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8th Chevron
July 18th, 2004, 01:00 PM
Is there no question that the Wraith are indeed the race that defeated the Ancients in the Pegasus galaxy? While there was a good deal of allusion to this, it was never clearly stated. I'll admit that a lot of what was revealed in the Ancient hologram recording parallel's the stardard Wraith MO, but it just doesn't seem to fit in my opinion.

I would think that a race that rivals the Ancients in technology and evolution would be incontestable to a race as unevolved as 21st century humans. If this battle for the galaxy indeed occurred million of years ago, it should be safe to assume that the Wraith would have progressed even futher. I can't believe they are content to feed off humans for this amount of time without advancing their civilization. After all, they couldn't have defeated the ancients by being a stagnant race of simple predators.

I guess I'm just expecting too much for a TV show, but I felt that the producers developed the Goa'uld believably and expect the same for Atlantis. Maybe a million years is just too large of a timespan to comprehend.

Dave

DownFallAngel
July 18th, 2004, 01:09 PM
The Hologram said it was a dark and power enemy, then she said it began to spread of much of the galaxy, or something. We have a good idea it is the wraith.

VirtualCLD
July 18th, 2004, 01:16 PM
It seems that TPTB have left room for pulling a twist on us and introduce a new species as the enemy. For now, it is pretty clear that the Wraiths are the Ancients' enemy.

Mio
July 18th, 2004, 01:18 PM
'we set foot upon a dark world where a terrible enemy lay in slumber' Or something like that.

The bulk of the wraith are always in hibernation. That proves that the enemy is the wraith.

Manic
July 18th, 2004, 01:44 PM
'we set foot upon a dark world where a terrible enemy lay in slumber' Or something like that.

The bulk of the wraith are always in hibernation. That proves that the enemy is the wraith.
Actually, that alludes to the enemy being the Wraith. There could be another race of advanced beings out there, also currently sleeping. The Wraith don't look like they'll be that difficult to defeat, once the Atlantis Team gets used to the Ancients' weapons. The Wraiths' weapons even look weak. Did you see the way they barely left a dent on the walls when the stray dart-shots fired through the gate? All the At-Team would have to do is sit Beckett down in a chair, and unleash the jellyfish of doom on the Wraith homeworld.

Ugly Pig
July 18th, 2004, 01:50 PM
Remember that Teyla had never met anyone who didn't know who the wraith were. That proves that the wraith are indeed the big baddies around. Which would mean that if there was another bunch of advanced aliens around, the wraith would have had to beat them at some point to become the dominant species. And I can't see them doing that to someone else who were powerful enough to beat the Ancients.

Manic
July 18th, 2004, 01:54 PM
Unless the alleged "mystery race" went to sleep soon after the Ancients fled, and the Wraith woke up soon after. And, you know, the mystery race stayed asleep for over 10,000 years. In a world of convenient plot devices, anything can happen.

Ugly Pig
July 18th, 2004, 01:57 PM
That is, of course, presuming this other race needs centuries of sleep like the Wraith. Yeah, that's probable. ;)

Blue_Revan
July 18th, 2004, 02:51 PM
the wraith are just wasting time sleeping, so they arent evolving at all. there just sleeping.

Tannis
July 18th, 2004, 03:01 PM
We know the Wraith are the Ancients' enemy that defeated them.



Annals of the Curator of the Feeding Grounds, in the first rotation of the New Awakening of the Wraith.

"Entry the second.

"Signs have come from among the herd, signs we have not known since the Awakening of the Great War. Our scouts, pursuing these signs, ensnared a group of strange humans trespassing upon the grounds of our stewardship. Their prime male was strong, but our lady, the Keeper of the Sleep, nonetheless took from his mind tidings of his home territory — a fertile world swarming with prey. This world, Earth, is far from here and the route there is unknown, but a banquet spread cannot be ignored. We do not doubt that we will one day reach this bounty and devour it in an orgy of great strengthening and joy.

"Barring our way, however, stand our Ancient Enemies. We know this because more new humans invaded our hive to free those whom our scouts had corralled. Their leader, a persistent beast, bore with him a piece of Enemy technology. He killed the Keeper of the Sleep, whose dying voice triggered our glorious Awakening. The male human then fled our wrath with his fellow creatures. Those of us who pursued him say he learned quickly, teaching his small herd to ignore our deceptive shadows. Surely a mere game animal, however canny, could not accomplish so much, so fast, without help.

"So he has had help — and this means the Enemy Technology is awake. We must therefore assume that the Ancient Enemies themselves, those who built the star portals and the city on the water, are awake as well.

"They are foul perversions. They condemn us merely because humans are the food we must eat. If they could, our Ancient Enemies would forbid us this food until we died of starvation. They deny nature itself in their monstrous arrogance.

"Therefore, we welcome our Ancient Enemies' coming, so that we may finally exterminate them, as is our right. Our people shall not be hungry."

This is from the official SciFi Atlantis website under the alien section. We find out exactly what the Wraith know and what they assume. The Keeper recognized what Sheppard was carrying as a device of the Ancients. They think that the Ancients sleep like they do apparently and have come to the conclusion they are back, when in fact it is their descendents that are back, namely us.

I do find it interesting though that the Wraith identify the Ancient Enemies separately from "humans". Could it be they think the Ancients and humans are two different species? Or are the just distinguishing between the technologically advanced Ancients and the primitive humans inhabiting their galaxy?

8th Chevron
July 18th, 2004, 05:41 PM
Could it be they think the Ancients and humans are two different species? Or are the(y) just distinguishing between the technologically advanced Ancients and the primitive humans inhabiting their galaxy?

I would assume they could identify the difference. It's my assumption that the Ancients seed and raise a less-evolved form of humans, the second evolution of their form. It makes sense to me that a race so advanced would do that, somewhat akin to playing god. It's possible that before ascention, they believed it was their duty. Gardeners of their galaxy.

Dave

Fonzavitch
July 18th, 2004, 05:48 PM
I think the reason they didnt progress was beacause they were all napping. Once the "caretaker" was killed they were risen again. They mother ship is covered in tress. which means it must of been dormant for quite a while

Lugal
July 18th, 2004, 07:40 PM
Is there no question that the Wraith are indeed the race that defeated the Ancients in the Pegasus galaxy? While there was a good deal of allusion to this, it was never clearly stated. I'll admit that a lot of what was revealed in the Ancient hologram recording parallel's the stardard Wraith MO, but it just doesn't seem to fit in my opinion.

The Hologram said they arrived to find the galaxy apparently lifeless, until they woke the Wraith. It's possible the Wraith wiped out all other life and went into hibernation until the Ancients came. After conquering the human seeded worlds, they would have learned to keep the herds around.


I would think that a race that rivals the Ancients in technology and evolution would be incontestable to a race as unevolved as 21st century humans. If this battle for the galaxy indeed occurred million of years ago, it should be safe to assume that the Wraith would have progressed even futher. I can't believe they are content to feed off humans for this amount of time without advancing their civilization. After all, they couldn't have defeated the ancients by being a stagnant race of simple predators.


It's possible that the war between them ended only a few thousand years ago. They submerged the city and returned to earth where the Greeks (or the Egyptians going by Platos account) learn of the legend of Atlantis. The wraith keeper also suggested that their herds have not been so good for 10,000 years.

Bart12
July 18th, 2004, 07:52 PM
I've heard a lot of people say that the Wraith could not be the Ancient's enemy one of the reasons being that the Wraith dart ships don't do that much damage and are easily taken out by the Puddle jumper. The darts weapons might suck but maybe the Wraith's mothership or ships have much more powerful weapons. Also, I think that when they "seeded" the Pegasus galaxy, not all the new humans were as advanced as them. Also as far as we know, the Ancients might not have had any motherships, Atlantis could have been their only powerbase, thats why it could have survived. Well, i'm new and that's just my theory.

Tannis
July 18th, 2004, 07:58 PM
I would assume they could identify the difference. It's my assumption that the Ancients seed and raise a less-evolved form of humans, the second evolution of their form. It makes sense to me that a race so advanced would do that, somewhat akin to playing god. It's possible that before ascention, they believed it was their duty. Gardeners of their galaxy.
Dave
That does make sense, given the attitude evidenced by the Wraith in the Journal above. It speaks of the Ancients
:"They condemn us merely because humans are the food we must eat. If they could, our Ancient Enemies would forbid us this food until we died of starvation. They deny nature itself in their monstrous arrogance.

So it would seem at least the Wraith believe that the Ancients were "arrogant" and probably believed they were the best thing out there.. even maybe that they were "gods" of some sort. The Holoancient, if I remember correctly, did say that until they met the Wraith they had not met any civilization that was as advanced as them.

So it is possible that they themselves above everyone else. I would also assume that they seeded planets maybe not with actual beings but perhaps 'nudged' evolution in the proper direction to evolve humanoids, or even so far as to alter the way things were developing on planets to encourage humanoid life to evolve.

In the Stargate universe it would seem logical even to propose that the Ancients were what was responsible for Cro-magan man disappearing in favor of Homo-sapiens 50,000 or so years ago. Just a thought :)

CCShadow
July 18th, 2004, 08:02 PM
It is possible that the energy from the dart did not do much damage because of the strength of the materials used to build the walls of the "gate room." Remember, this is the Ancients' most important city, and it would make sense that they would reinforce the room around the gate.

Tannis
July 18th, 2004, 08:05 PM
I've heard a lot of people say that the Wraith could not be the Ancient's enemy one of the reasons being that the Wraith dart ships don't do that much damage and are easily taken out by the Puddle jumper. The darts weapons might suck but maybe the Wraith's mothership or ships have much more powerful weapons. Also, I think that when they "seeded" the Pegasus galaxy, not all the new humans were as advanced as them. Also as far as we know, the Ancients might not have had any motherships, Atlantis could have been their only powerbase, thats why it could have survived. Well, i'm new and that's just my theory.
That would be reasonable given the circumstances. A race that built stargates everywhere to form communication and travel routes would probably not have big spaceships as we would think of doing. After all, why build a ship to go accross the galaxy when you can just dial up an address and get there immediately. This theory also is feasible if you think about the only ships we have seen in evidence so far i.e. Puddle Jumpers. Those ships are small and obviously designed to use stargates as a primary mode of travel, but provide some space faring ability. It might even be that until they encountered the Wraith the Ancients might not have HAD any spacefaring capability anymore and that the puddle jumpers were created in response to the wraith threat so that the ancients could gather intelligence and such about the Wraith without alerting them to their presence.

Some interesting theories being put up here, will be intersting to see which ones pan out as the series progresses

EYU86
July 18th, 2004, 08:11 PM
That would be reasonable given the circumstances. A race that built stargates everywhere to form communication and travel routes would probably not have big spaceships as we would think of doing. After all, why build a ship to go accross the galaxy when you can just dial up an address and get there immediately. This theory also is feasible if you think about the only ships we have seen in evidence so far i.e. Puddle Jumpers. Those ships are small and obviously designed to use stargates as a primary mode of travel, but provide some space faring ability. It might even be that until they encountered the Wraith the Ancients might not have HAD any spacefaring capability anymore and that the puddle jumpers were created in response to the wraith threat so that the ancients could gather intelligence and such about the Wraith without alerting them to their presence.

Some interesting theories being put up here, will be intersting to see which ones pan out as the series progresses
From the beginning of SGA we see that Puddle-Jumpers existed before they went to the Pegasus galaxy and encountered the Wraith.

Torley
July 18th, 2004, 11:29 PM
Wouldn't it be weird if there was a Stargate technology that could send itself through the event horizon? Seems a bit improbable, but with that Ancient tech, you never know. It'd suck itself through to the next location where it was needed... or at least an easy-to-asssemble "Build Your Own Stargate Kit". As has been shown in a certain old episode, clearly Ancients have *that* knowledge as well :)

Janus
July 19th, 2004, 01:04 AM
In the Stargate universe it would seem logical even to propose that the Ancients were what was responsible for Cro-magan man disappearing in favor of Homo-sapiens 50,000 or so years ago. Just a thought :)

You never know, maybe the Cro-magan were just moved and not killed.
This is Sci-Fi, and the Neaderthalers could still be out there.

Tannis
July 19th, 2004, 04:39 AM
From the beginning of SGA we see that Puddle-Jumpers existed before they went to the Pegasus galaxy and encountered the Wraith.
Ah yes, I forgot about that quick scene on the front of the episode. So they had their mode of transportation already decided when they moved to Pegasus.

aAnubiSs
July 19th, 2004, 04:41 AM
Shouldn't the Puddle Jumper be hyperspace capable? Seeing that SGC has F-302s.

Cause that would mean that the scene where Darts were guarding the gate would be useless :)

VirtualCLD
July 19th, 2004, 05:07 AM
But are the F-302s indeed hyperspace capable? That's never been made clear. We knew they could create an unstable window, but they never mentioned if they fixed it. The X-303 was also unstable untill the Asgards fixed it and since then, that's the only ship we've seen make successful HS jumps. I'm still confused on this matter.

Sorry to be off topic... umm... I still believe the Wraiths were the dark race that Ancient hollo was talking about.

aAnubiSs
July 19th, 2004, 05:11 AM
If we can get an unstable window I'm sure the Ancients can get a stable one. The Puddle Jumper is also bigger then a F-302. And the Ancients doesn't have to use Naquadriah.

puddlejumper747
July 19th, 2004, 07:00 AM
I would assume they could identify the difference. It's my assumption that the Ancients seed and raise a less-evolved form of humans, the second evolution of their form. It makes sense to me that a race so advanced would do that, somewhat akin to playing god. It's possible that before ascention, they believed it was their duty. Gardeners of their galaxy.

Dave
I don't really think that the Ancients were trying to "play God" by seeding the galaxy. They were simply planting new civilizations in a noble attempt to spread humanity. And we don't know that they planted "less evolved" humans, just that the humans probably didn't have the ancient-technology genes, and were expected to develop their own civilization without Ancient assistance.

puddlejumper747
July 19th, 2004, 07:09 AM
Shouldn't the Puddle Jumper be hyperspace capable? Seeing that SGC has F-302s.

Cause that would mean that the scene where Darts were guarding the gate would be useless :)
Why do you think that they should be hyperspace capable?
I think the Ancients must have had hyperspace technology, or they could have never moved Atlantis the incredible distance between galaxies, but I don't see it as being very probable for the puddle jumpers, considering the Ancients probably thought that their Stargate technology would be sufficient. However, it could always just be there as a back-up system in case Stargate travel was impossible, so don't give up hope just yet...

EYU86
July 19th, 2004, 07:56 AM
I'm puttin money on these ZPM's being the only ones in existance.
Nope, there are ZPM's on the secret planets where the Stargates are manufactured. Shoot, there are ZPM's on the secret planet where ZPM's are manufactured

aAnubiSs
July 19th, 2004, 08:04 AM
I think they built the gates on Atlantis.

aAnubiSs
July 19th, 2004, 08:05 AM
Does one use on or in when talking about Atlantis? Since it's a flying city, or a very big spaceship.

EYU86
July 19th, 2004, 08:35 AM
I say "in"

aAnubiSs
July 19th, 2004, 08:38 AM
Maybe Atlantis should be considered a small planet? hence "on". I dunno

EYU86
July 19th, 2004, 08:41 AM
But Atlantis is on the planet...
And I think Atlantis is mostly interior only since it did travel through space

aAnubiSs
July 19th, 2004, 08:45 AM
Well their shield kept the oxygen in. And they probably know how to convert CO2->O2

Tok'Ra Hostess
July 19th, 2004, 02:14 PM
I would think that a race that rivals the Ancients in technology and evolution would be incontestable to a race as unevolved as 21st century humans. If this battle for the galaxy indeed occurred million of years ago, it should be safe to assume that the Wraith would have progressed even futher. I can't believe they are content to feed off humans for this amount of time without advancing their civilization. After all, they couldn't have defeated the ancients by being a stagnant race of simple predators.

Dave

Yes, but consider the sucess the Tau'ri of Earth have had against the more technologically advanced Goa'uld. Also, the Asgard have experienced first hand that technology alone won't win wars; savvy is required, something the fresh young species has in spades.

The Ancients, having never dealt with species as or more advanced than themselves, were probably ill-equipped to fight the rapacious Wraith. Like the Tau'ri, I suspect(hope)that the new enemy will be cunning and inventive, though obviously not quite inventive enough to beat the new wolflings. :)