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View Full Version : Was the Wraith/Ancient war, the Ancients Vietnam War?



mahram
June 1st, 2006, 02:53 PM
I think the best analogy to describe the wraith/ancient war is the vietnam war. The viet cong werent as advanced or as powerful as the americans. In fact every facet of technology, whether it was ground,air or sea the americans were more advanced. In fact they lost every single major battle. Just like the ancients in the wraith war. The hologram said, those they won every battle, they were just overwhelmed in numbers. Just like the vietnam war, tired of war, and overwhelmed by numbers the ancients left. that is the best way to describe the wraith/ancient war.

On another note I wish the writers of the show didnt hype up tacitly during the first half of the season that the wraith could have been more powerful then the ancients. As the seasons went by, it turned out tobe more of a vietnam war scenerio.

ckwongau
June 1st, 2006, 03:54 PM
No,The Hologram said the Ancient ship is superior on a one to one match, it they had won every battle they won't lost the war.
vietnam war is not a good analogy, the Ancient/Wraith war is between two species fighting for dominant ,it was evolution not politic.


The American left the Vietnam, but the Vietnamese people's living standard and life did get better in the long run.
The Ancient left the human at the mercy of Wriath,Pegasus 's life get worst and worst.
The Wraith War is more similar to WW2, when nations were fighting for their own survival .Race and countries were almost facing extinction.
If Japanese had won the war, they would have wipe out as much of the Chinese race as possiblie to ensure their dominance.
The rape of Nanking, the germ warfare experiment on chinese ,the rape and all were design to destory the Chinese race .
If Hilter had won, Jews or minorities in Europe would be wipe out ,for the German master race.

muffhead
June 1st, 2006, 04:23 PM
Excellent posts and ideas from both of you.

At first I would tend to agree more with ckwongau, because the wraith were out to eat and destroy anyone who was not a wraith. So in a sense the ancients were fighting to survive, not so much as to *win* a war.

However on the other hand, I also agree with mahram in regards to the reference about the vietnam war. I agree with him/her because of the technological advantage that the ancients have.

Either way, I love this topic and I think Season 3 is going to blow away some of our preconceived notions about the past and mythology of the series in regards to the ancients.

edain
June 1st, 2006, 05:08 PM
You said the Ancients were fighting to survive, but aren't the wraith in the same boat? It's not like they can go to the local 7-11 and grab some human energy off the shelf. By feeding off of humans they are basically acting the same way we do with cattle, which sounds really harsh and undeserving, but it's true. Can you blame the lion for hunting the wilderbeast or the bear for eating the salmon? Now granted, these animals are not sentient in the sense of the word as we are, but all the wraith are trying to do is survive, albeit in a very scary and sadistic manner. I think a good question is would we view the wraith in the same manner as we do now if they were discreet in their feeding habits and did not make such a big sport about it, maybe like the lion and the wilderbeast. I knwo they don't kill everyone, but they do in such a grandiose manner that they come off as arrogant and submissive. I put it to you again: would the perception of the wraith be any different if they were not so evil about their 'feeding' habits?

Ltcolshepjumper
June 1st, 2006, 05:45 PM
I think a good question is would we view the wraith in the same manner as we do now if they were discreet in their feeding habits and did not make such a big sport about it, maybe like the lion and the wilderbeast. I know they don't kill everyone, but they do in such a grandiose manner that they come off as arrogant and submissive. I put it to you again: would the perception of the wraith be any different if they were not so evil about their 'feeding' habits?
An even broader question-would we view them the same way if they didn't have their current technological advancements?

edain
June 1st, 2006, 05:51 PM
That's a loaded question. You can't blaim a species for advancing their lives with technology. If you did then it's the possible to view the Asgard or the Nox in the same light. I think the Nox are being VERY selfish and arrogant in the way they treat other species. It's not so much the level of the technology, but what you do with it. The wraith merely invented ships to find other feeding grounds(the Indians didn't migrate because they liked living in teepees), but they are so sadistic and evil in their way of doing things. That's what makes them bad.

Cycrow
June 1st, 2006, 06:22 PM
No,The Hologram said the Ancient ship is superior on a one to one match, it they had won every battle they won't lost the war.
vietnam war is not a good analogy, the Ancient/Wraith war is between two species fighting for dominant ,it was evolution not politic.


actaully it was said that the ancients did win almost every battle, the lost the war because they saw no end to it so they left.

it was said in the Seige when sheppard was showing the cornel the holigram of the war

LORD MONK
June 1st, 2006, 09:40 PM
I think the best analogy to describe the wraith/ancient war is the vietnam war. The viet cong werent as advanced or as powerful as the americans. In fact every facet of technology, whether it was ground,air or sea the americans were more advanced. In fact they lost every single major battle. Just like the ancients in the wraith war. The hologram said, those they won every battle, they were just overwhelmed in numbers. Just like the vietnam war, tired of war, and overwhelmed by numbers the ancients left. that is the best way to describe the wraith/ancient war.

On another note I wish the writers of the show didnt hype up tacitly during the first half of the season that the wraith could have been more powerful then the ancients. As the seasons went by, it turned out tobe more of a vietnam war scenerio.
You can use this because it is what happend when you look at it as a military lesson. That is exactly what happend. The Ancients and Americas won every battle but the numbers where so great and left. Although both are different circumestances.

Harekin
June 3rd, 2006, 03:54 PM
Nah I dont think its like the Vietnam War...the Ancients were defending themselves, thus they had a right to be there...unlike the USA in Vietnam.

mahram
June 4th, 2006, 11:02 AM
well from my point of view was from how the wars were fought similarily. Like how the ancients could win every major battle, but could never seem to win the war. The reason there was just too many viet cong to kill. Like the ancients, they won every battle, but the wraith overwhelmed and tired them out. The ancients gave up b/c of sheer exhaustion. Just like the americans during the viet nam war. The americans were the superpower in the air,sea, and land. But it was a like a bug that just kept nagging at them, that they eventually said this isnt worth it. And just left. Like I said, I just hated the fact the writers hyped up the fact that the wraith were more advanced then the ancients. i wished they used the ori instead of the wraith.


No,The Hologram said the Ancient ship is superior on a one to one match, it they had won every battle they won't lost the war.
vietnam war is not a good analogy, the Ancient/Wraith war is between two species fighting for dominant ,it was evolution not politic.


The American left the Vietnam, but the Vietnamese people's living standard and life did get better in the long run.
The Ancient left the human at the mercy of Wriath,Pegasus 's life get worst and worst.
The Wraith War is more similar to WW2, when nations were fighting for their own survival .Race and countries were almost facing extinction.
If Japanese had won the war, they would have wipe out as much of the Chinese race as possiblie to ensure their dominance.
The rape of Nanking, the germ warfare experiment on chinese ,the rape and all were design to destory the Chinese race .
If Hilter had won, Jews or minorities in Europe would be wipe out ,for the German master race.

Morpheus88
June 4th, 2006, 05:04 PM
I like this topic gives some good points of view. Although you are right about what Sheppard said it wasn't that the ancients couldn't win, his exact words was:

"No matter how many wraith ships they destroyed, more kept coming. They could win almost every batter, but they saw no way to win the war. So they submerged the city and left."

Kinda a scary thought that the ancients destroyed so many of them but more of the wraith kept coming for them. You would think they would eventually run out of wraith to come after them. But its curious as to how the wraith are so great numbers to me since I don't understand how they become wraith. All I have seen is the bug they say eventually took form of the things it fed on. dosn't seem like it could create so many of them.

mahram
June 5th, 2006, 07:36 AM
well we know the ancients could of won the war easily. They could have used that life recreation machine. The same machine anubis was going to use. The ancients could have said, f this, enought is enought and wiped out all life in the galaxy. And restarted again.

I like this topic gives some good points of view. Although you are right about what Sheppard said it wasn't that the ancients couldn't win, his exact words was:

"No matter how many wraith ships they destroyed, more kept coming. They could win almost every batter, but they saw no way to win the war. So they submerged the city and left."

Kinda a scary thought that the ancients destroyed so many of them but more of the wraith kept coming for them. You would think they would eventually run out of wraith to come after them. But its curious as to how the wraith are so great numbers to me since I don't understand how they become wraith. All I have seen is the bug they say eventually took form of the things it fed on. dosn't seem like it could create so many of them.

sarge
June 5th, 2006, 08:11 AM
Interesting the analogy…
I think the premise is correct, especially if you consider the possibility that the Ancient (like the Americans) simply lost the WILL to fight. I don’t think they (Ancients or Americans) lost the ability to win the war just the desire to continue with it.

Cycrow
June 8th, 2006, 07:49 PM
well the ancients never wanted a war, they wanted peace

so just leaving was the best option for them to find peace

mahram
June 10th, 2006, 06:55 PM
well I still think they should have left the humans some advanced weopens to defeat the wraith.


well the ancients never wanted a war, they wanted peace

so just leaving was the best option for them to find peace

ussrelativity
June 12th, 2006, 08:48 PM
I do not believe that the Wraith/Ancient war could be comparable to Vietnam.

For one thing, America had the power to defeat, shall I say, destroy the North Vietnamese easily. The problem was that our military was put under considerable constraints by Washington, D.C, and also that we had a media that took the side of the enemy.

I don't think that the Ancients had so much of a televised media, do you? Or rather, one that would side with the enemy.

sarge
June 13th, 2006, 04:47 AM
I do not believe that the Wraith/Ancient war could be comparable to Vietnam.

For one thing, America had the power to defeat, shall I say, destroy the North Vietnamese easily. The problem was that our military was put under considerable constraints by Washington, D.C, and also that we had a media that took the side of the enemy.

I don't think that the Ancients had so much of a televised media, do you? Or rather, one that would side with the enemy.

Your point is valid but …

I think both the US and the Ancients had the ability to defeat their enemy, just –through a series of bad choices—lost the desire to fight. We could have easily wasted North Vietnam (one really big bomb) and the Ancients could have used their life creation thingy and wasted everything in Pegasus, but neither wanted to live with the consequences. So we chose to fight a limited war against an enemy that fought a total war…and we know what happened.

mahram
June 14th, 2006, 03:33 PM
well my point was that I thought the ancients had the power to destroy all the wraith easily. but like another poster said, it came down to ethics. The ancients could have easily used that life creation machine and said , screw this, lets start from scratch. And poof all the wraith are gone. no lost of life to the atlateans. Except it would have cost billions of human lives.

but I also think its a double edge sword. Assuming the pegasus galaxy was filled with billions of lives, the pegasus only has millions of lives now.

Would it be more ethical to wipe out all life again and start from scratch, or to condemn billions to death by the most horrible way?




I do not believe that the Wraith/Ancient war could be comparable to Vietnam.

For one thing, America had the power to defeat, shall I say, destroy the North Vietnamese easily. The problem was that our military was put under considerable constraints by Washington, D.C, and also that we had a media that took the side of the enemy.

I don't think that the Ancients had so much of a televised media, do you? Or rather, one that would side with the enemy.

Peoples_General
June 14th, 2006, 11:53 PM
No,The Hologram said the Ancient ship is superior on a one to one match, it they had won every battle they won't lost the war.
vietnam war is not a good analogy, the Ancient/Wraith war is between two species fighting for dominant ,it was evolution not politic.


The American left the Vietnam, but the Vietnamese people's living standard and life did get better in the long run.
The Ancient left the human at the mercy of Wriath,Pegasus 's life get worst and worst.
The Wraith War is more similar to WW2, when nations were fighting for their own survival .Race and countries were almost facing extinction.
If Japanese had won the war, they would have wipe out as much of the Chinese race as possiblie to ensure their dominance.
The rape of Nanking, the germ warfare experiment on chinese ,the rape and all were design to destory the Chinese race .
If Hilter had won, Jews or minorities in Europe would be wipe out ,for the German master race.

You misunderstand the analogy. He's talking about it from a purely military perspective. It has nothing to do with politics or survival for the need of food, but about HOW the war was fought... not WHY it was fought. There's a difference between the HOW and the WHY.

Jimbo-DR
June 15th, 2006, 07:27 AM
You misunderstand the analogy. He's talking about it from a purely military perspective. It has nothing to do with politics or survival for the need of food, but about HOW the war was fought... not WHY it was fought. There's a difference between the HOW and the WHY.

In that case I pretty much agree. It seems the Lanteans never really perceived how the Wraith could be a threat until it was too late.

Still, I'm sure that the Ancients kicked the living crap out of the Wraith until they just got bored of the fighting.

SmallTimePerson
June 16th, 2006, 05:41 AM
You misunderstand the analogy. He's talking about it from a purely military perspective. It has nothing to do with politics or survival for the need of food, but about HOW the war was fought... not WHY it was fought. There's a difference between the HOW and the WHY.
From a "MILITARY" perspective they Ancient-Wraith war and the American-Vietnam war are similar, although they have major differences.
1. The ancients pratically lost by wipe-out (they won the battles but couldn't keep the numbers off) whilst America because public opnion forced them away
2. The ancient superiority in Ancient tech was diminished by numbers, while American superiority in tech was diminished through simple solutions
3. America had the capability to commit genocide and destroy the vietnamese people, if public opnion was in their favour, whilst the Ancients lacke that capability (assuming they weren't able to 'reboot' the life in pegasus as the had already lost that planet)

I could be wrong though (most likely option)

Lord Shiva
June 20th, 2006, 07:03 AM
I think the best analogy to describe the wraith/ancient war is the vietnam war. The viet cong werent as advanced or as powerful as the americans. In fact every facet of technology, whether it was ground,air or sea the americans were more advanced. In fact they lost every single major battle. Just like the ancients in the wraith war. The hologram said, those they won every battle, they were just overwhelmed in numbers. Just like the vietnam war, tired of war, and overwhelmed by numbers the ancients left. that is the best way to describe the wraith/ancient war.

On another note I wish the writers of the show didnt hype up tacitly during the first half of the season that the wraith could have been more powerful then the ancients. As the seasons went by, it turned out tobe more of a vietnam war scenerio.

No, big difference was that Vietnam was the first war that the US media was able to get real footage of what war could become (video of blood, violence, bodies, death), and started airing that on television. The US public saw what "real war" was like and blanched.. then support for the war wavered, not just by the general public, but our own leadership.

As you can imagine, a war where the leadership wasn't backing their own soldiers is a war that is a recepe for disaster. We did win almost every enounter, and our kill ratio was extremely good (as much as people love to say we lost Vietnam, our kill ratio vs. American soldiers killed was ludicrously high). What caused us to slip were stupid things, such as not allowing our troops to carpet bomb/patrol the Vietnam/Chinese border (the Chinese constantly were shipping armaments to the Viet Cong through the border), as well as an already defeatest attitude by our leadership in America.

We weren't overwhelmed, and we could have stayed in the war if we had wanted. But with the negative attitude conjured by the public and the leadership, it was probably a good thing that we withdrew at the end.

GreyFox
June 21st, 2006, 12:02 AM
for the most part yes. numbers and the US being beaten and going back. but reasons no. IMHO