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The Tower Review - The Prime Directive?

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    The Tower Review - The Prime Directive?

    This post is directed at the review of The Tower posted on the main site.

    (spoilers)

    Teyla and Ronon incite revolution. Did they skip their lessons on the Prime Directive?
    Although I thought the episode in question was very silly, I just had to comment on this, as it struck me as very, very odd. It may have been meant as a joke, but on the off chance that it wasn't, I just have to point out the following:

    - The Prime Directive doesn't exist in Stargate
    - Even if it did, Teyla and Ronon are under no obligation to uphold it
    - Even if they were, the Prime Directive still isn't a particularly good idea. As an principle, it is intellectually bankrupt. The best that can be said of it is that it functions as an effective plot device to create drama and tension in certain episodes of Star Trek. O_o

    #2
    Originally posted by Scyld
    - Even if they were, the Prime Directive still isn't a particularly good idea. As an principle, it is intellectually bankrupt. The best that can be said of it is that it functions as an effective plot device to create drama and tension in certain episodes of Star Trek. O_o
    And since you say it then it must be true? Sorry, but I can think of quite a few instances and more than a few reasons why interfering with lesser-developed cultures is a bad idea. Does that make me intellectually bankrupt, too? Gosh, wouldn't my teachers be surprised.

    I don't think the reviewer was literally saying that the characters have to follow Trek's Prime Directive. However, if Teyla and Ronon are part of the Atlantis crew, then they are expected to uphold Atlantis's laws and policies. If Atlantis did have the equivalent of a Prime Directive, then Teyla and Ronon would be expected to adhere to it. Whatever else they are, they're also members of the premiere expeditionary force of Atlantis and they have to obey orders just like everyone else (usually).

    Tower
    Spoiler:
    Personally, I think that inciting the revolution was, in that instance, a bad idea. Not only because it's sharp sticks vs. Ancient drones, but because I'm not confident that those people would be able to fend for themselves without a lot of outside help... from Atlantis. I'm not saying they should continue to live under a dictatorship, but they didn't seem like a very intelligent bunch and while they were willing to fight once Teyla and Ronon backed them into a corner, I doubt they could have won on their own and I doubt they have the fortitude to carry forth and make their own decisions and choose their own form of government. Atlantis would have to stick around to wipe their noses for them and protect them from the other neighborhood bullies or they'd just collapse back to what they know best. *shrug*


    I agree whole-heartedly with the review. Every point made struck a chord with me and it's nice to know that the reviewers aren't going to sit there and pretend they liked something when they didn't. And it's also good to know that some people have limits about what they'll accept.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by ShadowMaat
      And since you say it then it must be true? Sorry, but I can think of quite a few instances and more than a few reasons why interfering with lesser-developed cultures is a bad idea. Does that make me intellectually bankrupt, too? Gosh, wouldn't my teachers be surprised.
      The difficulty arises in the question of what is meant by 'lesser-developed.' People are people, be it in the 24th century, the 20th century, or the 12th. We're further along technologically today than we were a thousand years ago, certainly... and already the problem of what is meant by 'further along' comes up. Further along towards what? Have we made great progress? Progressing towards what? Are we suggesting that there is some cosmic plan whereby races get better and better until they're finally perfect?

      The Prime Directive (and philosophies like it) presupposes that we are all naturally progressing towards... something. And that to 'interfere' in a race's progress towards that whatever it is would be wrong, because it might get them there before... what? Before the divine plan mandates that they should arrive there? Surely if it were a divine plan, it would have taken the outside interference into account from the beginning.

      I don't think the reviewer was literally saying that the characters have to follow Trek's Prime Directive. However, if Teyla and Ronon are part of the Atlantis crew, then they are expected to uphold Atlantis's laws and policies. If Atlantis did have the equivalent of a Prime Directive, then Teyla and Ronon would be expected to adhere to it. Whatever else they are, they're also members of the premiere expeditionary force of Atlantis and they have to obey orders just like everyone else (usually).
      Sure. But what orders did they violate? And how is what they did in the village different from what SG-1 did on a hundred different Goa'uld controlled worlds?

      Tower
      Spoiler:
      Personally, I think that inciting the revolution was, in that instance, a bad idea. Not only because it's sharp sticks vs. Ancient drones, but because I'm not confident that those people would be able to fend for themselves without a lot of outside help... from Atlantis. I'm not saying they should continue to live under a dictatorship, but they didn't seem like a very intelligent bunch and while they were willing to fight once Teyla and Ronon backed them into a corner, I doubt they could have won on their own and I doubt they have the fortitude to carry forth and make their own decisions and choose their own form of government. Atlantis would have to stick around to wipe their noses for them and protect them from the other neighborhood bullies or they'd just collapse back to what they know best. *shrug*
      Yeah, probably.

      I agree whole-heartedly with the review. Every point made struck a chord with me and it's nice to know that the reviewers aren't going to sit there and pretend they liked something when they didn't. And it's also good to know that some people have limits about what they'll accept.
      My own reaction to the episode was less severe than the reviewers. As I said, I thought it was very silly. I was a little annoyed by John Sheppard's rampant Kirkishness, but I didn't hate the episode (I didn't like it either, but I didn't hate it). It felt like the writers really weren't trying very hard, and certainly I had hoped for better, but that's about as far as it went for me.

      Comment


        #4
        No disrespect to the writers, but this was a bottle show. Redress Atlantis set, new dirt for farming community from SG-1 show where Cam is captured by Jaffa (Babylon), some Ren-Fair clothing.

        I fear that like many shows spawning copies of it (CSI), that the writers are being worn-out by the production schedule.

        But I’ll still watch it just to fill the void that is TV today.
        The very young, do not always do what they are told.

        "To me, my board" - Silver Surfer

        Comment


          #5
          While I understand that just by writing a review folks open themselves up to all sorts of criticism from people who disagree, I still don't understand why, exactly, some people feel compelled to personally attack the reviewers. They're voicing their opinions about the show, same as you voice your opinions.

          And is it worth pointing out that this is just a review of a TV show? A piece of fiction? Criticize the viewpoint, by all means; good debate is the lifeblood of the forum. But if you (generally speaking) are slagging REAL PEOPLE over a disagreement about a bunch of imaginary characters, well... Maybe it's time to step back and take a look at the bigger picture.

          Comment


            #6
            You know guys, we have yet to have a reviewer who has not been on the receiving end of 's/he's biased and predjudice and i wonder what show they were watching' or something along that line

            No one will EVER write a review that everyone agrees with

            but hey, they were willing to make the commitment to put thier opinion out there and take the time to do so. Quite voluntarily i may add.

            Agree or disagree with it, I would ask you to please respect their opinion. and if you (the general you) feel strongly enough about it, maybe when darren is recruiting folks to write reviews, you might want to consider volunteering yourself
            Where in the World is George Hammond?


            sigpic

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Scyld
              This post is directed at the review of The Tower posted on the main site.

              (spoilers)



              Although I thought the episode in question was very silly, I just had to comment on this, as it struck me as very, very odd. It may have been meant as a joke, but on the off chance that it wasn't, I just have to point out the following:

              - The Prime Directive doesn't exist in Stargate
              - Even if it did, Teyla and Ronon are under no obligation to uphold it
              - Even if they were, the Prime Directive still isn't a particularly good idea. As an principle, it is intellectually bankrupt. The best that can be said of it is that it functions as an effective plot device to create drama and tension in certain episodes of Star Trek. O_o
              Definitely agree. The Prime Directive is a creatoin of Star Trek, which although it's pop culture, it's not real. Both Teyla and Ronon have lived their entire lives under the constant threat of death by Wraith. Dying of natural causes appears to be a rarity, so you do what you need to in order to survive.

              My quibble with the review

              Sadly, there is also the Ugly: Ronon's decapitation of the soldier, the triteness of a medieval / feudal society existing in the Pegasus Galaxy, and the astonishing parallel development of lacy shirts, velvet jackets, brocades and the like.

              Ronon slit the guy's throat, didn't decapitate him, which requires the complete removal of the head... However, slit throat, decapitation, whatever, should have been some good spurts of blood, or at least some blood spatter. When they took away the body (head still attached) there was barely any blood...

              Do agree on the ugly. Velvet jackets are just plain ugh.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Scyld
                The difficulty arises in the question of what is meant by 'lesser-developed.' People are people, be it in the 24th century, the 20th century, or the 12th. We're further along technologically today than we were a thousand years ago, certainly... and already the problem of what is meant by 'further along' comes up. Further along towards what? Have we made great progress? Progressing towards what? Are we suggesting that there is some cosmic plan whereby races get better and better until they're finally perfect?
                The people of that world were less developed in terms of technology, sociology, economics, education, etc. Particularly the "peasant class" running the farms and whatnot. They haven't devloped through experience, they've been thrust into the middle of something they probably can't even put into context.

                Of course, arguments could probably be made that most cultures experience sudden leaps forward and that the situation at the end of The Tower is just another example of that. But generally speaking, when a culture encounters a group from a higher tech/social base, that culture tends to be decimated. Aztecs, Incas, Indians, etc. Things tend to go very poorly for the "lesser developed" people- even if those people are more sophisticated than their counterparts in certain areas of knowledge.

                Fascinating subject, but I'm not sure how relevant it is to a discussion about the review of The Tower. Except maybe that Teyla and Ronon should have thought a bit more about whether or not the people were ready and able to lead themselves and I think that may be the point the reviewer was trying to make. At the very least, that's what I thought about the ep, myself.


                Sure. But what orders did they violate? And how is what they did in the village different from what SG-1 did on a hundred different Goa'uld controlled worlds?
                It wasn't a question of whether or not they obeyed orders. You had said that they were "under no obligation to uphold [Atlantis's Prime Directive]" and I was refuting that statement. Unless I missed the original point of it. Which, given my scattered attention this week, is entirely possible.
                Last edited by ShadowMaat; 09 February 2006, 07:42 PM.

                Comment


                  #9
                  I think our reivewer friend was having a few sleepless nights

                  1. The drones and Jumpers were treaded for gene tec

                  2. They got an IDC, our if assistance if the wrath ever came back

                  the things I liked

                  1. every one in the city was a pig they may as well eat out of a troff

                  2. when mara is naked that whole seen was just funny
                  (espacly when she throughes John on the bed)

                  3. Rodney's village guide doesn't seam half as doppey as the rest of them

                  4. john said "if you think I am going to sit here and let you wip him" (he was standing)

                  5. Ortho, I never seen thought he was as bad as the rest of them, well at least until we found out (a testament to the actors skill)

                  6. Tavious burping and fixing his teeth after his father fell ill at the super table

                  7. when john replied to Tavious after he said "the villagers are mindless brutes" I think he should have said "it takes one to know one"
                  C. Edmund

                  Comment


                    #10
                    that review had me rolling in the floor! Best review for the worst episode in Stargate history

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by ShadowMaat
                      While I understand that just by writing a review folks open themselves up to all sorts of criticism from people who disagree, I still don't understand why, exactly, some people feel compelled to personally attack the reviewers. They're voicing their opinions about the show, same as you voice your opinions.

                      And is it worth pointing out that this is just a review of a TV show? A piece of fiction? Criticize the viewpoint, by all means; good debate is the lifeblood of the forum. But if you (generally speaking) are slagging REAL PEOPLE over a disagreement about a bunch of imaginary characters, well... Maybe it's time to step back and take a look at the bigger picture.
                      Which part of my post was an attack? O_o
                      Shall I create a summary of my position? Here it is:

                      "While I don't disagree that it was an uninspired episode, I thought the reviewer was a bit overly harsh, and (assuming they weren't joking) I didn't understand why on Earth they thought that the Atlantis expedition should hold to the Prime Directive."

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Not you, Scyld. The post in question was deleted by the mods. But just in general it seems like a good idea to remind folks of the "ground rules" since certain people seem to think that someone saying "This ep sucked" means that it's perfectly OK to retaliate with, "No, YOU'RE the one who sucks!" and comments of a similar and very personal nature.

                        It's a TV show, people, not a member of your immediate family. Get over it.

                        Originally posted by Atlanis
                        1. The drones and Jumpers were treaded for gene tec
                        And that's supposed to make it OK? Given what we've seen of Tower society and of the Oppressed Villagers from Central Casting, do you really think the gene tech is going to do them any good? Or that it'll be used properly? Without supervision?

                        I'm sure the villagers will sleep much better at night knowing that when they wake up to find the Wraith culling their village, all they have to do is go running to the stargate and call for help. Oh but wait, we already know that the Wraith like to keep the stargates active so folks can't escape, so... *shrug* Guess it's a good thing they don't know that part.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by ShadowMaat
                          Not you, Scyld. The post in question was deleted by the mods. But just in general it seems like a good idea to remind folks of the "ground rules" since certain people seem to think that someone saying "This ep sucked" means that it's perfectly OK to retaliate with, "No, YOU'RE the one who sucks!" and comments of a similar and very personal nature.

                          It's a TV show, people, not a member of your immediate family. Get over it.


                          And that's supposed to make it OK? Given what we've seen of Tower society and of the Oppressed Villagers from Central Casting, do you really think the gene tech is going to do them any good? Or that it'll be used properly? Without supervision?

                          I'm sure the villagers will sleep much better at night knowing that when they wake up to find the Wraith culling their village, all they have to do is go running to the stargate and call for help. Oh but wait, we already know that the Wraith like to keep the stargates active so folks can't escape, so... *shrug* Guess it's a good thing they don't know that part.

                          Looking at the episode do you think there is a link between it and the Iraq war?

                          What right did Atlantis have to supress the leaders who had control over superior/equal weapons to Atlantis who opressed the local population.

                          In the end Atlantis agreed to help out the population if the Wraith ever came in return for Drones and the population were no longer under threat from those who lived in the tower.
                          Support Stargate and Stargate Atlantis to be made avalaible via i-tunes, write your support on this thread and vote in the poll to get Sony to put the show on i-tunes.
                          http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=23944

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by AndyStargateUK
                            Looking at the episode do you think there is a link between it and the Iraq war?
                            I'd rather not bring current politics into this discussion. That would only fan the flames higher.


                            In the end Atlantis agreed to help out the population if the Wraith ever came in return for Drones and the population were no longer under threat from those who lived in the tower.
                            Given a choice between an Oppressive Leader and a impartial race of Genocidal Monsters, I'll take the Oppressive Leader. It may be more of a constant interference in my life, but at least I and my friends and family won't wind up as someone's dinner.

                            Plus, as I said, the chances of the Atlantis crew being able to do anything useful to save the planet from a Wraith culling are pretty slim. Assuming the locals can even manage to get out a plea for help (see above re: Wraith tactics), the attack will already be happening when they do. It'll take even MORE time to get a force together to try and repel the Wraith. Plus there's the fact that technically, Atlantis isn't supposed to exist anymore, so if they DO go riding to the rescue, they'd better make damn sure they get every single wraith out there and pray that the ships didn't send off a signal to the others saying, "Hey, those jumped-up horny toads occupying Atlantis are still around!"

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Nice reveiw.
                              Joseph Mallozzi -"In the meantime, I'm into season 5 of OZ (where the show takes an unfortunate hairpin turn into "the not so wonderful world of fantasy")"

                              ^^^ Kinda sounds like seasons 9 and 10 of SG-1 to me. Thor, ya got Aspirin?

                              AGateFan has officially Gone Fishin (with Jack, Sam, Daniel, Teal'c) and is hoping Atlantis does not take that same hairpin turn.

                              Comment

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