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**The Prophet** · 11 April 2006, 04:31 AM

I find it odd that he gets to chose who's going to be on his team. Shouldn't it be Weirs decision on what People would suit best in different Teams? He's got 2 Aliens & The Smartest Guy on Base.

Shouldn't either Teyla or Ronan be moved to another Team? Shep's got two people with knowledge on whats out there both on his team! Oe of them should be helping another team deal "What's out there."

He seems to pick the Best People to go on his Team, leaving the other teams with nothing! They should gt key member to. (Btw, is Zelenka on a Team?)

Also, He can't give orders to anybody, same deal with SG-1, McKays not in the Military, Teylas a Civilian & Ronan is a Deserted Soldier. Not one of them are abided to follow Shep's Orders! He should have another Soldier on his Team.

Also, if he "keeps" breaking rules, how did he get to the Rank of Lieutenant Colonal? Shouldn't he have been demoted or possibly dismissed by now? (Taking in to consideration his Pre-SG life).

**Linzi** · 11 April 2006, 04:43 AM

Well, I like Sheppard. I like some of his flaws. I liked the dark Sheppard we saw at the end of Siege I. That was different and not a safe thing to have an heroic leading man to do, killing a prisoner. I respected TPTB for taking that bold step.
In Season 2 that was all forgotten. I think that has been a bit of a mistake. That darkness and unpredicatable side of Sheppard was interesting and quite a new idea for Stargate. The writers seemed to suddenly have got cold feet and dropped that idea, which is a shame, IMO.
I don't think Sheppard's changed that much from Season 1, other than he's more compliant now, and is agreeing with Weir more. Not sure I like that happening so much as it did in season 2. It sort of changed who Sheppard is a little.
The kirking issue I really don't see as some do. It's just a little flirting that perhaps the writers do need to cut back on, and concentrate on some other sides of Sheppard's character to develop. Like, oh yes, his magic gene, his connection to Atlantis, his backstory....
Those are the things I want to see for Sheppard in Season 3. Oh yes, and lots of whumping..(sorry, I just can't help myself)

Bottom line - I still love Sheppard to bits, even though he hasn't been given the best storylines or the most exciting character moments.

**vaberella** · 11 April 2006, 05:05 AM

I'll be back with some ranting comments....I wouldn't say demote the man but there should be some kind of penality for his level of ignorance as for a few other people in what happened in both 'Michael' and 'Allies'--unfortunately I doubt that it will be the case. Again brb with a bit more to say.

VB

**Harry the Hippo Gutterman** · 11 April 2006, 06:13 AM

Originally posted by prion

Since the 'kill Shep' and 'demote Shep' threads are out there, this thread is exclusively for intelligent discussion of Sheppard's characters, his flaws (but not a place to rant ad naseum about 'kirking') and why he does what he does, and what we'd like to see in season three.

This is a positive thread, so the folks who hate 'em should just stay in the anti-threads

While I appreciate your thread below is my response to your opening paragraph. Read it if you like ignore it if you don't.

Spoiler:

I would like to see Sheppard a little less angry. It seems to me he treats Dr. Weir like she's his mother and I'd like to see some of the respect we saw between O'Neill and Hammond, she is the boss of Atlantis.

Also, I'd prefer to hear more about the Ethosyian (sp?) customs then Earth. Have him inquire as to the games Teyla's people play. That seen where he's telling the story about Jason in the hockeymask just seemed a little to Farscape. I always enjoy curiousity in scifi more then boring earth facts.

Also I think they should have him admit he cheated to join Mensa. He doesn't make the smartest decisions, it just seems to me its an easy way to defend when McKays not with him so he can figure something out on his own and have it be believable.

**pookiebear** · 11 April 2006, 06:53 AM

I really like Sheppard too, he'd a really affable, funny and sweet kinda guy (his hair is

). I agree with what Linzi said, his character development in season 1 was really leading to something good, something darker just under the surface, but it was sadly left by the wayside a bit in season 2 in favour of pretty alien girl flirtings etc. I hope season 3 is able to pick up the thread again, maybe explore his personality a bit more, improve his leadership skills - you gotta earn that title lt. col.! - develop his relationships (team and shippy wise) and just give us an insight into what makes him tick! IMO he's got so much potential and is already a firm fav in my books in testament to Joe and the writing on the show, but i'm holding out for more come the next season!

**Elinor** · 11 April 2006, 07:31 AM

Originally posted by pookiebear

just give us an insight into what makes him tick!

Yes...that's what I would like to see! What's going on in that mind of his?

He has such an intense look at times...that it just comes across to me that something dark has happened to him at some time in his life.

**vaberella** · 11 April 2006, 08:33 AM

In response to Prion's post:
Back with more to say! I adore Sheppard, as for him being my favorite character, it's unfortunate he's so far down the list...I think it's because I'm more into the 'character' characters. The funny quirky characters like McKay and Carson and what I've seen of Zelenka. So John won't be able to compete with them.

But as I like all the characters of SGA, which of course has been argued by others, I see both the negatives and the positive of all of characters.

I don't have anything against either the 'kill' or 'demote' Shep threads..cause everyone of course has their feelings on the character as they have the right too and I see none as more intelligent than others..although I will admit to having my mind blown by the silliness of Anti-threads, it just seems so circular and the wingeing is annoying. At least in the other threads you can get various opinions and debatable points. I thought the 'kill' thread was pretty informative since people came up with great team make ups if Shep should not be on the team for some reason...so that was pretty great route in my eyes.

As for his flaws, I think that's why I like how TPTB has gone with John at the same time as for why I get annoyed with it. I myself hate the annoying sound of anti-kirking, as well get the urge to roll my eyes and turn off the comp screen. What more can be said against it, that hasn't been said before?

Once again circular discussion! And I would like to point out, I don't see kirking as a flaw.

The flaws that I see in S2 which are more prominent than S1 is definitely his 'uncertainty'--not a flaw in the negative sense but in the human sense, a very understandable flaw. When I see the development of John from S1 to S2 that's so plausible for me and it's minor faults and extreme heroics to catastrophic underestimation of the enemy and overestimation of his fellow colleauges, byhim. Which is what is so different with Weir's sort of 180 from one minor incident to a disaster...but that's another topic---but it shows the focus of the writers.

In S1 we just have a really reckless Shep, someone who clearly does defy rules, but at the same time fights to the end and knows what battles he can win or sort of win and what he can't win. He was definitely self assured and confident in many of his decisions in S1 which has clearly changed in S2. In eps like LFP, we definitely see a Shep who understands his roll and duties. It's like when I look back at the eps compared to S2, I felt Ford was a great influence on Shep because Ford and also Bates were sticklers to military doctrine. So Shep rarely went out of bounds because for all his animosity towards Bates, we clearly see a deep respect and he found grounding in what both Bates and Ford presented, also you see this in 'The Gift', in 'Suspicion' and in 'The Siege 1'---and Ford and Teyla came through in 'The Storm' and his performance in both 'The Eye' and 'The STorm. By the way I never saw a 'DARK' Shep as so many people said they saw. I just saw a man using his military roots and realizing this is a killed or be killed situation and he was not about to be a sitting duck, not to mention he had both Weir and McKay's life depending on him and Atlantis. That's far from dark, dark is out right murder or mistakes of a madman, which he was far from.

To continue on, S1 was really good at giving us great aspects of Shep you see that in 'Rising' and you see that in 'The Underground' and various others. I was really liking those eps and although his heroism was a bit annoying to me. It can reach it's limits, he can't be great all the time you know...But this moves me on to S2..he's uncertain almost all the time in S2 which is of course as I had mentioned earlier good and bad.

We have Shep who in S2 after of course moving up in ranking, I have deduced is questioning his authority and his decisions. It makes me wonder what happened to him when he went back to earth. To better explain, he really has changed in S2....not badly--just different again which is good and bad.

Spoiler:

....that's interesting and makes me wonder more about Afghanistan.

Not to mention that later on we find out that

Spoiler:

That's just one moment of like 'What the hell are you doing Shep' and then we move onto other parts, like in

Spoiler:

I'm sure it can be easily rationalized as to why he did it...but at the same time it was a bit surprising.

Then we have the latest eps which definitely show a very nervous Shep and out of his elements..from Michael straight through Allies.

Spoiler:

And this is where I felt TPTB went too damn far. I mean, come on, we realize that John is struggling with his leadership throughout set Season and it can be deduced that he also came through a sort of epiphany as to how dangerous the Wraith are but again still sort of marginalizes their threat because of his own arrogance. But darn it when that crap went down in Allies I was damn near surprised his moment as military leader didn't come forth.

I'm sure that he may have put other's on detail for coming up with a method to contain 'Michael' but what I'm surprised by is that it went so badly. I can't understand that. Shep was able to take on several Genii's in 'The Eye' and 'The STorm' but he couldn't watch out for one Wraith who was human and half wraith like?! I mean that should have been something to take into account. And that character diverged a bit. Remembering CM and how he and Ronon were with Kavanaugh and Caldwell---when Atlantis was about to go down....to see him sort of be so lax about the military set up was mind boggling...good for character development. But unusual nonetheless.

I mean to me the problem started with one person. But since they didn't kill 'Michael' and at that point 'Michael' was a threat and of course under JOhn's juresdiction....(remember bringing Michael to Atlantis wouldn't be his call--he could only advise but he wouldnt' be able to make any out right orders). In this instance though it was all about him...and it was done all wrong. I can't get that. And then we see more of him in Inferno....he was sort of marginalized to me in Inferno---although I definitely see it as understandable, I felt he should have been more on top of his people and what they were doing. He seemed to spend a bit too much time with McKay who can handle things on his own..than really with Beckett, Ronon and Teyla making sure that things were moving more assuredly. Radio contact only gets you so far.

Then we have Allies, I mean to see that 'Teyla was the only one on the ball surprised me. Weir asks her to see if she can find out about the Wraith she's like no...because theymight control her. She had to remind John of who they were dealing with. She was on top of the pros and cons of the negotiation and of course Ronon went on a ship based on an order from Shep which shocked me. Now people, Shep is the military leader and he should be realizing that after 'Michael' let me not underestimate a Wraith.

Michael wasn't even fully Wraith and was able to take out and get away from his military. Now we're dealing with several and you'd think the man would be very weary and wouldn't need reminding that the Wraith cannot be trusted. Now I realize he was uncertain ----I mean in 'Michael' he was out there comopletely. But this was another place he could have rectified something..or salvaged something for me. He didn't do that though. It's shocking he didn't do that, to me. Again I realize from Michael that we are going on a whole Domino Effect...but John should have been more on top of it....but we see it was Teyla and that's understandable, but still surprising that John was not thinking along the military lines of 'worst case scenarios' as he was in 'The Eye' and 'The Storm'

--so it was a bit disappointing and I felt TPTB went to far into developing his uncertainty and aspects of his personality, which made him look more like a fool. Than the way he was in S1 although reckless....he did come throw. Again I'm all for anti-hero...I did feel it was just a tad bit excessive and turned out expressing something else.

Ahhh...S3, well I have a lot I hope to see of Shep. I definitely like some others need more on the polytechnic abilities. I'm fed up with what we've seen so far of the ATA gene...it bloody annoys me. I don't care if Shep can light things up..give me a bit more than just that. Oh and we know he's immune to the virus...thanks a lot guys..but I need more than just that.

I'd like to see a sort of melding of Shep this S1 and S2...I want to see a balance..I just see too much one sideness in the writing from the writers when we loook at some of the character development from S1 and S2, it's sort of like okay we have one aspect of their personality let's do dimension 2 and then three...come on now. I want to see the whole kitten kaboodle.

I'd also like to see more interaction between Shep and the Wraith. I want to see how much damage the ATA gene can take by wraith skills and abilities and if we can see a growth that way. I'd also like to see more team interaction---I love the McKay Shep moments and would love to see one on one moments of Shep/Ronon...that would be rad. I just see Ronon as sort of loooking up to Shep and I'd like to see what they can learn from Each other. Of course more interaction on Shep/Teyla on missions like their development in LFP and moments in The Lost Boys and Allies--seeing the friendship build and trust evolve.

Definitely see Shep in off world missions with Lorne. Lorne is a great mini character and I'd like to see him develop to the standpoint that Bates was in. So it would be good to see Shep Team and Lorne Team on missions..it would be great.

Shep is an all around great character that brings forth more to the show and of course to the characters all around. I'm hoping this is a discussion thread and not another thread where I have to post my undying eternal love. And we can disucss him...none of my posts were bashing the character only his motives...so readers please take it as such.

VB

**prion** · 11 April 2006, 08:35 AM

I find it odd that he gets to chose who's going to be on his team. Shouldn't it be Weirs decision on what People would suit best in different Teams? He's got 2 Aliens & The Smartest Guy on Base.

If you recall, in 'Rising," Weir asked him who he was going to choose for his team. Right then and there SHE assigned him the task of creating his own team. I believe that she must have overall okayed it, but it makes sense that if he's going out to face danger, he should do it with people he feels comfortable with.

Shouldn't either Teyla or Ronan be moved to another Team? Shep's got two people with knowledge on whats out there both on his team! Oe of them should be helping another team deal "What's out there."

Athosians actually do help ohter teams. Remember that Halling went out with Stackhouse's team, not as a member but more like a guide. Teyla is the guide and diplomat. Even though Dex can be a bit of a loose canon, he's an excellent warrior. Shep would be a fool not to keep someone like that on his team. But also remember, team are built as the producers cast. It's that simple.

He seems to pick the Best People to go on his Team, leaving the other teams with nothing! They should gt key member to. (Btw, is Zelenka on a Team?)

Hey,of course we're going to see the best team. No different than SG1. No, Zelenka isn't on any team. For all we know there are teams out there that do very well, but the show is about Shep's team, not the other teams, with the exception of sometimes seeing Lorne coming and going with his team.

Also, He can't give orders to anybody, same deal with SG-1, McKays not in the Military, Teylas a Civilian & Ronan is a Deserted Soldier. Not one of them are abided to follow Shep's Orders! He should have another Soldier on his Team.

McKay reports to Weir, Shep reports to Weir. They're in anohter galaxy, and face it, they've been making their own rules which yes, sometime come back to bite 'em in the butt. Teyla chooses to take his orders, as does Dex. Do they have signed contracts? Doubt it. They'd rather team up with the people they feel have the best chance of defeating the wraith.

Also, if he "keeps" breaking rules, how did he get to the Rank of Lieutenant Colonal? Shouldn't he have been demoted or possibly dismissed by now? (Taking in to consideration his Pre-SG life).

In "Intruder," Weir explained all that. SHE got him promoted to his new rank. She also didn't care about his pre-SG life. She choose to take him at face value and has said as much. Even when O'Neill pointed out the 'black mark' about not obeying rules, Weir pointed out that she had read Jack's record. Touche!

**prion** · 11 April 2006, 08:46 AM

Originally posted by vaberella

The flaws that I see in S2 which are more prominent than S1 is definitely his 'uncertainty'. When I see the development of John from S1 to S2 that's so plausible for me and it's minor faults and extreme heroics to catastrophic underestimation of the enemy and overestimation of his fellow colleauges. Which is what is so different with Weir's sort of 180 from one minor incident to a disaster...but that's another topic---but it shows the focus of the writers...

I see Shep's uncertainty in some situations as being there since day one. It's a character flaw, but not a hideous one, but one which has stemmed from something in his past the writers should hint at it.

I hardly think Shep is perfect. I've cringed at some things he's done/said, and have wondered just what the writers were smoking/thinking when they penned those scenes. I can see some development, but I also see slides back. We're starting season 3 and Shep's backstory is constantly being backburned. Can it be that tough to write? McKay is of course more for the writers to pen as he can be as full of flaws as possible; he doesn't have to maintain the 'hero' role, which is Shep's position.

I think part of the problem is that writers don't seem to have an arc or storyline in mind. We don't need arcs that are tightly so tightly together that you have to watch them in order, but have some underlying thread, and mention repercussion of past episodes (I think the actions of "Michael" warrant some BIG repercussions). And the writers need to step back and go, hmm, is this really logical? We've seen some plot holes you can drive the Daedalus through (the Prometheus can now fit through tiny holes since the blew it up in SG1, sigh).

Like someone else said, I'd like to know more about what makes Shep tick. What makes him do things a certain way, etc.

**gambit** · 11 April 2006, 09:06 AM

Originally posted by Harry the Hippo Gutterman

Also I think they should have him admit he cheated to join Mensa.

That is a moranic statement. And he never joined, just took the test.

**vaberella** · 11 April 2006, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by prion

I find it odd that he gets to chose who's going to be on his team. Shouldn't it be Weirs decision on what People would suit best in different Teams? He's got 2 Aliens & The Smartest Guy on Base.

If you recall, in 'Rising," Weir asked him who he was going to choose for his team. Right then and there SHE assigned him the task of creating his own team. I believe that she must have overall okayed it, but it makes sense that if he's going out to face danger, he should do it with people he feels comfortable with.

No..that's not what was said. Weir told him they should discuss as to who will be assigned to his team. I think Weir was in the decision making and okayed it..but not really assigned him the team he has.

And I agree with you, about the people he feels comfortable with. Ford had his back from the beginning in 'Rising' you can tell thy sort of had this bond of respect. And it looked to me that Ford looked up to him. And if you remember also in 'Rising' when Sumner asked about John it was Ford who knew who he was with. As for Teyla--Prion stated it for me below! In one of the eps...if any of you remember the dark haired girl from 'Conversion' at the end...I believe she's on Lorne's team. And going back to S1 Halling was on a team. Every team seemed to have at least on Athosian as ambassador. As for McKay he put himself on that team....I just remember John saying in an ep to McKay that he wanted to be there...to see of any new discoveries. Or something of the like. To me Zelenka was better for that...since McKay is head scientist and all. But whatever...

Originally posted by prion

Shouldn't either Teyla or Ronan be moved to another Team? Shep's got two people with knowledge on whats out there both on his team! Oe of them should be helping another team deal "What's out there."

Athosians actually do help ohter teams. Remember that Halling went out with Stackhouse's team, not as a member but more like a guide. Teyla is the guide and diplomat. Even though Dex can be a bit of a loose canon, he's an excellent warrior. Shep would be a fool not to keep someone like that on his team. But also remember, team are built as the producers cast. It's that simple.

Exactly he would be. And keep in mind John was man down. He would be even better to have on the team than Ford... Ford was walking in blind like the rest of them. Ronon is not only a great military guy and who knows his weapons..and can probably carry McKay, if McKay was shot..same for Shep and Teyla..but Ronon is a tracker. Why would I give up my Ambassador who can shoot and fight better than most men--which Ronon can't be, John is too much of an intimedator like in 'The Storm' and McKay can't be diplomatic at all. Give up a bloody tracker who is also amazing military and pretty much your braun when need be. Or give up the head scientist who chose to be on your team. Hey, man I agree with Prion...he'd be butt stupid.

Originally posted by prion

He seems to pick the Best People to go on his Team, leaving the other teams with nothing! They should gt key member to. (Btw, is Zelenka on a Team?)

Hey,of course we're going to see the best team. No different than SG1. No, Zelenka isn't on any team. For all we know there are teams out there that do very well, but the show is about Shep's team, not the other teams, with the exception of sometimes seeing Lorne coming and going with his team.

Yeah poor Zelenky no team..but then again he's second in command for scientist. So you really dont' want that leaving when McKay is already gone. To me McKay should have stayed on base, but because McKay is technically better under pressure than Zelenka as seen in 'Lost Boys' I'd take McKay.

And remember John is head military he gets first dibs..and from what I can see Most of the other teams are pretty well balanced. There's one scientist and at least one athosian or other world planet on a team. John just has the best... and he's the head team too..

Originally posted by prion

Also, He can't give orders to anybody, same deal with SG-1, McKays not in the Military, Teylas a Civilian & Ronan is a Deserted Soldier. Not one of them are abided to follow Shep's Orders! He should have another Soldier on his Team.

McKay reports to Weir, Shep reports to Weir. They're in anohter galaxy, and face it, they've been making their own rules which yes, sometime come back to bite 'em in the butt. Teyla chooses to take his orders, as does Dex. Do they have signed contracts? Doubt it. They'd rather team up with the people they feel have the best chance of defeating the wraith.

Prion is correct. Teyla and Ronon are not Civilians as you think they are. We're not on earth. None of the rules that go for the civilians from earth on base true to Teyla and Ronon. People seem to forget that these two are in PG...they make their rules and as Prion said choose to agree with decisions made, although they may not feel it's correct. Both Teyla and Ronon have disagreed vehemently to decisions made...Teyla has been a bit more diplomatic about it.

And Prion is also right that Shep and McKay take orders from Weir point blank....unless there's a threat to the Atlantis then it's military situation and it's all on John...I dont' think Weir can say anythign really...as she's not a military strategist but she can give input and also she's valuable in knowledge of the entire Atlantis..but final decisions on military distribution and execution are on John if of course Caldwell is not around. Then at that point it's all on Caldwell and John. Think back to 'The Siege 2'--John gave input but took orders. But otherwise he's in charge.

Originally posted by prion

Also, if he "keeps" breaking rules, how did he get to the Rank of Lieutenant Colonal? Shouldn't he have been demoted or possibly dismissed by now? (Taking in to consideration his Pre-SG life).

In "Intruder," Weir explained all that. SHE got him promoted to his new rank. She also didn't care about his pre-SG life. She choose to take him at face value and has said as much. Even when O'Neill pointed out the 'black mark' about not obeying rules, Weir pointed out that she had read Jack's record. Touche!

This is true..and even when he pretty much disrespected her in 'Hot Zone'...but again he saved lives. Keep in mind most of those generals were not there. He may have disobeyed orders but he saved multitudes of lives in the process. And Weir does know that and realizes that; lives are priceless. So she would fight for his promotion and keep him as head, cause he did do a good job otherwise.

Although in this situtaion that's happend in late S2....he should get some kind of reprimanding. I mean 2 galaxies are in danger not 1. So this is something that should be addressed. Although there's a larger blame in my eyes on another character. I do felt John could have been far better and did add oil to the fire...where it just seemed to get worse to me. But then this can be explained away with statements like their in over their head. And mistakes can be made.

Sure but nothing like what I saw...military should have been on top of a few things....too much underestimation...

VB

**vaberella** · 11 April 2006, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by prion

I see Shep's uncertainty in some situations as being there since day one. It's a character flaw, but not a hideous one, but one which has stemmed from something in his past the writers should hint at it.

I hardly think Shep is perfect. I've cringed at some things he's done/said, and have wondered just what the writers were smoking/thinking when they penned those scenes. I can see some development, but I also see slides back. We're starting season 3 and Shep's backstory is constantly being backburned. Can it be that tough to write? McKay is of course more for the writers to pen as he can be as full of flaws as possible; he doesn't have to maintain the 'hero' role, which is Shep's position.

I think part of the problem is that writers don't seem to have an arc or storyline in mind. We don't need arcs that are tightly so tightly together that you have to watch them in order, but have some underlying thread, and mention repercussion of past episodes (I think the actions of "Michael" warrant some BIG repercussions). And the writers need to step back and go, hmm, is this really logical? We've seen some plot holes you can drive the Daedalus through (the Prometheus can now fit through tiny holes since the blew it up in SG1, sigh).

Like someone else said, I'd like to know more about what makes Shep tick. What makes him do things a certain way, etc.

Yeah I think I may have said that in my round about way. Anyway yes I agree with you. It's a flaw that I like but I do feel the writers take it rather drastic levels in S2.

I think what they want is to keep the mystery alive with JOhn by doing that. You know it's like I think the writers have absolutely nothing going on with the ATA gene, so I think the military history is all they have left and yet they don't know what to do with it.

Oy...the writers..I have a like/dislike relationship with them...since I'm lost sometimes as to where they want to take Shep....it's only after deep thinking I come up with some plausible excuse which is they dont' know how to execute what they want to get across...so they write what they do. But I hear in S3 we might see some development in that with Ronon's story in 'Sateda'. Hopefully something to look forward too.

In pink...thank you Prion for agreeing to that..we have to see some kind of thing for Shep in what happened...not only to Weir. This was disastrous and I thought we would see Shep actually shine when it came down to his military presence but no...it was just a washout; which I cannot for the lif of me comprehend. Most military think in 'worst case scenarios' what were they thinking of even he was thiking. The arrogrance just put 2 galaxies in jeopardy...not just 1. Not even 2 planets...galaxies...what the cookies is that?!

VB

**Trialia** · 11 April 2006, 09:40 AM

This thread is so much more involving than the last one. Thank you prion!

Personally... I warmed to Sheppard fairly quickly at the beginning of Season 1, especially from the crack he made to Sumner about Weir's being in charge, through to the crazy throwing-McKay-off-balcony incident. (I thought it was kind of cute, actually, the smirk he gave Elizabeth afterward.)

Sanctuary changed that a little. I thoroughly disliked him in that episode; it was as if the character had been brainwashed. I wrote it off as a writers' blip and moved on.

After Conversion, however, things really started to go haywire with his character. We'd been shown that he does have some sense of honour, despite the black mark, before this. (If you want more about Afghanistan, I suggest you get hold of the backstory snippet Flipside from the SG magazine a couple of months back.) I liked that.

But, and here comes the crunch...

His actions during The Lost Boys/The Hive were completely irresponsible, even leading to the further endangerment of his friends' lives. If I hadn't known better I'd have said Sheppard was the one who'd had a large dose of the enzyme in that episode.

Epiphany was not enough. That episode had a great deal of potential and it was all lost to his dalliance with little Teer, whom, might I add, was so soppy and one-dimensional a character I wanted to drown her in a bucket. He could have concentrated his efforts post-recovery on trying to get the Ancients to open up about any possible ways back, but did he? No. And all the time his team were worrying their asses off about him on the other side of the portal. I know he may have thought they'd left him, but I'm pretty sure he could have found out about the time-dilation field from the Ancients if he'd bothered to ask.

The Tower? Please don't put me through THAT again. His little interlude with the Prom Queen was utterly unprofessional and even verging on the paedophilic... HOW old was Mara supposed to be? She didn't look any more than 15 to me. He ought to damn well know better in his position. It undermined any leadership I saw in him up to this point.

The Long Goodbye... I love the episode, but John should not have agreed to harbour Thalan's consciousness. Irresponsible, against protocol, and-- as indeed it turned out-- again, life-endangering. The first thing he should have done, no matter what affection he may or may not have for anyone with whom he works, was have "Elizabeth" confined in the brig until Phoebus' consciousness wore off.

I'm just concentrating on those four for now, but they're my main gripes with the character in the latter half of season two.

**vaberella** · 11 April 2006, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by Trialia

This thread is so much more involving than the last one. Thank you prion!

Personally... I warmed to Sheppard fairly quickly at the beginning of Season 1, especially from the crack he made to Sumner about Weir's being in charge, through to the crazy throwing-McKay-off-balcony incident. (I thought it was kind of cute, actually, the smirk he gave Elizabeth afterward.)

Sanctuary changed that a little. I thoroughly disliked him in that episode; it was as if the character had been brainwashed. I wrote it off as a writers' blip and moved on.

I could agree and disagree. He was pretty much that way in Rising with Teyla...I think he just gets a bit starry eyed by beautiful women. But not only that Chaya was pure zen. But I thought he was alright. He was right in choosing to see where that beam came from. I felt he was too trusting, but then again I also feel that John is slightly sexist in thinking that women are pretty much non-threatening, damsels in distress..can't blame hiim for that; unless their wraith females of course. I've met a few military men who acted the same around me...until they found out I know how to fire a weapon and I know a bit of martial arts--being 5'2" and dainty doesn't help the impression. But in the end we found out more about the Ancients.

Originally posted by Trialia

After Conversion, however, things really started to go haywire with his character. We'd been shown that he does have some sense of honour, despite the black mark, before this. (If you want more about Afghanistan, I suggest you get hold of the backstory snippet Flipside from the SG magazine a couple of months back.) I liked that.

But, and here comes the crunch...

His actions during The Lost Boys/The Hive were completely irresponsible, even leading to the further endangerment of his friends' lives. If I hadn't known better I'd have said Sheppard was the one who'd had a large dose of the enzyme in that episode.

I agree...but then I liked that ep..mainly because of the anti-hero Shep. Sorry had way too much of that in S1..and hence the reason I liked that they did that..although in an objective eye, it was plain stupid. But for definitely character growth..this was definitely an interesting move to make on Shep's part...as I stated above.

Originally posted by Trialia

Epiphany was not enough. That episode had a great deal of potential and it was all lost to his dalliance with little Teer, whom, might I add, was so soppy and one-dimensional a character I wanted to drown her in a bucket. He could have concentrated his efforts post-recovery on trying to get the Ancients to open up about any possible ways back, but did he? No. And all the time his team were worrying their asses off about him on the other side of the portal. I know he may have thought they'd left him, but I'm pretty sure he could have found out about the time-dilation field from the Ancients if he'd bothered to ask.

I didn't like Epiphany..and as for the woman...I didn't pay any attention and I liked her. Well I liked them all, and definitely have no feelings of ill will towards them for being there. I don't blame him at all in Epiphany...I don't think he knew what he was doing there and he hated being there..seemed to want to go home...but saw no other option. Epiphany didn't bug me much.

Originally posted by Trialia

The Tower? Please don't put me through THAT again. His little interlude with the Prom Queen was utterly unprofessional and even verging on the paedophilic... HOW old was Mara supposed to be? She didn't look any more than 15 to me. He ought to damn well know better in his position. It undermined any leadership I saw in him up to this point.

Uh...she came to him. And sorry to say I'd be a bit shocked and stunned too if someone came to my room naked and started making out with me. Especially if it was McKay...or Ronon (I admit this). But there's no proof that there was anything more than what we saw on screen..so it doesn't hurt the entire ep. Again his sexism was seen in that ep and we see that John was just as suprised that he was fooled into believing she was an innocent in all this. But his leadership otherwise was fine. He was on the ball as to what was going on in the ep... and used his position as the ATA gene holder to his benefit. I was a surprised though by him giving up the ATA gene to the bad guy.

At this point much like I think of all the earthlings I think of John...they have preconcieved notions of the humans in the PG galaxy. In most of the incidents you've mentioned we see that John definitely underestimated people. Again that underestimation of your environment and over estimation of yourself and arrogance. He was really trusting of these people from Rising..until now..and it's surprising he really hasn't learned from his mistakes. He seems to think their in some way inferior or innocent to evil...when they've been around it and are plagued with the same flaws that plague us earthlings. I think once his character realizes that...he'd be more adept in dealing with some of the situations their in. But right now the conceit and arrogance dominants all of Atlantis towards the PG people....and that also transfers sometimes when I look at Teyla and Ronon treatment...although I have to say I think John treats them with the utmost respect and seriously values their opinion. It's just the other people he's not like that with. But Teyla and Ronon he treats as equals.

Originally posted by Trialia

The Long Goodbye... I love the episode, but John should not have agreed to harbour Thalan's consciousness. Irresponsible, against protocol, and-- as indeed it turned out-- again, life-endangering. The first thing he should have done, no matter what affection he may or may not have for anyone with whom he works, was have "Elizabeth" confined in the brig until Phoebus' consciousness wore off.

I'm just concentrating on those four for now, but they're my main gripes with the character in the latter half of season two.

I agree... not even having to be confied to the brig...wait there's a brig on Atlantis...?! I thought that was only in ships, like boats. Well anyway...she souldhave been confied to her room...or that prison area..but mainly her room with several officers and maybe cuffed...although I thnk her room would be better. It was an all around good ep..but then I'm like..mmmphf. They could have surprised me a bit..but the writers wasted teh chance.

VB

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Sheppard: Character development and suggestion (not anti)

Sheppard: Character development and suggestion (not anti)

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