PDA

View Full Version : Where the Pegasus Galaxy is...



diskiller
July 18th, 2004, 05:16 AM
Really. When they said that pegasus was in the 'local group' i thought it would be real.

Yes, its real. The local group is, funnily enough ;), a little local group of galaxies that are relatively close to each other and are gravitationally bound in the Universe.

The MilkyWay, and the Andromeda Galaxy are in the local group among others, and infact, the Milkyway and Andromeda are heading straight for each other and will collide (well, more like pass straight through each other). Okay, i'm an astronomy geek, it shows. Sorry ;)

This, of course, contradicts a few things. Apparently the Pegasus Galaxy is really really far away, much further than Ida, and that is why a ZPM was required to generate all the extra power to go to Pegasus, while a liquid naqueda generator was all that was required to go to Ida to contact the Asguard.

But it looks like the Asguard galaxy is further. Pegasus is just a dwarf galaxy orbiting Andromeda, which is not very far away at all as galaxies go! Its one of the closest!

I also liked in the Fifth Race (i recently rewatched it) when they dialed the 8 chevron address for the first time... and how they were all looking at each other going "what the hell?"... the 8th chevron locked, and there was actually a several second pause before the wormhole opened... it gave the feeling that the stargate really did open to a place very very far way, it even took 2 to 3x as long for the wormhole to open after locking the last chevron.

Yet, in Atlantis, when the SGC dialed the 8 chevron atlantis address, the wormhole opened rather quickly... it felt like the same length of time it always took.

Also when the animation appeared, it showed jack going through the wormhole animation for a long long time... and it was alot shorter for the atlantis one.

It really felt like they weren't dialing an address far away when they dialed Atlantis in Pegasus, yet when they dialed (Othalla?) in the Ida Galaxy, it felt like it was **ALOT** further.

Yet, that pathetic little liquid naqueda generator they built was all they needed. And they did it again, in that alternate reality episode (forget the name). Why can't they just make another one to call up Atlantis again? Its not even mentioned and rejected... they just say "this is a one way shot and we have no other choice". Why?????????????

VirtualCLD
July 18th, 2004, 06:37 AM
I could be wrong, but as I recall, they only recharged the pathetic little naquada generator, not re-build it. I don't think they know how to rebuild it. In addition (possible spoilers)




They recharged it for one of the AU episodes where tehy gave it to themselves in an AU to contact the Asgard and save them from the Goa'uld. This means they no longer have the naquada ZPM and since they don't know how to rebuild it AND O'Neill no longer has the ancient knowledge, they can't make another one.

To try and anticipate further questions, O'Neill probably couldn't make another naquada ZPM for the Ancient outpost weapn because it was much easier to interface a "McGyverred" naquada ZPM, made from our tech with our tech, than it would have been to Ancients tech in the outpost. Remember, O'Neill interfaced the device with our tech circuit breakers. It may not have interfaced as easily to the control chair in the Ancient outpost.

Question for diskiller, is their a real life Ida galaxy and is it indeed much further away than Pegasus?

terraatlantus
September 19th, 2004, 11:01 PM
where is the kaleam galaxy mentioned in the movie

cjp_24
September 20th, 2004, 03:53 AM
Q About ZPM's?!

Answer me this, I may of missed it but I doubt it. The ZPM. if it gets it energy form subspace. Then how come it runs out of charge. Subspace as we all know if meant to be a super realm of its own which I guess is as big as the universe anyway. So how comes it runs out of power? does the appature that opens a hole into subspace get smaller the more power it uses until the hole is closed.

Also, is a ZPM more powerful (when fully charged) than a sun!?

Cliff :o

Ancient 1
September 20th, 2004, 09:06 AM
Q About ZPM's?!

Answer me this, I may of missed it but I doubt it. The ZPM. if it gets it energy form subspace. Then how come it runs out of charge. Subspace as we all know if meant to be a super realm of its own which I guess is as big as the universe anyway. So how comes it runs out of power? does the appature that opens a hole into subspace get smaller the more power it uses until the hole is closed.

Also, is a ZPM more powerful (when fully charged) than a sun!?

Cliff :o
I would say a sun holds more energy, or at least most do because they tend to burn for billions of years while the ZPM only for a couple million.

SP90
January 10th, 2005, 06:09 PM
I would say a sun holds more energy, or at least most do because they tend to burn for billions of years while the ZPM only for a couple million.

An exploding ZPM is still powerful enough to destroy the solar system just like when the sun goes supernova. ;)

the_fours
January 11th, 2005, 01:40 AM
Q About ZPM's?!

Answer me this, I may of missed it but I doubt it. The ZPM. if it gets it energy form subspace. Then how come it runs out of charge. Subspace as we all know if meant to be a super realm of its own which I guess is as big as the universe anyway. So how comes it runs out of power? does the appature that opens a hole into subspace get smaller the more power it uses until the hole is closed.

Also, is a ZPM more powerful (when fully charged) than a sun!?

Cliff :o


I think your theory might make sence if the zpm is producing so much power it could have a defect that the anciants couldnt eliminate and so there for the more energy you draw from the zpm the weaker it becomes and the less able it is to maintain its hold in subspace.

Its just a guess!!!

IndianaJones00
January 11th, 2005, 01:57 AM
where is the kaleam galaxy mentioned in the movie
Just after they activate the gate for the first time and send the MALP through you see the course plotter going across a star chart and they say its locked on to some point in the kaleam galaxy on the other side of the known universe.

I guess when they decided to make the series they chose to forget this fact.

Qtyled
January 11th, 2005, 03:12 AM
This, of course, contradicts a few things. Apparently the Pegasus Galaxy is really really far away, much further than Ida, and that is why a ZPM was required to generate all the extra power to go to Pegasus, while a liquid naqueda generator was all that was required to go to Ida to contact the Asguard.


But Ida is the Asguards name for the galaxy, it may well be known as something else to us.


where is the kaleam galaxy mentioned in the movie

I think this galaxy was just made up. I just consider the person who said this to be just plain wrong and everyone else was so stunned that they didn't correct him.

Major Tyler
January 11th, 2005, 05:59 AM
The Pegasus Galaxy is a dwarf galaxy orbiting Andromeda. It is still in the Local Group.

AsgardCarnage
January 11th, 2005, 06:19 AM
The one shot was because the zpm was almost dead and only had enough power to reach the glaxy once.

there are a few thories as to why ZPM's run out. 1) the zpm holds a bubble of subspace like a battery holds a charge, it will work untill the bubble runs out.
2) (i like this one) the ZPM acts like a light bulb, there is subspace (the electrisity from the wall) and the physical zpm crystal thing (the filiment inside the light bulb) the electricty will last for ever but eventully the physical element will wearout.

who said the home made naquada zpm was any less powerful? maybe it might be able to do the same thing just for a very short time before it breaks. sine we dont know if the one jack built was doing some funky subspace thing like the zpms (using the power of naq to access the greater power of subspace, like detonating an H-bomb with an A-bomb) we will never know

Ohper
January 11th, 2005, 11:11 AM
It wasn't a "Naquadah ZPM". It was nothing like a ZPM in any way other than it generated a huge amount of energy. It was a power source that used liquid naquadah from a staff weapon.

The staff weapons can be used for thousands of years before they run out of energy, because the liquid naquadah powers them. O'Neill rigged up a little something so that the energy within the liquid naquadah could be used all at once, instead of slowly over thousands of years.

</one man's opinion>

Hatcheter
January 11th, 2005, 12:38 PM
Here's a little image of the Pegasus galaxy I made, using the progam Deep Space Explorer from Starry Night software.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v38/Hatcheter/viewfrompegasus.jpg

The Milky Way galaxy is the large one at the bottom, about three million light years away. Andromeda is seen edge on in the upper left, about 1.6 mly away, and Triangulum is in the upper right, approx. 1.7 mly away (more or less, this is a fairly simple program).

The Pegasus galaxy itself is less than five thousand light years across, a tiny fraction of the size of the Milky way.

Wass
January 11th, 2005, 12:42 PM
Thanks for the explaination and the pic great job

aschen
January 11th, 2005, 12:51 PM
That definetely is a great pic, Hatcheter!

I feel kinda...dumb putting this up, but...

Real Pegasus:
http://mats.gmd.de/~zlender/astro/7479_3007.jpg

aeroe
January 11th, 2005, 01:42 PM
My thoughts again on this:

I feel the writers are giving fictional properties to a galaxy that exists in the real universe. There's been two comments on the distance of the galaxy; Jackson mentioned the local group, McKay mentioned a distance of 300 million lightyears. I also believe that Pegasus will be considered a greater distance from home compared to Ida. It will explain why a staff weapon's energy source can power the gate to Ida, but a ZPM is needed for Atlantis.

Assume we're talking the same galaxy...
Pegasus is a very old, and very small dwarf galaxy, you wonder why the Ancients just didn't head to Andromeda, a spiral galaxy like our own. (Other than the galaxy being the title of another show.) Heh... I'm stubborn.

Major Tyler
January 11th, 2005, 01:55 PM
McKay mentioned a distance of 300 million lightyears.I think McKay was just being dramatic. :)
I also believe that Pegasus will be considered a greater distance from home compared to Ida. It will explain why a staff weapon's energy source can power the gate to Ida, but a ZPM is needed for Atlantis.We don't know enough about the "O'Neill Device" to determine whether on not it could have connected to a Pegasus gate. We have to assume they didn't try because the device is no longer viable.
Pegasus is a very old, and very small dwarf galaxy, you wonder why the Ancients just didn't head to Andromeda, a spiral galaxy like our own.Maybe they wanted a little galaxy to themselves. You know, like a little place out in the country-side, away from the hussle-and-bustle of those full-sized galaxies. :P

Giantevilhead
January 11th, 2005, 03:24 PM
ZPMs are not powered by subspace, they're powered by zero point energy, that's why it's called a zero point module. Zero point energy is supposedly limitless because it draws upon the vibrational energy present in particles even at absolute zero. The most logical reason as to how the ZPM ran out of energy is that the device itself has broken down over time and is no longer able to make use of the ZPE.

Now about why they were able to dial to Ida with a naquadah generator but needed a ZPM to dial to Pegasus. I remember an episode where someone said that a wormhole can draw energy from either gates to power itself so maybe the wormhole generated by the naquadah generator drew its energy from the Asgard side while the wormhole to Pegasus has to draw all its energy from earth's side.

Thor's Pal
January 11th, 2005, 03:49 PM
Here's a differnt thought on the differences between 5th Race and Alantis

compatability.

In Alantis, they were using achient tech to provide extra power to the Stargate, which does have some achient tech intergrated into it. It is possible that there might have been some signal that the gate sent (like a ping) and the ZPM was able to return it, which told the gate that there won't be any problem in dialing this long distance call, and it went right through like it was a local call. (Or like making a long distance call from your house, the swichboard "knows" you'll pay for the call.)

So in the 5th Race when we had a home made ZPM, there was no ping returned, so the gate made sure that it would be a valid call. (Like making a collect phone call, you're allowed to talk after the receiving party has agreed to accept the charges.)

dpgiffin
January 11th, 2005, 04:27 PM
Here's a differnt thought on the differences between 5th Race and Alantis

compatability.

In Alantis, they were using achient tech to provide extra power to the Stargate, which does have some achient tech intergrated into it. It is possible that there might have been some signal that the gate sent (like a ping) and the ZPM was able to return it, which told the gate that there won't be any problem in dialing this long distance call, and it went right through like it was a local call. (Or like making a long distance call from your house, the swichboard "knows" you'll pay for the call.)

So in the 5th Race when we had a home made ZPM, there was no ping returned, so the gate made sure that it would be a valid call. (Like making a collect phone call, you're allowed to talk

Weird, i had a very similar idea.

However, mine is that the power submitted by the zpm and the naquadah module are different, and that the newer atlantean gate only can be powered that distance with a zpm, and the ida gate can take different power types

Nexus
January 11th, 2005, 04:33 PM
ZPMs are not powered by subspace, they're powered by zero point energy, that's why it's called a zero point module. Zero point energy is supposedly limitless because it draws upon the vibrational energy present in particles even at absolute zero. The most logical reason as to how the ZPM ran out of energy is that the device itself has broken down over time and is no longer able to make use of the ZPE.

.


errrrmmmm actually they are powered by sub space..its been said in the program!!!! i remember it well !!!!
Nexus

Thor's Pal
January 11th, 2005, 05:16 PM
Weird, i had a very similar idea.

However, mine is that the power submitted by the zpm and the naquadah module are different, and that the newer atlantean gate only can be powered that distance with a zpm, and the ida gate can take different power types

Good thought, but I don't see that being the case- but that's only because of the amound of "converting" the power would go though between the zpm and teh SGC gate. The zpm has to sit a holder which has a positive and a ground, then its hooked to the breakers, which sends the power to the clamps on the gate and so on. the wires between the breaker and gate clamp would be typical earth wireing, which would be ac. I seriously doubt that the achient tech would use electricity in a typical AC/DC fasion. So in converting the zpm output to AC, then AC->what ever the gate uses, I would think that would obscure what the power type is.

Of cource, that also kind of shoots a few holes into my own theory too, doesn't it? Oh well :) (the downside to attending an engineering univeristy)

Giantevilhead
January 11th, 2005, 07:20 PM
errrrmmmm actually they are powered by sub space..its been said in the program!!!! i remember it well !!!!
Nexus

Well then it's a goof on the part of the show. Why the heck would they call it a zero point module if it doesn't use zero point energy?

Positively Kanyon
January 11th, 2005, 07:43 PM
errrrmmmm actually they are powered by sub space..its been said in the program!!!! i remember it well !!!!
Nexus

Um... No, McKay said the device derives zero point energy from a field of subspace... Go watch Rising again, it's right there.

Jarnin
January 12th, 2005, 08:17 PM
The ZPM draws its power from a self contained region of subspace, however vacuum energy (AKA zero point energy) would also be generated in subspace, so it's not a glich.
The ZPM has a compactified subspace dimension inside the device. The vacuum energy that is generated by that subspace dimension is what charges the ZPM. When the subspace region becomes entropic, it no longer produces power, which means the ZPM is depleted, or will be once the power it's charged with is used.

As for Pegasus, there are many galaxies with that name. The one they're talking about in the show, is the Pegasus Dwarf Spheroidal Galaxy (also known as Pegasus II, KKH 99, Peg dSph, or Andromeda VI).
The idea is that this galaxy orbits so far away from Andromeda that it swings very close to the Milky Way.
If the ancients were planning on heading to Andromeda, they would have likely stopped by this galaxy since it'd be on the way.

Hatcheter
January 13th, 2005, 12:37 AM
Maybe they wanted a little galaxy to themselves. You know, like a little place out in the country-side, away from the hussle-and-bustle of those full-sized galaxies. :P

Too bad the neighbors turned out to be so terrible. :D

Giantevilhead
January 13th, 2005, 02:06 PM
Subspace doesn't exist, it's just something Star Trek made up to help with their technobabble.

aAnubiSs
January 13th, 2005, 02:39 PM
Subspace doesn't exist, it's just something Star Trek made up to help with their technobabble.Read up on your quantum physics.

Giantevilhead
January 13th, 2005, 09:16 PM
Subspace exists, it's a subset of a set with certain properties but the type of subspace they talk about on Star Trek and Stargate does not exist. In fact, subspace as described in Star Trek and Stargate is more like hyperspace, which is a theoretical entity used to explain Einstein-Rosen bridge.

555GATE
February 26th, 2006, 11:37 AM
Assume we're talking the same galaxy...
Pegasus is a very old, and very small dwarf galaxy, you wonder why the Ancients just didn't head to Andromeda, a spiral galaxy like our own. (Other than the galaxy being the title of another show.) Heh... I'm stubborn.

Hmm, good point. Why wouldn't the ancients choose to explore the closest galaxies to their home galaxy? The only reason I'd see to explore galaxies far away is to see if the structure of the universe is different in different parts of it.

Krendoshazin
February 27th, 2006, 01:39 AM
A ZPM is capable of generating immense amounts of energy by utilizing zero point energy which derives from a phenomenon known as the quantum foam (subatomic wormholes opening and closing constantly in and out of subspace). A ZPM contains an artificially created region of spacetime from which this power is drawn. Since this process is thermodynamically irreversible, every ZPM (if used) will eventually reach maximum entropy, at which point it is depleted and can no longer provide power.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZPM

Quakerbone
March 2nd, 2006, 05:15 PM
where is the kaleam galaxy mentioned in the movie

You never heard "Kaleam galaxy", the Abydos gate has the same symbols as Earth, and Jack's last name is spelled with two L's.

This is a movie magic alteration. A number of critical technical issues were changed with the series, including the distance of Abydos, the gate symbols, and a few movie magics things about everyone on another planet speaking perfect English, when it took the movie-Jackson a decade's worth of lingual studies and nothing short of genius to speak ancient Egyptian.

freyr's mother
March 2nd, 2006, 05:21 PM
Here's a fun fact: Our Local Galactic Group is comprised of about 36 galaxies.

newtrekker
March 2nd, 2006, 10:37 PM
Here's a fun fact: Our Local Galactic Group is comprised of about 36 galaxies.

That's alot of galaxies. No wonder why the Ancients didn't leave the local group.

Replicator Fifth
February 9th, 2010, 10:02 PM
Yes, its real. The local group is, funnily enough ;), a little local group of galaxies that are relatively close to each other and are gravitationally bound in the Universe.

The MilkyWay, and the Andromeda Galaxy are in the local group among others, and infact, the Milkyway and Andromeda are heading straight for each other and will collide (well, more like pass straight through each other). Okay, i'm an astronomy geek, it shows. Sorry ;)

This, of course, contradicts a few things. Apparently the Pegasus Galaxy is really really far away, much further than Ida, and that is why a ZPM was required to generate all the extra power to go to Pegasus, while a liquid naqueda generator was all that was required to go to Ida to contact the Asguard.

But it looks like the Asguard galaxy is further. Pegasus is just a dwarf galaxy orbiting Andromeda, which is not very far away at all as galaxies go! Its one of the closest!

I also liked in the Fifth Race (i recently rewatched it) when they dialed the 8 chevron address for the first time... and how they were all looking at each other going &quot;what the hell?&quot;... the 8th chevron locked, and there was actually a several second pause before the wormhole opened... it gave the feeling that the stargate really did open to a place very very far way, it even took 2 to 3x as long for the wormhole to open after locking the last chevron.

Yet, in Atlantis, when the SGC dialed the 8 chevron atlantis address, the wormhole opened rather quickly... it felt like the same length of time it always took.

Also when the animation appeared, it showed jack going through the wormhole animation for a long long time... and it was alot shorter for the atlantis one.

It really felt like they weren't dialing an address far away when they dialed Atlantis in Pegasus, yet when they dialed (Othalla?) in the Ida Galaxy, it felt like it was **ALOT** further.

Yet, that pathetic little liquid naqueda generator they built was all they needed. And they did it again, in that alternate reality episode (forget the name). Why can't they just make another one to call up Atlantis again? Its not even mentioned and rejected... they just say &quot;this is a one way shot and we have no other choice&quot;. Why?????????????

funny, I was googling pictures of the real Pegasis Galaxy and came across this. yes the contradictions are apparent to any science geek... but, don't let it bother you too much, it was a fun show.

thekillman
February 13th, 2010, 11:28 AM
one asgard galaxy was 4 million lightyears away *enemies*

kymeric
February 13th, 2010, 12:27 PM
My thoughts again on this:

I feel the writers are giving fictional properties to a galaxy that exists in the real universe. There's been two comments on the distance of the galaxy; Jackson mentioned the local group, McKay mentioned a distance of 300 million lightyears. I also believe that Pegasus will be considered a greater distance from home compared to Ida. It will explain why a staff weapon's energy source can power the gate to Ida, but a ZPM is needed for Atlantis.

Assume we're talking the same galaxy...
Pegasus is a very old, and very small dwarf galaxy, you wonder why the Ancients just didn't head to Andromeda, a spiral galaxy like our own. (Other than the galaxy being the title of another show.) Heh... I'm stubborn.

I bet they did and its inhabited with humans and its own gate network and problems :D

Infinite-Possibilities
February 14th, 2010, 06:25 AM
McKay mentioned the Pegasus Galaxy as being 3 hundred million light-years distant, but I think that was just an error on his part. Occasionally characters will misspeak. The Pegasus galaxies was mentioned as 3 million light-years distant every other time. And I think that if it was 300,000,000 Light-years away it would not longer be in the Local Group, which he already said it is.

lordofseas
February 14th, 2010, 04:32 PM
McKay mentioned the Pegasus Galaxy as being 3 hundred million light-years distant, but I think that was just an error on his part. Occasionally characters will misspeak. The Pegasus galaxies was mentioned as 3 million light-years distant every other time. And I think that if it was 300,000,000 Light-years away it would not longer be in the Local Group, which he already said it is.

But..but..but..McKay is ALWAYS right! :(

thekillman
February 24th, 2010, 09:23 AM
where did he say THAT?

Aer'ki
March 3rd, 2010, 02:16 PM
I looked into this before, and the 'Pegasus' in reality can't be the 'Pegasus' in stargate. The gate bridge and visuals from the series make them very close together.

Best candidate is the Small Magellanic Cloud...and 'Pegasus' is the Ancient name for the galaxy, not ours.

Freekzilla
March 10th, 2010, 12:25 PM
I think you guys are forgetting about one thing.

When Jack hooked up the Naquada thingy to power the stargate to get to the Ida galaxy and to the Asgard, he hooked it up ALONG WITH the power being supplied by the normal gate operations. So, that little generator wasn't supplying the entire amount of power, it just gave it the big boost it needed.

Think of it this way, you can have 2 batteries with the same total amount of power, one releases the energy slowly over time, and the other releases it more or less all at once. I suspect that the liquid naquada itself was designed to release it slowly, but the device Jack made adapted it so it would release all at once. And in the process, that probably burned out a few of the components of that device. Hense the reason they couldn't get it to work again.

Another thing is, we know from McKay that once a gate is connected, it can draw power from the gate on the other side. It is reasonable to assume Jack knew that the asgard gate would be able to supply any extra power once it was connected, therefore he only needed to get the connection going. The atlantis gate on the other hand, didn't have the power reserves to perform this function. Therefore, a ZPM was needed to supply ALL of the power.

strikeviperMKII
September 21st, 2010, 06:44 PM
I looked into this before, and the 'Pegasus' in reality can't be the 'Pegasus' in stargate. The gate bridge and visuals from the series make them very close together.

Best candidate is the Small Magellanic Cloud...and 'Pegasus' is the Ancient name for the galaxy, not ours.

I doubt very much that the image in that episode was even close be being to scale, because if it were, the 'gate shown would be larger than our entire solar system...a lot larger. But they do show Pegasus to be a spiral galaxy, just like the Milky Way, so it can't be the SMC or the actual Pegasus galaxy, which is irregular.

strikeviperMKII
September 21st, 2010, 06:54 PM
Q About ZPM's?!

Answer me this, I may of missed it but I doubt it. The ZPM. if it gets it energy form subspace. Then how come it runs out of charge. Subspace as we all know if meant to be a super realm of its own which I guess is as big as the universe anyway. So how comes it runs out of power? does the appature that opens a hole into subspace get smaller the more power it uses until the hole is closed.

Also, is a ZPM more powerful (when fully charged) than a sun!?

Cliff :o

You can take a hint from the first episode of Atlantis. McKay says '...and the third is approaching maximum entropy.' Also, he says in a later episode that a ZPM was like 'a universe in a bottle'. To me that says that the ZPM's only have a certain amount of energy in them to begin with. How much is probably determined by how they are made, but once you use up that energy, there's no way to get it back. Yes, ZPM's draw energy from subspace, but only the subspace within its own little universe. If you try to draw energy from the subspace in our universe, as explained in the series, bad things happen.

Ancientechexpert
August 24th, 2011, 04:29 PM
I believe it was once said that the ZPM draws power from an isolated (key word being "isolated") section of sub-space (either it creates that section, or it isolates an already existing section, I'm not sure). I have a theory about why they isolate the section it draws power from. My theory is that because there are many forms of subspace (the Stargate, and the various dimensions of hyperspace used by the many FTL-capable races) that interact, like the Atero device disrupts Wraith hyperspace, but also destroys stargates, the Ancients were afraid that drawing power from an unlimited subspacial dimension could have dangerous side effects. That's my theory.

hr00071
April 16th, 2012, 09:02 PM
An exploding ZPM is still powerful enough to destroy the solar system just like when the sun goes supernova. ;)

I would like to clear the common misconception that exploding a ZPM would destroy a solar system. The explosion of Project Arcturus destroyed a solar system and not the explosion of ZPM.

It should be noted that for imploding the super heavy mass of Replicators on their planet, Dr Mckay (or may be FRAN) came up with a plan of overloading 6 ZPM's symmetrically. If an explosion of a single ZPM would destroy a solar system then there is no point blowing up 6.