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View Full Version : wraith cannibalism (spoilers for the defiant one and allies)



rpmguitar
April 23rd, 2006, 10:38 AM
in allies the wraith are asking for the retrovirus so that they can eat other wraith instead of humans, but in "the defiant one" theres a wraith that has eaten other wraith to stay alive for 10000 years. if the wraith can eat other wraith, and we should know it from that episode, then why did we fall for the trick?

jenks
April 23rd, 2006, 11:39 AM
Humans are weaker than Wraith, it would be alot easier to overwhelm a ship full of Humans with amnesia than Wraith soldiers...

Heaven
April 23rd, 2006, 11:42 AM
besides, humans are much more tasty ;)

Cunha00
April 23rd, 2006, 03:05 PM
maybe humans can provide much more energy that a wraith

MarshAngel
April 23rd, 2006, 03:08 PM
in allies the wraith are asking for the retrovirus so that they can eat other wraith instead of humans, but in "the defiant one" theres a wraith that has eaten other wraith to stay alive for 10000 years. if the wraith can eat other wraith, and we should know it from that episode, then why did we fall for the trick?

They could probably assuage any guilt they felt over eating each other if their dinner looked human.

There are many reasons they should never have fallen for that trick. If they'd just put themselves in the Wraith's shoes and asked the question: would they turn other humans into pigs on a massive scale if they were starving, and dinner was still out there somewhere? I don't think we would... or at least the Atlantis team. We'd do the same thing they did: use and manipulate whomever to get to the food; not just stick around and cannibalize. As long as there's an option for real food, we'd try to get it.. and what do you know, they did. If they just assumed the wraith were evil scum who'd screw each other over above all else....they assumed too much given they know nothing about wraith society.

rarocks24
April 23rd, 2006, 03:18 PM
They could probably assuage any guilt they felt over eating each other if their dinner looked human.

There are many reasons they should never have fallen for that trick. If they'd just put themselves in the Wraith's shoes and asked the question: would they turn other humans into pigs on a massive scale if they were starving, and dinner was still out there somewhere? I don't think we would... or at least the Atlantis team. We'd do the same thing they did: use and manipulate whomever to get to the food; not just stick around and cannibalize. As long as there's an option for real food, we'd try to get it.. and what do you know, they did. If they just assumed the wraith were evil scum who'd screw each other over above all else....they assumed too much given they know nothing about wraith society.
On the other hand, they were blackmailed into it anyways. Do you really think they could have taken on the Wraith hive ship with just a battle scarred Orion (who's repairs are questionable given the situation with the Puddle Jumper), and the Daedalus. At first they were cautious, but they began letting their guard down, which they shouldn't have done. Of course, Mckay really let his guard down...showing how downright foolish he is (as if he hadn't been captured before and learned from the experience).

Cory Holmes
April 23rd, 2006, 07:27 PM
There are many reasons they should never have fallen for that trick. If they'd just put themselves in the Wraith's shoes and asked the question: would they turn other humans into pigs on a massive scale if they were starving, and dinner was still out there somewhere? I don't think we would... or at least the Atlantis team. We'd do the same thing they did: use and manipulate whomever to get to the food; not just stick around and cannibalize. As long as there's an option for real food, we'd try to get it.. and what do you know, they did. If they just assumed the wraith were evil scum who'd screw each other over above all else....they assumed too much given they know nothing about wraith society.

Assumed too much, yes. But I also think that they were hoping that turning the Wraith onto each other would distract them from culling the hapless and defenseless human worlds (not to mention, a little city called Atlantis).

Plus as others have said, they really didn't have a choice in the matter: "Help us or die. We'll just sweeten the pot a bit and give you some hope."

Teelie
April 24th, 2006, 03:16 AM
I think the Atlantis team should have been more prepared than they were and not acted so surprised the Wraith betrayed them. It's like that story of the scorpion and the frog. It's in the nature of the Wraith to betray the humans.

MarshAngel
April 24th, 2006, 07:36 AM
Assumed too much, yes. But I also think that they were hoping that turning the Wraith onto each other would distract them from culling the hapless and defenseless human worlds (not to mention, a little city called Atlantis).

Plus as others have said, they really didn't have a choice in the matter: "Help us or die. We'll just sweeten the pot a bit and give you some hope."

The issue isn't that they were blackmailed but the underhandedness they should have expected (and delivered in turn), seeing as how it has happened before. And if they've read any SGC reports, and paid attention to their experiences they should know humans are underhanded, deceptive, and conniving to say little of aliens who want to eat you and your entire galaxy.

The problem I found was that they assumed that the wraith would choose to fight each other as opposed to getting what has been their goal for the entire season particularly when you invite them to the one place in the entire galaxy where they could get it.

There was also an opportunity when the hive ships were about to destroy each other, where they could have let it happen without interveneing. This would have worked to their benefit. They intervened, out of some twisted sense of honor?

There is just this general sense that their not sure what they're doing. On the ethics side, Michael may have been wrong. But given that they went through with that, giving the Wraith the status of honored enemy to be met with respect instead of the same conniving deceptive behavior that would have kept them from being screwed over, seems silly. Maybe it's because Weir isn't a millitary leader but the decision making is uneven. The time to step up their game and be even more distrustful than Jack Oneill has long passed. If sg1 had been running that op.. they would have had c4 in their underwear to blow up the hive ship....just in case.;) .

FallenAngelII
April 24th, 2006, 07:50 AM
They could probably assuage any guilt they felt over eating each other if their dinner looked human.

There are many reasons they should never have fallen for that trick. If they'd just put themselves in the Wraith's shoes and asked the question: would they turn other humans into pigs on a massive scale if they were starving, and dinner was still out there somewhere? I don't think we would... or at least the Atlantis team. We'd do the same thing they did: use and manipulate whomever to get to the food; not just stick around and cannibalize. As long as there's an option for real food, we'd try to get it.. and what do you know, they did. If they just assumed the wraith were evil scum who'd screw each other over above all else....they assumed too much given they know nothing about wraith society.

And again you're ignoring the simple fact: They had no frackin' choice!!!!!

I'm so sick and tired of people accusing the expedition of stupidity. They were suspicious throughout the entire episode. Rodney went as far as to hack the "friendly" Hive's systems while repairing it.

And what were they supposed to do?! Refuse to work with the Wraith and have them alert every single Wraith in the system to their continued presence? Might I remind you:

- With only 3 Hives, its cruisers and darts firing at the Atlantis shield (powered by one single ZPM), Rodney said it'd only take a few days before the shield would be completely depleted
- Zelenka told us that even if they set the self-destruct, neither Atlantis nor the Ancient database would be sufficiently destroyed. All they'd have to do is salvage the database and they'd have the location of Earth.

So, it's either work with them and secretely work against them at the same time praying they'll stick to the deal or get screwed over, die and doom Earth (and the rest of the Milky Way) at the same time.

MarshAngel
April 24th, 2006, 08:01 AM
So, it's either work with them and secretely work against them at the same time praying they'll stick to the deal or get screwed over, die and doom Earth (and the rest of the Milky Way) at the same time.

When did they do that? Wat was the secret contingency plan?

FallenAngelII
April 24th, 2006, 08:09 AM
When did they do that? Wat was the secret contingency plan?

Rodney hacking their systems.

spg_1983
April 24th, 2006, 08:14 AM
Rodney hacking their systems.
Oh so that was their big plan B? Hack into their systems and.....do what? The wraith were playing them from the start. The only reason they were able to beat the interference and beam aboard was because the wraith let them. You really think that the wraith weren't letting McKay hack in? The wraith had the entire thing planned out perfectly before they even got to atlantis and the team walk right into the trap with out even hesitating.

FallenAngelII
April 24th, 2006, 08:24 AM
Oh so that was their big plan B? Hack into their systems and.....do what? The wraith were playing them from the start. The only reason they were able to beat the interference and beam aboard was because the wraith let them. You really think that the wraith weren't letting McKay hack in? The wraith had the entire thing planned out perfectly before they even got to atlantis and the team walk right into the trap with out even hesitating.

I doubt the hacking is part of some harebrained scheme that will save the day in season 3. After all, how else are they gonna get off the ship and stop the Wraith?

Also, they wouldn't even mentioned the hacking had it not been important. They also gave Rodney and Ronon those transport thingies to transport out of the Hive should they need to. Not to mention they stationed the Orion out of range for the Wraith to detect it ready to, well, do something, should they need to.

spg_1983
April 24th, 2006, 08:35 AM
I doubt the hacking is part of some harebrained scheme that will save the day in season 3. After all, how else are they gonna get off the ship and stop the Wraith?

Also, they wouldn't even mentioned the hacking had it not been important. They also gave Rodney and Ronon those transport thingies to transport out of the Hive should they need to. Not to mention they stationed the Orion out of range for the Wraith to detect it ready to, well, do something, should they need to.
The emergency transport beacons didnt work because the wraith were playing them. They wouldn't let them beam back off.

What is the Orion going to do? zoom in and look menacing, er, i mean old and beat up? Oh. Right. I forgot! McKay worked on it! and even though he said it wouldnt work, we all know that means that it will! What was I thinking! McKay had a couple weeks to work on the Ancient ship! Therefore it is going to work! Its a good thing he knows everything about every Ancient system the second he looks at it! Silly me!

FallenAngelII
April 24th, 2006, 08:38 AM
The emergency transport beacons didnt work because the wraith were playing them. They wouldn't let them beam back off.

What is the Orion going to do? zoom in and look menacing, er, i mean old and beat up? Oh. Right. I forgot! McKay worked on it! and even though he said it wouldnt work, we all know that means that it will! What was I thinking! McKay had a couple weeks to work on the Ancient ship! Therefore it is going to work! Its a good thing he knows everything about every Ancient system the second he looks at it! Silly me!

1) They still had it as a part of their Plan B. The fact that it didn't work doesn't disqualify it as a plan.
2) They did the best they fracking could! What else were they supposed to do? Magically summon Chaya and have her risk her Ascension by destroying the Hive?

Besides the stupidity with the computers, they did the best they could. What would you have done in their stead?

spg_1983
April 24th, 2006, 08:43 AM
1) They still had it as a part of their Plan B. The fact that it didn't work doesn't disqualify it as a plan.
2) They did the best they fracking could! What else were they supposed to do? Magically summon Chaya and have her risk her Ascension by destroying the Hive?

Besides the stupidity with the computers, they did the best they could. What would you have done in their stead?
1. I say again What Plan B? There was none. McKay wipped the transport beacons up as an emergency measure. There was no incorporating them into some grander plan because Weir had to ask him what about if there was an emergency to find out about them. They had no bigger plan! They were just going along with the wraith HOPING that the wraith were for real or that something would happene that they could take advantage of.

2.No they did ot do the best they frakking could (there is no "c" in frak). The best they could have done would be to not trust the wraith, once they found out they were going to be able to test transport onto the hive the first thing should have been a nuke, and the second that happened the wraith on the ground should have been shot in the back of the head by their gaurds. The bottom line is that they thought that the Wraith offer was for real because they listened to Micheal. They went along with it hook line and sinker.

FallenAngelII
April 24th, 2006, 09:32 AM
Did you miss the whole "The moment we sense you're trying something, we'll alert every single hive ship in this part of the galaxy of your presence!"?

And it still doesn't matter whether or not they thought their offer was real. They still had no choice.

spg_1983
April 24th, 2006, 09:56 AM
Did you miss the whole "The moment we sense you're trying something, we'll alert every single hive ship in this part of the galaxy of your presence!"?OH So their telepathic link is MAGICAL then? Becase they can obviously notify EVERY wraith in the galaxy in the space of less than a second from the moment that nuke materialises on board and they know what it is (Again assuming the atlantis crew is kind enough to just beam it right in their faces and not some hidden out of the way place. and assuming they put a big sign on it that says "nuke" and not say disguised as a canister or something.) The wraith queen can magically contact every wraith in the whole galaxy instantly, ignoring the fact that all the hives have cut of contact and dont trust each other anymore and she can explain the entire situation in that second at the same time convincing them that she is for real.


And it still doesn't matter whether or not they thought their offer was real. They still had no choice.
No they had loads of choices. Ill give you that acknowledging they were there and initiating cntact with the Wraith they may not have had a LOT of choice, but they still had a choice. They CHOSE to work with the wraith. They could have chosen to not work with them, triggered the self destruct and ended the problem right there. They could have CHOSEN to actually sabotage the wraiths plans instead of just going along with them hoping something would happen in their favor. They could have chosen to nuke the hive once they had the ability. But no, they CHOSE to give earth to the wraith. Any humans that are killed now by that hive, whether on earth or anywhere else, are the Atlantis teams fault.

rarocks24
April 24th, 2006, 10:47 AM
They could have chosen to not work with them, triggered the self destruct and ended the problem right there.

As someone previously mentioned, it would be giving the Wraith everything on a silver platter. If a single computer (Ancient or Earth) managed to survive, then they could recover the information. And as Zelenka previously stated, it's highly likely that they indeed would. And as I mentioned earlier, they were initially skeptical, but they let down their guard. Besides, the moment they were compromised was when Ford left Atlantis. Whether he's still alive or not is up to TPTB.

As for letting the Hive ship die, you're right, they should have. Though I still think the other hive orchestrated the attack.

FallenAngelII
April 24th, 2006, 10:48 AM
That all sounded good 'til the part about them choosing to give up Earth.

I'll acknowledge that they weren't perfect. Nobody is. But they didn't choose to give up Earth. Sure, they could have chosen to blow themselves up. In fact, I think the writers should have had them device a Plan C with the self-destruct ready to go. It would've given us more suspense.

You don't think the Wraith can detect something being beamed aboard? And you think they'd be stupid enough to keep the entire hive there and not have some off somewhere in case it went wrong? The Wraith telepathical network is magical.

Teyla was able to instantly get in touch with other Wraith. Of course, the whole civil war thing (or more like supposed civil war thing, we can only be sure of that there's distrust and strife among the Wraith from "The Hive", for all we know, everything said in "Allies" could've been a huge lie). But if you pick up "Atlantis is still there! Cloak..." and then the link is severed and whoever said it and their entire Hive went up in smokes and you were a Wraith, I bet you would go to check it out.

Of course, they Deus ex Machina it as "Hermiod can set the timer to outmost perfection. 1 second after it's beamed aboard".

rarocks24
April 24th, 2006, 10:51 AM
You don't think the Wraith can detect something being beamed aboard?

I'm sure there are airlocks aboard as well...perhaps the Wraith devised a safeguard in there somewhere where anything beamed aboard, should it be kontraband, be easily vented from the ship.

Some more details


McKAY: This -- this is incredible! I can't believe they actually sent this over so freely. I mean, if I can figure out how to break through this programme -- which is, well, as you know, pretty likely -- we could nuke any hive ship that we came across.

WEIR: Including Michael's?

McKAY: Well, it might take a couple of tries the first time.

spg_1983
April 24th, 2006, 11:05 AM
As someone previously mentioned, it would be giving the Wraith everything on a silver platter. If a single computer (Ancient or Earth) managed to survive, then they could recover the information. And as Zelenka previously stated, it's highly likely that they indeed would. And as I mentioned earlier, they were initially skeptical, but they let down their guard. Besides, the moment they were compromised was when Ford left Atlantis. Whether he's still alive or not is up to TPTB.

As for letting the Hive ship die, you're right, they should have. Though I still think the other hive orchestrated the attack.
No it would not be giving them anything on a silver platter. It was established in "Seige" that Zelenka created a virus that would wipe the database clean and the wraith would get nothing. The problem with the self destruct not being enough was resolved in "Seige" now whether you agree with the plausability of the virus or not is inconsequential. It was established that it would work. And since people seem prone to wild baseless speculation ill throw some in too. Its been a year since "Seige" The Daedalus has made numerous trip back and forth between earth, if they felt that the self destruct was still inefficient why wouldnt they use a whole lot of the nukes they have on daedalus?

spg_1983
April 24th, 2006, 11:07 AM
That all sounded good 'til the part about them choosing to give up Earth.

I'll acknowledge that they weren't perfect. Nobody is. But they didn't choose to give up Earth. Sure, they could have chosen to blow themselves up. In fact, I think the writers should have had them device a Plan C with the self-destruct ready to go. It would've given us more suspense.

You don't think the Wraith can detect something being beamed aboard? And you think they'd be stupid enough to keep the entire hive there and not have some off somewhere in case it went wrong? The Wraith telepathical network is magical.

Teyla was able to instantly get in touch with other Wraith. Of course, the whole civil war thing (or more like supposed civil war thing, we can only be sure of that there's distrust and strife among the Wraith from "The Hive", for all we know, everything said in "Allies" could've been a huge lie). But if you pick up "Atlantis is still there! Cloak..." and then the link is severed and whoever said it and their entire Hive went up in smokes and you were a Wraith, I bet you would go to check it out.

Of course, they Deus ex Machina it as "Hermiod can set the timer to outmost perfection. 1 second after it's beamed aboard".
They chose to give up earth. They made several choices that handed earth to the wraith. Whether it was intentional or plain stupidity, their choices gave them earth.

spg_1983
April 24th, 2006, 11:11 AM
I'm sure there are airlocks aboard as well...perhaps the Wraith devised a safeguard in there somewhere where anything beamed aboard, should it be kontraband, be easily vented from the ship.

Some more details
Thats just pure baseless wild speculation and is not supported by anything we have seen. The wraith don't have beaming tech. They were able to block it with an interference frequency, but how are they going to seize a beam of energy that they dont control and redirect. Also even if they did have that magic ability, they let McKay test it by beaming crap on their ship! Instead of beaming empty test cannisters all they had to do was have McKay swith the objects he was sending from "empty canister" to "armed nuked set to go off the second it materializes"

rarocks24
April 24th, 2006, 11:49 AM
I'm not disagreeing with you about anything...but Mckay isn't going to try crap and get caught about it...if the other hive knew all along and it was a setup, which is possible that it was, then it wouldn't have mattered what happened to that hive, the other hive would have come and tipped off other hives. As I mentioned before, Ford could still be out there, so it would be the Atlantis expedition's fault before the whole Allies situation if they found him (that's assuming he's not dead), though I believe he is. If Mckay had tried, more than likely the allied hive ship would have changed the jamming code and all the things gained from the "Alliance" during that short period of time would be worthless (though it was).

As for letting the hive in question be destroyed, again, Atlantis would be vulnerable, and there would ultimately be no time for an evacuation before the Wraith swarmed the city. It was the motivations behind aiding the "Allies" hive ship to begin with.


KLEINMAN: Sir, Jumper Eight is reporting the enemy hive has opened fire. Friendly hive is sustaining serious damage.

SHEPPARD: If they get boarded, it's all over for Atlantis. They'll give us up for sure.

CALDWELL (returning to his seat as he gives orders to his crew): Jump to their position, shields at full, ready main rail guns, ready all missile batteries.

As for blowing up the city, it would work. I'll give you that much.

rarocks24
April 26th, 2006, 08:05 AM
Also, I'm sure culling beams would be considered transporter tech. And just curious, if they were trying, would you honestly attempt to beam a nuke in a test when you must realize that if they knew what you were going to do and prevented you from doing so...you wouldn't want a nuke to go off in Atlantis would you? Second, it would be just plain dumb to trigger a bomb to go off if you're going to start beaming stuff with the possibility of failure.

BC - 303
April 29th, 2006, 01:43 PM
Humans cannot eat the wraith back!

MarshAngel
April 29th, 2006, 03:52 PM
Humans cannot eat the wraith back!
We could...it's just not that appealing. :)

It would be interesting if ground wraith turned out to be as useful as ground goa'uld.

rarocks24
April 29th, 2006, 04:27 PM
We could...it's just not that appealing. :)

It would be interesting if ground wraith turned out to be as useful as ground goa'uld.
Well, we know what the Wraith enzyme can do...minus the addicting effects. :S

thegatebuilders
April 29th, 2006, 05:47 PM
in allies the wraith are asking for the retrovirus so that they can eat other wraith instead of humans, but in "the defiant one" theres a wraith that has eaten other wraith to stay alive for 10000 years. if the wraith can eat other wraith, and we should know it from that episode, then why did we fall for the trick?


that is partly why i want to shot all the members of the atlantis expedition. but i do believe that there were justification for our help, as i recall one of the character said that it must have taken significant effort. secondly to feed on another wraith u need to be close to them and i doubt that rival wraith would allow sufficient number of other wraith to enter their ship without a fight, besides there are measures against such act, the wraith armor and little plastic inserted in their chest.

based on what we know, we know that you need a wraith gene to use a significant portion of their tecknology, by turning them into humans, they become defenceless against a rival ship.

finally, i think the reason why we helped them wasnt because we knew that they did not have hiden agenda, instead it was the lack of options that compelled us to our doom.

thegatebuilders
April 29th, 2006, 05:51 PM
Also, I'm sure culling beams would be considered transporter tech. And just curious, if they were trying, would you honestly attempt to beam a nuke in a test when you must realize that if they knew what you were going to do and prevented you from doing so...you wouldn't want a nuke to go off in Atlantis would you? Second, it would be just plain dumb to trigger a bomb to go off if you're going to start beaming stuff with the possibility of failure.


i doubt that is the case, the nukes are alway at least 5 seconds timer that would be halted if the beaming was unsuccesful