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GateWorld
January 2nd, 2006, 07:55 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/217.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px solid black" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888">GALACTICA SEASON TWO</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">THE CAPTAIN'S HAND</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 217</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
Tension runs high between Lee and Kara and the new commander of the Pegasus when a Raptor scouting party goes missing. The arrival of a pregnant girl seeking refuge on Galactica erupts into political chaos for President Roslin.

<FONT SIZE=1><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Denanthor
February 17th, 2006, 07:55 PM
This was my favoirt episode by far this season. Maybe its because ever since the Pegasus was introduced I loved it.
Commander Lee Adama kind of has a nice riing to it dont ya think lol. That fight sceen was one of my favorite

Any Ideas if Lee will die lol [kidding]

CKO
February 17th, 2006, 08:03 PM
very intersting.... although the first few minutes before the opening credits were enough to cause some people enough gag... it was an okay ep but really not one that I'm really fond of..

edit: i didnt catch my own typo til now.

tony
February 17th, 2006, 08:04 PM
I think that was seriously amazing... my fav episode EVER. We really learned alot about how Battle Stars engage capital ships too it was nice.

kharn the betrayer
February 17th, 2006, 08:05 PM
outside of the lee/Dee scene at the beggining and the fact Lee got promoted TWO times in one episode I realy did like this episode

It was Nice to See Cheif/Cally/Six and Baltar again who just went poof and vanished for a while

and I realy like the scene when Baltar announces he is going to run for president and Six in the background claping


this episode had some great CGI shots as well.. oh and next weeks episode looks GREAT

titans
February 17th, 2006, 08:06 PM
AWSOME EPISODE!! The "Beast" rules!! Takes on THREE Basestars and holds her own??? Awsome!

Apollo as commander??? He's dead!

Being Commander of Pegasus is like bein a Star Trek Red Shirt.

tony
February 17th, 2006, 08:06 PM
I honestly thought it was the best episode since the mini series... we got to seriously see how battle stars take on Capital ships in close combat and man 2-3 direct hits from nukes and that ship was still fighting strong!

tucker9477
February 17th, 2006, 08:07 PM
well, it certainly was an intense episode. of course, aside from the action, there was the political intrigue as Baltar makes his big play. it's going to be a big build up again to the season finale.

Vienna_Smiles
February 17th, 2006, 08:07 PM
Despite the nauseating beginning, this episode was top notch!! Interesting plot twist with the coming elections.

It certainly upped the angst between Lee and Kara.

kharn the betrayer
February 17th, 2006, 08:08 PM
Pasted from anouther thread as when I wrote this the topic wasnt up yet and added some stuff

outside of the lee/Dee scene at the beggining and the fact Lee got promoted TWO times in one episode(WTF fastest promotions EVER) I realy did like this episode

It was Nice to See Cheif/Cally/Six and Baltar again who just went poof and vanished for a while

and I realy like the scene when Baltar announces he is going to run for president and Six in the background clapping that was just great


this episode had some awsome CGI shots as well.. oh and next weeks episode looks fantastic


AWSOME EPISODE!! The "Beast" rules!! Takes on THREE Basestars and holds her own??? Awsome! and damages one so much in the process forcing it to pull back that was down right cool

Vienna_Smiles
February 17th, 2006, 08:09 PM
AWSOME EPISODE!! The "Beast" rules!! Takes on THREE Basestars and holds her own??? Awsome!

Apollo as commander??? He's dead!

Being Commander of Pegasus is like bein a Star Trek Red Shirt.



Titans,

I agree, not sure how long Lee will keep command of the Pegasus.

CKO
February 17th, 2006, 08:10 PM
very good CGI, and great father/son interaction too

titans
February 17th, 2006, 08:11 PM
did anyone else find it odd that "The Beast"can take 3 or so nuke hits and not lose a single crew member? Number before the battle 49,584, after the battle, 49,579....four Raptor Pilots and one Red Shir...uhh I mean Pegasus Commander.


Hmmm...

titans
February 17th, 2006, 08:12 PM
Titans,

I agree, not sure how long Lee will keep command of the Pegasus.

His uniform when it comes back from the laundry will accidently be dyed red.

Smashing Young Man
February 17th, 2006, 08:18 PM
The abortion angle was interesting - and such an obvious thing considering the fleet's circumstances that I'm surprised the subject hasn't been broached sooner. Considering how dire things are, I believe abortion should certainly be criminal in this fictional situation.

And it's good to finally see some more big guns rock 'em sock 'em between the fleet and the Cylons. Been long overdue.

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
February 17th, 2006, 08:19 PM
Interesting ep. I give it a ***.

I want someone to command the Pegasus for 3+ episodes, 3 commanders in like 7 episodes, that's kind of pathetic.

saxamoophone
February 17th, 2006, 08:24 PM
Hahahaha,

I'm thinking Pegasus might go KABOOOM before the season's end :-p

Of course Lee won't be on it at the time!

titans
February 17th, 2006, 08:27 PM
Hahahaha,

I'm thinking Pegasus might go KABOOOM before the season's end :-p

Of course Lee won't be on it at the time!

bite your tounge! "The Beast" is here to stay! Nothing can stop her. Not Cylon Nukes, not a revolving door at her Commanders position...NOTHING!!

LONG LIVE THE BEAST!!!!!!

Fahtdaddie
February 17th, 2006, 08:30 PM
Good episode. The promotion of Apollo to Commander caught me off guard - didn't see it coming. I loved the battle scenes. Just enough to get a feel for it, but also not enough to put the show over budget.

One thing though: The parallel of the fleet's political situations (the abortion issue, the "we're losing our rights and becoming ike the Cylons/terrorists" stuff) soured me on the writing of this episode. The struggle for political power in the fleet could have taken a different and much more intelligent path rather than taking a rehashed present day pro- or anti- choice/Iraq War rhetoric story line. I understand why it was written like it was, but I just want to be entertained.

Note to Ronald Moore: You are SO much more intelligent than the typical Hollywood crowd. You don't need to get into the present day "Republican vs. Democrat" Patriot Act debate with this series. I am probably like a lot of the people watching the show. I need an escape from the political climate of the day. Battlestar Galactica provided that for me - until tonight.

PLEASE don't let me have to watch the news at 6 and then have to hear it all again at 10:00.

Just a thought!

The Shadow
February 17th, 2006, 08:58 PM
This is my favorite episode by far out of every single BSG ep EVER!!!!!!

The promotion came SO UNEXPECTED!!!!!!!! I saw the promo pictures and thought that the picture with Lee and Ad. Adama was just Adama promoting Lee to Major, NEVER THOUGHT COMMANDER!!!!!:jack_new_anime05:

Commander Adama.....has a nice ring to it......do hope that he will break the curse......kinda like Harry Potter....you know... like when the Defense of the Dark Arts teachers always leave or die after one year. Maybe that's why Adama decided to put Lee in charge, hopefully to break the curse and actually give Pegasus a Commander who will at least survive......hopefully.....counting the number of close calls Lee's had this season......he MIGHT just go next..... that would be a total devestation to the fleet.....Ad. Adama is just going to break down and be in total shock and then we will all die!!!!!(no not really;) )

the fifth man
February 17th, 2006, 09:00 PM
well, it certainly was an intense episode. of course, aside from the action, there was the political intrigue as Baltar makes his big play. it's going to be a big build up again to the season finale.

I certainly agree about the build-up to the season finale. Baltar definitely is becoming darker and darker.

Personally, I'm still having a little bit of a hard time dealing with the fact that Lee went from Captain to Commander in the span of one ep. It boggles the mind.:) But good for him. At least now we know Pegasus will have a steady Commander for while. Lee isn't going anywhere.

titans
February 17th, 2006, 09:00 PM
AWSOME episode! Pegasus kicks Cylon butt!! The revolving door at Pegasus CIC continues, and BALTARS A PIMP!! AWSOME!!!

Paramedic0480
February 17th, 2006, 09:02 PM
Definitly one of the best episodes since the mini series, i thought the hand of god was one of the best of the first season and This definately stood out as the best thusfar of season 2. i was caught offguard about Lee being promoted to Commander of Pegasus, what a great twist though, it'll be nice to hear "This is the commander" again. The producers continue to defy what everyone think is going to happen and puts the unexpectedly unexpected into this episode adn the season. Looks as if 2 battlestars are going to be searching for a home together. All in all a 10/10.

tucker9477
February 17th, 2006, 09:08 PM
well, titans, it seems your ever growing hatred for lee continues. everyone has to have a skill, i suppose... i'm just afraid the latest promotion of the man you love to hate will shave years off your life... keep strong, my i-bro!

Vienna_Smiles
February 17th, 2006, 09:27 PM
Good episode. The promotion of Apollo to Commander caught me off guard - didn't see it coming. I loved the battle scenes. Just enough to get a feel for it, but also not enough to put the show over budget.

One thing though: The parallel of the fleet's political situations (the abortion issue, the "we're losing our rights and becoming ike the Cylons/terrorists" stuff) soured me on the writing of this episode. The struggle for political power in the fleet could have taken a different and much more intelligent path rather than taking a rehashed present day pro- or anti- choice/Iraq War rhetoric story line. I understand why it was written like it was, but I just want to be entertained.

Note to Ronald Moore: You are SO much more intelligent than the typical Hollywood crowd. You don't need to get into the present day "Republican vs. Democrat" Patriot Act debate with this series. I am probably like a lot of the people watching the show. I need an escape from the political climate of the day. Battlestar Galactica provided that for me - until tonight.

PLEASE don't let me have to watch the news at 6 and then have to hear it all again at 10:00.

Just a thought!


I've noticed the political undercurrent running through this series and have laughingly dubbed it "Ron Moore's political moment" of each episode. Beginning with this episode, we are witnessing the tying of religious fundamentalism to the cylons (AKA-modern day terrorists) via the upcoming elections.

somedude
February 17th, 2006, 10:39 PM
How exactly were the Raptor pilots killed? It looked like someone unbuckled them from their seats, then shot them in the head?

Garner was a good guy, just the wrong person for command. Awesome episode!

anotherquestion
February 17th, 2006, 10:46 PM
How exactly were the Raptor pilots killed? It looked like someone unbuckled them from their seats, then shot them in the head?

Garner was a good guy, just the wrong person for command. Awesome episode!
The cracked canopy windows were kind of a clue to me that it was hostile raider fire.

Most raptors are not armed, right? Boomer bugged out in the mini, for example, because she was in a Recon raptor. I think most are used for recon (since they have FTL drives) and search and rescue.

anotherquestion
February 17th, 2006, 11:01 PM
I've noticed the political undercurrent running through this series and have laughingly dubbed it "Ron Moore's political moment" of each episode. Beginning with this episode, we are witnessing the tying of religious fundamentalism to the cylons (AKA-modern day terrorists) via the upcoming elections.
I think there are prominent non-Cylon religious fundamentalists clearly visible among the Colonials, most notably the uncharmingly named Geminese. These were a political core group for Roslyn in her prophetic phase, now they are a volatile element, forcing her to take positions against her personal inclinations.

Roslyn always remains pragmatic and is a compromiser, something offensive to fundamentalists of all stripes.

I personally like the political undertones, they have the RDM twist to them, so they are evocative of current controversies, but with a different spin. The loss of personal rights, in this case, was directly tied to the survival of the human race. The decision was buttressed by science (in Baltar's study), not ideology. The "reactionary" cause was advanced, but no faction achieved all it sought out.

Baltar again does what he does best--betrayal. After clinching the argument for the ban against abortion by his gloomy anti-Malthusian study, he abjures the logical conclusion and instead panders to the faction that would react most vociferously against such a measure. In this sense, he is betraying science itself as well as Roslyn. I don't know why people keep wanting to ally with him, now Zarek gets in line to be shafted like all the others.

somedude
February 17th, 2006, 11:04 PM
The cracked canopy windows were kind of a clue to me that it was hostile raider fire.

Most raptors are not armed, right? Boomer bugged out in the mini, for example, because she was in a Recon raptor. I think most are used for recon (since they have FTL drives) and search and rescue.

I saw the cracked canopies, but the shot looked too 'perfect'. Just two bullets through the windshield, one each into the heads of the pilots?

I think the Raptors are armed, (remember Lee took out the Cylons using the Raptors' front guns in Fragged), but just not optimized for anti-air warfare, or ever intended to mix it up with Raiders.

LoneStar1836
February 17th, 2006, 11:12 PM
I saw the cracked canopies, but the shot looked too 'perfect'. Just two bullets through the windshield, one each into the heads of the pilots?

I think the Raptors are armed, (remember Lee took out the Cylons using the Raptors' front guns in Fragged), but just not optimized for anti-air warfare, or ever intended to mix it up with Raiders.Yeah, that did look a little too perfect but it appeared that some Raiders were laying in wait and strafed them as soon as they jumped in. Raptors aren’t generally armed, but they do have the option of carrying a missile payload like in "Fragged". Even if they were armed, I doubt they would have had the opportunity to defend themselves since it was evidently a trap.

RE: the political overtones. I think RDM does it pretty tastefully though. It hasn’t been that heavy handed for my taste. Yeah, I notice it, but it hasn’t turned me off to the show, and he’s made no attempts to hide the fact that he would be including parallels to the current political climate.

Anyway as far as the episode goes, I enjoyed it.

It had predictable bits as far as the action part of the episode goes - the obvious Cylon trap, the commander sacrificing himself - but the character bits were great. Nice to see the Chief again, and Baltar’s bid for the presidency looks to make for an interesting race. Great scenes for him tonight, especially how he cut Roslin's throat at the end.

The way they seem to be going through commanders on the Pegasus, I don’t see her lasting much longer. Not that I don’t like the extra story potential that the ship provides, I’m just not sure yet how I feel about Lee being stuck in command of the ship for a protracted period of time. Not that there isn't story potential there as far as character growth as well as conflict. I don't know. Just seems rather abrupt that he goes from being a Captain to Commander in such a short period. Maybe this will get him out of that funk he's been stuck in lately.

At least it will get him away from Dee so you can't go wrong there. ;)

Great episode except for that nauseating opening bit. :rolleyes:

GateTrek2004
February 17th, 2006, 11:14 PM
I agree with you that say the begining was a bit neausing. I guess Dee is over Billy! From the start i hated the new pegasus commander. i thought was a a**. i was kinda thinking he would go soon! Whats the pegasus count in commanders now? 3 down! The star trek red shirt stuff is very funny, but it seems to be coming true, only can hope that the newly promoted Commander Lee Adama will not be its next victim. The whole abortion angle was interesting, and agree that in this case of survival that it should be illegal and criminal to abort a pregnancy.(SFI FI WORLD ONLY) I thought that baltar declaring his run for president was a stab in the back to roslin, but hell baltar is a loose cannon who we never seem to know what he will do next, like giving a nuke to the cylon peace movement and stuff like that, that is unpredictable. did you see the way roslin just turned away! i bet she is one pissed woman right now.
At this time, this has been the best episode i have seen this season! my season best!

Downloaded is next week, the Cylon side of the story. have been looking forward to seeing that one. from the prevew it seems like the sharon model is flawed somewhat and maybe it will be explaned, and we will get to see the original sharon that was on Galactica, the one who shot adama since she was reborn, downloaded into a new cloned body! and get to see the beers (lawless) model of cylon as well. hey do you wonder if we will see any more of the 6 models we have not seen yet?

NotAscended
February 17th, 2006, 11:15 PM
Just seems rather abrupt that he goes from being a Captain to Commander in such a short period. Maybe this will get him out of that funk he's been stuck in lately.

At least it will get him away from Dee so you can't go wrong there. ;)



And will end the string of Commander Red-Shirts on the Pegasus. All fine battlestars deserve an Adama at the helm.

anotherquestion
February 17th, 2006, 11:20 PM
If one thing RDM has proven himself to be good at, it's upsetting expectations. Since the first appearance of Pegasus, people have been expecting it to disappear, either destroyed in battle, or blown up by the Cylon sympathizers--instead the ship lives on and the commanders fall like dominoes.

Now Lee's in the hot seat. I think anything can happen.

anotherquestion
February 17th, 2006, 11:23 PM
I saw the cracked canopies, but the shot looked too 'perfect'. Just two bullets through the windshield, one each into the heads of the pilots?

I think the Raptors are armed, (remember Lee took out the Cylons using the Raptors' front guns in Fragged), but just not optimized for anti-air warfare, or ever intended to mix it up with Raiders.
Yes, that bothered me too, but stranger things have happened. Starbuck "killed" the raider in "Act of Contrition" with a single round to the brain, after all. Besides it may have been a single human-looking Cylon drifting in an EVA that the raptors set out to rescue, the source of the original distress signal. They might have gotten all up-close and personal when the decoy whips out a handy sniper rifle when they weren't expecting it.

somedude
February 17th, 2006, 11:27 PM
Yes, that bothered me too, but stranger things have happened. Starbuck "killed" the raider in "Act of Contrition" with a single round to the brain, after all. Besides it may have been a single human-looking Cylon drifting in an EVA that the raptors set out to rescue, the source of the original distress signal. They might have gotten all up-close and personal when the decoy whips out a handy sniper rifle when they weren't expecting it.

haha, yeah, that's a good theory.

CougRon
February 17th, 2006, 11:54 PM
did anyone else find it odd that "The Beast"can take 3 or so nuke hits and not lose a single crew member? Number before the battle 49,584, after the battle, 49,579....four Raptor Pilots and one Red Shir...uhh I mean Pegasus Commander.
Uh, maybe a lot of women suddenly gave birth all at once? :)

I was certainly under the impression that the pegasus had some casualties. especially in engineering from the fire and air loss.

Psychodad
February 17th, 2006, 11:59 PM
Bill Duke in 'Black Market', Dana Delaney in 'Sacrifice', and now John Heard as the Pegasus commander. Good actors all. I'm just sorry to see all these great guest stars bite the big one each week. :o

Yea for the 'beast'! The cylons may have set a trap, but Pegasus kicked some cylon tail. Nice to see the big ships duke it out. Nice effect shots.

Roslyn outlawing abortions in that situation made sense. It was hard for me to watch her make that announcement since I'm staunch pro choice. Was there a scene missing in that episode? What did the young lady say to the Pres that would convince Roslyn to grant her request? Especially since granting the abortion would infuriate the Geminese and errod her political support.

Since the Geminese are such prolife hardliners I wonder if they would have opposed Roslyn's decision to terminate Sharon's baby in Ephianies.

NakedJehutyV2
February 18th, 2006, 12:03 AM
best bsg ep so far!

with lee bangin dee beast owning basestars!

NakedJehutyV2
February 18th, 2006, 12:24 AM
man best ep so far. just.........damn

lordmutt
February 18th, 2006, 01:12 AM
Damn i really want to see this

:sigh: too bad i'm in australia and have to wait months and months...

Lady Snow
February 18th, 2006, 02:15 AM
I only thought it was alright. It was certainly a step up from the past few weeks (thank the Lords of Kobol for not starting with "XX Hours Earlier," especially after a week off!), but it wasn't my favourite episode of the season. I'd have a hard time pinpointing which episode is, but it would fall somewhere between 2.8 and 2.12 ("Final Cut" through "RS, II").

The whole Commander thing caught me as off-guard as it seemed Lee. The father-son interactions are what really sells the show to me - it always resonates and just feels true. Often the rest of the show (heavy-handed abortion debating, for example) feels contrived. The familial relations, particularly in the Adama men's case, amaze me, particularly because of the acting of EJO and Jamie Bamber. Big love for that :)

I'll need to see this one again. I managed to miss the first airing, so I only caught the rerun - yay for Monday night.

userfriendly
February 18th, 2006, 02:24 AM
damn, i liked this one... it only was much too short :D

wow, the beast rocked the cylon's boat! somehow i think they didn't expect a battlestar showing up in their mousetrap. or at least didn't expect it to bite back that hard :D

the opening shot was beautiful, the pegasus against the light of that star. just wow!

AutumnDream
February 18th, 2006, 04:02 AM
WOOOO! BSG is back! Awesome!

I think Lee will be crushed as a commander. :D

- Gaius rules. Go Gaius and Six! Cool ending!
- Roslin rules too. Poor girl.
- Starbuck is back to normal. Whatever that might be. ^_^
- I miss Helo.
- Yay! Tyrol and Callie for 7 seconds!
- Boo! Dee and Lee! Still not cool!
- Woah! Pegasus is tough. But Galactica is tougher! I know it!
- Mr.Engineer guy was weird. I feel sorry for him.
- Yay! The Doc!
- Creepy dead raptors. D:
- Yay! One of those cool Adama/Roslin scenes!
- I swear I saw Major Lorne from Atlantis in this.

Denanthor
February 18th, 2006, 04:05 AM
I never expected a battlestar Fight to be so intense. Usualy nothing realy happens to the battlestars you see them get hit sometimes people rock around. But jesus this one took at least 2 nuke hits and it still survived. Pegasus has gone through 3 commands its a tropper lol

Denanthor
February 18th, 2006, 04:19 AM
How do you get promoted twice lol Major and now Commander. Hes just flyin right up those ranks lol. Maybe next episode he will be Admiral and we will have the Admiral Adamas in charge lol j/k Very good episode I loved the fight scene and how batler is getting crazy. Cant wait to see the next episode

lordmutt
February 18th, 2006, 05:23 AM
I liked this episode, battle scenes weren't a major part of it and that's for the better

Especially liked it when baltar announced he's running against the witch(aka the president) and Six clapped him on.

Is it just me or is john heard too fat to walk? i mean it looked like he waddled around CIC and the engineering room

Arative
February 18th, 2006, 05:39 AM
BSG continues to be my favorite show, pretty much of all time. It was nice to see Pegasus kicking some cylon butt, just goes to show you how out of date Galactica really is compared to the new basestars.

Anyone catch that gemicon delegate saying that according to gemicon law, the teenager was property of her parents? I don't know about you but I sure as hell wouldn't want to live under gemicon law. I think Roslin made the right call in outlawing abortion since the human race is down to less than 50k but I wonder if Baltar was telling the truth that the human race would be extinct in 18 years given current trends?

Baltar is so much better than last season, he's coming into his own and seizing power for himself. Will be nice to see if he win the presidency only to have it ripped from him for some reason.

Denanthor
February 18th, 2006, 05:56 AM
I used to think Atlantis was my favorit Scifi Friday show. But after the whole Pegasus introduction to the Galactica Mix It has amazed me and became my favorit show. I would love to see more of the Pegasus. Id actually want to see the Enginering room more. I expected it ot be a huge room with a massive engine in it or something lol. But I have to agree with arative Bsg is my favorit scifi series as of now

crazy_fan
February 18th, 2006, 05:57 AM
How do you get promoted twice lol Major and now Commander. Hes just flyin right up those ranks lol.

Easy, they have a very limited pool of qualified people to choose from due to the rest of the fleet being dead and all. Fast promotions like that weren't unheard of during WW2 when they had a similar manpower shortage, so I don't see how Apollo's promotion is such a big deal. The only other officer left more senior than Apollo is probably Colonel Tigh and he wasn't very well recieved when he was temporarily in command of Galactica, which is probably why he didn't get or want command of Pegasus, hence Apollo got offered the position, hence Apollo got "promoted twice".

daredevil
February 18th, 2006, 06:05 AM
Did anyone notice the "tension" between Adama and Rolsin when he brought up the comment in the mini-series about "making babies", It almost seemed like Rosilin was shocked like Adama was hitting on her.

On another note, when Lee was talking to Kara did you notice she was rubbing his hand with her thumb? Maybe I'm looking into it too much but it seems like Kara cant make up her mind about Lee, like now that she knows he is with Dee she wants him....

Denanthor
February 18th, 2006, 06:18 AM
Oo no lol I wasnt critisizing it I was kind of amazed by it and all in all I think he desereved it lol

Astaire310
February 18th, 2006, 06:56 AM
Awesome episode. Loved the battle scenes and Apollo is getting much more interesting to watch.

I am very glad that Dee's spine didn't glow red in the first scene, she is definitely not interesting enough to be a Cylon. Hope she isn't pregnant now. That would be yet another big wedge between Kara and Lee.

I also liked the idea of abortion rights dividing the fleet prior to the elections. It fits nicely with the Sharon/Helo story. Good twist to make Baltar run on a pro-choice platform and Roslin a pro-life one after Epiphanies (when Roslin tried to abort Sharon's baby and Baltar fought to save it's life.)

Baltar is becoming deliciously evil. Great character development. I wondered in the mini-series how long it would take me to truly hate him. It is getting close...

keshou
February 18th, 2006, 07:05 AM
Wow...Lee is really on the fast track. Guess it helps when everyone above him keeps getting knocked off. ;) Nevertheless I loved then moment at the end when Adama promoted his son - those two have come a long way. I loved Lee's quote: "Command is about people".

Not sure how long Lee will stay in charge of the Pegasus but it's interesting to see him making the command decisions his father was making at the beginning of the series. Nice to see Lee stepping up and making the tough calls after all the wallowing on the "suicidal" side he was doing during the Resurrection ship episodes.

Lee/Dee was not my favorite way to start the episode - still find that whole relationship to be contrived and phony but guess I'll have to live with it for awhile. :S I was awfully happy to see Lee and Kara get back on track as supportive friends and shipmates there at the end. I like that part of their relationship as much as anything.

Thought the battle with the basestars was great. And I like that Garner redeemed himself after really blowing it earlier in the show.

I don't mind the political overtones to the show. I'm not sure the whole abortion issue is one I'd pick to bring in but Ron Moore does a pretty good job (so far) at not being too heavy-handed. So Baltar is running against Roslin, eh? I wonder how many people would vote for him if they'd seen him talking to himself (Six) in the halls. :P

All in all - a good night of BSG. oooh....and the previews for next week look really interesting. :)

captainpash
February 18th, 2006, 07:05 AM
Best ep ever. Just watched it because I had to tape it, and I have to say I loved it. The opening was okay, I didn't care for it, but wasn't mad about it either. Baltar is Baltar again. Six is still in control. Lee is a commander this rocks. Also Starbuck, and Lee are friends again. I see where they are comming from on abortion, but I still think it should be legal.

somedude
February 18th, 2006, 07:13 AM
I like the scene where Garner tells Lee that he has the Conn, and Lee, unsure of himself, repeats it again, aloud.

Hmm, so it seems the Cylons are trying their new tactic of trying to isolate single battlestars and engage them en force. Did they not realize how strong one battlestar is?

userfriendly
February 18th, 2006, 07:15 AM
Astaire310, roslyn is not "pro-life" (always found that label hypocritical anyway, but that's not the topic), she just thought she had to make that decision, based on what her oh-so-trusted vice-president told her :D great how baltar lured her into his trap :P "extinct in 18 years", yeah rrrrrright... gotcha! :D

somedude
February 18th, 2006, 07:17 AM
Can the Pegasus produce new Raptors like they can Vipers...?

userfriendly
February 18th, 2006, 07:18 AM
probably. why not?

captainpash
February 18th, 2006, 07:18 AM
Probably. Though they lost a good engineer, and it seems that all the others are incompetent compared to him.

userfriendly
February 18th, 2006, 07:21 AM
right :D forgot about that... they weren't able or willing to close three little valves :rolleyes: "i have to get down there" .... *coughcowardcough*

titans
February 18th, 2006, 07:30 AM
well, titans, it seems your ever growing hatred for lee continues. everyone has to have a skill, i suppose... i'm just afraid the latest promotion of the man you love to hate will shave years off your life... keep strong, my i-bro!

Ya know what...I liked Lee in this episode. Several times he actually took charge and kicked butt. With Starbuck and the pilots goofing on Tranmmel and again in the CIC attempting to take charge of the situation with Trammel. Lee finally showed me something. Musta made Admril Adama proud! Not once in this episode did Lee bleed, cry or whine.

titans
February 18th, 2006, 07:36 AM
right :D forgot about that... they weren't able or willing to close three little valves :rolleyes: "i have to get down there" .... *coughcowardcough*

That was so weak! He's the Commander for gods sake! He can't be running off in the middle of a HUGE battle! WEAK!! Even though he was marked for death the minute he was given the Red Shirt of Pegasus command and I saw it coming a mile away, I was still glad to see him go! Sissy. Actually made Lee look like a man in comparison!

userfriendly
February 18th, 2006, 07:38 AM
... Sissy. Actually made Lee look like a man in comparison!
lol :D

btw, wasn't the look on dee's face sweet when she told him, how the galactica is called "the bucket" now? :D

and my favourite one-liner of this ep: "... ... you've got a brain?!" :rolleyes: hilarious :D

titans
February 18th, 2006, 07:43 AM
lol :D

btw, wasn't the look on dee's face sweet when she told him, how the galactica is called "the bucket" now? :D

and my favourite one-liner of this ep: "... ... you've got a brain?!" :rolleyes: hilarious :D

where was that quote? I forgot it.

userfriendly
February 18th, 2006, 07:47 AM
aaawwww... look here, someone needs to rewatch the episode :D


... Not once in this episode did Lee bleed, cry or whine.
right :D astonishing. totally out of character :P ;)

titans
February 18th, 2006, 08:13 AM
aaawwww... look here, someone needs to rewatch the episode :D


right :D astonishing. totally out of character :P ;)

Maybe he's been replaced by a cylon...a manly cylon.

userfriendly
February 18th, 2006, 08:18 AM
yeah, right...


er... major? what happened to my sig? :rolleyes: if you feel my posts are to short for their frequency or the frequency to high for their length, that's ok... but... well?

edit: ok, have read your msg -.- sorry... but the traffic doesn't go via your systems, so why bother?

Hamyseven
February 18th, 2006, 08:20 AM
This episode was fantastic. I missed the opening scene, so I did not get to see the Lee - Dee angle, but I caught the rest. I was as shocked as everyone else that Lee made commander. This should be interesting. The battle scenes were awesome.

But my favorite part was the political move by Baltar. He is finally moving away from being a spineless mind slave of the Cylons and becoming the villian we all have craved him to be. He SO blindsided the President, it made me laugh.

Next weeks episode looks just as good. Can't wait.

cymans
February 18th, 2006, 09:39 AM
first post... Big BSG fan.

I have seen every episode of BSG, and this was one of the better ones.
I thought Starbuck seemed a little softer and I liked her that way. Her and Lee have great chemistry on screen, especially the scene where they "made up".


Battlescenes were fantastic, and what a horrible call by the new captain to jump into an obvious trap. Putting him in command actually was the biggest mistake, since he was an "engine" guy.

My only complaint, going back a few episodes, I though they killed Cain way way to fast, the episdoes where she was in were so great, so much tension and then suddenly she was gone.

This same episode, with Cain still in charge would have been better. Although she wouldn't have given her life, she would have sent someone to die for her decision.

ShadowMaat
February 18th, 2006, 09:53 AM
Yay! Major Lorne jumped from the Pegasus Galaxy to the Battlestar Pegasus. How very slick... and unfortunately all too brief. *sigh* He was nice while he lasted, though, and at least Buster was (as far as we can tell) a good guy, trying to answer a distress call.

Lee/Dee continues to induce projectile vomiting. Please, for the love of the gods, MAKE IT END!!!

The abortion thing, while an interesting debate, seemed a little... I dunno, preachy isn't quite right. Politically heavy-handed, maybe. But then, I just have to accept the fact that however much I loathe politics in ANY form, it's still a serious part of BSG. *grumble*

Have I mentioned how much I hate Lee/Dee? It was good to see him grow a pair in the heat of battle, though, and manage to save the Pegasus. With a little help from Cliched Evil Red Shirt Leader of the Week. :rolleyes: Might be nice if the Pegasus had had a commander that WASN'T a total b******. Would make the loss a little more interesting.

userfriendly
February 18th, 2006, 10:22 AM
he might have had trouble keeping starbuck in line, but he was not a total b****** (whatever) - he made a wrong call, a mistake, yes. but, after all, he was an engineer, not a command vet.

and welcome to the bsg side of the board, cymans :) have fun!

ShadowMaat
February 18th, 2006, 10:53 AM
He was deepening the "us vs. them" atmosphere onboard his ship, he was deliberately keeping Kara in the dark, he tipped his hand about his little spies being everywhere (it's one thing for a commander to seem omnipotent, it's another to wield it in a threatening manner), he wouldn't listen to outsiders, he threatened Kara, he threatened Lee... once again, a guest character has suffered attrition. If we'd been able to put him into better context, maybe his decisions would have made more sense (however "wrong" they were)- we might have understood him and his motivations better. Show us that he isn't quite able to handle the command position. Something, ANYTHING to make him a little more human and a little less of the blindly paranoid control freak Kara said he was. I know there are limits to what you can do in a 40-something minute ep, but I personally like to know WHY things happen and why characters react the way they do.

Cutting out the Lee/Dee scnee could have provided time for a few instances here and there of who the Commander guy was. Just because he's a Red Shirt doesn't mean he has no story to tell and it could have given us a better picture of what the Pegasus is like to see how he treated his staff and how they treated him. Did they do what he said because they were blindly following orders? Or did they actually respect him? Or is it just more of that "us vs. them" crap?

TameFarrar
February 18th, 2006, 11:03 AM
Well first...COMPLETELY enjoyed the episode as usual :)

After I got done *gagging* over Lee/Dee ... I was at least happy that they seemed more natural on the screen instead of wooden. But unfortunately TPTB have no idea just how much they have damaged Dee's character for me personally at this point. When she was *just Dee I really enjoyed her on screen moments and felt she had a compassion that was wonderful. Now I see she is no different than any other stereo-typical side bit female part. Comes off as one way for a while but then writers have to demolish her integrity and after she spent wpisodes making one man jump through hoops she now has yet another in her bed.... YAY...NOT ... daytime drama anyone?

All the interaction between the Pegasus Commander and Lee was interesting. Watching Lee get a handle on this guy yet realizing that this IS who is in Command and backing that up even though Lee knew the guy was totally unequipped for the job. Very well written and well played.

All the scenes with Lee and Kara were riviting.... these two just make the scenes *real* with looks and words.. Kudos to both the writers and the actors. Kara in all her bravado and then her face just drops when Lee throws out that she shot him. What a moment. WHAT a performance!!! :)

The Battle scenes...one word...INCREDIBLE!!!! :D :D

I don't mind the politics as long as they are *part* of the overall story and blended in and this was well done IMHO. I like that Laura was shown battling with this decsion. I also like how the writers showed that she has to make hard choices that may not make her well liked. I loved the last scene with the Geminese Rep. You have what you want Now Go...... powerful moment:)

Since they said in teh beginning a month had past I wasn't to shocked that Lee was already a Major and I expected the promotion at this point....I mean heck if they had to promote an Engineer to the Commander position then they were scrapping the bottom of the Barrel for ranking officers over on Pegasus... so I called that one when the Commander went into the room to save the ship... So it wasn't two promotions at once for Lee but two promotions over at least a months time :)

However, completely enjoyed the father son scene.

Overall I was thrilled to be pulled back *into* the show... last week boredme to tears........... with a few exceptions Kara and Adama being the only high points for me............ So this was a welcome return to BSG-land :D

CKO
February 18th, 2006, 11:05 AM
yes loose the Lee/Dee..... if that crap wasnt there... the eppy would have been one of the best this season.

NotAscended
February 18th, 2006, 11:06 AM
Just because he's a Red Shirt doesn't mean he has no story to tell and it could have given us a better picture of what the Pegasus is like to see how he treated his staff and how they treated him. Did they do what he said because they were blindly following orders? Or did they actually respect him? Or is it just more of that "us vs. them" crap?

I think it has been well established in prior episodes that the Pegasus crew had developed a strong "us against the world" attitude during their time before meeting the fleet. I would expect that feeling to be particularly strong among the guys running the engine room, since their sole priority since the original Cylon attack would be to keep the Pegasus going at all costs. Their distrust and disdain of the Galactica crew has also been clear, since they come from the "better" ship and were not the people stuck on a nearly decommissioned ship. In light of that, I didn't find the Red Shirt's attitude unexpected, but he did show very poor command judgment to keep Kara out of the loop and ignore Adama's orders. The latter poor judgment could certainly be chalked up to the fact that they guy just wasn't a military strategist and clearly didn't have much battle experience to draw upon.


What I did find interesting was the guard who was willing to overlook Lee Adama's relieving Red Shirt and follow Red Shirt's orders. Now that Lee is their commander, is he going to be dealing with a potentially mutinous crew or will the rank and file decide they are really part of the fleet now.

edited to try to make a coherent sentence

Lady Snow
February 18th, 2006, 11:10 AM
Just randomly thought - now that Lee outranks Tigh, how will that dynamic shift, if at all?

Oh, so exciting. Thank you, TPTB.

burn out
February 18th, 2006, 11:16 AM
What I did find interesting was the guard who was willing to overlook Lee Adama's relieving Red Shirt and follow Red Shirt's orders. Now that Lee is their commander, is he going to be dealing with a potentially mutinous crew or will the rank and file decide they are really part of the fleet now.


i was thinking the exact same thing, and he (i'm guessing) doesn't have an XO from Galactica's crew to fall back on either.. hard time's ahead maybe?

titans
February 18th, 2006, 12:07 PM
Just randomly thought - now that Lee outranks Tigh, how will that dynamic shift, if at all?

Oh, so exciting. Thank you, TPTB.

I was thinking about that...thats really gonna twist Tigh that Lee now out ranks him.

Poor Tigh..he'd be a good, compitent officer and would probably have been handed the Pegasus command if he'd just stop the bozing.

Nyiz
February 18th, 2006, 12:36 PM
What's with the Admiral?! Why did he put Lee in command of the Pegasus? Because he knows some tactics? He knows very little about commanding. Even Garner knew more! Would Lee sacrifice his life to save Pegasus? I doubt it. From episode to episode I hate Apollo more and more. The old man has lost his mind or what?! A flyboy in command? Worser than an engineer if you ask me. And how the hell got flyboy Adama promoted two time in a couple of weeks?! And WHY?! Why wouldn't the Admiral put Tigh in command instead? He has the ability to command a BS with discipline and Pegasus could adapt very fast to it because Cain was like that too. A flyboy in command? Right. Now that's what I call out of the box thinking. Well, it's light years from the box in this case. What will come next? Apollo will candidate for the presidency? Oh, I know: In the next episode (Downloaded) he will be revealed as God and he will lead the fleet to salvation. I hope the Pegasus will be destroyed pretty soon when Lee "God" Adama will be on board.

Vip3r
February 18th, 2006, 12:49 PM
Ahh, it's good to see the 'old' BSG back on form again. The last few episodes were fairly mediocre imho, but this episode has vindicated itself. I once again felt the drama and tension that I have come to expect from the series, something that I feared was beginning to disappear as of lately.

Good work RDM and Co. thanks for a great episode.

Nyiz
February 18th, 2006, 12:55 PM
I realized why the Admiral is acting like stupid! Every month the just current commander dies. The Admiral wants get rid of the flyboy this way. It'll look like an accident. No one will care that the corrent commander dies. It's regular these days.

grover
February 18th, 2006, 01:04 PM
I enjoyed the episode except for... you guessed it... the Dee/Lee opening. I hate the relationship because it's been so forced from Day 1. Although props goes to the voice who pointed out that at least we didn't see a glowing spine on Dee. Although I'm not sure she would have glowed while kissing.

Anyways, it's been said countless times that "the Beast" is all tough and what not for taking on 3 Base Stars and I have to ask... what episode were you folks watching??? Pegasus was getting it's tail kicked left, right and sideways. Yes she got one Base Star to turn and run (thanks to the heads up decision by Lee to get within knife fighting range) but the other two ships were smacking her silly and if Garner doesn't get the FTL back on line "the Beast" was going to end up roast duck. Pegasus took a ton of damage, it will be interesting to see if it will be worth the time and effort to patch her up.

On a related note, I don't think Lee is going to have too hard a time with the Pegasus crew. Simply put, he saved their butts. That kind of action tends to buy one much good will and respect.

Loved the Kara/Lee tension, and I almost wish they hadn't patched thing up at the end of the episode. But 6 in 1 and half a dozen in the other.... And yes, Kara was definetly giving thumb rubs while she was holding Lee's hand. !!!TANGENT ALERT!!! That is what the Lee/Dee relationship has been missing from the beginning... thumb rubs and the underlying affection that they imply. If Kara and Lee hooked up for good next episode... and I mean that in a "till Death do us part kinda way"... it would be completely believable in context of what their characters have shared together.

And about frakking time with Baltar. Roslyn is woeful in the political campainging arena. She got blindsided by Zarek's nomination to the Qurom and his push for the vice-presidency and know Baltar turns against her. She's like the French before WW2, she was looking to re-fight the last war (vs. Zarek) and she wasn't ready for the blitz. Brilliant play by Baltar at the news conference.

burn out
February 18th, 2006, 01:08 PM
flyboy in command? Worser than an engineer if you ask me.
Bill Adama is a "flyboy" too.

Nyiz
February 18th, 2006, 01:14 PM
Bill Adama is a "flyboy" too.

Okay, true, but he has the knowledge of how to command a BS. And I'm almost 100% sure, that he hasn't got promoted to commander from captain in a month.

burn out
February 18th, 2006, 01:16 PM
Don't think it's gonna matter much, Lee knows how to command he wasnt CAG for nothing after all. I'm looking foreward to the new possibilities it opens!

Nyiz
February 18th, 2006, 01:24 PM
Well, time will decide it, but I think not. He was just lucky, because he knew a few tactics, but that not neccesarly means that he is a good leader. Loyality is not gained only by good combat skills.

Liverpool_chicK
February 18th, 2006, 01:27 PM
I Loved this episode... One of the best since the start of the second half. I liked that Starbuck was causing trouble for the command crew on Pegasus and not on the Galactica, but somehow it was still affecting them. As I am one those that REALLY, really dislike the whole Lee/Dee thingie whatever it is called, I am, in a way, REALLY happy :D that they are now on 2 different ships. The thing that I dont understand is how can Lee jump a full rank to go from Major to Commander? 'Cause would you not go from Lt. to Captin to Major to Colonel and then to Commander. For what I understand of the military, it is very, VERY rare that someone would get a promotion like this. I am not sure if this has been brought up in a pervious post.

anotherquestion
February 18th, 2006, 01:32 PM
What's with the Admiral?! Why did he put Lee in command of the Pegasus? Because he knows some tactics? He knows very little about commanding. Even Garner knew more! Would Lee sacrifice his life to save Pegasus? I doubt it. From episode to episode I hate Apollo more and more. The old man has lost his mind or what?! A flyboy in command? Worser than an engineer if you ask me. And how the hell got flyboy Adama promoted two time in a couple of weeks?! And WHY?! Why wouldn't the Admiral put Tigh in command instead? He has the ability to command a BS with discipline and Pegasus could adapt very fast to it because Cain was like that too. A flyboy in command? Right. Now that's what I call out of the box thinking. Well, it's light years from the box in this case. What will come next? Apollo will candidate for the presidency? Oh, I know: In the next episode (Downloaded) he will be revealed as God and he will lead the fleet to salvation. I hope the Pegasus will be destroyed pretty soon when Lee "God" Adama will be on board.
Why dis Lee so much? Bill Adama was a flyboy himself before he commanded Gallactica.

Lee was already "Commander Air Group" CAG for quite a while so he does, in fact, know quite a bit about command.

Tigh would be a bad choice for the very reasons you cite, his command style was too discipline-oriented. Tigh was like Cain in most respects execept he himself lacks self-discipline, while always willing to criticize others for the same or lesser failings. He never wanted Bill Adama's job and seemed grateful to hand it back to him.

Garner was the best senior officer Pegasus had left. After three deaths-at-the top in short order, I doubt that any senior officer on either ship coveted taking on the Beast at this point.

sci-fiGeek
February 18th, 2006, 03:01 PM
Not impressed with the Dee/Lee thing either. Can't see it lasting though they got together too quickly. I mean they have no where else to go with it short of making her a Cylon. Besides i think the irony of it all is she used Billy while waiting to see if Lee showed any real interest in her and Lee is doing the same while waiting for Starbuck to come to her senses and admit she's interested. I mean we already know she is. She called out his name while in bed with Baltar!!!

Amanda Eros
February 18th, 2006, 03:42 PM
Besides the whole Dee/Lee ship at the beginning of the epsiode, I thought that it was pretty good. Though I just hope that they don't have to revisit the abortion thing with Dee/Lee. That would just be too predictable.

lord_shar
February 18th, 2006, 03:47 PM
1st post... please forgive me if this was mentioned already, but was that Jessica Biel playing the Pegasus flight captain working with Starbuck? I searched repeatedly for the episode credits online and couldn't find squat. She's also been in 7th Heaven, Blade Trinity, etc...

anotherquestion
February 18th, 2006, 04:03 PM
Sex, love and marriage among the colonials are all separate states of being with few, if any, exemplary relationships.


The only actual current marriage, at least as far as I can recall, is between Saul and Ellen Tigh.
There are no known uncomplicated, single-paired love relationships, except for the one between Lee and Dee.


Everything is at least a triangle, and you could argue that more vertexes exist on the relationships described above. (Ellen likes Lee, obviously, and Lee has some messy feelings for Starbuck and vice versa). Baltar has a love triangle with multiple instances of Number 6.

Why are so many taking shots at the Dee and Lee thing?

If Roslyn's proclamation to go forth and multiply is to have any chance of success, what are the implications for love and marriage?

Should divorce be forbidden?
In the case of a single partner's infertility, should divorce be mandatory?
Should marriage be promoted at all? Is promiscuity the answer to rapid population rebuilding?
What about the Geminese concept of parental ownership of children? Are children now important "property" of the state?

lordmutt
February 18th, 2006, 04:10 PM
Also the girl who was aborting is the actress from Andromeda 1x03, i love her voice! yes off topic so what...

Amanda Eros
February 18th, 2006, 04:17 PM
Wouldn't it make more sence for them to wait until they reached Earth to start to procreate again. Other wise they don't have very many resorces, and as it is the best thing is to have a healthy diet if you're pregnate. Living off of rations isn't a good thing for a woman who's going to have a baby. Nor is it good for the baby at the same time. Plus, it's likely that the birthrate will drop anyway, a person has to have a certain amount of body fat on their frame to have children. Living on half rations will mean that more and more women won't be able to have children as their weight decreases.

Amanda Eros
February 18th, 2006, 04:17 PM
Also the girl who was aborting is the actress from Andromeda 1x03, i love her voice! yes off topic so what...

I think that was also Jenny from Stargate in the 1969 episode.

AutumnDream
February 18th, 2006, 04:21 PM
Holy crap. I thought I knew her from somewhere. I saw 1969 like four days ago. :D

The Shadow
February 18th, 2006, 05:41 PM
What's with the Admiral?! Why did he put Lee in command of the Pegasus? Because he knows some tactics? He knows very little about commanding. Even Garner knew more! Would Lee sacrifice his life to save Pegasus? I doubt it. From episode to episode I hate Apollo more and more. The old man has lost his mind or what?! A flyboy in command? Worser than an engineer if you ask me. And how the hell got flyboy Adama promoted two time in a couple of weeks?! And WHY?! Why wouldn't the Admiral put Tigh in command instead? He has the ability to command a BS with discipline and Pegasus could adapt very fast to it because Cain was like that too. A flyboy in command? Right. Now that's what I call out of the box thinking. Well, it's light years from the box in this case. What will come next? Apollo will candidate for the presidency? Oh, I know: In the next episode (Downloaded) he will be revealed as God and he will lead the fleet to salvation. I hope the Pegasus will be destroyed pretty soon when Lee "God" Adama will be on board.

Let's not forget that Lee was put into the position of CAG of Galactica at the very beginning when he's never been a CAG before, and he proved to be an awsome CAG. Adama too was a flyboy....while I don't think flyboys should be in charge of crowd control, but being a commander, Lee is more than up to the task. And Lee is after all Adama's son, I think he would know if his son is competent for the job. Adama wouldn't risk his son's life just because he wants his son in command if Lee isn't ready.

It certainly took them long enough to promote Lee. I think Lee is gonna be great, he doesn't just know some tactics, he knows a lot about how the Cylons attack so he can make a pretty accurate decision and not to metion the fact that Lee's got a great potential to be the best, all he needs is a nudge in the back (a sign to show that someone believes in him) to reach his greatest potential because when he's good, he's good.

dec55
February 18th, 2006, 06:06 PM
Next week's Sharon episode is gonna rock......I am glad the original Sharon
is fighting mad.....at her situation....I think she has the Cylon hierarchy stunned.

creed462
February 18th, 2006, 07:34 PM
As a pro-lifer i'm said that they made the pro-lifers in the show so mean.
other then that it was a good ep

dec55
February 18th, 2006, 08:56 PM
As a pro-lifer i'm said that they made the pro-lifers in the show so mean.
other then that it was a good ep


Well it was kinda funny seeing that Roslin didn't bat an eye ordering Sharon's
baby killed..... Even if the kid was half human..... they had Sharon at gun point.

crazy_fan
February 18th, 2006, 09:05 PM
thing that I dont understand is how can Lee jump a full rank to go from Major to Commander? 'Cause would you not go from Lt. to Captin to Major to Colonel and then to Commander. For what I understand of the military, it is very, VERY rare that someone would get a promotion like this. I am not sure if this has been brought up in a pervious post.

Its not unheard of during wartime situations for people to go from mid-level command to top-level command if there was a shortage of manpower. Apart from Tigh, who else could have been chosen instead of Apollo to command Pegasus that had sufficient experience? Apart from Starbuck, I don't think that there's anyone else.

Quinn Mallory
February 18th, 2006, 09:05 PM
This was a great epiosde. Best one since the awesome Resurrection Ship two parter (yeah, that wasn't that long ago).

Too bad Major Lorne (whatever his name is on the show) died but I guess if he ever loses his spot on SGA (which I hope not), he could be a cylon on BSG. Now it would've been interesting if someone just saw the teaser to BSG and then watch the SGA episode for this week (Coup d'Ete).

The promoting Lee to commander thing is a bit sketchy but I guess there are just not that many qualified people around.

I think the presidential election is shaping up to the main point of the end of season 2 and it's quite interesting...hope to see it at least partially resolved by the end of this season.

Las thing, the death count (toward the end of the show) seemed quite low since one would expect some casualty on Pegasus other than the commander.

THSEX1138
February 18th, 2006, 09:20 PM
AWSOME episode! Pegasus kicks Cylon butt!! The revolving door at Pegasus CIC continues, and BALTARS A PIMP!! AWSOME!!!

Over all this was a good episode. The "Crimson Tide/ Star Trek Wrath of Khan" situations that made themselves present did harm the overall originality yet in still a good show.

Like Mr. Khan said " Revenge is a dish best served cold!" Hats off to Dr. Baltar for the 2006 PIMP SLAP* of the year on President LAURA ROSLIN. The text book CRAZY IVAN to announce his Presidential campaign just adds more pins to the voodoo doll. During this entire series Roslin has done whatever it takes to keep her post as president. When Zarak was in a position to win the election she assumed Baltar would play the quiet pawn, what a mistake that was. Former Presidential ad-visor Wallace Grey once said " he never thought that she would fit in with the bare knuckle backstabbing politicians "not true the slide continues. Also honorable mention to Mr. Spock I mean Commander Barry Garner for saving the ship "..the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few cough or the one cough , cough!" Do you think the Snipes could have opened the hatch when the lights came on and saved the poor Frak. I'm glad they didn't he sucked! How did he make it past the interview with Adama? He made it because the gene pool is not deep folks. There are less than 50,000 humans and this number has to increase. Fill up the new Yankee Stadium (51,000) with people and kill everybody else in the world and guess what you get...? You get Lee and Dee. Dee presents stability for Commander Lee Adama and he will need that now more than ever. In my opinion I believe that some viewers would be much happier is Dee was a Caucasian female from Aerelon. If that's what you want to see watch Stargate Atlantis.

http://fapomatic.com/07/12299_1.jpg

* 2005 PIMP SLAP WINNER Lee Adama punches Kara Thrace

Blue Banrigh
February 18th, 2006, 09:21 PM
Didn't mind that Apollo got the command of the Beast, at least we'll know he'll survive longer than Cain, Fisk or Garner.

I think he'll win over the crew. He alienated most of the Galactica pilots and deck crew in the mini and yet he eventually won them over. He should be fine with the Pegasus.

Hehehe, Young Lt Hammond, Jenny and Lorne. Lots of SG actors.

ShadowMaat
February 18th, 2006, 09:28 PM
Well it was kinda funny seeing that Roslin didn't bat an eye ordering Sharon's baby killed..... Even if the kid was half human..... they had Sharon at gun point.
Y'know, I wondered about that. But general consensus is that Cylons aren't people, they're things. Just because the baby's father is human doesn't make it "real". In fact, it'd probably best be termed a monster and monsters are things, too. *shrug*

I'm not saying that's how I feel about it, mind you, but looking at it from the viewpoint of your average Colonial... *shrug*

Lady Snow
February 18th, 2006, 09:30 PM
Hats off to Dr. Baltar for the 2006 PIMP SLAP* of the year on President LAURA ROSLIN.

...

* 2005 PIMP SLAP WINNER Lee Adama punches Kara Thrace

I don't normally do this, but in this instance I must: :lol: So very very true on both counts!


I think he'll win over the crew. He alienated most of the Galactica pilots and deck crew in the mini and yet he eventually won them over. He should be fine with the Pegasus.

And he helped in saving Pegasus rather a lot when he had the Com (Con?). I think that might help. A bit. ;)

MASON
February 18th, 2006, 09:36 PM
I think there are prominent non-Cylon religous fundamentalists clearly visible among the Colonials, most notably the uncharmingly named Geminese. These were a political core group for Roslyn in her prophetic phase, now they are a volatile element, forcing her to take positions against her personal inclinations.

Roslyn always remains pragmatic and is a compromiser, something offensive to fundamentalists of all stripes.

I personally like the political undertones, they have the RDM twist to them, so they are evocative of current controversies, but with a different spin. The loss of personal rights, in this case, was directly tied to the survival of the human race. The decision was buttressed by science (in Baltar's study), not ideology. The "reactionary" cause was advanced, but no faction achieved all it sought out.

Baltar again does what he does best--betrayal. After clinching the argument for the ban against abortion by his gloomy anti-Malthusian study, he abjures the logical conclusion and instead panders to the faction that would react most vociferously against such a measure. In this sense, he is betraying science itself as well as Roslyn. I don't know why people keep wanting to ally with him, now Zarek gets in line to be shafted like all the others.

Well said, I agree on all points. :)

Aussie_86
February 18th, 2006, 10:43 PM
Since the subjects of "Roslin's a religious Prophet' and 'Baltar's a man of science' were pushed by Zarek, does anyone see a "Science vs. Religion" debate comming up for the Elections?! I do.

Vyrsace
February 18th, 2006, 10:57 PM
Excellent episode. I've always had high regard for every episode this season (as well as with last season's episodes). This episode is very unique because it brought a nice semi-conclusion to the inside madness of the Pegasus. The presentation of two promotions within the same episode is a fair one because if this were any other sci-fi and each promotion was given as per episode then a noticeable majority of viewers would dispute 'did that, done it, bored.'

In regards to the common question, 'Will Commander Lee Adama be able to command the Pegasus properly? Will they trust him enough?' I think it's obvious that they will follow orders regardless of the impact of his decisions. Whether the Pegasus crew will follow Commander Lee Adama in the same fashion they did Admiral Cain then it would be hard to say and only experience via time can tell that tale.

I find the Commander Lee Adama scenario was predictable but in a good way and unpredictable in an exciting way. The rumors always existed that this would happen and we all knew that this Pegasus disorder had to come to an end somehow. Why? Because if this didn't come to an end then we'd never get back to the real point: the salvation of Humanity and the Cylons. Though, this is Battlestar Galactica where anything could happen in so many interesting paths and we didn't know for sure until it really happens. Hence, why we watch and enjoy the show.

I guess they threw in the whole "...when you were CAG" conversation with Starbuck and Lee Adama because they wanted to clear up the whole vagueness of her status. I'm glad this is a sci-fi where they see the gaps and inconsistancies and fill them up with logic, reasoning, and good clear dialogue. A show for the people by the people.

Adieux.

dec55
February 18th, 2006, 11:13 PM
Since the subjects of "Roslin's a religious Prophet' and 'Baltar's a man of science' were pushed by Zarek, does anyone see a "Science vs. Religion" debate comming up for the Elections?! I do.


What's funny is RM is mixing it up.....Baltar takes the Pro abortion side....
for politics....Rosilin takes the Pro Life side, when she is clearly for abortion
on demand....... While Adama has to remind Rosilin that she wants folks to
make babies at all cost.....


Talk about taking all sides of the issue and having them fight each other...:lol



uncharmingly named Geminese

I think the name has a graceful flow about it myself....



You get Lee and Dee. Dee presents stability for Commander Lee Adama and he will need that now more than ever. In my opinion I believe that some viewers would be much happier is Dee was a Caucasian female from Aerelon.


Dee is hot......Lucky Lee.....:D

THSEX1138
February 19th, 2006, 12:04 AM
Dee is hot......Lucky Lee.....:D
ROGER THAT! She works out has a good job has nice teeth and to my knowledge has not slept with Dr. Baltar.

boodoosy
February 19th, 2006, 12:51 AM
I give and submit to the anti Dee/Lee Brigade! Their relationship seems so forced. I can't see any possible reason for their relationship to get so much attention during this episode. That time could have been better filled with more wonderful CGI effects.

Since I am in Japan, I caught a Japanese word that was used in this episode. It was when one of the bridge officers told Lee that the vipers were down to "skosh" ammo. Sukoshi, often pronounced "skosh" means "very little." That was a nice catch for me.

I won't touch the story line, because I think everyone has covered almost every angle possible. I was completely taken away by the fine details that RDM puts in BSG. One of my favorites was when the three base stars jumped right behind the raptors. On BSG's draedus (sp) boards, it displayed three targets labeled "UNKNOWN". Shortly after that it changed the "UNKNOWN" to "ENEMY BASE". Not only that, but the icons changed once the enemy base stars were identified. That was so perfect. Also, as Pegasus' vipers were returning to the Pegasus (upside down I may add), you could see Pegasus' emblem on the landing bay. I know this may not be much, but it is the fine details of this episode that impressed me.

justinbrett
February 19th, 2006, 02:31 AM
The writers really would be stupid to kill of pegasus.

It increases the plot dynamics exponentially. If the show is going to last more than a couple of seasons, it needs something like this.

I wouldn't be surprised in future seasons if they develop a planet base, where ever that might be. That really would make the show interestig.

DaniGurl
February 19th, 2006, 06:20 AM
I like the Dee/Lee affair. Like someone mentioned before she provides him with the stabilitly that Kara simply cannot. If Lee hooked up with Kara he would end up getting himself killed trying to save her or something. Kara needs someone that will calm her behind on down. Make her think before she acts. A man who isn't Lee because I think she always sees him as kinda patronizing her. And hello, she frakked his dead bother Zak. Maybe y'all forgot about that one. You just don't do that people. Why? Because it is just frakkin nasty.

D.

DaniGurl
February 19th, 2006, 06:33 AM
In my opinion I believe that some viewers would be much happier is Dee was a Caucasian female from Aerelon. If that's what you want to see watch Stargate Atlantis.

http://fapomatic.com/07/12299_1.jpg

* 2005 PIMP SLAP WINNER Lee Adama punches Kara Thrace

That's the only reason I can think too. Hate all y'all want Lee going to be with Dee for a while. So in y'alls faces!

D.

Quinn Mallory
February 19th, 2006, 07:28 AM
In my opinion I believe that some viewers would be much happier is Dee was a Caucasian female from Aerelon. If that's what you want to see watch Stargate Atlantis.


What's with the bashing of Stargate Atlantis? They had that Hispanic girl as an Ancient in season 1 that hooked up with Sheppard, in addtion to Teyla.

Luthien
February 19th, 2006, 07:30 AM
Hats off to Dr. Baltar for the 2006 PIMP SLAP* of the year on President LAURA ROSLIN.

LOL! I have to agree! You've got to love Baltar. And Six.

On a whole, I think this was an awesome episode! I hate the way it started, but I like the way everything played out in the end. Although, I have to admit that the promotion did surprise me. I didn't think Lee would go from Major to Commander in one ep. Then again, having another Adama on Pegasus should prove to be interesting. At least Pegasus won't likely get blown up or destroyed this season, as long as Lee's Commander man.

But please oh please ... no more Lee/Dee. It's just wrong! Can't wait for the next ep.

ShadowMaat
February 19th, 2006, 07:44 AM
In my opinion I believe that some viewers would be much happier is Dee was a Caucasian female from Aerelon.
What an incredibly rude and arrogant generalization you have made. My reasons for disliking Dee's relationship with Lee have nothing to do with the color of either one's skin and everything to do with their personalities and if you'd bother to read what people have been saying about it rather than looking down your nose and condemning us all, you'd see that most of the other complainers have similar issues. I don't recall seeing anyone bringing race into the discussion as a reason for Lee and Dee to stay apart and I think it's an incredibly shallow and outmoded thing to try and shove it in, now. But hey, it's so much easier to ignore what folks are saying and dismiss them as a bunch of racists, isn't it?

mudguts
February 19th, 2006, 07:56 AM
I just find any relationship between Lee and Dee kind of misguided when Dee's character is so boring, especially when you have the guaranteed cluster**** that would result from Lee pursuing a relationship with Starbuck. Not that I want this to turn into Days of our Lives in Space but those interpersonal dynamics are what make BSG so compelling for me. Dee's too straightlaced to be the basis of interesting, dramatic viewing, and that has nothing to do with the colour of her skin.

On a side note did anyone notice the pilot in the briefing room who seemed to be rather taken with Lee - the same one who was working with Starbuck to piece together the garbled transmission? Was I just seeing things or was love in the air?

And I said this before, but since when is Lee having sex he hasn't paid for?

ShadowMaat
February 19th, 2006, 08:01 AM
On a side note did anyone notice the pilot in the briefing room who seemed to be rather taken with Lee - the same one who was working with Starbuck to piece together the garbled transmission? Was I just seeing things or was love in the air?
I noticed an exchange of looks, but didn't give it much thought. Maybe she can be Lee's bedmate on Pegasus while Dee keeps things warm back on the Bucket. :P

MASON
February 19th, 2006, 08:14 AM
While I was refreshed by the absence of flashbacks in TC'sH, I was still disappointed that yet another guest star had to be killed off in the span of an episode. It's one thing when it appears that all Pegasus commanders are doomed to an early retirement, but when guest stars are so readily killed off how can the audience be expected to buy it?

THSEX1138
February 19th, 2006, 11:00 AM
What an incredibly rude and arrogant generalization you have made. My reasons for disliking Dee's relationship with Lee have nothing to do with the color of either one's skin and everything to do with their personalities and if you'd bother to read what people have been saying about it rather than looking down your nose and condemning us all, you'd see that most of the other complainers have similar issues. I don't recall seeing anyone bringing race into the discussion as a reason for Lee and Dee to stay apart and I think it's an incredibly shallow and outmoded thing to try and shove it in, now. But hey, it's so much easier to ignore what folks are saying and dismiss them as a bunch of racists, isn't it?

{Mod Snip}

There is just something special about being called rude and arrogant...it kinda makes me feel like Han Solo. For this many thanks...

I'll try to keep this as PG as possible but here is my reply to your rant. The Battlestars Galactica and Pegasus are not really headed to Earth. This is a TV show. All of this is not really happening. This just happens to be thee best television show that I've seen in years. It's so good in fact that I joined this Forum. The rules in the Gateworld forum don't say Racists can't join. This forum is full of people that all have different views and opinions about BSG and anyone on it has the right to disagree with you and me. I have read many of your thousands of post and there have been more than a few times when comments you've made were taken out of context and you spent entries upon entries attempting to make people see things your way, this is something I will not do.


http://fapomatic.com/08/weapons_free.jpg

If this were a normal show Kara and Lee would have been together since day one and lived happily ever after. As we all know the people who make BSG are in a league of there own and realize that handing this inevitable relationship to everyone so soon would be such a waste of good material.

Semaj Ovured
February 19th, 2006, 11:37 AM
Anyone else wonder why TIGHE hasn't been given the Commander's chair of Pegasus? It will be interesting if this comes up in later episodes.

Alpha17X
February 19th, 2006, 11:41 AM
After watching this episode I came to the ultimate realization,

The Pegasus is not a battlestar. It is a demonic siege engine that eats commanders and defecates drama.

grover
February 19th, 2006, 01:02 PM
In my opinion I believe that some viewers would be much happier is Dee was a Caucasian female from Aerelon. If that's what you want to see watch Stargate Atlantis.

Well, in my opinion you should spend more time reading why people hate the Lee/Dee relationship so much. That way you'd avoid these embarassing foot-in-mouth moments. See, everyone sees the affection between Lee and Kara, "The Captain's Hand" had a real nice scene at the end that shows this affection. The little thumb rub that Kara gave Lee when she shook his hand was more love and tenderness than you could find in any 6 episodes between Lee and Dee. The powers that be have forced this relationship since the beginning "flip" and they have then cut most of the interplay that could lead one to believe that these two characters would end up as lovers. They have so butchered this attempt at a love match that they make the old Jack/Sam struggles from SG-1 look like frakking Romeo and Juliet.

Race has nothing to do with it. This relationship has all the freakin' warmth of a game of spin-the-bottle.

cyke
February 19th, 2006, 01:53 PM
I don't like the Lee/Dee relationship because their names rhyme. No, not really, hehe. it is because it felt so forced and out of the blue. since the mini series aired it was dee and billy. and then we get one episode where lee and dee are training and the gym and its like, where did that come from?

but if thats how dee is. then billy is better off with out her.. oh wait. he's dead :(



and talk about rising through the ranks. one minute he's major.. now he's commander of the pegasus ? i dont think its a good choice for lee to be commander, he might be a good soldier but idont think he likes the military life.

well the political action heats up as roslin battles baltar for president. talk about drama..

NotAscended
February 19th, 2006, 02:20 PM
Well it was kinda funny seeing that Roslin didn't bat an eye ordering Sharon's
baby killed..... Even if the kid was half human..... they had Sharon at gun point.

I also wondered if the new abortion ruling applies to Cylon-Human hybrids. Does this mean that no one can interfere with Sharon's baby being born? Or do Colonial rights not apply to cylon prisoners?

titans
February 19th, 2006, 03:01 PM
Anyone else wonder why TIGHE hasn't been given the Commander's chair of Pegasus? It will be interesting if this comes up in later episodes.

Because he's a trainwreck of a drunk would be my thoughts.

titans
February 19th, 2006, 03:02 PM
After watching this episode I came to the ultimate realization,

The Pegasus is not a battlestar. It is a demonic siege engine that eats commanders and defecates drama.

WOW! That might be the most awsome thing I've ever read...ever.

Blue Banrigh
February 19th, 2006, 03:26 PM
Anyone else wonder why TIGHE hasn't been given the Commander's chair of Pegasus? It will be interesting if this comes up in later episodes.
They already tried that with the Galactica at the beginning of the season and it wasn't pretty.

Even in the mini he was balking at taking command of the firecrew when the ship first got attacked. He doesn't like commanding a battlestar and has told Adama that several times.

Speakfire
February 19th, 2006, 03:44 PM
I bet Lee's promotion over Tigh is going to go over like a lead balloon with Ellen Tigh.

titans
February 19th, 2006, 04:02 PM
I bet Lee's promotion over Tigh is going to go over like a lead balloon with Ellen Tigh.

Oh poor Ellen! Maybe she'll throw herself out an airlock in a fit of dispair!

MASON
February 19th, 2006, 04:14 PM
After watching this episode I came to the ultimate realization,

The Pegasus is not a battlestar. It is a demonic siege engine that eats commanders and defecates drama.
There's nothing like Canadian humour. :D ;) :)

grover
February 19th, 2006, 04:19 PM
I bet Lee's promotion over Tigh is going to go over like a lead balloon with Ellen Tigh.

Really? You can arrange a lead balloon over Ellen Tigh? Splitting open that melon would make you a hero around here.

titans
February 19th, 2006, 04:31 PM
There's nothing like Canadian humour. :D ;) :)

There is Canadian Humor??

MASON
February 19th, 2006, 08:55 PM
There is Canadian Humor??

Off topic, but here I go:

Mike Myers
Norm MacDonald
Jim Carrey
Catherine O'Hara
Martin Short
Rick Moranis
John Candy
Eugene Levy
Michael J. Fox...etc. just to name a few who you might not have known were Canadian... ;)

Back on topic (I promise the above won't happen again), do you think the Pegasus is going to last through to season 3?

I have this feeling that they're going to save the Pegasus for an offensive on the Cylon homeworld, and go out barrels blazing.

mudguts
February 19th, 2006, 09:14 PM
Back on topic (I promise the above won't happen again), do you think the Pegasus is going to last through to season 3?

I have this feeling that they're going to save the Pegasus for an offensive on the Cylon homeworld, and go out barrels blazing.

That's an interesting point - I think they'll certainly keep it around long enough for Lee to confront the clubhouse mentality aboard the Pegasus, I hope at least long enough to see it properly kick some Cylon behind. That brief shot of it firing that salvo at the centre base ship looked amazing.

I really like the idea of an offensive on the Cylon homeworld - what if it turns out it's actually Earth?

Cag
February 19th, 2006, 10:16 PM
One of my favorite episodes so far this season. I guess they are right, the last episodes of this season is going to have us on the edge.

It was great watching Lee Adama take command of the Pegagus. It was stupid of Adama putting Garner in charge. There is a difference from being a engineer in the Engine room than a senior officer in the CIC. Like Lee said to his father, his wasn't good with people, that was his flaw.

I don't think that Col. Tigh would have been a good choice to take command of the Pegusus. Everybody over there got to know he is a drunk and a loser. If you will never get respect if your people don't have any reason to look at you with respect. I think they will be loyal to Lee Adama after he save their ass from being a statistic.

Also, I am starting to think that the navigation/dratus guy(forgot his name at this moment) is a damn Cylon. Adama asked him if anything is showing up on Dratus and I don't think he really looked at the screen and said No.

Here is my theory on the Raptor pilots. There was a Cylon on each ship and they shot the other person and then committed suicide.

Arnos
February 19th, 2006, 10:41 PM
I started to dislike the Dee/Lee thing, but then I actually remembered how long she's been trying to get his attention. It's been for Months- so in the afterthought of ALMOST losing a man you may have feelings for Twice, I could see how it appeared as though she "suddenly shacked up with him" (even though it has been at least a month since he's been shot in the last ep)
If there ever is a Kara/Lee thing- I'd feel THAT was forced. Sometimes, you can be Best Friends with a woman. And a thumb rub can just be a show of affection for a comrade- nothing more.

Anyways- I hope the Beast stays around longer. I was guessing that instead of destroying the Beast altogether- the writers would want to stay away from that "similarity with the old" by damaging it enough so that the Galactica was more powerful, and it would be delegated to fleet cargo.

Sagashi
February 19th, 2006, 10:46 PM
As for the people saying how Lee got promoted to Commander so quick, that can be referred to as a battlefield commission. Normally you have to have so much time in your rank and meet certian criteria before you can be considered for promotion. But in a wartime situation this is not always the case. The biggest example of this was during vietnam. I know my uncle jumped up 4 ranks to First Seargent in less than 18 months because of deaths in the command. Someone has to fill those slots and the senior person there is the one to usually do it.

I saw in the preview where Baltar was talking to Gina/6 where she told him he had to betray Roslin. Was this a deleted scene or did I just miss this scene somewhere because I don't remember seeing it.

I don't really think Baltar cares one way or the other about the abortion issue he just saw a situation he could use to his advantage and he grabbed it. He has Gina and Zarek in his pocket so he will definately have support to really make a run for President. I love the depth to Baltar and you always have to keep wondering what he is going to end up doing. I just have a feeling that he is going something that will suprise everyone, 6 included.

Darth_Bicyclist
February 20th, 2006, 12:00 AM
Wouldn't it make more sence for them to wait until they reached Earth to start to procreate again. Other wise they don't have very many resorces, and as it is the best thing is to have a healthy diet if you're pregnate. Living off of rations isn't a good thing for a woman who's going to have a baby. Nor is it good for the baby at the same time. Plus, it's likely that the birthrate will drop anyway, a person has to have a certain amount of body fat on their frame to have children. Living on half rations will mean that more and more women won't be able to have children as their weight decreases.

Well, exactly how they feed everyone is something the show doesn't really explain, but it doesn't seem like people are starving to death. (Maybe there's a Soylent Green kind of thing going on.) But rationing makes sense even if there's not an imminent food shortage. Presumably, though, the PTB would give more rations to pregnant women. And even if the Central Colonial People's Agriculture Committee didn't formally do so, hopefully the good side of human nature would kick in and people would spare some of their own rations for the pregnant lady in the next bunk. Or, if you prefer a darker theory, if they decide that procreation is paramount (as the Cylons themselves seem to have done), then it's logical that they would not give any food to anyone who is neither capable of procreation nor essential in some other way. Imagine a Logan's Run type of scenario where they can't be bothered to take care of the old people. Maybe the Cylons with their Baby Farms and Resurrection Ships are destined to win the evolutionary game anyway.

But I think the best answer to your question is given by Baltar himself in this very episode when he says that at the present rate, humanity will be extinct in 18 years. If Roslin was confident about finding Earth before then, it wouldn't matter. (If anything, it seems more likely to worry that the Cylons would defeat the Battlestars and wipe out the fleet in one swell foop rather than try to win some kind of demographic battle of attrition. Of course, we TV show viewers know that the Cylons Have a Plan, but most of the human characters on the show don't know that they have any plan other than to simply kill everyone quickly.)

So, it seems that they think it's going to take some time, perhaps several generations, to reach Earth. In which case, they can't wait to get there to start reproducing, especiallly since, as Admiral Adama notes, the number on the board rarely goes up.

I think we'll find that these themes are going to show up much more often in BSG.

FNH USA P90
February 20th, 2006, 12:39 AM
Anyone else wonder why TIGHE hasn't been given the Commander's chair of Pegasus? It will be interesting if this comes up in later episodes.

The last time Tigh was in command, civilians were killed by colonial soldiers, Apollo committed treason and freed Roslin, and eventually Roslin was able to divide the fleet. Not to mention that he lost the fleet and had to have Lt. Geata pull off a miracle at the expense of an implanted Cylon virus which came close to killing off Apollo, Hotdog, and Starbuck; and almost took over all of Galatica. Tigh's command can only be described one way, a disaster.

GateTrek2004
February 20th, 2006, 03:19 AM
I also wondered if the new abortion ruling applies to Cylon-Human hybrids. Does this mean that no one can interfere with Sharon's baby being born? Or do Colonial rights not apply to cylon prisoners?

I would think not only since they don;t consider cylons humans. but i have a strong feeling that sharon's baby will be Born either by the end of the season, or in the last 1 min of the final epsode with the big fat...TO BE CONTINUED!!! :)

Daggitrobot
February 20th, 2006, 06:50 AM
Regarding the "extinction of he human race in 18 years", I don't know if anyone has run the numbers, but if, assuming the abortion rate in the fleet is roughly that of the U.S. (it's hard to imagine with limited medical access it would be higher), in a population of 50k, making abortion illegal would net you about 150 extra kids/year, vs. an attrition rate of almost 2800 deaths/year (assuming a steady rate--realistically it would probably work out to a percentage of population loss--something over 20% of remaining population/year, or something more like 10000 deaths/year in the first year, so Rosalyn's number should be dropping a lot faster). Either way, by the time you're down to half the population, you're netting, less than 75 "extra" kids/year, and on down to the end. The upshot is that instead of extinction in 18 years it's 18 years and a few months, so those few extra births are almost meaningless. If the Battlestar writers want to play it this way, then I think we should see Rosalyn make a really tough decision, like making it illegal to NOT be pregnant if you're a woman of childbearing age, because it would take that to replace the population at that attrition rate.

ShadowMaat
February 20th, 2006, 09:44 AM
I'd be curious if Roslin had one of her people double-check Batar's numbers or if she just accepted them as fact.

Personally, I wouldn't put it past Baltar to fudge the numbers and/or lead her to believe things can be improved by banning abortion just to make himself look better when he steps forward to condemn her decision.

ArthurKing
February 20th, 2006, 10:14 AM
Regarding the "extinction of he human race in 18 years", I don't know if anyone has run the numbers, but if, assuming the abortion rate in the fleet is roughly that of the U.S. (it's hard to imagine with limited medical access it would be higher), in a population of 50k, making abortion illegal would net you about 150 extra kids/year, vs. an attrition rate of almost 2800 deaths/year (assuming a steady rate--realistically it would probably work out to a percentage of population loss--something over 20% of remaining population/year, or something more like 10000 deaths/year in the first year, so Rosalyn's number should be dropping a lot faster). Either way, by the time you're down to half the population, you're netting, less than 75 "extra" kids/year, and on down to the end. The upshot is that instead of extinction in 18 years it's 18 years and a few months, so those few extra births are almost meaningless. If the Battlestar writers want to play it this way, then I think we should see Rosalyn make a really tough decision, like making it illegal to NOT be pregnant if you're a woman of childbearing age, because it would take that to replace the population at that attrition rate.

Using data that I obtained freely from the CDC, I'm going to estimate deaths @ 10 per 1000 (higher than US, but not too much higher, to reflect the cancelling effects of both having a relatively more healthy and younger population and the fact that they are at war -- obviously, if a major catastrophe occurs -- the Pegasus is destroyed, these numbers all have to be adjusted); abortions @ 25 per 1000 pregnancies (around the historical norm, slightly decreased to reflect US trends in last decade), and pregnancies @ 125 per 1000 (slightly higher than US current of about 105, but not higher than rates in the 70s)

So, those are our independent variables. Now, our model will be:

A(T+1)=A(T)-(1/100)A(T)+(1/8)*A(T)/2-(1/40)*A(T)/2

Which reduces to A(T+1)=26A(T)/25

Yep, that's right: if the producers had actually sat down and done their homework, they would have realized that a group of 50,000, fairly parallely distributed (to a standard population), would have no problem continuing the human race.

This is all rather imprecise -- I've omitted a weighted distribution of the death rate to reflect the fact that elderly persons are much more likely to die than youthful ones, especially where it counts (read, the female population), although our distribution might be bimodal given the fact that they are at war. So, if anything this model slightly underpredicts, although, given the more liberal figures I used at onset, I'm hoping that the two balance eachother out. I'm also assuming a temporally uniform distribution of deaths.

In a 5 year period, without the prohibition on abortion:

T(0): 50,000
T(1): 52,000
T(2): 54,080
T(3): 56,243
T(4): 58,492
T(5); 60,831

Without abortion, our figure reduces to:

421A(T)/400

T(0): 50,000
T(1): 52,625
T(2): 55,387
T(3): 58,294
T(4): 61,354
T(5): 64,575

Two things emerge from this analysis:

1) The producers didn't pay attention to actual birth, death, and abortion figures: the population is, in fact, self-perpetuating, and, more than that, self-augmenting, even with abortion intact.

2) Having said that, outlawing abortion does make a large difference in the numbers of the fleet: In only a 5 year period, you've added almost 4,000 lives by prohibiting abortion.

Now, to conclude, let's say that someone would object: "You can't use US figures! The situations are totally different"

So, for the sake of argument, let's increase the death rate by 25% (12.5), cut the pregnancy rate by approx 25% (say 95 per 1000) and increase the abortion rate by 25% (32 per 1000)

Ultimately, A(T+1)=509A(T)/500

So, even in this case, the population is still self-perpetuating and indeed self-augmenting. However, it does become clear when we start considering more fantastic figures that abortion becomes a larger and larger potential pivot point between life and death.

entil2001
February 20th, 2006, 12:16 PM
Ron Moore wasn’t able to produce a podcast for this episode, which is unfortunate. I’ve found it educational to hear the perspective of the creative minds behind an episode after having seen it and evaluated it for myself. In this case, I enjoyed the episode for many reasons, despite a few things that gave me pause, and it would have been nice to hear what the writers were trying to achieve.

This episode served to remind me that time has been moving in leaps and bounds since the end of “Resurrection Ship: Part II”. This accelerated timeline helps to move some things along while retaining a certain degree of continuity. The writers wanted to bring the election issue to a head at the end of the season, and that needed to be about eight months after “Bastille Day”. That required a quick pace. Also, time had to pass for the Cylon fleet to regroup, send out scouts to find the human fleet, and then bring forces into position.

All of that makes sense to me, especially since it explains why so many internal issues have come to plague the Colonials of late. Decisions are catching up to people, and it’s creating a rift. There’s a growing distrust of the military and Roslin. There’s been a subsequent rise in power for Zarek. The past few episodes may have been flawed at times, but taken in context within the story arc, they set the pieces in place on the board.

One big issue has been the Pegasus, and that is at the center of this episode’s nightmare. Adama was placed in overall command of the military within the fleet by Roslin, which doesn’t necessarily demand the respect of Pegasus personnel. Garner is a mixture of a green command officer thrust into the spotlight too early and all the negativity regarding Galactica and Adama rampant among the Pegasus crew.

It’s far too early to tell if Lee is ready for command, but he demonstrated a sense of politics when he refused to speak ill of Garner, despite his enormous shortcomings. Garner’s end was somewhat cliché, but it was engaging to watch. The timeline ought to give the fleet enough time to repair Pegasus to a sufficient degree, but the real issue will be Lee’s command and how it plays to the underlying distrust of Adama within the fleet.

I found the abortion question in this episode to be perfectly sensible, and Roslyn was all but trapped by the issue. It gave Baltar the perfect opening, especially given the fact that Zarek had the perfect issue to champion (individual rights) as the power behind Baltar’s candidacy. Recalling that Baltar is in league with Gina, who may also be in league with Zarek, the finale could end with an effective coup. After all, the Cylons would benefit greatly from having Baltar in power, thus facilitating whatever their true objective might be.

That said, I was a little put off by how quickly Lee was promoted to command. For that matter, Starbuck was also placed in a command role too quickly, given her recent troubles. That’s a sign of the fleet’s desperation, sure, but it’s also a bit quick for my taste. And while I was impressed by the fact that the Gemenon religiosity demonstrated some disturbing aspects, I was annoyed that Roslin’s apparent prophet status didn’t come up. Still, those were minor issues for an otherwise strong episode.

grover
February 20th, 2006, 01:36 PM
I started to dislike the Dee/Lee thing, but then I actually remembered how long she's been trying to get his attention. It's been for Months- so in the afterthought of ALMOST losing a man you may have feelings for Twice, I could see how it appeared as though she "suddenly shacked up with him" (even though it has been at least a month since he's been shot in the last ep)
If there ever is a Kara/Lee thing- I'd feel THAT was forced. Sometimes, you can be Best Friends with a woman. And a thumb rub can just be a show of affection for a comrade- nothing more.

I agree in theory but there are a couple problems.

1) Kara screaming Lee's name while sleeping with Baltar. I'd say that indicates she wants to be more than friends with Lee.

2) You can be best friends with someone of the opposite gender. Problem is, the best way to end up in a long term relationship is to start out as freinds.

titans
February 20th, 2006, 04:15 PM
Off topic, but here I go:

Mike Myers
Norm MacDonald
Jim Carrey
Catherine O'Hara
Martin Short
Rick Moranis
John Candy
Eugene Levy
Michael J. Fox...etc. just to name a few who you might not have known were Canadian... ;)

Back on topic (I promise the above won't happen again), do you think the Pegasus is going to last through to season 3?

I have this feeling that they're going to save the Pegasus for an offensive on the Cylon homeworld, and go out barrels blazing.

Everytime I'm in Canada the only humor I'm privy too is Canadiens laughing at me when I try to order a coke...they giggle and say "It's called a pop eh" Then I mutter something under my breath about nuking Quebec and leave. Or in Vancouver they seem to laugh at everything...I think it has something to do with the large amount of hippies there (I hate hippies) But Canada'a a beautiful place. Wish every time I went to a Leafs game I didn't have to spend half the game waiting in line for th bathroom...and speaking of Canada...what is the deal with all the strip clubs in Montreal?? My god!! Is that all they do up there??

...what were we talking about?

mudguts
February 20th, 2006, 06:59 PM
I would think not only since they don;t consider cylons humans. but i have a strong feeling that sharon's baby will be Born either by the end of the season, or in the last 1 min of the final epsode with the big fat...TO BE CONTINUED!!! :)

I can definitely see that happening, with the obgyn pulling his mask down to reveal a grimace that could only be the result of glimpsing unspeakable horror.

Of course, this was done very effectively in V - the whole flick of the reptilian tongue must be one of the greatest moments in televisual history. Maybe she'll give birth to a Cylon... pilot!

mudguts
February 20th, 2006, 07:03 PM
Tigh's command can only be described one way, a disaster.

Which would make for far more interesting viewing than the tight ship Lee's probably keen on creating. With Tigh in command BSG would become like Beavis and Butthead meets the West Wing in space.

Scooteristi
February 20th, 2006, 11:41 PM
I'm still having a little bit of a hard time dealing with the fact that Lee went from Captain to Commander in the span of one ep. It boggles the mind.


As for the people saying how Lee got promoted to Commander so quick, that can be referred to as a battlefield commission. Normally you have to have so much time in your rank and meet certian criteria before you can be considered for promotion. But in a wartime situation this is not always the case. The biggest example of this was during vietnam. I know my uncle jumped up 4 ranks to First Seargent in less than 18 months because of deaths in the command. Someone has to fill those slots and the senior person there is the one to usually do it.

The most astonishing promotion of all was that of George Armstrong Custer, who (along with two captains), three days before the battle of Gettysburg, was promoted from First Lieutenant to Brigadier General, no intervening promotions necessary.

Scooteristi
February 20th, 2006, 11:44 PM
here I go:Mike Myers, Norm MacDonald, Jim Carrey, Catherine O'Hara, Martin Short, Rick Moranis, John Candy, Eugene Levy, Michael J. Fox

You forgot the most important one of all: SHATNER :jonas12:

thebiggfrogg
February 21st, 2006, 03:51 AM
Good episode. The promotion of Apollo to Commander caught me off guard - didn't see it coming. I loved the battle scenes. Just enough to get a feel for it, but also not enough to put the show over budget.

One thing though: The parallel of the fleet's political situations (the abortion issue, the "we're losing our rights and becoming ike the Cylons/terrorists" stuff) soured me on the writing of this episode. The struggle for political power in the fleet could have taken a different and much more intelligent path rather than taking a rehashed present day pro- or anti- choice/Iraq War rhetoric story line. I understand why it was written like it was, but I just want to be entertained.

Note to Ronald Moore: You are SO much more intelligent than the typical Hollywood crowd. You don't need to get into the present day "Republican vs. Democrat" Patriot Act debate with this series. I am probably like a lot of the people watching the show. I need an escape from the political climate of the day. Battlestar Galactica provided that for me - until tonight.

PLEASE don't let me have to watch the news at 6 and then have to hear it all again at 10:00.

Just a thought!
I love the political stuff in Galactica. There isn't enough thougtful stuff on TV and the stuff that passes (West Wing--gag) is naive. Galactica takes an interesting look at political and philsophical issues explores its characters and is entertaining. I hope it continues on all fronts. If I want pure escapism I will watch Star Wars. If I want intelligent escapism that makes me think I will watch Galactica. Keep it up, Ron Moore.

tony
February 21st, 2006, 05:49 AM
Using data that I obtained freely from the CDC, I'm going to estimate deaths @ 10 per 1000 (higher than US, but not too much higher, to reflect the cancelling effects of both having a relatively more healthy and younger population and the fact that they are at war -- obviously, if a major catastrophe occurs -- the Pegasus is destroyed, these numbers all have to be adjusted); abortions @ 25 per 1000 pregnancies (around the historical norm, slightly decreased to reflect US trends in last decade), and pregnancies @ 125 per 1000 (slightly higher than US current of about 105, but not higher than rates in the 70s)

So, those are our independent variables. Now, our model will be:

A(T+1)=A(T)-(1/100)A(T)+(1/8)*A(T)/2-(1/40)*A(T)/2

Which reduces to A(T+1)=26A(T)/25

Yep, that's right: if the producers had actually sat down and done their homework, they would have realized that a group of 50,000, fairly parallely distributed (to a standard population), would have no problem continuing the human race.

This is all rather imprecise -- I've omitted a weighted distribution of the death rate to reflect the fact that elderly persons are much more likely to die than youthful ones, especially where it counts (read, the female population), although our distribution might be bimodal given the fact that they are at war. So, if anything this model slightly underpredicts, although, given the more liberal figures I used at onset, I'm hoping that the two balance eachother out. I'm also assuming a temporally uniform distribution of deaths.

In a 5 year period, without the prohibition on abortion:

T(0): 50,000
T(1): 52,000
T(2): 54,080
T(3): 56,243
T(4): 58,492
T(5); 60,831

Without abortion, our figure reduces to:

421A(T)/400

T(0): 50,000
T(1): 52,625
T(2): 55,387
T(3): 58,294
T(4): 61,354
T(5): 64,575

Two things emerge from this analysis:

1) The producers didn't pay attention to actual birth, death, and abortion figures: the population is, in fact, self-perpetuating, and, more than that, self-augmenting, even with abortion intact.

2) Having said that, outlawing abortion does make a large difference in the numbers of the fleet: In only a 5 year period, you've added almost 4,000 lives by prohibiting abortion.

Now, to conclude, let's say that someone would object: "You can't use US figures! The situations are totally different"

So, for the sake of argument, let's increase the death rate by 25% (12.5), cut the pregnancy rate by approx 25% (say 95 per 1000) and increase the abortion rate by 25% (32 per 1000)

Ultimately, A(T+1)=509A(T)/500

So, even in this case, the population is still self-perpetuating and indeed self-augmenting. However, it does become clear when we start considering more fantastic figures that abortion becomes a larger and larger potential pivot point between life and death.


Dood I just had to seriously take a Advil reading this.... Homework or no Homework it still makes for a good story :) :)

Carewolf
February 21st, 2006, 06:08 AM
I don't think the abortion question makes any sense.

Even with todays medical advances we recently invented implants that works like the pill, but without the problem of remembering to take it and the implant can easily be removed again.

The number of abortions in any educated advanced population os irrelevant to the repopulation. In the BG world unvanted pregnancies are probably limited to the Gemini people who might lack the sexual education to use contraceptions.

If Roslins arguments should go anywhere she should outlow contraceptions, especially advanced hormone based ones. Then again this would have a severe impact on all the military female personal as well.

yaaayoubetcha
February 21st, 2006, 07:27 AM
Maybe there's a Soylent Green kind of thing going on.

I have visions of Sharron running around the Galactica shouting: "it's cylons!! soylent green is cylons!!"

KatG
February 21st, 2006, 10:07 AM
Anyone else wonder why TIGHE hasn't been given the Commander's chair of Pegasus? It will be interesting if this comes up in later episodes.

Most likely because he screwed it up so badly when Adama was shot and out of commission. He (Tigh) even said he wasn't cut out for commander nor had he ever wanted to be.

KatG
February 21st, 2006, 10:23 AM
. In my opinion I believe that some viewers would be much happier is Dee was a Caucasian female from Aerelon.

Wow! What an assumption to make. I've read through the whole thread and no one who has said they were against the Dee/Lee relationship ever once mentioned race. For the most part, everyone really seemed to like Dee/Billy and Billy was definitely Caucasian, so I kind of think you're statement falls flat based on that fact alone.

I think what was jarring to me, and maybe to most people is that it seemed really fast. Yes there was a mention of it having been a month since Billy's death and the last episode, but to me opening on Dee/Lee as it did, didn't give the impression that much time had passed. If maybe we had some other scenes first, putting us in the mind frame that time had passed it might have been easier to swallow. Still, a month might seem a bit too soon for some. *shrugs*

While I much prefer Lee/Kara, Lee taking up with Dee isn't a problem at the moment. I mean Kara keeps throwing Anders in his face, so why wouldn't he look elsewhere. I don't think Lee/Dee will last, but I think she's a nice diversion for him at the moment.

KatG
February 21st, 2006, 10:27 AM
Now to my thoughts on the episode:

I really liked this episode. Very engaging and very gripping. After last week's yawn fest, it was quite refreshing.

Loved seeing Kara "acting out", but also glad to see her more back to normal there at the end.

Liked the Kara/Lee interaction. Glad to see he doesn't mind taking her down a notch when she needs it. I'm also glad to see the friendship back by the end.

I had no problem with Lee being made commander. He did a fantastic job saving the Pegasus, he kept his head and made good decisions. He deserved it, and in wartime, promotions happen fast, especially if you have a small number of qualified people.

Looking forward to next week's episode. Looks like Boomer's back and she's not happy. :)

Othere
February 21st, 2006, 10:29 AM
Easy, they have a very limited pool of qualified people to choose from due to the rest of the fleet being dead and all. Fast promotions like that weren't unheard of during WW2 when they had a similar manpower shortage, so I don't see how Apollo's promotion is such a big deal. The only other officer left more senior than Apollo is probably Colonel Tigh and he wasn't very well recieved when he was temporarily in command of Galactica, which is probably why he didn't get or want command of Pegasus, hence Apollo got offered the position, hence Apollo got "promoted twice".

Actually, this had me thinking the other day. What are the odds of two battlestars surviving the holocaust?
And what are the odds of a few more random battlestars also surviving? I know it would probably be an almost impossible task to locate any other survivors, but there has to be more. If the current fleet under Adama is 59,000 (give or take) and there were 12 colonies, there has to be a number of survivors elsewhere (assuming they have managed to hide/survive this long). If not, it would appear that the gods are certainly smiling on the very few...

Othere
February 21st, 2006, 10:47 AM
What's with the Admiral?! Why did he put Lee in command of the Pegasus? Because he knows some tactics? He knows very little about commanding. Even Garner knew more! Would Lee sacrifice his life to save Pegasus? I doubt it. From episode to episode I hate Apollo more and more. The old man has lost his mind or what?! A flyboy in command? Worser than an engineer if you ask me. And how the hell got flyboy Adama promoted two time in a couple of weeks?! And WHY?! Why wouldn't the Admiral put Tigh in command instead? He has the ability to command a BS with discipline and Pegasus could adapt very fast to it because Cain was like that too. A flyboy in command? Right. Now that's what I call out of the box thinking. Well, it's light years from the box in this case. What will come next? Apollo will candidate for the presidency? Oh, I know: In the next episode (Downloaded) he will be revealed as God and he will lead the fleet to salvation. I hope the Pegasus will be destroyed pretty soon when Lee "God" Adama will be on board.

Because Tigh already frakked up when he was in command. Tigh doesn't want command - we see this in his flashbacks at the beginning of S02 - as much as he can do the job, he still wants someone to lead him.
He cocks up in Fragged and as a result he indirectly has civilian deaths on his hands. Tight is simply not cut out for command - not in a high risk, dangerous position like th eone that they are in.

Lee has proved that he can do the job - he understand the pilots, and he understands orders and he is passionate and compassionate.
Despite the friction beween G and P crews, the men (and women) in Pegasus CIC looke dto him to get them out of the mess their former commander got them into. Lee has a levelhead (though i think he needs Kara to give him a hand at times) and as such does seem perfect for the job - of course, we dont know the Peg crew very weel at all so we dont know if there are any appropriate candidates. From what we have seen, it appears not - the pilots aren't interested, and the CIC crew seem a little hesitant.
Also, it has been proven thusfar, with the whole 'Us and them' thang, that the officers of the Peg can not be trusted with orders - so perhaps that is Adama's reasoning for putting one of his own in as Commander - so that when he gives and order (ie: DO NOT jump it's a trap) it will be carried out.
OTOH maybe he is just trying to break up the Lee/Dee thing with any luck;)

As for promotions - it is a time of war and it is common for battlefield promotions to be given out as and when needed. It is often the case that some rise quicker than others in wartime through their actions when a vacancy materialises.

apollo123
February 21st, 2006, 11:14 AM
That was so weak! He's the Commander for gods sake! He can't be running off in the middle of a HUGE battle! WEAK!! Even though he was marked for death the minute he was given the Red Shirt of Pegasus command and I saw it coming a mile away, I was still glad to see him go! Sissy. Actually made Lee look like a man in comparison!

Maybe "weak", but if he hadn't run off like that, Pegasus probably would've been destroyed. He knew that the only way to fix the problem was if he went down there and fixed it himself. So yeah, he showed that he was a horrible leader but he was a great engineer (and a brave one), which I think was the point.

apollo123
February 21st, 2006, 11:36 AM
WOW this was a nice surprise after the last few so-so episodes, which I didn't hate but they definitely felt subpar by BSG standards. This was an outstanding episode, probably one of the best of the series.

I loved the battle sequence at the end - very exciting. Pegasus loses another commander OUCH!

I loved the Lee/Starbuck conflict and (kinda) resolution. I just think they do such a great job with their love/hate relationship. They are infinitely more interesting than their original counterparts.

I loved the political aspects of the episode, which was certainly due. I was wondering when they were going to bring up the issue of Roslin being reelected. It makes you realize once again that this isn't Star Trek. These people are real and have the same problems we do. Abortion - WOW. When was the last time a sci-fi show tackled that issue? And not as an allegory either!

One complaint - while I thought Roslin's decision was warranted in some ways, I wish there was more insight into how she made that decision. I could think of a lot of other options she could've went with other than outlawing abortion completely. What about giving women incentive to have children? There are probably a lot of women who *do* want to have children, but may not have the means to do it. Wouldn't it better to give these women the opportunity to have children rather than force women to have children, who will probably end up being unwanted and mistreated?

ShadowMaat
February 21st, 2006, 04:05 PM
For the most part, everyone really seemed to like Dee/Billy and Billy was definitely Caucasian, so I kind of think you're statement falls flat based on that fact alone.
Good point. I never even thought of that, but I'm very much a Dee/Billy shipper. ;) In fact, Dee/Billy and Helo/Boomer are the only ships I really support and both are "mixed race" if you want to degrade the relationships to that base a level. :P

apollo123
February 21st, 2006, 05:09 PM
Wow! What an assumption to make. I've read through the whole thread and no one who has said they were against the Dee/Lee relationship ever once mentioned race. For the most part, everyone really seemed to like Dee/Billy and Billy was definitely Caucasian, so I kind of think you're statement falls flat based on that fact alone.


While I agree with you that people's hatred of the Dee/Lee relationship (at least people on this forum) have nothing to do with her race, I dont think your arguments have much merit (sorry).

First of all, people who are racist aren't going to say that they are, especially on a forum like this. If I were against the Dee/Lee relationship because she's black, I'm not going outright say it. So the fact that "no one mentioned race" doesn't prove anything.

Also, just because people were OK with Dee/Billy doesn't really prove anything either. Billy was a side character and thus her relationship with him was primarily a minor subplot. Now that she's with Lee, their relationship will be in the forefront. You can have minority characters on the side, but when they start taking up the main storyline, watch out!

Another thing is Lee is represents the show's primary male sex symbol and thus the object of most (yes white) women's fantasies. So the fact he's with a black woman might irk some more than when Billy was with her - Billy being not as much of a "hot commodity". It's the same reason why people in the 70's were so upset when Uhura kissed Kirk, but not so much when she kissed Spock.

Again, I don't think that the people of this forum are against the relationship because Dee is black. But I do think your reasons for why race can't possibly be a factor is both flawed and a bit naive.

KatG
February 21st, 2006, 06:02 PM
While I agree with you that people's hatred of the Dee/Lee relationship (at least people on this forum) have nothing to do with her race, I dont think your arguments have much merit (sorry).

First of all, people who are racist aren't going to say that they are, especially on a forum like this. If I were against the Dee/Lee relationship because she's black, I'm not going outright say it. So the fact that "no one mentioned race" doesn't prove anything.

Also, just because people were OK with Dee/Billy doesn't really prove anything either. Billy was a side character and thus her relationship with him was primarily a minor subplot. Now that she's with Lee, their relationship will be in the forefront. You can have minority characters on the side, but when they start taking up the main storyline, watch out!

Another thing is Lee is represents the show's primary male sex symbol and thus the object of most (yes white) women's fantasies. So the fact he's with a black woman might irk some more than when Billy was with her - Billy being not as much of a "hot commodity". It's the same reason why people in the 70's were so upset when Uhura kissed Kirk, but not so much when she kissed Spock.

Again, I don't think that the people of this forum are against the relationship because Dee is black. But I do think your reasons for why race can't possibly be a factor is both flawed and a bit naive.

We still have no facts whatsoever to support a "racist" argument. All we have is that Lee is white and Dee is black. Nothing else. No one saying "I can't believe Lee is frakin' a black woman". No one saying "blacks and whites shouldn't intermingle/have relationships". Nothing, nada, zip. All we have is people saying they don't like Lee/Dee. There could be many reasons, and while race could be one, no one has said it or even implied it, except the poster who originally said it had to be a race issue.

We do however have evidence that race is not an issue. We have Sharon/Helo, Boomer/Chief, and Dee/Billy. No one has said they have a problem with it. So why would people have a problem with Dee/Lee as far as race is concerned just because Lee is the lead.

THSEX1138
February 21st, 2006, 06:45 PM
We still have no facts whatsoever to support a "racist" argument. All we have is that Lee is white and Dee is black. Nothing else. No one saying "I can't believe Lee is frakin' a black woman". No one saying "blacks and whites shouldn't intermingle/have relationships". Nothing, nada, zip. All we have is people saying they don't like Lee/Dee. There could be many reasons, and while race could be one, no one has said it or even implied it, except the poster who originally said it had to be a race issue.

We do however have evidence that race is not an issue. We have Sharon/Helo, Boomer/Chief, and Dee/Billy. No one has said they have a problem with it. So why would people have a problem with Dee/Lee as far as race is concerned just because Lee is the lead.

Please check your DRADIS! DEE pulsar must be affecting your display. I am DEE original poster and I can't see on my scope where I stated that this " had to be a race issue." If you send 2 Raptors and make an FTL jump far away from the pulsar to Page 6, Mark#103 your monitors should all be free of interference.

PS. If DEE Raptors receive a distress signal when they get there please tell them to ignore it...trust me.

ShadowMaat
February 21st, 2006, 07:15 PM
I think most of us can agree that the "racist" card is, from the perspective of most, complete and utter BS. If someone wants to keep believing that, nothing any of us says is likely to change that opinion, especially since we're all a bunch of racists who would naturally deny being anything of the sort. It's a closed loop. There's no escape. *shrug*

Speaking for myself, I find Lee to be a stuck up priss, and while I can, at times, appreciate his physical beauty (confined almost entirely to the infamous Towel Scene), my tastes generally run a bit... different. *shrug* I tend to avoid the lead males on general principles, anyway. Helo, on the other hand... *ahem* But I digress.

I'll be interested to see how Lee integrates into the Pegasus command structure. And it'll be nice if he falls on his ass and screws up a lot, too. But that's probably just the sadist in me. ;)

I wish we could have heard those scraps of details about Buster and the other missing Raptor pilots, even if it ultimately served no purpose. *sigh* But that's definitely the thunker in me. :D

KatG
February 21st, 2006, 07:43 PM
Please check your DRADIS! DEE pulsar must be affecting your display. I am DEE original poster and I can't see on my scope where I stated that this " had to be a race issue." If you send 2 Raptors and make an FTL jump far away from the pulsar to Page 6, Mark#103 your monitors should all be free of interference.

PS. If DEE Raptors receive a distress signal when they get there please tell them to ignore it...trust me.

Whatever. :rolleyes:

Rhubi
February 21st, 2006, 08:58 PM
This is my first time posting in this forum. So far I love the discussion and decided that I would add my input to the already dicey topic of race.

I figure I should say up front that I am a white female. And I do think Apollo is attractive (err hot.) The L/D relationship did come out of no where but it is actually growing on me.

Now onto the race topic [cringe.] I can see how at first glance the dislike of L/D could be construed as slightly racist. I have found that most of the people who like sci fi are fairly open minded. (I have to concede that I am very liberal and so probably most people I know are as such.) When watching sci fi you get to see a wonderful glimpse of what the world would be like without many of our prejudices. I believe that is the reason that most people love watching sci fi and especially BSG. So I do not believe that the people here dislike L/D just because of the race factor. With that said I do like that an opinion was stated and there is a lot of great discussion. That is what this forum and RDM's BSG is all about!

Gunslinger
February 22nd, 2006, 02:09 AM
Also, just because people were OK with Dee/Billy doesn't really prove anything either. Billy was a side character and thus her relationship with him was primarily a minor subplot. Now that she's with Lee, their relationship will be in the forefront. You can have minority characters on the side, but when they start taking up the main storyline, watch out!

This is the only part of your argument that makes sense or has any merit. It is not true for me personally, I was always hoping for more Dee/Billy onscreen (as well at Geata!) The way BSG handles the "secondary" main characters is awesome.

Back OT Lee/Dee just aren't right for each other at all. The romance was not set up at all, one episode BOOM they're suddenly making out while sparring, while Dee is currently seeing Billy no less.

With Billy they built up to their romance, and when she first kissed him it made sense with the overall plot of everyone missing all the friends they'd lost. I always found it so cute how Dee would try to protect Billy because she's military, but Billy would try to protect Dee, because he feels like he should be more macho.

Anyways, for the record I think that Dee is the hottest woman on the show.

-A caucasian

GateTrek2004
February 22nd, 2006, 03:04 AM
I can definitely see that happening, with the obgyn pulling his mask down to reveal a grimace that could only be the result of glimpsing unspeakable horror.

Of course, this was done very effectively in V - the whole flick of the reptilian tongue must be one of the greatest moments in televisual history. Maybe she'll give birth to a Cylon... pilot!

downloaded spoilers
I don;t know how to do the spoilers thing to hide something but since i don;t know how, if you have seen the upcoming photos of downloaded, SHARON GIVES BIRTH!!!. and it also looks like baltar was with a sharon model, a six model and a beers model!

ShadowMaat
February 22nd, 2006, 04:36 AM
Thank you for utterly destroying that plot point for me, Gate. :mad: There are these things called SPOILER WARNINGS. You might want to try figuring out what they are before you post again.

Just because there are pics or info located "somewhere" on the internet doesn't mean that they're common knowledge and it doesn't mean that EVERYONE automatically knows or wants to know what's in them. Amazingly enough, some people still actually like to be SURPRISED when they watch a show.

Skydiver
February 22nd, 2006, 05:13 AM
I second what shadow has said. I've now been spoiled for this friday's episode.

thanks so much.

Ladies and Gents, I do ask folks to please refresh their knowledge of the spoiler rules. Anything that hasn't been seen in us syndication needs to be marked wtih spoiler warnings, this ESPECIALLY applies to upcoming, unaired episodes

Daggitrobot
February 22nd, 2006, 06:12 AM
Using data that I obtained freely from the CDC, I'm going to estimate deaths @ 10 per 1000 (higher than US, but not too much higher, to reflect the cancelling effects of both having a relatively more healthy and younger population and the fact that they are at war -- obviously, if a major catastrophe occurs -- the Pegasus is destroyed, these numbers all have to be adjusted); abortions @ 25 per 1000 pregnancies (around the historical norm, slightly decreased to reflect US trends in last decade), and pregnancies @ 125 per 1000 (slightly higher than US current of about 105, but not higher than rates in the 70s)

So, those are our independent variables. Now, our model will be:

A(T+1)=A(T)-(1/100)A(T)+(1/8)*A(T)/2-(1/40)*A(T)/2

Which reduces to A(T+1)=26A(T)/25

Yep, that's right: if the producers had actually sat down and done their homework, they would have realized that a group of 50,000, fairly parallely distributed (to a standard population), would have no problem continuing the human race.

This is all rather imprecise -- I've omitted a weighted distribution of the death rate to reflect the fact that elderly persons are much more likely to die than youthful ones, especially where it counts (read, the female population), although our distribution might be bimodal given the fact that they are at war. So, if anything this model slightly underpredicts, although, given the more liberal figures I used at onset, I'm hoping that the two balance eachother out. I'm also assuming a temporally uniform distribution of deaths.

In a 5 year period, without the prohibition on abortion:

T(0): 50,000
T(1): 52,000
T(2): 54,080
T(3): 56,243
T(4): 58,492
T(5); 60,831

Without abortion, our figure reduces to:

421A(T)/400

T(0): 50,000
T(1): 52,625
T(2): 55,387
T(3): 58,294
T(4): 61,354
T(5): 64,575

Two things emerge from this analysis:

1) The producers didn't pay attention to actual birth, death, and abortion figures: the population is, in fact, self-perpetuating, and, more than that, self-augmenting, even with abortion intact.

2) Having said that, outlawing abortion does make a large difference in the numbers of the fleet: In only a 5 year period, you've added almost 4,000 lives by prohibiting abortion.

Now, to conclude, let's say that someone would object: "You can't use US figures! The situations are totally different"

So, for the sake of argument, let's increase the death rate by 25% (12.5), cut the pregnancy rate by approx 25% (say 95 per 1000) and increase the abortion rate by 25% (32 per 1000)

Ultimately, A(T+1)=509A(T)/500

So, even in this case, the population is still self-perpetuating and indeed self-augmenting. However, it does become clear when we start considering more fantastic figures that abortion becomes a larger and larger potential pivot point between life and death.

Thanks for adding to this discussion, ArthurKing--your numbers highlight what the expected numbers for this population would be under relatively normal circumstances. My earlier point, however, was to illustrate how dire "extinction in 18 years" would really be, and how little difference simply outlawing abortion in this scenario would make. That kind of attrition--to get to zero in 18 years--would require, rather than 10 deaths/1000, something more like 56 to 200 deaths/1000 (depending on whether you go with a steady-number decline, or a percentage of population decline--I'd like to see your numbers run again to show what it would take to get to zero in 18 years, which is the scenario BG is working with) in which case, with a decreasing population (and one that presumably is already procreating yet declining anyway) the number of abortions falls with the declining population, you don't get 4000 extra births, but much less than that. In any case, it would come nowhere near to fixing the problem and would put off extinction by a couple months at best. Not to mention that--assuming that the high death rate in BG is due mostly to adults being killed fighting cylons or in dangerous jobs, after about 11 or 12 years, the fleet would consist mostly of children.

apollo123
February 22nd, 2006, 08:21 AM
We still have no facts whatsoever to support a "racist" argument. All we have is that Lee is white and Dee is black. Nothing else. No one saying "I can't believe Lee is frakin' a black woman". No one saying "blacks and whites shouldn't intermingle/have relationships". Nothing, nada, zip. All we have is people saying they don't like Lee/Dee. There could be many reasons, and while race could be one, no one has said it or even implied it, except the poster who originally said it had to be a race issue.

We do however have evidence that race is not an issue. We have Sharon/Helo, Boomer/Chief, and Dee/Billy. No one has said they have a problem with it. So why would people have a problem with Dee/Lee as far as race is concerned just because Lee is the lead.

OH MY GOD, did you read my post? I agree with you that no one on this forum is racist or that race is the reason why people don't like Dee/Lee! I said that twice in my post, or did you choose not to read that?

The point of my post was to say that your reasons as to why it can't be an issue were poor ones. You said that "no one mentioned race" as being a reason why people aren't racist, which again doesn't show anything other than that peole might not like to showcase their racism. You also mention that because people like Dee/Billy that they *must* not be racist, which is also a naive statement. For example, do you think it's possible that someone would be completely fine seeing interracial couples on the street but not be fine when one of the poeple involved in that interracial relationship is their daughter or son? Being fine with one interracial couple doesn't mean that you would be fine with all couples and it certainly doesn't mean that you don't have other issues when it comes to race.

On a side note, why is it that we can't talk about race without people suddenly reacting with - don't call me a racist! I never accused *anyone* of being racist and I certainly don't think that *you* are a racist. But I do think that people should think harder sometimes when it comes to race and how people perceive each other. It's not always that simple.

apollo123
February 22nd, 2006, 09:50 AM
I think most of us can agree that the "racist" card is, from the perspective of most, complete and utter BS.

No one, I repeat, no one ever accused anyone of being "racist". There was, however, an implication that race had something to do with how people percieved the Dee/Lee relationship. Is it possible that Dee's race influenced people's reactions to her? Or do you think people are completely color blind and don't see race at all? That race can't *possibly* play a role in people's reactions and opinions? Sorry but this is real world, this is not Star Trek. And to call any discussion on race "utter BS" is one of the reasons why we as a society will never embody that Star Trek vision.

Now as far as the original poster is concerned, did I think that his comments were a bit unwarranted? Yes, I do. I think that he was jumping to the wrong conclusions and didn't have a whole lot of basis for his blanket statement. However, I never defended his comments. I only refuted KatG's rebuttal, which I thought was short sighted and naive. If you saw an accusation of "racism" in this, then you really need to ask yourself why that is.

ShadowMaat
February 22nd, 2006, 10:33 AM
I don't recall quoting you in my post, Apollo, nor do I recall implying that my reply was in direct reference to you. I was replying to the general attitude on the thread in reaction to the initial poster's comment dismissing all opinions about Lee/Dee as being an objection to the color of Dee's skin. I wonder if folks would have reacted differently if the implication had been that people objected to the color of Lee's skin. But that's a digression probably best saved for another topic. Or ignored completely.

This is a discussion thread for Captain's Hand, not a place to hash out race relations and interpersonal disputes.

I liked the ep. I had a bad feeling the Raptor crews were toast as soon as they disappeared off DRADIS, but I still managed to hope things would work out until we saw the ships just hanging there in space. *sigh*

Lee remained calm under pressure, something that Tigh, when HE was in command, couldn't manage. While I may have serious issues with the character of Lee (and not because he's white), I think he did a good job in this ep, and even his b****iness with Kara seemed to work, as did the later apology and hand-holding scene (although I did roll my eyes at it, being as anti Lee/Kara as I am anti Lee/Dee).

Next week's ep should be interesting, even though the major plot point of it has been ruined for me, I'm still curious to see how it'll all work out, and I look forward to the different perspective.

apollo123
February 22nd, 2006, 11:10 AM
This is a discussion thread for Captain's Hand, not a place to hash out race relations and interpersonal disputes.


You're right, we should be talking about Captain's Hand, but when people make statements that you disagree with, there's nothing wrong with refutting their statments. This being afterall a discussion. I would love to move away from this topic and it sounds like you do too, which is why I find it curious that you had put in one last "jab":



I wonder if folks would have reacted differently if the implication had been that people objected to the color of Lee's skin.


If you really did not want to discuss this, then stop discussing it. Leave it be, like you said, ignore it. Don't throw out a statement like that, get your point across and then tell everyone - ok i'm done, you should be too.

There are so many thing wrong with that statement that I don't even know where to begin. But basically most of the people who watch BSG are white as well as most of the people on this forum. If someone were to suggest that people were objecting to Lee's skin color, it would be completely ridiculous and you know it. Your analogy is so ludicrous and irrelevant that I feel stupid even responding to it.

ShadowMaat
February 22nd, 2006, 12:51 PM
I've started a thread to discuss race issues

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=24618

KatG
February 22nd, 2006, 01:40 PM
There are so many thing wrong with that statement that I don't even know where to begin.

And there are so many things wrong with what you just said, but I'll stick to the spirit of this thread and take it over to the new one Shadow started. You might want to go here
http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost.php?p=4961344&postcount=10 as that where I've quoted you and responded.

Scooteristi
February 22nd, 2006, 10:06 PM
while I thought Roslin's decision was warranted in some ways, I wish there was more insight into how she made that decision. I could think of a lot of other options she could've went with other than outlawing abortion completely. What about giving women incentive to have children? There are probably a lot of women who *do* want to have children, but may not have the means to do it. Wouldn't it better to give these women the opportunity to have children rather than force women to have children, who will probably end up being unwanted and mistreated?

You need insight? Just look at the emotion-based, unthinking way that our Congress passes laws. Consider that all of six Congressmen and Senators had read the original Patriot Act before it was passed, "Ohh 9/11, gotta pass this."

Roslin made a gut call. There was no thought there.

Scooteristi
February 22nd, 2006, 10:12 PM
The romance was not set up at all, one episode BOOM they're suddenly making out while sparring, while Dee is currently seeing Billy no less.

It's not a romance! They are f---ing one another. I don't think Billy ever had the manhood to just f--- Dee.

Plus two episodes before Lee and Dee kissed they were making eyes at one another. That subplot was telegraphed.


Anyways, for the record I think that Dee is the hottest woman on the show.

You are correct sir.

But I wouldn't kick #6, Sharon, or Kat outta my bed either.

Othere
February 22nd, 2006, 11:09 PM
But I wouldn't kick #6, Sharon, or Kat outta my bed either.

Kat!!
I'd boot her out of the airlock!
;)

Lady Snow
February 22nd, 2006, 11:19 PM
And truth be told, I can't really blame Dee for being attracted to Apollo either.

voigtstr
February 23rd, 2006, 03:12 PM
Awesome episode. Loved the battle scenes and Apollo is getting much more interesting to watch.

I am very glad that Dee's spine didn't glow red in the first scene, she is definitely not interesting enough to be a Cylon. Hope she isn't pregnant now. That would be yet another big wedge between Kara and Lee.

I also liked the idea of abortion rights dividing the fleet prior to the elections. It fits nicely with the Sharon/Helo story. Good twist to make Baltar run on a pro-choice platform and Roslin a pro-life one after Epiphanies (when Roslin tried to abort Sharon's baby and Baltar fought to save it's life.)

Baltar is becoming deliciously evil. Great character development. I wondered in the mini-series how long it would take me to truly hate him. It is getting close...

I think their spines only glow when they conceive... going back to the mini series.. perhaps 6 was meeting another 6 to swap over so that a non-impregnated 6 could stay with Baltar and the other 6 could go somewhere safe and see if the embryo would take hold..

I still think Dee is a cylon, I simply think that there is not enough love between Dee and Apollo for conception to occur (wacky cylon biology)

Hoodwink
February 23rd, 2006, 03:19 PM
Can't beleive I'm going to pile on this subject, but here it goes....

IMO- I think the hesitation from people with the whole Dee/Lee thing is not from race. God no. I think it comes from a subliminal feeling the audience has with Lee, and that maybe one day he should be with Kera.
As with the old tv show Cheers, when the main characters were with others, it never felt right, but helped in the tension that helped them get together later. ( and in turn hurt the show in my opinion)
So I hope they never really get together (Lee and Kera) and their flings just add to the feelings they really feel but may never happen.

Now, back to reading about frack'n action scenes and frackn' special effects.

voigtstr
February 23rd, 2006, 04:12 PM
One of my favorite episodes so far this season. I guess they are right, the last episodes of this season is going to have us on the edge.

It was great watching Lee Adama take command of the Pegagus. It was stupid of Adama putting Garner in charge. There is a difference from being a engineer in the Engine room than a senior officer in the CIC. Like Lee said to his father, his wasn't good with people, that was his flaw.

I don't think that Col. Tigh would have been a good choice to take command of the Pegusus. Everybody over there got to know he is a drunk and a loser. If you will never get respect if your people don't have any reason to look at you with respect. I think they will be loyal to Lee Adama after he save their ass from being a statistic.

Also, I am starting to think that the navigation/dratus guy(forgot his name at this moment) is a damn Cylon. Adama asked him if anything is showing up on Dratus and I don't think he really looked at the screen and said No.

Here is my theory on the Raptor pilots. There was a Cylon on each ship and they shot the other person and then committed suicide.

Cylons wont kill themselves as its an afront to God. They'll take a suicide mission as long as someone else is pulling the trigger though.

voigtstr
February 23rd, 2006, 04:43 PM
I can definitely see that happening, with the obgyn pulling his mask down to reveal a grimace that could only be the result of glimpsing unspeakable horror.

Of course, this was done very effectively in V - the whole flick of the reptilian tongue must be one of the greatest moments in televisual history. Maybe she'll give birth to a Cylon... pilot!


EWWWWW

Moulin
February 23rd, 2006, 05:00 PM
IMO- I think the hesitation from people with the whole Dee/Lee thing is not from race. God no. I think it comes from a subliminal feeling the audience has with Lee, and that maybe one day he should be with Kera.

No. I'm part of the audience, and I don't feel that Lee should be with Kara. I can point you to plenty of folks on other boards who don't feel he should be with Kara. Everything he's accomplished has been in spite of Kara, Kara whose egregious judgment got his brother killed, Kara who had no trouble making him feel insecure before the biggest mission of his life (destroying the cylons at the tillium refinery) because she felt bad that she couldn't fly, Kara who shot him because she insisted on going in with guns when Adama ordered recon only (Captain's Hand), Kara the drunk, Kara who stands around smarting off on Pegasus while her viper pilots are missing--Lee needs to be with that Kara?

No, IMHO he needs to be away from that Kara. They aren't romantic or endearing or charming in any way. I find it implausible that they're even friends, so much so that it detracts from the quality of the series. Moore needs to do something about her character but quick before she's completely irredeemable if she isn't already. If there's any objection to Lee/Dee, it's from audience members who identify with poor forgettable Billy. It's from folks who thought the new pairing came about too quickly. It isn't because we're all Lee/Kara shippers. Trust me. That's not the case. ;)


And truth be told, I can't really blame Dee for being attracted to Apollo either.

Nor can I.

GateTrek2004
February 23rd, 2006, 09:01 PM
Thank you for utterly destroying that plot point for me, Gate. :mad: There are these things called SPOILER WARNINGS. You might want to try figuring out what they are before you post again.

I DON'T KNOW HOW! I HAVE NOT BEEN A MEMBER LONG!!! I WOULD HAVE DONE A SPOILER, BUT ITS BEEN EDITED NOW SO IM SORRY. I HAVE NOT BEEN A MEMBER AS LONG AS YOU AND HAVE POSTED 9,000 POSTS! AND THIS IS TO EVERYONE: IM STILL LEARNING HOW TO DO THIS AND WHEN I KNOW I WILL DO IT IN THE FUTURE. And if you have seen it before it was modified, i am very sorry. i am new at this and not quite familiar with all the rules when it comes to posting spoilers, and actually, i probally and rarley will. again i am sorry to you.

GateTrek2004
February 23rd, 2006, 09:12 PM
I second what shadow has said. I've now been spoiled for this friday's episode.

thanks so much.

Ladies and Gents, I do ask folks to please refresh their knowledge of the spoiler rules. Anything that hasn't been seen in us syndication needs to be marked wtih spoiler warnings, this ESPECIALLY applies to upcoming, unaired episodes

As i said to ShadowMaat: i am so sorry and i see you have edited it. again i don;t know how to do it. Tell me and in the future i will. Thanks :(

GateTrek2004
February 23rd, 2006, 09:17 PM
spoiler test
if you are reading this, i know how to do spoilers In the future i WILL USE IT. Sorry again.

Scooteristi
February 23rd, 2006, 09:23 PM
I still think Dee is a cylon, I simply think that there is not enough love between Dee and Apollo for conception to occur (wacky cylon biology)

Baltar did test quite few people with his "Cylon detector" and Dee passed (while Sharon failed and Baltar neglected to report it).

THSEX1138
February 23rd, 2006, 09:44 PM
spoiler test
if you are reading this, i know how to do spoilers In the future i WILL USE IT. Sorry again.


I forgive ya pal. I speak for myself but I hope this won't discourage you from posting your thoughts and opinions here. I know this is something you didn't mean to do on purpose. In 24 hours it will be history anyway. I actually turn off the show when I see the " Executive Producers" sign so I can't see the previews for next weeks episode.

GateTrek2004
February 23rd, 2006, 09:48 PM
I forgive ya pal. I speak for myself but I hope this won't discourage you from posting your thoughts and opinions here. I know this is something you didn't mean to do on purpose. In 24 hours it will be history anyway. I actually turn off the show when I see the " Executive Producers" sign so I can't see the previews for next weeks episode.

Yea i know it will blow over, but its something that i can only say sorry to some who are upset.

GateTrek2004
February 23rd, 2006, 09:50 PM
Baltar did test quite few people with his "Cylon detector" and Dee passed (while Sharon failed and Baltar neglected to report it).

i really don;t remember hearing that dee passed, or it was something that i missed? in the world of BSG: ANYTHINGS POSSIBLE!!!

THSEX1138
February 23rd, 2006, 10:29 PM
Baltar did test quite few people with his "Cylon detector" and Dee passed (while Sharon failed and Baltar neglected to report it).

This is purely speculation on my part but I wondered what would happen if Baltar tested his own blood with the Cylon Detector? He is so self centered I bet the thought that he might be a Cylon would never have crossed his mind. This might also explain why Six can POP into his head at any moment. In the Mini Series right after Baltar and Six finish their walk in the park Six turns and says " It's about time. I wondered when you'd get here." The camera shot makes this impossible to see who she's speaking with but my question is was there anyone actually standing there at all? Is it normal for Cylons to communicate in this way? I can't wait to find out one day.

triabita
February 24th, 2006, 12:35 AM
It's funny how a battlestar class ship like the Pegasus would have it's FTL drive fixed by closing some valves of steam pipes :confused:

*** HOW THE HELL DOES BALTAR STILL STAND ON THE SHOW? ***
What happened to Roslin's memories from when she was cancer cured?

What happened to the nuke that was stolen?

ToasterOnFire
February 24th, 2006, 06:29 AM
Baltar did test quite few people with his "Cylon detector" and Dee passed (while Sharon failed and Baltar neglected to report it).
From "Tigh me up, Tigh me down":

#6 - If only they knew that everyone passes these days.
Baltar - Well, it's so much simpler that way. No muss, no fuss.
#6 - So... what did (Ellen Tigh's) test really say?
Baltar - I'll never tell.

Now that doesn't make Dee a cylon, but Baltar's test is obviously biased. Who knows how many cylons he let pass.

GateTrek2004
February 24th, 2006, 09:05 AM
*** HOW THE HELL DOES BALTAR STILL STAND ON THE SHOW? ***
What happened to Roslin's memories from when she was cancer cured?

What happened to the nuke that was stolen?

im sure that will come into play soon in either the last 3 episodes or sometime in the beginning of the 3rd season.

Hoodwink
February 24th, 2006, 09:28 AM
Moulin, I agree with your reasoning completey. And that is the basis I see their Love /Hate relationship. There's this motivation to keep proving them selves and upping the other. I see this as surpressed emotions. Many great relationships have resulted from situations like this. Whos name did Keira call out when she was doing Baltar?
You may not agrree and I totally respect your views. That's what makes this show so great and hopefully last long at this qualiy to keep this type of talkbalk going.
Thanks for the comment.

Moulin
February 24th, 2006, 02:10 PM
Hi Hoodwink. Great discussion. I love being able to disagree and still discuss different aspects in a civil fashion. I'm glad to be here. :) I've already been told I'm not welcome in the Lee/Kara thread. ;)

That's the thing I don't get about Kara, though. She called out Lee's name, but forgot about him soon enough when Anders came along. According to her, Anders was the reason she decided to live instead of killing herself getting Scar. If she loves Lee so much, why isn't he the reason? I'm finding Kara increasingly inconsistent in that regard. The writing for her character is schizophrenic to say the least, but that bit about Anders giving her a reason to live is pretty hard to miss. I don't know what the writers are trying to accomplish, but her character is on an increasingly negative path that I don't like. She's regressed very seriously in the past season.

I suppose I'll never get over the Zack business and Kara being responsible for his death. I've never bought Lee and Kara because of that and I'm certain I never will. It's just too "out there." It's too much. For me, that doesn't make great television because I've found in real life that polar opposites make miserable couples. For me, it's not exciting. There's one thing I miss very much from that god awful TOS cheesefest--the friendship of Starbuck and Apollo sans romance. It's missing here. Color me sexist, but I find myself wishing that Starbuck were a man so that the supposed UST could be discarded. Apollo needs Starbuck as a friend, not someone who shoots him and undermines his confidence. I wish they were only friends. Real friends. At this point, I feel that everything Lee's accomplished as a character has been in spite of Kara. That's a terrible imbalance going on in what's supposed to be a friendship for the ages. I don't buy it. At this point, I don't care if it's Dee, Racetrack, Kat or Helo for that matter. I was just thrilled to see Lee in bed with someone else. Starbuck and Helo are much more believable as devoted platonic companions.

Hoodwink
February 24th, 2006, 04:32 PM
I too miss the type friendships from the old days of the original and other series,( my god what if Spock was a woman, Would Kirk ever been able to concentrate? Or Starsky to Hutch?) Things are more complicated now in series. Nothing is back and white anymore. Which is fine for me because I can always go back to an old show to see a safe story and friendship between characters.
The relationship between Halo and Kira as two people who really seem to know each others moves. This subtilty implies good a friend ship from the past. They seem more like an old Apollo and Starbuck then do the current ones. Maybe Helo will snap Kira out of her fall since the 'The Farm' and all her other issues. Lee maybe now has his hands too full to help her out now.

As back to the Dee thing. I don't understand the seeming hostility towards her there seems to be o the boards. Maybe many are expecting her to turn out Cylon and don't want Lee to be in the middle of it. With Billy, it was ok, but not with Lee.
I have faith in what Ron Moore and crew delivers to us.

Moulin
February 24th, 2006, 04:41 PM
I'm glad as well that Spock wasn't a woman:eek: :D That would not have worked. Kirk would have walked around with a constant you know what in his pants. ;) I'm glad you mentioned the hostility towards Dee. It does seem to be out of all proportion, doesn't it? So the girl loves Apollo....that makes her an awful person? Billy dying was a tragic coincidence. My theory about the hostility boils down to her not being Kara. There's huge antipathy towards Anders as well. Some folks ship their couple hard. I hope neither of them are cylons, but if Dee is, I hope Moore makes a fascinating story out of it. Cylons are capable of love, I believe.


The relationship between Halo and Kira as two people who really seem to know each others moves. This subtilty implies good a friend ship from the past. They seem more like an old Apollo and Starbuck then do the current ones.

Exactly. Now there's a friendship I like and a friendship I believe. The forced UST just gets in the way of Lee/Kara. I wish they'd get it out in the open, say it won't happen because of Zach, and then continue with the friendship.

KatG
February 25th, 2006, 10:14 AM
I think Lee/Kara are moving more toward the "friendship" place now. She's made it rather obvious that she cares for Anders alot, and Lee has whatever he has going on with Dee at the moment and they both seem very content with that. I thought they had a really nice friendship moment in this episode there at the end without all the UST.

Moulin
February 25th, 2006, 06:27 PM
You're right, KatG. It was a lovely friendship moment. If Lee and Kara could stay in that mode I think I could grow to appreciate them as best friends. Lee has no "best friend" who is only a friend and he needs one. The UST lessens that. I find myself thinking, "Is that the only reason you made Starbuck a woman, Ron?" Lee and Kara as friends would seem to be more beneficial for the overall story. Otherwise they're off in their little "loves me/loves me not" bubble apart from the main story. Will they or won't they? That game can drag a show's writing down. More than that, IMO Lee and Kara as friends strengthens their characters. Otherwise, he comes across as weak and she as somewhat nutty and emotional.

Yes, she's in love with Anders. They looked pretty thrilled in the preview for next week when they ran into each others' arms. Knowing how much Katee fought for the actor's return (I listened to her online interview; she used the words "I fought for him to come back") one has to wonder if she's on board the Lee/Kara train. She sure didn't sound like it while she raved about Trucco. :( If one of the actors isn't on board, maybe they're better off developing Anders/Kara and making Lee his own man aboard the Pegasus. Rumor has it that the rumor that Pegasus wouldn't survive the season is false. I'd like to see Lee's character strengthen, and Kara become less all over the place emotional and drinking.

cent
February 26th, 2006, 03:14 PM
Captains Hand - great episode.

Introducing a engine-room staff officer´s view was brilliant. BSG always seems to give us new angels on what peoples feelings and views are in the fleet whether it be the pro-cylon civilians or the anti-cylon civilians or the fighters or even the cylons themselves we always get a new angel.
Putting a engieen-room officer in command of the Pegasus shows us why carriers(Battlestars) CO´s have to be former pilots(e.g. line officers). Even though Battlestars have a wide vareity of people on board from Marines to Battery gunners and Medical personale to deck crews its primary role is to project fighters into combat and therefore a Battlestar needs a former fighter in command. Even though John Heards character was a good engien-officer.. strike that, great engien-officer he wasn´t cut out to be a BS Commander.

Anyways getting to the issue at hand. It strikes me as a bit odd that a Captain who was just recently(and I mean just yesterday as it seems) been promoted to Major gets promoted again, up two levels(jumping over the rank of Colonel) to Commander even though there is a Colonel(who by the way is just one rank below Commander) who Admiral Adama seems to value highly on the Galactica. Colonel Tigh.
Now I don´t know that much about military procedure but I would think that Tigh was next in line. And I would think that Colonel Tigh would have a big problem with that a officer who just one week ago was not only one but two! ranks below him is all of a sudden his superior officer???
Anyways we all know that Lee Adama has what it takes to become a BS commander, he´s got it in his blood but isn´t he a bit young???

KatG
February 26th, 2006, 04:25 PM
Heh, heh. There's just something about calling them "BS commanders" that cracks me up.

As to Tigh, as stated previously, when given a chance to be a "BS commander" he fraked it up royally, almost bringing about a civil war. He also told Adama after his(Adama's) recovery and even during it, that he never wanted command, so I don't think he'll have a problem with it.

KatG
February 26th, 2006, 04:26 PM
You're right, KatG. It was a lovely friendship moment. If Lee and Kara could stay in that mode I think I could grow to appreciate them as best friends. Lee has no "best friend" who is only a friend and he needs one.

It was lovely wasn't it. And as much as I liked the Lee/Kara ship, I like this just as well and don't mind if they decide to play it that way.

The Shadow
February 26th, 2006, 04:53 PM
Anyways getting to the issue at hand. It strikes me as a bit odd that a Captain who was just recently(and I mean just yesterday as it seems) been promoted to Major gets promoted again, up two levels(jumping over the rank of Colonel) to Commander even though there is a Colonel(who by the way is just one rank below Commander) who Admiral Adama seems to value highly on the Galactica. Colonel Tigh.
Now I don´t know that much about military procedure but I would think that Tigh was next in line. And I would think that Colonel Tigh would have a big problem with that a officer who just one week ago was not only one but two! ranks below him is all of a sudden his superior officer???
Anyways we all know that Lee Adama has what it takes to become a BS commander, he´s got it in his blood but isn´t he a bit young???

In a time when great leaders are needed....it's not uncommon to promote the younger ones who are very capable of doing to job. Besides, Tigh had his chance to show his strength as a commander, and he fraked up real bad. Adama knows that Tigh isn't meant to command but he is still a great XO. As for Lee, it's a little shocking, and probably more to Lee that Adama promoted him to command the Pegasus, but Adama knows that his son has the potential for greatness. Yes Lee is a little too young, and it is concerning that father and son be one rank apart from each other, but Lee is probably the best choice Adama can come up with!!!!!

titans
February 26th, 2006, 04:55 PM
In a time when great leaders are needed....it's not uncommon to promote the younger ones who are very capable of doing to job. Besides, Tigh had his chance to show his strength as a commander, and he fraked up real bad. Adama knows that Tigh isn't meant to command but he is still a great XO. As for Lee, it's a little shocking, and probably more to Lee that Adama promoted him to command the Pegasus, but Adama knows that his son has the potential for greatness. Yes Lee is a little too young, and it is concerning that father and son be one rank apart from each other, but Lee is probably the best choice Adama can come up with!!!!!

If I were Admiral Adama I wouldn't give my kid the Red Shirt of Death that is Peggasus command...you've seen whats happened to the last THREE Pegasus commanders in quick succession...Adama's got it out for Lee!

verse1991
February 26th, 2006, 07:36 PM
If I were Admiral Adama I wouldn't give my kid the Red Shirt of Death that is Peggasus command...you've seen whats happened to the last THREE Pegasus commanders in quick succession...Adama's got it out for Lee!

Ahh, but you don't care do you titans? in fact, im sure you are cheering it on. One person said earlier that his promotion will shave years off your life. In actuality, however, it will shave years of HIS life, and therefore add years to yours. What do you think of that?

Easter Lily
February 27th, 2006, 07:55 PM
Marvellous episode... great stuff all round... resonated with me the way The Hand of God did.
Apart from the retchworthy scenes in early in the piece, the episode has returned BSG to all the qualities that has made it such a compelling television show.
Personally I've always thought that the show had strong moralistic and political undertones but I daresay the issue of abortion is rather too close to home for many. Which ever way we vote on this, it's clear that the decisions made by various individuals here is going to have intriguing and long-term repercussions. That's what I think is really important... the playing out of these consequences and the subsequent chain reaction to all these events. It really doesn't surprise me that this issue of procreation has come up... it was inevitable really. What surprises me is that it hasn't been more of an issue considering the situation the fleet's been in.

I'm glad to see Lee return to what he does best... commanding ships and pilots. All the angst of the last few episodes while somewhat understandable was rather heavyhanded and unnecessarily protracted. With all his past antagonism with his father... he is still fundamentally his father's son. Push comes to shove, he is the kind of person who will still believes in doing the right thing.

I'm sorry but I don't care for Lee and Dee... not because of what they look like or what kind of impact their relationship might or might not have on other preferred pairings. It seems to me that the pairing is an obvious red-herring without any real emotional substance. It's there but there's no sense of a "why" about it and that bores me.
The sooner we get rid of that soap sud, the better... I just hope it doesn't degenerate into paternity suits or a case of fatal attraction.

Carrie
February 28th, 2006, 01:09 PM
It's funny how a battlestar class ship like the Pegasus would have it's FTL drive fixed by closing some valves of steam pipes :confused:

Correct me if I'm misremembering, but wasn't it part of the coolant system that had been breached, outside of just the hull? The steam would be from heated coolant, being sent back to get re-chilled before funneling through a very hot engine again.

badblu
March 9th, 2006, 09:54 PM
i never saw the 2 promotions coming for lee.

sg-22 medic
March 19th, 2006, 07:27 PM
This is a top notch episode, the tension was totally palatable. You think the Pegasus's commander had it in for starbuck from the start? "I have a problem, it's name is Keira Thrase." If that doesn't say it all, I don't know what does. This commander didn't have a clue about how to run a ship and should've declined promotion. His methodology was perfect for running engineering, where it shined brightest when needed at the end. I loved it when the commander gave Lee command of the ship, because of how Lee reacted. His reaction was so straight forward and honest. He was initially overwhelmed at the thought of commanding a Battlestar and then pulled himself back-up and relied apon his training as an experienced combat officer. Because of the situation they were in the reaction played off as very real and just added to the intensity of the situation.:jack_new_anime25: :jack_new_anime25: :jack_new_anime25:

DOIKECARTER
April 2nd, 2006, 10:03 AM
Well it was kinda funny seeing that Roslin didn't bat an eye ordering Sharon's
baby killed..... Even if the kid was half human..... they had Sharon at gun point.



Remember how much damage did inside the Fleet the very existence of Sharon Valerii in the brig? Laura wasn&#180;t thinking about the baby. It&#180;s easier to think about it as a machine...but she does have a point in thinking a human-cylon hybrid would be dangerous to the Fleet because of the cylons and because of the humans.

SemperFidelis
April 25th, 2006, 03:01 PM
Wow. I really liked this episode. Baltar was so confident, articulate and convincing. If I didn't know he was a devious traitor I would vote for him to be President.

The abortion issue was interesting but I don't think it was necessary. Rather than making abortion illegal couldn't some sort of procedure be created that would make it difficult for all but the very determined to get an abortion.

I am confused about the military assignments of Lee and Kara. Before Pegasus showed up Lee was a Captain and CAG and Kara was a Lt. When Cain showed up Kara was made Pegasus CAG and promoted to Captain and Lee demoted to Lt. and removed from being CAG. After Cain died Lee was back on Galactica and was CAG again (Epiphanies). But Kara was on Galactica as well, so was she demoted and transferred or just transferred? If she was just transferred who was Pegasus CAG? Then in Scar Kara was leading the Galactica squadran and Lee was on Galactica looking at a monitor. So again who was Pegasus CAG? Now that Lee is Commander we are told that Kara will be Galactica CAG. What the hell is going on in this military hierarchy?

Does anyone else feel that Tigh should have been given command of Pegasus rather than Lee? Tigh was the next most senior officer and has command experience. If we are going to be critical of Tigh let us not forget that Lee has himself disgraced the uniform. I think Tigh should have been given command. Also Tigh is Admiral Adama's loyal dog and wouldn't dare go against him, I cannot say the same for Lee. Also promoting Lee smells of Nepotism.

Major Zoidberg
April 25th, 2006, 03:29 PM
Actuarly tigh is not command material he prefers to live in Adama's shadow and lee won the respect of the pegasus crew when he took command where as Tigh wouldn't have.

I think kara was just on baord to do some training exercises for pilots :S

sirtesta
April 25th, 2006, 04:00 PM
Hey guys this is my first post and that, been watching series 2 of B-star (episode 17 just aired in uk) and it was amasing. Been reading up on the posts and see that a lot of people thought the same. Hopefully father and son will kick some ass in the new series and it would be good if they introduced a few more of the pegasus crew for more character lines. anyone agree??

Matt G
April 26th, 2006, 03:58 PM
Hmmmm...

1. Commander Lee Adama! Yeah right! Then again I said the same thing when he had the comm(and clearly so did he)

2. There were a load of holes in the 'extinct in 18 years' theory as others have pointed out. Best way of explaining that - Baltar was bullcacking.

3. The abortion issue was very iffy. I'm generally pro-abortion but prefer not to get into debates. Only reason it became a serious issue was due to Baltar's study. Boy did Rosslyn get played.



Nice work RDM! :)

Ed
April 27th, 2006, 12:52 PM
not sure if someone mentioned it but did you notice starbuck landed upside down on the ceiling of the flight pod

Major Zoidberg
April 27th, 2006, 01:24 PM
Yep, but when gravity is artificaly generated you cna land which ever way the gravity is pulling ;)

Thats what so great about sci-fi. You can probe issues like abortion (which i am also pro) which are very controversila in the U.S and not get flamed for it :S

I think the 18 years thing was when the women in the fleet werre no longer able to bare children :S

Wraith Scientist
October 27th, 2006, 11:38 AM
Another one of my favorites this season :)

I didn't like the new Pegasus commander when he was introduced, but by the end he really redeemed himself in my eyes. He wasn't a bad person, he was just an engineer, and a good one, but completely unqualified and unfit for command. He was, as Lee recognised, too used to working with machines.

Watching the big guns fight it out was awesome. The Battlestars seem more than a match for a Basestar 1 on 1. Basestars don't appear to have any kinetic weapons; they just seem to launch things: raiders, missiles etc. and hack enemy systems.

And the abortion thing too, I felt really slotted in nicely.

CrackedButter
October 31st, 2006, 04:03 PM
Don't forget a Mercury Class Battlestar is twice the size of a Basestar. We get a good comparison in Exodus Part 2.

MB.Eddie
January 5th, 2007, 11:53 PM
Quite a good ep.

Commander Garner did make some big mistakes, but he made up for em in the end imo. Thats what you get having an Engineer in command. As Apollo said, "He was used to working with machines. Command is about people."

Lots of good action in this ep too :)

The whole abortion issue added that extra bit to the episode and looked at the politics.

Good Apollo and Starbuck moments in this ep, especially at the end where he says "You have a brain?". Classic stuff.

I think Lee will make a fine Commander. Makes things tough for him and Dee though being on different ships now then unless she transfers...

Catsitter
September 30th, 2007, 05:01 AM
You know that bit in "Previously on BSG" right at the beginning of this episode when Adama tells Tigh that he has put Garner in command of the Pegasus? Was that really taken from a previous episode?

Trek_Girl42
October 2nd, 2007, 01:32 PM
You know that bit in "Previously on BSG" right at the beginning of this episode when Adama tells Tigh that he has put Garner in command of the Pegasus? Was that really taken from a previous episode?
Nope. Some of the eps contains pieces in the "previously" that had to be cut from previous eps. Personally I kinda like that they do that rather than contrive a full explanation in the episode itself. :)

Catsitter
October 2nd, 2007, 03:37 PM
Thanks, Trek Girl. I thought I hadn't seen that bit before.

Pharaoh Atem
April 20th, 2008, 08:09 AM
this is probably one of the best eps of the series i love that lee got to take command of Pegasus during a big situation :)

Ishay
May 3rd, 2009, 01:13 PM
lee looked scared to death when he had to take command :P overall really nice ep nice to finally see a pegasus centric episode.

sad to see gardner die i actually liked him

Professor_S
June 16th, 2011, 01:33 PM
Great episode! Loved both stories.

The Pegasus - interesting to watch the leadership struggles continue on this ship. Admiral Cain left such a gaping void in her death. Bamber played Lee's reaction perfectly when he was given command; took a moment and then switched into gear... like muscle memory. Valid point also that a good department head does not a good commander make. Garner was a good man and a good engineer, he just didn't know how to command a battlestar. Lee did a good job in command; I think he deserved the promotion at the end.

Roslin - I love the way this was handled. It's such an excellent point - the liberties enjoyed in times of prosperity cannot always apply in such extreme situations. That does not make the decision easy though. MM did an amazing job of portraying Roslin's inner conflict vis-a-vis this issue (MM has said in interviews that given her own position, it was a difficult episode for her).

Nice bit of Shakespeare there too or... proto-Shakespeare :P "You have your pound of flesh"...

Awesome bit of political grand-standing at the end there by Baltar. The scene reminded me of some of the best/most exciting scenes in The West Wing. Baltar's a political animal if ever there was one!

All in all, a brilliant episode!