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GateWorld
January 2nd, 2006, 06:54 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/216.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px solid black" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888">GALACTICA SEASON TWO</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">SACRIFICE</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 216</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
A woman who lost her husband to the Cylons takes the Cloud Nine lounge hostage, demanding that Adama hand over the Cylon Sharon so that she can exact revenge.

<FONT SIZE=1><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
February 10th, 2006, 06:55 PM
It was a sad ep. I give it a ***. It's sad Billy had to die, he was a cool character.

aaobuttons
February 10th, 2006, 06:58 PM
I really don't like Dee right now... :(

ToasterOnFire
February 10th, 2006, 06:58 PM
OMG! Billy!! I didn't see that coming at all. :(

Now I'm completely and totally against Apollo/Dee. :mad:

ShadowMaat
February 10th, 2006, 06:58 PM
You knew he was dead as soon as it showed him in the "previously on..." And then the proposal... Gods. Poor Billy. http://www.pushupstairs.com/images/emoticon/neptune/Animated/Sad/sad010.gif

At least he got to die a hero, saving the woman he loved. Dee had already killed him anyway, the gunman just finished the job.

kharn the betrayer
February 10th, 2006, 06:58 PM
THEY KILLED BILLY!!!! *crys*

WHY do I always like characters that end up dead ;_; just about every show I like one of my fav characters always ends up dead... *crys*

Dee should have died not Billy.... Dee can burn in hell ;_;

....any ways...

they called Tigh by his 1st name O_o how many times have we heard them say his 1st name excluding pod casts?

oh and even though it wasnt supposed to be funny I laugthed for a good 5 min when Kara shot lee

titans
February 10th, 2006, 07:00 PM
Good episode. Poor Billy...man of a thousand bad ties...alas we hardley new yee!

And how about Apollo!! Not only does he steal poor Bill'ys girl, but he blows his lame rescue attempt (good job giving up the gun doofey!) gets caught by friendly fire (moron doesn't know how to duck) and bleeds all over the place like a girl! (moron!) God I hate him!

Poor Billy.

Skydiver
February 10th, 2006, 07:02 PM
Guys, gentle warning, be very mindful of your spoiler space when discussing this eps outside of this thread.

Also bear this in mind with your sigs. The UK has yet to see this and given the rather shocking events, i'm sure they'll appreciate not being spoiled

titans
February 10th, 2006, 07:07 PM
Guys, gentle warning, be very mindful of your spoiler space when discussing this eps outside of this thread.

Also bear this in mind with your sigs. The UK has yet to see this and given the rather shocking events, i'm sure they'll appreciate not being spoiled

oops...sorry too busy being consumed with rage over Apollo

ShadowMaat
February 10th, 2006, 07:11 PM
Shocking? Not really. Ever since TPTB started shoving Lee and Dee on top of one another, it was pretty obvious Billy was gonna get slagged.

But yeah, it's still upsetting to have one's bad feelings confirmed. :(

And all my stupid friends are on the West Coast so I can't even seek consolation there. *sigh*

They should've just sent Billy to me. I'd have taken MUCH better care of him. And helped him pick out better clothes. ;)

Vienna_Smiles
February 10th, 2006, 07:29 PM
Now I'm completely and totally against Apollo/Dee. :mad:


I am so on board with that statement. However, the writers of BSG have other plans...

Throughout both seasons, Dee has been painted as a saving angel for the Adama men, and Kara being the unpredictable, and dangerous wildcard. Based on the events on the episode "Sacrifice", I predict a long, serious relationship for Lee & Dee :(

February 10th, 2006, 07:35 PM
They killed Billy! *tear*
He was such a refreshing face.*tear, tear*

At the rate the writers are killing people off, the population will go down even without the Cylon attacks.
The Dee should have accepted the proposal and had some children.

titans
February 10th, 2006, 07:36 PM
They killed Billy! *tear*
He was such a refreshing face.*tear, tear*

At the rate the writers are killing people off, the population will go down even without the Cylon attacks.
The Dee should have accepted the proposal and had some children.

Billy was too good for Dee. I hope her and Apollo are happy together. They deserve each other...God how I hate them both now.

Vienna_Smiles
February 10th, 2006, 07:37 PM
Children? No problem...Dee has found a replacement stud in Lee.

ToasterOnFire
February 10th, 2006, 07:37 PM
See, the thing that irks me the most is that Billy died thinking that Dee was cheating on him with Apollo or at least that they were on a date. But that wasn't the case (unless something happened behind the scenes) - last I heard Dee had a thing for Apollo but it wasn't returned. It baffles me that neither Dee nor Apollo, who blatantly brushed Dee off two eps ago, set Billy right when he first confronted them. It makes me really dislike them both.

Damn, and there was all this talk about Billy eventually becoming president too. He would have been great. I teared up when Roslin broke down in the morgue. Gah, such a sad scene. :(

Wouldn't it be interesting if Baltar had a hand in leaking Sharon's info to the terrorists? If Roslin ever found out she'd go nuts. I mean completely ballistic.

ShadowMaat
February 10th, 2006, 07:39 PM
Lee and Dee. One shallow, arrogant character finds another. Perfect.

Billy did deserve someone better.

titans
February 10th, 2006, 07:41 PM
Lee and Dee. One shallow, arrogant character finds another. Perfect.

Billy did deserve someone better.

Agreed!

February 10th, 2006, 07:44 PM
I am so on board with that statement. However, the writers of BSG have other plans...

Throughout both seasons, Dee has been painted as a saving angel for the Adama men, and Kara being the unpredictable, and dangerous wildcard. Based on the events on the episode "Sacrifice", I predict a long, serious relationship for Lee & Dee :(
your probably right. Now that I think about it, she has been the voice of reason several times this season.

ShadowMaat
February 10th, 2006, 07:44 PM
As for the ep itself, I found it very dull. It was a stock storyline with stock characters and other than adding a couple question marks onto Sharon's allegiance and murdering Billy, I didn't feel the ep served any purpose.

That makes three bland eps in a row, by my own reckoning. I hope things get better soon.

LoneStar1836
February 10th, 2006, 07:54 PM
They killed Billy! You *******s. Poor Billy. :( I had a feeling this was the one he was going to buy it in. I was already spoiled when someone created a spoiler thread about his death which had the spoiler in the mouse over.

It was pretty obvious anyway he was going to eventually be sacrificed for the sake of ship. :rolleyes: They are quickly casting an unfavorable light on Dee whom I use to really like. Course Lee’s not escaping unscathed either.


And poor Colonel Reynolds.....oops, wrong show....I wonder if that actor was playing the same character he played in “Flesh and Bone” (the captain of that ship where they found Leoben) or was he supposed to be a different person and they just hoped we wouldn’t remember his face.

Umm not quite sure how I feel about this episode. Had too much ship for my taste. The show already gets accused of being a soap opera, and this one kind of came too close to that. And finally Kara has gotten in on the skulking action. First it was Dee in Resurrection Ship, Pt 2, then Lee in one of those last couple of eps, and now Kara.... Plus, like Shadow said, it really served no other purpose, storywise.



{snip}.... gets caught by friendly fire (moron doesn't know how to duck) and bleeds all over the place like a girl! (moron!) God I hate him!lol. Uh how does one bleed like a girl (other than then um obvious answer)? They better not have Lee throwing a baseball anytime soon cause then you’ll have to come back with the classic response that he throws like a girl. ;):P I think I'll have to agree with you though on the ducking thing.



Guys, gentle warning, be very mindful of your spoiler space when discussing this eps outside of this thread.

Also bear this in mind with your sigs. The UK has yet to see this and given the rather shocking events, i'm sure they'll appreciate not being spoiledThose poor saps from the UK would be best advised to stay away from this folder anyway because even the most innocuous threads have spoilers in them. This folder is peppered with them and often without warning. I’m just thankful I’m not having to wait to see these eps.

ShadowMaat
February 10th, 2006, 07:56 PM
Uh how does one bleed like a girl.
Well, obviously a man would be able to suck it up and stop the bleeding through sheer manly willpower. ;) Only a sissy would faint like that. :P

LoneStar1836
February 10th, 2006, 08:01 PM
Well, obviously a man would be able to suck it up and stop the bleeding through sheer manly willpower. ;) Only a sissy would faint like that. :P
Well my brother ought to be happy because he thinks Lee is a wuss as well. :D

Hey at least for once I didn’t have to scream at the idiots on tv to apply direct pressure to a gun shot. At least this show gets it right, like Tigh did with Adama in KLG. I can’t stand it when someone gets shot, and the other idiots are like “OMG what do I do now...”. Apply direct pressure. Duh.

Vienna_Smiles
February 10th, 2006, 08:36 PM
Well my brother ought to be happy because he thinks Lee is a wuss as well. :D

Hey at least for once I didn’t have to scream at the idiots on tv to apply direct pressure to a gun shot. At least this show gets it right, like Tigh did with Adama in KLG. I can’t stand it when someone gets shot, and the other idiots are like “OMG what do I do now...”. Apply direct pressure. Duh.


If Lee weren't injured so badly, I would have smacked him upside the head for being a total emotional f**kwit.

THSEX1138
February 10th, 2006, 09:40 PM
Sad episodes are always the best. Billy is dead.....really? I don't think so. We'll see him again.

What is with all the hatred with Dee? I personally feel that Dee is a very attractive woman and cannot understand all of the remarks about her being annoying. You gotta have love for woman that goes after what she wants. What makes her more annoying than any of the other women on this show? Most if not all of the women in this series lust after men they cannot have examples; Dee & Billy (at first), Starbuck & Apollo (when she knew she had him she didn't want him any more), Ellen & Zarak, Specialist Cally & Chief Tyrol, Number 6 & Baltar shall I keep going? Face it folks you cannot hate someone that you don't believe in. If you hate Dee it's because KANDYSE McCLURE is a damn good actress. Worry not all the Dee haters out there the minute Apollo develops true feelings for Dee Starbuck will be there to drive a deep wedge between them.

The Shadow
February 10th, 2006, 10:01 PM
Sad episodes are always the best. Billy is dead.....really? I don't think so. We'll see him again.

What is with all the hatred with Dee? I personally feel that Dee is a very attractive woman and cannot understand all of the remarks about her being annoying. You gotta have love for woman that goes after what she wants. What makes her more annoying than any of the other women on this show? Most if not all of the women in this series lust after men they cannot have examples; Dee & Billy (at first), Starbuck & Apollo (when she knew she had him she didn't want him any more), Ellen & Zarak, Kelly & the Chief, Number 6 & Baltar shall I keep going? Face it folks you cannot hate someone that you don't believe in. If you hate Dee it's because KANDYSE McCLURE is a damn good actress. Worry not all the Dee haters out there the minute Apollo develops true feelings for Dee Starbuck will be there to drive a deep wedge between them.

I agree. I didn't hate Dee although I never really liked her either, she is just like any girl of this universe. Face it people, every type of character on BSG has its parallel with real life people.

And Apollo bleed like a girl???? When you get two shots like that, I'll be surprised you don't faint. I would know.... not that I'm in the military, I'm only 14 years old, but I spend weekends with Navy pilots who sometimes find themselves in this kind of situation and they get hurt like that and slipped to unconsciousness, my best friend Eric got shot twice when his team was surrounded by hostile forces, he was a mess when they brought him back.

Can't dodge??? My friends are full-trained Navy personnel who still doesn't know how to dodge well, and people get caught in friendly fire all the time, I mean, it's friendly so you don't expect to get shot at. I was playing paintball gun war with them and I was victorius in the battle because they didn't know how to dodge my shots. Things happen, I don't think Apollo expected Starbuck to hit him instead...:rolleyes:

I like Apollo, he's a very complex character. People like him needs just a nudge in the back or a support to reach their highest potential, and Apollo can be really good when he's at his best. I can understand the feelings he's going through having to live up to the expectations and the greatness of his father.

It was a sad ep, and I just started to really really like Billy too....:mckay:

Ramne
February 10th, 2006, 10:10 PM
Wow, didn't see the Billy death coming. Why couldn't they kill off Ellen Tigh instead? PLEASE?! :cool:

THSEX1138
February 10th, 2006, 10:19 PM
Look at it this way if it weren't for Dee more than half the fleet would have been destroyed on Kobol and there would be about 12.009 people on the whiteboard that's if President Baltar decided to keep track.

DEE IS A GODDESS!!!

Lady Snow
February 10th, 2006, 10:20 PM
I particularly liked Starbuck's reaction after she shot Apollo. The whole "Oh holy FRACK what did I just do" look spreading over her face was priceless. This does not, however, mean that I in any way advocate the injuring of the precious CAG. Lee's character is quite a relief on the show - and by character, I do actually mean more than "rather fit body..." Maybe he's idealistic and moralizing and hypocritical, but hey - welcome to real life.

Speaking of priceless, how about Tigh (Saul, that is)? I swear, that man just gets more and more awesome by the episode, regardless of how much screen time he gets. The supporting cast is phenomenal, and I think that's why the loss of Billy really hit me.

Especially after he ate his vitamins that morning.

aztec_sun
February 10th, 2006, 10:27 PM
Listening to the podcast, Ron talks about how killing Billy was to let Paul Campbell move on, carreer-wise. He says he was being offered leads for other shows/movies and that to try and keep the character while making some excuse of why he's not coming up as much wouldn't work.

If I were Paul Campbell, I would probably want to go on to lead roles, too. But Battlestar is so amazing, such a great show, I'd want to be a part of it.

GALACTIC MYTH
February 10th, 2006, 10:45 PM
I loved the episode. I am sad to see Billy go, but am torn in a crossroad if I want to see him again in later eps. or not (if he was a cylon). I liked him as a character and would lilke hiim to stay dead so he died as a good man.

Another thought is If there was only one ressurrectionship, that means that even if Billy was a cylon he would also be REALY DEAD.

POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR RESSURRECTION SHIP PARTS 1&2 AND PAST EPS.

After the ressurrection ship was destroyed, in that forum I stated that I believe that there are as many ressurrection ships as there are cylon models, (now 11 ships since there are 12 cylon models)and if that is true and Billy does turn out to be a cylon, we know that there are more ressurrection ships.

SPOILERS END

I am sorry but when Elen life was threatened I just was like "come on just shoot the B**** and get it overwith and I would be happy about it." I was not happy when they chose to kill Billy over Elen, which is why I think RDM and writers decided to do that. Nevertheless, sad.

Oh and I not sure if anyone else noticed it but right when Lee was shot Kara was aiming at the man behind him not Lee and Lee just got in the way. (at least I thought I saw a enemy there?) Poor Kara now with all the other bagage she is dealing with now is added the shooting Lee, overhearing Dee talking to Lee, Admrill Adama for shooting Lee, Kat from past eps. and the list goes on, man how much can she take before she brakes. Also I can't stop feeling like her.

Sorry one more thing, I think Dee is feeling guilty and responsible for Billy's death and is now going to try to make everything workout between her and Lee, although there was realy nothing before except flurting, and will hope that it'll become serious.

chyron
February 11th, 2006, 03:52 AM
On the Cylon homeworld: "They killed our leader all Humans must die."

Hamyseven
February 11th, 2006, 05:06 AM
I found the episode to be a breath of fresh air. First off, I didn't see the banner of S2 "48 hours earlier" anywhere in the show. Secondly, they went back to the shock and awe tactics that made this show great to begin with. I didn't see the whole Billy thing coming. At least not till he and Dee started talking about how he shouldn't try and attack the bad guy because he wasn't a soldier. I am not in favor of the Dee and Lee ship at all. I also see them working on the Dee, Lee, and Kara ship as well. (I didn't realize how much he meant to me till I accidently shot him.) But the one thing I truly found annoying was the clips for next week with Lee running around the Pegasus like he was never shot.

Hamyseven
February 11th, 2006, 05:11 AM
Did anyone else notice the blooper at the beginning of the attack in the bar? Lee took Ellen into the bathroom to hide. Then the bad guys start to get into position to take over the bar. I noticed Dee (who is sitting in the background) watch one of the bad guys get out of his chair and walk across the room. It was obvious that she was watching the actor do his part, but I don't think she was suppose to be doing that. It was obvious to me, at least.

stop
February 11th, 2006, 06:03 AM
Do you have seen the pictures of ep 16 you see that dee and lee are kissing but I saw nothing of that in the episode

Blue Banrigh
February 11th, 2006, 06:20 AM
Do you have seen the pictures of ep 16 you see that dee and lee are kissing but I saw nothing of that in the episode
Probably a deleted scene. I could see it fitting in just before the proposal scene.

Starbuck's reaction to shooting Lee and the President's reaction to Billy in the morgue are my highlights of the episode.

For the love of god, would someone please kill Ellen Tigh. She gave Starbuck away, I thought it was going to be Reynolds recognising Starbuck that would blow her cover.

ShadowMaat
February 11th, 2006, 06:25 AM
Amen. Bad enough the character is obnoxious, morally bankrupt and suicidally stupid ("Oh, I'll just go out there and talk to them!"), but she's apparently never played poker before because her gaping at Starbuck is what made the hijackers twig to the situation.

Blue Banrigh
February 11th, 2006, 06:33 AM
Did anybody expect Adama to capitulate to the Sasha's demands (giving the dead Sharon doesn't really count)?

On any other show I'd expect them to beg for the person's life over the phone and cave in towards the end. But I never expected it from this show, I'm glad the characters understand the bigger picture.

Though I'm wondering if this reneges on what Adama said to Lee in 'Can't go Home Again', that he'd never leave him behind.

ToasterOnFire
February 11th, 2006, 06:42 AM
Ellen Tigh is either an incredibly stupid woman or a cyclon. Now TPTB may not do the whole cylon thing because it does seem glaringly obvious, but at this point I'd rather blame her actions on such an ulterior motive rather than her being a stupid twit. The stupid twit thing is annoying as hell.

shockwave
February 11th, 2006, 06:54 AM
this ep wasn't as good as the others
black market aint the lowpoint, this one is
not that is was totally bad

keshou
February 11th, 2006, 06:59 AM
*sigh* Well I'd already heard rumors that Billy was going to bite it so I figured as soon as the episode started that this was his exit. Good to know it's because Paul Campbell has other career opportunities out there. And nice to see Billy go out a hero - in the face of being tossed to the curb by Dee. :(

I actually liked this one quite a bit. Good pacing and tension - I didn't want to miss anything as the events unfolded. And no "48 hours" earlier setup! I'll give it a thumbs up just for that. :) ;)

The setup seemed a little contrived but I can certainly see that some of the more militant/desperate civilians might stage a terrorist strike in order to get a Cylon's head on the platter. I knew as soon as Adama made the phone call that he was going to try and fake them out with the "dead" Sharon's body. I wondered if they wouldn't figure out she was a little "too frozen". ;)

As for the character arcs.....pffft I really dislike the whole Lee/Dee thing. Dee and Billy was a nice sweet thread running thru the mini-series. I still remember Adama looking at them flirting and talking and making the decision to run with the fleet rather than taking a stand. Now Dee is just moving on up the ladder cause - hey, Apollo is a much better catch isn't he? :cool: Lee isn't coming off much better....

I've now ruled out Ellen Tigh as being a Cylon - no Cylon, sleeping or otherwise - could be that stupid. :p

A few really interesting scenes in this one. Thank goodness we finally see Adama asking Sharon for the names of the Cylons in the fleet - and her refusing. That was a big gaping plot hole that needed to be filled.

And Roslin's scene at Billy's side at the end was poignant and sweet. More odd was Adama lingering over dead Sharon's frozen body. She really did a number on him, didn't she?

saxamoophone
February 11th, 2006, 07:50 AM
Not a bad episode.

However, it was pretty by the books for the most part. It seemed pretty obvious that billy was going to die. So they could work on ripping off better deaths from 24 since they ripped a lot of other aspects of the show from it ;)

The Admiral and the prez are the only two characters left that I can say I really like at this point. Lee, Starbuck, Dee....they could all get shot for all i care.

Thermonuclearboy
February 11th, 2006, 08:01 AM
Man, this show is brutal to watch.

It just occured to me how much this episode was the exact opposite of every other action-movie-hostage-situation type thing you see in movies and TV. It was almost the Anti-Die Hard. Everything that could have gone wrong went wrong: Lee tries to protect Ellen, she freaks on him. Lee tries to foil them from within, he fails. Starbuck tries to rescue everyone, she winds up almost killing Lee. It finally all ends in a bloodbath, and the price paid is much too high.

I can't help but think that this is the point. It's still pretty brutal to watch.

Scandrea
February 11th, 2006, 08:04 AM
I usually don't post here, but I do have something to say about this episode:

I can't believe they killed Billy! I do understand about the actor wanting to move on, but Billy was really a great character. I really didn't like how he and Dee ended up, and I don't think the writers did as good a job ending that storyline as they could have.

As always, good acting, creepy and believable villains, solid main plot, yadda yadda yadda- but they killed Billy!:(

grover
February 11th, 2006, 08:37 AM
Finally... a non-flashback episode. That simple fact, and Dana Delaney as a guest star, were enough to make me LUV this episode. I'm not upset that they killed Billy, to be honest I thought his character arc was lagging. With his relationship to Dee (the hussy) failing there wasn't anywhere new for him to go. Besides, there are still at least a half dozen cylon models to be discovered.:cool:

And I love that Lee got shot by Kara, because I didn't feel like they really had enough baggage between them.:P Actually, what I really liked is that Adama benched Kara for the final raid. She was in no condition to take part in another assault and it creates an extra dimension to her relationship with Adama. You just know she's going to be tearing herself up for failing Daddy. Kara gets away with a lot of stuff because she's Adama's favorite, but actually putting a bullet in his son... there might be some consequences from that one.

Oh yeah. The whole Lee/Dee relationship is forced and hollow and the sooner Dee gets fingered as a cylon and this fracking thing can end the better.

titans
February 11th, 2006, 09:58 AM
Well, obviously a man would be able to suck it up and stop the bleeding through sheer manly willpower. ;) Only a sissy would faint like that. :P

I couldn't have said it better myself!!

A real man like Bill Adama needs like eight shots at deadpoint range to drop him! And even then much of his blood was scared to leave his body oout of terror for the beating it would have received from him once he recovered!

thebiggfrogg
February 11th, 2006, 10:52 AM
I agree. I didn't hate Dee although I never really liked her either, she is just like any girl of this universe. Face it people, every type of character on BSG has its parallel with real life people.

And Apollo bleed like a girl???? When you get two shots like that, I'll be surprised you don't faint. I would know.... not that I'm in the military, I'm only 14 years old, but I spend weekends with Navy pilots who sometimes find themselves in this kind of situation and they get hurt like that and slipped to unconsciousness, my best friend Eric got shot twice when his team was surrounded by hostile forces, he was a mess when they brought him back.

Can't dodge??? My friends are full-trained Navy personnel who still doesn't know how to dodge well, and people get caught in friendly fire all the time, I mean, it's friendly so you don't expect to get shot at. I was playing paintball gun war with them and I was victorius in the battle because they didn't know how to dodge my shots. Things happen, I don't think Apollo expected Starbuck to hit him instead...:rolleyes:

I like Apollo, he's a very complex character. People like him needs just a nudge in the back or a support to reach their highest potential, and Apollo can be really good when he's at his best. I can understand the feelings he's going through having to live up to the expectations and the greatness of his father.

It was a sad ep, and I just started to really really like Billy too....:mckay:
Great response! 14 years old, eh? Wise beyond your years. I don't understand all this Lee bashing. So he isn't some mindless shoot-'em up brickhead. He thinks. He's Hamlet. I like the fact that he is tortured a bit over the things he has done. It makes him human. That is what I love about Galactica. Everyone has their faults and nobody gets away unscathed (liked dodging bullets like Superman). Lee and Dee both suck at this point. But I've been divorced--it happens. Again, they aren't agents of Satan just flawed human beings. Keep it up Galactica, these characters are complicated and interesting!

Lady Snow
February 11th, 2006, 11:25 AM
Finally... a non-flashback episode.

I know! I didn't even have to throw anything at the TV! (However, I nearly did when SG-1 had the "8 Hours Earlier" going on...)


And I love that Lee got shot by Kara, because I didn't feel like they really had enough baggage between them. ... Kara gets away with a lot of stuff because she's Adama's favorite, but actually putting a bullet in his son... there might be some consequences from that one.

First, LOL! Of everyone on the show, Lee and Kara needed so much more baggage between them. And yes, I also agree that the Admiral will not be as forgiving (or whatever) to Kara in the near future. She's killed one of his boys and nearly (both emotionally and physically) the other. And yet... I'm still shipping L/K. Interesting.


Oh yeah. The whole Lee/Dee relationship is forced and hollow and the sooner Dee gets fingered as a cylon and this fracking thing can end the better.

Word.

userfriendly
February 11th, 2006, 12:41 PM
...Most if not all of the women in this series lust after men they cannot have examples;
... , Kelly & the Chief, ...
who would that be, captain kelly? :D :P

anyway, wasn't the best episode but on pair with scar and much better than, say, black market, so... i liked most of it, e.g. that hilarious scene with ellen thinking lee wanted to, uhm, frak her in the restroom :rolleyes: :D

cyke
February 11th, 2006, 12:46 PM
not billy !!!!! NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i cant believe it .. but dint he get hit in the shoulder.. omg ..dee you little b**** !

userfriendly
February 11th, 2006, 01:00 PM
no, lee got the bullet in the shoulder... billy got a whole salvo into his chest iirc... thoroughly done...

hU$h3rN7242c
February 11th, 2006, 02:08 PM
Man, this show is brutal to watch.

It just occured to me how much this episode was the exact opposite of every other action-movie-hostage-situation type thing you see in movies and TV. It was almost the Anti-Die Hard. Everything that could have gone wrong went wrong: Lee tries to protect Ellen, she freaks on him. Lee tries to foil them from within, he fails. Starbuck tries to rescue everyone, she winds up almost killing Lee. It finally all ends in a bloodbath, and the price paid is much too high.

I can't help but think that this is the point. It's still pretty brutal to watch.

Very good points. I think that RDM and crew tend to try and set themselves apart from the stock shows out there. For those reasons, I liked this episode. I know some folks are anti-Lee/Dee and upset that Billy is gone, but it was interesting to watch play out. I'm not sure where they are going with the Dee/Lee/Kara thing. Kara is hooked on Anders, and on some level Lee. Lee is hooked on Kara on some level, and the Dee thing seems like it may be him trying to stay away from Kara. Who knows. At this point, I'm happy to watch it play out. I know there's a contingent out there that wants to see Kara and Lee get down. I wouldn't mind seeing that myself, but the whole triangle thing always can get pretty interesting. I also see why Dee and Lee would gravitate towards each other, at least for the time being.

Astaire310
February 11th, 2006, 02:53 PM
OK episode, but far too predictable. So many plotlines/story arcs were advanced in such obvious ways that it made BSG feel like a soap opera. Only, much, much faster, thank goodness...

We knew that a wedge had to be driven between Adama and Roslin now that Cain is dead. The power struggle between the civilian government and military is a major storyline of the show.

We knew that a bigger wedge had to be driven between Kara and Lee than just thoughts of the possibly dead one-night stand (three-day stand?) Anders on Caprica. Can't let them get together in Season 2.

We knew the wedge would be Dee which meant that Billy had to be taken out of the picture. Once Billy started making intelligent comments to Roslin and Adama we should have know he was toast. Particularly after his proposal was refused. Also, he hasn't had a compelling storyline since the min-series.

We knew that Dee and Ellen had to survive in the hostage crisis because Dee is the "Wedge" and Ellen has a mysterious, unresolved plot line with Zarak. She also has to stick around to torture Saul (and all of us.) I really enjoy hating her.

Some other comments...

I thought that the actor who plays Tigh (and the character) was excellent in this episode. His range of expressions is really wonderful. I love Tigh when he is not drinking.

Gold stars to Boomer this week for refusing to tell Adama the names of the other Cylon agents. I like her even more for not being a complete traitor to her race.

Ellen's take on Lee's trip to the bathroom was hilarious.

After consistently hating Lee for 18 months, I actually liked him in this episode. He showed he had a brain. He noticed the terrorists before they made their move and came up with a clever plan. I liked the CO2 detector ruse. He probably took Ellen to the loo with him because he knew that she would mess everything up if he left her outside, not in order to save her. (Well, I will give him the benefit of the doubt on this one. He must have known that the terrorists would check the restroom and she wouldn't really be safe in there.) Not his fault that Kara shot him and he passed out. I thought that he was a whiny wuss last season, but he is slowly redeeming himself.

Poor Kara. Nothing ever works out right for her. Even more guilt is piled on her this week. Kills Zak, shoots Lee, enrages/disappoints her substitute father Bill Adama, etc. Nothing works out well for any of the characters if you think about it though...

Did anyone else wonder why the maintenance tunnel where the CO2 detector was didn't connect to other maintenance tunnels in the ship? Why couldn't Lee and Ellen just escape through it? (I think that might have made the episode more interesting.) You would think that there would be some kind of comm system in there as well considering there are no cell phones on board...

THSEX1138
February 11th, 2006, 03:13 PM
who would that be, captain kelly? :D :P

anyway, wasn't the best episode but on pair with scar and much better than, say, black market, so... i liked most of it, e.g. that hilarious scene with ellen thinking lee wanted to, uhm, frak her in the restroom :rolleyes: :D
Clarification Specialist Cally and Chief Tyrol. Who is Captian Kelly anyway?

ShadowMaat
February 11th, 2006, 03:32 PM
I wouldn't mind Callie/Tyrol, although I'm not sure Tyrol could ever think about Callie "that way". But hey, maybe she can... open his eyes. :D

l33tn00b
February 11th, 2006, 03:58 PM
Billy! Oh Noes!!!!!!!!!!!!1!

Cikak
February 11th, 2006, 04:04 PM
Am I the only one kind of pissed that Dee went to Apollo right after Billy died, I mean for gods sake Billy JUST died

cyke
February 11th, 2006, 04:20 PM
Am I the only one kind of pissed that Dee went to Apollo right after Billy died, I mean for gods sake Billy JUST died

when the whole thing occured, i was in some sort of disbelief of what iwas seeing, lee critically shot, billy dead. i didn't know what to think .. now that some time has passed....billy noooo !!! .. he was one of the most interesting minor characters they had . cudnt they put him in a coma ? .. are they going the track like lost where major characters are up for game.

Agent_Dark
February 11th, 2006, 04:20 PM
I thought the end scenes were interesting. Roslin having someone who she considered her son (Billy) dieing and Boomer lying on the bed. I wonder if those scenes are foreshadowing something on their behalfs?

Psychodad
February 11th, 2006, 04:36 PM
Very good points. I think that RDM and crew tend to try and set themselves apart from the stock shows out there.

Very true and I'm happy to see it. Hi everyone. I've been lurking a while but I've decided to join the discussion.

re Billy: RDM developed a rep for being the grimm reaper over at Star Trek for offing established characters. Maybe someone should start a Galactica deadpool.

Everyone hates the whole Lee/Dee thing but I find it intriguing. It shows how human and flawed these characters are.

BTW Gateworld smileys are hilarious. :)

alaskannut
February 11th, 2006, 04:40 PM
I

I am sorry but when Elen life was threatened I just was like "come on just shoot the B**** and get it overwith and I would be happy about it." I was not happy when they chose to kill Billy over Elen, which is why I think RDM and writers decided to do that. Nevertheless, sad

Hate to break it you, but no amount of bullets can kill that one....for that you'd need a sharpened 4x4;)

Anyway, did not see Billy's death coming...I'd heard speculation he might die in the season finale or something...but I did not expect it in this episode!:( :(

Blue Banrigh
February 11th, 2006, 04:59 PM
Clarification Specialist Cally and Chief Tyrol. Who is Captian Kelly anyway?
He's the LSO, he became 2IC when Tigh took charge of the Galactica. He was also the guy walking past all the dead bodies in the hanger bay with a handful of dog tags in the mini-series.

Amanda Eros
February 11th, 2006, 05:51 PM
I wouldn't mind Callie/Tyrol, although I'm not sure Tyrol could ever think about Callie "that way". But hey, maybe she can... open his eyes. :D

I think those two would be cute together. You can tell she really has a thing for him.

I just watched the episode, and it wasn't as bad as I thought it was originally going to be. Though the female characters all seem to make bad judgment calls. I used to believe that there can't be people out there that are as obnoxious as Ellen. Then I've met one recently, controlling yet blatantly loud, and thinks that they have to be the center of attention even though no one really likes them because of the way they act. Then you have to spell everything out for them...

I still can't believe Dee, I know that she didn't want to hurt Billy, but come on you're hurting him more by dragging the relationship on and on like that without actually wanting to stay with him.

I like Starbuck's reaction when she realized that she shot Lee.

Giving them the other Cylon Sharon was pretty predictable.

My Mom guessed that Billy was going to die early into the episode.

How Lee survived, is beyond me. Unless the bullet got stuck in-between his ribs. Though how Adama survived when Sharon shot him still remains a mystery to me as well, but he did.

ShadowMaat
February 11th, 2006, 05:58 PM
Maybe they're BOTH cylons. Although it'd be a bit silly of Sharon to shoot one of her own. ;) Unless it was all a bluff to throw suspicion off him. OOooo. :P

alaskannut
February 11th, 2006, 06:07 PM
How Lee survived, is beyond me. Unless the bullet got stuck in-between his ribs. Though how Adama survived when Sharon shot him still remains a mystery to me as well, but he did.
During the Battle of the Bakara Market back in 1993, a US Ranger survived for several hrs with an unexploded RPG anti-tank rocket lodged in his chest...when it comes to injury survival, the human body can be a lot more resilient than many give it credit for.

ShadowMaat
February 11th, 2006, 06:22 PM
During the Battle of the Bakara Market back in 1993, a US Ranger survived for several hrs with an unexploded RPG anti-tank rocket lodged in his chest...when it comes to injury survival, the human body can be a lot more resilient than many give it credit for.
Now THAT is a real man. Not like Sir Bleeds-a-lot. :P

(sorry, couldn't resist)

Amanda Eros
February 11th, 2006, 06:25 PM
During the Battle of the Bakara Market back in 1993, a US Ranger survived for several hrs with an unexploded RPG anti-tank rocket lodged in his chest...when it comes to injury survival, the human body can be a lot more resilient than many give it credit for.


That, and the Rangers are the best;) Hehe, my dad used to be one. Besides that I wonder if they have done any studies on why certain people survive their injuries and others don't. Does one's mental state of mind have something to do with it. If their body is tence or relaxed when hit, the amount of muscle the person has. Perhaps even the pulse of the person's heart rate might have something to do with it. I don't know.

Perhaps surviving critical inguries just runs in the Adama family.

I wonder if Lee punctured a lung when that happened.

alaskannut
February 11th, 2006, 06:33 PM
During the Battle of the Bakara Market back in 1993, a US Ranger survived for several hrs with an unexploded RPG anti-tank rocket lodged in his chest...when it comes to injury survival, the human body can be a lot more resilient than many give it credit for.
They actually show the guy in Black Hawk Down--they don't mention it in the movie, but he survived the convoy, made it to the Pakistani base at the stadium...and only died after they (carefully) removed the rocket and began to try to save him.

ShadowMaat
February 11th, 2006, 06:34 PM
I wonder if Lee punctured a lung when that happened.
Sir Wheezy Bleeds-a-lot? :D

OK, OK, I'll try to behave.

I liked Lee's running around in the walls, but... is it safe to assume that even those little passageways are blocked off? Like... he couldn't have just kept going, popped out in some random place, picked up Kara and her Marines and stormed back in through the bathroom? ;)

THSEX1138
February 11th, 2006, 06:34 PM
He's the LSO, he became 2IC when Tigh took charge of the Galactica. He was also the guy walking past all the dead bodies in the hanger bay with a handful of dog tags in the mini-series.
http://fapomatic.com/06/kely.jpg Oh yeah this guy.

alaskannut
February 11th, 2006, 06:35 PM
That, and the Rangers are the best;) . .

tell me about it...for the life of me I cannot figure out why they and Delta Force have never been mentioned/used on Star Gate(at least that I know of;))

ShadowMaat
February 11th, 2006, 06:47 PM
tell me about it...for the life of me I cannot figure out why they and Delta Force have never been mentioned/used on Star Gate(at least that I know of;))
Umm... because you can't have anyone who's better than SG-1? :P

dec55
February 11th, 2006, 06:55 PM
Like every episode with Sharon at the center of things....It always means that
it will be a excellent eppy.......:) Bye bye Billy.....you will be missed..

Blue Banrigh
February 11th, 2006, 07:10 PM
Does the general public know that Sharon is pregnant?

Amanda Eros
February 11th, 2006, 07:12 PM
tell me about it...for the life of me I cannot figure out why they and Delta Force have never been mentioned/used on Star Gate(at least that I know of;))

It would make sence to use them, but perhaps tptb couldn't get the rights to mention their names. That or the type of missions that they are trained for doesn't work well with the type of missions that the SGC runs.

Amanda Eros
February 11th, 2006, 07:14 PM
Does the general public know that Sharon is pregnant?

Whoever leaked the info to the fleet that she's on Galactica might have noticed that she's showing. However that photo that they had wasn't a really good one.

boodoosy
February 11th, 2006, 07:30 PM
I have to defend Dee and try to stop everyone from hating on her. When Billy proposed to Dee, I thought she would feel guilty and accept his proposal to spare his feelings. That would have been the WRONG thing to do. Instead, she was honest with him and refused his proposal. Although it may have been hard for Billy to accept, it was the honest and RIGHT thing to do. To many times on TV have I seen someone accepting a proposal out of sympathy. Just when I thought Dee would do the same, she surprised me with her honesty, and prevented the situation from becoming complicated.

Dee also tried to save Billy's bacon by strongly advising him to stop watching the armed guards. She also reminded him that he is not a soldier and should not do anything to get himself hurt. But for some reason, Billy chose to ignore the advice of a trained warrior and went out with guns a blazing. In the end, Dee was right AGAIN! Billy's death, although sad, has to be pinned on Billy, not Dee.

To me, Billy was just too immature, and there is nothing wrong with that. Most of us have learned about love through hurt and pain. This was Billy's time to learn that same lesson, however, no one was there to comfort him and tell him how it is all a part of life, and it is more likely to happen again than not.

Sharon, of course, is great as ever. Just when you think know her, she flips it on you. Refusing to divulge the identities of other Cylons in the fleet should have put Adama on notice. She really can't be trusted. Maybe she is plotting against the humans or maybe she is saving this bit of info as her ace to be played when it is most advantageous to her. Who knows?

I loved it when Tigh was point blank brutal in his honesty with Adama about Sharon. Adama needed to hear that kind of candor from somone close to him.

There is so much more I want to comment on, but I have forgotten the rest. Anyway, I just wanted to tell everyone to stop the Dee Hate.

ShadowMaat
February 11th, 2006, 07:33 PM
You can ask folks to stop the Dee Hate all you like, but as for telling us... No. I make up my OWN mind about things and form my OWN opinions about actions and characters and I still dislike Dee and what she did. I'm well within my right to feel that way and to express my displeasure.

boodoosy
February 11th, 2006, 07:55 PM
Wow, ShadowMaat,
I wasn't really trying to "tell" people to do anything. Sorry you understood it that way, but the post was in jest. Tell you what, to make you feel better, then I am ASKING people to stop hating on Dee. Hope that makes it easier for you.

At any rate, I am curious why so many hate Dee. What has she done to earn so much hate?

thebiggfrogg
February 11th, 2006, 09:10 PM
Another thing I liked about this episode was how Starbuck's playing fast and loose bit her in the a**. I love the characterization of all the Galactica characters flaws and all, but since everyone seems to dis Lee in favor of Starbuck I thought it might be a good moment to be a contrarian. Starbuck's hotshot attitude and desire to play on the "bleeding edge" is bound to catch up with her and create a problem or two (Starbuck says this herself before she makes a pass at Lee and talks about how sooner or later they will have a bad day and they will not live to see the end of the fleet's journey). Starbuck feels the need to be the one storming in, but was that the right choice (Ellen Tigh's lack of poker face aside)? If I remember correctly she was seen fleetwide in a news doc about Galactica. Maybe, just, maybe one of the terrorists might have seen her in that and could ID her (and the chances of that are probably even higher, because with these terrorists' obsession I would think they would go out of their way to watch anything that focused on the military). I loved the whole friendly fire thing. Just like Galactica not to do the usual Yippi-ki-yi-yeah! As someone else on this post said almost everything went wrong. Great stuff!

thebiggfrogg
February 11th, 2006, 09:17 PM
Wow, ShadowMaat,
I wasn't really trying to "tell" people to do anything. Sorry you understood it that way, but the post was in jest. Tell you what, to make you feel better, then I am ASKING people to stop hating on Dee. Hope that makes it easier for you.

At any rate, I am curious why so many hate Dee. What has she done to earn so much hate?

These characters are so intricate that I think everyone can bounce their own personal experience off them and react. Maybe there are a lot of "Billys" out there or "FOBs" ("Friends of Billys"). I had my own experience and my ex-wife was Dee, but with seven or eight years of reflection time I can forgive my ex (hence I can understand the what is happening with Dee and don't hate her). Again, Galactica characters--warts and all. If I want heroic perfection and moral rectitude I'll tune into Superman (which is fun in its own right). If I want something that makes me think and that can start a discussion with a friend, I'll tune into Galactica.

Korora
February 11th, 2006, 10:35 PM
Just in light of the Billy/Dee/Apollo/Starbuck relationship tangle, I find it interesting that most people are focusing only on Dee's actions in the negative light. While I agree that it's unfair of her to have treated Billy in such a roundabout manner while feeling out her status with Lee, I don't think Dee is so deserving of reproach. For one, while she wasn't entirely truthful with Billy about her feelings, there are no indications that she was actually cheating on him with the CAG. She never once *threw* herself at Lee, rather only having asked him, once, what he felt about the situation between them. And while she was, in a way, leading Billy on by not addressing her attraction to Apollo, she wasn't actively pursuing the latter. I still don't agree with her silence in the matter, nor her *speculative* date with Lee on the Cloud 9 in this episode, but I don't think she was too much in the wrong.

Also, Dee didn't just jump on Lee after Billy died - at least not entirely from a romantic angle, anyway. Someone really important to her just died, after she caused him a considerable amount of pain. Not only is there guilt there, but the person that she jilted him for (who she obviously cares for a great deal, as well) is also in critical condition. Emotional fragility should send her to the side of someone that she holds dear. Added to the intense worry for his safety, it only makes sense that she'd run to Lee.

On the whole angle of a woman doing a prospective partner wrong, actually, I think Starbuck is really more of a fitting candidate. Given the fact that she knows, or at least has very clear signs, of Lee's feelings for her, and that she continuously flirts, or initiates...contact with him, while at the same time pushing him away. That, and she's "hung up on a dead guy". Over all, she's being quite unfair. Particularly since she's not only using him on an emotional level to deal with her own pain and confusion, but also on a physical level - which for many people, is what really crosses the line in these situations.

And then there's Lee, who can't seem to make up his mind about *anyone*. And being such a stereotypical man in the process, as well. Ugh.

The only one who hasn't done anything reprehensible in this situation is Billy. I'm sad that he died, really. I was rooting for him. And you could tell that Dee cared for him - quite a bit. And Roslin. Ack - that scene made me teary. I'm rather disappointed that there won't be more to do with Billy in the future. I had such high hopes.

AutumnDream
February 11th, 2006, 11:22 PM
Since Epiphanies, the show hasn't quite been the same. Not as good, actually. It seems like the episodes have been focusing in on a certain set of characters instead of using them all, and the much-cherished continuous storylines of BSG have been shoved away in favor of more bottled episodes. I can't imagine that this will go on forever, but it really has taken a lot from the show. Not to mention the lack of multiple plot threads within one episode. It used to be like, "Meanwhile on Caprica!", "Meanwhile on Colonial One!", "Meanwhile on Kobol!". Now it's just, "Meanwhile in the lounge!".

Also: Where's my favorite guy Gaius, and his magical imaginary girl? He wasn't in Scar either. While I'm at it, more Helo too please. :D

I don't think anyone cares about this Lee/Dee crap. It just flew out of nowhere and nobody thinks it's cool. This show has way too many other, cooler things to explore to be lingering on stuff like that.

Like everyone else, I'm not pleased about Billy's death either. >.<

Lady Snow
February 11th, 2006, 11:31 PM
Also: Where's my favorite guy Gaius, and his magical imaginary girl? He wasn't in Scar either. While I'm at it, more Helo too please. :D

And where on Galactica is the Chief? And really, whatever happened to the Pegasus' previous CAG (the one whose name escapes me at the moment)?

I hope they start using this awesome ensemble cast again sometime soon. :)

Vyrsace
February 12th, 2006, 12:18 AM
I don't care what negative angle everyone is trying to view this episode at, but I must insist that this is one great episode. My heart was pumping with anxiety to see what happened next. There wasn't really any singular moment that I can say was 'the best moment'. Throughout the whole episode, it was like a quiet drama playing out that you weren't quite sure why everything was happening but still watched and listened only because you couldn't quite draw any conclusions until the very end.

I think everyone is getting to comfortable with the fact that the last few recent episodes were a bit less packed with climatic upturns around every corner and are getting to comfortable with bad comments. How else do you expect the local drama episodes to end before they get back to the cylon scenarios and such? Say they scripped Scar and Sacrifice, then continued onwards with finding Earth again? Then what? Would we complain that they left these subplots were ignored? too short? No matter what we're fancying ourselves into being tough customers and, eventually, we won't be able to see anything else than a negative light.

Criticsm is quite over-rated. If you're going to be unsatisified with every aspect of the show (or whatever you fanaticize about) then, by ALL MEANS, do yourself the favor and stop participating (watching, doing, listening, etc.). Take up journalism or some other type of constructive processing, because you're only hurting yourself from doing something you spend an hour to watch only to find it sub-par with everything else that you find better. Why not watch what you think is better? Criticsm is a comparison of what is good to what is bad and making judgement with that basis, right? Well there have been plenty of Battlestar Galactica episodes to judge if you like it or if you don't. If you don't like it by now then just plainly stop and I mean STOP. Otherwise sit back, watch, and ENJOY. Choose.

Speakfire
February 12th, 2006, 02:34 AM
Pegasus's previous CAG Captain Taylor AKA Stinger isn't coming back to the show. In the podcast, RDM says that he had other acting obligations and would not be returning, which was a shame because the guy was such a jerk

stop
February 12th, 2006, 03:39 AM
You can see at gateworld a couple of pictures of episode 16 sacrifice you see there that Lee and Dee are kissing but I did not see that during the episode did I watched a incomplete episode or what

http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/s2/graphics/216_07.shtml

http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/s2/graphics/216_08.shtml

Aussie_86
February 12th, 2006, 04:18 AM
I do not like Dee anymore. why? Because, i used to like her. I thought she was sweet and honest. Now, i don't. Why? Because, Billy proposes to her, and straight away, she's on a date with Apollo... Becasue Billy Proposed to her, and is now dead, and she's gone straight to Apollo. In the last scene where she's sittin with Apollo, i was half expecting her to go "we aren't doing this anymore", for the main reson of respect. A man who loved her, who wanted to spend the rest of his life with her, is now dead, adn she'd been lookin at someone else... have a lil respect damn tramp!

Apart from that, i wish next week's episode would be a starbuck episode... just to see what she's going through now. Yeah, but, i dont think so.

Where's Baltar? I think he's up to something, and i'd hate it if in one episode he just pops up going "hey, look what i've been doing for the timespan of the last couple of episodes"


Overall, on the entire episode, i was suprised. I'd watched the "next weeks preview" on Scifi.com for this ep, and was like "oh wow, how many movies have been done on this??? Another one! Woohoo (sarcastic)". But, i was very, very, suprised.

Keep up the good stuff!

Blue Banrigh
February 12th, 2006, 04:38 AM
I do not like Dee anymore. why? Because, i used to like her. I thought she was sweet and honest. Now, i don't. Why? Because, Billy proposes to her, and straight away, she's on a date with Apollo... Becasue Billy Proposed to her, and is now dead, and she's gone straight to Apollo. In the last scene where she's sittin with Apollo, i was half expecting her to go "we aren't doing this anymore", for the main reson of respect. A man who loved her, who wanted to spend the rest of his life with her, is now dead, adn she'd been lookin at someone else... have a lil respect damn tramp!
She's a tramp because she's keeping vigil over a friend who nearly died?

Agent_Dark
February 12th, 2006, 04:39 AM
I do not like Dee anymore. why? Because, i used to like her. I thought she was sweet and honest. Now, i don't. Why? Because, Billy proposes to her, and straight away, she's on a date with Apollo... Becasue Billy Proposed to her, and is now dead, and she's gone straight to Apollo. In the last scene where she's sittin with Apollo, i was half expecting her to go "we aren't doing this anymore", for the main reson of respect. A man who loved her, who wanted to spend the rest of his life with her, is now dead, adn she'd been lookin at someone else... have a lil respect damn tramp!

So she should have accepted Billy's proposal instead even though she knew she had feelings for Apollo? Then sought comfort with Lee while her fiance was lying dead?
A big part of the grieving process is seeking comfort in people who still live.

ShadowMaat
February 12th, 2006, 05:26 AM
She led Billy on. She knew she didn't love him, she was actively pursuing another man, she used him as "consolation" when Lee originally rejected her, but she never actually broke it off with him. Hell, technically, I don't think she even told him it was over when he proposed, she just said she couldn't marry him. If she knew she didn't want him, she should have told him. And just because it's a "realistic" reaction to hide it and put off the confrontation doesn't mean I have to like it. I'd hate it in a real person and I hate it in Dee.

And no, Lee wasn't much better. He led Dee on, flirting in a heavy-handed manner and then brushing her off when she confronted him. But he still agreed to have drinks with her and while we weren't shown the context of how they came to be in that lounge, I had the definite impression that they were "together". He certainly never told Billy "it's not what you think" when Billy came upon them. If it wasn't a date, if they'd just bumped into each other, he could have said so. Billy might not have believed him, but at least it'd be out there.

I don't like either character, although my dislike of Lee extends a lot deeper and for more reasons.

titans
February 12th, 2006, 05:54 AM
Wow, ShadowMaat,
I wasn't really trying to "tell" people to do anything. Sorry you understood it that way, but the post was in jest. Tell you what, to make you feel better, then I am ASKING people to stop hating on Dee. Hope that makes it easier for you.

At any rate, I am curious why so many hate Dee. What has she done to earn so much hate?

Why people hate Dee??? Hmmm...

1. She broke poor Billy's heart. She led him on all the while pining over Capt. WhiteBread Apollo and instead of breaking thigs off when she started having feelings for Apollo she let's him go. In the end he dies with a broken heart.

2. She looks like a deformed hobbit!

spankme
February 12th, 2006, 08:36 AM
Yes, I too was sad to see Billy die, but since he was clearly a Cylon sleeper agent we can all take heart in the fact that we will see a healthy copy of him again one day. ;)

ShadowMaat
February 12th, 2006, 08:37 AM
And angry Billy thirsting for revenge... Shades of Fifth, there. I could like that. ;)

LoneStar1836
February 12th, 2006, 08:41 AM
During the Battle of the Bakara Market back in 1993, a US Ranger survived for several hrs with an unexploded RPG anti-tank rocket lodged in his chest...when it comes to injury survival, the human body can be a lot more resilient than many give it credit for.And that was after he'd already been shot in the shoulder by small arms fire while driving. Plus he had his lower left arm severed by that RPG. Not to mention another guy who had his complete lower torso including his pelvis blown off by a RPG that hit his truck and survived to make it back to the base (in a state of consciousness no less) only to die on the flight to Germany. Yeah if you want to read about some real men, read Black Hawk Down by Mark Bowden. Great book.


Pegasus's previous CAG Captain Taylor AKA Stinger isn't coming back to the show. In the podcast, RDM says that he had other acting obligations and would not be returning, which was a shame because the guy was such a jerkI had heard that. Pitty. I liked the character and wanted to see more of him. I wanted some other pilots from the Pegasus for our guys to interact with, even if it meant they would be like two circling bulls trying to prove who was dominant.


I thought the end scenes were interesting. Roslin having someone who she considered her son (Billy) dieing and Boomer lying on the bed. I wonder if those scenes are foreshadowing something on their behalfs?That Billy's a Cylon and he'll return to have his revenge against Dee for dumping his lovable Cylon self. :D

In all seriousness, I thought those scenes were a bit creepy. At least the ones with Adama and Boomer. How many times is he going to go in there and ponder whatever he is pondering while standing over her dead remains?

I guess they could be foreshadowing (spoiler for upcoming ep) Downloaded. Now that would be interesting for Adama to again encounter the specific Sharon that actually shot him. I can't wait till they return to Caprica at the end of the season. The season looks like it's about to ratchet the action back up again.

Vienna_Smiles
February 12th, 2006, 09:53 AM
Yeah if you want to read about some real men, read Black Hawk Down by Mark Bowden. Great book.




Illuminating and eye-opening read! Just finished re-reading 1776 by David MucCullough.

THSEX1138
February 12th, 2006, 10:27 AM
I loved it when Tigh was point blank brutal in his honesty with Adama about Sharon. Adama needed to hear that kind of candor from somone close to him.

Excellent point. I believe that the main reasons these characters affect us all on an emotional level is great writing and some absolutely superb acting from the people in this cast. I cannot stand Saul Tigh as a character and this is because Michael Hogan is so AWESOME! The little things in his performances like having his face twitch, blinking at the right moments when someone tells him something he doesn't want to hear make him so believable. What I can't understand (even though there were some episodes that touched on their past) is why Adama continues to trust this man so implicitly. Saul had a great scene in Sacrifice but I wish the writers would do more to explain this unyielding trust. I hate Saul Tigh and view him as a misguided drunk and a danger to the fleet however with his comment to Adama about Sharon you can't help but root for the guy.


http://fapomatic.com/07/28012.jpg

kharn the betrayer
February 12th, 2006, 11:48 AM
What I can't understand (even though there were some episodes that touched on their past) is why Adama continues to trust this man so implicitly.


im pretty shure the makers explained this in one of their Season 1 pod casts (I think it was the one for Tigh me up Tigh me down) though I would have to go back and rewatch it again sometime later

The Shadow
February 12th, 2006, 12:02 PM
Awsome ep!!!!!!!!! Everything went wrong!!!!!! NOT BILLY!!!!!!!

Stopping the bleeding through sheer manily willpower?????
Wow, that's deep....like you can really do that, I would like to see you try.... I know I'm probably the youngest one here (14 years old girl) so I guess people would just see my comments as unworthy.....but hear this, my friend Eric is a fully trained Navy personnel who got shot just like Lee and he passed out too, does that make him a sissy wuss?? I don't think so....get real people, if anyone can stop bleeding through sheer willpower I would bow and call him a God.... Lee is not a God, he's a flawed young man who has to everyday live up to his father's greatness.

As for dodging the shot....it was FRIENDLY fire...do you think Lee expected Kara to shoot him when he tries to get up and help.... would you expect to be shot by someone on your side...it's life people...I think some people would like to believe that they would be strong and suck it up if it happened to them, but they have never been in that situation before so what makes them so sure that they could do it???

If people are going to make a comment like that they better be able to back it up.....I know I would pass out anyway....so I'm not gonna say Lee is a wuss.

As for Billy, it is kinda his fault..... Dee told him not to try and get the gun and he just ignored it. I know he wants to help but you can't blame Dee for his death......now I would blame Dee for breaking Billy's heart, but at least she was being honest and truthful about how she cannot marry him, I like that in a person.

Kara was a total mess that day, I think she deserved the "cold shoulder" from Adama for telling her not to go to the 2nd rescue mission. Kara kinda cause Zak's death, and now she's gone and shot Lee too. You can't blame Adama for getting a little cold....it's his son after all. It's about time Kara learn that she can't get away with everything...

Elen Tigh....how does Saul stand her......she should have died instead of Billy....that B*****

I can almost see a trace of relief on Adama's face when Lee answered his calls with a weak moan.....anything would have made Adama happy.... it's his son....nice job with the lady Sesha for asking him is he willing to risk his son's life.....;)

Roslin crying over Billy and straightening his hair was totally believable.....he is kinda like a son to her....."Someone took their vitamins this morning." what a great line.....:)

I'm gonna miss Billy.... what happen to that Sesha lady???? I doubt Adama or Roslin would be happy with her, for indirectly causing Lee to get shot and Billy killed....:confused:

ShadowMaat
February 12th, 2006, 12:10 PM
re: manly willpower- Can't speak for the others, but I was being sarcastic. Just having a bit of fun with the subject. ;)

re: Billy's fault- And if he hadn't tried to grab the gun Dee would almost certainly be the one on the slab. Wossname said, "Kill the girlfriend." That's what the gunman was preparing to do when Billy interfered.

Lady Snow
February 12th, 2006, 12:45 PM
... what happen to that Sesha lady???? I doubt Adama or Roslin would be happy with her, for indirectly causing Lee to get shot and Billy killed....:confused:

She died. The last shot of her was her corpse laying on top of Boomer's.

aaobuttons
February 12th, 2006, 12:50 PM
Besides that I wonder if they have done any studies on why certain people survive their injuries and others don't. Does one's mental state of mind have something to do with it. If their body is tence or relaxed when hit, the amount of muscle the person has. Perhaps even the pulse of the person's heart rate might have something to do with it. I don't know.


I don't know about official studies, but we were taught in the police academy that more people die from shock after being shot than from actually being shot. That's why you'll hear that someone was shot in the leg or arm or shoulder and dies but the guy who was high on PCP and was shot 5 times was just fine. Maybe Apollo has just been trained to stay calm and wait for help while Billy (never having that training) didn't stand a chance.

Easter Lily
February 12th, 2006, 12:58 PM
My husband whose turned into a bigger BSG fan than I am, summed it up perfectly... The show is turning into a soap opera...

My reaction to this episode is mixed... *Sigh* I've expressed my anti-Lee/Dee vehemence elsewhere so I'll leave that alone here. Suffice to say, I don't care for it.

What I liked...
Billy *sob* we loved thee much. His heroism and his integrity were intact. Unlike certain individuals whose names we won't mention here. Roslin's reaction to his lifeless body in the morgue was beautifully done. I wept with her.

Adama, as he leaned over Lee's unconscious body, trying to revive his son... the urgency in his voice was marvellously believable.
Wonderful stuff... I wouldn't mind if this show was mostly about father and son... I could live with it.

Kara... as she realised the horror of what she'd done. I liked her much more in this episode than I did in last week's belligerence fest.

After the last few episodes (although Black Market was okay), I'm suddenly looking forward to Baltar/Six shennegans...

Easter Lily
February 12th, 2006, 01:03 PM
What I can't understand (even though there were some episodes that touched on their past) is why Adama continues to trust this man so implicitly. Saul had a great scene in Sacrifice but I wish the writers would do more to explain this unyielding trust. I hate Saul Tigh and view him as a misguided drunk and a danger to the fleet however with his comment to Adama about Sharon you can't help but root for the guy.
Because he is honest... he says it like it is... and loyal...
Adama, from what I can see values honesty and loyalty above all things.

Yanks4Life23519
February 12th, 2006, 01:12 PM
omg I thought this episode was really good! I had never seen the show before and I had been meaning to watch it. I saw previews for this episode and I knew I had to start with this one! OMG...Lee Adama is super hott and sexy! I thought he was amazing in this episode! I love hostage type episodes and this one was great!

entil2001
February 12th, 2006, 03:26 PM
It seems as though my opinions fall in line with Ron Moore’s own opinions on the podcasts, which is sometimes amusing. I say that because his reactions are far more extreme than my own. He was a lot more critical of “Black Market” than I was in the end, and he was a bit more impressed by “Scar” than I turned out to be. This time around, though, we share a certain dissatisfaction that can’t be completely defined.

There’s a lot that I liked about this episode. Dana Delaney does a very good job with a difficult part. In a lot of ways, this is a follow-up on the concepts brought up by Admiral Cain and her people. As I said then, there’s a certain amount of justification for treating Boomer like a machine. Even she would be quick to point out that she’s not human. And there’s reason to believe that Adama is treating Boomer as if she was the human being he remembers.

But she’s also exactly what Adama mentions: a potential military asset. He would be foolish to listen to everything she says without some kind of verification, but his instincts aren’t completely wrong. Even if the fleet discovered that the Cylons held the hybrid in primary importance, there would be reason to leave Boomer and the child alive, if only to attempt understanding of what the Cylons want. (In fact, one could argue that holding what the Cylons want is a good start towards future survival.)

And so this episode, on the face of it, is structured very well to test the resolve of three very important people in the fleet: Adama, Tigh, and Roslin. I can tell, even without Moore’s commentary, that the intention was to use that as a trigger for the philosophical debate over the value of a military asset over the cohesion of the fleet vs. giving in to terrorism. Underneath it all is the love triangle between Dee, Billy, and Lee, which has been building for quite a while.

The problem for me was very simple. I was able to predict from the very beginning that something horrible was coming for Billy. I had no idea that the actor was in demand and therefore being let go in a memorable way, but the episode began in a way that suggested some final moment to come. But even as that side of the episode was telegraphed, the underlying philosophical debate surrounding the hostage situation never really went as far as I would have liked.

For all that, I’m far more impressed by the brutal escalation of the episode than the final act itself. The botched rescue attempt was notable for the frank bloodletting, and the effect that shooting Lee will inevitably have on Starbuck. The end of the hostage situation should have been equally brutal, but since Billy’s death was expected, it didn’t have much impact. The gambit with the previously killed Boomer was rather obvious as well. The only thing in the final act that got my attention was Roslin’s grief, which struck me as very genuine.

Ever since “Resurrection Ship: Part II”, the season has been searching for some sense of direction. I thought that Baltar’s actions in “Epiphanies” would have been the first step in the next phase of the arc, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. At the same time, I noted that the destruction of the Cylon fleet would inevitably force the story inward, leaving the writers to explore the effects of recent events on the fleet as a whole, and that’s what we’ve gotten. Now that the episodes should be turning back to the arc, I hope the quality will return to a more consistent form.

LoneStar1836
February 12th, 2006, 09:23 PM
re: manly willpower- Can't speak for the others, but I was being sarcastic. Just having a bit of fun with the subject. ;)Nah. We thought you were serious. ;):P Sir Bleeds-a-lot needs to suck it up.:D

P.S. Poor Apollo is still one of my fav characters even if this particular storyline has cast a shadow on him for the time being. :(


Because he [Tigh] is honest... he says it like it is... and loyal...
Adama, from what I can see values honesty and loyalty above all things.Too true.

Tigh was great in this episode. As much as I love to hate Ellen (you gotta admit her character adds something to the show though so they can't do away with her yet), it would have driven Tigh over the edge if she'd been killed. I'd much rather see a sober Tigh on screen than a drunk one. Not sure he could ever recover form that or much less forgive Adama for letting her be killed.

And someone up thread mentioned that maybe Adama didn't mean what he said in "You Can't Go Home Again" in regards to never leaving Lee behind. I think he will still do whatever it takes to protect Lee. Period. He just hadn't exhausted all his options yet before finally having to breakdown and "cooperate". Maybe he didn't want it to seem that he was giving into their demands so easily, yet all along he had planned on giving them the other Sharon's body.


Illuminating and eye-opening read! Just finished re-reading 1776 by David MucCullough.If only I had time to actually read a book these days. American history is my favorite subject so I’m more of a non-fiction reader if I pick up a book. Not so much a fan of the Revolutionary War as I am the Civil War, but I’ll have to tuck the name of that book away. :)

AutumnDream
February 13th, 2006, 08:06 AM
re: Billy's fault- And if he hadn't tried to grab the gun Dee would almost certainly be the one on the slab. Wossname said, "Kill the girlfriend."

Which is precisely what about 90% of us would have prefered. :D

MASON
February 13th, 2006, 01:28 PM
Having caved and listened to the podcast before watching this episode, I was actually surprised with how much I enjoyed it. I was surprised at the strength of the actors performances, they've been a little hit and miss this season (generally hit). It's too bad they hadn't used Billy more often in debates between Roslin and Adama, his lines worked really well.

But I really hope they drop this Lee/Dee thing...it just doesn't work.

I loved the music in this episode, it was really interesting, it seemed to draw a lot of cues from the miniseries, but twist them and blow them up to carry the ideas that have matured with the series.

voigtstr
February 13th, 2006, 04:54 PM
At the end of the ep, Sharon saying no to Adama, that she wouldnt reveal other cylons in the fleet, is she doing this to protect herself? If she gave away other cylons, she wouldnt be the military asset that she is now.

The fade to white at the end... was she uploading data to the cylon fleet?

madk99
February 14th, 2006, 07:31 AM
Remember that line that Roslin thru at Billy back early in the run??
"You don't know much about women, do you?"
OK, Billy. Here's the deal.
lesson 1. At least once in your life a girl will rip your heart out, fillet it, and feed to her new boyfriend with sauteed onions and a nice merlot. (easy ladies -- we all know this goes both ways;) )
Lesson 2. Take a good lesson from Bo Donaldson and the Heywoods. Ahemmm.
"Billy don't be a hero, don't be a fool with your life.
Billy don't be a hero, come back and make me your wife.
And as he started to go, she said Billy keep your head lowww-woww-wowww.
Billy, don't be a hero. Come back to meeeeeeeeeee!"

(Those that know will be singing this one today!!!) hehehe:D

pixelator
February 14th, 2006, 07:39 AM
My very first post, and it's got to be a negative rant. As much as I've come to quickly love this show and be so uplifted by the elevation of the 'sci fi series' to a truly cutting edge, acclaimed human drama, the episodes since Resurrection Ship Part II have been a severe letdown. This only showed that the slump continues.

Lee/Dee is awful and makes me dislike both characters. Kara continues to mutate into a whiny, helpless shell of her former self. Adama seems less and less capable of really fixing problems and the entire 'focus on the fleet' theme as pertains to the increasingly shrill terrorist plotline is utterly boring and unbelievable.

PLEASE bring us back to the stark contrast of human spirit vs. the cold steel of the Cylons and the grungy hallways of the Galactica! I can understand wanting the eventual paring of Lee and Kara to be somewhat roundabout and slow in coming, but having both of them jumping in the sack with every other member of the cast isn't a good approach.

The initial Pegasus episodes were SO very good (my jaw is still on the floor), here's hoping that wasn't the plateau...

cls12vg30
February 14th, 2006, 07:50 AM
I thought this was a great episode, for lost of reasons. It was a good illustration of how quickly everything can go completely wrong in a situation like that.

I was very surprised and delighted with the terrorist's choice of weapons, seems they had a fetish for firearms from the former Communist Bloc. The pistol that Lee takes and then foolishly surrenders was a CZ-52, standard issue for the Czechoslovakian Army from the '50s through the '80s. Sesha's pistol was a Makarov, I believe either a Russian or East German model. And the small machine pistol used by the other terrorist was a Czech Vz.61 Skorpion. I also noticed that when Apollo was holding the CZ against the back of the terrorist's head, the hammer was down on the pistol, and he couldn't have fired that particular weapon without pulling the hammer back first. (I know it's just a Sci-fi show, but if they're going to use real-life weapons, then we can point this kind of stuff out.)

Is it me or did it seem like Apollo and Billy were shot in almost the same place, the right side of the chest? When Lee was lying there I figured that he almost certainly had a punctured lung. Maybe Billy got hit more than once and I didn't see it, but if not that was a mistake, someone hit in the right side of the chest would not be killed so instantly as to have their eyes stay open, and if they were both hit there, why have Lee recover so nicely and stay conscious, and Billy dead before he hit the floor? Especially since it looked like Billy was hit by a round from the machine pistol, if memory serves that thing is a .32, not very powerful, and it's very unlikely that someone would die from one hit to the chest from that. Now that CZ-52 that Apollo surrendered, they (the characters) are fortunate that no one was shot with that. But pistol bullets are generally not the all-powerful man-killers that many shows and movies make them out to be.

It'll be interesting to see where they go with the whole Dee/Apollo/Starbuck triangle. I can't see Apollo and Starbuck ever really getting together, they have too much baggage and grate on each other too much.

I think Dee is quite attractive, (especially all prettied up as she was in the bar) a good officer, the games she was playing with Billy in this episode were no worse than the games that many single young women play, nothing evil about it. I'm sure Billy's proposal shocked her and she wanted to buy some time.

Too bad about Billy, but at least he died a good death, swallowing his fear and doing what he thought he must to protect Dee and the others. Good man, not the stuttering boy we saw in the early part of the series. He would have made a good President, eventually.

prion
February 14th, 2006, 08:13 AM
Shocking? Not really. Ever since TPTB started shoving Lee and Dee on top of one another, it was pretty obvious Billy was gonna get slagged.

But yeah, it's still upsetting to have one's bad feelings confirmed. :(

And all my stupid friends are on the West Coast so I can't even seek consolation there. *sigh*

They should've just sent Billy to me. I'd have taken MUCH better care of him. And helped him pick out better clothes. ;)

I actually saw this one and thought, gee, the "italian restaurant" restaurant has made it to scifi programs. Anybody who watched action adventure shows in the 80s knows what that term means ;)

Astaire310
February 14th, 2006, 11:33 AM
Hey cls12vg30--Thanks for the weapon descriptions. I love prop info like that.

With regard to the wound issue, I think that Apollo was hit on his right side just below his shoulder/armpit and it looked like Billy was shot on his left side near the heart (a little closer to the armpit than the center of the chest, but at heart level.)

I am hoping that Doc Cottle will explain Apollo's wound/survival a little more on Friday. I love Doc Cottle...

waswas
February 14th, 2006, 12:48 PM
I tink the Pegasus CAG got killed by scar. Could anyone verify with the Podcast?

Cag
February 14th, 2006, 09:36 PM
Is it me or did it seem like Apollo and Billy were shot in almost the same place, the right side of the chest?

I was thinking the same thing. Apollo lasted several hours with his wound, but Bill dies like he just got hit in the head or something.

I wish he could have stayed alive at least for a few minutes to say something to Dee before he died

Easter Lily
February 15th, 2006, 01:08 AM
I've been thinking about whether my dislike for elements of this episode is based on the direction taken by the two characters under discussion here. Perhaps. Do I dislike them as individuals? Not necessarily...
As far as I can tell, there are a whole range of reasons why people dislike Lee and Dee and it isn't all systemic. Dislike of the pairing doesn't automatically mean dislike of the individual characters.
I find the whole idea of Lee and Dee not so much distasteful but uninteresting. I suppose we can read all kinds of elements into it but having been informed that there were a number of scenes that landed on the cutting room floor, it is really hard to see what the intent of this relationship would be except as a plot device. It can't have really been that important in the scheme of things if a lot of it was shot and then taken out at the last moment. I don't pretend to know much about film making but it is my impression that romance is one of the hardest things to write and develop in a narrative. The writer has to be convinced fully of the pairing and thereby convince the reader/audience as well. Now it sounds like TPTB weren't entirely convinced by some aspect of this relationship which is probably why most of us aren't either. I can see now why I've thought from the first that the Lee/Dee affair was rather contrived.
I suppose most of us here are fairly hardcore scifi fans... we expect a lot... Some of us have been around a long time to have seen more than a few plots recycled several times over. I am critical of this episode and the last few (not so much Black Market) because there seems to be a reliance on contrivances commonly used in soaps. I like BSG because of the way the character elements are woven into the overall intrigue. Lately, I sense more drawn out character moments than intrigue and while that has its place... it has made the show less distinctive and gradually less interesting in my opinion...
That's my excuse for the criticism and I'm sticking to it. ;)

justinbrett
February 15th, 2006, 03:12 AM
Just a question - how many near-death experiences are they going to give Lee this season?

Overall, a very good episode. A little bit more dynamic than 214 and 215 (focused on more than one main character) and has made the rest of the season interesting.

I don't really care about Billy. I guess the opens up the way for the Lee/Dee relationship - although I'd prefer a Lee/Starbuck relationship. This whole Lee/Dee thing has come out of left field and I really can't see it.

I can't believe there's only 4 more episodes left in S2. How long until S3 starts? July 06? I'm not really famiilar with US TV schedules. Ours run in calander years. The good thing about the big mid season break, is there's less time to wait between seasons.

Astaire310
February 15th, 2006, 06:24 AM
Just out of curiosity, I haven't seen all the episodes--How many times has Apollo been shot since the series began? What other wounds has he received?

Do characters heal awfully quickly on this show or have I just lost track of the timeline? I think that Kara should have needed six weeks rest after her injuries/surgeries on "The Farm" and that was nothing compared to the rehab time her knee needed after she crashlanded her viper several episodes earlier.

I try to judge elapsed time by Sharon's waistline, but that is probably not very accurate as she is a Cylon. She looks about 6 months along. Have they been at war for seven months now? How long has it been since Starbuck found the arrow on Caprica?

Thanks for your input!

Sisko197
February 15th, 2006, 12:24 PM
Thought this was a decent episode. I would prefer they return to the consistency of the arcs of last season, but it wasn't a terrible episode. Certainly, Billy's death added a bit of punch to the trio of sorrow eps that we've been subjected to since the high buzz of the destruction of the Res Ship.

That said, this confirmed something I've thought for a while.

Yes, kids, Dee is a cylon. Don't know if she's aware of it or not, but she is.

Last season, they did everything they could to make Dee the kind-hearted soul that hangs in the background, has the sweet relationship, and is in general a reliably good, if grunt-worthy, part of missions. Rather inconspicuous in this, making her a good and worthy Cylon as disguised and hidden as she would be as one.

This season, they have practically thrown her on top of Lee Adama. The Powers that Be have done a fair job of throwing wedges between her and Billy. No doubt, women can desire an "upgrade" of status by switching from one male to another, but does a woman go from sweet and reliable to lustful and opportunistic in a matter of four or so episodes?

I remember her spending a lot of quality time with Lee back when she was communicating bridge operations (under the Tigh Campaign) and there was no hint of a relationship. Not a single hint. Some time later, we see them training together and ever since then TPTB have quite literally forced these two characters together. I can't understand why a reasonable show with reasonable characterization and very human characters would take such an obvious tact with us. It does give the impression that this is a soap opera. One man's out, another man's in.

Unless there is an agenda that goes beyond a sex triangle. I suppose it's possible that TPTB desperately want Dee to have sex with someone and so with Billy out, they had to throw in a pinch hitter, but somehow I don't think that's necessary. Unless she's pivotal in some way that we have not seen yet.

Obviously, she can't connect to the President in any meaningful way now that the twit's dead, so who's the next obvious choice? Lee Adama. Being on the bridge is not quite the same as having sway over the Admiral's son who has sway over him. Sure, she convinced him to do something earlier in the season when he asked her in, but he sure hasn't asked her into his chambers again after the railing she gave him. He found out she had an opinion and that was that. No more quiet times with Dee.

It is obvious to me that at some point in the future that Dee will turn out to be a cylon to pave the way for Lee and Kara to be "justified" in the relationship they will have. A relationship that may be adversely affected by whatever Dr. Cylon did to her on Caprica.

Like Boomer, Dee behaves eraddically.

Starbuck is pretty consistent. Crazy at first, but understandably changed by realizing that instead of living on the edge in a life where she has no real home, no real relations, no hope of anything approaching a normal life, she meets someone and suddenly she realizes that death is actually more than just a stop at the end of the road.

But Dee's all over the place. That tells me TPTB are planning a shift for her. Nothing happens for no reason. In that scene in this episode, we have Tigh's wife looking bold and flashy as a thorn in their side, but it is Dee that is the problem.

And personally, I hope they toss her sweet butt out an airlock and let it whoosh. ;)

Lady Snow
February 15th, 2006, 02:23 PM
I tink the Pegasus CAG got killed by scar. Could anyone verify with the Podcast?

Stinger? We've discussed him elsewhere... can't remember where, though.

All I know is that the actor isn't coming back. We've not seen him since "Pegasus," and so I'd probably assume he was "lost" in the attack on the Resurrection Ship.

Beats me, though. I liked him.

verse1991
February 15th, 2006, 04:38 PM
Hello Everybody! THis is the first time i've done this, so i'd first like to announce how happy i am that there are in fact other people out there like me, who watch this show and enjoy it. Now about the episode:

Yes, like almost everybody else, i am sad that Billy died. That's an understatement actually. I liked him a lot. He was so sweet. Sigh. The innocent are the first to go...

Almost everybody has had something bad to say about the "Lee/Dee" relationship. I couldn't agree with you more. Really. It's not that I dislike either of them. I don't. They are both solid, likeable (most of the time) characters. But there is absolutely no chemistry between the two. I want Dee with Billy (sigh, i guess that can't happen anymore), and Lee with Starbuck. That would work out much better.

P.S. I am stupid. What is TPTB??????? Everybody refers to it, and i have no idea wut it is.

verse1991
February 15th, 2006, 05:05 PM
Oh by the way:

I too, hate Ellen Tigh, but if she died i would be kinda sad. I just watched Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down, and though she is a horrid woman, she is very very funny, and believable, and she is a very good actress. OH, and you may hate Ellen, but i hate Saul more. THey make an excellent couple.

Somebody asked how many times Apollo got hurt. None. Well not seriously anyway.

One last thing. That 14 year old with the Navy buddies: please please please be my friend. I am 14 and i am a girl. And none of my friends watch my show. So yeah. Please acknowledge my plea for friendship. Please.

Lady Snow
February 15th, 2006, 06:22 PM
P.S. I am stupid. What is TPTB??????? Everybody refers to it, and i have no idea wut it is.

"The Powers That Be," i.e. the people actually plotting the storylines, i.e. not us. :)

verse1991
February 15th, 2006, 06:33 PM
ahhhh. thanks so much. RDM i got. THat's not that hard. But who came up with TPTB, and where did that come from?

Lady Snow
February 15th, 2006, 06:35 PM
Um... it's just a saying. I've been using it in regular conversation far longer than I've been seeing it used online to refer to the writers on any TV show. I guess it's sort of a "Fate is out of our hands" type of saying...

Any other ideas?

verse1991
February 15th, 2006, 06:46 PM
Oh. Thanks again though.

ShadowMaat
February 15th, 2006, 06:49 PM
"The Powers That Be" is a term that has been around for a long, long time. Lots of people try to credit it to Angel, but it was around long before then. I know I saw it used in Anne McCaffrey's books, but even then it was an "old" term. Dunno the precise origin.

anotherquestion
February 15th, 2006, 08:52 PM
"The Powers That Be" is a term that has been around for a long, long time. Lots of people try to credit it to Angel, but it was around long before then. I know I saw it used in Anne McCaffrey's books, but even then it was an "old" term. Dunno the precise origin.
From the Bible. Romans 13:1. 'Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: The powers that be are ordained of God.' (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/288250.html)

ShadowMaat
February 16th, 2006, 03:24 AM
There ya go. Doesn't get much older or more classic than that. ;)

Anyway, I still think this was a weak, cookie cutter ep. Even ignoring that ridiculousness of the Lee/Dee thing, the story wasn't engaging. The "bad guys" weren't sympathetic, they weren't original, and they weren't interesting. I'll stand by my earlier comment that the writers should have concentrated on THAT instead of playing up the token romance crap.

verse1991
February 16th, 2006, 03:46 AM
Thanks for all the TPTB stuff.

mudguts
February 16th, 2006, 05:19 PM
This is my first post here so not sure whether the spoiler-related warnings are de rigeur from a browse through recent postings, but for what it's worth - the below comment won't only ruin the episode for you but also melt your eyeballs out of your skull if you didn't see the latest episode.



With that out of the way: Billy was weak and his death was inevitable. Moving on, since when is Lee hanging out with women he hasn't paid for, momentarily overlooking his recent coitus interruptus with Starbuck due to her Venus Flytrap approach to foreplay...? And considering the gigantic autopsy stitches on Boomer's corpse were a dead giveaway, couldn't they have just suited her up in something instead of just wheeling her in under nothing more than a sheet? It's wrong to assume a man presented with the opportunity, let alone a terrorist, isn't going to do a boobie-check just because the woman's dead.

userfriendly
February 17th, 2006, 02:41 AM
eeewww...

but of course, you're right... that would have been a better approach. one is always wiser afterwards :rolleyes: :D

Othere
February 18th, 2006, 02:30 AM
I don't know about official studies, but we were taught in the police academy that more people die from shock after being shot than from actually being shot. That's why you'll hear that someone was shot in the leg or arm or shoulder and dies but the guy who was high on PCP and was shot 5 times was just fine. Maybe Apollo has just been trained to stay calm and wait for help while Billy (never having that training) didn't stand a chance.

I thought he took a shot in the gut.

sci-fiGeek
February 18th, 2006, 01:36 PM
Hi everyone this is my first time posting in the forum but i'm delighted to have finally found kindred spirits! Anyway i was on the televisionwithoutpity website and according to their posts about Scar it was originally supposed to have been aired after Sacrifice. So that could be a reason for the serious lack of relationship continuity!
Gotta say though really not an advocate of the Dee/Lee relationship. It's just boring! I mean shes very nice and all but just not interested in their relationship.
Way more interested in the train wreck that is Apollo and Starbuck!

azarhal
February 19th, 2006, 08:07 AM
Hi everyone this is my first time posting in the forum but i'm delighted to have finally found kindred spirits! Anyway i was on the televisionwithoutpity website and according to their posts about Scar it was originally supposed to have been aired after Sacrifice. So that could be a reason for the serious lack of relationship continuity!
Gotta say though really not an advocate of the Dee/Lee relationship. It's just boring! I mean shes very nice and all but just not interested in their relationship.
Way more interested in the train wreck that is Apollo and Starbuck!

Actually that's not true, the shuffling thing of TWOP, Scar was always coming after Blackmarket and before Sacrifice. It's only fans trying to explain script/plot holes somehow.

The problem is the 1 month jump between episode to speed Sharon pregnancy.

Baby are bad for TV show.

Matt G
April 18th, 2006, 01:57 PM
OK...

1. Bloody hell, Edgar got scratched on 24 on Sunday then Billy gets scratched tonight! :(

2. Starbuck going undercover was asking for trouble - thought she was one of the bigger military names in the fleet.

3. Took me a minute to believe that Starbuck shot Lee.

4. This has to be the most annoying the Ellen Tigh has ever been.

5. I'm not holding a grudge against Dee on this - not too bothered about love triangles either though.

6. Knew exactly what Adama was planning as soon as he said 'we'll deliver the Cylon, dead".

7. OF COURSE Sharon's done a number on the Admiral, Al Queda operative alomst certainly do numbers on their supposed friends.

Happy_Gate
April 18th, 2006, 07:40 PM
OK...

1. Bloody hell, Edgar got scratched on 24 on Sunday then Billy gets scratched tonight! :(

2. Starbuck going undercover was asking for trouble - thought she was one of the bigger military names in the fleet.

3. Took me a minute to believe that Starbuck shot Lee.

4. This has to be the most annoying the Ellen Tigh has ever been.

5. I'm not holding a grudge against Dee on this - not too bothered about love triangles either though.

6. Knew exactly what Adama was planning as soon as he said 'we'll deliver the Cylon, dead".

7. OF COURSE Sharon's done a number on the Admiral, Al Queda operative alomst certainly do numbers on their supposed friends.
1. Bill got scratched becoz the actor playing him didn't want to sign a long term contract.
2. Starbuck was being Starbuck. She should have known better.
3. Me too.
4. Yup, agree with that. I kinda wished she had been caught in the crossfire. :P
5. Considering Billy's dead, it worked out pretty well for her didn't it. :P
6. Me, too.
7. Disagree with that. She'll prove her worth later.

MB.Eddie
January 2nd, 2007, 10:19 AM
Poor Billy. I liked his character. Pretty pointless way to die too in the end imo. Starbuck shooting Apollo was surprising, but her going in armed undercover was asking for trouble.

chevron3
December 4th, 2008, 06:00 PM
Billy died:(

Pharaoh Atem
December 4th, 2008, 06:06 PM
Billy died:(

:danielanime08:

and i've never enjoyed the laura roslin scenes quite as much since :(

Ishay
April 28th, 2009, 05:41 PM
You knew he was dead as soon as it showed him in the "previously on..." And then the proposal... Gods. Poor Billy. http://www.pushupstairs.com/images/emoticon/neptune/Animated/Sad/sad010.gif

At least he got to die a hero, saving the woman he loved. Dee had already killed him anyway, the gunman just finished the job.

pretty much i've never liked dee i hope billy dying makes a mark on her. and she finally decides what she wants in life

lordofseas
July 28th, 2009, 02:24 PM
I cried when Laura was in the morgue. :(

the fifth man
September 18th, 2010, 06:39 PM
My wife was very sad when Billy got killed off. She hated how he was treated by Dee.

Pharaoh Atem
September 18th, 2010, 08:35 PM
My wife was very sad when Billy got killed off. She hated how he was treated by Dee.

everyone hated how dee treated him.

Professor_S
June 16th, 2011, 11:24 AM
Dee... :mad: I was always pretty ambivalent towards her character, but this ep sealed it for me. The way she had been stringing Billy along (recall from earlier when Billy was worriedly apologising about "not making time" etc...) and then to pull this?! Then, at the end of the episode when she was practically fawning over Lee; did she care so little for Billy that he could be so quickly forgotten? But perhaps I'm being a bit harsh on Dee...

Oh man, Starbuck... so much for recon only...

Love the Adama/Sharon scenes. Such an interesting and complicated relationship.

Oh my word, the scene in the morgue with Roslin and Adama. MM's performance was nothing short of stunning. It's a frakking CRIME that she never won an Emmy. "It was a calculated risk." "It wasn't worth it." ....