carter's in charge of SG-1.

DJ

Daniel is 2IC of the base now? Did I miss a memo? :p

Sally :D

sacme
September 17th, 2004, 10:19 PM
Good episode not Great but good

I don't know why u ppl are complainin I thought carter looked dead sexy in the shiny jacket. I was also drooling over the tok'ra chick too.
But should she look sexy *on purpose* when she's on a dangerous op? What happened to Sam being an equal? She's still beautiful when she wears military gear, IMO, why all of a sudden are TPTB trying to sex her up? She should not have been wearing her "club" outfit to work!

alaskannut
September 17th, 2004, 10:20 PM
Good show...and did anyone else notice the F-302 and trucks at the Alpha Site...finally! They're getting serious about defending it!

kadosho
September 17th, 2004, 10:41 PM
This is one of those eps, you either like or dislike.
I'm a bit on the middle as well.
Liked how things kept a momentum, but Jack's decision felt unsure.
What was goin on in his mind that entire time.. "What if i did this?"
Its something we all asked at the same time..
If he was faced with such a decision again, just what would he do that time..
+not many other complaints, it felt like an ok ep.

AlphaBlu
September 17th, 2004, 10:46 PM
It was the one where the old actor who played Daniel had his body swapped...Huh? What do you mean "old actor"? Michael Shanks has always played Daniel Jackson, ever since Season 1. The only time Shanks wasn't playing Daniel was in the original movie!

Personally I thought this episode was the best of Season 8 so far. If things continue like this I'll be very happy. Seeing M'zel again was good and I was so happy to see Pearce again! He's been missing since Season 6, and I've missed him. And he got a promotion! YAY!

Who was the chick aboard the Prometheus though? It didn't sound like Major Gant, but it might've been. The Prometheus' commander as well, has he been in it before? I know it wasn't Ronson, but was it that guy from the begining of the Season "Colonel Lionel Pendagast" or whatever?

And as for Carter strapped up wearing tight leather? Well... I thought the tight jeans from New Order Part 2 were good! This was just as good!

BYE

TameFarrar
September 17th, 2004, 11:42 PM
Well I wasn't *crazy* about it but I could find things I really liked

I really enjoyed Walter and the other Tech at the beginning...too funny!!!

Liked the Coffee Joke - thought THAT was hilarious :)

I did like Jack's reactions to most things...RDA came off as VERY frustrated by the whole thing and I do believe THAT is how Jack is feeling about being STUCK in the SGC.

I liked that Teal'c figured out how to dial into the gate.

I liked how the whole Team was involved in the episode.


what I didn't like...
Daniel doing the AF interrogation - seemed out of place and just didn't feel riight

was that Teal'c would not have automatically suspected the Tok'ra...he would have thought that the Earth gate being down was suspious before blaming others...so having him act rashly was out of character.

Daniel being TO ......JACK.....and NOT Daniel...I like Rambo Daniel as much as the next girl BUT not in place of Jack

Definitely total Lack of tension.......you KNEW they were going to be rescued with no problem...they never looked nervous...at all

Sam being dressed all *funky* AGAIN....just put the woman in uniform Thank you!

So while I missed some things :S....I can't say this wasn't good just not the best
Definitely felt RDA's reduced schedule

vikingjedi
September 17th, 2004, 11:43 PM
I thought this was a good episode. If Teal'c can have hair and an apartment, then Sam can dress sexy :D

Going a little OT, but are SG-1 and SGA both written by the same writers? Im just not diggin' SGA right now. IMO SG-1 is way ahead of them in just about every category.

Livi2Jack
September 17th, 2004, 11:52 PM
I liked this ep because it dealt with the serious flaws in Jack, especially as General. The last line about his hesitation will have to be further explored. But Jack's flaws are what make his character so great. He is complex. Just when you get comfortable with the character, there is a twist. RDA played Jack's frustration perfectly. Yes, he was punctuation in places and not the driving force, but there was powerful subtext there.

As to Daniel doing interrogation, considering the nature of the criminal, well, a soft approach may have been a better approach. Also, we don't see what went on before. Good cop bad cop. Just being stuck down that rat hole of a base with the prospect of being "disappeared" off world would frighten the hell out of me.

As to the Trust operations, I would have a better preparation if I were going to torch whole worlds of millions of folks. Not just a few guys with a few cans of stuff and a finite amount of launchers. So maybe TPTB are showing that the Trust is fallable and eventually will be defeated by its own limitations. It's like IRAQ, no endgame after you defeat a bunch of system lords, there are still others...Anubis is still running loose and one bad bad guy is not preferable to a whole bunch competing against each other.

And I thought O'Neill's last comment also indicated his ambivalence to free Jaffa. I mean, if they do ever get free, then what? They go running around the galaxy conquering other folks cuz that's what they do?

Ramne
September 17th, 2004, 11:58 PM
Just got home and watched it on tape... All I got to say is...

GREAT FREAKIN' EPISODE! Most pumped up I have been all season, I loved it! :)

Shivan
September 17th, 2004, 11:59 PM
When you guys start LOOKING for the faults, you find too many and then you have other people try to rationalize those faults and can never succeed.

Endgame was a decent episode, and if you want to complain about holes than you can do so in almost every damn episode of Stargate. Sure there are questions unanswered but Endgame still had a whole lot going for it. It is the first episode where we actually see the team moving and doing something more than just sitting around. We see Jack O'Neil struggling with his decision to shoot the ship because of his feelings for the team.

We see him say "Tough Decision" at the end. That shows us that he is soon going to step down from command. He is comprimised if he stays as a general.

I felt this episode got me back in the characters of Amanda and Daniel as well. They showed more and last week's episode gave us a lot of Teal'c and some Bray'tac as well!

You guys are really being too picky here, REALLY. You are making season 8 WORSE than it is by nitpicking every damn episode to shreads.

Endgame had story, it did have action, and it did have a flare of what we once had back in the early days.

So stop complaining. This week and last week's episodes for SG:1 have both come up from the ones before. We can start looking at the positives instead of the negatives. Because the episodes are BETTER.

Thank YOU!

sacme
September 18th, 2004, 12:07 AM
I thought this was a good episode. If Teal'c can have hair and an apartment, then Sam can dress sexy :D

But Teal'c having hair and an apartment has nothing to do with his performance as a soldier and being part of a team. Why was Sam dressed differently than everyone else and wearing tight clothing that would restrict her movements? It just seemed silly, IMO, that she should stand out like that.

sacme
September 18th, 2004, 12:18 AM
When you guys start LOOKING for the faults, you find too many and then you have other people try to rationalize those faults and can never succeed.

Endgame was a decent episode, and if you want to complain about holes than you can do so in almost every damn episode of Stargate. Sure there are questions unanswered but Endgame still had a whole lot going for it. It is the first episode where we actually see the team moving and doing something more than just sitting around. We see Jack O'Neil struggling with his decision to shoot the ship because of his feelings for the time.

We see him say "Tough Decision" at the end. That shows us that he is soon going to step down from command. He is comprimised if he stays as a general.

I felt this episode got me back in the characters of Amanda and Daniel as well. They showed more and last week's episode gave us a lot of Teal'c and some Bray'tac as well!

You guys are really being too picky here, REALLY. You are making season 8 WORSE than it is by nitpicking every damn episode to shreads.

Endgame had story, it did have action, and it did have a flare of what we once had back in the early days.

So stop complaining. This week and last week's episodes for SG:1 have both come up from the ones before. We can start looking at the positives instead of the negatives. Because the episodes are BETTER.

Thank YOU!Sorry, I thought this was the thread where we talked about the episode.

Hyperspace
September 18th, 2004, 12:29 AM
I think it was an enjoyable ep, although it did show Col O'Neill's shortcomings to some degree, and it does rely a bit much on the 'rogue' this and that factor, but I liked how it advanced the story of the Earth vs. Goa'uld War, and also showed new angles of Stargate and Co.

Some thoughts...

1) Who was the Tokra chick? I missed the 5 min. or so at the midpoint of the ep, did they ever say what her mission was? Too bad she died, but I guess she's showin' up on Andromeda? (evidently Sci-Fi loves her, I remember her from Invisible Man)

2) Is the guy in charge of the Alpha Site...kinda young? He also seemed kinda stiff.

3) How many Jaffa were killed in this episode? Millions? And what is that remaining Trust lady going to do?

majorsal
September 18th, 2004, 12:33 AM
We see him say "Tough Decision" at the end. That shows us that he is soon going to step down from command. He is comprimised if he stays as a general.



Hmm.... Yes, you've got something there. He's not having an good or easy time of this, especially because he's not only making those hard decisions, but he's not there making sure personally that they're working out. If I'd been in his position, I'd have done the same thing - waited it out to see if my friends could find a way. If that makes me compromised, you're prob right. My mom kept saying, 'shoot the ship!', and I said to her, 'but Sam and Daniel are still on board!'. I can't remember her answer, but all I know is that I'd not do well in this position. I wonder what the ramifications of this will be for Jack? *retire and be with Sam! :p*

Sally :D

Albion
September 18th, 2004, 12:54 AM
/me wanders disconsolately into the thread and bursts into tears, having spent a completely frustrating morning unable to find a single dl file that isn't corrupted and unwatchable.

/me (having zip willpower and unable to resist) succumbs to reading all the comments in the thread so far and bursts into tears again, now even more frustrated and impatient to watch said episode.

Right. That was it. All I wanted to say. :D

Except.... £$£$"£$"£$£"$£%$%$%^R^%^% downloads!

Will be back later to give a proper opinion when I finally get to watch it! (Probably the middle of the damn week now, knowing my luck.)

Albion :)

vikingjedi
September 18th, 2004, 02:00 AM
*retire and be with Sam! :p*

I think thats the ending most would want to see. I know I would.

jyh
September 18th, 2004, 02:24 AM
In general I too liked this episode. It satisfied those "non-earthers" who prefer the episodes to have some part off-world. It also had something to do with the Trust and the Goa'uld. However I too have some quibbles, and it's not in the spirit of tearing down the episode. But if any of TPTB read these posts, it can certainly give them the general mood of us viewers and serve as a springboard for future ideas.

First, Carter & Daniel took part in two "raids" on earth. I do question Daniel's being there for this type of mission.... he's non-military, and not weapons-trained (other than 'on-the-job' training). Why would he be there? My first real quibble is: WHY DID NEITHER DANIEL NOR CARTER WEAR BULLET-PROOF VESTS? On **neither** mission!! The swat guys wore them, but not SG-1.

Secondly, I too have to complain (LOUDLY) about Carter's shiny pseudo leather jacket. Again, no protective gear, and secondly a totally inappropriate-to-the-occasion and useless article of clothing. (From the TV teaser commercials, it looked like one of those catsuits I hate so much.) She was smart enough to be there to catch the bad guy when he jumped off the roof (I KNEW she would), but not smart enough to be clothed properly. (Her outfit on the first raid was much better, but again should have been wearing a vest.)

I agree w/ whoever said the "Trust" people seemed cardboard. I also thought they seemed rather low-level. If the black guy was sort-of in charge, why was he on earth in a position to be so easily caught? The 'commander' usually stays behind to direct operations, not goes putting himself in danger. Only 3 people on that ship? Did we see them reporting to anyone? That ep didn't further my knowledge of who the Trust are (is?) at all, just told me they're cleverer than SG-1.

ALso, I hated Jack's hesitation in making the big decision. I know he cares about his team, but he's a military officer and he's been in tough situations before and I really don't think he would have hesitated so long to make that decision. Yes, I know, it was all part of the plot, but it really seemed out-of-character.

And lastly, I thought it ended rather abruptly and anti-climatically. I think they would have (and should have) tried to take over the ship. Why didn't they? It would have been a good half-season-ender to have them go off in search of the remaining Trust people/person and go into hyper-drive.

Here's a question I've thought odd every time the Prometheus is in an episode: Has anyone noticed that Air Force personnel are manning a "ship" much the way the Navy does? I'm not a military person but I do know that air force "vehicles" are usually small planes with very limited personnel. It's the Navy that has a captain who sits on the bridge and directs the navigator and weapons officer, etc. And yet here the AF is doing it. I heard a long time ago that in creating Star Trek, Gene Roddenberry purposely based the Enterprise crew on the makeup of a naval ship, which is why all the Trek people are based on naval ranks, including Admirals. He probably did it because the Navy does have the big ships with large complements of people. Which is why it seems odd to have the AFrunning the Prometheus. Oh well, just my silly wonderings.




:p

Major Fischer
September 18th, 2004, 02:54 AM
When you guys start LOOKING for the faults, you find too many and then you have other people try to rationalize those faults and can never succeed.

Well, it is an episode discussion thread and I did LOATH the episode, so looking for faults to figure out why seems pretty logical given that. Please don't ever tell me how I should think or post.

It is right to demand that action have suspense. Especially when the episode is billed as 'the greatest heist in human history.' It is right to demand that villians have depth to them. Especially when they are earth based villins. It is right to demand that the actors give a damn about what they are doing (RDA has looked like he was sleep walking through his part for most of the epiosdes this season, that's not anyone's problem but his). It is right to demand that the wardrob department dress characters appropriately.

'highly decorated air force officers' do not dress on operations the way they dressed Carter in this episode. If she had gone missing from her house, or off duty I wouldn't complain. But she was on a mission.

Dani347
September 18th, 2004, 03:55 AM
So stop complaining. This week and last week's episodes for SG:1 have both come up from the ones before. We can start looking at the positives instead of the negatives. Because the episodes are BETTER.

Thank YOU!

Excuse me, what right or authority do you have to tell anyone what they should or should not say about an episode? People have a right to post whatever they want. It's your opinion that the episode was good. It's not a fact, and the opinion that the episode is bad is just as valid.

And, for the record, I happened to like this episode. I don't think it was the greatest, but I thought it was pretty decent. But, I'm tired of people lording over others because they *shudder, and heaven's to Betsy* happen to have an opinion they disagree with.

And, I honestly don't see what the big deal is with Daniel interrogating people. It doesn't seem to be something that requires any especial military skill. Jack must have appointed him to be the person to do the job. I would think he has a very high civilian rank (no need for Walter and friend to call him "sir" if he didn't have some authority. Dr. Jackson would have sufficed for mere politeness). It's not like he was doing some astrophysical feat that he would have no skills for. There's no reason why Jack wouldn't feel that he was capable, and give him that duty now.

jburrows
September 18th, 2004, 04:24 AM
Well like to make a comment on Jack indesision to order an attack on the alkesh. Well besides worring about Sam and Daniel being aboard it Jack knew the stargate was aboard. The prometheus could not guarrentee that alkesh would just be disabled. If the alkesh was destroyed it could damage or destroy the stargate. The only way if the stargate was destroyed to have prometheus go to another planet which earth defenses would drasticly be reduced until prometheus got back.

AlphaBlu
September 18th, 2004, 04:44 AM
'highly decorated air force officers' do not dress on operations the way they dressed Carter in this episode.
She was on a covert operation and was wearing civilian clothes. Get over it already.

BYE

Gategirl
September 18th, 2004, 05:08 AM
I liked this one very much! I don't have a problem with Sam's outfit, Jack's indecision, or Daniel's interrogation.

What interests me is the possiblities that have opened up. I guess I missed the first episode about the symbiote poison, but now they have a weapon to REALLY fight the snakes....as seen in a previous ep. they have a weapon to get the replicators....and now they have a formidable ship with beam technology (however limited)!!!

It's almost scary to me! It seems to me that what has always been so wonderful about SG1 is their ability to always fight and prevail when fighting with such limited technology and using their wit to outsmart the more advanced races. So, about that 9th season?....it would truely be a whole new world!!! And this episode, IMO, was the beginning of this new world! Oh, the possiblities......

michelleb
September 18th, 2004, 05:09 AM
I pretty much enjoyed this. So, okay, it didn't seem to be a heist episode at all, which is a shame, as I'd have loved one of those..but it was fun. Loved Daniel winding up Walter (you went for coffee!) and Daniel pointing out where he got the crazy ideas from. Jack was hardly in it, and it was obvious his scenes were all filmed the same day, or over two days..at least swap where Daniel and Sam are sitting so it's not so obvious! Loved how sam really can beat up a bloke with both hands tied behind her back..but why does the only english guy we've seen who isn't a gou'ald have to be a whimpering idiotic sell-out? Why did sam guide them away from that particular planet? and come to that, why didn't sam try the wrist device..the fact she has naquadah in her blood seems to be pretty much forgotten.

actually, jack didn't come off too well..when the commander of the prometheus questioned his order, he should have asserted his authority, not stood there staring into the distance, practically begging the commander 'just give him a moment, ok'

so, all in all, not the episode i was expecting, but not bad. pretty funny, enjoyed watching it (for a moment i thought we would get this great cliff hanger with teal'c, daniel and sam stranded half way across the galaxy, and jack left behind, wondering if he should have given Prometheus the order to shoot..but it was not to be). great use of humour, daniel's character has really grown, and i like it, great use of walter, Trust villain boring, but dead, so that's ok, teal'c's entrance really cool.

i forgot to add..really really good to see a stakeout and a raid that didn't involve pete interfering in some way!

Dani347
September 18th, 2004, 05:10 AM
Civilian clothes that were eye catching and stood out.

Is it so gosh dangit (staying pg here) difficult to disagree with someone without implying that they shouldn't be able to voice their opinion? "Stop complaining" "get over it" Please. Did the world explode because some people had problems with the episode? Did it make you suddenly stop liking the episode? Did AT's hair fall out the minute someone criticized what Sam wore? Did MS grow a wart on his nose? Does life as we know it cease to exist? No? Then, what is your (and this goes for anyone who basically says, "I don't like what you said, so shut up) problem?

Mio
September 18th, 2004, 05:11 AM
I'm glad that the Prometheus now has Asgard transporter technology.
Even if we have a difficult time using it.

AlphaBlu
September 18th, 2004, 05:25 AM
Is it so gosh dangit (staying pg here) difficult to disagree with someone without implying that they shouldn't be able to voice their opinion?Just because you have a right to voice an opinion doesn't mean that that opinion isn't a stupid one. I'd hate to think that people responsible for idiotic opinions won't be called on them. That's a little too PC for my tates.

Anyway, the problem we have here is not so much in people voicing their opinions, but moreso to do with the fact that people are voicing their opinions as though they were fact.

I've never liked the Unas storyline, and am sure to say this about any episode that relates to that storyline. What I don't say is that "The Unas story line is stupid", I always make sure to include the nice disclaimer of "I think the Unas story..." etc. I voice an opinion as an opinion, not an opinion as fact.

So when someone here says "NID stories suck", this is completely untrue. What they should be saying is that "I think NID stories suck". When someone says "All this earth-based crap is nonsense", what they should be saying is "I think that all this earth-based crap is nonsense." When someone says "It's stupid that Danny was doing in the ineterrorgation", they should be saying "I think that it's stupid that Danny was doing the interrorgation."

And finally when someone says "Carter looked stupid in those clothes", they should understand that she was an air-force officer on a covert operation and therefore was wearing civilian clothing as not to give away her position or rank. She was not a victim of the writers attempting to "sex her up". That's not an opinion folks, that's a fact. Critique the clothes she's wearing by all means, but not the reasons she was wearing them, as those are plainly obvious. And besides, the Tok'ra in it was wearing a far tighter and more revealing outfit, but because it's not Sam the people here don't bat an eyelid. I wonder if they even noticed Tok'ra Spice when she was around.

As for the episode? Well I think that the NID story-line has been, thus far, quite interesting. Desperate Measures, Prometheus and now Endgame rank up there with some of my fav episodes. I think that they are well written and well acted. The only thing that I think was wrong was that Daniel should never, ever be on a covert operation like that. Unlike Carter he's not trained for that sort of thing - he's a civilian consultant to the military with basic weapons training, he is not versed in the ways of storming a building. That's about the only hole I found find in this episode, and that's when I looked.

Atleast, that's what I think.

BYE

Dani347
September 18th, 2004, 05:33 AM
Well, it's your opinion that someone else's opinion is stupid. I think the people who have mentioned Sam's clothing presented their reasons for objecting to it very well. And, although they have every right to think that your opinion is stupid, no one has been so utterly rude and insulting to say it. I don't even know that anyone does think your opinion is stupid, because again, they at least have manners not to say so.

Like I said, if you think Sam's clothing was fine and in keeping with the operation, go ahead and say that to your heart's content. You don't even have to say "I think" because I can tell that it's your opinion. I don't need a disclaimer to spell it out. But, you have no right to tell someone else that they shouldn't voice a contrary opinion, no matter how "stupid" you feel it is.

Good manners. Since when did that become too PC?

SensesFail062
September 18th, 2004, 05:44 AM
I can tell you not to say a contrary opinion if i know yours is wrong...Look at the polls son...its about 68% think that episode was OUTSTANDING...and 1 person voted for bad...and 6 voted for terribble...and about 300 voted for outstanding..so to the contrary of your post...your opinion is a stupid one.

AlphaBlu
September 18th, 2004, 05:46 AM
Ok, now looking specifically at the episode in question rather than trying to convince people that "everyone is entitled to an opinion" doesn't mean "everyone's opinion is valid".

I think it's a compliment to the director and the writer and the DP that I was so enthrawled by the episode that I didn't notice the direction nor the lighting like I usually do. I'm very interested in directing and usually go out of my way to look for fun little things the director has done with the camera, or some nifty trick the DP has done with the lighting (Jim Mernard you are GOD!). This time around I didn't notice it at all. The episode had me right from the start.

I must say howeve that I'm bias towards any episode that involves lots of reoccuring minor characters, and just hearing Pierce mentioned let along seeing him is enough to get me to enjoy an episode. I like it that the writers have chosen to keep the other people at the SGC consistent. We had a lot of Major Pierce in Season 5 and 6, and that switched over to Colonel Reynolds throughout Season 7 and early Season 8. It's good to see that the writers haven't forgotten about good ol' Major Pierce and, more importantly, they've chosen to promote him!

Then there was M'Zel, who I'm glad we got to see again, even if it was for the last time. He was a very strong character in Death Knell and I'm glad that they kept him consistent in this episode. His "I die free!" was very fitting.

Walter was, as usual, fantasitc. "That would be a no." ROFLMAO!

Essentially I like it how the writers have worked out that we like minor characters and, more importantly, we like it when minor characters continue to show up, rather than them just going through the extras pool of Vancouver.

The presence of these characters and the good parts they were given made the epsiode for me. Thankfully, it continued to get better.

The NID guys were just EVIL. Killing MILLIONS of Jaffa in a single episode. That's some heavy stuff, and seeing Teal'c and M'Zel's reaction to it was fantastic. I'm glad they've been stopped, for a time, but the NID storyline just got interesting again!

Jack surprised me in this episode. He was really unable to answer Colonel Pendergast's (it was Pendergast right, on the Prometheus?) calls for orders. And his comment to SG-1 at the end was not so much sarcastic as it was caustic. I hope that wasn't an accident and this gets followed up.

I'm definately watching this episode again, this time with a view to actually paying attention to the directing. The only thing that wasn't good about this episode was that Atlantis this week was better! :p

I really want a Season 9 now more than ever, but my optimism is at an all-time low of that ever happening. It figures too, just after Stargate has managed to claw its way out of that hole it found itself in during the first half of Season 7, the show ends! AHH! Very frustrating.

BYE

AlphaBlu
September 18th, 2004, 05:49 AM
Good manners. Since when did that become too PC?
You miss my point.

"Everyone is entitled to their opinion" is not the same thing as "Everyone's opinion is equally valid". Not all opinions are valid. Lots of opinions are wrong.

The idea of just letting everyone say what they want and not calling anyone on anything even when they're clearly wrong, that's what's too PC for my taste. If someone is wrong, where's the problem with pointing this out?

Hiding under the banner of "But it's just my opinion!" doesn't work. Everyone has a right to an opinion, this is true, but as I said, not all opinions are valid and not all opinions are correct.

To put it another way, in any argument there are always two sides - someone who's right, and someone who isn't. Think about it.

BYE

keshou
September 18th, 2004, 05:53 AM
Hmm.... Yes, you've got something there. He's not having an good or easy time of this, especially because he's not only making those hard decisions, but he's not there making sure personally that they're working out. If I'd been in his position, I'd have done the same thing - waited it out to see if my friends could find a way. If that makes me compromised, you're prob right. My mom kept saying, 'shoot the ship!', and I said to her, 'but Sam and Daniel are still on board!'. I can't remember her answer, but all I know is that I'd not do well in this position. I wonder what the ramifications of this will be for Jack?
I was kind of with your mom. I kept thinking that they needed to show Jack being able to give that order and he really never did. The ending, with the "tough choice" and then Jack turned and I thought there was a kind of a grim little smile. I wasn't totally sure how to take that but I kind of get the feeling Jack may be wondering if he should be in this position. Will there be ramifications down the road? We'll see.

AlphaBlu
September 18th, 2004, 05:57 AM
I was kind of with your mom. I kept thinking that they needed to show Jack being able to give that order and he really never did. The ending, with the "tough choice" and then Jack turned and I thought there was a kind of a grim little smile. I wasn't totally sure how to take that but I kind of get the feeling Jack may be wondering if he should be in this position. Will there be ramifications down the road? We'll see.
It's kind've inconsistent in a way. Jack has already made the "hard choice" when it comes to Carter. He killed her in Entity (although her consciousness survied, but he couldn't've known that). He's had to make that decision before.

There was something very odd about Jack's actions in this episode, and as I said above, I really hope they weren't an accident caused by directing, acting and editing. I hope they were intentional as it really shifts my opinions of him around and should help to create a very uneasy attitude in future eps.

BYE

Shivan
September 18th, 2004, 06:14 AM
I'm going to be honest- you guys SHOULD stop complaining. It isn't good, and if you are SG:1 fans than you wouldn't complain about every damn episode like it was the end of the world.

It isn't healthy for everyone else on these boards when you are a negative person who cries over the smallest matters. Major Fischer looks for every little bad thing about the episode and calls the episode on it. That pretty much tells me that major Fischer does not like Stargate. If you are going to tear every damn episode to threads why watch the damn show?

You guys seem to forget this is possibly our last season, and all most of you can do is bash the season for the every little hole you can find. Why? To make yourselves feel better? To make people here who actually like the show feel bad and think that the season is horrible? You are influencing people to hate the show.

It's really sad that a Stargate fan nitpicks every little thing they find. You guys are really making the whole experience of season 8 less FUN. As I said before- I can nitpick every damn episode and make it sound like a ****ty episode. It doesn't ONLY work for season 8, and I have seen episodes worse than these season 8 episodes. They are scattered all over the seasons. But none of them are as bad as Major Fischer makes them out to be.

Jonisa
September 18th, 2004, 06:22 AM
Well, I loved this episode.

I couldn't help comparing it to Covenant when I kept looking at the clock during the (seemingly two-hour) scene with Sam and Colson wondering if it would ever end and Colson would stop yammering on. During this episode I glanced at the clock and was surprised to see there were only five minutes left. This ranks (for me), as one of the best of the season so far.

Loved Daniel in it. Just loved him. Believe me, I'm as eager as anyone out there for more episodes about mythology, as those are my favorites, but I didn't have a problem with him doing the interrogation. He's as knowledgeable as anyone else about who the possible gate abducters might have been. They needed him there to tie into the blackmail plot from earlier too. And who's to say he was the only one doing the questioning? He's just the only one we saw.

As far as Daniel going to rescue Sam, yes, in years previously that would have been Jack. But Jack has General Hammond's job now, and General Hammond wouldn't have gone. He'd have stayed on earth to oversee Stargate Command, report to the President and make the tough decisions.

I can see why people might question why it was Daniel, but I can also make allowances for story necessity. Jack had to send somebody. Do I want him to send Daniel, or some more qualified military random SGC guy? I don't care about some random SGC guy. ;)

Also they had no way of knowing that Daniel's Ancient knowledge wouldn't prove useful. Daniel will never be military (I hope!), but over the years he's obviously gained a lot of experience. We've seen it. We don't know what training he's received, but he's a long way from the Daniel we met at the beginning of the series. Yet I thought he was still a little bit of a bumbler, thank goodness. I think he set his zat down when he was working on the computer (probably a military no-no), and managed to get himself zatted from behind.

Loved the scene at the beginning with Walter and the other guy. Loved Daniel's "coffee" joke when talking with the two airman. Loved the whole President exchange. Loved the Jack and Daniel exchange when Daniel was preparing to head up to the ship. Loved Sam and Daniel's look at each other when Daniel sat down beside her. Loved Sam fighting with her hands tied behind her and loved her excellent bluff (or was it a bluff?) about the planet.

Loved Jack's dilemma at the end. Perhaps he's a little too emotionally tied to SG-1? Interesting thought--had it been another team he isn't as close to, would the decision have been as difficult? I'd like to say yes, but I'm not sure.

I'll agree with those who didn't like Sam's leather getup. What on earth were they thinking? What a strange thing to wear. And the NID guys were cardboard villains, but the NID guys are always cardboard villains, seems to me.

This one joins New Order, Lockdown, and Avatar as my favorite episodes of Season 8 so far. Come to think of it, I liked Icon and Sacrifices too, although not as much. Overall I'm really enjoying this season. I'm also liking how close the SG-1 team seems, especially after Season 7, when some of them went episodes hardly saying two words to each other.

I'll add a MHO, just because it seems like a good idea. :)

Shivan
September 18th, 2004, 06:31 AM
Well I am glad someone else enjoyed this episode! Seems like some of us are going to get more out of season 8!

Mio
September 18th, 2004, 07:10 AM
Well I am glad someone else enjoyed this episode! Seems like some of us are going to get more out of season 8!
Really. The glass is half full.....

Token
September 18th, 2004, 07:14 AM
I enjoyed this episode immensely! Walter is killing me! :D He definitely needs more screen time! I loved the SciFi and team feel. The episode felt more like Stargate. There was nit-picky stuff that felt out of step. IMO, since I have watched Season 1-6, then I could feel the "holes", but for new viewers to Stargate, they might not know any different. Scenes that Jack would have done are now done by Daniel which isn't bad but I was wondering, "Where's Jack?" I could feel the reduction of RDA's schedule and the multiple episode filming in this episode; but I choose to overlook it, and consider this one of the best episodes so far this season.

keshou
September 18th, 2004, 07:57 AM
IMO, since I have watched Season 1-6, then I could feel the "holes", but for new viewers to Stargate, they might not know any different. Scenes that Jack would have done are now done by Daniel which isn't bad but I was wondering, "Where's Jack?" I could feel the reduction of RDA's schedule and the multiple episode filming in this episode; but I choose to overlook it, and consider this one of the best episodes so far this season.
Let's face it we're mostly hard-core viewers of Stargate here. Seen every episode. We're the first to notice if things feel "off". I think a lot of our nits come from our familiarity with the characters and the show. RCC was quoted in an interview as saying that Jack would be heavy in the beginning and end of the season and light in the middle. I'll always miss Jack but I've adjusted. ;)

I get the feeling that they're sometimes writing scenes with Jack in mind and if RDA isn't available they fill in with someone else. There's been a couple of times when the words and actions coming from Daniel sounded or felt just like Jack. It's nice to see the characters grow and change but sometimes there's no explanation and it seems they're acting "out of character" - at least to the diehard fans.

I remember reading that Robert Picardo said he might be appearing on SG-1 in the first half of season 7. Never happened. The interrogation scene might have been originally intended for Picardo's character. Perhaps the budget wouldn't cover another guest actor and they just slotted Daniel into that scene. I don't know, just speculating. I think they're trying to produce the best show they can within the parameters they have to work with.

I enjoyed New Order I&II, Lockdown, Zero Hour and Avatar a lot, Sacrifices and Endgame were also pretty good. The other three episodes had some nice parts but overall didn't work for me. That's 7 out of 10 I enjoyed which still makes me a fan (I think) even if I have a few nits along the way.

Skydiver
September 18th, 2004, 08:02 AM
AHEM

can we discuss the episode and not each other????

I can guarantee you that there is no single episode in existence that everyone will like, nor is there one that everyone will dislike.

tera'ngan
September 18th, 2004, 08:17 AM
Liked this episode - but I think the whole "Jack" issue needs to be looked at BIG PICTURE, rather than just in this episode. This whole season kind of has an arc going with Jack adjusting to being general. Yes, I think that he struggled with the decision of puting "his" team at risk. Yes, I think he was indecisive at critical times in this episode. But I think the key to his indecision wasn't necessarily "should I risk my friends' lives" - we've seen him make those decisions before with a lot less difficulty. I think that the big difference now is that he is making the decision, but not executing the plan. It's one thing to pull the trigger yourself and another to order someone else to pull the trigger. I think he is actually feeling LESS in control, because when he is in the field making decisions he is making them based on full knowledge of his own capabilities and potential for "making everything right" or dealing with the consequences himself. When he has made life and death decisions regarding his team in the past, he has been right there with them, ready to die himself if need be. Now he is in a bunker somewhere, basically powerless to actually help. I think that realization really hit him in this episode, and I think we will see some development in the second half of the season that addresses this.

The only other thing I guess I would say is "Was it just me or did we have ANOTHER Earth-based episode?" ;)

-tera'ngan

Mio
September 18th, 2004, 08:24 AM
AHEM

can we discuss the episode and not each other????

I can guarantee you that there is no single episode in existence that everyone will like, nor is there one that everyone will dislike.
Take that back! Everyone loves Window Of Opprotunity.....

Dana_Jeanne
September 18th, 2004, 08:25 AM
Daniel is 2IC of the base now? Did I miss a memo? :p

Sally :D

Apparently; it was send out last month on the the fifth Monday. <G> I said "appears" to be. And it does look that way to me. So, it makes me happy and I'm sticking to it. :D

Dana Jeanne

crazylinguist
September 18th, 2004, 08:35 AM
I was really looking forward to seeing this ep. (After moving to college and finding out they didn't have Sci fi channel...ahhh!!! :( ) as I would be home this weekend. I wasn't dissapointed in the slightest. I found it to be a very entertaining episode with some great lines. "You went to get COFFEE!!"..Lol.

My only qualm was it seemed a bit rushed. I would have really liked to see this as a two part ep. Ah, well. It was lots of fun regardless. :)

jckfan55
September 18th, 2004, 08:36 AM
AHEM

can we discuss the episode and not each other????

I can guarantee you that there is no single episode in existence that everyone will like, nor is there one that everyone will dislike.

Thank you Moderator!

As for the episode:
I'm all for Sam wearing civvies on covert missions--but something more practical than the tight leather in mission #2 would have seemed more appropriate to me. At least she seemed to be wearing body armor in the first mission. (I might have to go back and check that.)
I was also disturbed by Jack's indecision at the end. Sure a moment or so to see if they could get themselves out of it is reasonable--and something Hammond would have done, I think. On the other hand, the writers didn't seem to take the easy route out here. I would see that scenario as being, SG1 gets out just as Jack gives the order to fire & they blow up the Alkesh (sp.). Perhaps we'll see some interesting consequences from this episode.

Dani347
September 18th, 2004, 08:50 AM
I'm going to be honest- you guys SHOULD stop complaining. It isn't good, and if you are SG:1 fans than you wouldn't complain about every damn episode like it was the end of the world.

Well, excuse me. We're not cultist. SG1 isn't our god. And, people get more leeway in questioning holy figures than it seems they get criticizing a tv show around here.


It isn't healthy for everyone else on these boards when you are a negative person who cries over the smallest matters.

Healthy? Do you feel any sharp abdominal pains? Migraines? Uncontrollable urge to cry? Perhaps you hear voices?

Major Fischer looks for every little bad thing about the episode and calls the episode on it. That pretty much tells me that major Fischer does not like Stargate. If you are going to tear every damn episode to threads why watch the damn show?
Maybe Major Fischer just sees things that she feels aren't good. When someone says an episode is good, no one says they have to "look" for it. Why does it matter to anyone why Major Fisher or anybody else watches the show? You watch it. You like it. That should be enough.


You guys seem to forget this is possibly our last season, and all most of you can do is bash the season for the every little hole you can find. Why? To make yourselves feel better? To make people here who actually like the show feel bad and think that the season is horrible? You are influencing people to hate the show.

Whoo boy! Where to start with this. Lets see. So, freaking what if this may be our last season. People complaining doesn't make it the last season. People saying "Stargate is the greatest show, and I'm going to name my first born Teal'c, and change my name to Sam and dye my hair, and I looooove Stargate to widdle bitty pieces" isn't going to give it an extra season. And, lets see, why do people voice negative opinions? Well, of course! It must be because they need to "make themselves feel better" Hey, Major Fischer, were you feeling bad when you posted your opinion? Did voicing it suddenly give you a new found boost of confidence that you didn't have before? I never noticed voicing my opinion "made me feel better" or even that I needed to feel better. And, if people who like the season can suddenly change their minds because someone disagrees, obviously, they didn't have very strong opinions on how great it was in the first place. And, feel bad? Sorry. People disagree vehemently about Daniel, ship, Sam, Jack and Daniel, various episodes, and they never made me feel bad. And, they certainly never influenced me to change my mind. But, if negative opinions are that powerful, I think I'll be negative more often.


As I said before- I can nitpick every damn episode and make it sound like a ****ty episode. It doesn't ONLY work for season 8

And, if people voiced a negative opinion about other seasons, they'd get jumped on for that.


and I have seen episodes worse than these season 8 episodes. They are scattered all over the seasons. But none of them are as bad as Major Fischer makes them out to be.

In your opinion.

Sorry, I never signed up to be a Pollyanna. Stargate isn't my god. The people who make it are human are fallible and make mistakes. If I see something I feel is good, I'll say it. If I see something that I feel isn't, I'll say it. And, if people can't accept that, well, that's just too bad. And, if I'm mean for talking about an episode in any way I feel, tough cookies.

Mods feel free to chastise, edit, or delete if any of you deem me to be too harsh.

pettygrew
September 18th, 2004, 08:52 AM
ALso, I hated Jack's hesitation in making the big decision. I know he cares about his team, but he's a military officer and he's been in tough situations before and I really don't think he would have hesitated so long to make that decision. Yes, I know, it was all part of the plot, but it really seemed out-of-character.

And lastly, I thought it ended rather abruptly and anti-climatically. I think they would have (and should have) tried to take over the ship. Why didn't they? It would have been a good half-season-ender to have them go off in search of the remaining Trust people/person and go into hyper-drive. :p

I have to totally agree. It made me mad that Jack didn't give the word. He certainly didn't hestitate to shoot Daniel in an earlier episode, so why not give the word?

And yes, the episode ended rather blah. No cliff hanger.

I enjoyed the humor at the beginning of the episode and really liked the plot of making the Jaffa suspect the Tok'ra was releasing the poison. Do we know how long the poison will last on those planets? Didn't care for the Tok'ra operative. And they killed one of the best Jaffa warriors!

Going back to Affinity, it was nice Teal'c has an apartment while his Jaffa brothers have to live in tents.

pettygrew
September 18th, 2004, 09:00 AM
I'm going to be honest- you guys SHOULD stop complaining. It isn't good, and if you are SG:1 fans than you wouldn't complain about every damn episode like it was the end of the world.


We are discussing the episode. There will be good and not so good eps. That's expected. What I dislike most is when a plot doesn't make sense to the rest of the SG1 story arc.

I am truly missing Jack's interaction as a team member!

Dani347
September 18th, 2004, 09:16 AM
Anyway, to get to my feelings on the episode, I thought it was better than Covenant, Zero Hour, and Affinity, which are on my list for the worst 3 of season 8. Not quite as good as Avater, Icon, or Lockdown. So, like I said, a decent episode. Sam's outfit was jarring to me. I liked Daniel interrogating people. The British Area 51 guy looked so familiar, but I think he was just a type I've seen before, not an actual person I recognized. I saw no ship and nothing to be construed as ship, so that made me very happy. Teal'c's part didn't seem to fit at first, but it all tied in together nicely.

gange57
September 18th, 2004, 09:19 AM
First off, who ever makes the trailers is doing a huge disservice to Stargate. Anyone who saw the trailer knew the Stargate was going to be stolen. That makes the opening scene very anticlimatic. What could have been a "Holy Crap" moment in Stargate history just fizzles because too much is given away in the trailers.

As for the episode, I think it is on par with the rest of the season, just another above average episode. I loved the humor in this episode. The humor in the opening scene between Walter and the other technician was very well done, as was Daniel's "COFFEE? You didn't say anything about coffee! Just kidding." The action is picking up, which is good. However, the "SG1 as a SWAT team" is beginning to get a bit old. It feels like SG1 has spent more time this season acting as a SWAT team than battling the Gou'ald. Even someone like myself who isn't a nitpicker had to ask why is Carter wearing a shiny leather jacket in a raid? What, where all the lime green jackets taken? Despite all that, I enjoyed the episode. Unfortunately, we have a loooong FOUR MONTHS to wait for new episodes. :(

DarkQuee1
September 18th, 2004, 09:26 AM
Okay, I can see wondering why because he's non military (even though they had a civilian in charge of the whole operation for awhile, so a civilian having that responsibility doesn't seem so farfetched to me) but what does him being an archeologist have to do with it? It sounds like him being an archeologist is a pertinent reason why he can't be given the responsibility for investigating the gate.


It is. Are you seriously suggesting that in real life a military base would ever have an archaeologist doing interrogation on something that did not involve archaeology?? He's not trained to do interrogation. There's an art to it, and he knows nothing about it.

He got info because he let the guy keep his ill-gotten gains. A trained interrogator--and someone who was willing to get really mean--would probably have pointed out that the guy was facing the death penalty for treason, and would have gotten the info *and* let the govt keep the 2 million!

The show just doesn't have Daniel things for Daniel to do and they have to stick him into things that strain belief. It's not the character's fault; it's that the storyline has moved away from the early days.


J.

Major Fischer
September 18th, 2004, 09:48 AM
I'm going to be honest- you guys SHOULD stop complaining. It isn't good, and if you are SG:1 fans than you wouldn't complain about every damn episode like it was the end of the world.

It isn't healthy for everyone else on these boards when you are a negative person who cries over the smallest matters. Major Fischer looks for every little bad thing about the episode and calls the episode on it. That pretty much tells me that major Fischer does not like Stargate. If you are going to tear every damn episode to threads why watch the damn show?

I will respond to this because I am the one named, and I am offended. Just because I don't like an episode because I believe that it was ill thought, ill conceived, and badly executed does not mean that I am not a fan of the show.

Please do not judge my feelings about the show. I would love a 9th season. I have enjoyed episodes this season. I've enjoyed episodes that apparently no one else enjoyed :) I will, however, say something when something is done badly. Is it about my ego? No, not particularly. It's my opinion of one episode this season.

When I liked Icon and Covenant no one told me that I should stop saying so.

Dani347
September 18th, 2004, 10:06 AM
It is. Are you seriously suggesting that in real life a military base would ever have an archaeologist doing interrogation on something that did not involve archaeology?? He's not trained to do interrogation. There's an art to it, and he knows nothing about it.

I'm seriously suggesting that Daniel isn't confined to just doing archeology. If we're going for that argument, Daniel would be locked up in a lab, never doing anything but looking at artifacts and ruins which was never all he did even from the beginning of the show. Characters on shows serve multiple functions all the time. Mainly because the big stuff is always going to be given to the people in the main cast. Major storylines will never extend to one time characters or tetriary people. If that requires a suspension of disbelief, it's one that doesn't seem farfetched to me. Like I said, although I don't agree that a civillian can't do an interrogation, especially if a civillian can be in command of a military base, I do understand why someone else might feel that way. But, I never thought that Daniel's knowledge extended solely to archeology and that must eat sleep and breathe archeology and nothing but archeology.

Dani347
September 18th, 2004, 10:11 AM
First off, who ever makes the trailers is doing a huge disservice to Stargate. Anyone who saw the trailer knew the Stargate was going to be stolen. That makes the opening scene very anticlimatic. What could have been a "Holy Crap" moment in Stargate history just fizzles because too much is given away in the trailers.


Sadly, this is one thing in which Stargate is only as bad as other shows. I think people who make trailers forget that the purpose is to tease the audience into wanting more, not spilling everything about the episode before it airs.

greytop
September 18th, 2004, 10:13 AM
It made me mad that Jack didn't give the word. He certainly didn't hestitate to shoot Daniel in an earlier episode, so why not give the word?
Maybe because Sam was aboard the ship, is the reaseon he didn't give the word.

sacme
September 18th, 2004, 10:58 AM
She was on a covert operation and was wearing civilian clothes. Get over it already.

BYEThe NID/Trust know what Sam Carter looks like-- her wearing civilian clothes wouldn't fool them. And even if the catsuit rendered her unrecognizeable (a la Superman), the plan was never for her to interact with them. She was just there to storm the building-- therefore no need to wear anything different than the other soldiers.

Jamaica03
September 18th, 2004, 11:26 AM
The NID/Trust know what Sam Carter looks like-- her wearing civilian clothes wouldn't fool them. And even if the catsuit rendered her unrecognizeable (a la Superman), the plan was never for her to interact with them. She was just there to storm the building-- therefore no need to wear anything different than the other soldiers.

I really agree, the last few episodes when she is wearing civilian clothes on duty is really not working. In Affinity she wore jeans and big healed shoes while everyone else was in riot gear, and in Endgame it was the same thing. It just doesn't work well. Why are they separating her from everyone else?

Overall I thought it was a good episode though. I actually thought it was nice not to have a huge cliffhanger for the mid-season break, not showing what happened with the ship or the girl was enough for me.

Bobthespirit
September 18th, 2004, 11:57 AM
I agree that season 8 is probably the weakest season so far with the exception of New Order. I might put it above season 1, which doesn't really do much for me, because of say, Zero Hour and Avatar.

If they couldn't get Andersen on a full schedule maybe they should have made Lost City the finale, because they lost everything Hammond brought to the show as well as losing the SG1 team dynamic. At the very least they should have brought in another Jonas if they were going to do this, so they could still do offworld action episodes.

I liked the idea behind the plot for this episode, but...well..yeah, I agree, no suspense. I enjoyed, it, but it could have been so much better.

Dani347
September 18th, 2004, 12:06 PM
And even if the catsuit rendered her unrecognizeable (a la Superman)


Military garb: I'm Sam Carter Lt. Colonel and Astrophysicist.

Leather ensemble: I'm Muffy Incognito!

I'm Sam! No, I'm Muffy! No, Sam! You can't tell with my wonderful disguise!

Liebestraume
September 18th, 2004, 12:07 PM
Though far from excellent, Endgame was above par for the season. I like that it tied in nicely with some of the foregoing storylines -- the failed Earth/To'kar/Jaffa alliance and the ensuing mistrust, the remnants of the NID, and the various pieces of off-world technology. Clearly it was written by a sure hand with thorough knowledge of the Stargate universe; unfortunately, the way it failed to break new ground was another sign of the show showing its age.

The Trust, as the new villain, might have been more powerful than its predecessor, but at least some of the NID guys had a certain aura of patho that evoked sympathy. The Trust guys just seemed cardboard and down-right nasty. Quite stupid, too. because it made no sense to attack Jaffa soldiers (and hence showing its hand) when the system lords make much better strategic targets.

Which makes Jack's "tough choice" remark somewhat interesting to me. I am of the opinion that his earlier "indecision" goes beyond concern for his friends. He has shown to be capable of making tough choices, then as a colonel and now as a general (and as recent as in Zero Hour). No matter how clueless he may appear at times, Jack always thinks strategically when it comes to warfares. So, I wonder if he intentionally let that ship get away with the remaining "Goa'uld-poison pills." After all, Jack's top priority was to get the gate (and his friend) back on Earth. And, with only six capsules on board and without a long-range delivery system, the Trust guys would be forced to choose their new targets very carefully.

Major Fischer
September 18th, 2004, 12:10 PM
I'm Sam! No, I'm Muffy! No, Sam! You can't tell with my wonderful disguise!

*cough* *choking on my diet coke* *laughing so hard that I'm crying*

jyh
September 18th, 2004, 12:10 PM
From AlphaBlu:

"air-force officer on a covert operation and therefore was wearing civilian clothing as not to give away her position or rank. "

Somehow I don't think most civilians go around with sidearms strapped to their thighs and followed around by heavily-armed swat members! :P I'm one of those who think Carter was inappopriately dressed on both raids, but esp. the 2nd one. But you'll notice I expressed it as my opinion. Obviously there is no black/white, correct/incorrect way to dress for a raid. But if the writers are curious as to viewers' thoughts on these episodes and what they can do or avoid in the future (which I'm sure they are), they'll be sure to find them on this forum!

However, I definitely agree with you that people should say "in my opinion..." or "I think..." But as we all know, that's not gonna be done all the time by everyone. I guess the work-around is to know that EVERYTHING written on this board is an opinion. (unless quoted from an actual source such as an AF manual or scientific textbook, etc.)

But to me, an opinion is an opinion: you state it and move on. There's no point in arguing with someone who disagrees, or in calling them names... you'll never change their opinion that way, any more than they'll change yours by calling you names. Yes, it's infuriating sometimes that some people can be so bull-headed (especially when they're WRONG! ha ha! that's a joke, people) but arguing doesn't accomplish anything useful. What can I say, I'm a non-confrontationalist.

Liebestraume
September 18th, 2004, 12:16 PM
The NID/Trust know what Sam Carter looks like-- her wearing civilian clothes wouldn't fool them. And even if the catsuit rendered her unrecognizeable (a la Superman), the plan was never for her to interact with them. She was just there to storm the building-- therefore no need to wear anything different than the other soldiers.
I agree. But she looked pretty in that outfit, so it's good enough for me. :D

(unlike that pink oversized-houndstooth number she donned in Affinity ...)

norriski
September 18th, 2004, 12:55 PM
OK, let me start by saying that I've only read the fist 20 or so posts on this episode so if I rehash something that was completely discussed I'm sorry...
One thing that I noticed in a few of the post I read was people mentioning Daniel in the role of military interrogator, that some something that I noticed as well and it got me thinking....has anyone else noticed that it seems that since Jack took over the SCG Daniel's position is also a little different? What I mean is it seems that Daniel also got a promotion at the same time Jack and Sam did, maybe we don't see it cause he doesn't wear a rank insigna, but there just seems to be something a little different, and it was most apparent in this episode, with his being the one conducting the interviews with Walter and the other guy, and his involvement with the area 51 guy. One thing in that scene that really pointed it out to me was at a gesture Daniel sent the airmen out of the room. Then when Daniel came up with his insane plan, it was almost like an old Gen. Hammond/Col O'Neill scene (almost)...Now all of that to say this....it's got me thinking just what is Daniels role in the SGC, we know that when Dr. Weir was in charge, he held Daniel close and he had major influence on things that happened...we know by Weir being in "command" at Civilianone thing that it is possible that someday the SCG could again come under cilvilian leadership....so it is possible that someday Daniel could be in charge of the SGC? It's just a thought, and to me he is the most logical choice....Now back to present time, (in SG1 would) at least to me it seems like they've mirriored the Gen. Hammond / Jack command relationship in Jack and Daniel now. Yes, it's different because Jack is still well Jack, but it seems to me that the discussions that Gen. Hammond may have had with Jack as his 2IC, Jack has with Daniel and not Carter...I don't know maybe I'm reading to much into it and you all will just think I'm nuts....

One other comment, the discussion at the end with Jack and SG1 about his not ordering the Prometheus to fire, knowing his people were on the ship, to me it was another point in which Gen. O'Neill really "got" what he'd put Gen. Hammond through for all those years. The fact that command decisions are never easy and second guessing can always come up with a different answer, I think Jack saw durring those moments that next time his decision may have to be different and the outcome could be devistating, it's something Jack will have to deal with...

OK I'll shut up now, sorry for rambling (and for my terrible spelling :o )

pettygrew
September 18th, 2004, 02:12 PM
One thing that I noticed in a few of the post I read was people mentioning Daniel in the role of military interrogator

I could see Daniel making a report about the missing Stargate, but I felt it was out of place for him to be interrogating the British prisoner. Daniel does not carry the authority to bargain. Especially to say they would ignore the $2 million. That role would have been more for the General. In Smoke and Mirrors, it was General Hammond that negotiated with the spy. It would have been more appropriate for Jack to deal with the prisoner and not Daniel.

Something that's becoming more noticeable is the lack of military personnel at the SGC. I haven't seen multiple personnel since Zero Hour. It would appear the only personnel left on base is Walter, Siler, Jack, Daniel, Sam, and Teal'c.

AlphaBlu
September 18th, 2004, 04:18 PM
Take that back! Everyone loves Window Of Opprotunity.....
Yeah, I was about to say. Is there some weird person out there who didn't like WoO?

BYE

DarkQuee1
September 18th, 2004, 04:28 PM
I'm seriously suggesting that Daniel isn't confined to just doing archeology. If we're going for that argument, Daniel would be locked up in a lab, never doing anything but looking at artifacts and ruins which was never all he did even from the beginning of the show. Characters on shows serve multiple functions all the time. Mainly because the big stuff is always going to be given to the people in the main cast. Major storylines will never extend to one time characters or tetriary people. If that requires a suspension of disbelief, it's one that doesn't seem farfetched to me. Like I said, although I don't agree that a civillian can't do an interrogation, especially if a civillian can be in command of a military base, I do understand why someone else might feel that way. But, I never thought that Daniel's knowledge extended solely to archeology and that must eat sleep and breathe archeology and nothing but archeology.


I don't think Daniel's knowledge extends *solely* to archaeology, but I do think that it extends to related areas--and *not* to interrogation techniques. It made no sense except that they needed something for Daniel to do. The initial questionning of Walter and his cohort would better have been done by someone to whom they answer, ie a superior, the person who writes their eval etc, because there is a question as to whether or not they were negligent in their actions. Or else, by the base security chief--and if really doesn't matter if that would be a "tertiary" character since (a) it was a short scene, (b) we had a known character in the scene, Walter, and (c) it would have made more sense.

As to questionning the suspect, that was clearly beyond Daniel's area of expertise. In any other year, it would have been Jack or Hammond doing it. There is simply no way that, in real life, they would have had Daniel doing it. OTOH, if you take away all of the stuff in that ep that wasn't in Daniel's area (interrogation, special ops etc), you are left with nothing for Daniel to do.


J.

DarkQuee1
September 18th, 2004, 04:37 PM
One thing that I noticed in a few of the post I read was people mentioning Daniel in the role of military interrogator, that some something that I noticed as well and it got me thinking....has anyone else noticed that it seems that since Jack took over the SCG Daniel's position is also a little different? What I mean is it seems that Daniel also got a promotion at the same time Jack and Sam did, maybe we don't see it cause he doesn't wear a rank insigna, but there just seems to be something a little different, and it was most apparent in this episode, with his being the one conducting the interviews with Walter and the other guy, and his involvement with the area 51 guy. One thing in that scene that really pointed it out to me was at a gesture Daniel sent the airmen out of the room. Then when Daniel came up with his insane plan, it was almost like an old Gen. Hammond/Col O'Neill scene (almost)...Now all of that to say this....it's got me thinking just what is Daniels role in the SGC, we know that when Dr. Weir was in charge, he held Daniel close and he had major influence on things that happened...we know by Weir being in "command" at Civilianone thing that it is possible that someday the SCG could again come under cilvilian leadership....so it is possible that someday Daniel could be in charge of the SGC? It's just a thought, and to me he is the most logical choice....Now back to present time, (in SG1 would) at least to me it seems like they've mirriored the Gen. Hammond / Jack command relationship in Jack and Daniel now. Yes, it's different because Jack is still well Jack, but it seems to me that the discussions that Gen. Hammond may have had with Jack as his 2IC, Jack has with Daniel and not Carter...I don't know maybe I'm reading to much into it and you all will just think I'm nuts....


I can't agree that there has been any change in Daniel's position. The problem is twofold: (1) RDA's reduced schedule, which keeps him from doing stuff that either Jack (in the old days) or Hammond would have done, and (2) the fact that they have no "Daniel things" for Daniel to do. Other than translating for Jack in TLC, when's the last time they needed Daniel's archeological knowledge or for him to do any real translating? The storyline has moved past the need for an archaeologist/linguist on SG-1; they simply don't do much exploring anymore.

So, in order to have a part for Daniel and to take up the slack for RDA's/Jack's absence, they are moving Daniel into things that Jack would have done, because there's nowhere else to put him that would give him any screen time. He's becoming Jack-lite. Even the way he solved the problem on the ship--blasting the crystals--was pure Jack (in fact, Jack did it in Revelations).

Problem is, it's not believable that this base would, in reality, use Daniel that way. But then, in real life, it wouldn't be a concern that Daniel have screen time, and so he would be concentrating on the archaeological finds or linguistic problems that other teams were coming up with (in fact, he might very well be spending a lot of time with teams that were doing pure exploration).

The second problem is that it removes Daniel from having a different perspective. He's playing soldier so much now that it no longer rings true to say that he brings a civilian or academic eye to a situation.


J.

DarkQuee1
September 18th, 2004, 04:41 PM
Something occurred to me in thinking about the ep. I was initially unhappy at Jack's seeming indecisiveness, esp. as we've seen him make the tough decision before between a member of his team and the larger good. SE, Entity, as examples.

But I realized that there was another consideration: the gate was on board. If they blew up the ship, there was a chance that the gate might be damaged or destroyed, or sent hurtling toward the sun or something that rendered it inoperable. Earth would have been royally screwed had that occurred. He had to give Sam and Daniel every chance to get off the ship with the gate.

J.

Zoser
September 18th, 2004, 04:50 PM
I don't know what I expected, but this wasn't it. The whole ep seemed disjointed as if they were trying to cram too many storylines in it.

First, Jack wasn't in it enough and he didn't seem to be concerned about Sam being missing. What was up with that comment at the end? :eek:
Why didn't we see an angry kicka$$ Jack do the interrogation. And too why didn't we see a groveling Jack talking to the Prez. - that might have been funny


Why was Daniel asking the questions at the beginning? He's not even military and an anthropologist to boot, why put him in charge of the investigation of the missing gate?See above - I thought Daniel was an archeologist!


Strange wardrobe choices. Sam wearing the top of a Catwoman costume. What happened to the regular black outfits when they're defying orders? (ie. Within the Serpent's Grasp) There also seemed to be some uniform confusion. Jack in blue. Daniel in green. Oh, and we almost got through one ep without Teal'c in sleeveless. Almost.

Could of been worse. Could of been a two-parter.

Lisa Michelle Could have been a cliff hanger. Should have ended before we knew what happened to Sam and company on the Al'kesk. And tell me why they didn't take the ship. It would have made O'Neill happy.

Shivan
September 18th, 2004, 04:50 PM
I would like to add that maybe I was wrong at jumping at people or saying some of the stuff I have said. But I would like to say one more thing.

This episode of SG:1 was fantastic. I can't understand how anyone can put it down. Regardless of enemy structure or development. It still served.

Zoser
September 18th, 2004, 05:00 PM
Jack is the General and Carter's in charge of SG-1.

DJ
I don't think either one has assumed their new position.

majorsal
September 18th, 2004, 05:05 PM
Loved how sam really can beat up a bloke with both hands tied behind her back

Me too! :p And here Daniel was fighting with all his limbs, and Sam was able to to kick the crap out of her opponent with only her feet! Ha! :p



..but why does the only english guy we've seen who isn't a gou'ald have to be a whimpering idiotic sell-out?

Well... I thought the guy was cute! :p And I mean the actor. He kinda reminded me of a cross between Dudley Moore and some singer I can't remember the name of.



Why did sam guide them away from that particular planet? and come to that, why didn't sam try the wrist device..the fact she has naquadah in her blood seems to be pretty much forgotten.

Now that was something I noticed right away. When cute English scientist guy mentioned about naquadah being needed, I expect Sam to use it to her advantage. And then nothing was done. Wonder why?



actually, jack didn't come off too well..when the commander of the prometheus questioned his order, he should have asserted his authority, not stood there staring into the distance, practically begging the commander 'just give him a moment, ok'


I kept expecting Jack to say, 'give me a minute', so why didn't he? It almost seemed out of character for Jack to be having so much probs making this decision, but maybe this will be one of the factors if Jack decides to retire. Maybe not so much that he can't take it, but that he doesn't want to take it. But to be fair, I've seen Hammond hesitate too, and all that was needed was giving Sg1 a moment or two more. Which is what Jack did, and which was all that was needed to save the day, his friends, and the gate. But it all could have went horribly wrong, so... so maybe all of this was going through Jack's mind at the same time, and his final decision was just plain luck. I think I just debated this topic with myself, because I was all over the place. :p


[...] daniel's character has really grown, and i like it,

I don't know how I feel about Daniel conducting the interrogation. He seems out of his element. It should have been Jack to me. It just felt odd, and even though Sam is military and has more experience in these things, I would have felt a bit hesitant on her doing it too. Maybe Davis doing it???



i forgot to add..really really good to see a stakeout and a raid that didn't involve pete interfering in some way!

:p


Sally :D

Dani347
September 18th, 2004, 05:29 PM
Walter is a tetriary character. As an "amusing" teaser, they might have him alone with another one time character, but for a main scene, someone in the main cast would have been there. He's helped broker treaties, he's been on the front lines of SG1 from the start. The only time he was just doing archeological tasks or tasks that related directly to archeology was the episode where Hammond was forced to retire, and the new military commander said the archeologist had to be tucked away somewhere. From the start Daniel's job has extended to more than just the narrow confines of archeology and linguistics. He obviously has some authority, or he wouldn't be addressed as "Sir" He has a title that would be appropriate for someone to use if they were just being polite. Dr. Jackson would have sufficed. You don't just call anyone "sir" And, is it any more farfetched than a civilian who didn't even know the Stargate existed not too long before being in charge of the whole operation? Weir had no authority prior to being appointed and she had less knowledge about what was going on than anyone there. And yet, she was in charge of the whole kit and caboodle.

Questioning his technique? Saying he didn't do the interrogation right? Yeah. Saying he can never assume any more responsibilities beyond archeology or linguistics or that which leads directly to said topics in 7 (give or take ascending) years, no, I don't get. I'd never expect Daniel to lead a military operation if Sam was there, in aound mind and able bodied. Or him to organize a group of Jaffa while Teal'c stood in the background. Because it would be ridiculous for him to do something when a main cast member (or important recurring cast member -like Janet- no surgery for Daniel, either. Performing, I mean) has already been established as being an expert in. But, new responsibilities? I have no problem believing that at some point he'd assume them.


He kinda reminded me of a cross between Dudley Moore

That's it! I knew I hadn't actually seen him before, but he looked familar. It was because he reminded me of Dudley Moore.

Im_just_guessing
September 18th, 2004, 05:38 PM
Did anyone else think they heard part of the Attack of the Clones soundtrack in this episode?

I think it was when Teal'c and that other Jaffa were at the Alpha Site.


Anyone? Im not crazy am I?

Zoser
September 18th, 2004, 05:50 PM
Maybe because Sam was aboard the ship, is the reaseon he didn't give the word.
Maybe he didn't want to loose the Stargate either.

majorsal
September 18th, 2004, 05:53 PM
Apparently; it was send out last month on the the fifth Monday. <G> I said "appears" to be. And it does look that way to me. So, it makes me happy and I'm sticking to it. :D

Dana Jeanne

Oh, okay. :p

Sally :D

keshou
September 18th, 2004, 06:04 PM
Something occurred to me in thinking about the ep. I was initially unhappy at Jack's seeming indecisiveness, esp. as we've seen him make the tough decision before between a member of his team and the larger good. SE, Entity, as examples.

But I realized that there was another consideration: the gate was on board. If they blew up the ship, there was a chance that the gate might be damaged or destroyed, or sent hurtling toward the sun or something that rendered it inoperable. Earth would have been royally screwed had that occurred. He had to give Sam and Daniel every chance to get off the ship with the gate.
If they lost the gate can they get another gate and reprogram the point of origin on it? Haven't they moved the Alpha site gate a couple of times? Sorry, not remembering my geeky gate stuff very well.

If so I would think the Alpha site would contact the Asgard if they couldn't contact Earth for any length of time and the Asgard would come calling with the gate from the Alpha site. Or the Prometheus would be repaired to go pick up the Alpha site gate.

Losing the gate would be very bad, at least temporarily, and I'm sure Jack wanted to give Sam and Daniel every chance to save the day. The hesitation just felt more personal to me. As if he really couldn't pull the trigger. The tag scene - "tough choice" - also spoke to Jack's frame of mind and it seems like this might be leading somewhere. Or not. :)

..

DownFallAngel
September 18th, 2004, 06:08 PM
Actually, as long as any gate was the pyramind/prayer to sun symbol on it, as long as it was on Earth, the gate would match all needed specifications to work for us, as the PoO.

So loosing a gate, and then placing another one, would be fine.

Thats what they did in Small Victories, they replaced the Giza/Praying to sun symbol gate with the Antarctica gate. Because the Antarctic gate had the Giza symbol, the SGC had the gate up and running next day.

keshou
September 18th, 2004, 06:18 PM
Actually, as long as any gate was the pyramind/prayer to sun symbol on it, as long as it was on Earth, the gate would match all needed specifications to work for us, as the PoO.

So loosing a gate, and then placing another one, would be fine.
Thanks. I thought you could probably swipe a gate from an abandoned planet and use it on Earth but I wasn't totally positive.

aaobuttons
September 18th, 2004, 06:21 PM
I was unimpressed with the episode, for the many reason listed above. Mainly I was just expecting more and didn't get it. It wasn't bad, it just wasn't mid-season finale worthy in my opinion.

zats
September 18th, 2004, 06:22 PM
This one was...fine. Not overly good, and definitely not a cliffhanger.

What was good:
a. Sam kicking butt. I especially liked the bit where she kicked the two goons into uncomfortable sleepiness and then went, "Someone want to untie me?". Made a great point.
b. The chemical weapons. That was new for the show (aside from that bit in "Summit" and "Last Stand"). Good to see some new variables to spice things up. But just out of curiousity, wouldn't at least some of the rebel Jaffa have been on tretonin? And what about M'zel? Shouldn't he have died in the first attack?
c. The 'gate being stolen. Really cool, actually. I mean, you think of people swiping computers and so on and so forth, but a Stargate? Lovely!
d. Davis and the other Chevron Guy with the coffee gig. Brilliant setup, almost overdramatic but still funny.
e. Daniel and the coffee gag. ("No, I'm just kidding.")(or something to that general effect). Coming from the coffeeholic of the universe...

What wasn't so good:
a. Costumes, esp. Sam's black pleather top. I mean...come on. I can understand trying to appeal to the "male geeks ages 16-34 who can't get dates" audiance, but hello, there are others out here. (My apologies to those who fit in the above catagory I can't diss you too much; who else would fix my computer? Sorry, just kidding. I love ya, geeks.)
b. Jack. He just seemed...grumpy. Off. Weird. Quite frankly, in a lousy mood. And I didn't get the part at the end, when Daniel said that maybe he should have blown up the Trust's ship and Jack sort of muttered "tough" and walked off. Were we supposed to have inferred something there? Or did something end up on the cutting room floor?

Overall, a good ep, but not what'd I'd've chose for an end-of-midseason.

Jonisa
September 18th, 2004, 06:48 PM
Other than translating for Jack in TLC, when's the last time they needed Daniel's archeological knowledge or for him to do any real translating? The storyline has moved past the need for an archaeologist/linguist on SG-1; they simply don't do much exploring anymore.


In New Order, Daniel translated the message coming from the Goa'uld that they were going to attack earth and stopped Ameratsu and Yu from going through the gate just in time. In Affinity, Daniel's unique knowledge of Ancient was a key part of the plot. (Okay, major screwup there on his part IMO, but that's for another discussion. ;)) He translated and spoke Russian in Lockdown, although that wasn't an important plot point. In Avatar...he got shot a lot. Okay, that has nothing to do with his linguistic skills, but it does seem to be a talent of his lately. :p

Still, I see what you're saying. There isn't as much archealogy and mythology as there was in earlier seasons, and I miss it. I love archealogistDaniel and linguistDaniel and civilianDaniel and I never want to see him get too military.

However, I don't see why Daniel's role as an archealogist precludes him from doing what he did in this episode. He's a very intelligent and competent guy, he can learn and grow. I'd hate to put him in one box and leave him there, it isn't fair to the character. He's been going on raids with SG-1 back since in the first season, and I think the reason his interrogating British guy didn't bother me is that they needed someone with comprehensive knowledge of the SGC and all of the aliens we've met up to this point. There are very few candidates. Jack obviously trusted Daniel enough for him to do this.

Dani raised a good point that Weir, a civilian with no knowledge whatsoever of the program was chosen to run the SGC, a military operation. Why couldn't Daniel, who's been with the program from the beginning, interrogate a prisoner? He's been part of lots of negotiations, is very verbal, can think on his feet, and knows as much about the SGC as anyone. Yes, others might have more experience, but it doesn't mean Daniel wouldn't do a good job.

I do think Walter and the other guy should probably have been questioned by someone military. That was played for laughs, though, and I think MS and the other actors did a good job there.

I guess Daniel's role in this episode is one of those things where it bothers some people and doesn't bother others, and that's cool. :D I definitely see where he's doing things that Jack would have done a few years ago, but I don't see the problem. Why can't Daniel have additional skills outside of his academic ones? He'd be dead for real by now if he hadn't learned to handle a gun. I wouldn't want to see Daniel become GI Joe, but I can take a little bit of ActionJackson as long as we don't completely lose the civilian and his unique perspective. We've seen enough of sensitiveDaniel this year to make me feel this isn't the case.

I think Sam's catsuit bothered me more than anything else in this episode. It was unnecessary and took me out of the flow of the episode because I was distracted by the outfit. The woman is gorgeous, she doesn't need clothing like that to look good. She looked fantastic in jackets and combat boots for years. :)

mathwizard
September 18th, 2004, 06:51 PM
Now that was something I noticed right away. When cute English scientist guy mentioned about naquadah being needed, I expect Sam to use it to her advantage. And then nothing was done. Wonder why?


The device also requires "specific goauld DNA". :rolleyes:

Skydiver
September 18th, 2004, 07:05 PM
One thing that I noticed in a few of the post I read was people mentioning Daniel in the role of military interrogator, that some something that I noticed as well and it got me thinking....has anyone else noticed that it seems that since Jack took over the SCG Daniel's position is also a little different?

____

I think all of thier positions are a little different.

Sam, Daniel and Teal'c seem to be more of executive staff than simple sgc members.

Sam seems to be a liasion between jack and scientists, same with daniel, except his scientists seem to be the ones more like him, the 'softer' sciences of archaeology, languages, etc.

teal'c.....well teal'c is with the jaffa, like always <G>. guess he's been busy setting up housekeeping

Skydiver
September 18th, 2004, 07:13 PM
I could see Daniel making a report about the missing Stargate, but I felt it was out of place for him to be interrogating the British prisoner. <snip>. It would have been more appropriate for Jack to deal with the prisoner and not Daniel.

Something that's becoming more noticeable is the lack of military personnel at the SGC. I haven't seen multiple personnel since Zero Hour. It would appear the only personnel left on base is Walter, Siler, Jack, Daniel, Sam, and Teal'c.


yeah. I think that was what rubbed me wrong with that scene. It's one that we would have seen Sam done, but she wasn't there. I'm not up on military protocol, but it seems odd for a civilian to be taking the statement of two military folks. In fact, it probably should have been someone from JAG, or someone impartial...even jack. We've certainly seen hammond conducting such interviews in the past.

(and i should say, both scenes, interviewing walter and the other guy AND interrogating the weasel)

It's almost like:
couldn't afford another extra to do it. daniel was already there, so he did it

jack couldn't work that day, so daniel got his scene

it was something tossed in there because the eps was short.

Daniel could have been there, certainly. But to be leading the interviews was a bit off. This is something that Major Davis could have done, or even that other colonel from SG-3

It just rang wrong and was as improper as back in Redemption, when jack was reading- and left- confidential personnel files in the commissary

Dani347
September 18th, 2004, 07:13 PM
From Jonisa:


It was unnecessary and took me out of the flow of the episode because I was distracted by the outfit. The woman is gorgeous, she doesn't need clothing like that to look good. She looked fantastic in jackets and combat boots for years.


Exactly. If Sam was going in disguise, it made for a bad one, because it made her stand out. But, i think the real reason was to sex her up, which is insulting. AT is attractive already without "help"

From zats:

Jack sort of muttered "tough" and walked off.
He said, "yeah, tough choice." Which I took to mean, "Like I regret saving my team." I also don't believe it was because of Sam being on the ship, not as a separate concern, but because both Sam and Daniel were there. I don't think he knew Teal'c was on board, or he'd be included in it, of course.

Jonisa
September 18th, 2004, 07:36 PM
I think all of thier positions are a little different.

Sam, Daniel and Teal'c seem to be more of executive staff than simple sgc members.

Sam seems to be a liasion between jack and scientists, same with daniel, except his scientists seem to be the ones more like him, the 'softer' sciences of archaeology, languages, etc.

teal'c.....well teal'c is with the jaffa, like always <G>. guess he's been busy setting up housekeeping

I read an interview some time ago with one of the producers (no idea which one anymore), where he said that SG-1, because of their experience, will be more consultants or trouble-shooters than a regular SG team that goes through the gate. I think that has been very evident so far this season. They seem more like Jack's advisers than just another team.

Personally, I don't have a problem with that, it seems a natural evolution, although I do miss the exploration and hope to see at least a little more the rest of the season. But it is definitely a change.

AlphaBlu
September 18th, 2004, 11:51 PM
...Sam wearing the top of a Catwoman costume...I don't care what anyone's opinion is, but blatant exagerations in a sad attempt to prove a point are very, very bad LMichelle. A tight leather jacket has hardly 'the top of the Catwoman costume'. The top she had on in Chimera was more revealing...

BYE

jyh
September 19th, 2004, 04:43 AM
But I realized that there was another consideration: the gate was on board. If they blew up the ship, there was a chance that the gate might be damaged or destroyed

J.


I still think the GREATER danger was in the Trust people getting away with the gate. Once they took their ship into hyperdrive, we'd never see it again, and what's worse, the BAD GUYS would have it. To me, the better bet was to try to damage the ship w/o destroying it (hopefully), which would at least give us a chance to recover the gate. (Remember, they couldn't necessarily count on Carter & Daniel... they should have proceeded on the assumption that Sam/Daniel might not be successful. Besides, a hit from the Prometheus might be all the 'break' Sam & Daniel need to get the best of their captors.)

Oh, and they should DEFINITELY have tried to take control of the whole ship!!

AlphaBlu
September 19th, 2004, 06:11 AM
Maybe I missed it, but did they even know how many people were on board the Al'kesh?

BYE

Albion
September 19th, 2004, 06:22 AM
Well, I loved it. Every minute of it. Chalk this one up to yet another great episode in what's developing into a terrific season.

I thought it was fast-paced, exciting and well done from all concerned.

Loved the teaser - it's been such a delight to see Walter out from behind the console this season and Gary does it so well, his comic timing is spot on. The coffee joke was funny, but what really had me LOLing was Daniel's 'Boy, I'd hate to be the guy who has to explain this to the President.' Oblivious for the moment to the fact that that was Jack. Jack's look in response was priceless, as was Daniel's flinching back when he caught it. ROTFL.

Loved the scene between Jack and Daniel over going to the ship. Daniel's winning argument being, "Yeah, who'd I learn that from?' just tickled me. And once again Silar comes in with the subtle, understated comic moment with his response to Daniel's "Any better ideas?"

I had no problem with most of the nitpicks mentioned by other posters. I didn't think it was out of place for Daniel to be taking a statement from Walter and the other technician. That just seemed to me to be all Jack and typical of his MO. Once he reports this officially to the President, Woolseys are going to be swarming all over the SGC - all of them with their own political and military agenda and they might not necessarily think they need to give Jack everything he needs to know. It doesn't strike me as odd then that Jack would get someone he trusts to give him all the facts to get statements first and let him get a heads up on where they stand. And who else would he trust with that but a member of his team?

Still got no explanation for Carter's choice of clothing. But it bugged me less than I thought it would prior to the episode. Before I saw it, it struck me as really odd. Watching the episode, I found I really didn't care too much - I was just caught up in the excitement of it all by that point and it was relegated to a very minor puzzlement. Also it wasn't as tight and shiny as it looked in the screencaps, which probably helped. :D

Shame the Tok'ra had to die - she was a great character and very well played I thought by the actress. I also enjoyed the Area 51 doctor. In fact, all of the guest characters this week were beautifully done.

Watching Jack's indecision at the end, I too was struck by the fact that it's not only SG1 he might lose, but the gate. Which surely had to be taken into account. Though I suspect unofficially it certainly wasn't what was foremost on Jack's mind, even if it was an official consideration. And I took his "Tough choice" comment at the end to be intended to be deeply ironic. IOW, it was no choice at all and there was never any question of which he'd take.

Unlike other posters, I didn't even get any great sense of 'Jack lack' this week. I missed him a little in the middle, but thought he was well-used for a change when he was on screen and he was in it enough to satisfy me. He had some great scenes - the one with Daniel mentioned above especially.

Nor did I see any problem with 'Rambo Daniel' as someone described him. The man has been a part of this program, faced danger and death countless times offworld, for eight years now. I'd be extraordinarily surprised if he hadn't picked up a few tips here and there by now. Like everyone and everything on Stargate he's evolved and grown through the years. He's learned, added to his skills, changed his pov in some respects, but he's still at the core the same person. That aspect of the show is something I really appreciate and enjoy. I'd hate for Daniel to have stagnated and not moved on from S1.

And, oh, I felt for him when he realised that losing the Stargate and everything else that had transpired had been achieved through his translation of the glyphs he handed over to the Trust. And how much more terrible for him is that going to be when he realises it also lead to the deaths of millions of Jaffa?

So...conclusion...a huge thumbsup from this viewer. Another favourite episode I'll watch more than once.

Albion :)

keshou
September 19th, 2004, 06:28 AM
I read an interview some time ago with one of the producers (no idea which one anymore), where he said that SG-1, because of their experience, will be more consultants or trouble-shooters than a regular SG team that goes through the gate. I think that has been very evident so far this season. They seem more like Jack's advisers than just another team.

Personally, I don't have a problem with that, it seems a natural evolution, although I do miss the exploration and hope to see at least a little more the rest of the season. But it is definitely a change.
SG-1 does seem to have become Jack's unofficial "kitchen cabinet". It just seems odd to see the characters in different roles at times.

Of course it's not the first time. I recall Teal'c interrogating the guy in "Smoke and Mirrors" but they were operating outside the "usual jurisdictional channels" at the time. Teal'c didn't even have to say anything and the guy caved - Jack should make him do all the interrogations!

It might have been a smoother transition if when Jack first took over the SGC he talked to the team and told them:

"Listen guys - I trust all of you more than anyone else on Earth. I'm new at this and I'm going to be relying on you to help me in ways you might not imagine. I know what you are all capable of so stay ready."

Then at least we'd have a set-up to view these changes as more of a natural evolution - rather than an evolution forced because RDA's not available to be in a scene.

Anne
September 19th, 2004, 06:39 AM
Hello.
Sorry but could anybody tell me, what Daniel said to Jack at the end in the Gateroom ?!
Because he said it so quickly I didn't get it.
I come from Germany so it's sometimes a little bit difficult to understand Michael Shanks. ;)

Albion
September 19th, 2004, 06:47 AM
"In retrospect, perhaps it would have been better to have blown up the ship."

From memory, might be a bit of paraphrasing in there, but that was the gist of it.

Actually, having just gone back and rewatched the end, I think I have to change my opinion on what Jack meant by "Tough choice". I think he was somewhat sadly reflecting the fact that now that his rank and responsibilities have changed it's a harder choice than it used to be and he was letting them be aware of that. That things are more difficult for him now than perhaps they might appreciate. And letting them know too that perhaps he wouldn't always be able to choose them in the future. Perhaps he'd only just realised that himself during the moments in which he was being forced to choose. And, really, he never had to make the choice in the end - events took it out of his hands and fortunately it ended up without too many tears.

As someone noted earlier - rather poignant.

Albion :)

Anne
September 19th, 2004, 07:03 AM
Thanks. Now it all makes sense. ;)

Sam_o_Neill
September 19th, 2004, 07:10 AM
My thoughts on Endgame........

I didn't think this was a good episode to leave us with before the 3 month break, I was expecting it to be quite action packed but it wasn't really :S

I admit it was a good episode and I found it very entertaining but it just wasn't right for a mid-season finale episode :S IMHO

Sam's leather suit thing didn't seem right to me at all, she's going on a mission and she is wearing civilian clothes? And would sam even wear a leather cat-suit thing off duty anyway??
This episode felt really Jack-Lite to me, I think TPTB have done a great job so far of keeping Jack in season 8 so much, This season I haven't missed Jack one bit apart from Endgame of course. and I do feel that Jack could of shown a bit more emotion when he found out Sam was missing, he only started showing that he was worried when both Sam and Daniel were on the ship. but RDA did a great job showing how worried Jack was and how difficult the choice was whether to blow up the alkesh or not. and the end was nice :)

We still haven't see Sam's engagement ring which is weird seeing as when you agree to marry someone you should be really happy and want to wear the ring all the time....;)

I liked Walter and the other technician in this and Daniel was fun too :)

I rate this episode about 6/10,enjoyable but not good for a mid-season finale. I haven't got the suspence now, so there is nothing that is keeping me desperately waiting for January...apart from 'Gemini' 'Threads and the Finale :)

Albion
September 19th, 2004, 07:19 AM
We still haven't see Sam's engagement ring which is weird seeing as when you agree to marry someone you should be really happy and want to wear the ring all the time....

Not necessarily. My husband - a firefighter - has never worn his wedding ring at work for safety reasons. There's just too much risk of it being caught on something when he's at a callout.

I would imagine, given Carter's hectic SGC lifestyle that she may not wear her rings for similar safety reasons.

Albion :)

Teal'c
September 19th, 2004, 07:23 AM
Brilliant, brilliant episode! :P

I loved Walter and the other technician. "Have you ever wanted to dial up the Stargate and take a look around another planet, just for a few minutes?" Walter is very, very serious about his job :P

The Asgard transporters were good. It finally explains why in Lost City Anubis didn't beam in 50 Kull Warriors to Atlantus or why he didn't beam Jack into space :P And did anyone else notice that in 5 of the 10 episodes in the first half of Season 8 there's been Asgard transporters? :P New Order Part 1, New Order Part 2, Affinity, Covenant and Endgame...

Also...

WE SAW INSIDE AN AL'KESH!!!! :D

Finally :D But now I'm in withdrawl... :P

muffo
September 19th, 2004, 08:44 AM
I have read with great interest all of the opinions posted on Endgame. I agree with many of them.

1. the episode was good, but I think it missed greatness. It just didn't have enough action. Most of the episode was tight and technically well done, but it was not as well thought out as it could have been. It seems like no one is asking questions at the 1st script reading.

A. The ending was not as exciting as it could have been. Most of you have objected to Jack not making the "hard choice" to attack the ship, but I'll give him the benefit of waiting for the team to pull off "the mission" before firing. Lord knows, Hammond gave SG1 extra minutes from time to time. My opinion of how it should have ended was that Carter and Daniel should have blown up as much stuff as they could---a few charges of C4 would have taken out the missles, the gas, and the computers that had the planets listed for destruction. The ship could have gotten away, but its power to commit mass murder would be gone, at least for the time being. This would also have provided more action.

B. One thing most of you objected to was Daniel being an inquisitor. It didn't seem to bother me. I just saw him as Jack's personel choice for getting to the heart of the matter quickly.

C. Carter's clothers were a problem for me also. Just not military. No wonder she didn't set any C4 charges---she couldn't carry any because of her "club" clothing.

D. I'm glad this was not a cliff hanger to be continued in January.

E. The humor was good. Enjoyed all of it including the "I'm glad I'm not the one who has to tell the President....".

2. In my opinion, for this episode to have been great, we needed to see SG1 as "winning" in the end. The only thing they did was maintain the status quo--they got the gate back, but after terrible things had been done. They survived, but they didn't advance the knowledge about the Rogue element. We still don't know anymore about the structure or leadership than we did before. The bad guys got away with the ship and equipment in tact. Not very competent of our favorite team. Carter getting zatted too quickly to do anything. Daniel not being able to do more without getting caught. There were only three people on that ship that we saw. Surely one of our two heroes could have been "lucky" and done more damage before capture. Most of this sounds like a writing problem to me.

3. I would have to rate this episode a five or six. This season is just not living up to what TPTB have done in the past. I don't mind the new elements that they are trying to introduce, but they are not doing it well, either because of budget or lack of creativity. While I generally liked this episode, I won't watch it again. Just nothing there worth a second viewing.

Lest, I incur the wrath of those who feel that negative opinions shouldn't be voiced, I will remind everyone that this is MY Opinion and it need not influence others to either watch or not watch. I orginally got into this forum because I wanted to know what other fans thought and how they felt about story arcs. I have been sadden to see that so many of of you see things basicly the same as I do. I was hoping that I had a warped perspective, but in reality, I find that I am in the mainstream on these shows.

Gategirl
September 19th, 2004, 10:57 AM
First off, who ever makes the trailers is doing a huge disservice to Stargate. Anyone who saw the trailer knew the Stargate was going to be stolen. That makes the opening scene very anticlimatic. What could have been a "Holy Crap" moment in Stargate history just fizzles because too much is given away in the trailers. :(


WOW!! Hind sight is 20/20!!! I would have enjoyed that shock!! LOL However, I can't imagine how else they could have trailered this one.

Major Fischer
September 19th, 2004, 11:15 AM
We still haven't see Sam's engagement ring which is weird seeing as when you agree to marry someone you should be really happy and want to wear the ring all the time....;)

Sam's catsuit jacket aside....

... rings with raised settings can sometimes get in the way when you are doing gritty work. It wouldn't surprise me if she had it on her dog tags instead of on her finger as that is what many military personel that i know of do when they are not in 'office' jobs.

It's not a regulation thing (you are allowed to wear one ring on each hand, or were as of 1995, when I last had to worry about such things), it's a practical and safety consideration.

Bandersnatch
September 19th, 2004, 11:41 AM
Howdy Campers,

So -- Endgame -- hmmm. Ehh -- all right of an episode. I would have chosen to put Sacrifices as the summer finale -- but I just liked that episode better. My two cents:

1) O'Neill came across as a little -- off. Maybe he needs a vacation from his desk -- like a trip through the wormhole.

2) The leather suit Carter wore during the capture -- sorry -- it just struck me as "not Carter." Maybe I'm just used to seeing her in BDUs.

3) Daniel the Interrogator -- not a bad concept. I liked the coffee joke.

4) The vial of ground Goa'uld scene was cute. Had to have been all RDA improv there.

5) The Trust agent that Teal'c kills looked a little like "Blade" to me -- long jacket, the walk -- I was waiting for vampires for a minute there.

Overall, a good show. Kept my attention even though it had very little of the man I idolize so much. It was one of those "convenient" shows -- every time they needed someone to appear (such as Teal'c at the end) he did. It worked though -- I'll buy it. Can't wait for the next installment in a few months (ugh, months -- all well. Someone already said thank goodness for DVDs. And correct they are!)

Mio
September 19th, 2004, 12:05 PM
1) O'Neill came across as a little -- off. Maybe he needs a vacation from his desk -- like a trip through the wormhole.

Yeh, O'Neill has been detached for most of season 8 so far :(

Major Fischer
September 19th, 2004, 12:10 PM
Yeh, O'Neill has been detached for most of season 8 so far :(

I've really felt like RDA was sleep walking through every episode after Zero Hour.

jckfan55
September 19th, 2004, 12:11 PM
Re: Sam in civvies. As I said earlier, I have a problem with the impractical leather outfit. But to give the writers the benefit of the doubt: do I remember correctly the team going on these sort of raids in civilian clothes before? Are they trying to look like undercover cops (or in the case of the nameless guys, a SWAT team?) The military has restrictions on its ability to act within US borders, doesn't it? Maybe the idea is that if anyone would spot them they'd think they were on a drug raid? What do the rest of you think?
Love the comment on there being no room for any C4 in Sam's "club" outfit. :)

Major Fischer
September 19th, 2004, 12:15 PM
Re: Sam in civvies. As I said earlier, I have a problem with the impractical leather outfit. But to give the writers the benefit of the doubt: do I remember correctly the team going on these sort of raids in civilian clothes before? Are they trying to look like undercover cops (or in the case of the nameless guys, a SWAT team?) The military has restrictions on its ability to act within US borders, doesn't it? Maybe the idea is that if anyone would spot them they'd think they were on a drug raid? What do the rest of you think?
Love the comment on there being no room for any C4 in Sam's "club" outfit. :)

The problem being that she was hanging around with two dozen men in black outfits, body armor, and automatic weapons. If you want to fit in with that group and not stand out, than that wasn't what to wear. Civilians don't hang out with guns strapped to their hips. She could have easily gone with what everyone else was wearing and looked like a police officer herself.

jckfan55
September 19th, 2004, 12:47 PM
The problem being that she was hanging around with two dozen men in black outfits, body armor, and automatic weapons. If you want to fit in with that group and not stand out, than that wasn't what to wear. Civilians don't hang out with guns strapped to their hips. She could have easily gone with what everyone else was wearing and looked like a police officer herself.
Yep--that's why I guess I ultimately can't accept my own proposed "out" for the writers.

:( It's too bad too. This is the sort of unnecessary thing that is jarring to the audience. Put her in cool civilian clothes when appropriate. As someone else said, it's not like AT needs the help to look good. Of course, civilian clothes--civilian situations leads us down another road full of potential problems that I won't get into...
Despite my seeming to harp on this, I did generally enjoy the episode.

Major Fischer
September 19th, 2004, 12:53 PM
Despite my seeming to harp on this, I did generally enjoy the episode.

I don't think it's a matter of harping on things. I don't think anyone is saying "SG1 Sucks because Carter was dressed badly." But I do think that it important when things do jar the audience to point them out and discuss why they don't work, so that perhaps TPTB have a chance not to repeat the mistake.

I see it more as helping the show get better, than simply complaining to complain.

Liv
September 19th, 2004, 01:09 PM
Finally, I've seen Endgame!

I kept watching this thread get more and more replies and my fingers were itching to click on the thread and start reading but I managed to stay away. Yay for me. And yes, I quite liked this one. Not excessively so, but enough to watch it again and still enjoy it (there are a couple of other episodes in this season I don't feel the same way about).

That opening scene was a lot of fun. Even though I was spoiled for the disappearance of the 'gate it was still very amusing to see the look of utter disbelief on the faces of Walter and "That Other Guy Whose Name I Don't Yet Know But He Was Kind of Funny So I Hope He Sticks Around".

I know the coffe joke has been mentioned already, but I loved it too, so it gets another nod from me.

Daniel: "Wait a minute! You were getting coffe?! (beat) I'm joking, I'm joking, this is a joke". Ha!

And then the scene right after that, with Jack:

Daniel: "I hate to be the guy that has to explain this to the President", earning him a glare from O'Neill, which makes him take a slight step back.

I found it sort of amusing that the guy who had taken the money only perked up when Daniel pointed out that he could keep the 2 million, but didn't make a sound when he was told that he would be protected from The Trust.

In my mind it sort of went like this: "Save my life, you say? Yeah, that's all right, I guess. Whatever. Money? I get the money? All right, as long as I get the money. Staying alive, yeah that's cool, but you'll make sure I keep the money. Right? Riiight?"

I'm kind of curious as to *why* Sam told The Trust guys about that particular planet not being worth the effort of launching the poison. What was so special about that planet? If she was telling the truth, why would she even say something, why not let them waste a rocket on a planet were there would be no casualties?

"Battle stations!" Oh, dear.

As for the 'Daniel interrogating' - scenes, well, I liked it, therefore I accept the "out of water" element. And I tend to agree with previous posters who said that it would be natural for him to assume some more responsibility around the base, after 8 years.

I liked the confused "Teal'c?" from the captain, near the end.

I'm also tremendously grateful that we didn't get a cliffhanger, because I don't think I could have managed two of those. The Atlantis one was more than enough, thank you.

Jolinarsam
September 19th, 2004, 02:40 PM
I can't remember how they explained the whole Tok'ra poison thing, so I don't know if this was already answered:

If the poison only affects symbiotes shouldn't the host be able to survive with the goa'uld or tok'ra just dying inside them and being absorbed.

I can understand maybe the Goa'uld wanting to take down their host with them. But the Tok'ra host in this episode died along with her symbiote. Does the poison affect the host somehow too?

Major Fischer
September 19th, 2004, 02:45 PM
I can understand maybe the Goa'uld wanting to take down their host with them. But the Tok'ra host in this episode died along with her symbiote. Does the poison affect the host somehow too?

It could be a matter of the exact method which the poison kills the symbiont. Since we know that the symbiont's blood itself is toxic to humans/Jaffa. It also could very well have been some sort of shock to the host's system.

Capt. Rivet
September 19th, 2004, 03:04 PM
To be completely (and somewhat brutally) honest I thought endgame was awful. Boring plot, no ship :: puts on a mit to catch the hell :: ... and what was with the catsuit?! I'm still having a problem figuring out the reasoning behind that one... aside from questioning the functionality of an outfit like that in a tactical situation. I apologize if this sounds kinda harsh but I really, really miss Carter.

Also, regarding that scene with Teal'c and that Tok'ra girl (no I can't remember her name and to be honest I'd kinda like to forget her existence), am I the only one who thought her acting was less than adequate?

Major Fischer
September 19th, 2004, 03:07 PM
To be completely (and somewhat brutally) honest I thought endgame was awful.

Wow, someone who hated the episode more than me. :) Rivet, the fake leather jacket thing has been discussed at length, and I agree, but I have to agree to disagree on the Tok'ra woman. Didn't mind her at all.

Livi2Jack
September 19th, 2004, 04:13 PM
>>>I'm kind of curious as to *why* Sam told The Trust guys about that particular planet not being worth the effort of launching the poison. What was so special about that planet? If she was telling the truth, why would she even say something, why not let them waste a rocket on a planet were there would be no casualties?<<<

Watch Carter's facial muscles twitching while she waits for the decision to launch or not. Either the lady faked them out. Or it was a useless garrison full of "innocent" Jaffa and she saved them.

I'm still not on board with "innocent" Jaffa. They are a deadly force used to enslave humans and if freed they would continue their warlike ways. Notice Sam's and Daniel's reactions to Jack's tough choice remark. It could have meant that Jack was ok with killing Jaffa versus his own team. Jack is a realist. The others miss the point in their idealism. Sam's reaction is telling.

Scarym1
September 19th, 2004, 04:25 PM
Son of a...oh, DRAT.

Thank Thor for DVDs. Thanks.
You were certainly took that better then my friend GWEN. When I told her of the almost four month break in Stargate and Atlantis, she had a quite few choice "words" for the folks at the SCI-FI Channel. ;)

Liv
September 19th, 2004, 04:26 PM
I'm kind of curious as to *why* Sam told The Trust guys about that particular planet not being worth the effort of launching the poison. What was so special about that planet? If she was telling the truth, why would she even say something, why not let them waste a rocket on a planet were there would be no casualties?


Watch Carter's facial muscles twitching while she waits for the decision to launch or not. Either the lady faked them out. Or it was a useless garrison full of "innocent" Jaffa and she saved them.

Yeah, that would certainly seem to be the logical explanation, but one would think that The Trust guy would have been mightily suspicious of what he perceived as Carter actually helping them - by telling him that the planet was of no use to them. I would have thought he would have called her bluff and fired anyway. I didn't think he was gonna buy it as easily as he did.

Scarym1
September 19th, 2004, 04:49 PM
I liked that Teal'c figured out how to dial into the gate.


So just how did Tealc figure out how to deal the gate and rescue Daniel and Sam?

This was what I was thinking that since the ship was in orbit around earth, the gate address would still be the same. Maybe when Tealc deal it first it didn't connect because it wasn't hooked up yet or something. But he kept trying and eventually he connected. Since he won't know what was goin on he decided to announce himself first before coming thru.

how does that sound?

Im_just_guessing
September 19th, 2004, 04:55 PM
He did connect, every time he dialed. But since the gate wasnt in the SGC he didnt get the "Iris open, come on through" message on his GDO! And when he tried using his radio, they did not respond.

Therefore, he went to the Alpha site, because he could not ascertain if it was safe to go to Earth.


Later, he tried once more for some reason or another, and when he was told to come through, he did.

AlphaBlu
September 19th, 2004, 05:08 PM
I'm also tremendously grateful that we didn't get a cliffhanger, because I don't think I could have managed two of those. The Atlantis one was more than enough, thank you.
Heh. That I definately agree with. Two cliff-hangers in one night would've killed us all! ;)

BYE

Skydiver
September 19th, 2004, 05:16 PM
He did connect, every time he dialed. But since the gate wasnt in the SGC he didnt get the "Iris open, come on through" message on his GDO! And when he tried using his radio, they did not respond.

Therefore, he went to the Alpha site, because he could not ascertain if it was safe to go to Earth.


Later, he tried once more for some reason or another, and when he was told to come through, he did.
yep, that's how it worked for everyone. the trust dudes never said 'hey, come on home' and, without a confirmation that the door's open, no one is willing to get splashed

Skydiver
September 19th, 2004, 05:18 PM
[QUOTE=Livi2Jack
Watch Carter's facial muscles twitching while she waits for the decision to launch or not. Either the lady faked them out. Or it was a useless garrison full of "innocent" Jaffa and she saved them.

[/QUOTE]

my opinion, sam knew that it was a jaffa friendly or tok'ra planet and was trying to save them.

Dani347
September 19th, 2004, 05:56 PM
I'm still not on board with "innocent" Jaffa. They are a deadly force used to enslave humans and if freed they would continue their warlike ways.


Like Sam said, this is all they've known from childhood, and they're doing it at the command of the goa'uld, who they believe are gods. They aren't doing it of their own free will.

Capt. Rivet
September 19th, 2004, 06:10 PM
Wow, someone who hated the episode more than me. :) Rivet, the fake leather jacket thing has been discussed at length, and I agree, but I have to agree to disagree on the Tok'ra woman. Didn't mind her at all.

She was just a little too overdramatic for my tastes I guess...

Skydiver
September 19th, 2004, 06:13 PM
Like Sam said, this is all they've known from childhood, and they're doing it at the command of the goa'uld, who they believe are gods. They aren't doing it of their own free will.


yeah. Sam has seen the other side of the jaffa. She's spent years with teal'c, just saw ryac get married, knows about ishta's issue with moloc murdering babies...she knows the 'people' behind the facade

Liebestraume
September 19th, 2004, 06:23 PM
Yeah, that would certainly seem to be the logical explanation, but one would think that The Trust guy would have been mightily suspicious of what he perceived as Carter actually helping them - by telling him that the planet was of no use to them. I would have thought he would have called her bluff and fired anyway. I didn't think he was gonna buy it as easily as he did.
I think it made great sense for him not to fire, even when he'd never bought Sam's explanation for a second. His goal was to wipe out Goa'uld, not Jaffa (or Tok'ra) -- they were just "acceptable collateral damage" to him. As stupid as The Trust seemed to be, this guy had enough brain to realize that, had there been some important System Lord on that planet, Sam would not have stopped him.

Major Fischer
September 19th, 2004, 06:31 PM
What I still don't understand is, if the Trust is as powerful as we're led to believe, with the access that we are led to believe, how come they didn't have information from the SGC computers about which were tok'ra/rebel Jaffa worlds and which were not. Even if you were going to launch on them, wouldn't you launch on the target first, and put the "acceptable losses" at the bottum of the list in case you were interupted.

Like by SG1 ;)

Im_just_guessing
September 19th, 2004, 06:41 PM
They had that information, but if you recall, they said that their information was 6 months out of date.

Major Fischer
September 19th, 2004, 06:44 PM
They had that information, but if you recall, they said that their information was 6 months out of date.

I guess my problem is that I feel like they are protrayed as powerful and influential enough that their information shouldn't be that out of date.

Skydiver
September 19th, 2004, 06:45 PM
What I still don't understand is, if the Trust is as powerful as we're led to believe, with the access that we are led to believe, how come they didn't have information from the SGC computers about which were tok'ra/rebel Jaffa worlds and which were not. Even if you were going to launch on them, wouldn't you launch on the target first, and put the "acceptable losses" at the bottum of the list in case you were interupted.

Like by SG1 ;)

They had some intel, just nothing recent. Thus suggeting that they'd lost thier source. I have my own theories as to who that is/was...but I can't spoil here :)

At one point, the black guy, jenkins or hoskins says 'her intel is more up to date than ours'

Liebestraume
September 19th, 2004, 06:54 PM
Like Sam said, this is all they've known from childhood, and they're doing it at the command of the goa'uld, who they believe are gods. They aren't doing it of their own free will.
This is very true. However, I wonder if this episode ever made a distinction between an "civilian Jaffa" and one that serves in a Goa'uld army. For the latter is an enemy capable of great harm. If I-was-just-following-orders is not a valid defense for any human, why should it then be any different for Jaffa?

DarkQuee1
September 19th, 2004, 06:58 PM
However, I don't see why Daniel's role as an archealogist precludes him from doing what he did in this episode. He's a very intelligent and competent guy, he can learn and grow. I'd hate to put him in one box and leave him there, it isn't fair to the character. He's been going on raids with SG-1 back since in the first season, and I think the reason his interrogating British guy didn't bother me is that they needed someone with comprehensive knowledge of the SGC and all of the aliens we've met up to this point. There are very few candidates. Jack obviously trusted Daniel enough for him to do this.


It is not a matter of intelligence or competence. It is a matter of expertise, skills (that is, learned skills) and training. Daniel doesn't have them. At least, we've never seen that he's gotten them. And when RDA was pulling a full load and Hammond was on the base, we never saw Daniel do this (which also means he wouldn't have gotten any experience). Why stop at this stuff? Maybe he should fix the gate next time? After all, he's intelligent and competent and we don't want to leave him in a box.

But he wouldn't. Because it would be unbelievable. But it isn't really any more unbelievable than his conducting interrogations. The latter also requires certain expertise and training; they don't just send anyone in to do it. I can't agree with your statement that there aren't many candidates with "comprehensive knowledge of the SGC" and of the aliens. First, I don't know how "comprehensive" Daniel's knowledge of the SGC is. I mean, he knows his area and he knows offworld procedures, but why would he know administrative or military details?

Second, I submit that every member of any of the offworld teams, esp. the military officers, would easily have as comprehensive an understanding of the workings of the SGC and of the aliens, including the Goa'uld, as would Daniel. Why wouldn't they? In fact, the CO's of these teams would probably have certain knowledge that Daniel, who is a team member but not command level, would not have.



Dani raised a good point that Weir, a civilian with no knowledge whatsoever of the program was chosen to run the SGC, a military operation.


Weir was put in charge to placate Kinsey, who expected her to basically gut the program completely, throw out the military and turn the whole operation over to him. She wasn't put in charge because it was believed that she could handle what is currently a military operation.



Why couldn't Daniel, who's been with the program from the beginning, interrogate a prisoner? He's been part of lots of negotiations, is very verbal, can think on his feet, and knows as much about the SGC as anyone. Yes, others might have more experience, but it doesn't mean Daniel wouldn't do a good job.


But Daniel wasn't very good at it. He got the guy to help by basically letting him off the hook and letting him keep the $2,000,000 that he got for selling us out. Do you really think that Hammond, Jack, Davis, heck even Teal'c, would have done that? No, they would have let him know that treason is a capital offense in this county and it carries the death penalty, and if he didn't want to end up being stood in front of a wall and shot, then he better cooperate. Want to bet the weasel would have? Without getting to keep his ill-gotten gains? We saw the same thing in 48 Hours--Daniel gave the Russians everything they wanted. That's capitulation, not negotiation. And he wasn't having any success getting the Kelownans to do anything; it wasn't until Jack kicked butt that they began to exhibit some common sense.


Why can't Daniel have additional skills outside of his academic ones? He'd be dead for real by now if he hadn't learned to handle a gun. I wouldn't want to see Daniel become GI Joe, but I can take a little bit of ActionJackson as long as we don't completely lose the civilian and his unique perspective. We've seen enough of sensitiveDaniel this year to make me feel this isn't the case.


This stuff is not even close to being within any of Daniel's area of expertise. Instead of this, they should find something closer to home for him to do. Why turn him into Jack-lite or some generic soldier? It's failure of imagination that they can't find something more "Daniel" for him to be involved in.

And I would have a problem now if suddenly in a future ep Daniel started being offered as the other perspective and different approach person: he's been too much Rambo Jackson. For example, he didn't even suggest trying to talk to Soren and/or his followers. Could we see him playing it that way a couple of years ago?

Yes, I do expect Daniel to be better at taking care of himself after all this time in the field. And he is. I have no problem with that. But what we are seeing goes way beyond this.

(BTW, we never saw that Sam was trained in ops, either. In RL, it's probable that things like the raids on the warehouse would be handled by specialized troops. I realize that this is a TV series and they are going to use the main characters as much as possible. It's just that there has to be some effort to remain in the realm of believability).


Part of the problem is that I see this as failure on the part of the writers. They have not been able to utilize Daniel properly since he came back. They don't have anything "Daniel" for Daniel to do. They haven't even been able to write him so that ascension had some effect on him. That he was, in some way, different from who he had been before. (I don't think that becoming Daniel "Terminator" Jackson was quite the difference that ascension was supposed to make).

In this ep, if you took out all the non-Daniel stuff that he was doing, he wouldn't have been in the ep, or only minimally. And you can say that about most of the eps since the return. Daniel is not my favorite character, though I like him. But if he were, I would be royally ticked that they were basically washing out the character. He's a nice guy, and nothing more. They are using him more as a Jack stand-in (because they don't have Jack to do the stuff) than as Daniel.

(Heck, right now, Daniel could be both halves of the Jack-Daniel friendship! <<g>>)

The following is not directed at you personally, because I've seen a lot of posts (not only on GW, but on other lists and forums) that think there's nothing wrong with Daniel's doing all this stuff, arguing that he should be able to do other things and that he's fully capable of doing things outside of his original areas of expertise--even going so far as to suggest that he is the base 2IC, which is patently absurd. I find this to be a bit of a double standard.

Think back to some of the complaints that some fans have been making about "SuperSam". I never really agreed because, for me. Sam's abilities always remained in the original parameters they set for her--military scientist, frontline officer, brilliant hard scientist--just that some of them got better over the years (it would be hard to be around Jack for 7 years and not get better at being a field officer). For example, there were complaints that she was great with computers. Well, most hard scientists are; they do a lot of theoretical work on computers.

But if that was SuperSam, then what is Daniel at this point? Suddenly, he conducts interviews with SGC personnel to see if they did their jobs right. He does negotiating. He conducts interrogations. He goes off on missions on his own. Etc Etc. Why is this not SuperDaniel? While I don't think that Sam really did expand into areas that were not within her initial character description, let's say she did. Why wasn't she allowed to step out of the box without being criticized while it is somehow both OK and believable for Daniel?



I think Sam's catsuit bothered me more than anything else in this episode. It was unnecessary and took me out of the flow of the episode because I was distracted by the outfit. The woman is gorgeous, she doesn't need clothing like that to look good. She looked fantastic in jackets and combat boots for years. :)


We are in complete agreement here. There was absolutely no reason why she would be dressed like that in a raid, esp as everyone else was in combat gear.


J.

Liebestraume
September 19th, 2004, 07:06 PM
What I still don't understand is, if the Trust is as powerful as we're led to believe, with the access that we are led to believe, how come they didn't have information from the SGC computers about which were tok'ra/rebel Jaffa worlds and which were not. Even if you were going to launch on them, wouldn't you launch on the target first, and put the "acceptable losses" at the bottum of the list in case you were interupted.

Like by SG1 ;)
Perhaps they had some old list that had been leaked by Kinsey, back in his VP and Intelligence-Committee days, and they were actually firing according to that priority list. However, it was still quite inconceivable of them not to anticipate any change after all this time.

Major Fischer
September 19th, 2004, 07:20 PM
But if that was SuperSam, then what is Daniel at this point? Suddenly, he conducts interviews with SGC personnel to see if they did their jobs right. He does negotiating. He conducts interrogations. He goes off on missions on his own. Etc Etc. Why is this not SuperDaniel? While I don't think that Sam really did expand into areas that were not within her initial character description, let's say she did. Why wasn't she allowed to step out of the box without being criticized while it is somehow both OK and believable for Daniel?

I am (for once, it happens ;) ) in total agreement with you on this. I'm of mixed feelings as to why I think this happens, and my best guess is that it is a combination of two factors.

The Daniel Jackson fans are very loyal (not a bad thing), and very defensive (not always a good thing), towards their favorite character. There are people that believe that Daniel can do no wrong, and that whatever is presented in the show is reasonable for him. To me this harms the character. I like Daniel when he's not Wonder Daniel. The ascension buisness not withstanding, part of the fun of the character is that he does not look at the world the same way that the military officers do. That is the essential merit of his character in the show as originally constituted.

Daniel is not the base deputy commander (and IMO, there should be a real deputy commander, someone in charge of operations for the SGC, it's patently absurd that neither Hammond or Jack seem to have either aides or staff). That is not the strength of Daniel's character. In intelligence work there is a phase: James Bond is a lot of people. There are highly skilled specialists in the jobs they threw Daniel into doing in this episode. If they wanted to use the main characters the way they did, they needed to have had Daniel be the one to be captured first, and let Sam be the military officer.

She's the one that gets payed for it. But again, only if you must use the main characters in roles that they aren't suited for.

The second thing that I think contributes to the idea that it's okay for Daniel to step so far outside of his role, and not okay for Sam to grow from hers is sadly that Sam is a woman. I have been loathed to mention this, especially given the very important roles that Sam and Janet have played over the years, but the series doens't give a good feel for women in the US military. Especially in the air force (which has one of the highest percentiages of jobs open to women). Yes, we have Sam and Janet, but when you look at the other guest air force characters there is a decided lack of female characters. There have been a few SFs and a few techs, but with the exception of Hailey and Satterfield not many real episode significant female military characters

I think that gives some fans--especially those unfamiliar with the changes that the American military has undergone in the last two decades, but especially in the last decade--an extremely unrealistic impression. For the most part, IMO, the show could have been set in 1984, had women in the same roles, and been about the same.

There are some fans who do not want to see female soldiers. Who don't believe in female soldiers. Arguements about women in combat aside, this is the US military these days. I think that these fans take those feelings out on Sam, claiming she is unrealistic, when from my viewpoint, it is they themselves who are being unrealistic.

Grumpyguy
September 19th, 2004, 08:17 PM
Just a thought. Won't the Jaffa blame Earth for millions of deaths? And wouldn't any System Lord worth his salt as a would be god, rally the Jaffa around these mass deaths? Also, don't you think that this human attack on the Jaffa, might cause Teal'c to at least reassess his alliance with humanity? Finally, might not the Tokra also view the actions of the Trust as a threat and plot some actions, at least some retalitory actions against Earth.

If the writers take this episode seriously, and follow up on it, there could be a number of interesting plot twists.

kiwigater
September 19th, 2004, 08:30 PM
Finally!
Was hijacked from Stargate by other committments for the weekend, but I have finally seen Endgame.
I've read thru everyone's comments, and I there's one thing I laughed at that no one else has mentioned.....
For weeks we've been complaining about how they NEVER go thru the Stargate anymore and that the dang thing is collecting dust! Well, here in the first 2 mins they take care of that by taking away the Stargate completely :P I was sitting here thinking, "well, now the writers don't have to make excuses about Earth based eps" ;)

*cough* OK, apparantly I'm the only one finding that amusing....... and we're walking......

As for the rest ..... overall I enjoyed it.
Things I liked:
1. Walter, and the use of humour :D
2. Daniel's translation from Convenant coming back to bite him on the ass - all of a sudden that hokey line "oh, and by the way we'll know if you're lying to us" makes much more sense.....
3. Cute interaction with Sam and Daniel when they meet up on the Alkesh
4. Sam kicking ass, despite the fact she was tied up :D

Things I wasn't so fond of:
1. Daniel doing the interrogating. I have no problem with expanding the roles of the cast, but to me this felt like a scene written for someone else that they just decided to use MS in.
2. Sam dressed up to the nine's for a raid :S To me this feels like gratuitous pandering to a certain demographic. Fine for them if they choose to do that, I'm just not that demographic.....
3. Sam and Daniel seemed a little too laid back about the whole capture thing. Especially since Daniel must have been aware that because he didn't disable the hyperdrives blowing up the ship was about the only option.

Speaking of which, isn't the gate capable of surviving any sort of earth based weapon the Prometheus could launch at it (I know the Asguard installed shields and a hyperdrive, but no mention of weapons). And considering the gate survived an uncontrolled entry in the Earth's atmophere, and the DHD last week survived 2 missiles (the list goes on....), I would consider that compelling evidence the gate would have been recoverable. :o

4. Jack. I adore Jack *cough Thunk thread cough* :P but I was not feeling the anguish and torment he must surely have been in making this enormously important decision. And I'm still not sure about the "tough decision" line :S

Having read the rest of this thread I'm gonna preface this with a IN MY OPINION!: having watched Endgame and then Atlantis, I really feel like SG-1 is getting the short end of the stick :S With the time of the production crew being split between the series I can't help feel SG-1 is losing out. :( I hope if season 9 eventuates they make some effort to remedy this. JMHO.

OK, now looking at this post you'd think I didn't enjoy the ep. I did. And looking forward to new eps in Jan!

Livi2Jack
September 19th, 2004, 08:32 PM
Just a thought. Won't the Jaffa blame Earth for millions of deaths? And wouldn't any System Lord worth his salt as a would be god, rally the Jaffa around these mass deaths? Also, don't you think that this human attack on the Jaffa, might cause Teal'c to at least reassess his alliance with humanity? Finally, might not the Tokra also view the actions of the Trust as a threat and plot some actions, at least some retalitory actions against Earth.

If the writers take this episode seriously, and follow up on it, there could be a number of interesting plot twists.
The Tokra don't know it was earth. The Tokra who knew about the deaths died. But the Tokra know we have it.
The Jaffa don't know it was Earth. They don't know about the poison. A Goauld would have to tell them and admit it kills gods.
The Goauld don't know it was earth. They just know Tokra have it.
If the Tokra know about the Trust, then they know it is specific to a subgroup. Action would be against the subgroup.
Teal'c knows about the Trust and knows humanity as a whole is not responsible. He knows he has to get the Trust.

Subplot would be to make an antidote.

Jonisa
September 19th, 2004, 08:36 PM
The following is not directed at you personally, because I've seen a lot of posts (not only on GW, but on other lists and forums) that think there's nothing wrong with Daniel's doing all this stuff, arguing that he should be able to do other things and that he's fully capable of doing things outside of his original areas of expertise--even going so far as to suggest that he is the base 2IC, which is patently absurd. I find this to be a bit of a double standard.

Think back to some of the complaints that some fans have been making about "SuperSam". I never really agreed because, for me. Sam's abilities always remained in the original parameters they set for her--military scientist, frontline officer, brilliant hard scientist--just that some of them got better over the years (it would be hard to be around Jack for 7 years and not get better at being a field officer). For example, there were complaints that she was great with computers. Well, most hard scientists are; they do a lot of theoretical work on computers.

But if that was SuperSam, then what is Daniel at this point? Suddenly, he conducts interviews with SGC personnel to see if they did their jobs right. He does negotiating. He conducts interrogations. He goes off on missions on his own. Etc Etc. Why is this not SuperDaniel? While I don't think that Sam really did expand into areas that were not within her initial character description, let's say she did. Why wasn't she allowed to step out of the box without being criticized while it is somehow both OK and believable for Daniel?


Hmmm. Well. I snipped a lot of your post, hope that's okay. I did it so this wouldn't turn into a long "What's wrong/right with Daniel discussion", which probably doesn't belong here. (If I'm feeling ambitious tomorrow I'll take it to the Daniel thread, or maybe someone else out there is ambitious and wants to do it. Anyone? Anyone? :p ) So rather than type out a long reply, I'm going to go straight to the old "agree to disagree" chestnut, because that's where we're going to end up anyway. I'm with the other posters who didn't have a problem with his role in this episode. You did. :)

As far as SuperDaniel, don't see it. In your list of what might make him SuperDaniel, there's only one thing mentioned that he's never done before, and that's interrogation. He's negotiated and gone off on missions on his own before. He hasn't always been successful, but one of the things I like about the character is that he's flawed and he screws up sometimes. That's what keeps him from being SuperDaniel, for me, anyway. He messes up a fair amount.

That's the only way I could see SuperSam, btw, although to be honest I haven't really thought that much about it. It isn't so much her knowledge, as the fact that she can solve anything, and rarely, if ever, screws up. Part of me would love, love, love to see an episode where Sam really messes up and how she deals with it, but the other part is afraid that she'd be judged way too harshly by the fans if they did that so perhaps it's better not to go there. I do think it's extremely unrealistic that she can do all she does, because the hard sciences are a huge field and I find it's unlikely that she's such an expert in all of them. However, I also find it strains credulity that Daniel is fluent in 23 or more languages. But I buy it, because these two characters encapsulate the sciences, both hard and soft. They know more than they should because the writers need them to.

And yes I agree, recently Daniel has taken on more of Jack's former role, for plot reasons again I would guess, and RDA's reduced schedule. As I've already said, I don't have a problem with someone who's been on a frontline team for 8 years and is a close and trusted friend and advisor of the general to assume some of these duties. Would I like to see more episodes where he uses his linguist/archaeologist/anthropologist skills? Of course I would. However, as long as he doesn't lose his essential "Danielness" (And he hasn't...yet...to me. If he does I'll be complaining loudly. ;) ) I'm with those who don't have a problem with his role in Endgame.

Obviously, your mileage varies on this.

lord-anubis
September 19th, 2004, 08:52 PM
i like this ep it was ok

Dani347
September 19th, 2004, 09:35 PM
Well, I'll be defensive. I didn't see Daniel trying to see if the SGC personnel "did their jobs right" but he was asking what happened. Are their special skills involved in that that go way out of Daniel's possible skills that he's learned since he's been at the SGC? It didn't even seem like he conducted it in the manner of an interrogation, a word which has a lot of baggage, but like he was simply taking a statement. I think it's already been established that civilians can take on major roles in a military operation at the SGC. I don't believe there was no military officer other than Jack who had the rank to command when they had Weir command the SGC. Once they made it canon that a civilian could command a military operation, I feel they made it acceptable for a civilian to assume larger responsibilities around a military base. And, there are no civilians that I think Jack trusts more than Daniel or Teal'c, and I really think Daniel is more skilled at asking questions than Teal'c.



As far as Daniel going to rescue Sam, there was nothing military about his involvement, except that he was armed, but that's been canon since the start. It was because of his particular skills in knowing the Ancient language (even though he wasn't able to use them, but he didn't know it when he proposed getting on the ship). And, couldn't only one person use the beaming device at a time? If more than one could have, I could see having a military officer in charge of the operation, with Daniel going along for his skills with the Ancient language. I would object if Jack had ordered a rescue mission and put Daniel in charge. That would be something I see as particularly military, within the way the show has been set up. I've said before that if the show establishes certain rules that are different from real life, I'm willing to accept it. The rules in the universe of Stargate, at least how I see it, is that off world (unless out of the ordinary circumstances happened) Daniel wouldn't lead missions or rescue efforts. It wouldn't be protocal. Daniel coming up with an outside the box rescue effort? That sounds very like Daniel. Jack reluctantly agreeing to it, but only because there was no other choice, I can see.

Any objections I have with Sam have nothing to do with her being a woman. Well, except when being a woman seems to be synonomous (bah. My spelling sucks) with being a simpering girly -girl. But, that's neither here nor there in this argument. Sam taking on a role that hasn't been spelled out as one of her normal duties? I have no problem with, in general. I'd assume it was that she was given more responsibilities, and they let the scene show us her undertaking them. Which means I don't need to see Jack tell her that she's been appointed to do something that she hadn't done before, or that don't fit into the narrow confines of being a Lt. Colonel (not that I know exactly what confines those are) or an astrophysicist. In Lockdown, when Sam questioned the Leutinent, was that really something she would do? Yes, she's military, but in the real world, aren't there other military officers who would have been more likely? Like Reynolds, or whoever it was working with Jack in Zero Hour? To me, that didn't seem to fall under Sam's regular duties, and yet, I had no problem with it. And, I'm sure Sam has other skills and has learned more stuff than what directly pertains to her role as being part of SG1 or being an astrophysicist. And, as long as it wasn't something blatantly impossible for her to do, it wouldn't bother me to see her being asked to do them, even if it wasn't something that directly related to her role before.

In fact, I expect all of SG1 to take on larger roles beyond what we're used to seeing, because I expect Jack to give them larger roles, because he trusts them and their abilities more than anyone. And, I think there are times when they might have to do things that go even beyond what might be deemed as a promotion, simply because circumstances thrust them into it.

However, Sam doing complex medical procedures? *Dani cries foul* Because it would be something that there's no way she *could* do. Sam explaining some archeological feat with Daniel right there? No way, because Daniel is the expert. Daniel being placed in charge of a military mission above Sam? Or, above any military officer? Totally out of the realm of what Daniel would be allowed to do. Daniel doing a complex medical procedure? Again, foul. Non complex being bandaging a wound or something, which I think either one could do. Either one doing something that is Teal'c's area of expertise? No way. Even though Daniel is fluent in Goa'uld, if they were strategizing with Jaffa, I wouldn't expect Daniel to lead it with Teal'c there, because Teal'c is the expert.

I can see criticizing Daniel's method of interrogating (and that instance really felt more like an interrogation that talking to Walter and the other guy) the Area 51 guy. Which some of you already have. Saying that his methods show he doesn't have the skills. I'm not saying I agree, but I understand. But, I do think the idea that a civilain would never assume that large a role at the SGC was unestablished once Weir was in charge of the whole kit and caboodle of the SGC. All those military officers having to answer to a civilain, and what's more, having to follow the orders of a civilian (theoretically, Weir could have been in charge of the SGC a lot longer than she was) but a civilain can't get a statement from military officers?

As far as Daniel's attitude and viewpoint being different from the military, I think that's a separate issue from what responsibilites he assumes. His attitude had nothing to do with him questioning or interrogating anyone, since I don't think he took it upon himself without permission to do so. Just like his attitude or viewpoint never had anything to do with him dialing the gate back when SG1 used it. It was just him doing what he was told. And, there was nothing in those scenes that would make me think Daniel would object to conducting the questioning, because it went against his viewpoint. I'm not talking about whether he would be allowed to conduct them (I discussed that above in this long winded essay) but whether he wouldn't do it because it went against his personality. And, I don't think it did. Finding information? Not something Daniel would object to. Daniel going to rescue Sam? Strictly going by whether Daniel would do it if he could, he'd be the first to volunteer. Nothing there said to me that Daniel would never do this in a million years, even if given permission. Everything said to me that if he hadn't been given permission he'd do his best to get permission.

I have no problems with any of them doing things beyond the roles that were established in season 1, because I think this would happen over the course of 8 years. With the exception of things where another major character is there and clearly would be the one doing it instead, or things that are totally impossible for them to do. And, when I say impossible, I don't mean merely that they wouldn't do it well, but that they are completely unable to do the job at all. I also don't have a problem with things that aren't strictly like real life provided (and please keep the provided in mind) that the show establishes that in the Stargate universe, the rules are different. If it seems to me that they're breaking the laws of the tv show universe, I object.

I'll stop here, because this is way too long. But, I think I'll answer some other criticisms in another post, because I have other comments to make.

Major Fischer
September 19th, 2004, 09:42 PM
Dani, I really wasn't talking about your concerns, but more a feeling that i have that there is a certain vocal subset of fandom that simply doesn't like female characters, and who also seems to demonstrate a knowledge of the workings of the military based entirely on hollywood.

It's unfortunate. That these small minorities can and will dominate a discussion to the point that you and I feel the need to write such detailed reponses to them.

Dani347
September 19th, 2004, 10:30 PM
The latter also requires certain expertise and training; they don't just send anyone in to do it.

Okay, see, that kind of criticism for why Daniel couldn't do interrogations I can understand. It has to do with the specifics of the job, not some blanket "he's a civillian, no way could a civillian do this" Saying that you don't feel Daniel has the skills or that it hasn't been shown that he had the opportunity to learn the skills (I would say that it isn't out of the realm of possibility that Daniel could ever learn them) makes more sense. And, long post earlier explains why I don't buy the civillian argument in and of itself.


Maybe he should fix the gate next time? After all, he's intelligent and competent and we don't want to leave him in a box.

But he wouldn't. Because it would be unbelievable.

Yes, it would be. There's no reason to think that because some of us don't object to Daniel interrogating we wouldn't object to anything.


I don't agree that Weir wouldn't have stayed on as head of the SGC, or that she would have gutted the program, even if Kinsey wanted it. The President didn't want it, and he would have kept her there even after it was clear that she wasn't going to gut the program. If Jack hadn't been defrosted and Weir hadn't gone on to Atlantis, I don't think the President (blanking on his name) would have allowed her to be forced out. So, she still could have been in charge for a long time. And, while I believe that Kinsey probably wanted it to happen, and hoped it would go that way, did he ever instruct her to "gut the program"? Because unless he did, and unless Weir was willing to follow those orders, they wouldn't play a part in what actually would go on at the SGC. I think Weir took her post very seriously, and while she was there, the military officers did have to answer to her. In fact, why put her in charge at all? It's not like Kinsey could think she especially would want to gut the program. After all, she did have a choice on whether or not to take the job. If he wanted someone to gut the program, there could have been a lot of other people to put in charge of it, which would have gotten that job done a lot faster. Probably military officers. But, until the time when she did shut the SGC down (if she had done it) she was in charge, and those military officers would have to answer to her.


He got the guy to help by basically letting him off the hook and letting him keep the $2,000,000 that he got for selling us out.

Okay, I'm not saying this is good negotiating skills, but I do wonder if Daniel was telling the truth about that. He told the guy they were going to let him keep the money, but it seems Brit guy gave up the info before finding out if Daniel was on the level. Again, I don't know if this was correct procedure, but it's possible that Daniel didn't actually let him off the hook.


This stuff is not even close to being within any of Daniel's area of expertise. Instead of this, they should find something closer to home for him to do. Why turn him into Jack-lite or some generic soldier?

Handling weapons isn't remotely within Daniel's area of expertise? Daniel has used weapons since the movie. Daniel's been on a front line team since the beginning of the show. He would have to stay earthbound if he didn't learn any battle skills.


For example, he didn't even suggest trying to talk to Soren and/or his followers. Could we see him playing it that way a couple of years ago?


Actually, he did suggest. "I can talk to them. Make them understand that it's not the end of the world." After things escalated and there were no other options, he was willing to use battle strategies. We gpt there mid battle. He didn't go there with the intent to fight. He went with the intent to talk. Which is what the scene with him asking Jack if he could go established. But, Daniel isn't so dumb that if fighting is the only way to stay alive, he wouldn't take the option. Soren wasn't going to listen to reason. It doesn't take a peaceful person to try to talk to someone like Soren by the end of the episode. It takes someone who's so stubborn they can't see they're hitting a brick wall. Daniel's stubborn, but he's not that stubborn. He went there with a very Daniel like plan, and only changed when that plan was no longer viable.
I also don't think that Daniel would only know stuff about the goa'uld that pertains directly to what SG1 has encountered. He can do research, question CO's of other teams (who would probably talk to him anyway at least as far as finding out the background of the gods the goa'ulds they encountered were impersonating). And, I think SG1 would have more knowledge anyway, since they're the ones who are the first contact team.

As far as skills that go outside just archeology and lingustics, Daniel was responsible for revisions to a treaty with the Tok'ra and earth. D&C. An inspired document. He had to have some skills to do that.

As far as Rambo Jackson, I just don't see him using weapons any more than he had done before. Or being any more willing, since he's never been unwilling if it was the best option.

eta: I also have no problem with Sam being in charge of a covert operation. I don't expect them to adhere with total strictness to real life. (For the possible "You bring up the regs about ship" argument, read earlier post about rules within the Stargate universe) Simply, while they'll occasionally use extras and smaller characters for things, any significant scene will always have a main cast member in a large part. It's how tv works.

eta: One last thing, then I promise I'm shutting up. I still find it funny that it appears that Daniel being an archeologist is the sticking point. Probably people don't mean it this way, but it's reading to me like him being an archeologist is a bigger strike than him being a civilian or not having the training. Like if he were military and an archeologist, he wouldn't be able to conduct an interrogation, or if he were a civillian but a historian, there'd be no problem with him doing it. Again, probably not what you all intend, but it reads like that (to me) when things like "and he's an archeologist, too!" come into the argument. Why not, "And, he's a linguist!"

Madeleine
September 20th, 2004, 12:46 AM
I think part of it is that all of Daniel's 'Extra' tasks - firing a gun, asking an airman "so, what happened here then?", getting a treaty onto a table - are all things we can imagine ourselves capable of doing. Not doing well, perhaps; not necessarily as well as Daniel, but certainly we could have a stab at them. Sam's 'Extras' are stuff like fixing alien spaceships within hours of being introduced to their tech despite the aliens being unable themselves, or stuff like biochemistry or computer hacking government systems or other such stuff that most viewers know they wouldn't know where to begin with.

Anyone can learn to shoot, and you don't need special skills or training to do treaties and take statements. (You might need skills or training to do a treaty halfway decently, but that's neither here nor there.) You most certainly do need training to repair space-ships - at least in MaddyCanon you do. That's why I have a greater problem with some of Sam's tack-on talents than I do with any of Daniel's.

Indiana
September 20th, 2004, 02:39 AM
This was a kinf of an interesting episode, but like Atlantis I thought it could have ended so much better. Why did SG-1 have to get the gate. I kept saying, please steal the gate! Steal the gate! Why? because I wanted excitement. Plus it would have been a great cliffhanger to an episode even though it wasn't a "To Be Continued" type of episode. At the start of the episode when the gate is stolen, you're all thinking, of they're gonna get the gate back at the end of the episode, but when it gets away at the end, uh-oh! Thats when you starting going, ok, so now they're screwed!

When the ship went into Hyperspeed I was like, OMG! She got away with the gate, but then nope a radio communication from Prometheus...We hae SG-1 and the gate. *bummer* When is something REALLY exciting gonna happen on this show. :(

Skydiver
September 20th, 2004, 04:46 AM
Just a thought. Won't the Jaffa blame Earth for millions of deaths? And wouldn't any System Lord worth his salt as a would be god, rally the Jaffa around these mass deaths? Also, don't you think that this human attack on the Jaffa, might cause Teal'c to at least reassess his alliance with humanity? Finally, might not the Tokra also view the actions of the Trust as a threat and plot some actions, at least some retalitory actions against Earth.

If the writers take this episode seriously, and follow up on it, there could be a number of interesting plot twists.

oOh yes they can, which could be very interesting. As far as the Jaffa are concerned, a tau'ri is mass murdering thier brothers. they don't give a fig as to his/her political connections, all they know or care about is that an earther is killing folks.

if it's not ignored, the stinky brown stuff can hit the fan and all sorts of nasty stuff can happen

Skydiver
September 20th, 2004, 04:49 AM
Having read the rest of this thread I'm gonna preface this with a IN MY OPINION!: having watched Endgame and then Atlantis, I really feel like SG-1 is getting the short end of the stick With the time of the production crew being split between the series I can't help feel SG-1 is losing out. I hope if season 9 eventuates they make some effort to remedy this. JMHO.
____

this i can agree with. It's very obvious that Atlantis is getting much of thier focus. and it shows on Stargate. I seem to recall the same thing happening on the Treks. TNG suffered while DS9 was launched. DS9 suffered while Voyager was launched.

It does make sense. STargate is on its last legs, Atlantis (best case scenario) has almost a decade of life left to it. Atlantis is a cash cow while all Stargate has is to be milked as long as they can.

But, while i understand why, it doesn't make me feel sad to see a good show so ignored and neglected.

Skydiver
September 20th, 2004, 04:59 AM
My main issue with both daniel taking the statement and interrogating is that he is a civilian. Now in the statement case, he was a civilian, and not a civilian in a clear role pertaining to the control room, taking a statement from a military officer.

Now, if artifacts had been beamed out, then that would be within daniel's purvue. But taking that statement was a job for the base's security chief or even jack, not just a civilian who seems to be the boss of the archaeology/linguisitc section.

Other than going through the gate, daniel really had to reason to be conducting the interview.

As to interrogating doctor icky....Daniel's not an interrogator. Again, this should have been someone like Reynolds. someone with the authority to make deals.

Both of those scenes seemed to me to be like 'rda couldn't work that day, so let's have MS do them' or 'we can't afford to pay another actor, so we'll use the one we have'

Back in lockdown, i didn't have an issue with sam interviewing the nurse because sam is an officer and a team leader. and she was interviewing another military officer. And she was doing so while under observation from the base commander....just like we've seen jack doing in the past

I think daniel interrogating was just the result of sloppy writing or actor issues...unfortunately it is a plot hole that stuck out....just like no one considering that the stargate could survive getting blown up and promie could just go get it

NightGloom
September 20th, 2004, 05:23 AM
OK, for me this episode wasn't bad, but it wasn't too great. I was waiting for some kind of big climax thing, since stories are supposed to be rising action, climax and then falling action, but I didn't really see it. It's getting too predictable though. At the beginning of the show, the team could be in a potentially life-threatening situation and you weren't positive that they were going to get out of it. Now, you know that they're going to get out of it and you know how most of the time.

Indiana
September 20th, 2004, 05:35 AM
OK, for me this episode wasn't bad, but it wasn't too great. I was waiting for some kind of big climax thing, since stories are supposed to be rising action, climax and then falling action, but I didn't really see it. It's getting too predictable though. At the beginning of the show, the team could be in a potentially life-threatening situation and you weren't positive that they were going to get out of it. Now, you know that they're going to get out of it and you know how most of the time.
When you say it's getting too predictable I agree. Thats why I would have loved it if the Stargate was lost to them by the end of the episode. No one would really have expected such a thing.

NightGloom
September 20th, 2004, 05:40 AM
Yeah, it could have definitely been made into a 2 parter, or they could have actually lost the gate! Since, in the past they've "lost" the gate- they seem to have an endless supply. And "The Trust" is definitely the most predictable part.

Indiana
September 20th, 2004, 05:52 AM
It didn't even have to be a two parter at all. The next half of the season could have been really interesting. The government would have to deal with the fact they no longer had a gate. What would the future of the Stargate be? it could take a couple of episode to wrap up the storyline. I wouldn't like them to get the gate back too early. I know it's Stargate, but with the ammount of time we seem to be spending on earth of lately, why not give a reason for it. I think the writers need to take some more risks and do something a bit more interesting. The ending of that episode should have been exciting, and should have had some heroic build up to SG-1 rescuing the gate, but It wasn't. The way it was done, I expected the gate to be gone, but it wasn't.

Wyrminarrd
September 20th, 2004, 07:32 AM
This was the best episode of the season so far, it had a good story line and keept up the suspence all the way through.

My only gripe about the episode is why the heck the NID/Trust people needed to take the SGC stargate. Why didn´t they just go to some uninhabited planet with the ship and use that stargate? That would have made them impossible to stop and never have alerted the SGC.

jyh
September 20th, 2004, 01:40 PM
And, I honestly don't see what the big deal is with Daniel interrogating people. It doesn't seem to be something that requires any especial military skill. Jack must have appointed him to be the person to do the job. I would think he has a very high civilian rank (no need for Walter and friend to call him "sir" if he didn't have some authority.

Civilians don't have "rank." Walter & the other guy called Daniel "sirt" because a lot of military personnel refer to men as "sirs" and women as "ma'ams," regardless of whether they're in the military or not. At least, that's been my observtion.

epiphany
September 20th, 2004, 01:46 PM
I could see Daniel making a report about the missing Stargate, but I felt it was out of place for him to be interrogating the British prisoner. Daniel does not carry the authority to bargain. Especially to say they would ignore the $2 million. That role would have been more for the General. In Smoke and Mirrors, it was General Hammond that negotiated with the spy. It would have been more appropriate for Jack to deal with the prisoner and not Daniel.



How do you know Daniel doesn't carry the authority to bargain, though? :) It certainly seemed like he did to me. Daniel has definitely seemed like he got a promotion as well this year. Last season we know the president seemed to approve of more "civilian influence and control" on the SGC. Weir seemed to have Daniel acting as her second in command. Ultimately why would we believe that Jack sort of demoted him when he became commander?

In fact I'd say the whole $2 million thing was probably pre-cleared already. They needed the information in a hurry, they didn't have time to waste.

Interrogating, especially a relatively "soft" interrogation like this is another form of negoatiation. Daniel's been negotiating for years now. It's a relatively small step from doing that to doing this.

Skydiver
September 20th, 2004, 04:45 PM
Civilians don't have "rank." Walter & the other guy called Daniel "sirt" because a lot of military personnel refer to men as "sirs" and women as "ma'ams," regardless of whether they're in the military or not. At least, that's been my observtion.


yep. in the military it's like 'sir' and 'ma'am' have been permnantly hardwired into thier brains. They will err on the side of caution and address everyone (that isn't thier direct inferior) as sir or maam, just to be safe

Skydiver
September 20th, 2004, 04:49 PM
Weir seemed to have Daniel acting as her second in command. Ultimately why would we believe that Jack sort of demoted him when he became commander?




Well, it hasn't been said that he's been promoted and another way to look at it could be that Weir was gravitating toward Daniel simply because he was the most influential civilian there. She and Sam had a rather adversarial relationship. Teal'c was an alien that we never saw her interact with. Jack was...indisposed. So that left Daniel as the only person on the base who could advise her.

It is possible that she saw him as a second, it's also just as possible that Daniel was there and a resource to be plumbed. I seem to recall that she pretty much, well not quite bullied, but she did rather push him into assisting her when it seemed, to me, that he was rather reluctant to get involved.

DarkQuee1
September 20th, 2004, 05:20 PM
=Dani347Okay, I'm not saying this is good negotiating skills, but I do wonder if Daniel was telling the truth about that. He told the guy they were going to let him keep the money, but it seems Brit guy gave up the info before finding out if Daniel was on the level. Again, I don't know if this was correct procedure, but it's possible that Daniel didn't actually let him off the hook.

Anything (or everything!) is possible, but it's not what we saw or heard. Only what is on screen, in actions, set-up shots or dialogue, is canon. At this point, what TPTB have given us is that Daniel gave away the store.




Handling weapons isn't remotely within Daniel's area of expertise? Daniel has used weapons since the movie. Daniel's been on a front line team since the beginning of the show. He would have to stay earthbound if he didn't learn any battle skills.

I'm not saying that Daniel hasn't learned to shoot. Of course he has improved in eight years, which is a good thing, because he would be a liability (and probably removed from the team) if he was still unable to help defend the team in a firefight or if he had to be guarded all the time. Has he learned a few skills about staying alive in a firefight? He must have; he's still breathing!

However, being a foot soldier who shoots back only when he's shot at in the field, is very different from being part of an ops. This requires different training and skills--and we have seen neither Sam nor Daniel receive that training. OTOH, I agree with you that the demands of TV means that they will always want to put their main characters (and the actors they are paying the most!) front and center and so there will be things done that aren't always realistic.

That said, there is *less* unrealistic and *more* unrealistic. I have less trouble with Sam and Daniel going on the ops--esp as Jack/RDA won't be doing that stuff anymore--than I do with his taking on the interrogation duties. In the case of Sam and the Lt (Lockdown), Sam is still a Lt. Col questioning a subordinate officer about her actions and what she saw, knew and did (remember also that at this time, they knew that they were dealing with some*thing* that was moving around, so the Lt was not *personally* suspect of doing anything wrong).

Also, your statement about guns being within Daniel's expertise: I do take exception to that. Has he learned how to shoot a gun or rifle with some skill? Yes, of course. However, what else does he know about guns? Could he walk to a table with a variety of weapons on it and identify them? Doubt it. Could he take one apart and/or put one together? Doubt it. Does he know the capabilities, pros and cons of various weapons? Doubt it. Would he know which would be the right weapon--the right *tool*--in a particular situation? Doubt it.

Daniel can defend himself and his teammates in a fight, but there is no way that he is a weapons expert.



As far as skills that go outside just archeology and lingustics, Daniel was responsible for revisions to a treaty with the Tok'ra and earth. D&C. An inspired document. He had to have some skills to do that.

Again, I think this needs to be qualified. My impression of what happened there was that it was Daniel's *linguistic* skills that were impressive. I seriously doubt that he made the content decisions on what was wanted in the treaty or what wasn't liked--those would be made at a *much* higher lever even than Hammond. I think, however, that Daniel was responsible for taking the changes that the Pres and the Pentagon wanted and wording them in such a way that they would be acceptable to both sides.

There is no question that this *is* an important skill and is part of Daniel's overall usefulness (and contributions) to the SGC. It is not, however, the same as doing the negotiating. Notice that, at the beginning, when we saw the negotiations themselves going on, it was Jack and a member of the SGC's diplomatic team doing the negotiations for Earth; Daniel was not there.


As far as Rambo Jackson, I just don't see him using weapons any more than he had done before. Or being any more willing, since he's never been unwilling if it was the best option.

I do, to be honest. I see him using them more readily and, even more, being more willing to acknowledge the position that talk was not appropriate any longer or that it was too late to keep talking or that it would not work, than I did earlier in the series. (BTW, I've seen a lot of Daniel fans lately talking about "Action Jackson" themselves.)


eta: One last thing, then I promise I'm shutting up. I still find it funny that it appears that Daniel being an archeologist is the sticking point. Probably people don't mean it this way, but it's reading to me like him being an archeologist is a bigger strike than him being a civilian or not having the training. Like if he were military and an archeologist, he wouldn't be able to conduct an interrogation, or if he were a civillian but a historian, there'd be no problem with him doing it. Again, probably not what you all intend, but it reads like that (to me) when things like "and he's an archeologist, too!" come into the argument. Why not, "And, he's a linguist!"


There is no difference to me between being an archaeologist, historian or linguist, it's just that being an archaeologist has always appeared to be Daniel's primary interest (he seems more a linguist in order to promote his archaeological interests, rather than being a linguist first), so that's the term I used. Being a civilian and an archaeologist/historian/linguist, with no training or experience in doing things like interrogation is what is the problem for me, not just being an archaeologist.

OTOH, a military officer, who has been trained to do stuff like that and who is also an archaeologist--well, I probably wouldn't have a problem with that at all.


J.

DarkQuee1
September 20th, 2004, 05:24 PM
Yet another problem I had with Endgame: Why the heck didn't Sam, Daniel and Teal'c stay on board? There was only one Trust member left. Why didn't they take her out and capture the ship? Then turn it around and head home, with the gate, a living Trust member to interrogate (*not* by Daniel!<<g>>) and with the gas.

I really can't believe they got off and left the ship in the bad guys hands!


J.

DJFavorite
September 20th, 2004, 05:34 PM
Yet another problem I had with Endgame: Why the heck didn't Sam, Daniel and Teal'c stay on board? There was only one Trust member left. Why didn't they take her out and capture the ship? Then turn it around and head home, with the gate, a living Trust member to interrogate (*not* by Daniel!<<g>>) and with the gas.

I really can't believe they got off and left the ship in the bad guys hands!

Actually, wasn't it two Trust members to interrogate? I thought they only killed the one guy. The other was just knocked out.

I was a little disappointed they didn't take the ship, but it lends itself to another episode.

Jonisa
September 20th, 2004, 06:02 PM
Anything (or everything!) is possible, but it's not what we saw or heard. Only what is on screen, in actions, set-up shots or dialogue, is canon. At this point, what TPTB have given us is that Daniel gave away the store.


Daniel? By himself? I doubt that. Simply because A.) Daniel doesn't have the ability, knowledge, or access to that kind of financial information (the 2 million dollar account) so he must have been working with others who got that info, and he definitely doesn't have the authority to give that kind of money to Weaselly Area51 guy, or make that kind of deal on his own. I don't even know if Jack has that authority. I'm not exactly sure who does, to be honest. :confused: I imagine it'd be more than one person.

Anyway, if Daniel gave away the store, he more than likely walked in prepared to make that offer with the blessing of his superiors. Yes, we have to go by canon, but we also have to go by common sense. Does anyone seriously believe that Daniel could just waltz into the interrogation room, offer someone 2 million dollars and the government would smile and hand it over? Highly doubt it. Daniel isn't that naive. It had to be ok'd by someone.

He also said, "Didn't think we'd find out about that, did you?" That strongly implies, to me anyway, that there were a group of people discussing this account and how best to use this information. It definitely states that there were others involved. He wasn't doing this on his own. He was probably given the okay to do this by General Jack O'Neill, who trusted him enough to delegate the questioning to him. :p

I guess I don't get why this is such a big deal. If I had the time or inclination I could probably go through the episodes and find other instances where Sam or Daniel or someone else did things out of their area of expertise. It has to happen because the writers want to show us SG-1 and not Major Whozit doing these things. We don't care about Major Whozit.

And while I agree that there are other more qualified people out there to do the questioning, I just don't get that this is something that Daniel couldn't do, just because he's a <gasp> civilian, or (just) an archaeologist. He's one of the top echelon of the SGC, even if he isn't military. Jack trusts him. Is he the best choice if you're looking strictly at who has experience at this sort of thing? Nope. Is he a choice? I don't see why not, especially since they've established that civilians can have a leadership role at Stargate Command. And that is canon.

I think we're probably back to agreeing to disagree again. :)

All MHO, of course.

epiphany
September 20th, 2004, 06:24 PM
Well, it hasn't been said that he's been promoted and another way to look at it could be that Weir was gravitating toward Daniel simply because he was the most influential civilian there. She and Sam had a rather adversarial relationship. Teal'c was an alien that we never saw her interact with. Jack was...indisposed. So that left Daniel as the only person on the base who could advise her.

It is possible that she saw him as a second, it's also just as possible that Daniel was there and a resource to be plumbed. I seem to recall that she pretty much, well not quite bullied, but she did rather push him into assisting her when it seemed, to me, that he was rather reluctant to get involved.

That is one possible interpretation, I don't disagree with it. All I'm saying it, people keep saying he didn't have the authorization to do that, etc, etc, etc and I'm asking where do they get this? Simply because he's a civilian? Daniel wouldn't have been doing it without the authorization. He was interrogating the doctor because he had authority to do so. He was able to tell the military guards to leave the room on his say-because he HAS the authority to do so. The fact that he doesn't have a military rank doesn't mean he doesn't have the authority. And with regards to other questions, he can have authority over military personnel in a non-battle situation if he's been given authorization. Again we have no reason to believe he has not been.

From all appearances he is the highest ranking civilian in the program. We have no reason to believe otherwise, aside from when Weir was put in charge--there has been no civilian shown higher than him within the program. When Janet died, at her memorial, he stood next to Hammond, the highest ranking commissioned officer and Walter, who seems to be the highest ranking non-commissioned officer. It's most likely because he's the most senior civilian.

When he sat down and made the offer of allowing the guy to keep the $2 million, it did not seem off the cuff or grasping at straws to me. It seemed like something that he had at his disposal to put on the table to get this guy to talk. Otherwise he most likely wouldn't have been given the information about the $2 million in the first place. He was obviously working with others(we didn't see them but they were there in spirit:)). He couldn't have offered the 2 million without authorization and if he didn't have authorization, then he was simply making an empty promise to the guy to get him to talk because he'd have known he didn't have control over the funds. In either case, it was something at his disposal to use to get the guy to talk.

The fact that Daniel wasn't necessarily enthusiastic about helping Weir has absolutely nothing to do with his placement within the organzation. All I saw was that Daniel was really more eager to be trying to help Jack than to be sitting there helping her--certainly an understandable reason to be less than eager and for her to possibly have to do some cajoling, no matter what his actual "rank".

Daniel's been a negotiator for years, not a big leap in this situation. Daniel's training, pre-SG-1, does have plenty of skills which are transferrable--he'd have learned about body language, he'd have learned about finding the subtexts "between" the words that someone is saying, etc, etc. Intepretation of both human speech and human behavior were part and parcel of what was in his training in linguistics and anthrolopology. These are some of the main tools in an interrogator's tool box(unless one is expecting the shadeless lamp and brass knuckles:)).

As I recall Daniel may have said they could come to an arrangement on the money but did he actually promise Dr. Bricksdale he'd go free? He said they'd be able to protect him, that could mean alot of things in actual practice that don't involve the good doctor getting off scott-free. :) $2 million isn't necessarily going to do you much good if you don't have any place to spend it. :D

Questioning Walter and the other guy? We've seen SGC personnel questioned by civilians before(Heroes Part 2 comes to mind--Robert Picardo's character)--why does it suddenly become such a big deal when Daniel is the one who is doing it? They just needed to find out some basic information from Walter and this guy, they have the video tapes of what physically happened in the gateroom. It was probably more a formality than anything else.

epiphany
September 20th, 2004, 06:29 PM
Yet another problem I had with Endgame: Why the heck didn't Sam, Daniel and Teal'c stay on board? There was only one Trust member left. Why didn't they take her out and capture the ship? Then turn it around and head home, with the gate, a living Trust member to interrogate (*not* by Daniel!<<g>>) and with the gas.

I really can't believe they got off and left the ship in the bad guys hands!


J.

This may surprise you but I do agree on that. :) They could even have used it as a little cliffhanger(though it could have been completed within the single episode too).

I asked that myself as soon as the episode ended. Why didn't they stay on the ship? I'll just put it down to their actual mission was to recover the Stargate, not to capture the Alkesh or the Trust. That was their main focus and anything else was extra that they needn't "go out of their way" to do. They couldn't risk anything happening to the gate(so they could have just put the beacon on the gate so it could be beamed back to the Prometheus:)). But really I think they should have stayed on the ship.

Skydiver
September 20th, 2004, 06:48 PM
my main question all along has been a civilian interrogating members of the military.

__
Questioning Walter and the other guy? We've seen SGC personnel questioned by civilians before(Heroes Part 2 comes to mind--Robert Picardo's character)--why does it suddenly become such a big deal when Daniel is the one who is doing it? They just needed to find out some basic information from Walter and this guy, they have the video tapes of what physically happened in the gateroom. It was probably more a formality than anything else.

__

in the case of Picardo's character, the prez sent him. That gives him the authority. The prez sent weir, that gave her the authority.

I'm not saying that daniel may not have had authority. He may have. but we've never seen him getting it. we never saw jack say 'daniel, every single ranking officer on this base is busy, go take these guys' statements would ya?'

To me, it seems more the matter of something someone in base security needs to take care of. LIke Major Castleman or even COlonel Reynolds or another officer, just like we saw Sam talking to the lieutenant in lockdown

It's less a statement on daniel than it is a plot hole. I have a feeling that daniel's character was chosen more out of convenience than propriety. I would love to hear the input of some military folks.

I think daniel questioning is just like the plot hole of jack, seemingly, fearing for the gate being blown up, when we have long standing canon evidence that they're sturdy little things. if they can withstand a direct meteor hit, being frozen, being in vacuum for long periods, tossed into a sun(however long it lasted) and being exposed to black hole for several years, i think it's fairly safe to say that it would have survived getting blown up in the alkash.

If priority 1 was to recover the gate, that's what jack should have done. He's literally lucky that sg1 rescued the gate...cause if they hadn't, well jack would be looking for a new job right about now.

epiphany
September 20th, 2004, 06:56 PM
(BTW, I've seen a lot of Daniel fans lately talking about "Action Jackson" themselves.)

I think that name first came up during that episode with the Replicators and Daniel shooting the p-90(I always forget the titles, it was the one where Teal'c was brainwashed by Apophis:)).

As time has passed Daniel has become more "action" oriented, he's gotten better at the physical and military stuff. Why shouldn't he? He's been on the SGC's premier team for 8 years. People change. In fact I'd think it would be much more unrealistic if he'd stayed the same.

I think the direction of his change is fairly natural, given the situation he's in. Daniel's stubborn but he's also able to adjust to his environment. I'd go as far to say I think it's a testament that Daniel has remained as "Daniel" as he but it's a perfectly believeable progression to me that he'd become more "proactive". The fact that he'd changed more noticeably when he "came back" from the dead actually makes perfect sense.

He learned his life over again. He went from a blank slate to re-discovering his memories. He didn't know himself and he discovered himself again. He remembered who he was partly from the perspective of a stranger. He remembered dying a terribly painful death. He remembered everything he'd loved and hated and gained and lost. That would naturally give one a different point of view than when one simply lived those future memories in real time. I think a natural by-product of that could very well be to become more action oriented. However he still generally tries talking first. In Icon, he was trying in one form or another for nearly 6 weeks, then it went beyond talking. Daniel was never a pacifist. Daniel would always pick up a weapon and use it. He's been doing it since the film.

Jonisa
September 20th, 2004, 07:26 PM
I'm not saying that daniel may not have had authority. He may have. but we've never seen him getting it. we never saw jack say 'daniel, every single ranking officer on this base is busy, go take these guys' statements would ya?'


I guess I don't see why a scene like this is necessary. The writers aren't going to spell everything out for us. They rely on the fans to connect the dots and figure out cause and effect relationships.

The very fact that Daniel was in there questioning the prisoner tells us that he was given the authority to do that, either by Jack or someone else on the base. I highly doubt he was strolling down the hallway, noticed the room that Weasely Area51 guy was in and decided to go in there and question him all on his own. As soon as we see him in the room with the guy we know he was given the authority to do it. Why do we need a scene showing that? It'd be redundant.

I do agree with you about the gate, though. It's hard to believe that Jack was worried about it blowing up. Worried about Sam and Daniel, I can buy. Worried about the gate? Nah. You're right, he's very lucky it didn't go with the alkesh into hyperdrive.

greytop
September 20th, 2004, 07:51 PM
But won't a civilian be more apt to tell another civilian something than the military?

Chevron_nine
September 20th, 2004, 08:10 PM
I haven't had time to read through all the posts, so bare with me if i'm repeating anything.

I liked the episode, I thought it was probably one of the better episodes of the season. It had good action, and a story that combined a lot from past episodes.

People are complaining that the eps don't have the same feel as the early episodes. I have news for you, SG-1 will never be the same as it has been in the past, I believe the title of the season opener explains it best. There's a New Order at the SGC. Things have evolved. SG-1 has the most experience concerning all things gate-related, so they're the ones who get called when something goes wrong. They probably don't even go on first-contact missions anymore. That's also probably the reason Daniel was doing the interrogations. Even though he has no official rank i'm sure he's regarded as one of the higher ranking personnel. Sure, he probably doesn't doesn't have official training, but he sure likes to talk:)


Daniel can handle a gun. Didn't he make it through that Avatar videogame OK? We've also seen a few episodes like Enemies which shows he knows what he's doing when it comes to shooting a gun. I see no reason why he wouldn't be on the raid.


Any why do people need to complain about jack-liteness every week? We know he won't have a prominent role in most episodes, we all know he has a reduced schedule. Does it really matter all that much? Why did noone complain about hammond-liteness during the first seven seasons? Do we really need to see more of Jack looking tired as hell and looking like he's doing a half assed job? He'll get a few good jack-centric episodes this season and that's good enough for me.


And as for Sam's attire, doesn't SG-1 usually wear those black tank tops now?, especially Teal'c :) Concerning Sam's Matrix outfit I don't think she was actually planning on being a part of the second raid, she just saw where the bad guy escaped and took the opportunity to take him down alone. Notice how there weren't any other SWAT guys around her.


on a final note, YAY, we finally saw the interior of an Alkesh, now all that's left is the interior of a Goa'uld troop transport.

gwangung
September 20th, 2004, 09:00 PM
A few comments:

A) Daniel as the ops at the end...somewhat justifiable, as the ship responded to Ancient commands...which Daniel is an expert at.

B) Not going after the Trust operative at the end...sorry, justifiable. Number 1 objective is to get the Gate back. Once that's been done, THEN you go after the enemy...oh, wait...she's gone off into hyperspace. Could they have split the team? Well, maybe...but you're charging uphill here. The Trust lackey is in the control room; she's had opportunity to booby trap approaches to the control room...AND YOU DON'T KNOW HOW LONG THE HYPERSPACE TRIP IS. Take an hour to disable booby traps, and you're easily in deep doo doo, between the rock and the hard place, with enemies inside and outside.

C) Carter HAS to assume that there are other Trust operatives on the ship she hasn't seen. The evidence against that was not particularly overwhelming, and when in enemy territory, ASSUME THE WORST. (Ummm what if the Trust lackeys are smart enough to fake fewer people?).

D) Daniel interrogating the Area 51 scientist? Yeah, that's a bad one...that was obviously written for RDA.

E) Daniel taking the statement of Walter? Ah, sorry...not TOO out of the ordinary. He's obviously part of Jack's exec staff, and it's not that much of a stretch.

F) Carter's Emma Peel suit? Eck. I thought it was specialized Jaffa armor hiding anti-stun circuitry.

Albion
September 21st, 2004, 01:09 AM
However, being a foot soldier who shoots back only when he's shot at in the field, is very different from being part of an ops. This requires different training and skills--and we have seen neither Sam nor Daniel receive that training.

Do we have to? I'm with the earlier poster about fans having the intelligence to join the dots and not having to watch redundant scenes pointing out the obvious. Daniel has taken part in covert ops offworld for years now - I think he probably learned how to successfully sneak around on the job.


A) Daniel as the ops at the end...somewhat justifiable, as the ship responded to Ancient commands...which Daniel is an expert at.

Yup - a point Daniel actually made in the scene with Jack about why he should be the one to go.



Albion :)

Dani347
September 21st, 2004, 03:18 AM
D) Daniel interrogating the Area 51 scientist? Yeah, that's a bad one...that was obviously written for RDA.



Do you mean that it was a scene that should have been written for RDA, given Jack's position and Daniel's, or that it actually had been written for him, but they gave it to MS because of RDA's lack of screentime? Because, by this point, wouldn't they know what RDA's schedule was, and adjust accordingly? They could have written it where they managed to have Jack do the interrogation. Maybe even sacrifice some scene in another episode to make up the time.

Major Fischer
September 21st, 2004, 04:25 AM
I am of the opinion that the scene literally was written for RDA. There was nothing particularly 'Daniel' in the dialogue. The other possibility is that it was written for both Daniel and Jack to be present.

As for complaining about the Jack-Liteness, I think it comes down to one thing for me. I'm not overly attached to Jack. I don't think he's absolutely essential to the show. But what I do think is a disservice to the show, and to the fans, is that RDA doesn't seem to care about his lines when he is there. This epsiode in particular he was sleep walking through it, disconnected, and it showed. I think one reason lots of people are confused by the "touch choice" line is that he didn't really give any feeling to it.

Skydiver
September 21st, 2004, 04:45 AM
I happen to like Action Jackson, because, to me, if after 8 years he's still depending on the others to watch his back and take care of him....i'd be leaving him at home. He'd be dead weight.

It makes sense for him to have learned to defend himself, and to go on the offense if necessary. He's a smart man, he should have picked up some things in 8 years.

for most of s1, he was a liability and, had that continued, it would have gotten unbelievable. He would have been better suited to a second contact team, not allowed into a situation until it was secure so that he wouldn't endanger the rest of the team.

Action Jackson makes sense. Civilian Daniel doing the Security Cheif's job doesn't. Last we knew, Major CAstleman was in charge of base security. the gate vanishing is a security issue, so it should have been someone in the security department taking the statement.

It was probably done as a matter of convenience and budget, but, in my opinion, that was a scene that the security chief should have handled. Again, anyone with military contacts, could you ask them what the procedure is?

In the end, i think it's a plot hole, sort of like in Zero Hour and all of a sudden Dr lee is now a botanist too.

Feli
September 21st, 2004, 05:15 AM
Liked this episode - but I think the whole "Jack" issue needs to be looked at BIG PICTURE, rather than just in this episode. This whole season kind of has an arc going with Jack adjusting to being general. Yes, I think that he struggled with the decision of puting "his" team at risk. Yes, I think he was indecisive at critical times in this episode. But I think the key to his indecision wasn't necessarily "should I risk my friends' lives" - we've seen him make those decisions before with a lot less difficulty. I think that the big difference now is that he is making the decision, but not executing the plan. It's one thing to pull the trigger yourself and another to order someone else to pull the trigger. I think he is actually feeling LESS in control, because when he is in the field making decisions he is making them based on full knowledge of his own capabilities and potential for "making everything right" or dealing with the consequences himself. When he has made life and death decisions regarding his team in the past, he has been right there with them, ready to die himself if need be. Now he is in a bunker somewhere, basically powerless to actually help. I think that realization really hit him in this episode, and I think we will see some development in the second half of the season that addresses this.
Excellent insight, thank you!

keshou
September 21st, 2004, 06:51 AM
I am of the opinion that the scene literally was written for RDA. There was nothing particularly 'Daniel' in the dialogue. The other possibility is that it was written for both Daniel and Jack to be present.
That's my feeling too. It just didn't seem to be very "Daniel". I thought it might have been intended for Jack's character or for Robert Picardo's character (since he mentioned at a con he might be back in season 8).

I haven't read the whole meta-discussion in this thread but for me (and I'm a Daniel fan) the interrogation scene just kind of jarred and pulled me out of the show. The same way Sam's shiny pleather jacket jarred and pulled me out of the show. The same way Jacks "do you know anyone who voted for those two shrubs?" jarred and pulled me out of that scene back in Lost City. It happens.

I think was a natural evolution for Daniel to conduct negotiations and treaties with other planets. He's their first contact expert at the SGC and has specialized knowledge of these alien cultures. If they were on another planet and Sam was captured it would seem natural for Daniel to interrogate someone on that planet about Sam's whereabouts - he's gifted at understanding and relating to other cultures whereas Jack is not.

It seemed to be a forced evolution for Daniel to be interrogating Area 51 criminal British guy - dictated by budget and actor availability. I can see Daniel being in the room - and maybe he was intended to be there to hear the revelation about his part in the deal - but it seemed a little odd otherwise. I didn't care about the offering of money. That's a small price to pay to get Sam and the gate back, plus stopping the Trust. I'd be surprised if Daniel wasn't authorized for that. I can see Jack playing that scene the same way - except he'd probably call the guy a "little weasel". :)



As for complaining about the Jack-Liteness, I think it comes down to one thing for me. I'm not overly attached to Jack. I don't think he's absolutely essential to the show. But what I do think is a disservice to the show, and to the fans, is that RDA doesn't seem to care about his lines when he is there. This epsiode in particular he was sleep walking through it, disconnected, and it showed. I think one reason lots of people are confused by the "touch choice" line is that he didn't really give any feeling to it.
I think RDA still gets up for the shows where his character is the focus and he gets a linear timeline to film all the scenes. He seemed connected to the changes introduced for Jack in Zero Hour. However I don't think RDA's particularly adept at filming all these little scenes out of sequence that are later inserted into numerous episodes.

But you know, I give him some leeway because RDA has continued to make this show long after he wanted to quit. He's there to help the franchise and keep a lot of other cast and crew members employed because MGM and Scifi said they wouldn't go forward without him. If he doesn't feel like putting a lot of feeling into some of his scenes and is tired of playing the role I can kind of understand.

the adventurer
September 21st, 2004, 07:07 AM
Personaly I see Daniel as trying to fill Jack's shoes. I think it's a character thing, he's going head long into danger more often (beaming up to the Cloked ship armed for a bear). He's trying to be more of a Hardass to fill Jack's place on the team.

Dani347
September 21st, 2004, 07:31 AM
That's my feeling too. It just didn't seem to be very "Daniel". I thought it might have been intended for Jack's character or for Robert Picardo's character (since he mentioned at a con he might be back in season 8).

How far back was this episode written?




I'd be surprised if Daniel wasn't authorized for that. I can see Jack playing that scene the same way - except he'd probably call the guy a "little weasel". :)


Well, I would think Daniel would have a go ahead from Jack before promising anything.

keshou
September 21st, 2004, 08:09 AM
How far back was this episode written?
Darren had a little blurb about JM revealing an upcoming episode called "Endgame" in a May 6th article on Gateworld. So I guess it was being written about that time and then filmed prior to July when they went on hiatus.

I think this may have been mentioned somewhere back in this very long thread - but another actor that it would have seemed logical to use in that scene was Colin Cunningham - "Major Davis". He had a small role in "Zero Hour" that was kind of a waste. I always enjoy seeing Major Davis and would have rather seen him in Endgame than Zero Hour. But again, their production schedule is probably so challenging that what seems logical to me may be totally impossible in reality.

Skydiver
September 21st, 2004, 09:43 AM
I think this may have been mentioned somewhere back in this very long thread - but another actor that it would have seemed logical to use in that scene was Colin Cunningham - "Major Davis". He had a small role in "Zero Hour" that was kind of a waste. I always enjoy seeing Major Davis and would have rather seen him in Endgame than Zero Hour. But again, their production schedule is probably so challenging that what seems logical to me may be totally impossible in reality.

yeah, cutie pie woulda worked, same with castleman, reynolds, which are two established characters.

right or wrong, it just jarred. Same as dr lee all of a sudden being an expert in botany or, as someone mentined, sam doing the post mortem on the kull warrior.

THE BIG UNIT
September 21st, 2004, 02:10 PM
I didnt mind the scene but i agree someone else should have done the interrigation scene. I have noticed that characters, especially the Science one like Sam and Dr Lee sometimes go out of there field. As for sam doing the post mortem on the kull warrior, we learned from the season 2 episode Bane that she worked under genetesist timothy harlow for a year at the Pentagon, so she might have learned how to do that there. the main reason the main characters go out of there field is because we want to see them on the screen, not new people, and alot of fans and TPTB like the Dr Lee character, it was probably more effective from a fans point of view to watch someone we already know.

Major Fischer
September 21st, 2004, 02:19 PM
I figured since the episode thread seems to be getting a little far from the actual episode discussion I'd start one specifically on the subject of people going outside of their fields.

The SGC Staff, or lack there of. (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=4488)

Personally I think it was a stretch in Bane for her to have been working for a geneticist, and that doesn't explain why she'd know how to do the work with the kull warrior.

Chirp
September 21st, 2004, 08:04 PM
All I can say at this point of the 2 parter is this, I can't believed they brought back the team in one piece or peace (take your pick of the two words), and the gate too! Was this a real cliffhanger or not? I think this would have been good for a ending instead of a middle. But then again I'm just the audieance not the maker of the show. Was Jacob on that planet that they skip?

Major Fischer
September 21st, 2004, 08:07 PM
All I can say at this point of the 2 parter is this, I can't believed they brought back the team in one piece or peace (take your pick of the two words), and the gate too! Was this a real cliffhanger or not? I think this would have been good for a ending instead of a middle. But then again I'm just the audieance not the maker of the show. Was Jacob on that planet that they skip?

Ah, this wasn't a two part episode, or a cliffhanger.

Shivan
September 21st, 2004, 08:26 PM
It got what it deserved review wise- 3/4

So Major Fischer, we appreciate you tearing the episode to shreds. But it isn't necessary anymore!

Major Fischer
September 21st, 2004, 08:29 PM
Please don't be snide. I'm not the only one who disliked the episode.

majorsal
September 21st, 2004, 08:42 PM
spoilers for s7's evolution part one (i think)

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Personally I think it was a stretch in Bane for her to have been working for a geneticist, and that doesn't explain why she'd know how to do the work with the kull warrior.

I didn't think Sam was doing an autopsy on the kull warrior, just studying the tech and removing it. Jacob was there with her, doing the same thing. I didn't even question anything being weird until I read some others opinions on it. It 'looked' autopsy-like, but it really didn't seem like one to me.

Sally :)

Major Fischer
September 21st, 2004, 08:52 PM
It 'looked' autopsy-like, but it really didn't seem like one to me.

I actually don't really have a problem with Sam as a character, or even this part. I was trying to address Sam at the same time as I was addressing the problems with the usage of Daniel in this episode mainly out of respect for the fact that other people do have a problem with Sam.

Corgano
September 21st, 2004, 09:30 PM
When I started watching this episode, I really liked it! It was fun, there was enough action and the story was also quite interesting...until...

... until Sam, Teal'c and Daniel just descided to leave the Goauld ship!

My first reaction was :eek: my second reaction was :eek: and my third reaction was :mad:

Let me explain, why I think, that the ending of this episode was REALLY stupid:

Let's imaginate the following situation:

It's 1980. A group of rougue US agents managed to steal lots of US nukes, the only copy of the top secret launch codes for ALL US Nukes and also aquired a high tech, experimental sowjet submarine (let's call it "Osiris Ship" :D ).
And now they start lauching the stolen nukes at the Sowjet union, killing millions of people. The US military manages to get some operatives on board the stolen high tech sub and they manage to get the stolen US launch codes back and call in the US navy.

The operatives on board know, that there is probably only one rougue agent left on board. They also know, that there are still a lot of nukes on board. And they know, that after some time, even without the launch codes, the rougue agents will find a way to launch the rest of the nukes they have stolen, continuing a devastating nuklear war!
And finally they know, that this high tech russian submarine is very important for finding a way to defend the US against other such subs and, that this sub will escape, if they cannot stop it...


The one million $ question is:
WHAT WOULD THESE BRAVE OPERATIVES (let's call them "SG-1" :D ) DO?

Would they all just leave the sub, waiting for the US fleet to pick them up and letting the bad guys (who just started a nuklear war) escape with a hightech sub and the rest of the nukes?

OR

would they just send the launch codes (codename "Stargate" :D ) back to the US navy and try to capture, sabotage or even destroy the sub, even if it means risking their lives (a situation they already have had several times) ?

Well... though descition! :rolleyes:

PS: The fact, that the Prometeus could start firing on Osiris ship, when it powered up the hyperdrive, also is NO reason for SG-1 to leave the ship! They could have send the gate plus Daniel back, to explain the situation, while Sam and Teal'C try to capture the ship!

PPS: I hope, you understand, what I want to tell you. Unfortunately my english is quite bad. :o

YodaMate
September 21st, 2004, 10:53 PM
I quite enjoyed this episode, mostly for its ability to draw on numerous threads : shedding light on the conspiracy's newest activities (including explaining what they were up to in Affinity), the Tok'ra symbiote poison story from three years ago that had been dumped (i was jumping for joy when it was mentioned a few weeks ago), the results of Thor's meeting with the President and the ever-improving capabilities of Prometheus, the Alpha Site and Area 51 made appearances, we got to see a Tok'ra again and check in with the rebel Jaffa, as well as explain where the hell Osiris left her ship from a year ago.

(exhales heavily) whoa, that's a lot of stuff. That they were able to fit it all in, avoid a cliffhanger and keep the story moving more or less smoothly is a great effort. Like, i said, i enjoyed it.

Now let the counter-nit-picking begin ! :)

Firstly, my major concern at the end was why didn't SG-1 take down that conspiracy woman and return triumphant with all the loot. One look at Teal'c and his staff would have made anyone surrender ;) Then i realised the obvious, the ship was getting ready to jump to hyperspace so SG-1 would have been expecting the Prometheus to blast the ship at any moment (and it didn't only because of Jack's indecision, but more comment on that later), so it was far more prudent to get themselves and the Gate off the ship ASAP

Sam's clothes have taken more than a few knocks here, so let's address those concerns ; in the warehouse raid, contrary to some people's beliefs, Sam and Danny were wearing kevlar vests on top of their black tops. Go back and see for yourselves if you don't believe me. Perhaps they felt more comfortable in jeans and didn't bother bringing a vestful of equipment seeing as they had a goodly number of SWAT members who already had that gear.

The second, and far more controversial, outfit of Sam's is actually more useful than some think (of course, i wasn't thinking practicality at the time). Her taste in leather jackets nonwithstanding, wearing clearly non-military clothes suited the plan ; they didn't have a trap in place, they were just following the spooked scientist until he met with the target. The clearly distinguished SWATs start chasing him whilst Sam heads him off. If he glimpsed Sam whilst on the run, he would have thought "civilian in sexy jacket.. fool, focus on your pursuers" not "another SWAT, must avoid at all costs". He might have even run right past Sam and she could have given him the coat hanger treatment :)

Haven't read all the topic, but someone mentioned how M'zel mentioned tretonin in Death Knell. I saw that episode recently and he was actually saying how he recognised the importance of tretonin to the Jaffa's future, not stating that he was on it. That added to the suspense; when the missile went off, i found myself hoping that M'zel was on tretonin and it was very sad to see him die, really brought the Jaffa tragedy of the attacks home in a way that Sam wasn't able to in her discussions with her captors. Also, someone pointed out the apparent plot hole that the Trust have a ship but didn't nick another Gate. Actually their actions make a lot of sense ; in the past the SGC's ability to bring in alien, particularly Asgard, assitance to counter the conspiracy has helped them prevail. Though Thor's sensors couldn't see past the cloak, they can't maintain the cloak in hyperspace, where the Asgard can easily detect them. So, a) they're taking sensible precuations by staying in the solar system and b) by stealing the Earth gate (as opposed to any other gate) they have a better chance at hiding their actions from Earth and the Asgard for longer. It's as if someone on the conspiracy has finally developed a brain cell or two.

A lot of people have complained about Daniel not fulfilling a very archeological role and trying to take over from Jack. I actually liked seeing him in the role of interrogator, but technically it was Jack's call and he might have thought Danny had a better chance at securing the scientist's co-operation quickly through a 'softer' approach. Also, having Danny conduct the interviews with the tech guys was clearly a signal to them that they weren't been blamed, at least not by Jack, even if they didn't pick up on it at first. Daniel's decision to go rambo made sense : he had the best chance of hacking into the computer, deactivating the cloak and locking the bad guys out of the ship's controls (hence rectifying his error from a few weeks ago). Of course, he wasn't able to and had to revert to a very Jack-like action of blasting the cloak crystals and going after the hyperdrive himself. That he was so easily zatted will give Daniel something to think about in addition to his guilt over the hostage-translating issue.

To Jack himself, the burden of command clearly weighed down heavily. It's not just not having all the fun and having to do the paperwork. He is faced with having to approve insane plans and not been there to ensure their success. If Teal'c hadn't dialed in when he did, the plan would have failed for Jack's absence. He also has to make the hard decisions, and I like how he's struggling with it. This is another issue left open for the second half of the season. We have to live with RDA's schedule but i'll settle for less-Jack in some eps and getting powerful character issues/growth and full-on Jack in others like Zero Hour and Lockdown. Compared to the handling of Jack's absence in recent seasons, the way they're doing it in Season 8 is working quite well.

Sorry, that was a lot longer than planned. But all in all, the episode is far more technically consistent than some would believe, and left a number of issues to be resolved in the second half of the season (such as the fallout from the attacks from Baal and Jaffa-Tauri relations, Jack's command indecision, the conspiracy's next move now they finally have a ship) that i'm looking forward to.

ShadowMaat
September 22nd, 2004, 03:52 AM
Just popping in to remind folks that an opinion is called an opinion for a reason. It isn'tbased on fact, thus, it can be neither "wrong" nor "right".

Me, I thought Endgame was a decent ep, but not good enough to discuss in any detail. I spent most of the ep cleaning my computer and there wasn't much about the ep to draw me away from doing that (as opposed to The Storm, where I actually sat down and watched the whole thing). When I stop and think about what actually happened... it all smacks too much of convenience and relying on smart characters to do incredibly stupid things, which I despise. That takes it down a bit in my personal estimation.

Then again, at least it's a plot-driven ep and not another ridiculous waste of time focusing on someone's personal life. :P

Shivan
September 22nd, 2004, 06:46 AM
I actually don't really have a problem with Sam as a character, or even this part. I was trying to address Sam at the same time as I was addressing the problems with the usage of Daniel in this episode mainly out of respect for the fact that other people do have a problem with Sam.

The whole team is fantastic.

Sam
Teal'c
Jack
Daniel

There is nothing wrong with any of them. You know, I have never been so dedicated to a TV show in my life. That says something about this show. It puts it above all other TV shows I have ever watched. So even when we get an episode that isn't that great I am still overly excited because of the simple fact of it being Stargate! From the first season I have come to LOVE(REALLY LOVE) the characters in the show. That hasn't changed because of the events taking place recently.

This show is the best show on TV. Period.

ShadowMaat
September 22nd, 2004, 08:55 AM
Shivan, being dedicated to a show is great. I'm glad you've found something you love so much. But just because YOU think something is so fantastically perfect that it can do no wrong EVER doesn't mean that other people aren't entitled to think differently and it doesn't give you nor anyone else a right to tell people they're wrong. As I said, it's called an OPINION for a reason. Opinion means "to think", it doesn't mean "sworn fact".

Everyone is allowed to think what they want about the show. Everyone is allowed to say what they want about the show- as long as they're polite about it. From what I've seen on this thread, folks have been doing just that- expressing their opinions in polite and constructive ways. But when you make it personal and start singling out fans and groups and condemning them for having the wrong opinion... what's the use of that? It's a bboard, people are going to disagree. It's only natural when dealing with humans. ;)

Endgame could have been a much better ep- in my opinion. It was good as is, but it could have been better and in past years, I think it WOULD have been better. I don't care for what I see as lazy writing- making things convenient for the plot instead of making them logical or in character. I also disagree with the increase in pandering to characters/actors. Scenes should be written because they're integral to the plot or to character development. They shouldn't be written just to allow someone some grandstanding. Unless it's a goa'uld. You expect it of them. ;)

Because I didn't find Endgame perfect, does that make me wrong? Does that make me a bad person? I don't think so. I've had a lot of problems with the show over the past few years and I haven't been shy about expressing my feelings. Just because I- and others- have had less than positive things to say doesn't mean we are less worthy than those who have positive things to say, it doesn't make us lesser fans because we don't like things and it doesn't make ANY of us wrong.

If you prefer a whitewashed forum where no one ever has a bad thing to say and where everything is rainbows and sunshine all the time, you're probably in the wrong forum. If you like it here anyway, then either you- and certain others- need to learn to be more accepting of differing viewpoints or you need to start putting anyone who disagrees with you on ignore instead of always making an issue out of it.

I think that what Sam did, zatting the leader guy and then beaming herself up without backup and without telling anyone what she was doing was incredibly asinine and un-Samlike. That's my opinion. Some have no problem with that and that's fine. I did. So sue me. :P

Skydiver
September 22nd, 2004, 09:27 AM
I think that what Sam did, zatting the leader guy and then beaming herself up without backup and without telling anyone what she was doing was incredibly asinine and un-Samlike. That's my opinion. Some have no problem with that and that's fine. I did. So sue me. :P

i didn't think she did it on purpose. She shot the guy, was searching him, picked up the locator thingie and whoops, bad timing, found herself beamed up

up to this point in time, they had no proof of how the baddies were beaming, just suspicion.

ShadowMaat
September 22nd, 2004, 09:28 AM
i didn't think she did it on purpose. She shot the guy, was searching him, picked up the locator thingie and whoops, bad timing, found herself beamed up

up to this point in time, they had no proof of how the baddies were beaming, just suspicion.
It looked to me like she hit the button intentionally. But that's my opinion. :P

ckwongau
September 22nd, 2004, 11:55 AM
Why did the Trust steal the Earth Stargate, i mean they got an Al'kesh with hyperdrive, cloaking device, and beaming technology.
If they were using the offworld gate to lunch the attack , then no one will be anywiser until they done the maximium damage.

Major Maybourne was smart enougn to put a offworld team out before they lost the beta gate, they were able to steal and smuggle tech and fax the design back with NID's modify Goa'uld orb, i wonder if the Trust bought any orb onboard, i mean witht he orb, they could continue keep contact with their allies on Earth.

And how come X-303 or SGC or Alpha install the NID orb we saw on "Shade of Grey" for emergency only ,i know it is not secure, but if anything happen to SGC, Earth lost all contact with the offworld base , in S6 "Momento" x303 lost all contact with Earth when they eject the hyperdrive, and they almost could find the buried Stargate.

Major Fischer
September 22nd, 2004, 12:12 PM
Major Maybourne was smart enougn to put a offworld team out before they lost the beta gate...

Not to put too fine a point on it, but he was never a major on the series, he was a colonel. And now he's neither.

jckfan55
September 22nd, 2004, 04:29 PM
i didn't think she did it on purpose. She shot the guy, was searching him, picked up the locator thingie and whoops, bad timing, found herself beamed up

up to this point in time, they had no proof of how the baddies were beaming, just suspicion.

That's the way I saw it. I guess that's something to look at again while we're waiting for new episodes.

greytop
September 23rd, 2004, 02:15 PM
I must say howeve that I'm bias towards any episode that involves lots of reoccuring minor characters, and just hearing Pierce mentioned let along seeing him is enough to get me to enjoy an episode. I like it that the writers have chosen to keep the other people at the SGC consistent. We had a lot of Major Pierce in Season 5 and 6, and that switched over to Colonel Reynolds throughout Season 7 and early Season 8. It's good to see that the writers haven't forgotten about good ol' Major Pierce and, more importantly, they've chosen to promote him!
I'm glad somebody else notice Pierce in the episode! :)

gwangung
September 23rd, 2004, 08:46 PM
Why did the Trust steal the Earth Stargate, i mean they got an Al'kesh with hyperdrive, cloaking device, and beaming technology.
If they were using the offworld gate to lunch the attack , then no one will be anywiser until they done the maximium damage.

Well, who has a vested interest in stopping them AND knows a lot about their internal workings and methods? SGC, right? Stealing their stargate would put a crimp in SGC capabilities....