A little confused ('Progeny' SPOILERS)

[jash]

The halogram lady said the Ancients met an enemy that rivaled them in whatever when they arrived in the peg gal. First we thought it was the Wraith but they don't rival them in tech or anything else, they only out number them. Then we will meet the Asurans, but they were not there before the Ancients. Is this enemy still out there waiting to attack again?

[Pharaoh Atem]

knowing our luck lately YES

[metroid]

1. They NEVER said they encountered the enemy when they arrived, they simply said they came upon a world where a dark enemy slept (the wraith)
2. The Asurans were created by the ancients so they are most likely NOT the threat they were facing.
3. The writers are introducing the Asurans as the new enemy, i highly doubt they will encounter another different enemy.

[Avatar28]

The asurans were created to fight the wraith. The writers have, effectively, reintroduced the replicators in a way.

[Blitz]

The Wraith, in my opinion rival and exceed the Atlantians by far in their 'power'.

Atlantians could heal each other....maybe some telekenisis?
The Wraith can heal themselves, possibly heal each other: weve never seen.
They work in a psychic space mentally linking with each other.
They have telekentic powers (didnt that guy Wraith through sumner around with a flick of his hand in Rising? or did he whack him?)

Blitz

[gkyun]

The asurans were created to fight the wraith. The writers have, effectively, reintroduced the replicators in a way.

Plus the Ancients have/had the means to destroy the replicators (New order, Reckoning). So I think the Wraith were indeed the "enemy" the hologram mentioned, at least for the time being.

[Happy_Gate]

Plus the Ancients have/had the means to destroy the replicators (New order, Reckoning). So I think the Wraith were indeed the "enemy" the hologram mentioned, at least for the time being.

I agree. I think the writers put that in as an afterthought. IMO, wraith do not have powers rivalling ancients.

[Avatar28]

Except that the wraith DO rival the ancients. They were, after all, able to defeat them enough to force them to retreat from the galaxy. I think that's a victory by any standards. So obviously they DO rival them to that degree at the least.

[Wraith_Hunter]

The halogram lady said the Ancients met an enemy that rivaled them in whatever when they arrived in the peg gal. First we thought it was the Wraith but they don't rival them in tech or anything else, they only out number them. Then we will meet the Asurans, but they were not there before the Ancients. Is this enemy still out there waiting to attack again?

First it didn't say that, it simply said that they encountered them one day on a dark world.

Then it said about their terrible weapons & as a last resort, they were forced to submerge the city.

Jump to 'Before I Sleep', they told me of beings called Wraiths, whose power & technology rivalled their own. It was Wraith Darts that attacked the TJ, it was the Wraith who were in orbit bombarding the city. Notice they din't refer to any other enemy, just the Wraith.

Rivalled doesn't mean that they were equal, somebody could rival me for a position in a new job, but I still may have superior technical skills compared to them etc. They are very advanced, not as advanced as the Ancients technology wise, but not that far off either. When fighting someone in a war, it doesn't matter how fast the ships are, how good you can build things, how great medcial equipment you have & all the rest. It's simpy to do with the weapons that your enemy has. As seen in numerous eps, they have very advanced & powerful weapons that can drain ZPM's in a matter of days.

Also, it was a dark world where they first encountered the Wraith in 'Rising'.

Which also was the pilot episode where this new enemy was introduced, which seems to indicate strongly that's what the hologram was referring to.

Then for thew Wraith powers, they have psychic abilities among themselves as well as victims or enemies, tremendous strength, can be immortal as long as they feed, which means they'd never die as long as they ate regularly. They can take tremendous amounts of physical injury without dying. Plus I'd probably bet that the Queens have some sort of telekinesis abilities, which would allow them to move phycial objects without touch etc.

So in conclusion: all that above, proves that they do rival the Lantians in power, technology isn't so equal, but offensive wise, they are superior. So in war, that's all that counts in the long run. Therefore being tht they've been in Pegasus for a few years now, they haven't heard any mention from themselves or anyone else about a terrible unknown enemy. Anything that they have, it's always been about the Wraith as they main enemy. The Asurans are being brought in as another new enemy, however they were created after the Wraith & their original purpose was to destroy them.

That in itself should be enough proof, why did the Ancients create a race to wipe out the Wraith, if they weren't the main enemy in the galaxy. Overall, there is not one shred of evidence at all, to say anything that there is a major unknown enemy that runs Pegasus, yet nobody has ever said anything regarding them or anything to even reference their existence.

Hence the Wraith are the main bad guys, the ones that brought the Lantians to their knees, which was said exclusively by a Wraith Queen in 'Allies'. It's been well over 2 years & now in the third they are bringing in the Asurans as another enemy, who have a plan to wipe out the Wraith. Therefore, since this subject has been brough up time & time again, it will never be settled. Even when Atlantis ends, the Wraith will have been shown to be the only real enemy in the show's history, but some will still say that they were pulling the strings in the background & if they had made one last season, the writers will have brought them in! Long story, this debate (shouldn't even continually be debated because there is nothing to even hint at another enemy.) will never be settled. A couple weeks from now, there will be another thread on the same subject again.

[Prior_of_the_Ori]

Yeah its likely it was the Wraith who were the enemy that defeated the Lantians as Wraith Hunter said.

From the spoilers it seems that the Lantians were a lot more harsh on the Asurans as its mentioned that the Lantians defeated them and thought they were destroyed (I think) but the Wraith eventually defeated them. Kind of funny how the Lantians created a weapon to fight the wraith but end up trying to destroy it because it could become a menace like the wraith while the wraith continue in taking over the pegasus galaxy.

[Gaeth]

First it didn't say that, it simply said that they encountered them one day on a dark world.


Jump to 'Before I Sleep', they told me of beings called Wraiths, whose power & technology rivalled their own. It was Wraith Darts that attacked the TJ, it was the Wraith who were in orbit bombarding the city. Notice they din't refer to any other enemy, just the Wraith.

Rivalled doesn't mean that they were equal, somebody could rival me for a position in a new job, but I still may have superior technical skills compared to them etc. They are very advanced, not as advanced as the Ancients technology wise, but not that far off either. When fighting someone in a war, it doesn't matter how fast the ships are, how good you can build things, how great medcial equipment you have & all the rest. It's simpy to do with the weapons that your enemy has. As seen in numerous eps, they have very advanced & powerful weapons that can drain ZPM's in a matter of days.

Also, it was a dark world where they first encountered the Wraith in 'Rising'.

Which also was the pilot episode where this new enemy was introduced, which seems to indicate strongly that's what the hologram was referring to.

Then for thew Wraith powers, they have psychic abilities among themselves as well as victims or enemies, tremendous strength, can be immortal as long as they feed, which means they'd never die as long as they ate regularly. They can take tremendous amounts of physical injury without dying. Plus I'd probably bet that the Queens have some sort of telekinesis abilities, which would allow them to move phycial objects without touch etc.

So in conclusion: all that above, proves that they do rival the Lantians in power, technology isn't so equal, but offensive wise, they are superior. So in war, that's all that counts in the long run. Therefore being tht they've been in Pegasus for a few years now, they haven't heard any mention from themselves or anyone else about a terrible unknown enemy. Anything that they have, it's always been about the Wraith as they main enemy. The Asurans are being brought in as another new enemy, however they were created after the Wraith & their original purpose was to destroy them.

That in itself should be enough proof, why did the Ancients create a race to wipe out the Wraith, if they weren't the main enemy in the galaxy. Overall, there is not one shred of evidence at all, to say anything that there is a major unknown enemy that runs Pegasus, yet nobody has ever said anything regarding them or anything to even reference their existence.

Hence the Wraith are the main bad guys, the ones that brought the Lantians to their knees, which was said exclusively by a Wraith Queen in 'Allies'. It's been well over 2 years & now in the third they are bringing in the Asurans as another enemy, who have a plan to wipe out the Wraith. Therefore, since this subject has been brough up time & time again, it will never be settled. Even when Atlantis ends, the Wraith will have been shown to be the only real enemy in the show's history, but some will still say that they were pulling the strings in the background & if they had made one last season, the writers will have brought them in! Long story, this debate (shouldn't even continually be debated because there is nothing to even hint at another enemy.) will never be settled. A couple weeks from now, there will be another thread on the same subject again.

Main Entry: 1ri•val
Pronunciation: 'rI-v&l
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin rivalis one using the same stream as another, rival in love, from rivalis of a stream, from rivus stream -- more at RUN
1 a : one of two or more striving to reach or obtain something that only one can possess b : one striving for competitive advantage
2 obsolete : COMPANION, ASSOCIATE
3 : one that equals another in desired qualities : PEER

First off rival does mean equal, or at least near equal. There have been statements of Wraith technology rivaling and not rivaling Ancient tech. On the pro-rival side there are the statements in ‘Before I sleep’, and of course the first episode with the hologram. On the non-rival side, there are statements like McKay’s in ‘The Siege part 1’. Ancient weapons are more powerful than the Wraith’s: that old satellite in ‘The Siege part 1’ cut through the hive ship easily. According to McKay (in that episode) it could’ve destroyed all three of the hive ships. Plus that satellite was derelict for 10,000 years and jury rigged into working just before the battle. Another example is when Shepard severely damaged a Wraith cruiser with a single drone from a barely working jumper. We know this Ancient weapon technology was more effective that the Wraith’s on the ’Siege Part 2’, Shepard said the Ancient’s could win every battle but kept losing the war. This is how the Wraith work, they’re like the bugs they evolved from: they infest, they retreat, they breed, and they keep coming back. This issue has been brought up on previous threads on this subject.

It was on the ‘Siege Part 3’ that the Wraith were going to drain a ZPM in a matter of days. This was because they Earth expedition had depleted their supply of drones. This scenario points again to the Wraith strategy: attrition.

The message from the hologram is about the Wraith, but the wording of it does leave it open for it to be about someone else. You can’t come upon a darkened world where an enemy slept/slumbered unless they were there before you got there. The message could just mean they developed after the Ancients got there, and they noticed them when they came upon the darkened world. But, it is an odd way to word it. Until the ‘Hot Zone’ episode that wouldn’t carry any significance. When that episode aired we found there was another enemy out there. Until the spoiler came out no viewer would have any way of knowing whether the new enemy used the nano-virus as a tool, or if they were the nano-virus. McKay said it wasn’t Wraith and didn’t think it was Ancient, and it was different from other Ancient tech. The episode ‘Hot Zone’ clearly spelled out a new enemy, but didn’t say what or who it was. You would have to believe that otherwise ‘Hot Zone’ becomes meaningless gibberish. Just because there is another enemy out there doesn’t mean they are pulling the strings.

As I have discussed with you before, Wraith Hunter, there is no “evidence” in a TV show, there is foreshadowing and exposition. Any good writer wants to keep the audience guessing, it heightens the interest. Let’s not forget this is a TV show and they can get away with any inconsistencies that do or do not spring up.

As far as Wraith abilities, they have telepathy, great strength, and lifedraining which grants regeneration. The female Wraith seem to have stronger telepathy than the males, as they can make humans do things like kneeling (Rising Part 2, The Lost Boys). The Wraith Michael demonstrated that ability on Teyla so males might have it too. I don’t know of any episode where the Wraith demonstrated telekinesis. The Ancients have abilities of telekinesis (Prototype), telepathy (Frozen), regeneration (Prototype, Frozen), healing of others (Frozen, Lost City part 2), regeneration (Frozen), pyrokinetics (Prototype) (which is related to telekinesis), influence over electro-magnetic fields and electronic devices (also related to telekinesis) (Rite of Passage) occasional foresight (Prophecy). All Ancients as individuals might not have had all these abilities, but as a race they did which makes them very powerful. But the level of power isn’t always what is important; the nature of the power can be more valuable. Wraith tech (including weapons) was inferior, but much of it is organic and like the Wraith it repairs and heals. The Wraith natural abilities aren’t as powerful (at least compared to the Ancients as a whole), but as their enemies grow weaker they grow stronger; they use their enemies’ strength against them.

So in conclusion, no the Wraith did not rival the Ancients in their technology, or their raw abilities. Yes, there are statements in the show they say they do rival each other, and there are episodes that say they don’t. The demonstrations of the technology show that the Ancients had better technology, including weapons. What the Wraith had was strategy, which was where they were superior. They just had to chip away at the Ancients defense, and that is how they won.

[Prior_of_the_Ori]

So in conclusion, no the Wraith did not rival the Ancients in their technology, or their raw abilities. Yes, there are statements in the show they say they do rival each other, and there are episodes that say they don’t. The demonstrations of the technology show that the Ancients had better technology, including weapons. What the Wraith had was strategy, which was where they were superior. They just had to chip away at the Ancients defense, and that is how they won.

Also combined with the fact that the Wraith had a much bigger population then the Lantians and used numbers to overwhelm them.

[MarshAngel]

Main Entry: 1ri•val
Pronunciation: 'rI-v&l
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin rivalis one using the same stream as another, rival in love, from rivalis of a stream, from rivus stream -- more at RUN
1 a : one of two or more striving to reach or obtain something that only one can possess b : one striving for competitive advantage
2 obsolete : COMPANION, ASSOCIATE
3 : one that equals another in desired qualities : PEER

I think it's a mistake to base an entire argument solely on a single dictionary definition. Especially when another dictionary defines it differently by the use of a single extra word.

1.) One who attempts to equal or surpass another, or who pursues the same object as another; a competitor.
2.) One that equals or almost equals another in a particular respect.

First off rival does mean equal, or at least near equal.

It doesn't mean equal. Rivalry refers to the competition under which one attempts to surpass or equal, which may result in success or failure.

Clearly, the wraith do not surpass the Ancients technologically, but it's not for lack of trying. Given the information at hand, in three galaxies so far we've heard of no one else as technologically advanced as the Ancients were several million years ago. But if the Wraith were as advanced as they are now, ten thousand years ago, (and millions of years after the Ancients left the milky way for a seemingly empty galaxy), then chances are high that the Wraith were the only extremely advanced race the ancients came across with even the potential to equal or surpass them.

We don't know how much butt the ancients have had to kick over the years, but if the last butt they attempted to kick, kicked them back, I believe it's safe to say they were rivaled.

Yes, there are statements in the show they say they do rival each other....

These would be the most relevant. The fact that they said so is fact until the writers change their mind.

...and there are episodes that say they don’t.

perhaps more appropriate would be: episodes that suggest they dont, which can be chalked up to deliberate attempts to muddle the issue, perceptions not shared by the writers, and (questionable) writing decisions which pave the way for us beating them because if they were truly superior there would be no chance.

The demonstrations of the technology show that the Ancients had better technology, including weapons. What the Wraith had was strategy, which was where they were superior. They just had to chip away at the Ancients defense, and that is how they won.

Absolutely true but a comparison is necessary. If every alien you came across were approximately at our technological level and suddenly you came across someone on the level of the Goauld, Aschen etc. who then tried to kill you, you'd be surprised enough to make note of the fact that, hey, there's a possibility I could get my butt kicked, superior tech or no. Hence, they are rivaled, just enough to make a difference.

The better question is, if the Wraith had slightly less advanced technology and the same or more numbers would the Ancients still have lost? Numbers may have tipped them over the edge but the tech had to be good enough in the first place to make a dent.

[the fifth man]

The asurans were created to fight the wraith. The writers have, effectively, reintroduced the replicators in a way.

And that works for me. I'm interested in seeing how TPTB portray this new enemy. Will they be just like the Replicators, or something different?

[JanusAncient]

I know the Ancients were arrogant, but I still, for the life of me, cannot figure out how the Wraith got so powerful in the first place. Still, though when it comes to the Asurans, it says that very powerful nanites were created, capable of attacking the Wraith at a cellular level. They evolved, and eventually became human formed machines. Here's my question, if they were created to fight the Wraith, when was this, was it early on after the great battle, the Ancient hologram spoke of, because if it wasn't, then the Ancients were fighting a war on two fronts. But, I don't think it was numbers, as in Ancients vs. Wraith, I believe it was more a matter of weapons, ships, drones, against Wraith firepower.