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GateWorld
January 2nd, 2006, 07:52 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/2141.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px solid black" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888">GALACTICA SEASON TWO</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">BLACK MARKET</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 214</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
Lee becomes entangled with a mafia-like group of criminals when he investigates the murder of a Colonial officer -- and is reunited with a former lover.

<FONT SIZE=1><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
January 27th, 2006, 07:55 PM
It was an okay episode. I give it a ** 1/2.

Prometheus was a very interesting looking ship. And no Starbuck in the ep, or Pegasus for that matter.

somedude
January 27th, 2006, 07:57 PM
spoil me! I won't be able to watch it for another few hours, was it really that bad? Another filler?

walterIsTheMan
January 27th, 2006, 08:00 PM
no Starbuck in the ep
I know:(, I'm really dissapointed. Starbuck is my favorite part of the show:love:

kharn the betrayer
January 27th, 2006, 08:01 PM
Huh we saw the pegasus this episode


though..this is proberbly my least fav episode so far from either season...

Lee annoyed me me to death....and Dee........ gah..

I missed Starbuck

CKO
January 27th, 2006, 08:01 PM
i missed the first 15 or so mins (due to havin' to work) *curses the boss* but what i say i liked.

but then i was too busy droolin' over Lee.. have to watch it again to see what exactly i missed in the ep.

Amanda Eros
January 27th, 2006, 08:18 PM
Those poor children! Awe man, I don't know if I want to watch this show anymore. I know stuff like that goes on... there are people out there that have a desire to burn in hell, but that just turned my stomach. Though I understand that was what was needed to push Lee over the edge. (It's because of things like that, that keep me from watching the Law and Orders and the CSIs, you never know when something like that will pop up on one of those shows.)

LoneStar1836
January 27th, 2006, 08:31 PM
Well I’ll be a dissenting voice and say I really enjoyed it. :D

Yes it was very Lee centric, but I’ve been waiting for some more background story on him.

Though I agree with the *gah* feeling about this thing they are pushing between Lee and Dee.... It’s getting annoying.

And damn it really looked like they were choking poor Jamie. I thought he did a fine job of carrying the episode tonight. :)

Walter, you'll get your Starbuck next week. ;)



Yeah the implication of what the children were being sold for was disturbing, but then that kind of stuff seems to be a common. There are more perverted people out there than I care to think about. Cockroaches will always survive a nuclear holocaust....

ShadowMaat
January 27th, 2006, 09:08 PM
Decent ep. Not quite as thrilling as some of the others, but it still packed some oomph.

I, too, wish they'd drop the Lee/Dee crap. It's so stupid and artificial and obnoxious. And I like Billy, dammit!

Being one who is absolutely terrible with faces (I consistently fail to recognize Ben Browder whenever I look at the pics from SG-1), can someone tell me who the blonde woman was that Lee kept remembering? Are we supposed to know her?

Interesting direction to take Lee's character, with Chevon. Hearkens back to the original series and I kinda got an OS vibe off the ep, which is a bit strange since I was probably Boxey's age when I caught the reruns on TV and only ever paid attention to the daggit. LOL! Today's BSG is MUCH grittier than it was then, that's fer sure, and the subject matter was well handled, I guess.

Not sure about the loss of wossname from the Pegasus. Sounds like he wasn't the best of guys (and why oh why does the dark little part of me say he would have been one to go for the kids?) but the constant changing of command on Peg can't be good. Guess we'll see how it all turns out soon enough. :)

kharn the betrayer
January 27th, 2006, 09:34 PM
I, too, wish they'd drop the Lee/Dee crap. It's so stupid and artificial and obnoxious. And I like Billy, dammit!


I know I want more Billy GRRR we havnt seen him a whole lot which makes me sad :(

Dee has just been....to me latly


can someone tell me who the blonde woman was that Lee kept remembering? Are we supposed to know her?


Lee's Ex girlfreind I think..

ShadowMaat
January 27th, 2006, 09:39 PM
Lee's Ex girlfreind I think..
Kinda figured that much. ;) But she isn't someone we've seen before? I'm not missing something blatantly obvious to the entire rest of fandom? 'Cause, wow, that's probably a first. lol

Oh, and I've decided I don't like Dee anymore. Billy deserves someone better. :P

Amanda Eros
January 27th, 2006, 09:47 PM
Kinda figured that much. ;) But she isn't someone we've seen before? I'm not missing something blatantly obvious to the entire rest of fandom? 'Cause, wow, that's probably a first. lol

Oh, and I've decided I don't like Dee anymore. Billy deserves someone better. :P

I thought that it was a bit strange that the chick wanted to give him a baby, and than ran off after he told her no. Its like, if he's not ready, he's not ready... the guy had issues about his own parents marrage, it's no wonder why he's scare of that kind of commitment. (Was it just me or did it look like she was in the crowd that Zarick was walking though at the end of the episode?)

Yeah, not to happy about the way Dee is acting. It's like she's with Billy until something better comes along mainly Lee. Makes me wonder how much she actually cares about him. He's such a nice guy too, he does deserve a girl who will love him for who he is and not let the eyes wonder.

kharn the betrayer
January 27th, 2006, 09:49 PM
Dee.....yeah Billy does deserve better this who Lee/Dee relationship just wooshed out of the blue... I dont remember it even being built up at all as well :X

keshou
January 27th, 2006, 09:53 PM
Well I kind of liked this one too - certainly more than last week's episode. I think it did a better job of showing what is going on with Lee than that surreal suicidal moment in Resurrection Ship.

I don't remember seeing "flashback girlfriend" before either but I gather they had a falling out over his refusal to commit to having a child with her - at first I thought she might already be pregnant the way she was clutching her stomach. Guess not, just the usual "failure to commit".

Totally not liking the bit with Dee/Lee. Dee seems like a totally different character from the gal who gave Adama wise advice earlier in the season. Maybe she's a Cylon and got a new personality downloaded into her brain. ;) Whatever, I'm finding it contrived and annoying.

Liked the end scene with Adama and Lee. They're backing each other up now and I'm enjoying this phase of their relationship.

I like that BSG tries to show us the realities of the fleet's situation every once in awhile - it's not all just space battles. Food is scarce, medicine is scarce and the oldest profession is thriving. And it's not all magically cleaned up by the end of the episode.

LoneStar1836
January 27th, 2006, 10:11 PM
Liked the end scene with Adama and Lee. They're backing each other up now and I'm enjoying this phase of their relationship.Me too.

Haven't had too many scenes with those two together this season, and I appreciate every little one they include. Had to chuckle at that look he gave his dad when he asked why he hadn't told him about that woman.


I like that BSG tries to show us the realities of the fleet's situation every once in awhile - it's not all just space battles. Food is scarce, medicine is scarce and the oldest profession is thriving. And it's not all magically cleaned up by the end of the episode.If anything it’s just getting uglier.

The human aspect can be really depressing if you think about because there seem to be less and less bright spots.

Though Doc Cottle can find the bright spots. His crack back to Adama about if he found anything else on Fisk's body, he might just retire early. :D

GateTrek2004
January 27th, 2006, 10:25 PM
yea i agree this was a bit boring, ive only seen the first 30 min and getting ready to see the last 30 now and its just not as exciting as the last few episodes, no starbuck :mad: thats just upsetting, oh its coming back on bye for now!

Mr. Seven
January 27th, 2006, 10:59 PM
Mr. Moore really beats himself up over this in the podcast. Frankly, this was pretty good.

I think it's better than a few that he mentioned he was proud of in earlier podcasts. I think his standards are pretty high for the show (which is a good thing) but this one wasn't a dud by any means.

We learned a lot more about Lee (Bamber can really carry an episode and Michael Hogan had a STRONG scene as well) and learned a bit more about the fleet.

No worries RDM.

GALACTIC MYTH
January 27th, 2006, 11:44 PM
I think this ep. was great. The backround story on Lee and the things he has done shows more of his personality and the personal demons he faces. Now Lee is not my favorite character in the show but he did a damn good job. I would have to say that I was at the end of my seat most of the time and the show went by way to fast. Just because of all the little details that were going on with him that are so important to his character. Jamie did a great job and should be proud of what he did.

Some of you posted that you were upset that there was no Starbuck (she is my favorite character) but I didn't miss her at all in this ep. there was nothing starbuck about it and if their was it probably would've been her decking someone. I was thrilled to see more people facing their inner demons other than her. This wasn't an ep. that needed starbuck in it, I don't think.

This was a dark ep. I don't know what some of you have been or may have been complaining about, but this stuff (selling children won't go any more detail) does happen every day more than once. It is sad, horifing, discusting but perverted people like that do exist and there are thousands of them.

This show I believe show shows us the things we try to hide and ignore in this sociaty, and it hurts us in the long run because we are foolish if we don't think these things accur.

Oh Mr. Seven I do not listen to the podcast(cause I can't download it) and if RDM did beat himself over it (I'll take your word for it that he did) it was well done. With these High standards that they have or we have set for the show, they should just shoot it the way the want, write it the way they want, edit the way they want, because thats how they got this faw and had little to no faith from anyone and now its the Best TV show, wasn't best new reimangend sci-fi show, just big broud stated for all catagories BEST TV SHOW of 2005(from tv guide or time mag, something like that you all know Im sure).

(Please forgive me for any miss-spelling I am and always will be dyslexic (Im not even sure if thats how you spell the learning thing) seriously I am).

GALACTIC MYTH
January 28th, 2006, 12:01 AM
I thought that it was a bit strange that the chick wanted to give him a baby, and than ran off after he told her no. Its like, if he's not ready, he's not ready... the guy had issues about his own parents marrage, it's no wonder why he's scare of that kind of commitment. (Was it just me or did it look like she was in the crowd that Zarick was walking though at the end of the episode?)

Yeah, not to happy about the way Dee is acting. It's like she's with Billy until something better comes along mainly Lee. Makes me wonder how much she actually cares about him. He's such a nice guy too, he does deserve a girl who will love him for who he is and not let the eyes wonder.

I understood that she was already pregnant and gave Lee the news, and he denied her and the baby (the sene where she puts his hand on her stomach and then we see him pull his hands away quickley and then she runs off) and Lee didn't go after her. Then she and the growing baby both died during the cylon attack. Thats what and where I thought his guilt was coming from, for the ep.

grover
January 28th, 2006, 01:44 AM
I understood that she was already pregnant and gave Lee the news, and he denied her and the baby (the sene where she puts his hand on her stomach and then we see him pull his hands away quickley and then she runs off) and Lee didn't go after her. Then she and the growing baby both died during the cylon attack. Thats what and where I thought his guilt was coming from, for the ep.

That's what I got too, but maybe the Podcast will clear things up. I thought they had some interesting ideas but they didn't follow through. All of a sudden Lee is spending quality time away from Galactica. He and Dee (blech) are getting cozy while working out. (Brief tangent... it's one thing for the producers to push this relationship, but could they have the decency to do it on screen? Yeah she tossed him around a couple months back, big deal. I like it when the writers don't feel the need to dumb it down for me, but could we keep the "think for yourself" aspects at the sub-MENSA level?) Zarek came across as a plot device, and the "B" Story with Baltar was pointless. And I missed Kara... her abscence was actually a little distracting. When Lee walked into the bar to confront the Big Bad Boss I half expected Starbuck to follow behind him.

I wasn't surprised when Lee popped the guy, I just wish he hadn't hesitated. I thought the last flash back was unnecessary. The guy was selling child as sex slaves, you don't need to reach for personal stores of guilt and loss to off the guy. It was almost like Lee missed his cue, and the other actor had to say his line again so the scene could end!

A disappointing episode.

Orion's Star
January 28th, 2006, 01:52 AM
Dee.....yeah Billy does deserve better this who Lee/Dee relationship just wooshed out of the blue... I dont remember it even being built up at all as well :X
They have been hinting at a Lee/Dee relationship ever since the beginning of S2. And a lot more overtly at least since he started training her to fight, in the episode...Flight of the Pheonix? It seems that there was at least a modicum of resolution to the plot of their potential relationship in his response to her question in this episode. She knows where she stands with him and I am not sure that there will be any more development of that strand for the time being.


I understood that she was already pregnant and gave Lee the news, and he denied her and the baby (the sene where she puts his hand on her stomach and then we see him pull his hands away quickley and then she runs off) and Lee didn't go after her. Then she and the growing baby both died during the cylon attack. Thats what and where I thought his guilt was coming from, for the ep.
I understood this to be one of the biggest issues for Lee as a character and certainly it appears to be why he has such massive relationship and interpersonal issues. Whether or not the blonde woman was actually pregnant is an important distinction to make as it certainly colors his actions. I hope that RDM clarifies this in the future, because I think we are led to believe that she was pregnant and he just couldn't deal with that (as you stated) and seems so anathema to Lee's character. Hopefully his indecisiveness happened just before the attack and so he didn't have time to think about what he did and actually just leave his girlfriend (or whatever) behind.

I would think as he has been presented in the show that Lee would never do that. So I can understand his massive guilt over never getting to have his child and how that would screw him up so totally. Combine that with his suicidal behavior over the last few episodes and you've got somebody who just doesn't really care about anything and is willing to play a little loose with the rules.

Which is interesting because I am wondering if a promotion is headed his way.

grover
January 28th, 2006, 02:31 AM
I just listened to the Podcast, Moore says that Flashback Blonde was preggo.

Carbito
January 28th, 2006, 05:40 AM
I thought it was important in this episode that they showed just how bad conditions in the fleet have been. I'm even more suprised that Admiral Adama did not do more about the black market, he just seemed to accept it.The whole supply situation seems to have been ignored by the writers for far too long. It sure has changed a lot from what we saw in season one.

keshou
January 28th, 2006, 06:06 AM
The human aspect can be really depressing if you think about because there seem to be less and less bright spots.
Yep, and this show is really showing the warts of the whole "human aspect" thing. Babylon 5 used to touch on it once in awhile but not to this extent. Makes it more gritty and realistic but also more depressing at times.


Though Doc Cottle can find the bright spots. His crack back to Adama about if he found anything else on Fisk's body, he might just retire early.
That *was* pretty funny - I especially love when he's treating all his patients with a cigarette dangling from the side of his mouth. ;) :)


I just listened to the Podcast, Moore says that Flashback Blonde was preggo.
Okay, that's what I was leaning towards when I first watched the episode - and then I started wondering if that was right after seeing other people's interpretations.

Makes more sense that Lee would be feeling more guilt over *that* situation - he thinks flashback girlfriend, carrying his child, are dead now. Or are they? Never know with this show.

Vyrsace
January 28th, 2006, 08:55 AM
I liked this episode. I think all the viewers are just getting too demanding with this series and are expecting too much action and drama and not enough of the rest. We all talk about how Battlestar Galactica is awesome because it covers some aspects of cinematography and script that alot of science fictions (or general series rather) don't offer, but how can those same people conclude without having the rest of the stuff either? When we, the viewers, are constantly bombarded with the same thing over and over... well, at first, it's great because we like it and that's what we want, but after awhile it becomes duller and we get decensitized to it because we are just getting too much of it. I think single character development is a nice touch and the only cylon presence was that over Six in Baltar's imagination, which is also a nice addition for change. Let's get real here, there are more problems on Galactica and Pegasus than just the Cylons and What do these people do on their spare time not fighting Cylons? Here we go, here is our answer. Sure, alot of us probably don't care what happens in the backround but that's what reasoning is probably behind this episode.

I do admit that it's not quite as appealing to watch an episode where something is dragged on from the last episode only to be resolved quickly. I like episodes with fresh starts and only continue major plot lines. At best, I would like to see subplots re-emerge in later episodes instead of follow each other in consecutive order, so you can go "Hey! Remember him/her from a few episodes back! I knew that would have happened later! SWEET!" or vice versa.

Specifically, I feel the comments about not wanting to watch BSG because of this episode's child selling dillema are a bit exagerated. We hated (and maybe for some of us 'felt sorry for') Admiral Cain because of the bad things she did, which was alot more since she basically comitted genocide to the fleet that was followering her ship but, in the end, we loved the episode. Now we have this episode and hate it because the bad guys crossed some new lines? That's what bad guys do. It's not like they let this continue. For me, it gave me a rush of anger to know that's what was happening and I was saying (in my head) "SHOOT HIM!" So it's a bad thing (in the story) done in a good way (plot).

In the end, I felt this episode ended a bit earlier than what I would have preffered, but I liked it because it didn't do anything bad. Remember, the absence of really good doesn't mean or infer that only bad can exist otherwise. We must understand there are more than the two ratings: VERY BAD and VERY GOOD.

GALACTIC MYTH
January 28th, 2006, 09:14 AM
I liked this episode. I think all the viewers are just getting too demanding with this series and are expecting too much action and drama and not enough of the rest. We all talk about how Battlestar Galactica is awesome because it covers some aspects of cinematography and script that alot of science fictions (or general series rather) don't offer, but how can those same people conclude without having the rest of the stuff either? When we, the viewers, are constantly bombarded with the same thing over and over... well, at first, it's great because we like it and that's what we want, but after awhile it becomes duller and we get decensitized to it because we are just getting too much of it. I think single character development is a nice touch and the only cylon presence was that over Six in Baltar's imagination, which is also a nice addition for change. Let's get real here, there are more problems on Galactica and Pegasus than just the Cylons and What do these people do on their spare time not fighting Cylons? Here we go, here is our answer. Sure, alot of us probably don't care what happens in the backround but that's what reasoning is probably behind this episode.

I agree with you, and I also posted (something like this earlier) that we or they seem to have put a lot of pressure for the show to be great all the time. When they first started they wrote, filmed, and editted the way they wanted and seemed to do an Outstanding job. All Im saying if the show does more of these eps. I won't be disapointed cause we as the audiance, and as people now that No one is perfect, all have scars and damage to some point.

somedude
January 28th, 2006, 09:58 AM
too bad Fisk is gone, I liked him.

coolove
January 28th, 2006, 10:57 AM
I really enjoyed this episode. Frankly, I'm ecstatic that it was Lee centric and they're finally going somewhere with this whole Lee/Dee thing.

But one thing has been really irritating me. What happened to Lt. Gaeta?

ToasterOnFire
January 28th, 2006, 11:48 AM
Eh, this was an okay episode for me, largely due to the fact that it was Apollo-heavy and I'm not the biggest fan of Apollo. I guess it was nice to gain some insight into his character and get a better understanding of his flaws. I also appreciated that BSG didn't back down and brought some heavy issues to the table (prostitution, child prostitution, a rather violent murder).

They killed Fisk! Those $#%[email protected]!! And just when I thought Tigh was gaining a drinking buddy. Who's going to command the Pegasus now? :(

I didn't like the idea of Dee/Apollo so I can only hope it's truly dead in the water after this ep.

At least Roslin appears to be on to Baltar. I was expecting that she was going to either let him resign or force him out somehow, but the latter option wasn't mentioned. There are rumors of an upcoming election that I haven't spoiled myself on, so maybe she dumps him in favor of another VP.


Looks like we have a similar theme of giving up hope next week with Starbuck.

somedude
January 28th, 2006, 11:56 AM
Hopefully Billy's a cylon....

Amanda Eros
January 28th, 2006, 12:02 PM
Hopefully Billy's a cylon....

I think he mentioned that he his parents moved to Picon to be closer to his sisters and their kids. So unless they programed that info into him, I don't think he's a cilon.

ShadowMaat
January 28th, 2006, 12:05 PM
Well, I'm sure Sharon "remembered" her family, too. Not necessarily indicative. ;)

Nah, I think it's just another case of a nice guy getting his guts ripped out by an insensitive girl who can't decide what she wants.

NotAscended
January 28th, 2006, 12:05 PM
I enjoyed seeing the civilian side of the fleet (seamy as it was), but was surprised and a little baffled by some of the other choices made by the writers/directors:

--Would not have picked Apollo as the Cloud Nine Regular, helping out one of the prostitutes with her kid. When does a CAG have time for that, plus flirting with Dee?

--Why did they keep showing us the girlfriend in the same shot so many times? This is a character that is supposed to be dead, so why do we need to have so many closeups of her face and little dialog? It didn't clarify what the relationship was between the two (as shown by the different ways in which watchers have interpreted it) or explain why he would feel so guilty (after all, most of the people Apollo knew are now dead, not just the girlfriend).

I hope all the face time doesn't means she will reappear and we have another Cylon momma. That would be an awful plot development.

ShadowMaat
January 28th, 2006, 12:10 PM
She'll reappear just after Lee declares his love for Kara and that'll throw a monkey wrench into everything. Eventually, though, Lee will choose Kara and Gratuitous Ex-Girlfriend willl fade back into non-existence. :rolleyes:

Oh wait, that's what STARGATE would do. Hopefully, BSG will think more intelligently than that. ;)

She'll reappear, sans kid, throw the proverbial monkey wrench into the works and make for lots of angsting for Lee, but he'll be spared the agony of having to make a decision by her sudden and unexpected death, catapulting him into yet more angst, wherein he tries to seek solace in the arms of Kara.

Not MUCH better than SG-1, I admit... :P

HarshCritic
January 28th, 2006, 12:21 PM
I can't believe Dee was about to step out on Billy. They are dating, right? I was thoroughly satisfied with the episode. Can't wait for next week's!

ShadowMaat
January 28th, 2006, 12:23 PM
I can't believe Dee was about to step out on Billy. They are dating, right? I was thoroughly satisfied with the episode. Can't wait for next week's!
Well, she made a play for Lee and when he backed off, she went after Random Dude in the gym, so I'm thinking maybe she and Billy aren't together anymore. Which is too bad, because that was one ship I could really support. :(

creed462
January 28th, 2006, 12:30 PM
I was sad they let the black market continue, but I know what he was thinking, the problem is it may come back to bite him.

grover
January 28th, 2006, 12:59 PM
What I liked best about this episode was the groundwork it laid for the upcoming shift in political alliances.

NOTE: The following is speculation, I don't know any of this is going to happen so I'm not going to bother with spoiler tags.

It's pretty clear that the Roslin/Baltar union is about to go its seperate ways, and Baltar has already made in-roads with a powerful political force... The Peace Movement. If this group can get the right kind of boost it could propel Baltar to the Presidency. The only way Roslin could counter that kind of political challenge would be to... team up with Zarek. The dilemma will be in finding the right sort of check to keep Zarek from killing Roslin once he becomes VP.

Hamyseven
January 28th, 2006, 02:29 PM
I would agree with most posts that last nights episode wasn't the best ever but it certainly was not the worst. I like the character development with Lee and am looking forward to next week with Starbuck. I would like to see a little more deviousness out of Baltar though. I really like all the characters and can't wait each week for more.

ToasterOnFire
January 28th, 2006, 02:46 PM
Well, she made a play for Lee and when he backed off, she went after Random Dude in the gym, so I'm thinking maybe she and Billy aren't together anymore. Which is too bad, because that was one ship I could really support. :(
Wait! I thought at the end when Dee was doing crunches the guy holding her feet was Billy? And she popped up for a smooch before secretly looking all angsty at Apollo? Did I see it wrong and it really was a random guy?

Hamyseven
January 28th, 2006, 03:00 PM
Wait! I thought at the end when Dee was doing crunches the guy holding her feet was Billy? And she popped up for a smooch before secretly looking all angsty at Apollo? Did I see it wrong and it really was a random guy?

It sure looked like Billy to me. It is the first time I remember him without the tie. Maybe that is what is throwing everyone off?

ShadowMaat
January 28th, 2006, 03:06 PM
LOL! Okay, maybe it WAS Billy, then. It did cross my mind, but the hair looked different and he seemed bulkier. But like I said, I absolutely SUCK at recognizing people. Met Bruce Willis once without even knowing it. ;)

Actually, I dunno if that makes it any better. She makes a play for Lee, loses, so goes back to Billy? That isn't too cool, either.

GALACTIC MYTH
January 28th, 2006, 03:59 PM
I would agree with most posts that last nights episode wasn't the best ever but it certainly was not the worst. I like the character development with Lee and am looking forward to next week with Starbuck. I would like to see a little more deviousness out of Baltar though. I really like all the characters and can't wait each week for more.

I also enjoy the character development with Lee and hope they do more with other characters.

Easter Lily
January 28th, 2006, 04:09 PM
The guy in the gymn was Billy... I'm pretty sure of it... :)

That whole Lee/Dee thing was the most contrived romantic angle since Sam and Jack, in an otherwise compelling episode. Yes, there were some hints of it in an earlier episode but it hasn't really been built on enough. And frankly speaking (with no offence to the actors involved) Lee and Dee have as much chemistry as myself and a piece of mouldy cheese.

I liked this episode more than I have the last two. I found the last two somewhat gimmicky with lots of twists and ex deus machinas. I like BSG best when they work the characters because when they do that, the storytelling pretty much takes care of itself.
The thing that interests me about Lee is how much people underestimate him... every single time. It started with Bastille Day and I think that aspect has been consistently built on. I was interested to see that Lee has become a walking death wish and that makes him inherently dangerous. Still he hasn't completely lost his sense of rightness. I'm glad to see the writers pushing the envelope with him and I'm also pleasantly surprised to see how understanding his father has become of him. Knowing when the back off and when to drop hints of concern.

The more startling thing about BSG is that while everyone around him is getting darker and more edgy, Adama is going the opposite direction. He is becoming more understanding and for want of a better word, softer. This is why I think he is my favourite character. He has looked adversity in the eye and has overcome it and come out of it with greater wisdom.

I don't think Kara belonged in this episode and I think it worked well not having her in it. We really needed a Lee centric episode to remind me why I like him. ;) Jamie Bamber is a terrific actor and was able to hold it together on his own. *Sigh* So much angst...

cyke
January 28th, 2006, 06:21 PM
No show is perfect, tonight is an example. If I had to sum it up in one word, "WEAK" BSG is a great show but every show has an episode not as good as the others. This was all to be expected since the whole pegasus thing happened.

Random Thoughts

Lee - going to an escort? it felt too contrived. too many things just came out of no where that it felt like the writers just wanted to spice things up with lee, to try to make him not so goody good as he appears to be, which to me didn't quite hit the mark.

also dee? during the episode when they were "wrestling" i thought that too came way out of no where. i thought things were good with her and billy, esp after "valley of darkness" ? and poor billy, i feel bad for the guy now. i wonder how he would react to find out that the other day dee was practically throwing herself to lee and the next day all kissy in the gym.

and how the hell did the pegasus get up in this black market? now it seems as if they're speeding up time here while before it felt like each episode only had a day or 2 pass.

i don't understand how adama agreed to lee's idea to keep the black market running.

not the best episode but some things managed to move forward espically with baltar and roslin. zarek seems to always be somewhere in the background. the head of the peace group was in that bar, is there a connection between his group and the blackmarket ? i smell another cylon in the midst pulling the strings.

i get the feeling that the cylons maybe playing a little physcological game withg the humans, like how scientists study animal behavior or something.

i'm not looking forward to next week's. it seems like a repeat of tonight but with starbuck. also didn't kat just learn to fly? and now she's some hot shot ?

grover
January 28th, 2006, 09:32 PM
i don't understand how adama agreed to lee's idea to keep the black market running.



Adama didn't agree to keeping the black market running, he backed Lee's decision... which was to keep the black market running. Subtle difference. After the promotion, the smooch and the near death experience, there was some gray area in the Roslin/Adama relationship. How close was their relationship? I don't think either one really knew that answer until Adama sided with Lee on this issue. Roslin is important to Adama on a personal and professional level but she isn't family. He was not going to over-rule Lee at her request, and Roslin could not order Lee to eliminate the black market unless she had Adama's support.

This marks the second time Adama has made such a gesture towards Lee. The first came when Starbuck was missing. Everyone, Lee included, knew (knows) that Adama loves Kara like a daughter and that she was (is) his favorite. But she wasn't family and Adama was ultimately willing to leave her behind. He wouldn't have left if it was Lee that was missing (credit again to Olmos for selling that moment so completely) and now in "Black Market" he has the opportunity to again choose between a woman he cares about and his son. Lee had made his play, and right or wrong Adama was going to back his son.

Hatcheter
January 28th, 2006, 11:14 PM
The guy in the gymn was Billy... I'm pretty sure of it... :)It absolutely was.


That whole Lee/Dee thing was the most contrived romantic angle since Sam and Jack, in an otherwise compelling episode. Yes, there were some hints of it in an earlier episode but it hasn't really been built on enough. And frankly speaking (with no offence to the actors involved) Lee and Dee have as much chemistry as myself and a piece of mouldy cheese.I think you're disregarding how much "chemistry" you and said moldy cheese would have after you ate it. ;) I personally don't have a problem if they want to flirt that story route a bit. This show is all about highly flawed people, so it's not impossible. The two actors don't get much screen time together, but I seems they might have chemistry if they did.

Overall, it was an interesting episode. Lee is moving down a difficult, dark path, and its exciting to follow. We learned more abut the fleet, and about it's seedy side. Some butting heads between Roslin and the military, where her idealism lost out to the Adama's pragmatism.

And what are they setting up for Baltar? Looks like he's getting ready to become a serious trouble maker.

justinbrett
January 28th, 2006, 11:46 PM
I actually liked this episode... *ducks for cover*...

Sure, it was really different to most other episodes - but it was good to see some character development for Lee. They were on the road to making him look perfect, so it was good to see some flaws built up.

It was more in the style of a mafia movie than scifi, but it was a nice change.

I'm starting to get worried that there's only 6 episodes left! Then there will be a really long break until Season 3.

I've already decided I'm going to start watching SGA from Season 1 when this season is over (I've never watched it before).

LoneStar1836
January 29th, 2006, 01:24 AM
Don't duck, Justin. :D I really liked this episode, too ;)


We learned more abut the fleet, and about it's seedy side. Some butting heads between Roslin and the military, where her idealism lost out to the Adama's pragmatism.Yeah, I don’t honestly know how Roslin expected the military to shut down the black market, especially when some in the military were partaking in it.

I mean yeah they could have attempted to shut down the Prometheus and her illegal activities, but cutting of the head of this particular snake is not going to kill it. When stuff becomes scarce, especially food and meds, people get desperate. Those willing to pay the asking price get the goods while the others are out of luck. And I doubt cash currency was the preferred choice of “paying” for something. Which is why I thought it kind of strange that Lee was paying for “services” with cash. You’d think she’d be more practical and ask for something with actual value since currency has very little actual use or benefit in the situation these people are in. When something’s supply is exhausted, you ain’t getting more so if I’m giving something valuable away I don’t want paper money in return. It’s not very tasty. ;)


Adama didn't agree to keeping the black market running, he backed Lee's decision... which was to keep the black market running. Subtle difference.I betcha though Adama probably agreed with Lee. Adama's not a fan of using the military as a police force. Remember that little speech he gave in "Water".

Adama: We don't have the manpower for fleet security.
Roslin: You have the o*nly armed, disciplined, force available.
Adama: Yeah, but I'm not gonna be your policeman.
Roslin: Hmm.
Adama: There's a reason we separate military and the police: o*ne fights the enemy of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people.

rlebeau
January 29th, 2006, 01:31 AM
Hello all. I'm new to this post and am glad I found it..

Someone does need to explain onething for me.

i have season one and two on DVD... isn't this the third season. Post says season 2.... .

feel free to point me to the post where this has already been discussed.

LoneStar1836
January 29th, 2006, 01:44 AM
Hello all. I'm new to this post and am glad I found it..

Someone does need to explain onething for me.

i have season one and two on DVD... isn't this the third season. Post says season 2.... .

feel free to point me to the post where this has already been discussed.
Hi! And Welcome to the forum. :)

The DVD set they released in December (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=18266) was for just the first 10 episodes of season 2. The Sci-Fi Channel (which produces and broadcasts BSG in the US) traditionally takes a mid-season hiatus for its main shows, and the 2nd half of Season 2 started back up in January for BSG.

Blade Runner
January 29th, 2006, 08:09 AM
Great episode very reminiscent of the great season one

x_sid
January 29th, 2006, 09:21 AM
As much as I hate to say this I really didn't like the episode. It was far from the worst tv episode I've ever watched, but I really think the problem was solved kind of stupidly. I guess it is better to embrace the devil you know instead of jailing these guys, and letting someone else fill the vacume, but at the same time I really think they could have at least laid the ground work for a bit more control of this crap. And I'm sorry but I really think they went to far having this guy deal in children. I can handle prostitution to a degree, because there is a choice in that. However I've got to ask in 50,000 people how many pedifiles coudl there possibly be. I also hope Lee gets over this stupid funk he's in. I'm getting a bit annoyed with it.

ToasterOnFire
January 29th, 2006, 10:59 AM
As much as I hate to say this I really didn't like the episode. It was far from the worst tv episode I've ever watched, but I really think the problem was solved kind of stupidly. I guess it is better to embrace the devil you know instead of jailing these guys, and letting someone else fill the vacume, but at the same time I really think they could have at least laid the ground work for a bit more control of this crap.
That particular statement made me realize the connection between Lee allowing the black market to continue as long as its monitored and Roslin allowing Baltar to be elected/remain VP even though she continues to have her doubts about him. The devil you know, indeed.

There's so many layers in this show. I love peeling away the BSG onion. :D

USA1290
January 29th, 2006, 11:02 AM
Well, she made a play for Lee and when he backed off, she went after Random Dude in the gym, so I'm thinking maybe she and Billy aren't together anymore. Which is too bad, because that was one ship I could really support. :(
Greetings,
I had read on another forum, that SHE had broken up with Billy because he was spying on Adama for Roslin & was doing it through her. Anyone else?
I [IMO] think that is a good reason to break up & stay broken up.

x_sid
January 29th, 2006, 06:15 PM
Greetings,
I had read on another forum, that SHE had broken up with Billy because he was spying on Adama for Roslin & was doing it through her. Anyone else?
I [IMO] think that is a good reason to break up & stay broken up.

I think you're right I remember there was that big blow up between them last season when Dualla found out that he was doing that. It was close to the end, maybe around the Kobol'sl last gleaming episodes.

entil2001
January 29th, 2006, 07:01 PM
This is one odd episode, especially for this series, which has proven time and again how versatile the writing staff can be. The problem is that the intentions are right there on the screen. All the pieces are on the board and there’s even a fairly simple strategy for pulling out a victory. The writers simply don’t execute well enough, and as a result, the final product is muddled, shallow, and more than a little convenient for a series this complex.

I was expecting to listen to the Ron Moore podcast and get some sense of what I was missing. I was sure that a more positive reaction would come with a more informed point of view. Imagine my surprise when Ron confirmed each and every issue I had with the episode, and in fact, added several more to the list.

If the previous episode used the “Lost” format relatively well, with a distinctly “BSG” flavor, then this episode was an example of how it can be applied incorrectly. In fact, this episode had many of the same problems that the less impressive “Lost” episodes exhibit: lack of strong connective threads between “past” and “present” and shallow treatment of a complex point of conflict.

In this case, the idea was to establish that Lee was trying to make up for his unfortunate dismissal of his pregnant lover back on Caprica, just before the Cylon attack, by taking responsibility for Siobhan and her daughter. Lee was supposed to be making serious assumptions about Siobhan’s desire for the same thing. Unfortunately, as hard as the writers and editors try to make it work, it doesn’t quite come together. I just didn’t feel it, and so when the music began to swell in the final act, it felt like empty sentimentalism.

The episode might have been salvaged in large part if Lee’s conflict with the black market might have been more complex. In the end, there is a solid message behind it all. As I’ve said before, the fleet is operating in a situation that defies governance. Civilization is, in many ways, a pleasant veneer that may not go as deep as Roslin would desire. Lee (and perhaps Adama) understands that a certain amount of free trade and barter is necessary, since the basic systems are still being established and fortified. Certainly Zarek understands it, especially since he operates best as the self-appointed spokesman for the oppressed masses.

Ron mentioned a number of ideas that never made it to the screen. For instance, the brothel concept and Gina’s place on Cloud Nine in the previous episode were never connected, though they were meant to be. Zarek’s connections to the black market weren’t clear enough, especially at the end. But far worse was the existence of a crime syndicate so powerful that it could eliminate the commander of a military vessel so easily and with relatively little consequence.

Phelan was written a bit too conventionally, and as Ron himself admits, the entire plot was simply not up to “BSG” standards. Some of the smaller moments were good: the Baltar/Roslin confrontation was quite good, even if Roslin’s reasons for the offer weren’t directly tied to the previous episode’s revelations. Clearly, that subplot is going to have serious consequences for the rest of the season.

anotherquestion
January 29th, 2006, 09:34 PM
As much as I hate to say this I really didn't like the episode. It was far from the worst tv episode I've ever watched, but I really think the problem was solved kind of stupidly. I guess it is better to embrace the devil you know instead of jailing these guys, and letting someone else fill the vacume, but at the same time I really think they could have at least laid the ground work for a bit more control of this crap. And I'm sorry but I really think they went to far having this guy deal in children. I can handle prostitution to a degree, because there is a choice in that. However I've got to ask in 50,000 people how many pedifiles coudl there possibly be. I also hope Lee gets over this stupid funk he's in. I'm getting a bit annoyed with it.
Although I generally agree with your assessment of this episode, I think it does indicate how "broken" many of the survivors of the Cylon attack are.

Until this episode, Lee appeared to be the most righteous member of the Gallactica crew, almost to the point of zealotry. When we met him first in the mini, he had broken off relations with his father, presumably out of a deep-seated loyalty to his mother and an enduring resentment against his father for placing the demands of the Colonial service above the needs of his family (which, ironically enough, William Adama appears to reverse on many occasions after the Cylon attack). Lee had refused to go along with the "junta" led by Colonel Tigh against President Roslyn because he stood up for the rights of the Charter of the Colonies above his Father's orders. Lee expressed feelings bordering on contempt for Starbuck's manifest promiscuity and self-destructive when he learns she's slept with Baltar.

All this self-righteous stands were saved from being mere priggishness by small reservations, and some small failings. He forgives his father and reconciles. He breaks his word (his parole) with Tigh and aids in the escape of the President (and himself). He trys to reconnect with Starbuck emotionally.

These were small failings to an otherwise noble or even heroic core. I think his despair in Resurrection Ship 2, was brought on by the imminent dissolution of the fabric of his moral framework by a one-two-three punch: when he hears of his father's plot to murder someone, that the murder was sactioned, if not precipitated by his President, and that it would be carried out by someone who is as close to him as a member of his family.

This episode, however, shows an even darker side of Lee. A side that was present long before the events of Resurrection Ship II, and one that casts a new light on many of his previous actions and attitudes. Unfortunately Lee is shown to be much more of a hypocrite in this light.

His actions on Caprica with his former lover contain many of the elements that he observed were the most destructive in his Father's relationship with his mother, for example. After all, he left the lover planetside to pursue his military career. His relationship with the Cloud nine "working girl" and her child, dampens considerably his complaint against Starbuck's promiscuity. Finally, and most seriously, his murder of the Black Market leader makes a mockery of his previously expressed respect for the authority of the law above and beyond the will of a strong military leader. The Black Market operation was, it is true, a pitiless business. Lee offers to turn a blind eye to it if certain conditions are met. When they are not, he cold bloodedly murders the old "kingpin", virtually setting himself up as a new "silent partner". I'm not sure how successful his "reforms" will remain. He insisted on "no more killings" but he had to kill, himself, to enhance his bargaining position.

These are very murky waters, even for BSG, which appears to want to avoid the "squeaky clean" image of past SciFi franchises. I think they might have tarred Lee a bit too much, however, at this point.

The final point about "how many pediphiles" could there be in a sample of 50,000. I think there could be quite a few. These are the survivors of a cataclysm after all. Dispite the patina of governance they are in a largely lawless environment. Many of the survivors probably reached the fleet by climbing over the bodies of their more noble companions. The breakdown of an ordered economic system, of regular pay and work, of commerce, and of a day-to-day purpose for many of these people can lead to a very distorted dysfunctional society.

triabita
January 30th, 2006, 04:16 AM
I will have to agree with people stating that this ep was hollow in sentimental value, enough said about this matter...

Two plot questions though have risen in my mind though...
President Roslin requested from VP Baltar to resign...
Ok, she may have two reasons for doing this:
a. She doesn't believe the VP is up to the task (totaly understandable)
b. She strongly stands by her recovered memories of seeing the V.P. with #6

Now if a. is the case then why now and why the memory flashback if she is not to take it under account...

If it is b. then why this whole ploting and not instant action? Or discussion, something!

I really didn't get this :/

The second plot "question" is how did 3 thugs managed to get inside a military battleship without beeing noticed, kill the commander of this ship (pegasus) and walk away unharmed... Pegasus personel had to known them, looked the other way around to allow access to them... so when they found the commander dead they (the pegasus crew) all knew who / why / how he was killed. That is sad!

AlphaBlu
January 30th, 2006, 05:35 AM
I hated it. It wasn't a bad episode, I just hated what was going on - the waste of it all. The corrupt Fisk. The dude from Predator. Apollo being a loser. Roslyn suddenly going into ultra-***** mode. I just hated it.

And I hate Baltar even more now. I hated him during the last episode, I despise him now.

BYE

anotherquestion
January 30th, 2006, 07:18 AM
One very small observation.

When Baltar discovers the blood spattered table at the crime scene of Fisk's murder, he reacts with the exclamation "O my god" instead of using the more appropriate (for the Colonials) plural form. This passes unnoticed by Lee Adama (who might not be the closest observing detective for this investigation after all).

I don't know if this was a slip in continuity or another subtle sign of Baltar's changing orientation. We've heard the expressions "O my gods" and "Thank the gods" many times in the past episodes.

USA1290
January 30th, 2006, 07:18 AM
The second plot "question" is how did 3 thugs managed to get inside a military battleship without beeing noticed, kill the commander of this ship (pegasus) and walk away unharmed... Pegasus personel had to known them, looked the other way around to allow access to them... so when they found the commander dead they (the pegasus crew) all knew who / why / how he was killed. That is sad!

After watching this, I'm thinking it may have been as simple as a case of bribery. This was a episode showing the seedier side of Colonial life. They may have been noticed & those who were on watch $imply turned a blind eye.
This just imo. I've heard the podcast commentary is available & maybe RDM mentions this incident.

ShadowMaat
January 30th, 2006, 07:29 AM
When Baltar discovers the blood spattered table at the crime scene of Fisk's murder, he reacts with the exclamation "O my god" instead of using the more appropriate (for the Colonials) plural form. This passes unnoticed by Lee Adama (who might not be the closest observing detective for this investigation after all).
I heard someone else use the singular of "god" in another ep and it really caught me... but I figured it was a cotinuity thing. Now I'm curious to go back and see who it was. ;)

Smashing Young Man
January 30th, 2006, 10:13 AM
Overall this episode just felt...clunky...to me. Everything about it seemed too contrived and forced. Lately I've begun to fear the writers are trying too hard to be edgy in order to live up to and surpass the show's hype.

Magniopi
January 30th, 2006, 10:38 AM
Are transcripts of the podcasts available? I'd love to read them as opposed to listening.

ViperGP
January 30th, 2006, 01:25 PM
Tigh said "God damn" a few episodes back.

Mr. Seven
January 30th, 2006, 05:42 PM
Sorry, if this has been asked before...but was I the only one that thought Apollo and Six made a good couple when they were standing next to each other?

Maybe she should forget about Baltar and go for the Admiral's son.

Imagine old Cylon hating Husker finding out his grandkid is half cylon.

Lady Snow
January 30th, 2006, 06:13 PM
Imagine old Cylon hating Husker finding out his grandkid is half cylon.

*snickers*

That would be fairly amusing.

LoneStar1836
January 30th, 2006, 08:16 PM
One very small observation.

When Baltar discovers the blood spattered table at the crime scene of Fisk's murder, he reacts with the exclamation "O my god" instead of using the more appropriate (for the Colonials) plural form. This passes unnoticed by Lee Adama (who might not be the closest observing detective for this investigation after all).

I don't know if this was a slip in continuity or another subtle sign of Baltar's changing orientation. We've heard the expressions "O my gods" and "Thank the gods" many times in the past episodes.I want to say that I remember reading (or maybe hearing RDM in a podcast) say that the Colonials don’t all follow the same religion - some believe in the lords of Kobol, some are atheists, some may be monotheistic, etc. etc. He was making the point that their religion was varied much in the same way as our own with all the different types.

So for Baltar to say god in the singular may not have been a totally out of the blue thing for Lee to hear. I wouldn’t say it’s a continuity error, especially since it was coming from Baltar. So I’d say it was a subtle sign of Baltar’s gradual change.

Now if it had come from say someone like Starbuck, then I’d say someone flubbed and didn’t catch the error.

Lady Snow
January 30th, 2006, 08:36 PM
I want to say that I remember reading (or maybe hearing RDM in a podcast) say that the Colonials don’t all follow the same religion - some believe in the lords of Kobol, some are atheists, some may be monotheistic, etc. etc. He was making the point that their religion was varied much in the same way as our own with all the different types.

Right. Remember, Billy's an atheist. It takes all kinds.

cyke
January 30th, 2006, 09:33 PM
As much as I hate to say this I really didn't like the episode. It was far from the worst tv episode I've ever watched,....... However I've got to ask in 50,000 people how many pedifiles coudl there possibly be. I also hope Lee gets over this stupid funk he's in. I'm getting a bit annoyed with it.

yep, not the best. i felt this way with "water" after watching the incredible mini series and "33." a pot hole in the road, its to be expected.. yes lee get over it .. you make up abondoning your pregnant girlfriend by hooking up with a prostitute with a kid.. that in itself was kind of weird itself.. i mean if we were looking at things being "normal" then yea i see how a mother would go into that business to help her kid .. but once the world ended, i don't understand y u would so easily turn to that lifestyle, i mean isn't everyone suffering too? and where in the world did this ho come from ? did freighter 69 leave the red district of caprica right before the cylons attacked? .. tried too much to make it like a "normal" world, but wait theres no world just a bunch of ships .. well no wonder the cylons attacked hehe..

i fear not for BSG, there are several juicy details we haven't touched on yet, such as when sharon reaches the 9 month phase of her pregnancy (or earlier, she is a cylon) and the nuke. i have a feelling that the nuke will be used to destroy pegasus. it would make sense, the pegasus is a better ship and destroying it over galactica would make sense from a military point of view.

cyke
January 30th, 2006, 09:35 PM
Overall this episode just felt...clunky...to me. Everything about it seemed too contrived and forced. Lately I've begun to fear the writers are trying too hard to be edgy in order to live up to and surpass the show's hype.

well the writers pulled out amazing episodes before, im sure when they read this they went .. "oh frack.. lets salvage what we can"

i'm not looking forward to this weeks episode, by the previews it looks like "black market" the starbuck remix but hey i'm hopeful

foxhound22
January 30th, 2006, 10:52 PM
I don't know, I read these posts before watching it tonight and thought that it was going to suck, but I was surprised as to how much I liked this episode. This episode may have ticked off some people because the Black Market was allowed to continue, but think of this, the market now knows that Galactica knows about them. It wouldn't take much for the Galactica and Pegasus to raid that frieghter with a contigent of Marines, take all the necessary supplies and goods, and leave the criminals in space without the Battlestar's protection.

The other thing I liked was Lee's departure from "Mister High-on-his-horse, better than though" attitude. I really liked the ending too, it actually surprised me.

Not the best, but I would give this one a 6 out of 10. I really would like to see more combat type episodes though.

Cag
January 31st, 2006, 12:43 AM
It seems like Apollo has had an awakening of sorts since his near death experience.

1) Thinking of the girl he left back on Caprica who was pregenant with his child. I guess he realizes now he messed up on a chance of having a family. Guess he he trying to feel the void with the trick and her kid

2) The best part to me when Apollo finally got a set of balls for once and capped the kingpin between the eyes

On another note, Apollo seems to be a PLAYER. He jumps around between Dee and Kara like it ain't no thing :D

Easter Lily
January 31st, 2006, 12:43 PM
I think you're disregarding how much "chemistry" you and said moldy cheese would have after you ate it. ;)
LOL... But nah... I don't think I would have been able to get past the smell.


I personally don't have a problem if they want to flirt that story route a bit. This show is all about highly flawed people, so it's not impossible. The two actors don't get much screen time together, but I seems they might have chemistry if they did.
The idea itself doesn't pose a problem for me but the execution of it does. I didn't mind Kara and Anders but Lee and Dee doesn't excite me in the slightest.


And what are they setting up for Baltar? Looks like he's getting ready to become a serious trouble maker.
I always find it fascinating that with all his inherent brilliance, Baltar is such an impressionable creature. I'm just glad that Roslin doesn't trust as far as she can throw him.

MASON
February 1st, 2006, 03:04 PM
Worst episode... EVER!

I couldn't believe how cliched this thing was, and what's worse, is that it made every character on screen look like a loser.

What a waste of time.

apollo123
February 2nd, 2006, 01:34 PM
One very small observation.

When Baltar discovers the blood spattered table at the crime scene of Fisk's murder, he reacts with the exclamation "O my god" instead of using the more appropriate (for the Colonials) plural form. This passes unnoticed by Lee Adama (who might not be the closest observing detective for this investigation after all).

I don't know if this was a slip in continuity or another subtle sign of Baltar's changing orientation. We've heard the expressions "O my gods" and "Thank the gods" many times in the past episodes.

I kinda think it's probably just a slip on the actor's part and no one corrected him. I don't think it makes sense for Baltar to start saying things like "O my God" or "God damn" even if he's been "converted". Those terms don't necessarily denote religious convictions. They're purely colloquial sayings. I can say those things and still consider myself an atheist or polotheist.

userfriendly
February 2nd, 2006, 03:03 PM
...Those terms don't necessarily denote religious convictions. They're purely colloquial sayings. I can say those things and still consider myself an atheist or polotheist.
yeah exactly. in the moments i say those things i really have other things in mind than thinking about my view on religion -.-

anotherquestion
February 2nd, 2006, 08:45 PM
I kinda think it's probably just a slip on the actor's part and no one corrected him. I don't think it makes sense for Baltar to start saying things like "O my God" or "God damn" even if he's been "converted". Those terms don't necessarily denote religious convictions. They're purely colloquial sayings. I can say those things and still consider myself an atheist or polotheist.
My point is that you'd be much less likely to say "O my gods" like the rest of the Colonials, because of the general cultural millieu. It's not your belief system as much as an implicit frame of reference. Whether you believe or not, once you start to enumerate dieties differently, you're changing the way you think about the whole concept.

Voxyn_Queen
February 4th, 2006, 11:03 PM
ha, all i have to say is, im really not liking the way Lee is going. All through the series Lee has been the voice of reason and morality. His 'paying for it' seems beneath him.

Also, what is it with the 'Dee' Ditz? I mean, i know who id choose between Lee and Billy. the former hands down. But to go drooling after Lee whilst being involved with Billy . . . I will say that i have a few choice words to say about her which i wont post.

The saving grace of this ep was the scene with Lee and Bill.

thebiggfrogg
February 6th, 2006, 02:36 PM
I thought this was a terrific episode. The thing I love about Battlestar Galactica is how it explores drama beyond the usual sci fi space battle ad infinitum. I like the exploration of the little details about keeping a refugee fleet alive: water shortages, riots, political scheming, etc. Oddly enough I think Battlestar Galactica does a better job at exploring current issues than the supposed "ripped from the headlines" crud that is the naive West Wing. This is what makes the show a cut above the usual Trek drivel (and this comes from a long time Star Trek fan). I also thought "Black Market" developed Lee's character well. Cracking a bit under the burdens of what the Galactica faces he was driven to welcoming death in "Resurrection" and it made his actions in this episode all the more believable. He really did not care that someone was shoving a gun in his chest. The past two episodes I thought were a bit of a deus ex machina cop out. Caine is taken out, but nobody has to get their hair mussed and Rosyln is given a miracle cure out of nowhere. Great episodes, but both plot developments were a little too convenient. I think this episode put things back on track. And Scar followed it up with more great character development on Starbuck.

Matt G
April 4th, 2006, 02:53 PM
1. OK...Lee's losing the plot. We had hints of this in Ressurection Ship. Best way to explain him fracking a whore.

2. Never seen the Adamas so close before.

3. Lee's decision to keep the black market running is certainly...interesting.

Overall though, it was a case of 'what does this have to do with anything?' An OKish standalone, the only consequences of which look to be that Pegasus needs yet 'another' new commander.

Naonak
April 5th, 2006, 09:07 AM
Well, that was... um... crap.

Marie Michaux
September 18th, 2006, 08:40 PM
the idea was good, the episode...mm not so much. There was something missing in here, something that conect the episode to what was going on in the season.
What I love to see about this episode was to see Lee making his own decision for the first time, but not even that convince me to much.
and then again he??..Lee Adama..sleeping with a whore??:mckay: :mckay:

Descent
September 25th, 2006, 03:22 AM
Well, that was... um... crap.

Very. The worst episode yet for BSG. I constantly found myself nodding along to Ron's podcast for this episode. And Fisk...what a waste.

MB.Eddie
January 2nd, 2007, 11:02 AM
Avg ep. Gave a good insight into the blackmarket and Lees past at least.

Kick-Kinsey
June 13th, 2007, 09:45 PM
Actually, I dunno if that makes it any better. She makes a play for Lee, loses, so goes back to Billy? That isn't too cool, either.

Overall the series could have done with a lot less soap opera

Catsitter
September 13th, 2007, 03:56 AM
I had heard this episode wasn't one of the best, so I wasn't expecting much from it, and that is what it delivered. It really does seem like a filler episode, and I'm looking forward to getting to the meatier ones at the end of the season (we're working through the DVD set).

AvatarIII
September 14th, 2007, 01:52 AM
do you think the ship being called prometheus was a dig at SG-1?

SGA fan
September 15th, 2007, 03:20 PM
do you think the ship being called prometheus was a dig at SG-1?

not sure alot of shows use the name :)

Colonel Crawford
March 8th, 2008, 09:12 PM
And Fisk...what a waste.

I know! They even built up his character when he saved Helo and Tyrol. I could not believe they threw him out....

Ulkesh47
July 7th, 2008, 09:15 PM
This is the worst episode of BSG, by far.
At this point in the series, Apollo became my least favorite character.

Kezia
August 15th, 2008, 01:35 PM
Caught this gem on the telly last night... wootcake! This is like my favourite BSG ep evah.

the fifth man
September 16th, 2010, 07:06 PM
My wife and I watched this episode tonight. She thought it was a different kind of BSG episode, but liked it.

Pharaoh Atem
September 18th, 2010, 10:14 AM
Caught this gem on the telly last night... wootcake! This is like my favourite BSG ep evah.

it's one of ron moore's least favrote eps

TBA
September 18th, 2010, 12:11 PM
Really? I thought it was a pretty decent episode.

Pharaoh Atem
September 18th, 2010, 01:26 PM
Really? I thought it was a pretty decent episode.

he said it in the podcast.

the fifth man
September 18th, 2010, 07:36 PM
he said it in the podcast.

Did he give any reasons why?

Pharaoh Atem
September 18th, 2010, 09:38 PM
Did he give any reasons why?

he wasn't happy with it from the start. he felt it could have been a lot better. i have the podcast saved on my computer i'll listen to it latter and type out what ron ssad.

the fifth man
September 19th, 2010, 05:41 PM
he wasn't happy with it from the start. he felt it could have been a lot better. i have the podcast saved on my computer i'll listen to it latter and type out what ron ssad.

Thanks, I hope that isn't too much trouble. I am just curious.

Pharaoh Atem
September 20th, 2010, 10:25 PM
Thanks, I hope that isn't too much trouble. I am just curious.
it isn't i'l get around to it at some point soon

the fifth man
September 21st, 2010, 06:06 PM
it isn't i'l get around to it at some point soon

No rush at all. Thank you, my friend.

Professor_S
June 8th, 2011, 05:08 PM
I am subjecting myself to this episode again because, well, I'm anal about my rewatches. I never skip anything.

Ah, the old 'starting at the end' schtick. Wasn't taken by it this time - felt unnecessary.

"Find anything else, I may retire early." -- Cottle is awesome! :D

While I like the idea of dealing with Lee's psychological state, that really ended up feeling secondary to the perfectly ordinary (i.e. done a million times before) procedural plot. :S And that bad guy? What a caricature...

Then, to get into Lee's head via a 'dumping' scene was disappointing, to say the least.

Professor_S
June 9th, 2011, 09:43 AM
Sorry for the double-post. the fifth man, I noticed you were looking for a podcast transcript a while ago. Here's the first half - I'm working on the second half now.

........

Hello and welcome to the podcast for episode 14, “Black Market.” I’m Ronald D. Moore, executive producer and developer of the new Battlestar Galactica. And, ah, today’s podcast we’re going to be doing a little bit different, actually, than the norm. We’re going to be talking about an episode that I don’t particularly like. And sort of discussing maybe the reasons why it doesn’t work, and sort of the problems that I think are inherent in this particular episode. I think I should also make clear from the outset that the criticisms and implied criticisms of this episode really should not be laid at the doorstep of the production team, or the cast, or crew, or the writing staff, or anybody else. It’s really, you know, my responsibility as head writer and, sort of, one of the executive producers. The decisions that sort of led to this episode being something that I’m not as enamoured with really can all be tracked backed to, sort of, decisions that I made at various stages in the creative process. So this is really kind of a podcast about self-examination and self-criticism more than anything else, and sort of going through why this particular episode doesn’t seem like it fits as well within the pantheon of what we’ve established.

Okay, here we are at the top of the show. This particular opening was not scripted this way - this was the ending. And it is - you know - it’s a flash forward to the end of the show with Lee facing down Bill Duke’s character, and the question of whether he’s going to shoot him or not. And then this provides essential the frame for the entire episode. But this was not as scripted. This came out - this move of putting the confrontation of Lee pointing the gun at Falon came out of desperation more than anything else. I saw the cut of “Black Market” initially and I was depressed, I wasn’t happy. I was disappointed in the show, in myself, in what we had done and didn’t feel like the episode really had anything going for it. That it started too slowly, the initial scenes were not engaging, the story wasn’t grabbing me, and so one of the ways we set out to try to fix the episode - to get the best episode that we could - I came up with this idea of well, let’s take (it’s a classic device; this is not rocket science), it’s take the end and put a piece of the end at the head of the episode so that you tease the drama. You’re essentially setting up a jeopardy situation that’s intriguing and compelling, one would hope, and let that pull the audience into the show so that they will then hang on, well “Who was the Bill Duke character?”, “Why is Lee pointing that gun?”, “Is he going to shoot him?” and that tension under-girds the episode. I think, the theory works. Surprisingly. It does provide a certain amount of tension throughout the episode. In fact that’s one of the few things the episode has going for it, in my opinion, is that we do have that sort of underlying question of “what is that confrontation about?” and “when are we going to get to it?”.

This story line came out of a lot of pretty interesting discussions in the writers’ room about the black market and what would be happening in the fleet. Our discussions centred around the notion of, well, what is really happening out there economically? Where are people getting things? Who are they turning to? Wouldn’t a criminal element crop up at some point? If not well before now, at least it can be acknowledged now. And how do the people in the government and in the military deal with these kinds of problems. There is no ‘police force’ that’s been established in the Ragtag Fleet and it doesn’t seem realistic that there could’ve been a police force established in the Ragtag Fleet to date. So, Adama, and the Galactica, and the Pegasus are really the only sort of enforcement that they have. And what happens when the new arrivals on Pegasus have their own agendas, their own backstories, their own motivations. What happens when you move them into this mix? And maybe the new man at the top gets involved in the black market.

I think one of the difficulties of the show conceptually is that the black market is a difficult concept in this particular world to sort of get your mind around. In the world of Galactica where the Ragtag fleet is out on its own - there is no socio-economic structure beyond the Ragtag fleet, there’s no government, there’s no social system, there’s no nothing other than these particular ships - isn’t everything black market? Isn’t everything to be bartered? One starts to wonder what the distinctions are that Laura is upset about. We sort of gravitate towards this place where we said, well, the criminal element and the black market is essentially taking essential goods and holding them hostage, and extorting other goods from other people. And some kind of system of distribution for rations and for goods is being upset because people are starting to exert undue pressures in certain directions on it. It’s sort of a heady, intellectual sort of argument; it doesn’t have the visceral nature of, well, there’s the thriving drug trade, or there’s a white slavery ring, or there’s something like that, which isn’t really where we wanted to go. It was supposed to sort of delineate both the socio-economic difficulties that the Ragtag fleet is dealing with, while also, at its core, of course, focusing on Lee Adama. This is a Lee story. And the sort of place that the Lee story starts from in this telling is from Lee classically going up the river - that’s an allusion to Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness, which is the basis for Apocalypse Now. It’s a model that is tossed about a lot in writers’ rooms and a lot of industry discussion has to do with... (My apologies we’re picking up a great deal of gardening noise today. Sorry, that’s the risk you run with these podcasts. Anyway...) Heart of Darkness is one of those archetypes that’s tossed about a lot in writers’ rooms. Where you’re taking a character that is, either literally or metaphorically, going up a river of darkness. Getting darker and darker, and going to places that the character never really thought that he would go. And so this is sort of Lee’s journey up the river, ultimately. Finding Kertz (sp?), as it were - the Bill Duke character.

I think we were all in love with the notion, on a character level... well, you know, I’ll get back to that. I was going to talk about Lee and the prostitute...

This sequence is sort of, you know... this is what’s wrong with the episode. This is far too conventional. I think, if I had to sum up what’s wrong with this episode in my opinion, it’s that this time we went for a much more ‘tv’, conventional tale, and execution. The murder of Fisk with the gadget, the reveal of the villain smoking the cigar - you kind of feel like this is a scene from another series. And I think that’s what disturbs me the most. This doesn’t feel as much like Galactica as it should. This feels a little bit more of television. Which sounds like a slap against television, and it kinda is. I mean, a lot of television is very comfortable, very predictable. The stories are quite conventional. You tune into most hour-long dramas on the air and you kinda know where the story’s going as soon as you tune in. There’s a familiarity and a comfort to that that audiences sort of look forward to on some level.

[ACT BREAK]

Professor_S
June 9th, 2011, 09:44 AM
RDM Podcast Continued....

.........

In our case, I don’t think that comfort and familiarity really work for us. I don’t think it’s helpful or useful that the audience knows where the story is going from the opening moments. I don’t think it really is in keeping with what the show tries to do, tries to be. Now, that said, we struggled mightily to try to bring a lot of an unexpected quality to this show. Part of that struggle was to give Lee a more complex personality, to sort of delve into darker waters with Lee, using the escape squence - rather the ejection sequence - from “Resurrection Ship” as sort of the jumping-off point in his own journey. And to discover things like Lee has this girl - that was in the teaser. And I do like the idea that Lee’s with this girl - he’s got this girl, and she’s got a daughter, and the scene’s very sweet, and then he pays her at the end. And the idea that there’s like this... prostitution is very common in the fleet and it was probably legal, you know, back on the Colonies before the attack. And that it’s not a major deal. It’s not like “Oh my god! Lee’s seeing a hooker!”. It’s sort of just dealt with. And in some sense, it sort of goes to, actually, ironically enough, an element of the original Battlestar Galactica series there was a character named Cassiopeia played by Laurette Spang who of course, every adolescent boy that watched it in 1978, including me, had the hots for her. And she was what was called the “socialator”, which was essentially a prostitute. It was legal on one colony, it wasn’t legal on another. And then she came aboard Galactica and became Starbuck’s girlfriend. So we kind of used that as a jumping-off point, that okay, it’s legal, and there’s something interesting about that world. And that Lee, the sort of classic, clean-cut, good guy, is actually seeing this hooker on the side, and has been for a while, and the implication is that he’s gotten caught up with her and is having a relationship with her that he did not anticipate. And he’s actually getting emotionally involved and that becomes sort of a vulnerability within the episode. That all seemed kind of interesting. And what made it even more interesting conceptually was the idea that through this story there would be flashbacks, not just with her, but that would actually delineate a relationship in Lee’s backstory that we hadn’t even hinted at. That there was a girl. That before the attack, you know, Lee was a man and had relationships, and why is that a surprise(?), and there was a girl that we didn’t know about. And that we would get hints of that, and we would get images of her. And that there would be this whole other tale that would start to come up. And we realize that actually Lee left somebody behind. That there was this tragic story of Lee and this woman, and she got pregnant, and he wasn’t ready. And he kind of panicked in the moment, and didn’t react well when she told him and she left. And he has all these regrets because then, you know, the world ended, quite literally. And that relationship was never resolved - it’s a thread of Lee’s life that dangles there and tortures him on a certain level, and it’s informing his relationship with the girl in the present.

It all sounds good. You know, it sounded interesting when we were talking about it. I think the problem is, is that when all is said and done, we didn’t get really deep enough into it. We didn’t really... we have these two contradictory impulses going on here in this episode. One is the plot, which is the ‘up the river’ aspect of it - here’s Lee, now, in this scene in Fisk’s quarters. He’s uncovering clues classically, he’s pocketing a clue, here’s a suspect - you know, there’s a procedural sort of aspect to this show that is driving the plot forward and sending Lee up the river. But on the other hand, we’re trying to tell this more texturalized, complicated backstory about one of our central characters. And peeling away layers of the onion, as it were, and discovering things about him as we go along. And, I’m still not quite sure, on some level, why that doesn’t gel better than it does. ‘Cuz, usually you try to marry up a good solid plot with a complicated, interesting character dynamic and, you know, usually that’s a formula for success. In this particular exercise, it feels like they... it’s not they really fight one another, because in strictly structural terms, the scene’s laid out quite nicely. I think it’s more in how we’ve executed this, and how we’ve actually chosen to tell these particular stories. The procedural aspect is not quite complicated enough; we don’t have quite enough twists and turns on the procedural level to make the plot rocket forward, and to give you enough, sort of, “Oh my god, I wasn’t expecting that to happen!” kind of moments to make the procedural aspect work. And on the character side of the street, the revelations of Lee and his past never quite get beyond the teasing phase. In other words we tease you with knowledge of him seeing a prostitute, we tease you with knowledge that there’s a blonde, other woman in his past; but the tease never quite leads you to consummation. You know, you never quite get the satisfaction of truly having gone through a plot that you had now idea where it was going to go, and are shocked where it ended up. And you’re not really sitting back and going “my god, Lee Adama is nothing like what I thought he was.” It just doesn’t... it kind of falls in between. It’s classically standing on the two chairs and sort of falling in between both of them.

And again, I have to keep going out of my way to say that this is not really the fault of the writer. Mark Verheiden wrote this episode, he’s our co-executive producer, he’s incredibly talented, he’s essentially my right-hand man on the writing staff. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Mark and his abilities. His draft and rewrites of “Black Market” were guided by me; I mean, I gave notes on this episode and I was very clear on what I wanted done. And I was very happy with it! That’s the other aspect of this that sometimes is surprising - that you get happy with a script and you think it’s working really well, and you get vaguely - more than vaguely, there were points in the process of this one when I was a bit defensive about criticism of this, I thought this was a good episode. And then you get to the place were you watch it and you go “oh my god, what was I thinking?” In fact, I actually alluded to that in a blog I wrote around the time that I was watching. The time that I watched the first cut of this episode it really depressed me, and I was very unhappy with myself. I was unhappy with what I had done as executive producer, with the piece of material that we had produced, and realized that all the decisions, all the fundamentals of why the show didn’t work, and what was wrong with it, could all be laid at my doorstep. And I wrote - it was a blog, right - I alluded to the fact that I was really unhappy. You know, “oh my god, this is terrible!” - I didn’t really want to say what it was at that point, ‘cuz you know, hope springs eternal, and you hope that you’re going to turn it around and get it to a great place. But now the truth can be told.

Professor_S
June 9th, 2011, 09:45 AM
RDM Podcast Continued -

.......

In any case, we went through a great deal of revision and editing. We played around with structure quite a bit: where the flashbacks would take place, what order they were shown in. Oh, ah, I should say that this scene with Tigh and Lee is my favourite scene in the episode, and other people on the show agree. This scene works really well. ‘Cuz this scene is actually Battlestar Galactica. This is two of our characters coming into confrontation over something personal. It deals with actual ethical issues. Tigh, Ellen, and Ellen’s involvement in the black market. And she’s gettin’ things for Tigh, who is a senior officer on Galactica. There is a whiff of corruption here. And what does it mean? We don’t take the easy way out - Tigh isn’t shocked at what his wife is doing and promises never to do it again. He understands what she’s doing, there’s an implication, you know, who knows what else Ellen is doing with Commander Fisk - I’m not sure that’s a picture I want in my mind, but you know, okay... And Lee is also a bit dirty in this scene. Lee is also engaged in things that are probably not that above board. There’s an implication that Lee helped get the medicine for the little girl, and probably went outside official channels. And it’s a personal, emotional confrontation with people with conflicted and conflicting motivations. And, I think this scene works particularly well. It’s also extremely well acted and shot, and this scene changed very little in the editorial process. We were always kinda proud of this scene, and we always liked this scene, and this would always be the moment when you would start - look at that. Look at that look on Tigh’s face. I mean, that speaks volumes about who that man is, and the character of that man. You know, he’s a complicated, complex individual, and you can love and hate him in the very same moment. Michael Hogan has really developed a singular character within this series and within science fiction in general. I don’t know who to compare the character of Tigh to at this point, and that’s in large measure due to what Michael brings to it. And I should also just say, being critical of the show, the cast never lets you down. The cast delivers. The cast takes the material, elevates the material. The cast is right there for you. So, it’s really, again, all the things we’re talking about go back to the script and why the script isn’t working.

This scene comes out of nowhere a little bit; but there was another scene that we cut where Dualla was following Lee out of the raptor when Lee arrived back on Galactica earlier, and they had a similar conversation in that she was hinting that there was something going on between them, he didn’t want to talk about it. He was caught up in his own thing, his own demons about the girl he left behind, literally the girl he left behind back on Caprica. And, we started to sort of repeat scenes in a bad way. This is interesting in that Dualla says - puts her cards on the table to an extent and says - you know, “what’s the deal, Captain?... Major?” Oh, I didn’t mean to say ‘Major’ ‘cuz that’s gonna be a surprise later! Whatever... We cut and recut this scene - there was a lot more dialogue here where Lee explained himself more, talked more in general terms about themselves, but ultimately got to the same place where he didn’t know what to say. And we chopped all of that dialogue and stripped the scene down to its emotional essence. You’re not quite clear what’s going on with these two, neither are they. That kinda works. But again, it’s not really getting deep enough, it’s not really getting to a place where we’re explaining, or at least hinting, or making you think about what is the nature of the relationship between Dualla and Lee. Why is Lee interested in her and vice versa? What does it mean to him as a character? We had conversations in the writers’ room that dealt with things like, “well, Lee’s got the girl he left behind on Caprica, he’s seeing the prostitute, and then there’s Dualla.” So there’s the classic, sort of, there’s three women in Lee’s life. One dead and two not. What does Dualla represent in all that? What is Dualla to Lee in juxtaposition to the dead woman and to the hooker with the little girl? Is she the hope? Is she the future? Is she something more realistic? Is the hooker the hope? I mean, there’s a lot of, sort of, ways you can sit and talk about it endlessly about what it all represents. And it was all fascinating conversation; unfortunately it doesn’t quite sink into what we had. You never quite get to a place where you’re rooting for Lee and Dualla. I think that might be the central problem, is that you’re never quite rooting for her.

Again, we’re back to sort of the James Bond-ian kind of thing coming off of his wrist. This sequence, I think, moved up an act - a full act! - so that we could get a little more juice going into the early going. And enter Bill Duke. Bill Duke, is like, a great actor! I so like Bill Duke. I’ve always liked his work. He’s also a great director at this point, and having him on the show was a big plus. It’s a big plus in the episode because he brings a presence and a weight, and a threat that sort of gives you a needed discomfort, in the sense that something terrible’s going to happen. And now that we know that he’s the ultra bad guy from the tease, you’re sort of looking forward to these confrontations to see where it’s going to lead, and you know Lee’s gonna pull a gun on him. So that’s all going to the good. I think, to the bad is that the character we’ve drawn is too broad. That he’s too much of the ‘big baddie’.

[ACT BREAK]

(Second half of podcast to follow)

Professor_S
June 9th, 2011, 10:38 AM
RDM Podcast Continued -

........

I was saying he’s too - Bill Duke’s character is too much of a ‘big bad’ character. He’s just a little over-the-top. He just doesn’t fit. I mean, right down to his suit, which, you know, is a perfectly lovely suit and, sorry Glenn, who’s our costume designer - it’s really not her fault. But again, it goes to who the character is. The Big Bill Duke, with the cigar in his mouth, and entering and saying the lines as scripted - it feels pretty much like he just walked over from the sound-stage adjacent to Battlestar Galactica, and entered into our show. There’s such a sort of disconnect between the reality we’ve established and carefully cultivated and Falon’s entrance into that world and the way he behaves.

Interesting scene coming up here with - I believe we’re going to Richard. Are we going to Richard Hatch here? See sometimes I even forget where we are. No this is... no we’re not going to Richard right away.

This scene works well. This scene with Baltar and Laura is nice. I like the fact that it’s following up with the revelation of “Epiphanies”. That, you know, Laura knows Baltar’s secret. Or at least, knows in her gut, even if she doesn’t have a shred of evidence. And there’s not a single thing that she could do to actually out Baltar. I mean, what can she really say? She can’t really go around and say “Well, you know when I was dying, and they were pumping body with the cylon baby’s blood, and I had all those drugs and I was pretty much out of it? In that moment, I kinda remember this moment that I haven’t mentioned for the past couple of months and oh yeah, Baltar’s working with the cylons.” She can’t really do that. They’d say she’s crazy, there’s nothing to back it up. It’s his word versus her word. It’s also nice in that we’ve innoculated Baltar from that particular charge in Season 1, during “Six Degrees of Separation”, the episode where the other Six, the Shelley Godfrey character shows up and accuses him of just that thing, and he is ultimately exonerated. If Laura came out and started accusing him of the exact same charge now, there’d be a sense of ‘been there, done that’. And I don’t think she would get anywhere. And just she would have sort of needlessly provoked confrontation with her vice president. Nevertheless, she doesn’t trust him, doesn’t like him, wants him to go away. So this is sort of Laura’s tack, is to sort of go to him one on one, and try to get him quietly to go do something else, and try to play to the fact that she knows he doesn’t like being vice president. But it pricks Baltar’s ego. That’s the thing that I think anyone and everyone probably underestimates about Gaius Baltar is the truly [laughing] astonishing size of the man’s ego. And there’s a very straight line that can be drawn from here to the season finale, from this moment. From Baltar starting as a disinterested political player who just sort of fell into the vice presidency for other reasons, to the point where he’s going to be seriously considering a presidential run himself, kinda begins here, where the character just cannot be insulted. The character cannot be, like, told that, you know, that you’re not up to the job, or maybe you should do something else. Any implication that maybe he’s not capable of doing something, the man can react in extraordinary ways. You saw this at the end of “Epiphanies”, that the criticism in Laura’s letter prompting this reaction to give a nuclear weapon to terrorists! I mean the man is a dangerous man because of the incredibly fragile nature of his ego, combined with the amazing breadth of his intellect.

This is an interesting little scene because it brings Zarek back into the mix. It sort of has Zarek say things that I think need to be said in the episode. It’s interesting to play Zarek as the realist - the guy that’s way ahead of the curve, that knows how these things work and operate. That the black market is going to happen, that you’re foolish to try and stop it, and he’s you know... I like the fact that Zarek knows what Lee was doing here, that he sort of has his people all over the place. It’s always good to put him and Lee into confrontation, which has been something we’ve been doing since “Bastille Day”. It’s a nice little beat. And again, Richard comes through for us and gives us a nice little jolt right when we wanted it. Unfortunately, it just doesn’t quite go far enough. You know, he’s not involved enough, and he’s not interested enough. It’s a complicated, somewhat complicated backstory, with logs, Fisk went to see Zarek, there was talk that happened, Zarek’s not involved in the black market because Fisk was asking for too much of his cut, and he sends Lee on the road to this ship that... See, it’s a contradiction. We’re sort of playing that Zarek needs to tell Lee about Falon and about this ship out there where you can get anything you want. It’s sort of the hub, or the nexus of the black market. And yet everybody else seems to know about it. It’s clearly the place where all this activity’s going, but somehow Lee needs to be told by Zarek that it exists, which tends to undercut Lee’s role as an investigator. The procedural aspect starts to sort of feel a bit weak because you kinda feel like he should’ve, Lee should’ve known all that on his own, but... again, it’s an element that doesn’t work. It’s not a result of the director or the cast, it’s a problem with script. Generally speaking, while there have certainly been exceptions, things that don’t work usually can be traced back to something that doesn’t work on the page. Especially when you’re looking at an episode in a larger sense, when you’re looking at an overall sweep of an episode and why things work and they don’t work. Generally, it’s something to do with the script. Sometimes it’s a director who doesn’t get an episode or get the show. Or, you know, an actor who can’t quite deliver on the material that you’re giving them. That happens, sure it happens. There’s people that don’t do exactly what they need to do in all categories all the time. That’s just, that’s life. But, usually, in television at least, it’s more a result of the material. It’s more a result of, you didn’t give them the building blocks to create the thing that you’re trying to create. You didn’t provide the right raw materials, you didn’t give them a good blueprint for this house, and they go out and they build the house and the house is leaning to one side, and you say “oh, well, the idiotic carpenters didn’t do it right.” Well, it might be that the blueprint was off. That’s probably more in keeping than the carpenter doesn’t know how to -- [phone rings] Oh. There’s the phone. I’m sure everyone’s very happy about that. I’ll try to [ring] dim it as best I can. Sorry folks.

So Lee leaves the Richard Hatch confrontation. Again, we’re back on Cloud Nine - I’ve talked about Cloud Nine before in “Epiphanies” and how we always wanted this sort of darker, edgier place, but Cloud Nine, for budgetary reasons, we’d established that particular set and we continued to use it.

[ACT BREAK]

Professor_S
June 9th, 2011, 11:07 AM
RDM Podcast Continued -

...........

Okay. Now we’re with Lee. There’s also a sort of a subplot here that got dropped, that I kinda wish had not been dropped, which is that Lee there in that raptor is actually flying for the first time since the ejection sequence, since his experience in “Resurrection Ship”. That sort of texture got lost, and his return to full flight status, and the fact that he was avoiding it, or maybe deliberately avoiding, deliberately failing some of the flight physicals because he was on some level afraid, on some level didn’t want to get back in the cockpit. That all kinda got dropped along the way, which is unfortunate.

Prometheus is the ship I was talking about earlier. The ship where you get everything you need. It felt realistic that a ship like this, and probably several ships, would exist. I mean, these people are out on their own and they have, you know, some ships have more goods than others. There’s certainly going to be high value trade in things that people want. Where does Cottle get his cigarettes? He probably gets his cigarettes from here. I like that shot, with the Galactica guys getting their own things too. The problem, again - I talked about this earlier - you’re not quite sure why this is all a problem. Why is any of this raising an eyebrow? Why is this illegal? People need things, the entire economic structure has been shattered, of course they’re going to barter, of course they’re going to be there trying to deal things. And it’s no shock that they’re deal drugs. You know, okay, no kidding. Maybe the authorities want to try to discourage that as much as possible, but it’s crazy to think it’s not going to exist.

This kind of tips us into a different territory. Now there’s, like, kids being handed around. Now there’s kids being bought and sold, is the implication. This is the only place that you kind of get to “Oh! Now I see why the black market’s a bad deal,” because we’ve got, you know, kiddies being traded back and forth. I don’t think that’s quite fair, I think, to the audience or to the characters. It’s sort of a cheap shot that we’ve gone for here. That “it’s the kids,” you know; I always hesitate to start doing that. To do something like that in order to really under-gird the point, it’s because you haven’t really established the rest of it as clearly being bad enough. It’s almost a desperation move - “well, it’s about the kids”. The kid gets caught up in it. I kinda wish we didn’t need to do that.

And again, this sequence just feels familiar. I feel like I’ve been in rooms like this with lead characters on many other movies and tv shows. I just kinda know where the scene’s going: there’s the bad guy, we’re now going to have the confrontation, there’s gonna be a lot of talk, there’s gonna be, you know, the head bad guy confronting the classic hero, telling him in very cynical terms why the hero’s view of the world doesn’t apply, the hero trying to maintain his own credibility, blah blah blah. It’s a scene that kind of writes itself. In the end the thing that does make it work, if it works at all, is that we had Bill Duke. I mean, Bill Duke gives you sort of this interesting presence and textures that you wanna watch, and I find myself always watching him. Every word he says, I’m always just watching Bill Duke, and the sort of fascinating way he plays his characters. The best thing in the whole show, in my personal opinion, is the end. Is that Lee shoots him, which is an early idea in the whole episode, that you get to that classic moment where Walker Texas Ranger, or fill-in-the-blank - Sonny Crockett - is pointing the gun at the bad guy, and the bad guy says “you won’t shoot me,” and, lo and behold, they always find an excuse for the good guy to shoot the bad guy. The bad guy goes for the gun, the bad guy makes a move, there’s some double cross, and then you always get the satisfaction, the sort of visceral blood-lust of the audience demanding that the bad guy get shot, but never quite being brave enough to just have the hero shoot the bad guy, which, you know, brings its own set of moral and ethical issues. It’s sort of like, the convention of that particular story has always been good guy won’t shoot the bad guy unless the bad guy threatens him in some way; but it’s a complete manipulation because the audience’s only interest is to see the bad guy get shot. But the audience wants to have it both ways. The audience sort of wants to be satisfied, and have their blood-lust satisfied in that, “well, thank god I got to see Walker Texas Ranger shoot this guy”, but, you know, the bad guy kinda reached for a gun, or he kinda flinched, or, you know, he double-crossed him, and that’s why the good guy’s still good. And I was interested in subverting that, and okay, you want your blood-lust satisfied? Fine. Hero’s gonna shoot the bad guy, but guess what? Hero’s just gonna shoot him. He’s just gonna execute him, and how do you feel about that. ‘Cuz again, that’s sort of the territory that I’m more interested in in the show, is presenting more complicated moral dilemmas to the audience, to not giving them sort of the pure, clean comfort of hero shoots bad guy ‘cuz bad guy did something bad. But making it more complex, where “thank god, I really wanted hero to shoot bad guy, but I’m not quite entirely comfortable with the way it happened. And how do I feel about that?” That’s territory I think the show is better equipped to explore and and the show fires on all cylinders when it does go to that territory.

Here, I think the problem is that beyond that sort of simple - what’s the word I’m looking for? - beyond the sort of diagrammed explication of the conflict and why it works and it doesn’t work that I just outlined about hero, villain, and audience expectation, etc. etc. That beyond the sort of simple construction of that as an intellectual exercise, I don’t know that we’ve delivered on the central premise here, which is that Bill Duke’s statement at the head of the show - “You won’t shoot me, you’re not like me” - when Lee shoots him, you should feel that he shoots him because “oh my god, I’m realizing that he is like Bill Duke. And oh, woah, I’m like shocked. And that’s - I don’t know how I feel about Lee, but I’m really surprised ‘cuz he’s more like Bill Duke than I thought.” I don’t think the show really says that. I don’t think we’ve accomplished that mission. That should’ve been the mission. If you’re going to predicate a whole show on this concept of this initial confrontation, it should pay off that idea.

[ACT BREAK]

Professor_S
June 9th, 2011, 11:34 AM
RDM Podcast *Last Part* -

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And it doesn’t pay off that idea. It sets up the pieces and yet doesn’t really give you a sense of satisfaction when it’s all over with. So now we’ve caught up to the tease at this point.

It’s close. It’s kinda there. He’s saying the right things, and if the journey to get to this place had been richer and more complicated, and you felt a little bit more drift ethically and morally in the show when you get to this moment, it would work. It’s an interesting idea. It’s an interesting show conceptually, it just doesn’t quite play in specific terms, which is unfortunate. You try to make each episode the best you possibly can. I think one of the problems is, frankly, the difference between a 13-episode and 20-episode season is that it’s harder to maintain the same level of quality on every single episode. 13 is easier in that you’re -- why aren’t these guys beating the crap outta Lee, I don’t know... -- but you know, when you have 13, there’s just more of an opportunity to make each one a gem. And I think we were able to do that in the first season. There never was a point in the first season where I felt the need, obviously, to get on a podcast and say “hey, I don’t like this episode as much” and here we are. So, that alone should speak volumes about the difference between the two. That said, there’s no excuse. 20 or 22... I mean, we did 26 at Star Trek when I was there. That’s what the job is. That’s what they pay you for. That’s what you’re here to do, is to deliver every episode. To make every episode work. To make every episode a winner. To satisfy the audience every single week, and if you don’t do that there’s no sense crying about it and whining about it, and “oh, it’s so hard! Oh, it’s hard. It’s just hard,” you know “fightin’ terrorism is hard.” If you just stand around sayin’ it’s hard, well then you shouldn’t really be doing the job, and I like doing this job. The challenge is to do it better. To say “you know what? that was stupid. And I don’t know how I let that one get past the goalie and get into the net, but, you know, go back out there and don’t let that happen again. Don’t let season 3 have a weak link. Make all 20 of season 3 a gem. That’s your job, and you need to go do your ****ing job. ‘Cuz no one else is gonna do it for you.”

This... your heart should just be torn out at this point in the story. In the drama, you know if you’re looking at this in terms of puzzle pieces, this piece of the puzzle should just be devastating, and you should just be caught up in this relationship. And you should also realize that not only is this relationship screwed up and doomed, obviously, but that the thing about the backstory should tear out your heart. I mean, all of these things... this should be the emotional centre of the show. If the action and suspense centre of the show was when he shoots Bill Duke, this should be the moment when all the emotional threads come together and pay off. But it doesn’t. It’s a little too simplistic, it’s not quite - it’s just not quite there.

We go from - when we go back to Galactica, the final scene with Eddie [Olmos] and Jamie [Bamber], the Adama/Lee scene, was actually something that Mark Verheiden - [laughs] - Mark Stern came up with. But oh, we’re not there yet --

This is an interesting sort of call-back to the end of “Bastille Day” which was a similar sort of concept in that it was an all Lee story that dealt with him dealing with, wrestling with moral issues, and then gets to a place where he had made decisions and went back to tell the higher-ups about what he had decided.

I don’t quite understand this. I don’t quite understand what’s really happened in this scene. Was he supposed to wipe out the black market? Was it supposed to get to the root of the criminal enterprise? Laura’s trying to institute an economic system, she’s trying to make an official sort of trade policies - what does it all mean? How bad is the stuff that’s happening out there on the ship? Adama’s giving Lee authority over it, why? It’s a confused moment. It’s a confused moment.

This is an interesting little shot that I wish went somewhere more interesting. The somewhat - it somewhat implies that in the death of Falon, Zarek shows up and sort of takes over. That’s somewhat the implication, but it doesn’t really go anywhere. So again it’s sort of a grab-bag of things we’re trying to do here.

I like this little beat because it’s interesting to remind the audience that, “oh yeah, she’s with Billy.” You know, that there is a triangle here, which is an nice, interesting little texture.

This scene, I think had a lot to do with Mark Stern, who is our network executive at SyFy channel - the interaction between Lee and Adama. I think he wanted more in the script, a more interesting beat at the end ‘cuz there wasn’t much there. This was his idea and thank god he did, he gave that note. A lot times you hear writers, producers bagging on studio and/or network execs about interference, and dumb notes, or whatever. That’s not always true. Sometimes they add things that are quite valuable. If Mark hadn’t given us the idea for this scene and talked to us about the content of this scene, we wouldn’t have a nice ending to the show. And we have a great little ending to the show here - “You should’ve told me about the woman.” That’s a nice beat. I like the look on Lee’s face to end the episode.

So there you have it. There’s “Black Market”. There’s my sort of, you know, digging through the guts of a show and telling you all the reasons why it doesn’t work. So, I hope you’re happy now. [acts sad] I hope you’re happy that you’ve broken me down to this level. [speaking normally again] Next week, I can tell you we have a great episode. “Scar” will be something I think we’re all very proud of and very excited about and I look forward - forward! - I’m looking forward to going through the podcast commentary track on that with you. Thank you and good night!