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kree
July 18th, 2004, 06:08 PM
I love Atlantis, so please don't take this the wrong way but I noticed a serious flaw with the new gate. There are no moving parts, which is pretty cool. The problem is with the fact there are no moving parts. How would the team establish a wormhole if say, the DHD went down? At least with the older gates they could manually hand-dial the address. This may sound selfish, but I hope there is an episode dedicated to something like this, ala The Torment of Tantalus.

Seems to me the Ancients should have done some beta testing before releasing the new gates to the public :p

Mio
July 18th, 2004, 06:27 PM
I love Atlantis, so please don't take this the wrong way but I noticed a serious flaw with the new gate. There are no moving parts, which is pretty cool. The problem is with the fact there are no moving parts. How would the team establish a wormhole if say, the DHD went down? At least with the older gates they could manually hand-dial the address. This may sound selfish, but I hope there is an episode dedicated to something like this, ala The Torment of Tantalus.

Seems to me the Ancients should have done some beta testing before releasing the new gates to the public :p Theoretically, manual dialing should never work. it doesn't make any sense, as planetary drift throws it off, and without a DHD to send actual COORDINATES instead of 6 symbols to the gate, you should only be able to get a lock on like, one world, and even then, probably not. When they started Atlantis, they probably decided to do away with it for this reason.

kree
July 18th, 2004, 06:34 PM
It still doesnt answer the question of "what if the DHD is disabled?" seems to me they would be up the creek without a paddle unless they have a puddle jumper handy.

EYU86
July 18th, 2004, 06:36 PM
It still doesnt answer the question of "what if the DHD is disabled?" seems to me they would be up the creek without a paddle unless they have a puddle jumper handy.
Did Mio just not say that the series probably wouldn't be heading down that road again.

Hellcat
July 18th, 2004, 06:36 PM
The only "coordinates" the gates gets (even through the DHD) are the 6 symbols!

Carter stated somewhere beginning season 1 they had to recalculate those to compensate for the drift.

Maybe the "positions" of the starconstelletions that the symbols represent have to be updated from time to time - but once that's done dialing manually shouldn't be a problem.

Mio
July 18th, 2004, 06:36 PM
If the DHD is disabled, on ANY Stargate, even the old version, manual dialing STILL should not work. It was just a convienient plot device that wasn't sound with the rest of their universe.

Mio
July 18th, 2004, 08:04 PM
The only "coordinates" the gates gets (even through the DHD) are the 6 symbols!

Carter stated somewhere beginning season 1 they had to recalculate those to compensate for the drift.

Maybe the "positions" of the starconstelletions that the symbols represent have to be updated from time to time - but once that's done dialing manually shouldn't be a problem.
I don't think so.

I think the DHD sends over to the gate the following signal:

Actual Spacial Coordiates
6 Symbols, for display purposes.

Selmak
July 18th, 2004, 10:27 PM
If the Atlantis gate's DHD goes down they could us the DHD on one of the puddle jumpers to dial.

Bogopimp
July 18th, 2004, 11:13 PM
If the Atlantis gate's DHD goes down they could us the DHD on one of the puddle jumpers to dial.
whats that got to do with anything!?!?

and i agree that if the DHD in inoperable then itd have to be physicsally destroyed before manual dialling is possible! What do you mean about aqddress's changing? Do you mean eartyh has a differant address from each planet ? Thatd just be crazy cause everyone would get stuck offworld. Thus, when the system was BUILT each targets location must have been locked into the DHD system as a planet, and since then the DHD's have been able to compensate without changing the symbolism. This also goes for the stargate compouter on earth!

Also... how many stargates are there meant to be in pegasus... didnt someone say 700 and something? Seems a bit low to me!

Xzyl
July 18th, 2004, 11:25 PM
I am thinking that Atlantis probly has some hanheld remote dialers hidden in there somewhere. But I am with Selmak on this, its no big deal just use a dialer on one of the ships. If a team arrived on a planet by walking though the gate and the dialer on that planet was destroyed SGA command could still just send a ship through to pick up everyone and dial back.

Torley
July 18th, 2004, 11:26 PM
They may find a way to hack it internally and be able to speed-dial, methinks. The Ancients wouldn't be that shortsighted (I hope). as Lindley on TrekBBS pointed out to me, it's kind of like the SG-1 Gates are analog, these ones are digital! Can we assume these are newer models too (even given their Ancient age).

Anthro Girl
July 19th, 2004, 12:28 AM
I posted this in another thread and was referred here so...

Question: The Atlantis gate appears to be more advanced than the SG-1 gates. At least it does have more "blinky-light-thingies". So which gate is supposed to be the 1st generation and which is the 2nd generation? Or are they just different because our galaxy lacks "blinky-light" technology? :p

Hellcat
July 19th, 2004, 12:33 AM
I don't think so.

I think the DHD sends over to the gate the following signal:

Actual Spacial Coordiates
6 Symbols, for display purposes.Wouldn't make sense IMO.
Why build all that symbol stuff just for display purpose.

And if so, manual dial would never have been worked, but it did oh so many times....

Mio
July 19th, 2004, 07:49 AM
Wouldn't make sense IMO.
Why build all that symbol stuff just for display purpose.

And if so, manual dial would never have been worked, but it did oh so many times....
When you're that advanced, adding a little 'form before function' isn't a problem.

aAnubiSs
July 19th, 2004, 07:51 AM
So that the less advanced races (us) could understand it.

VirtualCLD
July 19th, 2004, 07:56 AM
Question: Maybe this was addressed, but can you manually dial the Atlantis-style/Pegasus-style gate?

Anthro Girl
July 19th, 2004, 08:00 AM
Question: Maybe this was addressed, but can you manually dial the Atlantis-style/Pegasus-style gate?See the beginning part of this thread. The assumption is no because there does not seem to be any moving parts. However, as with practically everything in Atlantis, this remains to be seen.

VirtualCLD
July 19th, 2004, 08:13 AM
Ah yes, my apologies. I do have another question/concern (not sure if ti fits here) and I'll do my best to make as much sense as possible. In terms of actually building the Atlantis stargate prop, it appears that there are many unique LED patterns (in theory 39? but some are burried?). Now, I believe each of the patterns that are visible are physically fixed at their location on the gate. This means, when they do the dialing sequence for the show, we see each of the symbols flash quickly in a rotating order. To try and explain, let's say the "dial" a symbol that looks like a "K" (if you conect the dots). As far as teh prop is concerned, the K doesn't really rotate around the gate, they are just quickly flashing through most of the symbols (possibly starting with the L), untill they get to the desired chevron locking position. now they can kind of get away with this because it moves so quickly, you really can't tell what's going on. Now, in terms of the Stargate Atlantis universe, is the actual "K" symbol supposed to rotate around the gate to the locking position, or is it supposed to operate just like the prop is doing in real life (or at least how I assume the prop is operating)? That was kind of long for one question and I hope I made sense. I'm sorry if I confuse anyone/crushed people's belief that Stargate Atlantis is real life.

aAnubiSs
July 19th, 2004, 08:15 AM
Well it's not hard to do in real life. So if they chose that a symbol shouldn't rotate they probably have some good reasoning behind it.

Anthro Girl
July 19th, 2004, 08:18 AM
I'm sorry if I confuse anyone/crushed people's belief that Stargate Atlantis is real life.
It's NOT?!? :eek:

:D I don't know the answer to your question, but I'm sure you'll get lots of opinions. I don't think the light patterns are random, however. They appear in closeup to look like star constellations. I think the actual prop just flashes patterns around the gate until lighting one up under the chevron marker. I'm not sure if it is supposed to appear as if the chevrons are going around the gate.

VirtualCLD
July 19th, 2004, 08:24 AM
No, I think it would be very hard to do it in real life, well without moving parts and they move way to fast to be moving parts....

No, I take that back, you're right, it's very easy to do it in real life. Just have each space on the stargate be a grid-array of LEDs. I guess, from waching the show, it didn't look like they used an array of LEDs at each position, it looked solid.

BUT HEY!! You could put a piece of scrim ovr each section, or better yet, make the entire flat front piece of the gate where the symbols are out of scrim. That way, when lit with the FOH lighting position, it appears solid, but when you turn on the LEDs behind the scrim, you would see the symbol through the scrim and you could make it appear in any position you need it to appear in. That would be a perfect way to do it, if you could get the painting on the scrim just right... :: runs off to start designing his own life sized gate ::

Oh that's right, money. Scrim is uber-expensive, and all of those LED arrays ain't gonna be cheap either. Money concerns always run up and bite me in the @r$e.

aAnubiSs
July 19th, 2004, 08:25 AM
LED:s are very very very cheap.

VirtualCLD
July 19th, 2004, 08:29 AM
Yes, but not when you want Superbright LEDs in grid array formations, then they get to be not so cheap. Especially if you want 39 grid array LEDs, which will have to mounted on a PCB. I could design my own and have it fabbed out-of-house, but a ustom job would probably be even more expensive than getting 39 pre-fabbed arrays. It might not be that expensive for all 39 (maybe 100-200 US dollars if I'm lucky, but these are Superbrights we're talking about), but the scrim WILL definately be expensive.

aAnubiSs
July 19th, 2004, 08:30 AM
expensive compared to what? each SG1 ep is $2.2M.

VirtualCLD
July 19th, 2004, 08:45 AM
I'm talking about building my own. Expensive compared to the measly amount of money I have (mostly tied up in school loans).

Mio
July 19th, 2004, 08:46 AM
If you watch it in half speed, you'll find that if you dial a 'K' symbol, a 'K' would rotate around the whole gate.

It has to be an array of LEDs.

Hellcat
July 19th, 2004, 08:48 AM
Hey, in bet in an upcomming special / behind-the-scenes they will tell us how they build the prop :)

At least on the retail DVDs it will be revealed :D

Anthro Girl
July 19th, 2004, 08:50 AM
I'm talking about building my own. Expensive compared to the measly amount of money I have (mostly tied up in school loans).
So, did school not result in gainful employment? :p

I keep thinking "Lite-Brite, Lite-Brite, Lite-Brite", but then I'm old that way. :D I'm sure they use an array of LEDs. Cheap and easy to program. Bet it's lots of fun at holiday parties, too! ;)

VirtualCLD
July 19th, 2004, 08:52 AM
So, did school not result in gainful employment? :p

I keep thinking "Lite-Brite, Lite-Brite, Lite-Brite", but then I'm old that way. :D I'm sure they use an array of LEDs. Cheap and easy to program. Bet it's lots of fun at holiday parties, too! ;)
No, it resulted in 5 more years of school.

Anthro Girl
July 19th, 2004, 08:56 AM
No, it resulted in 5 more years of school.
Damn! Hate it when that happens! :D

If it's for engineering, a Stargate would make a fun project. ;)

VirtualCLD
July 19th, 2004, 08:59 AM
Electrical and Computer Engineering. Therefore, the Atlantis Stargate would make more sense for me... Although the origianl stargate would test what i learned in controls (i.e. motor control)...

Joe
July 19th, 2004, 05:24 PM
Electrical and Computer Engineering. Therefore, the Atlantis Stargate would make more sense for me... Although the origianl stargate would test what i learned in controls (i.e. motor control)...It would be cool if some one can a small original stargate that can fit in a pinball machine.

EYU86
July 19th, 2004, 05:28 PM
It would be cool if some one can a small original stargate that can fit in a pinball machine.
Why a pinball machine?

DownFallAngel
July 19th, 2004, 05:31 PM
I like the new design.

Pinball is crazy!!! Thats why we need a SG1 pinball game. Like everytime we hit the bumpers, it goes "CHEVRON 1 ENCODED!" and then at 7 it opens up a wormhole for like bonus and stuff, that would be cool.

EYU86
July 19th, 2004, 05:34 PM
I like the new design.

Pinball is crazy!!! Thats why we need a SG1 pinball game. Like everytime we hit the bumpers, it goes "CHEVRON 1 ENCODED!" and then at 7 it opens up a wormhole for like bonus and stuff, that would be cool.
Actually the way you described it would be pretty cool, except the whole saying chevron one encoded. Should be the Chevron locking sound.

DownFallAngel
July 19th, 2004, 05:53 PM
I would have the sound after the voice saying the line. Then have like this little gate spinning, and locking it in place, it would be hot.

Joe
July 20th, 2004, 02:29 PM
Actually the way you described it would be pretty cool, except the whole saying chevron one encoded. Should be the Chevron locking sound.and have it lock in too aslo have a iris you can hit with a ball

Joe
July 20th, 2004, 03:48 PM
I like the new design.

Pinball is crazy!!! Thats why we need a SG1 pinball game. Like everytime we hit the bumpers, it goes "CHEVRON 1 ENCODED!" and then at 7 it opens up a wormhole for like bonus and stuff, that would be cool.No make it dial the gate at the start of a mode.

DownFallAngel
July 20th, 2004, 03:50 PM
How about you don't question my SG Pinball design!? lol

Orange Crush
July 20th, 2004, 05:27 PM
Based on the Gates in the milky way galaxy

(from the omnipedia)
The inner track is a safety feature. When the gate has absorbed enough energy this track will unlock, allowing a manual dial in case something dire has occurred to the D.H.D.

So, presumably, the Pegasus gates would do the same thing if the DHD were taken out of comission . . . give the gate enough power, and the inner track will probably unlock and allow a manual dial.

-Nick

Mio
July 20th, 2004, 05:38 PM
Based on the Gates in the milky way galaxy

(from the omnipedia)

So, presumably, the Pegasus gates would do the same thing if the DHD were taken out of comission . . . give the gate enough power, and the inner track will probably unlock and allow a manual dial.

-Nick
There are no moving parts.


Plus, again, manual dialing doesn't fit with any other stargate science we've seen. Why bother having DHDs capable of calculated planetary drift if all you need is the inner track to spin? Why does the SGC need to use several supercomputers to calculate the drift to a planet once they have the address?

UGH

Joe
July 20th, 2004, 05:46 PM
How about you don't question my SG Pinball design!? lolI have played a lot pinball games What I'm saying would work better for a pinball game.

You should come hear and talk about it http://www.vpforums.com/forum/

Azrial
July 20th, 2004, 07:03 PM
The stargate symbols on the atlantis gate are computer generated during post production i'm pretty sure. I remember them saying so in one of the previews to atlantis.

when they dial the gate a symbol spins from its default position to the corresponding chevron and locks in and this continues till the gate is activated when the rest of the symbols are displayed again. The actual physical gate doesn't move though...just the computer generated picture

Also the atlantis gate is unique i believe because they use dots to show the constellations where the gate on the first planet they go to (cbf finding the name) uses similar icons to SG1 i.e. pictorial representations of constellations

Mio
July 20th, 2004, 07:59 PM
The stargate symbols on the atlantis gate are computer generated during post production i'm pretty sure. I remember them saying so in one of the previews to atlantis.

when they dial the gate a symbol spins from its default position to the corresponding chevron and locks in and this continues till the gate is activated when the rest of the symbols are displayed again. The actual physical gate doesn't move though...just the computer generated picture

Also the atlantis gate is unique i believe because they use dots to show the constellations where the gate on the first planet they go to (cbf finding the name) uses similar icons to SG1 i.e. pictorial representations of constellations
I could have sworn that i read that the only thing done with CG was the puddle effect.

TechnoBoY
July 21st, 2004, 06:34 AM
Arent the symbols just some bright blue colored LEDs?!? Thats what it looks like.

VirtualCLD
July 21st, 2004, 06:38 AM
I think their white Superbright LEDs, but yeah, I thought the symbols are not CG, just a grid array of LEDs at each position that can form any constellation they need to. (White Superbrights have a "blueshift" especially when transistioning between "on" and "off")

Orange Crush
July 21st, 2004, 12:43 PM
There are no moving parts.


Plus, again, manual dialing doesn't fit with any other stargate science we've seen. Why bother having DHDs capable of calculated planetary drift if all you need is the inner track to spin? Why does the SGC need to use several supercomputers to calculate the drift to a planet once they have the address?

UGH
Sure it does. We've seen it before on SG-1. How are you so sure the gates have no moving parts? The only reason the Milky Way gates don't spin is because they have a DHD attached. As has been established on screen in SG-1--you apply enough power to a DHD-less gate and the inner track will unlock and spin freely allowing a manual dial. The gate on Earth has no DHD and is controlled by computer, so it has to be dialed by spinning. In reality, this is a production cost saving method since it's cheaper to have a solid non-moving gate prop for their location shots, yet they can keep the cool spinning gate at the SGC.

I've seen no reason so far to see that this is not the case in Atlantis (which has a DHD and doesn't need to spin). For all we know, those gates might be able to spin if the DHD's are knocked out of comission.

It does create a problem w/ the stellar drift compensation, but that only happens once every few centuries anyway, so a disconnected gate should still work manually for a few hundred years.

-Nick

Mio
July 21st, 2004, 12:45 PM
Sure it does. We've seen it before on SG-1. How are you so sure the gates have no moving parts? The only reason the Milky Way gates don't spin is because they have a DHD attached. As has been established on screen in SG-1--you apply enough power to a DHD-less gate and the inner track will unlock and spin freely allowing a manual dial. The gate on Earth has no DHD and is controlled by computer, so it has to be dialed by spinning. In reality, this is a production cost saving method since it's cheaper to have a solid non-moving gate prop for their location shots, yet they can keep the cool spinning gate at the SGC.

I've seen no reason so far to see that this is not the case in Atlantis (which has a DHD and doesn't need to spin). For all we know, those gates might be able to spin if the DHD's are knocked out of comission.

It does create a problem w/ the stellar drift compensation, but that only happens once every few centuries anyway, so a disconnected gate should still work manually for a few hundred years.

-Nick i was talking about Atlantis gates not having moving parts.

And I believe carter said that we communicate with the gate by electrical pulses. so, we send the correct pulses, it spins to the right spot. An error pops it, it sends some pulses back.

Draegos of Texas
July 21st, 2004, 01:07 PM
There are no moving parts.

Plus, again, manual dialing doesn't fit with any other stargate science we've seen. Why bother having DHDs capable of calculated planetary drift if all you need is the inner track to spin? Why does the SGC need to use several supercomputers to calculate the drift to a planet once they have the address?

UGH


Well, manual "rotary" dialing predates every other aspect of "stargate science," it was the only means of dialing a gate in the movie, and it's used by the SGC in virtually every episode of SG-1. So rather than simply dismiss an obvious, integral part of the entire Stargate premise, maybe we can look a little closer in the series for a more reasonable explanation.

I was under the impression that the DHD doesn't actually store gate coordinate information. The Stargate itself does that. Rather, the DHD component can call up that information, recalculate and update it, and then send this updated data back to the Stargate. The DHD seems to be more of a dedicated correction tool with a dialing padded added for extra convinience; "24 Hours" established that it corrects against things like leftover information being stuck in the pattern buffer, recall. This makes much more sense to me. It also explains how Carter's program to correct for stellar drift works; it's feeding its results directly into the Stargate, just like a DHD would.

Perhaps the DHDs were originally a late addition to the Stargate network, while the Ancients were still only building the network; an extra peice to suppliment the most basic required machanisms which the Stargate already contains. The Stargates seem to be made to be fully self-contained on the most basic level; all the machanisms and technologies required to open a wormhole to another gate is encorporated into a Stargate. This makes them modular; you can just drop one on a planet, and leave it; no further setup required. If you find yourself going to that planet a lot, then you march a DHD through with you and set it up.

Of course, after a few million years the Stargate network is so vital to the Ancients society's commerce that virtually every gate has a DHD eventually.

That's what DHD-centric episodes like "Avenger 2.0" and "24 Hours" seem to be hinting at. At least, the part about the DHD not storing coordinates, only performing the calculations needed to update them. This makes a lot more sense, and perfectly gells with all the 'gate behavior we've observed over the years, so it's what I tend to believe.

(Edit: fixed some minor grammar errors.)