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GateWorld
January 2nd, 2006, 07:46 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/2111.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px solid black" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888">GALACTICA SEASON TWO</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">RESURRECTION SHIP,<BR> PART 1</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 211</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
Adama and Admiral Cain must put aside their differences when they receive new intelligence about a Cylon "Resurrection ship." But a new revelation about Cain's past actions could unravel their alliance entirely.

<FONT SIZE=1><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

MASON
January 6th, 2006, 07:52 PM
So... was it good, great, or merely fantastic?

I'll have to wait some time before I can see it in Canada. ;)

captainpash
January 6th, 2006, 08:00 PM
It was the best. I loved it not going to spoil it for you, but cain is a witch with a b. I loved the intercut between, cain, and adama for those who saw the show it was prefect.

walterIsTheMan
January 6th, 2006, 08:14 PM
I liked it. Can't wait to find out what happens next week:cameron:.

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
January 6th, 2006, 08:24 PM
Good episode. I love the Blackbird, it's a sweet viper

SG-1ssm
January 6th, 2006, 08:36 PM
Ya the next episode is going to be really good.

MASON
January 6th, 2006, 08:39 PM
Good episode. I love the Blackbird, it's a sweet viper
Quoting the BattlestarWiki.org, "Executive Producer David Eick stated in his video blog that the Blackbird is "not a Viper", so it is not classed as a modified Viper model ("Viper Mark VIII", etc), but is an entirely distinct craft."

Sorry, but on these boards you're encouraged to be a stickler for this kind of stuff. :P :D

spg_1983
January 6th, 2006, 08:39 PM
:thoranime09: So good! Im still geeking out over it, it was awesome!

CKO
January 6th, 2006, 09:02 PM
gods talk bout intense and a frakkin' evil cliffy to boot as well... gods when is part two gonna be up... oh yea next friday.. *mutters something bout the evil wait between kick ass eppys*

LoneStar1836
January 6th, 2006, 09:25 PM
Did I mention how much I love Roslin. She kicks you know what and doesn’t pull punches. :cool: I totally didn’t see her to be the one to say that Cain needed to be taken out. Whoa. Course I’m glad they didn’t write Adama initially agreeing with her, leaving him to have to mull over the idea.

And man…Adama willing to risk the lives of Kara and his own son to take Cain out. She doesn’t go anywhere without her goon squad bodyguards so they are bound to be willing to kill for her by shooting first and asking questions later.

ETA:
Cain needing a whole squad of Marines to take out Galactica’s command while Adama just sends in Kara and Lee shows the contrast between the two sides. Cain knows all of Adama’s people are loyal to him so more than Adama must/will die once the shooting starts, yet it appears that Adama seems to think that Cain’s people mostly follow out of fear. (Course he also doesn’t have the option of sending over Marines.) Cain has to specify that the most loyal Marines must be chosen for the task on her side. Hmm… I’m not so sure Fisk is Cain’s lapdog. He seems conflicted. Any loyal person wouldn’t be so quick to offer up information that he knows is damming to his CO. Course Cain is probably so paranoid and doesn’t fully trust anyone. I’m sure she’ll review the list of Marines sent to Galactica and make sure some of her flunkies are included since I wouldn’t doubt that she may not fully trust Fisk to carry out the order to off Adama.

Favorite scenes where most definitely Colonial One Roslin/Cain/Adama get together. EJO played that scene well with his body language. "I wouldn't count on that" in response to Roslin's remark that the Pegasus would win in shooting match. :D And then the rest of the Adama/Roslin ones.

Not quite the intense episode I was looking for, but still great nonetheless. It went by entirely too fast. I look at the clock and it's half over unlike SGA which just seemed to drag on forever.

Minniyar
January 6th, 2006, 09:26 PM
I thought it was very good. The way they did the sequencing film cutting between Admiral Cain and Commander Adama at the end was very cool and really ups the tension of the moment. I'm looking forward to next week (well duh, who isn't).

Was it just me or does it seem that Lee seems kind of mentally adrift after some of the events in this episode... Like he's suddenly not sure where he belongs or even IF he belongs.

Arative
January 6th, 2006, 09:30 PM
Damn BSG is probably the best show on TV, its a shame that it doesn't reach a larger audience because its labeled Sci-fi.

This episode was abolutely fantastic and had me wanting so much more. For the first time ever I actually yelled at my tv when that to be continued came on. Hats off to the cast and crew for putting out such an engaging show.

Grace's and Tricia's portrayal of two traumatized women in this episode and Pegasus went so much further in humanizing the cylons then all of the previous scenes I've seen, was absolutly brillant.

Ok, ok done gushing like a fanboi!! :)

Roslin took a harder line than I thought she was capable of, telling Adama to kill Cain. Its not something that I thought she would have been capable of but I guess not too suprised given the fact that she had Leoben blown out the airlock but that was a cylon not a human.

I was also suprised to see Adama order the killing of Cain, wasn't the least suprised at Cain ordering Adama's death. That chick is crazy. I really think she lost it when the cylon's attacked and has barely held on since then.

Its good to see Starbuck commanding, shows what potential she has if she doesn't let her attitude get in the way. I keep wondering if she's actually going to shoot Cain, guess I have to wait and see.

daredevil
January 6th, 2006, 10:02 PM
I think it will be Gina, look at some of the part 2 spoiler pics, the hand that is holding the sidearm look to have a broken cuff and wearing the same clothing as Gina..

ToasterOnFire
January 6th, 2006, 10:25 PM
Was anyone else reminded of a teacher reprimanding two bad students when Roslin was talking to Cain and Adama on Colonial One? Makes sense though, considering Roslin's past occupation. So funny to see two commanders of battlestars practically pouting in their chairs, not to mention Adama's quick retort when Roslin said that the Pegasus would win a starship fight. "Nuh UH! My battlestar would TOTALLY kick your battlestar's butt!" :D

Carbito
January 6th, 2006, 10:38 PM
Awesome episode!
I think we have already begun to see the change in Starbuck. It will be really interesting to see how Starbuck and the Pegasus guy (whats his name?) handle thier assignments next week.

Callsign:Spooky
January 6th, 2006, 10:40 PM
So... was it good, great, or merely fantastic?

I'll have to wait some time before I can see it in Canada. ;)

How about frack me? Is that an option? Seriously though....OMG....This two parter should be in the fracking theatre. Pretty much EVERYTHING I've seen in the theatre this summer (Couple exceptions.) doesn't compare to what was on this evening. When I win the lotto I’m going to build the Battlestar Theatre chain that shows nothing but Battlestar on the big screen. Each week every week.

Callsign:Spooky
January 6th, 2006, 10:46 PM
Was anyone else reminded of a teacher reprimanding two bad students when Roslin was talking to Cain and Adama on Colonial One?

People with wisdom and good temperament are very much like that.

Astrofighter
January 6th, 2006, 11:04 PM
WOAH!!!!

Man o' man i've been waiting so long for that and it held up to all my expectations to the T. My only worry is that the 2nd part may get rushed since they are pretty much ready to go and the end of this episode. Well rushed or not its going to be spectacular.

madk99
January 6th, 2006, 11:05 PM
So... was it good, great, or merely fantastic?

I'll have to wait some time before I can see it in Canada. ;)
Oh yeah, it was cool!:cool:
No disappointments -- at all!!

I was extremely pleased to see the president finally act like the president. Even though I thought she was a little quick to suggest political assasination. But then again she was certainly correct in her assessment. Perhaps Adama just needed to see a little more evidence. But he certainly saw that.

And the two little schoolyard kids sitting in front of the teacher was classic.

MikeMcMahon
January 7th, 2006, 12:21 AM
[...]
The look on Starbuck's face as she realizes what Adama is ordering her to do...

Quinn Mallory
January 7th, 2006, 12:32 AM
Great episode in keeping the suspense that was built up in "Pegasus". I'm disappointed in the "to be continued" aspect, despite the name of episode being a dead give away that things will be not resolved.

At least it does appear that things won't be dragged out quite as long as the beginning of season 2 (which was fine but I'm just a bit impatient to see some resolution at times).

DigiFluid
January 7th, 2006, 03:30 AM
Good episode, but I'm not terribly satisfied with the end. Adama asking Starbuck to commit murder seems exceedingly out of character, even given the circumstances.

Blue Banrigh
January 7th, 2006, 05:03 AM
Great episode, I couldn't believe how fast time flew by. Man, you could cut the tension with the knife.

Loved the viper fight at the beginning, the way the dodged each other and how they pulled together to go after the stealth ship. Beautiful.


And man…Adama willing to risk the lives of Kara and his own son to take Cain out. She doesn’t go anywhere without her goon squad bodyguards so they are bound to be willing to kill for her by shooting first and asking questions later.
Good point. Never thought about that.

Hatcheter
January 7th, 2006, 05:13 AM
Frak me sideways. Next week won't come soon enough. Easily the nest cliff-hanger resolution of the night, and probably ever. This is the best show on television.

What an ending, dueling assassination plots. I do wonder if Fisk will actually carry through. He seems to obey the admiral out of fear, not respect. Safely on the Galactica, he may turn on her.

Captain Starbuck (lol), on the other hand, will be completely faithful to Adama. Though it should be interesting to see how it plays out for her, if she has to go through with it.

Oh gods, is it Friday yet?

Blue Banrigh
January 7th, 2006, 05:16 AM
Oh gods, is it Friday yet?
Seven more days Hatch, seven long days.

IMO, I don't think Fisk will carry out the order. I don't think Kara will either.

les fleurs
January 7th, 2006, 05:27 AM
i don't see Adama allowing marines on his bridge w/o some way of making sure they won't kill him. anyone notice how Cain told Fisk to "elinimate Adama's command" while Adama said stright up " take out your gun and shoot her in the head"?
Cian has major issues, she wants to hurt the Cylons no matter what the cost.

Minniyar
January 7th, 2006, 05:31 AM
Eliminate Adama's command, starting with Commander Adama.

Ergo..

Kill every officer you can that is in the CIC? That's how I read that.

CKO
January 7th, 2006, 07:38 AM
but the ya'lls should know by know that Cain is a mean (fill in the blank with the cuss word of your choice) and will be gettin' elimanated.... gods i really hate her...

Astrofighter
January 7th, 2006, 08:37 AM
After looking at the promo, it looks to me like it will be some sort of stalemate some how and adama will eventually kill cain. If you saw the promo you can see someone handing a pistol across. Then you look and seen cain say something along the line of frak you or something like that with a gun coming up. I dont know it would just seem like the way of the show for adama to do it himself.

Skydiver
January 7th, 2006, 09:29 AM
this was so goood!!!!!

i sat there, not really chatting to anyone because it demanded my full attention

cain is so freaking nuts! the woman is psycho. killing her crew, murdering civilians, allowing the cylon to be gang raped. she is seriously cracked

i like roslin having the balls to say that cain needed to die. i love laura more and more. adama understated when he said 'she's come a long way'

of couse, she also knows that she has nothing to lose. she's a dead woman walking. and she defends the civilians of the fleet like a lioness would her cubs. and cain is a threat to those civilians.

i l ove the dual assassinations and i personally think that fisk will turn on cain. he's tired of the killing and will see adama as a chance to end it. and i also think that it's not kara who kills cain, it's Gina.

whether or not gina survives is up in the air.

but i do think that there's a chance to 'save' laura.

think of the irony, they can 'destroy' the resurrection ship and find a way to resurrect laura, possibly in a new, healthy body. imagine the irony of a human surviving as or through cylon tech to lead the humans to salvation

skrip00
January 7th, 2006, 09:40 AM
Best part IMO:

Roslin: We all know that the Pegasus can win an engagement with Galactica...
Adama: (mutters) I doubt that.

AutumnDream
January 7th, 2006, 09:48 AM
I don't have an expression of shock strong enough to describe how mind-blowing that episode was. Then again, I'd have to use the same one for every other episode of the series. I'm new here in the BSG forum, because I sorta speed watched 20 episodes in one week to catch up. :D (They're addictive!)

-Add Laura to my favorites list alongside Gaius and Starbuck. The "We've gotta kill her" line was too cool.
-Gooooo Adama. He's the man.
-I like Cain's XO guy. He seems nice, and I bet he'll turn on her when it comes down to it.
-The reason Adama sent Starbuck and Lee to kill Cain as opposed to her sending a bunch marines is because he knows Starbuck could single-handedly kill everyone on Pegasus if she felt crazy enough that day. :p
-Loved the ending.
-Good character scene when Lee visited Helo and the Chief in the brig.
-I can't even remember all the other stuff that rocked, the ep was too packed with good stuff.

spg_1983
January 7th, 2006, 10:22 AM
but i do think that there's a chance to 'save' laura.

think of the irony, they can 'destroy' the resurrection ship and find a way to resurrect laura, possibly in a new, healthy body. imagine the irony of a human surviving as or through cylon tech to lead the humans to salvation
I agree they are going to find a way to save Roslin possibly through the cylons but i dont think they will go so far as to make her a new body. For one thing I dont think t would be the same trying to transfer Roslins conciousness and a cylons, the cylons are computer minds designed for that process, Roslins isn't. Also even if it were possible I don't think Roslin or the other colonials would go for it, it would just be wrong for them. The cylon bodies arent pure biological, they are an artificial framework with biological camoflage, given the horros the Cylons have commited and the near religios Jihad the colonials have towards destroying the Cylons, it would never be accepted.

captainpash
January 7th, 2006, 10:25 AM
-Good character scene when Lee visited Helo and the Chief in the brig.


I know that was pretty good, I think that lee would rather be in there than with the rest of the pegasus crew, and it shows how the two crews are. I loved Helo comment on how the cylons were the enemy. It might have been the chief, but I can't remeber. I also think that having starbuck premoted, and lee's flight status being taken away was interesting because we now know that even though lee took the iniative, and gave the order to starbuck, and even ordered her to do the fly by that cain hates all the adama's.

keshou
January 7th, 2006, 10:32 AM
The worst part about this episode was the "to be continued" at the end. The hour just flew by and I was riveted the whole time.

*Loved the whole scene with Roslin, Adama and Cain on Colonial One. Roslin was very cool and handled it well....later whispering to EJO that Cain needs to be taken out. She HAS come a long way. EJO was great - he can say more sitting in a chair than most actors can with pages of dialogue. And I thought the scenes between Adama and Roslin, when she was laying in bed, were really good. I really like this new dynamic between them now that they're on equal footing and have become friends. There's no way they're killing off Roslin - I'm guessing some knowledge or technology provided by the Cylons will save her. For now.

*Starbuck. I thought one of the more interesting scenes in the show was the conversation between Cain and Starbuck. Cain seemed to be getting to Starbuck there by dangling the carrot of "Caprica" in front of her.

*Baltar/Gina interaction was also compelling, I jumped out of my chair when Gina started choking him. Then to see her break down and beg Baltar to kill her. Have to give Tricia Helfer credit. I thought she was just a tall blond model/turned actress with a great body. And she certainly has the great body -- quite evident last night - but she's also showing some real range playing Gina.

*I also liked the character moments with Helo and the Chief in the brig. Certainly glad to hear Helo finally wondering about his child and to see Tyrol coming to grips with his feelings about Sharon.

*Resurrection ship. Very cool. I hope we get to see a transfer of consciousness take place; I've been waiting for that.

*The ending. Whoa. To see them cutting back and forth between Cain and Adama as they planned each other's demise. I think Cain is going to die but don't think it's Starbuck who's going to kill her.

Is it Friday yet? :)

Vapor
January 7th, 2006, 10:54 AM
Battlestar Galactica- "Resurrection Ship, Part 1"

Wow.... This is why Galactica is my current favorite show. Practically everything about it is just awesome to me.

Michelle Forbes (who, by the way, was also Ensign Ro in "Star Trek: The Next Generation" and Lynn in "24") turns out another fantastic performance as the powerhouse Admiral Cain. Her intensity is insane.

Speaking of intensity, I loved the score- especially in the opening scene (which is the same as the ending of the previous ep) with the violins (or something that sounds like it to my non-musical ears) strumming away as the two Battlestars prepare to go at each other.

I was really wondering how that whole situation would play itself out. Thankfully, logic prevailed. Pegasus is way more powerful than Galactica, so having them fight would be almost ridiculous, because we know who would win in the end...... Galactica :cool: . I figured it would have something to do with a third party interfering- maybe the Cylons attack or Starbuck coming back in the Blackbird. Great stuff.

So, now Starbuck is a captain (I assume this is temporary), and Cain suggests going back to the Colonies and beating back the Cylons, which works perfectly with what Starbuck had said earlier about wanting to come back with a rescue party or something. Great! They didn't just totally drop the idea.

My crush on Helo continues to consume me as he and Tyrol sit in the Pegasus brig awaiting their fates. Nice little scene possibly wrapping up Tyrol's "involvement" with Sharon. I guess they had to do a scene like this at some point. It's kind of a drag, really, since it feels like it's more for the writers' benefit (to make it easier to write scenes with those characters, without having Tyrol all misty-eyed about "what might have been" every five minutes), but I can see why it's important. And we get to see more of the conviction Helo has in his love for Sharon.

I love Roslin. The way she plays her scenes when she knows she has to be tough is so great. You just don't expect her to say/do many of the things she does, but I still somehow always totally believe it. Her announcement to Adama that they need to get rid of Cain is something that people might have expected to happen the opposite way, but instead of the military guy calling for guns blazing, it's the pacifistic politician. Yay for irony. And yay for emotional distress, as Roslin gets sicker and sicker.

Which raises an interesting question. Roslin's obviously dying. Is she a Cylon? If she was, she could die, and then come back. But then, since they're getting rid of the Resurrection Ship, that would be a problem, wouldn't it? I had this idea that, through some wierd "miracle" something would happen to Roslin and the cancer would be gone somehow. It's cheap sci-fi/fantasy, I know, but it's something they could go with. BSG is a show where they're constantly doing what's unexpected, so maybe doing what's expected would be unexpected itself for this show. :)

Another big question is what's gonna happen to Number Six's physical double, Gina. Will she join the show the way Caprica-Sharon did, or.... not? It could go either way, really. BSG is so good that it feels like they could make any possible story-route (within reason) work beautifully.

The final scene rocked, with Adama telling Kara his plan of assasination of Cain, and Cain doing the same to her Ex.O. Great. I love it when multi-parters go like this. Ya don't always have to end part one with a phaser pointed at somebody's head in order to create dramatic tension across a week. The quiet dialogue scene, with the actors working full-steam, is enough to make me want to see Part 2.

I give "Resurrection Ship, Part 1" an A+. Frackin awesome.

LoneStar1836
January 7th, 2006, 11:04 AM
*Starbuck. I thought one of the more interesting scenes in the show was the conversation between Cain and Starbuck. Cain seemed to be getting to Starbuck there by dangling the carrot of "Caprica" in front of her.She may have been baiting Starbuck with that promise to go back to Caprica, but I also think Cain is somewhat sincere in what she said about wanting to go back. Course I’m sure everyone in both fleets expresses that sentiment of wanting to go back and kick some Cylon ***, but Cain is crazy enough to eventually go back and try it single-handedly knowing it would be one last suicidal hoorah.

ETA:

Another big question is what's gonna happen to Number Six's physical double, Gina. Will she join the show the way Caprica-Sharon did, or.... not? It could go either way, really. BSG is so good that it feels like they could make any possible story-route (within reason) work beautifully.I don’t see Gina lasting past the next episode. For her to give up the secrets of the Resurrection ship, she really wants to end her existence. If not by her own hand then by someone else’s. Though I’m not quite sure Baltar will have the grit to do it.

If they do successfully take out the Resurrection ship, it will have some interesting consequences for the Cylons within the fleet. Would they then be willing to continue to “sacrifice” themselves for the cause knowing that when they die, they are truly dead. The humans have played to that fear in the past with Leoben (even though he probably knew about the ship even though we as viewers didn’t at the time), but the playing field would change with the ship’s destruction.

Vapor
January 7th, 2006, 11:41 AM
I'm thinking that, at some point in Part 2, Baltar somehow convinces her not to give up her life so easily. But, like I said, it could go either way, and it could be awesome either way.

If Gina really is the one that takes out Cain, then she might just turn the gun on herself right after it's done. Somehow, I'm thinking Starbuck might be really conflicted about doing it, but we won't actually ever get to find out whether or not she was REALLY going to do it. Like she walks into Cain's quarters or something, but Gina is already there with a gun. So she doesn't have to "go that far."

Osiris-RA
January 7th, 2006, 11:44 AM
A-Ma-Zing. BSg blew me away last night. I hate humans - some of them - with a vengance! May the cylon race tear them apart!!!

Oh, sorry, getting ahead of myself, anyway, who's the biotch to end all biotch's who in command of that vessal?? I missed some important eps there, but she is sooo begging for a bullet in the head. And Starbuck better not falter, 'neither. She better blast that biotch away like day old tofu! The next ep is gonna be WILD, I bet. BSG's definitely my new favorite Sci Fi show - next to Lost.

megame
January 7th, 2006, 11:45 AM
There was a couple of things that didn't sit right with me about this episode. To me it would have been better if Cain was portrayed as someone just super determined and willing to go to any lengths to fulfill her goals. The psychopath leader just doesn't seem believable to me.
The other thing is that I'm guessing that next episode will someone will be made of the X.O's and Starbuck hesitation in carryign out their orders. They kinda showed this with the lets go back to Caprica sceneand the X.O's bar room chat, but I think they could have made more of it. Not one of my favourite episodes to be honest.

The rest was good though, thought they did a very good job weapons hold battle. Roslin was great also.

Bossman
January 7th, 2006, 11:49 AM
Well, this is certainly Sci-fi at its best, no doubt about it.

There's one thing I found a little odd though. When Kara is talking with Cain on the Pegasus, she addresses Cain as "Sir"... shouldn't it have been "Ma'am"?

Just nit-picking here, can't wait for next Friday :D

Vapor
January 7th, 2006, 11:50 AM
The woman witnessed mass genocide, and all her buddies on other ships (some of them all-powerful Battlestars, like hers) were blown away right next to her.

Clearly the woman is severely fracked in the head. I found it believeable enough, since we've seen what the attack has done to so many others. It's fine with me.

Vapor
January 7th, 2006, 11:50 AM
Well, this is certainly Sci-fi at its best, no doubt about it.

There's one thing I found a little odd though. When Kara is talking with Cain on the Pegasus, she addresses Cain as "Sir"... shouldn't it have been "Ma'am"?

Just nit-picking here, can't wait for next Friday :D

That's common in military situations. Everyone is called "sir" regardless of gender.

Skydiver
January 7th, 2006, 11:52 AM
*Starbuck. I thought one of the more interesting scenes in the show was the conversation between Cain and Starbuck. Cain seemed to be getting to Starbuck there by dangling the carrot of "Caprica" in front of her.

Is it Friday yet? :)

oh definitely, it's a ploy. a way to turn kara and egg her on. and a promise that i don't think cain will ever deliver on. there's no way in hades they can retake and hold 12 colonies, now when they're surrounded by cylons on all sides

and if cain was willing to murder civilians in cold blood and leave them behind to die, she doesn't give a fig about the stranded rebels on caprica or any other planet

Battousai the Manslayer
January 7th, 2006, 12:43 PM
I'm now fully convinced. This is the best-it hit me like a brick that this show literally is doing everything I could possibly want when the Madam President has her best line of the season..."you know we have to kill her"

ToasterOnFire
January 7th, 2006, 12:47 PM
Here's a thought:

The trailing cyclon ship is carrying backups of "human models". We saw pictures of the Sharon model courtesy of the Blackbird, but wouldn't one assume that there would be other models there as well? The ship provides a fantastic opportunity to try and identify other, unknown cyclon models that may be currently prowling the fleet while undercover. It would probably be risky as hell, but Starbuck could always take the Blackbird out for more recon photos or, even riskier, use a stealth boarding party.

It'll be interesting to see if that idea is brought up in the next ep. I have a feeling that the ship is going to bite the dust before anyone could take that chance though.

busuan
January 7th, 2006, 01:21 PM
A subtle detail:

When Six said 'I just want to die,' do you really think she meant the same way as a human?
Now, since we saw the 'Ship', we know the legend was true, at least partially: they don't die, they just download to another body.
Therefore, is Caine's decision torturing her while keeping her alive really that much horrifying?
Do you want to release an enemy who knows too much?

Until I know the exact process of Cylon 'death adn resurrection', I have to give her the benifit of doubt.

LoneStar1836
January 7th, 2006, 01:29 PM
Nice theory there ToasterOnFire, and I would agree. The ship is bound to contain models for all the different Cylons within the fleet. But I’m sure that is a plot point they will overlook. Same way they avoided pressing Anders for descriptions of the Cylons that he and the others had encountered on Caprica. Anders made the mention that he had seen other Colonials in uniform who were Cylons and that’s why he couldn’t go by uniform alone when Kara asked him didn’t he see that she and Helo were in uniform.


I'm thinking that, at some point in Part 2, Baltar somehow convinces her not to give up her life so easily. But, like I said, it could go either way, and it could be awesome either way.

If Gina really is the one that takes out Cain, then she might just turn the gun on herself right after it's done. Somehow, I'm thinking Starbuck might be really conflicted about doing it, but we won't actually ever get to find out whether or not she was REALLY going to do it. Like she walks into Cain's quarters or something, but Gina is already there with a gun. So she doesn't have to "go that far."I don’t think we will either.

That look she gave Adama when he made his request was like “WTF. Are you serious?” I think Kara could possibly do it if she gets the chance, but I don’t see it going down like that. Kara won’t get the chance to see if she can pull the trigger or not. Though I seriously think she’d kill for the man when push came to shove. Especially if in their discussion, Adama mentioned Roslin’s concerns that Cain would eventually come gunning for him.

For Adama to ask someone to kill for him in such a personal way. Whoa. But I don’t see that as “exceedingly out of character” like Digi mentioned up the page, but at least the decision to do it didn’t come lightly. I think the revelation of what happened to the civilian fleet under Cain pushed him to it. I don’t think he made the decision because of fear for his own life but rather for that of his “family” and the civilian fleet. To see all that they have sacrificed for over the past 6 months wiped away by one person is not acceptable. I’m sure if he could do it himself, he would. (Though technically he probably could, but it wouldn’t make for great drama. Just kill her on Colonial One once the battle is over and they meet back up to discuss the Helo and Chief.)

rexpop
January 7th, 2006, 01:52 PM
This was great, great television. This is how it should be done, textbook.

Assuming that part 2 doesn't frack things up in someway then this arc might stand as the best three hours of science fiction TV in a long time. They should burn it onto DVD and send copies to every lame ass SciFi screenwriter showing them how it should be done.

So many great moments.

EJO can express so much without saying a word. The scene with Roslin, Cain and Adama was an excellent triple header, especially the line about who would win in a fight between Galactica and Pegasus. Priceless.

Helo and Tyrol. In the few minutes per episode that these guys get, there has been more character development than leads in some shows get in an entire season.

Trica Helfer deserves some kind of recognition for her acting talents. The depths she brings to both the roles she plays is amazing.

The list can go on...

Sela
January 7th, 2006, 01:53 PM
Was anyone else reminded of a teacher reprimanding two bad students when Roslin was talking to Cain and Adama on Colonial One? Makes sense though, considering Roslin's past occupation. So funny to see two commanders of battlestars practically pouting in their chairs, not to mention Adama's quick retort when Roslin said that the Pegasus would win a starship fight. "Nuh UH! My battlestar would TOTALLY kick your battlestar's butt!" :D
I did see that and it cracked me up. :) They were both pouting and sulking and it was great. Must say I was drop-jawed to hear Roslyn tell Adama to take Cain out. Didn't know she had it in her. Was amazed to see Adama command Starbuck to do it! Wow! Can't wait for next week and honestly, I'm hoping Cain survives. I love the darkness she brings to the show. I love the character of Cain.

Skydiver
January 7th, 2006, 02:06 PM
A subtle detail:

When Six said 'I just want to die,' do you really think she meant the same way as a human?
Now, since we saw the 'Ship', we know the legend was true, at least partially: they don't die, they just download to another body.
Therefore, is Caine's decision torturing her while keeping her alive really that much horrifying?
Do you want to release an enemy who knows too much?

Until I know the exact process of Cylon 'death adn resurrection', I have to give her the benifit of doubt.
the bad thing about this is, pegasus six dies and what happens? her memories are uploaded to her successor and the other cylons (if i'm understanding things right. that's how caprica sharon has galactica sharon's memories....well what do you think the other cylons will do when they find out how one of thier own has been brutalized?

they are human in thier thoughts. IMHO, they're gonna be ticked off. ticked off in a MAJOR way. it'll be personal for them, or at least some of them.

nothing makes war more brutal than to have it be personal

spg_1983
January 7th, 2006, 02:09 PM
the bad thing about this is, pegasus six dies and what happens? her memories are uploaded to her successor and the other cylons (if i'm understanding things right. that's how caprica sharon has galactica sharon's memories....well what do you think the other cylons will do when they find out how one of thier own has been brutalized?

they are human in thier thoughts. IMHO, they're gonna be ticked off. ticked off in a MAJOR way. it'll be personal for them, or at least some of them.

nothing makes war more brutal than to have it be personal
but if they destroy the Resurection ship before Pegasus Six dies then the other cylons won't know.

houstonscan
January 7th, 2006, 02:27 PM
Well, this is certainly Sci-fi at its best, no doubt about it.

There's one thing I found a little odd though. When Kara is talking with Cain on the Pegasus, she addresses Cain as "Sir"... shouldn't it have been "Ma'am"?

Just nit-picking here, can't wait for next Friday :D

No. Rank outways Gender in most Sci-Fi Military units.

Gargen
January 7th, 2006, 03:07 PM
Amazing dialogue at the end "pull out your gun and shot Admiral Cain in the head" so blunt so muc emotion in that one scene. What he should have done is released the number 6 on Cain so they could both die

dosed150
January 7th, 2006, 03:48 PM
wow nice to see one of my favourite sci-fi shows still has it after the dissapointing stargate episodes recently i really dont think fisk will do it i think he may even go as far as telling adama why he was sent there i think adama would trust him enough to give him command of pegasus if it survives i really hate cain shes such a well written character i love this show more every week im excited about the next part i really dont think many of cains crew like her or even respect her what kind of soldier kills civilians

Arative
January 7th, 2006, 04:16 PM
the bad thing about this is, pegasus six dies and what happens? her memories are uploaded to her successor and the other cylons (if i'm understanding things right. that's how caprica sharon has galactica sharon's memories....well what do you think the other cylons will do when they find out how one of thier own has been brutalized?

they are human in thier thoughts. IMHO, they're gonna be ticked off. ticked off in a MAJOR way. it'll be personal for them, or at least some of them.

nothing makes war more brutal than to have it be personal

From what I took away from the scene when she is asking to die is that she doesn't want to be downloaded into a new body because she has been so traumatized by what has happened to her that she'd rather cease to exist than to just be downloaded into a new body and that's why she told Baltar what that ship was. But you are right, if her memories were to be transfered, the cylons would be majorly pissed.

FoolishPleasure
January 7th, 2006, 05:04 PM
This is absolutely the best show on television today. Terrific writing AND acting by everyone.

I do wonder one thing though. . .how the heck are they gonna top psycho Cain after she is gone? That character is just incredible!

Blue Banrigh
January 7th, 2006, 05:34 PM
To me it would have been better if Cain was portrayed as someone just super determined and willing to go to any lengths to fulfill her goals. The psychopath leader just doesn't seem believable to me.
But she is super-determined and did go to extreme lengths, that's what makes her a psychopath.

lionel_pendergast_rocks
January 7th, 2006, 06:06 PM
OMFG this was such a great episode!!!! I really think it was better than the part 2's of SG-1 and Atlantis.

Disco_Dark_jeedai
January 7th, 2006, 07:48 PM
Excellent episode!!! Can't wait til Friday! Although, I think Apollo got screwed over. Wasn't it HIS plan to have Starbuck go and get the photos? Shouldn't he be getting the accolades? I think Caine screwed him because of Adama. If he hadn't sent Starbuck, they wouldn't have the intel that they have. All hail Apollo!!!!

Carbito
January 7th, 2006, 08:04 PM
This is the best-it hit me like a brick that this show literally is doing everything I could possibly want when the Madam President has her best line of the season..."you know we have to kill her"

Yeah, that line was great. I almost fell off my chair when she just said that.
I was also suprised to see just how quickly Roslin's health is getting worse, I hope they don't kill her character off but I can't think of any credible way that they could keep her alive.

LoneStar1836
January 7th, 2006, 08:27 PM
If he hadn't sent Starbuck, they wouldn't have the intel that they have. Exactly. :P If it hadn’t been for Starbuck, no one else would have been insane enough to fly right into the heart of the ship and take all those pretty pictures. ;) Cain was ready to toss both of them in the brig for insubordination, but backed off because Starbuck got her something she wanted. Course sure Cain’s got it out for Lee because he in an Adama…. Had to kind of feel sorry for Pegasus’s CAG getting a demotion just because he didn’t keep a close enough eye on Apollo.


I do have one nitpick though…. How did the blackbird show up on dradis when Kara jumped back to the fleet? I thought it was immune to that.

cyke
January 7th, 2006, 08:28 PM
I just finished my marathon of sorts to catch up to Battle Star Galactica and wow, what a ride. Thanks to the video ipod i recieved this christmas i dl'ed the free video from itunes and it got me curious so i watched the mini-series, followed by season 1 n 2.0 and now Ressurection Part I.

I enjoyed the miniseries and the first episode 33, immensly. I was sort of let down afterwards that the episodes weren't as good. It was ashamed i watched the sci-fi insiders look at BSG because i knew some stuff that would happen but I look at season 1 as the groundwork for setting up the even better season 2. The first 2 episodes was completely amazing then it slowed down for an episode or two and then sped back up again. I'm so upset now that I have to wait week to week to watch BSG. I'm so used to watching in one big shot.

Sometimes I wonder if the writers have dug themselves into a whole by complicating things such as the Galactica and Pegasus going at each other but hey they managed to get through that with no gun fire and set up a lot of action and intrigue. Especially with this Ressurection ship, which is sort of the wharehouse for cylons and the whole thing with Admiral Kain. Good stuff indeed.

Thermonuclearboy
January 7th, 2006, 09:03 PM
I think Rosslyn's pressing Adama to eliminate Cain was spurred on by her illness. Adama and Rosslyn have pretty much shared command of the fleet until now. When Rosslyn dies, Cain will be the de facto leader of the fleet (because, let's be honest, Baltar's got all the leadership skills of a piece of balsa wood) and Rosslyn understands that Cain should not be in that position. She wants Adama to be her successor, and the only way to do that is eliminate the competition.

As a technical question, why doesn't Rosslyn just promote Adama and relieve Cain of command? Isn't the President the Commander in Chief? Doesn't she have some executive powers she can exercise on this matter? Granted, Cain probably wouldn't comply, but shouldn't she be able to do so?

And doesn't Rosslyn HAVE to die? It's part of the prophecy they're apparently following that the leader dies before she leads them to Earth, isn't it? As much as I like the character, I don't see any way for her to live.

spg_1983
January 7th, 2006, 09:16 PM
I think Rosslyn's pressing Adama to eliminate Cain was spurred on by her illness. Adama and Rosslyn have pretty much shared command of the fleet until now. When Rosslyn dies, Cain will be the de facto leader of the fleet (because, let's be honest, Baltar's got all the leadership skills of a piece of balsa wood) and Rosslyn understands that Cain should not be in that position. She wants Adama to be her successor, and the only way to do that is eliminate the competition.

As a technical question, why doesn't Rosslyn just promote Adama and relieve Cain of command? Isn't the President the Commander in Chief? Doesn't she have some executive powers she can exercise on this matter? Granted, Cain probably wouldn't comply, but shouldn't she be able to do so?

And doesn't Rosslyn HAVE to die? It's part of the prophecy they're apparently following that the leader dies before she leads them to Earth, isn't it? As much as I like the character, I don't see any way for her to live.The prophecy is that a female leader will arise that will suffer a wasting illness. She will lead them to earth but she herself will never set foot on earth. It never specifically says she dies or give any time frame. They could figure out a cure or something that she doesnt die of the cancer, but the search for earth could take years or decades. She could die of old age before they reach earth or there could be a dozen different reasons why she woulndnt set foot on earth but still be alive. Thats the great thing about prophecies that are really broad and general like that, they can be interpreted to fit most any way you want.

MASON
January 7th, 2006, 09:52 PM
If Gina really is the one that takes out Cain, then she might just turn the gun on herself right after it's done. Somehow, I'm thinking Starbuck might be really conflicted about doing it, but we won't actually ever get to find out whether or not she was REALLY going to do it. Like she walks into Cain's quarters or something, but Gina is already there with a gun. So she doesn't have to "go that far."
Speculative Tricia Helfer hinted in "The Lowdown" that she believed she killed a Cylon at some point in season 2. So, looking at things so far, it could be Cain (unlikely, why would the Cylons sick a warmongerer on their precious res. ship?) or herself.

Blue Banrigh
January 7th, 2006, 10:01 PM
As a technical question, why doesn't Rosslyn just promote Adama and relieve Cain of command? Isn't the President the Commander in Chief? Doesn't she have some executive powers she can exercise on this matter? Granted, Cain probably wouldn't comply, but shouldn't she be able to do so?
That certainly won't sit well with Cain. I can't see her blithely stepping down from command. If anything else, it'll probably piss her off even more and lead to more bloodshed.

I'm also glad we got a time frame as to how long it's been since the attack on the colonies. Six months, season one ended around a month and a half right?

Lady Snow
January 7th, 2006, 10:07 PM
As to promoting Adama over Cain: I think I remember hearing RDM say something about it in the podcast from last night. It was mostly to the effect of "Cain wouldn't go and her crew wouldn't really let her. Imagine if Roslin removed Adama from command - would the Galactica crew let Adama go without a fight?" I do agree that Cain wouldn't step down; she'd cannibalize Galactica and run from there.


I'm considering getting iTunes just so I can download the show. I love it!

Last night's favourite scene: When Lee visited Chief and Helo. The familial bond they seemed to share - even though they've not shared much screen time throughout the series, and when they did it was vaguely strained = really epitomized the differences between Galactica and Pegasus.

rexpop
January 7th, 2006, 10:11 PM
I do have one nitpick though…. How did the blackbird show up on dradis when Kara jumped back to the fleet? I thought it was immune to that.

I suspect that like most real life stealth planes and ships there are certain things that the ship can do that can cause the ship to show up on radar.

For example if on a stealth plane you open the landing gear doors or the weapons bay it changes the shape of the plane enough that the radar profile changes so that it can start showing up on radar.

I would assume that the same principle would apply to the blackbird and dradis.

MASON
January 7th, 2006, 10:14 PM
That certainly won't sit well with Cain. I can't see her blithely stepping down from command. If anything else, it'll probably piss her off even more and lead to more bloodshed.
Indeed, Cain has made it clear that she wouldn't stand for that. When she said, "Let's just cut through it," to Roslin and Adama, it really sounded like "it" was Roslin's presidential power. Roslin went further on this line when she pointed out that neither military ship has to listen to her if they so choose, and could pummel each other to the result of crippled defenses and massive loss of life. The gun is the final authority in Cain's world, and Roslin's shown she's not afraid to fight fire with fire by ordering Cain's assassination.

Shipperahoy
January 7th, 2006, 10:48 PM
And doesn't Rosslyn HAVE to die? It's part of the prophecy they're apparently following that the leader dies before she leads them to Earth, isn't it? As much as I like the character, I don't see any way for her to live.

Unless they pull a Buffy. For those unfamiliar with the Buffyverse (and if you are than shame on you!;) ) the prophecy was that she would die. And she did...for like 2 minutes and then she was revived. It could be a loophole type thingy like that.

boodoosy
January 8th, 2006, 01:12 AM
>Michelle Forbes (who, by the way, was also Ensign Ro...

Thanks for that bit of information. I felt I had seen Cain before, but couldn't put it all together until until you mentioned that.

Lady Snow
January 8th, 2006, 02:03 AM
When the Vipers were shown launching from Galactica, I'm sure I saw Lee's Mk. VII among them (a quick glance at the episode confirms it; one Mk. VII emerges from among the Mk. IIs). My question then becomes, who's piloting it? How often does this happen? Is the new CAG, presumably Cat, incapable of flying the Mk. VII? Or am I just reading far too much into this?

andrewag
January 8th, 2006, 02:16 AM
This ep was just as enjoyable as most of the other BSG episodes. This show just does it. No zillions of complications of other aliens, and a more human focus. It's perfect.

I was hanging out for this episode from the previous, and it seems the same is happening again. But thankfully the gap isn't so big!

I thought starbuck was getting won over at some stages like when cain said to go back to caprica. It was good to see she was in over her head and asking for capt adama's help.

Looking forward to next week. Thank god for the internet. BSG S2 is not being shown here in Australia :( Not to mention it started off at 8.30 and moved to 9.30 then to 10.30.

Blue Banrigh
January 8th, 2006, 02:17 AM
Kat was piloting a Mark II, but there are other Mark VII other than Apollo's. I think his might be parked in the Pegasus, he probably took it when he got transferred.

Battousai the Manslayer
January 8th, 2006, 02:36 AM
Unless they pull a Buffy. For those unfamiliar with the Buffyverse (and if you are than shame on you!;) ) the prophecy was that she would die. And she did...for like 2 minutes and then she was revived. It could be a loophole type thingy like that.Thanks for ruining Buffy for me. I'm on the beginning of season 2.

Hatcheter
January 8th, 2006, 04:10 AM
Thanks for ruining Buffy for me. I'm on the beginning of season 2.

I think this (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/12/05) is relevant. ;)

Hatcheter
January 8th, 2006, 04:14 AM
I suspect that like most real life stealth planes and ships there are certain things that the ship can do that can cause the ship to show up on radar.

For example if on a stealth plane you open the landing gear doors or the weapons bay it changes the shape of the plane enough that the radar profile changes so that it can start showing up on radar.

I would assume that the same principle would apply to the blackbird and dradis.

Note that the Blackbird was only noticed after Starbuck transmitted a reply to Apollo. I'm thinking that that broadcast was enough to trip the sensors on both battlestars.

Blue Banrigh
January 8th, 2006, 06:09 AM
Thanks for ruining Buffy for me. I'm on the beginning of season 2.
Shouldn't matter then, the prophecy was fulfilled at the end of Season One. :D

Anyone else thing that the design of the Ressurection ship was quite odd? It's probably the most precious ship in the Cylon Fleet and the majority of it looks like it's made out of glass.

entil2001
January 8th, 2006, 07:48 AM
“Pegasus” left off with hints of a possible civil war between Cain and Adama, and as the title of the episode indicates, resolving that situation required more than a single episode. I consider that to be another indication of the series’ depth. As Ron Moore continually notes in his podcast commentaries, the episodes almost always run long, because any given situation presents the writes with a ton of character-driven moments worthy of attention.

This episode is a strong “middle chapter”, especially since it centers on character conflict. A civilian leader dying while the fate of the fleet lies in the power struggle between two military commanders? Sounds practically Shakespearian when you come right down to it. And as the episode progresses, the end of the final act is almost a foregone conclusion. That doesn’t make it any less powerful in execution.

There are a ton of moments in this episode that come as a shock. Perhaps the most obvious is Roslin’s advocation of assassination. She’s speaking from a very pragmatic point of view, but that doesn’t make it any less surprising. Roslin is typically so concerned with the preservation of life that it seems out of character for her to advocate killing. At the same time, it makes perfect sense: she sees the issue as a question of fleet survival. If Cain takes control, Roslin suspects what is later revealed to be true: Cain would sacrifice civilian survival for the sake of the “war effort”.

As with “Pegasus”, it’s possible to understand and even agree with Cain’s goals. One might even agree with some of her methods. She correctly identified Adama’s weaknesses as a military commander, many of which were intentional (recall that Adama was originally depicted as a man looking forward to retirement, willing to overlook strict military protocol in many instances). Yet that doesn’t make her treatment of prisoners remotely justifiable, nor does her attitude regarding civilians win many points.

If the episode was simply focused on the conflict between Cain and Adama, it would have been more than sufficient. But there was also the evolution of the relationship between Adama and Roslin. I don’t need them to become lovers; that would be going a bit too far. But I do accept that their struggle since the Cylon attack has given them reason to respect and admire each other, and that shows in several scenes. The bedside scene, however, is one of the best moments of the episode.

I also like the fact that Cain and Adama each choose assassins who are conflicted about following orders. Is Cain’s XO willing to kill Galactica’s command staff, or is he tempted by the thought of serving a more reasonable commander? Will Starbuck, strongly motivated to return to Caprica, still kill the admiral who promises to do just that? The conclusion of the story is fairly obvious, but how the events will play out is far less certain.

I’m still only scratching the surface, which is an indication of how dense the story truly was. The scene with Sharon and Adama, the scenes between Tyrol and Helo, not to mention the growing relationship between Baltar and Gina…all of those scenes advanced plot and character threads that will surely have future implications. This is the kind of episode that begs pages and pages of commentary and consideration. I can’t wait to see how it all plays out!

GALACTIC MYTH
January 8th, 2006, 08:59 AM
Ok this episode was awsome nevertheless. This is my first time posting on the forum and am 17 years old, so please tell me what you think. Also If you stated something like this and I didn't quote you I not trying to offend you in anyway, please forgive me if I do.

Possible spoilers from season 2 episodes 5-11.

Alright heres a theory: I don't think Starbuck is going to kill Cain she respects her to much and is willing to go back to Caprica. But if Cain did leave all those civilian ships to die and killed families (I beleive she did) to get what she wanted.

Because of this I also think that Cain is a cylon because she new imediatly how to get Kara on her side after seeing her stealth photos, this is do to pass episode that the cylons (Simon Leoban, Sharon) were and are the only things that can read her emotions no one else. Also a large portion of what happened to Kara when she was captured by the cylons that is a large portion but mostly Kara wants to return to kill the cylons because of the FARMS and of her freinds that are trapped down there.

The captive number six wants to die and is giving away all the information about the reserrection ship from the photos. Now I believe that the ship is only filled with "six's" I thought I saw her model only not Sheron model where I read earlier. (forgive for the non quote can't remember where I read it)
Now to me that means that there are a total of 12 reserrection ships.

And if anyone is going to kill Admral Cain, its going to be "number six" I don't no why I believe that but my gut is telling me, but it would be intersetting if six did because of what I stated above with Cain being a cylon, we would have cylon vs. cylon and that would sweet, don't know where that would lead in the future but it leave a lot of windows open.

possible spoilers end.

My thought were all over the place so if you understood thank you. Look forward to your possitive or negative response. Also happy to be here.

Kilharae
January 8th, 2006, 09:09 AM
This whole person_X could be a cylon thing is starting to piss me off. Seriously I've heard everyone on the show called a cylon by you people. *mod snip*

rexpop
January 8th, 2006, 09:09 AM
Anyone else thing that the design of the Ressurection ship was quite odd? It's probably the most precious ship in the Cylon Fleet and the majority of it looks like it's made out of glass.

Given that its supposed to be part of their religion it looked more like a church or cathedral rather than a battleship, and so form would win out over function. All of which worked for me.

GALACTIC MYTH
January 8th, 2006, 09:28 AM
Given that its supposed to be part of their religion it looked more like a church or cathedral rather than a battleship, and so form would win out over function. All of which worked for me.

I also thought resebled a church or cathedral, but thought it was a very cool design, esspecialy how large it is.

MASON
January 8th, 2006, 09:31 AM
Given that its supposed to be part of their religion it looked more like a church or cathedral rather than a battleship, and so form would win out over function. All of which worked for me.
I think a lot of its form could be seen as function, the array of similar structures looks like it's intended to maximize surface area, which would make good sense if it's a consciousness receiving and transmitting antenna.

The large transparent windows, though, are questionable, I think they are more of a visual device in the show to allow Starbuck to discover the dormant bodies without slowing the pace of the show. I would have been equally impressed, though, if the images she'd taken included infrared scans, picking up the heat signatures of the cylon bodies.

TameFarrar
January 8th, 2006, 10:18 AM
Hi All Just a friendly reminder that EVERYONE is entitled to their own opinion about how or why the plots or characters are doing OR going in any certain direction.

If you don't agree with what one person feels is a valid point the you are free to debate that as long as it is respectful. And as always sometimes it is best to just agree to disagree if you can't find a common ground. In the end though every person is allowed to think what they want AND voice a thought or opinion about the episode as long as it stays within the Forum guidelines :)

TameFarrar
GateWorld Moderator

USA1290
January 8th, 2006, 10:55 AM
Seven more days Hatch, seven long days.

IMO, I don't think Fisk will carry out the order. I don't think Kara will either.

Hello:
I do so agree with you!!! I'd say THIS week will be even longer than last week!!
We could click our heels & say "There's No Place Like Home" but then maybe we'd wind up in 1930's Kansas & since there was'nt TV then, I think I'll stay here. I agree with you on XO Fisk. Kara, I feel that prehaps she is not that person. Remember when Zarek had hostages & Starbuck had a bead on Zarek, [who also had her CAG hostage] she FROZE & did'nt take the shot. Killing Cylons in air combat is one thing, but I think she's squeamish about killing people. There is also the oppurtuinty-I think Cain will keep her on a short leash. She knows Starbuck is in Adama's inner circle.

COME ON FRIDAY

SGalisa
January 8th, 2006, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by ToasterOnFire:
Was anyone else reminded of a teacher reprimanding two bad students when Roslin was talking to Cain and Adama on Colonial One? Makes sense though, considering Roslin's past occupation. So funny to see two commanders of battlestars practically pouting in their chairs,...
:D hadn't thought of it *that* way... great comment!

glad to see Laura Roslin not holding back (and humoring herself about her health situation, too: coming back as a certain blonde). She has nothing to lose and everything to gain -if she survives her cancer ordeal.

One of the nice touches (of *realism* too) was when Adama visited Roslin during one of her sicky moments (tucked in under a blanket, possibly running a fever and feeling lousy). But her advice to him was amazing (to keep especially him alive!), considering he had her locked up before for treason.

Originally posted by Skydiver:
...she defends the civilians of the fleet like a lioness would her cubs. and cain is a threat to those civilians.murderous {Admiral} Cain... an appropriate name, sounds very biblical even if the gender is reversed from the original Cain and Able Bible story.


Originally posted by keshou:
*Baltar/Gina interaction was also compelling... Have to give Tricia Helfer credit. I thought she was just a tall blond model/turned actress with a great body. And she certainly has the great body -- quite evident last night - but she's also showing some real range playing Gina.Never underestimate the (emotional strength and) power of a woman even if she has a well endowed (voluptuous) body. I still disagree with the exploitation (nekked on the bed) of female actresses, but that's TPTB and her choice. Seeing her bare back full of deep cut marks made a more intense scene, even if it was more disturbing to see (because of what it implied).

Lee seems to be tolerating his humility (from Cain demoting him), even if it is a natural part of his personality... It appears that he helped Starbuck get past her brain-burn moment to plot the upcoming attack against the cylons. Lee might never get the credit, unless he and Kara are safely returned to the Galactica. Considering Cain's current reputation for sticking to the rules, she might never accept his role in the whole scenario, unless it saves Cain's own U-know-what, which seems unlikely... especially if (as speculation believes) Gina takes Cain out.

Potential Score for Gina! It'd be fitting for Gina to shoot Cain, considering their current (hateful) *relationship*. ;) Yes, the green cuff or whatever it was (in the preview commercials), sort of clues in on the "who-done-it" routine...

Skydiver
January 8th, 2006, 11:10 AM
Given that its supposed to be part of their religion it looked more like a church or cathedral rather than a battleship, and so form would win out over function. All of which worked for me.
it looks a lot like the air force academy chapel in colorado springs colorado

USA1290
January 8th, 2006, 11:11 AM
Here's a thought:... use a stealth boarding party.

It'll be interesting to see if that idea is brought up in the next ep. I have a feeling that the ship is going to bite the dust before anyone could take that chance though.

Hello: I was wondering the same myself. I was thinking if they could get onboard & hack into the Cylon mainframe Computer or thru to the Basestar Computers & get information that way. Would'nt that be more useful? Prehaps they could plant thier own virus? Is that possible>I'm not tech-minded & don't know how long it takes to make a virus.

I also wonder if theres a Cylon centurion crew guarding the ship or a small crew & the process is mainly automated? Would a Colonial boarding party suceed?

When Boomer & Kat[?] boarded the Basestar, I don't remember any alarms sounding. A Basestar is different than this ship!! Might be heavily guarded.

Any thoughts?
Stephen

GALACTIC MYTH
January 8th, 2006, 12:14 PM
Hello: I was wondering the same myself. I was thinking if they could get onboard & hack into the Cylon mainframe Computer or thru to the Basestar Computers & get information that way. Would'nt that be more useful? Prehaps they could plant thier own virus? Is that possible>I'm not tech-minded & don't know how long it takes to make a virus.

I also wonder if theres a Cylon centurion crew guarding the ship or a small crew & the process is mainly automated? Would a Colonial boarding party suceed?

When Boomer & Kat[?] boarded the Basestar, I don't remember any alarms sounding. A Basestar is different than this ship!! Might be heavily guarded.

Any thoughts?
Stephen

This is just how I think, If the cylons had 2 basestars guarding the resurrection ship and galactica was able to destroy the basestars or enter the resurrection ship without being detected, the cylons are fracked at least for the time being, because I think the cylons are over confiddent.

The reason why Boomer and I beleive Racetrack were able to enter the cylon basestar was because of the discovery and modification Lt. Gaeta made on the cylon device, known as the Cylon Transponder. I believe it was that device, because it also worked for Starbuck when she jumped to capprica in the cylon raider and they picked up the transponder signal as a freindly.

Hope that helps:
Myth

cyke
January 8th, 2006, 01:29 PM
It will be interesting how they will resolve admiral cain and pegasus. if the missions goes well and they destroy the ressurection ship, will they now go on the offensive? what happened to finding earth?

do they know exactly where the cylon homeworld is ?

obviously i think admiral cain will be taken out, either killed or demoted, i'm pretty sure adama will be back in full command. there's also the question rosalin and what'll happen to her. she has less than a week left.

darman
January 8th, 2006, 02:15 PM
Thanks for ruining Buffy for me. I'm on the beginning of season 2.

You shouldn't be worried even if you were spoiled. If you're just at beginning of Season 2, I guarantee you that there are going to be bigger developments (*snicker* *snicker*) to surprised about. Please, take my word for it.

Galactica is awesome. Stargate people need to bring their game, come on.
Instead of explaining to the enemy how their weapon works to them, they could just add more plot you know, like Galactica does.

GALACTIC MYTH
January 8th, 2006, 02:50 PM
Just another thought, since Roslin is the presedent couldn't she just promote Adam and demote Cain?

USA1290
January 8th, 2006, 04:03 PM
"...do they know exactly where the cylon homeworld is?

Greetings I think they do, did'nt it say in the mini, that they built the Armistice station 1/2 way between the Colonies & the Cylon homeworld?

This is going to be some season!!
COME ON FRIDAY!
Stephen

USA1290
January 8th, 2006, 04:12 PM
The reason why Boomer and I beleive Racetrack were able to enter the cylon basestar was because of the discovery and modification Lt. Gaeta made on the cylon device, known as the Cylon Transponder. I believe it was that device, because it also worked for Starbuck when she jumped to capprica in the cylon raider and they picked up the transponder signal as a freindly.

Hope that helps:
Myth

Greetings, thanks for responding! I do remember the transponder. I was wondering is that all those Boomer BioCylons showed up. I did'nt understand if they were crew responding to a alarm or just passengers who happened by.
They did'nt appear to be in a rush & I'd think the Cylon Centurions would respond to a boarding. I thought that internal sensors would have detected the nuke. They did'nt seem to be overly concerned.

spg_1983
January 8th, 2006, 04:56 PM
Greetings I think they do, did'nt it say in the mini, that they built the Armistice station 1/2 way between the Colonies & the Cylon homeworld?

This is going to be some season!!
COME ON FRIDAY!
StephenI believe it said in the mini that they didnt know where the cylons went to after the war. I dont recall them talking about the placement of Armistice station.

GALACTIC MYTH
January 8th, 2006, 05:23 PM
Greetings, thanks for responding! I do remember the transponder. I was wondering is that all those Boomer BioCylons showed up. I did'nt understand if they were crew responding to a alarm or just passengers who happened by.
They did'nt appear to be in a rush & I'd think the Cylon Centurions would respond to a boarding. I thought that internal sensors would have detected the nuke. They did'nt seem to be overly concerned.

good point on the nuke. Because in the later episodes the BSG crew said that the cylons can detect nukes, but in that note it might be possible the other cylons knew that it was time for Sharon to shoot Adam since there all programed for a particular mission.

GALACTIC MYTH
January 8th, 2006, 05:28 PM
Greetings I think they do, did'nt it say in the mini, that they built the Armistice station 1/2 way between the Colonies & the Cylon homeworld?

This is going to be some season!!
COME ON FRIDAY!
Stephen

I don't remember them stating where the cylons homeworld but the colonies gave a location for them to meat. (I could very well be wrong) Also I think if the colones knew where there homeworld was they would nuke it with everything they had and BSG would never happen.

Hatcheter
January 8th, 2006, 06:15 PM
I don't remember them stating where the cylons homeworld but the colonies gave a location for them to meat. (I could very well be wrong) Also I think if the colones knew where there homeworld was they would nuke it with everything they had and BSG would never happen.

The Cylons had disappeared into "unknown space", or some such thing. This is, I believe, the first mention of a home world.

GALACTIC MYTH
January 8th, 2006, 06:52 PM
The Cylons had disappeared into "unknown space", or some such thing. This is, I believe, the first mention of a home world.

thanks thats what I thought but couldn't find the words for some reason. although it was a simple Q/A.

Blue Banrigh
January 8th, 2006, 07:11 PM
Given that its supposed to be part of their religion it looked more like a church or cathedral rather than a battleship, and so form would win out over function. All of which worked for me.
Never saw it shaped like a church or cathedral, I always thought it looked like a spinal column. But with that in mind, yeah I can see the resemblance.

If Cain dies, who would assume command of the Pegasus, would it be Tigh or Fisk?

USA1290
January 8th, 2006, 08:19 PM
Never saw it shaped like a church or cathedral, I always thought it looked like a spinal column. But with that in mind, yeah I can see the resemblance.

If Cain dies, who would assume command of the Pegasus, would it be Tigh or Fisk?
I'm going to have to guess. I would think it would be Fisk as he is the current XO of that ship & Tigh is assigned to the Galaticia. I'm guessing the Colonial chain of command is structured like Earth's.
I also think Adama would want to keep Tigh with him, as they have a past. I know there are transfers & such but should Cain pass away, that would restore Adama to ranking officer & he would choose who goes where.

SGalisa
January 8th, 2006, 08:38 PM
first off, regarding Laura Roslin... I forgot to add the following...


Originally posted by SGalisa:
glad to see Laura Roslin not holding back... She has nothing to lose and everything to gain -if she survives her cancer ordeal.

One of the nice touches (of *realism* too) was when Adama visited Roslin during one of her sicky moments (tucked in under a blanket, possibly running a fever and feeling lousy). But her advice to him was amazing (to keep especially him alive!), considering he had her locked up before...
Originally posted by Skydiver:
...she defends the civilians of the fleet like a lioness would her cubs.excellent comparison...
Laura the Lioness :)
(oooo! *cat* fight! hissss! grrrrr!) :p


Originally posted by cyke:
what happened to finding earth?
...
there's also the question rosalin and what'll happen to her. she has less than a week left.perhaps the search for earth takes a back seat?
(for more eps to be shown first) ;)
...and...
I seem to recall during the beginning of the ep, previous recaps: the doctor telling Laura the she maybe has up to a few weeks left (to live)... a month at the most. Laura is making the most of these last moments. I'm just awed that she's just as protective of (Bill) Adama as she is for the rest of the fleet that's been following the Galactica since the mini-series first began.

Wyrminarrd
January 9th, 2006, 01:04 AM
Great episode, it really keept me one the edge of my seat the whole time.

I´m looking forward to seeing how the attack on the resurrection ship goes. But there is the big flaw in Adamas plans as it is possible (if you don´t know this is a show) that Starbuck might be killed in the battle. This would leave Adama without any way of killing Cain. He really should have picked someone who was going to be on Cains bridge no matter what for the job.

I also think that Fisk won´t pull the trigger. The big question is will he decide against it before picking his marine compliment or after? If the latter we could end up with a gun fight aboard Galactica.

Speakfire
January 9th, 2006, 07:13 AM
Fisk to me comes across as someone who obeys the orders he is given because he doesn't want to get shot in the head, like the previous XO for Pegasus did. I suspect he confided in Tigh as much as he did in hopes that the information would be passed on to Commander Adama, who might have the guts to actually do something about it. I really can't see him going through with the assassination, not once he is in the (relatively) protective atmosphere of the Galactica.

On the other hand, Starbuck would die for and kill for Adama (probably both Adamas, actually). If for nothing else than to atone for her 'sins' regarding Zak Adama. She'll do what she's ordered to do, when the command to shoot Cain is given, I bet.

donniepw
January 9th, 2006, 09:22 AM
IS it just me or did anyone else notice that the plan Adama laid out for the assasination of Admiral Cain bore striking similairty to the same attempt Sharon made on him at the end of season one. If you ask me it seems Adama is barrowing his tactics from the Cylons only making up were their plan failed by having her shot in the head to make sure she is dies. Very mafia like as well. I love this show.

ToasterOnFire
January 9th, 2006, 11:30 AM
i don't see Adama allowing marines on his bridge w/o some way of making sure they won't kill him. anyone notice how Cain told Fisk to "elinimate Adama's command" while Adama said stright up " take out your gun and shoot her in the head"?
Cian has major issues, she wants to hurt the Cylons no matter what the cost.
Yeah, I also took that to mean that Adama wanted just Cain killed (unless someone else got in the way) while Cain wanted EVERYONE in Adama's chain in command killed - which is likely everyone in that control room.

Those comments were yet another way to contrast the two commanders and their military styles - Adama believes in getting rid of only the source of the problem while Cain believes in getting rid of the source and everything related to it. I wouldn't be surprised if Starbuck and Apollo are next in line after Adama and the control room staff...

Can't wait to see how things end this Friday!

GALACTIC MYTH
January 9th, 2006, 12:13 PM
Fisk to me comes across as someone who obeys the orders he is given because he doesn't want to get shot in the head, like the previous XO for Pegasus did. I suspect he confided in Tigh as much as he did in hopes that the information would be passed on to Commander Adama, who might have the guts to actually do something about it. I really can't see him going through with the assassination, not once he is in the (relatively) protective atmosphere of the Galactica.

On the other hand, Starbuck would die for and kill for Adama (probably both Adamas, actually). If for nothing else than to atone for her 'sins' regarding Zak Adama. She'll do what she's ordered to do, when the command to shoot Cain is given, I bet.

I agree with you on the relationship between Starbuck and the Adama's.

But I think Frisk is a coward and will finally do the right thing and tell Adama that Cain needs to me taken out of command. Although that would be a happy ending, but most likely not Ron Moores style; but we'll find out Friday, or for me Monday night on the repeat. :(

spg_1983
January 9th, 2006, 01:11 PM
If Cain dies, who would assume command of the Pegasus, would it be Tigh or Fisk?
In a normal situation where Cain would be killed or incapacitated Fisk would likely assume command until the crisis or situation was over and the Pegasus could return to a Colonial base for after action report and debriefing. Then depending on the decision of the Colonial Fleet Admirality, Fisk would be promoted and the command made permanent, or a new commander would be assigned to the Pegasus. Fisk would either be retained as XO or depending on his performance as temporary commander relieved of shipboard duty or given another command of his own of another ship, likely not a Battlestar though. In this situation however, if Cain is taken out, Roslin and Adama will likely confer and decide on a suitable replacement, be it Fisk or someone else.

An interesting thing to consider is whether Pegasus had its own commander before the attack. As it is shown that Battlestars are commanded by Commanders such as Adama. However Cain is an Admiral. Im wondering if Pegasus was simply her flag ship at the time of the attack and that would mean the Pegasus had its own Commander prior to the attack. Since the attack Cain has assumed direct command of the Pegasus since it is her only ship left, but I wonder if the other Commander is still around. Perhaps it was Fisk and Cain made him her XO, or Fisk was her XO before and the Commander of Pegasus is still around, or shot by Cain. It might be interesting if we find out later on if there is another Commander. That could lead to an interesting conflict with Adama, since they would be of equal rank.

dosed150
January 9th, 2006, 01:17 PM
yeh that commander was probably the one she shot

rexpop
January 9th, 2006, 04:25 PM
good point on the nuke. Because in the later episodes the BSG crew said that the cylons can detect nukes, but in that note it might be possible the other cylons knew that it was time for Sharon to shoot Adam since there all programed for a particular mission.

Remember that the Raiders can also carry nukes so thanks to the transponder as far as the Basestar was concerned the Raptor looked like a nuke carrying Cylon Raider returning home.

Actually while I'm thinking about it, it looks like the Cylons in general don't seem to rely much on visual confirmation, but rather electronic sensors. I can think of at least three cases where they have been fooled by electronic counter-measure style tactics.

An interesting and believable weakness.

GALACTIC MYTH
January 9th, 2006, 07:00 PM
Remember that the Raiders can also carry nukes so thanks to the transponder as far as the Basestar was concerned the Raptor looked like a nuke carrying Cylon Raider returning home.

Actually while I'm thinking about it, it looks like the Cylons in general don't seem to rely much on visual confirmation, but rather electronic sensors. I can think of at least three cases where they have been fooled by electronic counter-measure style tactics.

An interesting and believable weakness.

Very true on the electronic sensors and agree, but the Sharons on board new that it wasn't a raider with nuke but a rapter with nukes and if they chose to they could of shot the rapter as it was escaping, since each transponder has its own individual signal.

Paul_aus
January 10th, 2006, 06:32 AM
oh my god, i was so blown away by this episode!!!!!!!! can't wait for next week!!!!! :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

on a question about Cain, is she really bad? she is only doing good for the future of the human race! the part where she shot the families in cold blood i don't agree on but taking parts from other ships and suppliers isn't humane where it must be done for the future of human life!

somedude
January 10th, 2006, 06:43 AM
I also think that Fisk won´t pull the trigger. The big question is will he decide against it before picking his marine compliment or after? If the latter we could end up with a gun fight aboard Galactica.

Fisk will just pick marines who are loyal to him, not to Cain, and wouldn't mind seeing Cain gone.

spg_1983
January 10th, 2006, 08:01 AM
on a question about Cain, is she really bad? she is only doing good for the future of the human race! the part where she shot the families in cold blood i don't agree on but taking parts from other ships and suppliers isn't humane where it must be done for the future of human life!
She's not interested in saving the human race, she is only interested in fighting and killing cylons whatever the cost. She slaughtered innocent humans to get the individuals that would most benefit her, then she striped the 15 ships of that fleet for all usable parts, including their FTL drives. She just left them floating in space appearently, at the mercy of the Cylons that could find them. If she was really interested in saving the human race she would have taken that fleet someplace safe. She didn't. She murdered them all just for a few extra parts so she could kill a couple more cylons before Pegasus is destroyed.

apollo123
January 10th, 2006, 09:38 AM
yeh that commander was probably the one she shot

Yes Fisk was definitely not the original commander of Pegasus since the XO that Cain shot was above him.

apollo123
January 10th, 2006, 09:56 AM
She's not interested in saving the human race, she is only interested in fighting and killing cylons whatever the cost. She slaughtered innocent humans to get the individuals that would most benefit her, then she striped the 15 ships of that fleet for all usable parts, including their FTL drives. She just left them floating in space appearently, at the mercy of the Cylons that could find them. If she was really interested in saving the human race she would have taken that fleet someplace safe. She didn't. She murdered them all just for a few extra parts so she could kill a couple more cylons before Pegasus is destroyed.

Well you can argue that the civilian fleet would've been destroyed anyways. Her strategy is to destroy the Cylons, not run away like Adama is doing. She can't do that while protecting civilian ships at the same time. She probably figured that the civilian ships were doomed anyways, so why not take their parts so that Pegasus can have a better chance? Yeah, it's pretty damn heartless, but she's determine to destroy the Cylons no matter what.

If you think about it, her approach isn't much different than Adama's approach before Roslyn convinced him that they should run away instead of trying to fight. If Adama decided to continue fighting, he might not be in a much different place than Cain is right now. Granted, he wouldn't have sactioned group rape or shot his XO on the bridge, but he was just as angry and thirsty for Cylon blood and he was ready to do anything to destroy them whatever the cost.

Darren
January 10th, 2006, 12:34 PM
Fantastic episode. Often the middle chapter of a 3-parter feels like going through the motions, connecting the more memorable first and third parts. This episode stands out head-and-shoulders as one of the best of the entire series to date.

One thing that struck me that I haven't seen mentioned here yet is Cain's justification for doing what she is doing. She is a flag officer on detached service during a time of war, and she legally has broad discretionary powers. By the book, she's done absolutely nothing wrong (well, up to ordering the assassination of a commander and his staff).

Note that phrase "in a time of war." That's where she still is -- she's fighting the war that the Cylons initiated months ago. She's where Adama was in the mini-series, when the President had to put him in his place and show him that the survival of the human race is more important than striking back and fighting a war. "The war is over." But it's the war that Cain is still fighting.

And because she's refused to let go, she's prioritized the war over the fleet (the survival of the human race). Everything she has done is reasonable from that sense of priority.

Speakfire
January 10th, 2006, 12:45 PM
And even in times of war, what sane military leader thinks that it is appropriate to shoot the families of civilians who are resisting enlistment and drafting.

Cyn
January 10th, 2006, 01:29 PM
I agree with you on the relationship between Starbuck and the Adama's.

But I think Fisk is a coward and will finally do the right thing and tell Adama that Cain needs to me taken out of command. Although that would be a happy ending, but most likely not Ron Moores style; but we'll find out Friday, or for me Monday night on the repeat. :(

I agree with both Speakfire and GALACTIC MYTH in re:the relationship between Starbuck and the Adamas. Also, GALACTIC MYTH's point is a excellent one as it is really important to keep "Ron Moore's style" in mind when trying to predict what comes next, as he has asserted time & again that it follows that a show that begins with the destruction of most of humanity won't have a lot of happy endings.

As for Fisk doing "the right thing"? I'm thinking maybe not--unless he somehow reaps a substantial benefit--and I don't think he wants command of the Pegasus any more than Tigh wants to command Galactica. When one thinks about it, he is just a step below her in evilness as he has carried out the atrocities she has ordered. He's quite capable of continuing being her chief "goon."

GALACTIC MYTH
January 10th, 2006, 01:29 PM
Possible spoilers from season 2 episodes 5-11.

Alright heres a theory: I don't think Starbuck is going to kill Cain she respects her to much and is willing to go back to Caprica. But if Cain did leave all those civilian ships to die and killed families (I beleive she did) to get what she wanted.

Because of this I also think that Cain is a cylon because she new imediatly how to get Kara on her side after seeing her stealth photos, this is do to pass episode that the cylons (Simon Leoban, Sharon) were and are the only things that can read her emotions no one else. Also a large portion of what happened to Kara when she was captured by the cylons that is a large portion but mostly Kara wants to return to kill the cylons because of the FARMS and of her freinds that are trapped down there.

The captive number six wants to die and is giving away all the information about the reserrection ship from the photos. Now I believe that the ship is only filled with "six's" I only saw her model. Now to me that means that there are a total of 12 reserrection ships since there are 12 cylon models.

And if anyone is going to kill Admral Cain, its going to be "number six" I don't no why I believe that but my gut is telling me, but it would be intersetting if six did because of what I stated above with Cain being a cylon, we would have cylon vs. cylon and that would sweet, don't know where that would lead in the future but it leave a lot of windows open.

possible spoilers end.

I just saw the episode for the 2nd time on a re-run on Monday night at
10:00pm ct.

Now going back in what I said above on Cain being a cylon I take it back, seeing it a 2nd time, I noticed some things I missed a small but large detail. It was a seen jumping back and forth with Cain and Adama were in their corters on their own ships looking though their WATCH LOGS and I notice Cain seemed to have tears in her eyes after she closed hers quickly (almost in fusteration; that was a 10second seen max). Im not sure if that makes her human or not.

Now to me, Cain may regret what she has done (with the civilian fleets and whatever hasn't been revealed to us yet), but as a leader she has to show that she's confident and doesn't regret anything.

If Cain was a cylon it is remarkable similar how she killed the CO (Commanding Officer)of Pegasus, just like Sharon tried to do to Adam.

More random theories going back and forth tell me what you think please need help.

Oh one more thing, ever think that Fisk is just setting up Tigh and Adama. (Im not sure if I do or not just something to think about.)

apollo123
January 10th, 2006, 01:30 PM
And even in times of war, what sane military leader thinks that it is appropriate to shoot the families of civilians who are resisting enlistment and drafting.

Up to that point, I thought Cain's actions were believeable - not necessarily justifiable, but believeable nonetheless. Shooting the familes of the civilians was going too far. As if the writers just wanted to be 110% sure that the audience would hate her.

Lightsabre
January 10th, 2006, 01:36 PM
Fantastic episode. Often the middle chapter of a 3-parter feels like going through the motions, connecting the more memorable first and third parts. This episode stands out head-and-shoulders as one of the best of the entire series to date.

One thing that struck me that I haven't seen mentioned here yet is Cain's justification for doing what she is doing. She is a flag officer on detached service during a time of war, and she legally has broad discretionary powers. By the book, she's done absolutely nothing wrong (well, up to ordering the assassination of a commander and his staff).

Note that phrase "in a time of war." That's where she still is -- she's fighting the war that the Cylons initiated months ago. She's where Adama was in the mini-series, when the President had to put him in his place and show him that the survival of the human race is more important than striking back and fighting a war. "The war is over." But it's the war that Cain is still fighting.

And because she's refused to let go, she's prioritized the war over the fleet (the survival of the human race). Everything she has done is reasonable from that sense of priority.

I'm gonna disagree with that, Darren.
The only reason that the military exists is to protect the civillians.
Cain is not protecting anyone, she's just trying to kill Cylons.
That's not a war.
Further, Cain, when she threatened the lives of civillians,when she stripped their ships and left them with nothing, was actively working against what she swore to do when she became an officer and most especially a flag officer.
I'm not a military man, or up on the law, but I don't think even a detached flag officer has the right to conscript civillians. She damn sure doesn't have the right to order the execution of civillians to make others comply with her orders.
These actions are illegal.
Further, this ep shows her to be a spoilt child, or to have that mentality. Adama defied her, she must kill him. And not only him, but his entire command crew.
Moreover, she punishes his son for planning and executing a reconnissance op, then rewards the pilot who flew it, citing skills, bravery and an ability to get the job done.
Which is it? either the op was a failure or it wasn't.
She's acting like a spoilt, petty child in the schoolyard, not like a commander fighting a war.

GALACTIC MYTH
January 10th, 2006, 01:52 PM
I'm gonna disagree with that, Darren.
The only reason that the military exists is to protect the civillians.
Cain is not protecting anyone, she's just trying to kill Cylons.
That's not a war.
Further, Cain, when she threatened the lives of civillians,when she stripped their ships and left them with nothing, was actively working against what she swore to do when she became an officer and most especially a flag officer.
I'm not a military man, or up on the law, but I don't think even a detached flag officer has the right to conscript civillians. She damn sure doesn't have the right to order the execution of civillians to make others comply with her orders.
These actions are illegal.
Further, this ep shows her to be a spoilt child, or to have that mentality. Adama defied her, she must kill him. And not only him, but his entire command crew.
Moreover, she punishes his son for planning and executing a reconnissance op, then rewards the pilot who flew it, citing skills, bravery and an ability to get the job done.
Which is it? either the op was a failure or it wasn't.
She's acting like a spoilt, petty child in the schoolyard, not like a commander fighting a war.

I agree, that is why Adama decided to protect the civilians and not fight against the cylons but to defend. Roslin was just the one to remind Adama about the oath he took as a commander. And excellent point on the "reconnissance op" it was successful do to the both of them, Apollo's
order to Starbuck to "go take some pretty pictures" and starbuck followed the order.

apollo123
January 10th, 2006, 02:03 PM
I'm not a military man, or up on the law

By "military man" and "up on the law", you of course mean *American* military and *American* law. This is a very different world and their laws (especially military law) are presumeably also very different as well. Seems like Cain has been able to justify all of her actions as lawful and Adama has not challenged her at all in that respect. He disagrees with her decisions, but I don't think he disagrees that it was within the law. It would seem that during a time of war, she has full jurisdiction to do whatever the hell she wants to. It may be "wrong" according to our moral standards, but not illegal according to their laws.

Lightsabre
January 10th, 2006, 02:16 PM
I agree, that is why Adama decided to protect the civilians and not fight against the cylons but to defend. Roslin was just the one to remind Adama about the oath he took as a commander. And excellent point on the "reconnissance op" it was successful do to the both of them, Apollo's
order to Starbuck to "go take some pretty pictures" and starbuck followed the order.
Yes,and just thinking about that scene again, I wonder if she promoted Starbuck because she thought it would be a way to gain her loyalty. She won't have apollo's, not after she transferred and demoted him, and since his dad is Galactica's commander, but she might have thought praise and promotion would win over Starbuck.

It also highlights her command style. one mistake and you are useless and therefore, demoted. No mitigating circumstances(like the fact Stinger told them NOT to use the blackbird) or consideration for past performance.
That's a hard, cold way to run things.
Sure, it makes your people do their best, but it also raises their stress level through the roof, wondering which mistake could mean their demotion or death.

Lightsabre
January 10th, 2006, 02:19 PM
By "military man" and "up on the law", you of course mean *American* military and *American* law. This is a very different world and their laws (especially military law) are presumeably also very different as well. Seems like Cain has been able to justify all of her actions as lawful and Adama has not challenged her at all in that respect. He disagrees with her decisions, but I don't think he disagrees that it was within the law. It would seem that during a time of war, she has full jurisdiction to do whatever the hell she wants to. It may be "wrong" according to our moral standards, but not illegal according to their laws.
No actually, I don't, not being american. But that is beside the point.
This is a tv show and we are making extrapolations and assumptions. I know that.
I also find it very difficult to believe that any democracy would allow for it's troops and commanders to treat civillians like that.
Adama knows, by the time they find out about the Scylla, that Cain is beyond reasoning. That's why he doesn't challange her on it.
SHe already hates and fears him, what is challenging her on her illegal actions going to do??
While it's 'wrong' by our moral standards, and theirs, it's also 'illegal' by our laws.
I would be very suprised if it wasn't illegal by theirs.

GALACTIC MYTH
January 10th, 2006, 02:20 PM
By "military man" and "up on the law", you of course mean *American* military and *American* law. This is a very different world and their laws (especially military law) are presumeably also very different as well. Seems like Cain has been able to justify all of her actions as lawful and Adama has not challenged her at all in that respect. He disagrees with her decisions, but I don't think he disagrees that it was within the law. It would seem that during a time of war, she has full jurisdiction to do whatever the hell she wants to. It may be "wrong" according to our moral standards, but not illegal according to their laws.

true we don't know what their laws are compared to ours, but I think Mr. Moore tries to keep it simple for all of us to follow some basic governmental laws and moral judgment.

and I still agree with lightsabre

GALACTIC MYTH
January 10th, 2006, 02:38 PM
Yes,and just thinking about that scene again, I wonder if she promoted Starbuck because she thought it would be a way to gain her loyalty. She won't have apollo's, not after she transferred and demoted him, and since his dad is Galactica's commander, but she might have thought praise and promotion would win over Starbuck.


Yes, I also believe Cain sees Kara as a threat and would rather be with her than against her and that is why she promoted her and "because she thought it would be away to gain her loyalty". "But she might have thought praise and a promotion would win over Starbuck"

Lightsabre
January 10th, 2006, 03:53 PM
Yes, I also believe Cain sees Kara as a threat and would rather be with her than against her and that is why she promoted her and "because she thought it would be away to gain her loyalty". "But she might have thought praise and a promotion would win over Starbuck"
A threat? If she saw kara as a threat, wouldn't she leave her on Galactica??

Speakfire
January 10th, 2006, 04:09 PM
Haven't you ever heard the saying, "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.."

Lightsabre
January 10th, 2006, 04:33 PM
Haven't you ever heard the saying, "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.."

Course I have.
I'd just keep the threats contained on one ship, which would be lamentably destroyed in the battle with the cylons.
I certainly wouldn't give a threat a place in my command structure.

Darren
January 10th, 2006, 04:38 PM
GM, we don't disagree. What I mean is that from her point of view, with "Anything it takes to win this war" as her priority, her decisions are logical. Adama, in sharp contrast, was convinced early on that the war is over -- "We lost."

She's absolutely over the line in conscripting civilians, and obviously in murdering people to make sure she gets who and what she thinks she needs. But her sole goal is "Win the war, at all costs." I find it fascinating that this is where Adama, in theory, could have gone without Roslin.

GALACTIC MYTH
January 10th, 2006, 05:04 PM
Haven't you ever heard the saying, "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.

Lightsabre Quote:

Course I have.
I'd just keep the threats contained on one ship, which would be lamentably destroyed in the battle with the cylons.
I certainly wouldn't give a threat a place in my command structure. ."

Speakfire, thats exactly what I was going to say, so thank you for saying it for me.

Lightsabre, so if you were Cain you would destroy Galactica at the cylon attack, and then pray that you don't come across them again?

Anyways if Kara is in Cains "command structure" Cain knows where she's located and doing at every moment as Kara being Captain, (although she was able to sneek away last time as a Lt.) also it'll be harder because she would have to report and get approveal directly to and from Cain and not avoid the chain of cammand.

GALACTIC MYTH
January 10th, 2006, 05:14 PM
GM, we don't disagree. What I mean is that from her point of view, with "Anything it takes to win this war" as her priority, her decisions are logical. Adama, in sharp contrast, was convinced early on that the war is over -- "We lost."

She's absolutely over the line in conscripting civilians, and obviously in murdering people to make sure she gets who and what she thinks she needs. But her sole goal is "Win the war, at all costs." I find it fascinating that this is where Adama, in theory, could have gone without Roslin.


Ok "could have gone without Roslin", possible but I believe some one from the crew would of told him that its the wrong choice, (like D did in "Home Part 1 and Home Part 2" to rejoin the fleet.)

Lightsabre
January 10th, 2006, 05:45 PM
Speakfire, thats exactly what I was going to say, so thank you for saying it for me.

Lightsabre, so if you were Cain you would destroy Galactica at the cylon attack, and then pray that you don't come across them again?

Anyways if Kara is in Cains "command structure" Cain knows where she's located and doing at every moment as Kara being Captain, (although she was able to sneek away last time as a Lt.) also it'll be harder because she would have to report and get approveal directly to and from Cain and not avoid the chain of cammand.

If I was Cain, I would make sure the Galactica took the brunt of the Cylon attack, thus keeping my battlestar in better shape. Should we lose and I needed to run, I have the better chance of making it. Should we win and the BSG is destroyed, my enemies are gone.
Should we win, the BSG will be very heavily damaged, meaning I can storm it and arrest Adama, or simply threaten to blow it up.

I accept that bringing Kara into the command structure will help to keep an eye on her, but to me, giving her power means she will use it. which in turn means she could use it against me. The very annonimity that allows her to sneak off also means she cannot do a thing against me.

Lightsabre
January 10th, 2006, 05:52 PM
GM, we don't disagree. What I mean is that from her point of view, with "Anything it takes to win this war" as her priority, her decisions are logical. Adama, in sharp contrast, was convinced early on that the war is over -- "We lost."

She's absolutely over the line in conscripting civilians, and obviously in murdering people to make sure she gets who and what she thinks she needs. But her sole goal is "Win the war, at all costs." I find it fascinating that this is where Adama, in theory, could have gone without Roslin.

See, here again, I don't see the comparison.
Cain is young, Adama old. Adama fought in the Cylon war, hell he was a hero by the sounds of it.
Cain did not.
Cain is an admiral at a young age because she was fast tracked through. Why? we don't know. But, that sort of treatment tends to make a person think they are charmed, special, a cut above the rest.
Adama, on the other hand, worked for his command. He fought and bled and killed for it.
He runs his ship like a family, with himself as a patriarch. There is loyalty there, precisely because his people know he WON'T do a Cain on them.
He wouldn't have done what Tigh did, in ordering the martial law that came back to bite them on the backside.
Look at Tyrol, in the mini. He tells Adama "I know you would have given my people the time to make it to the hatch".
Adama tells him he wouldn't, then tells him why. He is stern, but it's never, 'obey my orders or die' sort of sterness.
Sorry, this rambled a bit. Basically, while Adama may have gotten darker and more ruthless, I don't think he would ever have turned into Cain.

Liebestraume
January 10th, 2006, 07:17 PM
The friend who had told me to check out BSG -- on the eve of 33 premier -- said this was an awesome episode because of "... all those flippy ships" and "other stuff." As I was watching Resurrection Ship last night, I almost forgot about "all those flippy ships" because "other stuff" were just so darn captivating.

One of the things I love about this show is that every seemingly throw-away scene is pregnant with meanings. Take, for example, the "let-go" discussion between Chief and Helo. What each of them said is entirely reflective of their respective personality and position. And Cain's reviling of Gina -- who used to "sit in our mess, eat our food, etc." -- raised the ugly possibility that the latter had once been a member of the her crew, much like Boomer had been on Galactica.

The short scene between Baltar and Six was fascinating to me, because it indicated his continued disassociation from the human race. I still remember a scene from the first half of S2 where, amidst the chaos on Galactica, he was caught up in a reverie of observing fish in a stream. If he had only felt a passive sense of detachment back then, he seemed to be poised to actively sever ties with humanity now. "I'm tired of this" -- and by "this" I took he meant the idea of his home on Caprica, a symbol of and a link to his human heritage.

Someone once said "women have all the balls on BSG" -- an over-simplification, to be sure; but I came close to agreeing with that last night :p. During the confrontation/conference aboard Colonial One, one could clearly see both women were coldly, and without any scruples, assessing the situation. Not that any of this made me see Adama in a bad light, because his sense of honor is one of the things I love about him; however, it was also very obvious that he absolutely needs Roslin. (As a side note, their interaction totally gave off the vibe of "old friends." Given how long the characters knew each other, I would not have believed that possible had it not been the amazing performance by the actors.)

As for the other woman, I couldn't help to feel a certain degree of empathy for her. It was painfully clear that Cain was fighting a war that had been lost a long time ago. One of the reasons, as other posters have pointed out up-thread, was that Cain never had a Roslin telling her "the war is over, and we lost." But I rather suspect that, had Roslin been there to tell her all this, she might not have listened. Not necessarily because Cain was crazy, but because she was the kind of warrior whose goal in life was to fight -- she always knew what to fight against, just not whom to fight for. It's sobering thought.

Lightsabre
January 10th, 2006, 07:31 PM
Someone once said "women have all the balls on BSG" -- an over-simplification, to be sure; but I came close to agreeing with that last night :p. During the confrontation/conference aboard Colonial One, one could clearly see both women were coldly, and without any scruples, assessing the situation. Not that any of this made me see Adama in a bad light, because his sense of honor is one of the things I love about him; however, it was also very obvious that he absolutely needs Roslin. (As a side note, their interaction totally gave off the vibe of "old friends." Given how long the characters knew each other, I would not have believed that possible had it not been the amazing performance by the actors.)


I've heard that statement before, and I don't really agree. THe women of BSG are tough little cookies, but then, so are the men.
Adama, in the scene on Colonial One, was very, very ridgidly keeping himself in check. He wasn't talking to or acknowledging Cain becuase to do so could lead to him losing control as badly as she did.
I don't get how you can say Cain had balls. She was blustering and yelling. I thought it was vaugely pathetic.
As to Adama needing Roslin, I didn't get that at all. I saw the 'old friends' thing tho, came through very strongly.
Also notice that Adama not blustering and Raging like Cain did meant that Roslin didn't treat him like a naughty school child like she did to Cain



As for the other woman, I couldn't help to feel a certain degree of empathy for her. It was painfully clear that Cain was fighting a war that had been lost a long time ago. One of the reasons, as other posters have pointed out up-thread, was that Cain never had a Roslin telling her "the war is over, and we lost." But I rather suspect that, had Roslin been there to tell her all this, she might not have listened. Not necessarily because Cain was crazy, but because she was the kind of warrior whose goal in life was to fight -- she always knew what to fight against, just not whom to fight for. It's sobering thought.
This is the other thing I hate about the Cain/Adama comparisions. I'm not convinced Adama would have become Cain, or Cain to the degree she's at now, without Roslin. I do think things would have been run militarily and military needs would come first, but I can't see Adama jettisoning ships or forcing conscription.
For those that will say he was going to abandon the fleet, it's true, he was. But he wasn't going to strip them and leave them, and he didn't pick over their crew manifests.
He was simply going to attack the enemy and leave the civillians to run.

Liebestraume
January 10th, 2006, 07:46 PM
I've heard that statement before, and I don't really agree. THe women of BSG are tough little cookies, but then, so are the men.
Adama, in the scene on Colonial One, was very, very ridgidly keeping himself in check. He wasn't talking to or acknowledging Cain becuase to do so could lead to him losing control as badly as she did.
I don't get how you can say Cain had balls. She was blustering and yelling. I thought it was vaugely pathetic.
As to Adama needing Roslin, I didn't get that at all. I saw the 'old friends' thing tho, came through very strongly.
Also notice that Adama not blustering and Raging like Cain did meant that Roslin didn't treat him like a naughty school child like she did to CainIn case you haven't noticed the little smiley, I'll let it be known that I was speaking half in jest. Here is another one ... ;)

As for Adama needing Roslin, he definitely did here. She was the one who saw what was the "necessary evil" and pushed him towards that course of action.


This is the other thing I hate about the Cain/Adama comparisions. I'm not convinced Adama would have become Cain, or Cain to the degree she's at now, without Roslin. I do think things would have been run militarily and military needs would come first, but I can't see Adama jettisoning ships or forcing conscription.
For those that will say he was going to abandon the fleet, it's true, he was. But he wasn't going to strip them and leave them, and he didn't pick over their crew manifests.
He was simply going to attack the enemy and leave the civillians to run.I am sorry ... but where did I say Adama would have become Cain without Roslin?

In fact, part of my point was that they have entirely different mindset. The logical conclusion would have been that he would never have become Cain.

GALACTIC MYTH
January 10th, 2006, 08:03 PM
I'm not sure if anyone did say or is saying that if Adam didn't have Roslin he would've become Cain. But if you are I disagree.

Adama is the kind of person who will always do the right thing, even if he doesn't come to that conclusion right-away. Take the flashbacks of Tigh and Adama for instence (I won't explain them cause I assume you've seen them). Also no one made Adama the man he is, he is a an honorable, loyal man by heart that always been apart of him. (not sure if that made sence). NO one makes choices for Adama he does he can agree or disagree but finds a solution. Adama is a good man and would never become a Cain, and that could bother Cain. (okay went off there for a sec but Im done now.)

Lightsabre
January 10th, 2006, 08:12 PM
In case you haven't noticed the little smiley, I'll let it be known that I was speaking half in jest. Here is another one ... ;)

As for Adama needing Roslin, he definitely did here. She was the one who saw what was the "necessary evil" and pushed him towards that course of action.

I see your point, but I also think you are overstating it a bit. I suspect it's more that they need each other.
As far as smiley's go, I tend to ignore them. They annoy me. Either way, I wasn't attacking you on the comment, just adding my own.


I am sorry ... but where did I say Adama would have become Cain without Roslin?

In fact, part of my point was that they have entirely different mindset. The logical conclusion would have been that he would never have become Cain.

I don't recall saying you did. You did say that Cain didn't have a Roslin telling her the war was over. I took this to mean that you believed without Roslin's influence, Adama would have done much the same as what Cain is doing.

spg_1983
January 10th, 2006, 08:17 PM
Well you can argue that the civilian fleet would've been destroyed anyways. Her strategy is to destroy the Cylons, not run away like Adama is doing. She can't do that while protecting civilian ships at the same time. She probably figured that the civilian ships were doomed anyways, so why not take their parts so that Pegasus can have a better chance? Yeah, it's pretty damn heartless, but she's determine to destroy the Cylons no matter what.

If you think about it, her approach isn't much different than Adama's approach before Roslyn convinced him that they should run away instead of trying to fight. If Adama decided to continue fighting, he might not be in a much different place than Cain is right now. Granted, he wouldn't have sactioned group rape or shot his XO on the bridge, but he was just as angry and thirsty for Cylon blood and he was ready to do anything to destroy them whatever the cost.
Im not saying that isnt her strategy. I was respoding to a post that asked if she was really bad because she was doing whatever was neccesary to save the human race. She isn't trying to do that at all. Her only goal is to destroy as many cylons as she can before they take her out.

Lightsabre
January 10th, 2006, 08:20 PM
Im not saying that isnt her strategy. I was respoding to a post that asked if she was really bad because she was doing whatever was neccesary to save the human race. She isn't trying to do that at all. Her only goal is to destroy as many cylons as she can before they take her out.
Exactly, Cain doesn't give a hoot about the human race.
How does she expect to retake Caprica and the other 11 planets with 1 ship?
And VERY finite crew, with no civilians to draw replacements from.
In stripping and abandoning that fleet, the only other humans she knew about, Cain effectively turned her back on humans as a species.

Liebestraume
January 10th, 2006, 08:27 PM
I see your point, but I also think you are overstating it a bit. I suspect it's more that they need each other.
As far as smiley's go, I tend to ignore them. They annoy me. Either way, I wasn't attacking you on the comment, just adding my own.No doubt they need each other, but why is stating one needing the other over-stating?

I didn't think you were attacking me -- after all, this is not about me -- but I thought, and still think, that you misconstrued my comments when adding your own. That was what I was addressing.


I don't recall saying you did. You did say that Cain didn't have a Roslin telling her the war was over. I took this to mean that you believed without Roslin's influence, Adama would have done much the same as what Cain is doing.Well, "Cain didn't have a Roslin telling her etc." does not necessarily lead to "without Roslin's influence, Adama would have done much the same etc." Much in the same way that a necessary condition is not the same as a sufficient one.

In any case, I stand by the full body of the post. Feel free to infer from it anything you choose to. :cool:

Lightsabre
January 10th, 2006, 08:37 PM
No doubt they need each other, but why is stating one needing the other over-stating?

I didn't think you were attacking me -- after all, this is not about me -- but I thought, and still think, that you misconstrued my comments when adding your own. That was what I was addressing.

Overstating? I meant simply that Adama can and does function on his own sans Roslin.
The sense I got from your post was that Adama would have been lost without her.
Hence, overstating. Roslin and Adama do need each other, but they could cope, were the other to die.
But this is really getting into minutae here. Let's just let this discussion over who said what and what it meant go.


Well, "Cain didn't have a Roslin telling her etc." does not necessarily lead to "without Roslin's influence, Adama would have done much the same etc." Much in the same way that a necessary condition is not the same as a sufficient one.

In any case, I stand by the full body of the post. Feel free to infer from it anything you choose to. :cool: [/COLOR]
Ok, actually, here I am going to disagree with you. IF you say, 'Cain didn't have a Roslin telling her, so that's how she got here' then you make Roslin's presence a key part of Adama NOT being in the same place Cain is.
So, that does mean that without Roslin, Adama would be cain-like.
No need to stand by your post, I never thought you meant to be insulting to the characters, simply presenting my opinions on your post.

Liebestraume
January 10th, 2006, 09:30 PM
...The sense I got from your post was that Adama would have been lost without her.
Hence, overstating. ... Then you were not paying close enough attention to what you read. Hence, misconstruing. :cool: But, let's heed your advice and ...
... just let this discussion over who said what and what it meant go. Shall we? ;)


Ok, actually, here I am going to disagree with you. IF you say, 'Cain didn't have a Roslin telling her, so that's how she got here' then you make Roslin's presence a key part of Adama NOT being in the same place Cain is. ...But how are we to do that if you keep putting words in my mouth? :( It is quite clear that the "so ..." part (which I took the liberty to highlight) was never there in the first place.

That there is an awfully big "IF" -- and, if I may add, that big "IF" had already been vacated by the full body of the post (which was the reason for the "stand by" comment, btw). :) At the risk of repeating oneself, let me reiterate

...In fact, part of my point was that they have entirely different mindset. The logical conclusion would have been that [Adama] would never have become Cain.

Therefore, exactly on what were you disagreeing with me? :confused:

MASON
January 11th, 2006, 10:46 AM
Further, this ep shows her to be a spoilt child, or to have that mentality. Adama defied her, she must kill him. And not only him, but his entire command crew.
Moreover, she punishes his son for planning and executing a reconnissance op, then rewards the pilot who flew it, citing skills, bravery and an ability to get the job done.
As they say in the British navy of olde, a good captain would never have these problems, everything in the captain's ship, in the admiral's fleet is under their own control, any insurrections are their own fault.

...Mutineers, however, were still punished with death.

Adama wouldn't have acted mutinously if Cain had been a good admiral. :)

apollo123
January 11th, 2006, 10:51 AM
Im not saying that isnt her strategy. I was respoding to a post that asked if she was really bad because she was doing whatever was neccesary to save the human race. She isn't trying to do that at all. Her only goal is to destroy as many cylons as she can before they take her out.

No I actually think that she believes she can win the war with Pegasus, not simply take out as many cylons as she can, but to destroy them all. Then, the human race can continue with the people on Pegasus. Is it naive? Probably, but it was Adama's position at one point as well. He honestly thought that Galactica needed to stay and win the war by herself.

So from that standpoint, what do you do when you run across a helpless civilian ship? As harsh as it sounds, stripping it of valuable resources and taking along the most useful personnel would be the most effective military strategy. Otherwise, what do you do? Just leave it behind? It would be destroyed anyways. This way, at least Pegasus benefits and has a better fighting chance. Bring it along with you? Having to protect and support this other ship while your'e fighting cylons isn't going to win you many battles. The *only* other viable option is to do what Adama did - take it along with you and run away. Which again is not an option for Cain since she has already resolved that the only way to win the war and save humanity is to stay and fight.

Lightsabre
January 11th, 2006, 01:12 PM
But how are we to do that if you keep putting words in my mouth? :( It is quite clear that the "so ..." part (which I took the liberty to highlight) was never there in the first place.

That there is an awfully big "IF" -- and, if I may add, that big "IF" had already been vacated by the full body of the post (which was the reason for the "stand by" comment, btw). :) At the risk of repeating oneself, let me reiterate


Therefore, exactly on what were you disagreeing with me? :confused:
It was NOT vacated by the body of the post. You maintained that Roslin's presence is what stopped Adama from becoming Cain like.
Therefore, sans Roslin, he would be cain or close.
THAT is what I disagree with. And no, you never said it straight out, it was implied by the material.
ANd before you tell me I'm not paying close enough attention, consider that this is on the net and that I might have interpreted your post differently than you meant it to be. This does not mean I'm wrong. It simply means you were a little ambiguos on this point.
IF you didn't mean what I thought, just say that, rather than attempt to prove I'm 'wrong' or accuse me of putting words in your mouth.

spg_1983
January 11th, 2006, 04:55 PM
No I actually think that she believes she can win the war with Pegasus, not simply take out as many cylons as she can, but to destroy them all. Then, the human race can continue with the people on Pegasus. Is it naive? Probably, but it was Adama's position at one point as well. He honestly thought that Galactica needed to stay and win the war by herself.

So from that standpoint, what do you do when you run across a helpless civilian ship? As harsh as it sounds, stripping it of valuable resources and taking along the most useful personnel would be the most effective military strategy. Otherwise, what do you do? Just leave it behind? It would be destroyed anyways. This way, at least Pegasus benefits and has a better fighting chance. Bring it along with you? Having to protect and support this other ship while your'e fighting cylons isn't going to win you many battles. The *only* other viable option is to do what Adama did - take it along with you and run away. Which again is not an option for Cain since she has already resolved that the only way to win the war and save humanity is to stay and fight.The problem is that that plan and belief is not only naive, it is insane. Yes one must have confidence in their ship and abilities, but you must also be realistic, there is no way the Pegasus could survive battle with all the Basestars and cylon forces, even with hit and run tactics it will eventually wear Pegasus down. Plus what is the point of taking back the colonies if you have killed the colonists? sure you may be able to take back the physical land, but by killing, and thats what it is not sacrificing she is actually killing the civillians, the colonists, what is the point? She has destroyed what makes us human. Plus her duty as a military officer is to protect the colonists. Taking back the property of the colonies is secondary, her first duty is to the people.

apollo123
January 11th, 2006, 05:44 PM
The problem is that that plan and belief is not only naive, it is insane. Yes one must have confidence in their ship and abilities, but you must also be realistic, there is no way the Pegasus could survive battle with all the Basestars and cylon forces, even with hit and run tactics it will eventually wear Pegasus down.


Which is why taking resupplying Pegasus whenever you get the chance is a good idea.



Plus what is the point of taking back the colonies if you have killed the colonists?


Well the people onboard Pegasus, the crew, are colonists too. They can rebuild the colonies even if all other humans are gone.



She has destroyed what makes us human. Plus her duty as a military officer is to protect the colonists. Taking back the property of the colonies is secondary, her first duty is to the people.

I won't deny that what she's doing is inhuman and completely immoral. But I wanted to point out that given her decision to fight instead of run, she didn't have too many options - strip the civilian ship or leave them to die. What els could she have done (besides run like Adama of course)?

It's a harsh and cruel option, but you can't say it wasn't a good strategic move. Doing that helped them win more battles, perhaps put them closer to winning the war. There maybe other colonists still alive and the sooner they win the war, the more likely they could be saved.

spg_1983
January 11th, 2006, 06:11 PM
It's a harsh and cruel option, but you can't say it wasn't a good strategic move. Doing that helped them win more battles, perhaps put them closer to winning the war. There maybe other colonists still alive and the sooner they win the war, the more likely they could be saved.
actually I can say it wasn't a good strategic move. Her entire plan is poor strategy. One single ship, even with lots of spare parts, doesn't stand a chance. The fact that she would embark on this course shows that she has cracked. Any sane leader would realize that. There is nothing defensable about her actions. She is cracked and not stable. She may have convinced herself that she could possible win, but all she really cares about is causing the cylons pain. Her treatment of Gina is evidence of that. She just wants to hurt her.

Lightsabre
January 11th, 2006, 06:12 PM
Which is why taking resupplying Pegasus whenever you get the chance is a good idea.

But by killing the people she's ostensibly winning the colonies back for?
If that sounds like a good and rational argument to her, then I'd suggest she's lost it.
Also, Pegasus CANNOT win alone.It needs support,. It needs to be resupplied, and often. Galactica is resupplied by refinery and food ships in the colonial fleet.
Pegasus, by abandoning them, has NO guarantee of resupply when it needs it.
If Cain's goal is to win back the colonies, then she should have kept the ships to resupply Pegasus.



Well the people onboard Pegasus, the crew, are colonists too. They can rebuild the colonies even if all other humans are gone.

And how many does she have? Is there even a viable gene pool?
How many women? How many women still of child bearing age?
What kind of tech base does she have? What kind of med base?
One warship cannot repopulate a planet. Unless it holds a crew in the thousands, the gene pool is not diverse enough to sustain itself.



I won't deny that what she's doing is inhuman and completely immoral. But I wanted to point out that given her decision to fight instead of run, she didn't have too many options - strip the civilian ship or leave them to die. What els could she have done (besides run like Adama of course)?

She didn't HAVE to strip them OR leave them. She could have taken them with her. At the very least, she could have left them their jump drives.
But, to me, given, as I and others have said, her first duty a military officer was protection of civilians, she should have revised her decision to fight to the death.
That she didn't means she is giving up the principles she claims to hold dear.
Same with her treatment of Roslin.


It's a harsh and cruel option, but you can't say it wasn't a good strategic move. Doing that helped them win more battles, perhaps put them closer to winning the war. There maybe other colonists still alive and the sooner they win the war, the more likely they could be saved.
Yes, I can.
As I said above, stripping the ships resupplied Pegasus for a short while. Keeping would mean resupply for a LONG time.
Cain has never been close to winning. She never had a chance with only one ship, a large portion of her crew killed and no viable support base.
Further, with more ships, she could have found a viable planet, settled it, built a tech base and taken back the colonies that way.

Lightsabre
January 11th, 2006, 06:12 PM
actually I can say it wasn't a good strategic move. Her entire plan is poor strategy. One single ship, even with lots of spare parts, doesn't stand a chance. The fact that she would embark on this course shows that she has cracked. Any sane leader would realize that. There is nothing defensable about her actions. She is cracked and not stable. She may have convinced herself that she could possible win, but all she really cares about is causing the cylons pain. Her treatment of Gina is evidence of that. She just wants to hurt her.
AMen.

Liebestraume
January 11th, 2006, 06:13 PM
It was NOT vacated by the body of the post. You maintained that Roslin's presence is what stopped Adama from becoming Cain like.
Therefore, sans Roslin, he would be cain or close.
THAT is what I disagree with. And no, you never said it straight out, it was implied by the material.
ANd before you tell me I'm not paying close enough attention, consider that this is on the net and that I might have interpreted your post differently than you meant it to be. This does not mean I'm wrong. It simply means you were a little ambiguos on this point.
IF you didn't mean what I thought, just say that, rather than attempt to prove I'm 'wrong' or accuse me of putting words in your mouth.
Oh, geeze, here we go again. More of the same presumption and flawed logic ...

For the last time, may I remind you the following is what I did say:

...In fact, part of my point was that they have entirely different mindset. The logical conclusion would have been that [Adama] would never have become Cain.

As for the rest ... I have absolutely no interest in your being "right" or "wrong" but simply in explaining my position to you. But I'll cease such an exercise in futility and let this thread stay on Resurrection Ship, Part 1 discussion.

My apologies to everyone else for letting this ... OT-ness go on thus far. :o

Lightsabre
January 11th, 2006, 06:15 PM
Oh, geeze, here we go again. More of the same presumption and flawed logic ...

For the last time, may I remind you the following is what I did say


As for the rest ... I had absolutely no interest in your being "right" or "wrong" but simply in explaining my position to you. But I'll cease such an exercise in futility and let this thread stay on Resurrection Ship, Part 1 discussion.

My apologies to everyone else for letting this ... OT-ness go on thus far. :o
I'm over this Liebestraume. Every time I comment or respond to one of your posts, it becomes a long drawn out battle.
If you want to believe what you posted above, fine. I cannot find the energy to keep doing this with you.

voigtstr
January 11th, 2006, 07:02 PM
Exactly. :P If it hadn’t been for Starbuck, no one else would have been insane enough to fly right into the heart of the ship and take all those pretty pictures. ;) Cain was ready to toss both of them in the brig for insubordination, but backed off because Starbuck got her something she wanted. Course sure Cain’s got it out for Lee because he in an Adama…. Had to kind of feel sorry for Pegasus’s CAG getting a demotion just because he didn’t keep a close enough eye on Apollo.


I do have one nitpick though…. How did the blackbird show up on dradis when Kara jumped back to the fleet? I thought it was immune to that.

It was very close when it showed up on dradis.. that might have been a factor.
Where did it get FTL from? Did they take it from one of the heavy raiders they have access to? (one that crashed port flight deck) (one that Sharon flew back)

voigtstr
January 11th, 2006, 07:09 PM
Thanks for ruining Buffy for me. I'm on the beginning of season 2.

You should then know that buffy died breifly in the last episode of season 1!
The Master drowned her.

GALACTIC MYTH
January 11th, 2006, 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by LoneStar1836
Exactly. If it hadn’t been for Starbuck, no one else would have been insane enough to fly right into the heart of the ship and take all those pretty pictures. Cain was ready to toss both of them in the brig for insubordination, but backed off because Starbuck got her something she wanted. Course sure Cain’s got it out for Lee because he in an Adama…. Had to kind of feel sorry for Pegasus’s CAG getting a demotion just because he didn’t keep a close enough eye on Apollo.


I do have one nitpick though…. How did the blackbird show up on dradis when Kara jumped back to the fleet? I thought it was immune to that.


It was very close when it showed up on dradis.. that might have been a factor.
Where did it get FTL from? Did they take it from one of the heavy raiders they have access to? (one that crashed port flight deck) (one that Sharon flew back)

LoneStar 1836: I just wanted to say, Kara was able to get so close to the resurrection ship because she turned of all her electronics off and just used the stability pedals, just like she did when test flying it with Lee (saw her turn off her helmet light in both episodes 209 flight of the Pheonix and 211 resurrection ship part 1 we saw her it the electronics off).

voigtstr: I think they may have took it from the viper that was scrapt also from ep. 209 when CPO Galen Tyrol was why he decided to build the blackbird because Lee's ship was "beyond repair". Thats my guess.

spg_1983
January 11th, 2006, 08:45 PM
Im not sure but wasnt it said early on that the Vipers didn't have FTL and they were wondering how the cylon Raiders managed to have FTL being so small?

GALACTIC MYTH
January 11th, 2006, 08:57 PM
sorry wow brain dead their for a sec, I confused the vipers with the raiders for some reason. Im not sure how they got the FTL's (maybe they had spares lol).

Mr. Seven
January 12th, 2006, 01:59 AM
I hope we get a nice space battle next episode. I think the next few episodes after this one are based on ships, so something tells me they really put their visual effects money into this battle.

Speakfire
January 12th, 2006, 02:22 AM
I'd actually suspect they developed the Blackbirds FTL capabilities not from a Viper at all, but from a Raptor. As we don't know what all is involved in FTL drives (outside requiring Tylium as a fuel source) we have no idea on the size of a small FTL drive. I would suspect it has to do with some kind of mass/jump ratio. IE the bigger the ship, the bigger the FTL has to be. The Blackbird is a small ship that has room for 1 occupant, doesn't appear to have major weapons capability like the fast and nasty Vipers, so doesn't need a jump drive the size of the Raptor. In addition, regular maintenance on Raptors would mean that Tyrol and his deck gang understand the inner and outer workings of FTL drives, so putting one on the Blackbird is well within the realms of believability. The Blackbird has no armor to protect it in combat, and I suspect that what few weapons are on the ship are for a very quick hit and run attack and an even quicker escape, like the mission planned for taking out the Resurrection ship. Less room for weapons = more room for an FTL drive.

Remember that Vipers were made for close combat support. They need what little room they have on their ships for carrying as much ordinance and ammo as possible, not for FTL. In regards to the cylon raiders having jump capabilities, cylons obviously are far more technologically advanced, the ships are small (small ship, small ftl drive) and they don't seem to have a 'scout class' like the Raptors in their fleet. All of the Cylon raiders are scouts. Thus, all have FTL.

alaskannut
January 12th, 2006, 03:24 AM
Damn BSG is probably the best show on TV, i
Which is probably why TIME magazine just declared the best TV show of 2005:) :)

That said, I must say WOW!! This ep fracking rocked!:) BSG just keeps getting better and better.:) :)

GALACTIC MYTH
January 12th, 2006, 07:50 AM
I'd actually suspect they developed the Blackbirds FTL capabilities not from a Viper at all, but from a Raptor. As we don't know what all is involved in FTL drives (outside requiring Tylium as a fuel source) we have no idea on the size of a small FTL drive. I would suspect it has to do with some kind of mass/jump ratio. IE the bigger the ship, the bigger the FTL has to be. The Blackbird is a small ship that has room for 1 occupant, doesn't appear to have major weapons capability like the fast and nasty Vipers, so doesn't need a jump drive the size of the Raptor. In addition, regular maintenance on Raptors would mean that Tyrol and his deck gang understand the inner and outer workings of FTL drives, so putting one on the Blackbird is well within the realms of believability. The Blackbird has no armor to protect it in combat, and I suspect that what few weapons are on the ship are for a very quick hit and run attack and an even quicker escape, like the mission planned for taking out the Resurrection ship. Less room for weapons = more room for an FTL drive.

Remember that Vipers were made for close combat support. They need what little room they have on their ships for carrying as much ordinance and ammo as possible, not for FTL. In regards to the cylon raiders having jump capabilities, cylons obviously are far more technologically advanced, the ships are small (small ship, small ftl drive) and they don't seem to have a 'scout class' like the Raptors in their fleet. All of the Cylon raiders are scouts. Thus, all have FTL.

Good point and it is beleivable. As I was reading this though I remembered an ep. from season 2 (Flight of the Pheonex??) where a cyon rader is playing with BSG pretending that it can't use its FTL and is actually downloading the video images that Sharon is still alive and pregnant. Then Kara and Tyrol are doing FTL testing on it though a rader and downloading everything they can to see how they were able to have ammo, guns, and an FTL in one ship and its functions (I believe, can't remember exactly Y they ran the tests.)

I used this and maybe that is how they were able to construct an FTL for the Blackbird. I am not saying at all that your theory isn't true and not trying to attack you in anyway, I am just adding to it with my own opinion, tell me what you think.

spg_1983
January 12th, 2006, 08:54 AM
I'd actually suspect they developed the Blackbirds FTL capabilities not from a Viper at all, but from a Raptor. As we don't know what all is involved in FTL drives (outside requiring Tylium as a fuel source) we have no idea on the size of a small FTL drive. I would suspect it has to do with some kind of mass/jump ratio. IE the bigger the ship, the bigger the FTL has to be. The Blackbird is a small ship that has room for 1 occupant, doesn't appear to have major weapons capability like the fast and nasty Vipers, so doesn't need a jump drive the size of the Raptor. In addition, regular maintenance on Raptors would mean that Tyrol and his deck gang understand the inner and outer workings of FTL drives, so putting one on the Blackbird is well within the realms of believability. The Blackbird has no armor to protect it in combat, and I suspect that what few weapons are on the ship are for a very quick hit and run attack and an even quicker escape, like the mission planned for taking out the Resurrection ship. Less room for weapons = more room for an FTL drive.

Remember that Vipers were made for close combat support. They need what little room they have on their ships for carrying as much ordinance and ammo as possible, not for FTL. In regards to the cylon raiders having jump capabilities, cylons obviously are far more technologically advanced, the ships are small (small ship, small ftl drive) and they don't seem to have a 'scout class' like the Raptors in their fleet. All of the Cylon raiders are scouts. Thus, all have FTL.Oh I agree, I wasnt saying that there was an inconsistency, I was just pointing out that Vipers don't have FTL. It makes sense for The Laura to have FTL because what good is a stealth ship of it has to be launched from a mothersip that is close by. The raptors are not that much bigger really than a Viper, the Viper is just more compact and designed to be sleeker. The Raptor has a much larger inside area to accomadate the EW station and passengers, but the actual mass of both ships is probably close to the same. If the raptor can have FTL a Viper could to, if like you said they made room by taking away its weapons and ammo.

GALACTIC MYTH
January 12th, 2006, 09:20 AM
Oh I agree, I wasnt saying that there was an inconsistency, I was just pointing out that Vipers don't have FTL. It makes sense for The Laura to have FTL because what good is a stealth ship of it has to be launched from a mothersip that is close by. The raptors are not that much bigger really than a Viper, the Viper is just more compact and designed to be sleeker. The Raptor has a much larger inside area to accomadate the EW station and passengers, but the actual mass of both ships is probably close to the same. If the raptor can have FTL a Viper could to, if like you said they made room by taking away its weapons and ammo.


I do agree with the both of you I just wanted to add another possiblilty into the mix but the both of you guys (Speakfire & spg_1983) seem right on target (for nowuntil more is reveled) so I'll stay with your guys theory, because it makes alot of sence.

Speakfire
January 12th, 2006, 10:15 AM
I feel attacked!!... j/k hehe

I am not really sure why that one cylon raider seemed to toy with the colonials by jumping in and out, given Tyrol and crew time to study its FTL systems and capabilities. They say it was collecting data before it went on it's suicide run toward the BSG, but they aren't sure what data it was collecting before it was destroyed (or what data that it would have transmitted to the Cylons, for that matter).

Regarding getting images of Sharon and her baby being alive and well, I wonder if you may be getting two different episodes confused, in the episode Final Cut, 2 raiders jumped in and were able to transmit images of Sharon to the other cylons with the help of De'anna (Or however you spell it).

You're right though I think a viper could definitely be stripped down and have an FTL drive put into it, but to me it'd still be outdone on all levels by the Raptor, which has the ECO station and lots more data-collecting capabilities. Anyway right now they need vipers (and viper parts) to help protect the fleet.

Annnnywho. So back to the episode at hand... I'm dying to see how the whole fight plays out with the decoys and the Blackbird going in to take out the Resurrection ship and everything else. One more day!

apollo123
January 12th, 2006, 10:23 AM
actually I can say it wasn't a good strategic move. Her entire plan is poor strategy. One single ship, even with lots of spare parts, doesn't stand a chance. The fact that she would embark on this course shows that she has cracked.

Wow ok i just realized it's really difficult to have an argument within a forum. :)

Ok, so let's get this straight. I'm not trying to defend her actions. I think she's just as crazy and immoral as everyone else does.

I am merely speaking about her strategy for staying and fighting. I don't care whether or not staying and fighting is a good strategy. In fact, I know that it's not a sane strategy because like Roslyn told Adama, the war is over and they need to run and repopulate the human race. I agree completely with that logic.

The only point that I'm trying to get across is whether or not stripping the civilian ship was a good strategy given the fact that they are staying and fighting. So given that (yes insane) mission, stripping the civilian was probably the best possible move.

I think people are just too quick to write her off as a complete madwoman. Is she mad? Yes, she is. But I think there's logic behind her madness.

apollo123
January 12th, 2006, 10:41 AM
But by killing the people she's ostensibly winning the colonies back for?
If that sounds like a good and rational argument to her, then I'd suggest she's lost it.
Also, Pegasus CANNOT win alone.It needs support,. It needs to be resupplied, and often. Galactica is resupplied by refinery and food ships in the colonial fleet.
Pegasus, by abandoning them, has NO guarantee of resupply when it needs it.
If Cain's goal is to win back the colonies, then she should have kept the ships to resupply Pegasus.


You've forgotten the fact that Adama is trying to run away from the Cylons, not confront them. They jump everytime the Cylons come near them while Cain fights them head on. So yes keeping civilian ships around helps Galactica, but it would only hinder Pegasus' mission.



But, to me, given, as I and others have said, her first duty a military officer was protection of civilians, she should have revised her decision to fight to the death.
That she didn't means she is giving up the principles she claims to hold dear.
Same with her treatment of Roslin.


See my other response. But yes, I agree with you that she's not a nice person and that she should revised her decision to fight to the death. That's not my argument, never was. Also, this is not really relevant either, but I don't recall the show ever stating what "the first duty of a military officer" is or what "principles Cain holds dear".

GALACTIC MYTH
January 12th, 2006, 01:07 PM
Ok this thing with Cain, was it a good logical action to strip the ships for supplies? Yes, if she was going to come back and check on the civilian fleet and protect them.

But since Cain killed 2 families (wich implies children) to force whoever wouldn't come with the fleet then did, makes her no better then the cylons they are the same. Also Cain wants to go back to Capricca to help the human race, why would she want to start populating the colonies when she kills families. Please explain this to me.

Oh just a random statement "I have to wait until Monday to see part 2" so note spoilers if you've seen it and are still posting here. Please....

spg_1983
January 12th, 2006, 01:17 PM
Wow ok i just realized it's really difficult to have an argument within a forum. :)

Ok, so let's get this straight. I'm not trying to defend her actions. I think she's just as crazy and immoral as everyone else does.

I am merely speaking about her strategy for staying and fighting. I don't care whether or not staying and fighting is a good strategy. In fact, I know that it's not a sane strategy because like Roslyn told Adama, the war is over and they need to run and repopulate the human race. I agree completely with that logic.

The only point that I'm trying to get across is whether or not stripping the civilian ship was a good strategy given the fact that they are staying and fighting. So given that (yes insane) mission, stripping the civilian was probably the best possible move.

I think people are just too quick to write her off as a complete madwoman. Is she mad? Yes, she is. But I think there's logic behind her madness.yes i get what you are saying, but even in that context of the stratedgy of staying and fighting, stripping the civilian fleet and leaving them was still poor stratedgy. Basiclly she just put all her eggs in one basket that doesnt have a chance in hell of succeeding in its mission. She is incredibly out numbered and even being civilians those were potential reinforcements. Lets say she hadnt met up with Galactica and Co. She begins her hit and run war against the cylons. She causes some damage each time but at the same time she is going to be taking damage. And losing crew members. All her spare parts are stored on board, she has no safe haven to retreat to to lick her wounds. How long would she have to stop and repair after a battle before the cylons follow if they dont have a secure base? Each time the ship is damaged it is going to consume spare parts, and plus there is also the possibility of losing spare parts from damage incurred to the ship during fights. Before long, even if they manage to get away each time the ship is going to be less and less operative as the crew dimishes. Eventually it will reach the point where the ship will be unable to continue and the cylons will destroy them.

Now a viable stratedgy for her chosen course of action would be very different. You don't abandon the civillian fleet, you escort them someplace safe and secure to establish a base from which to mount your guerilla war. You conscript civillians into service and leave some trained officers at the base to run things and teach the civillians. If possible you find another depot like Ragnar and raid it. Convert the civillian ships or just augment them to make them better (Fisk did say that some of the civilian ships were armed and they stripped the weapons from them). Your base starts re-establishing a tech base to work with and if the location was chosen properly starts harvesting raw materials. You conduct a snatch and grab campaign on shipyards and refineries and such to gather technological assest to further establish a tech base. You scout the 12 colonies and get a feel for the cylons deployment and what assets are intact. Then you conduct your campaign of attacks. Thats what a stratedgy is. Cain has no stratedgy, she just wants to fight and kill.

Lightsabre
January 12th, 2006, 01:52 PM
yes i get what you are saying, but even in that context of the stratedgy of staying and fighting, stripping the civilian fleet and leaving them was still poor stratedgy. Basiclly she just put all her eggs in one basket that doesnt have a chance in hell of succeeding in its mission. She is incredibly out numbered and even being civilians those were potential reinforcements. Lets say she hadnt met up with Galactica and Co. She begins her hit and run war against the cylons. She causes some damage each time but at the same time she is going to be taking damage. And losing crew members. All her spare parts are stored on board, she has no safe haven to retreat to to lick her wounds. How long would she have to stop and repair after a battle before the cylons follow if they dont have a secure base? Each time the ship is damaged it is going to consume spare parts, and plus there is also the possibility of losing spare parts from damage incurred to the ship during fights. Before long, even if they manage to get away each time the ship is going to be less and less operative as the crew dimishes. Eventually it will reach the point where the ship will be unable to continue and the cylons will destroy them.

Exactly. Further, each time Cain suffers a loss in crew(and remember, she's got a mad on for executing people), she loses one of the people Apollo123 suggested could be used to start a new colony. In terms of that, each loss of life is far more damning than simply loss of a trained, skilled crew member.

Further, Cain had no knowledge of the survivors on Caprica before her encounter with the fleet. She thought all she had was on Pegasus.
That means her stated goal of recapturing the colonies was a lie.
She may win(very very unlikely) but humans would be dead either way.



Now a viable stratedgy for her chosen course of action would be very different. You don't abandon the civillian fleet, you escort them someplace safe and secure to establish a base from which to mount your guerilla war. You conscript civillians into service and leave some trained officers at the base to run things and teach the civillians. If possible you find another depot like Ragnar and raid it. Convert the civillian ships or just augment them to make them better (Fisk did say that some of the civilian ships were armed and they stripped the weapons from them). Your base starts re-establishing a tech base to work with and if the location was chosen properly starts harvesting raw materials. You conduct a snatch and grab campaign on shipyards and refineries and such to gather technological assest to further establish a tech base. You scout the 12 colonies and get a feel for the cylons deployment and what assets are intact. Then you conduct your campaign of attacks. Thats what a stratedgy is. Cain has no stratedgy, she just wants to fight and kill.
Agreed. Cain just wants to go out in a blaze of glory.

Lightsabre
January 12th, 2006, 01:57 PM
You've forgotten the fact that Adama is trying to run away from the Cylons, not confront them. They jump everytime the Cylons come near them while Cain fights them head on. So yes keeping civilian ships around helps Galactica, but it would only hinder Pegasus' mission.

No. actually I haven't.
And are you really trying to maintain that having a ready, portable source of food, fuel and ammo would be a hinderance to a ship fighting a guerilla war??
By keeping the ships, esp the families, Cain would not only gain the skills of the experts she needed, but give them more incentive to do their very best, as they would be saving their families.
At the moment, they KNOW their families are dead. Where's the incentive to do your best, to be inovative and creative?



See my other response. But yes, I agree with you that she's not a nice person and that she should revised her decision to fight to the death. That's not my argument, never was. Also, this is not really relevant either, but I don't recall the show ever stating what "the first duty of a military officer" is or what "principles Cain holds dear".

No, the show doesn't ever state the duties of an officer.
Militaries exist to protect civillians and my comments are made with that in mind.
As to Cain's principles, that's my interpretation of her. I'm making assumptions, using guesswork and such.
But if you want to say 'oh that's wrong cause it's never said in the show', well neither is a lot of what you are saying.

apollo123
January 12th, 2006, 03:14 PM
No, the show doesn't ever state the duties of an officer.
Militaries exist to protect civillians and my comments are made with that in mind.
As to Cain's principles, that's my interpretation of her. I'm making assumptions, using guesswork and such.
But if you want to say 'oh that's wrong cause it's never said in the show', well neither is a lot of what you are saying.

The only thing that I'm saying is that stripping the civilian ships is a good strategic move for winning the war with the cylons. The show has established the fact that Cain wants to win the war with the cylons. I don't think i'm making a misinterpretation about that.

However, you're talking about morality and duty, which is a completely different thing. And you're using your own interpretations of their code of morality and conduct to prove your arguments. Two different things.

spg_1983
January 12th, 2006, 03:28 PM
The only thing that I'm saying is that stripping the civilian ships is a good strategic move for winning the war with the cylons. The show has established the fact that Cain wants to win the war with the cylons. I don't think i'm making a misinterpretation about that.

However, you're talking about morality and duty, which is a completely different thing. And you're using your own interpretations of their code of morality and conduct to prove your arguments. Two different things.
No, see it isn't a good strategic move at all if her goal is to win the war with the cylons. It is a good move if yout strategy is to have no strategy and just cause as much destruction as possible before you are destroyed yourself. Thats the whole point of Cain's madness. She says she wants to win the war but she knows she can't, thats what made her mind snap. The fact that she survived with her ship intact, yet she failed in her duty to protect the colonies and she knows deep down that there is no hope to actually defeat the cylons and take back the colonies. This realization caused her mind to break and insanity has taken over. She hides her madness by saying she wants to take back the colonies, but in fact she just wants to cause pain and destruction and then die herself. There is no strategic value to be gained by slaughtering those civilians like that, but there is lots of strategic value in saving them, whether she intended to take back the colonies or not. Either way stripping them like that and leaving them to die was not a strategic move at all, it was pure madness.

Lightsabre
January 12th, 2006, 03:32 PM
The only thing that I'm saying is that stripping the civilian ships is a good strategic move for winning the war with the cylons. The show has established the fact that Cain wants to win the war with the cylons. I don't think i'm making a misinterpretation about that.

But the thing is, you haven't given any evidence to show this.
It allows Cain to resupply?
Keeping them allows Cain to resupply more than once.
It was a bad strategic move, for winning a war, because you cannot win a war with one ship, especially one that is outclassed.


However, you're talking about morality and duty, which is a completely different thing. And you're using your own interpretations of their code of morality and conduct to prove your arguments. Two different things.
I think Duty, esp is relevant here. Duty impacts on tactics and strategy, in that some actions may be the best strategic idea, but not allowed by duty
You are right tho, in that I'm using my interpretation of things from the show, to back my arguments.
While I still maintain those are the most likely, I cannot back that up 100%

Orion's Star
January 12th, 2006, 03:46 PM
I think Apollo has made it clear throughout the run of the show that the duty of a Colonial military officer is to protect the Constitution.

apollo123
January 12th, 2006, 04:12 PM
yes i get what you are saying, but even in that context of the stratedgy of staying and fighting, stripping the civilian fleet and leaving them was still poor stratedgy. Basiclly she just put all her eggs in one basket that doesnt have a chance in hell of succeeding in its mission. She is incredibly out numbered and even being civilians those were potential reinforcements. Lets say she hadnt met up with Galactica and Co. She begins her hit and run war against the cylons. She causes some damage each time but at the same time she is going to be taking damage. And losing crew members. All her spare parts are stored on board, she has no safe haven to retreat to to lick her wounds. How long would she have to stop and repair after a battle before the cylons follow if they dont have a secure base? Each time the ship is damaged it is going to consume spare parts, and plus there is also the possibility of losing spare parts from damage incurred to the ship during fights. Before long, even if they manage to get away each time the ship is going to be less and less operative as the crew dimishes. Eventually it will reach the point where the ship will be unable to continue and the cylons will destroy them.

Now a viable stratedgy for her chosen course of action would be very different. You don't abandon the civillian fleet, you escort them someplace safe and secure to establish a base from which to mount your guerilla war. You conscript civillians into service and leave some trained officers at the base to run things and teach the civillians. If possible you find another depot like Ragnar and raid it. Convert the civillian ships or just augment them to make them better (Fisk did say that some of the civilian ships were armed and they stripped the weapons from them). Your base starts re-establishing a tech base to work with and if the location was chosen properly starts harvesting raw materials. You conduct a snatch and grab campaign on shipyards and refineries and such to gather technological assest to further establish a tech base. You scout the 12 colonies and get a feel for the cylons deployment and what assets are intact. Then you conduct your campaign of attacks. Thats what a stratedgy is. Cain has no stratedgy, she just wants to fight and kill.

Ok now that argument I can buy. Thanks. :)

Speakfire
January 12th, 2006, 04:14 PM
That's a very good point. Judging from what he said in Bastille Day, every military officer apparently takes an oath to uphold the articles of colonization.

Lightsabre
January 12th, 2006, 04:19 PM
That's a very good point. Judging from what he said in Bastille Day, every military officer apparently takes an oath to uphold the articles of colonization.
Actually yes. So they do speak about the duties of an officer.
I resubmit my previous statement about Cain betraying the principles of the service.
I must temper that, tho, with the fact we've never read the Articles of Colonisation.

apollo123
January 12th, 2006, 04:20 PM
But the thing is, you haven't given any evidence to show this.
It allows Cain to resupply?
Keeping them allows Cain to resupply more than once.
It was a bad strategic move, for winning a war, because you cannot win a war with one ship, especially one that is outclassed.


Well I was pointing out that having a civilian ship following you around isn't exactly a good thing when you're going offensive. For Adama, it makes sense, but less so for Pegasus. Having a ship that has no weapons and little defensive capabilities is only going to hinder you in battle, unless you're going to use it purely as a decoy. spg_1983, however, does make a good point about how better she could've use the civilian ship without bringing it into battle with them.

Blue Banrigh
January 12th, 2006, 04:20 PM
Further, Cain had no knowledge of the survivors on Caprica before her encounter with the fleet. She thought all she had was on Pegasus.
That means her stated goal of recapturing the colonies was a lie.
She may win (very very unlikely) but humans would be dead either way.
She might not have known about the survivors but that doesn't mean she didn't plan to return to the colonies.

She wants to defeat/destroy the cylons to do that at some point she must oust them from their homes. Recapturing the colonies would have the added benefit of allowing them to resupply.

apollo123
January 12th, 2006, 04:25 PM
Actually yes. So they do speak about the duties of an officer.
I resubmit my previous statement about Cain betraying the principles of the service.
I must temper that, tho, with the fact we've never read the Articles of Colonisation.

I was just about to say, what exactly does the Articles of Colonization say? :)

Lightsabre
January 12th, 2006, 04:27 PM
Well I was pointing out that having a civilian ship following you around isn't exactly a good thing when you're going offensive. For Adama, it makes sense, but less so for Pegasus. Having a ship that has no weapons and little defensive capabilities is only going to hinder you in battle, unless you're going to use it purely as a decoy. spg_1983, however, does make a good point about how better she could've use the civilian ship without bringing it into battle with them.

You are 100% correct. Dragging a civillian ship into battle makes for bad, bad strategy.
However, not one of us ever advocated Cain taking her civ fleet into battle.
You have maintained that taking civillians was a bad move for Cain, but that statement is predicated on her taking them into battle.

Lightsabre
January 12th, 2006, 04:29 PM
She might not have known about the survivors but that doesn't mean she didn't plan to return to the colonies.

She wants to defeat/destroy the cylons to do that at some point she must oust them from their homes. Recapturing the colonies would have the added benefit of allowing them to resupply.

My point was that she loses crew members in each engagement.
As far as Cain knows, that small rag tag fleet she found was the last of humanity.
By turning her back on them, she effectively condemned the human race.
She may have planned to return, but to the best of her knowledge, everyone was dead.
So, she planned to defeat an unknown number of superior warships, then recolonise with the remenants of the crew of one ship?
Does that sound sane to anyone?

Lightsabre
January 12th, 2006, 04:31 PM
I was just about to say, what exactly does the Articles of Colonization say? :)
Well, there must be something in there about the Pres being commander in chief, since Roslin pulls Rank on Apollo in the mini.
Further, doesn't she tell Lee, and then Adama, that their duty is to safeguard the fleet, rather than kill Cylons??
I'll check on that later.

apollo123
January 12th, 2006, 04:59 PM
You are 100% correct. Dragging a civillian ship into battle makes for bad, bad strategy.
However, not one of us ever advocated Cain taking her civ fleet into battle.
You have maintained that taking civillians was a bad move for Cain, but that statement is predicated on her taking them into battle.

Well you said that Pegasus should take them along, which I took to mean that they would follow Pegasus much like the civilian fleet follows Galactica. Even if they don't deliberately take them into battle, having a defenseless ship following them while they are on the offensive and in constant threat of attack isn't a good thing. spg_1983 mentioned keeping them in a safe place, a home base, which is something that was only brought up recently in the discussion. :)

Blue Banrigh
January 12th, 2006, 05:46 PM
My point was that she loses crew members in each engagement.
As far as Cain knows, that small rag tag fleet she found was the last of humanity.
By turning her back on them, she effectively condemned the human race.
She may have planned to return, but to the best of her knowledge, everyone was dead.
So, she planned to defeat an unknown number of superior warships, then recolonise with the remenants of the crew of one ship?
Does that sound sane to anyone?
I'm not questioning her (in)sanity, I agree her perspective is somewhat skewed. I'm just saying I don't think she has recolonization in mind, she has made no mention of it so far.

Her one goal is to defeat the cylons (or at the very least making a last stand), that's it. Futile as it is trying to win back the colonies is a symbolic gesture.

So she'll lose a few crew members each engagement but in her mind she probably thinks she'll lose a lot more if she also has a civilian fleet to defend. By herself the Pegasus can pick and choose which battles she fights.

I don't think she has planned anything beyond the final battle. Like someone said before, much like the previous Cain she probably plans to go out in a blaze of glory.

Friday/Saturday yet?

Lightsabre
January 12th, 2006, 06:08 PM
Well you said that Pegasus should take them along, which I took to mean that they would follow Pegasus much like the civilian fleet follows Galactica. Even if they don't deliberately take them into battle, having a defenseless ship following them while they are on the offensive and in constant threat of attack isn't a good thing. spg_1983 mentioned keeping them in a safe place, a home base, which is something that was only brought up recently in the discussion. :)
Ah, sorry, I meant that Pegasus should escort them like BSG does to it's fleet.
This doesn't mean that the Pegasus couldn't go off on single strike missions, however.
Also, remember that some of the BSG fleet is armed, and so were some of Pegasus's.
The fleet doesn't HAVE to left at a base, even a point in space designated as a meeting place would work.
Either way, both are better ideas than stripping the ships.

LoneStar1836
January 12th, 2006, 09:32 PM
It was very close when it showed up on dradis.. that might have been a factor.That’s a possibility :), but I’m going to go with what Hatcheter said earlier. That Galactica picked up the communication between Starbuck and Apollo thus tripping the dradis.


In Flight of the Phoenix, she jumped away but then jumped back and closed in on Lee who was still pretty close to Galactica, yet she wasn’t detected.
LoneStar 1836: I just wanted to say, Kara was able to get so close to the resurrection ship because she turned of all her electronics off and just used the stability pedals, just like she did when test flying it with Lee (saw her turn off her helmet light in both episodes 209 flight of the Pheonix and 211 resurrection ship part 1 we saw her it the electronics off).Yeah, I did notice that she cut the engines after jumping to the Resurrection ship. :) But I figured that was to make her less noticeable, visually. But I guess electronic signals could give her away. I’m not on the up and up with how stealth technology works in detail other than the shape of the plane dictates how radar signals are bounced off the aircraft and/or you can have the plane designed with a skin that will absorb radar waves. The Blackbird sort of applies the first one in that is does have flat edges that deflect the signal elsewhere but I thought its main advantage was the carbon composite skin that I’m assuming absorbs the signal.


Where did it [Blackbird] get FTL from? Did they take it from one of the heavy raiders they have access to? (one that crashed port flight deck) (one that Sharon flew back)I just assumed it was the type of engins that Tyrol installed. He got those junk engins from a guy in the fleet that Tigh knew. Maybe they were already FTL capable.


Oh just a random statement "I have to wait until Monday to see part 2" so note spoilers if you've seen it and are still posting here. Please....That's actually a manditory forum rule. Any discussion of future episodes in a previous episode thread must be in SPOILER TAGS. [spoiler]text here[/ spoiler] (minus the space) And any discussion of the current season (S2) elsewhere on the board whether the eps have already aired or not are required to be tagged as well within a thread unless that thread has a spoiler warning in the title of the thread.

And poor you having to wait till Monday. :eek: Thank the gods that tomorrow is Friday. Yay! :D I've had my fill of the workday this week.... And yay! It's a holiday Monday. Thank you MLK, Jr.

somedude
January 14th, 2006, 07:07 PM
You are 100% correct. Dragging a civillian ship into battle makes for bad, bad strategy.
However, not one of us ever advocated Cain taking her civ fleet into battle.
You have maintained that taking civillians was a bad move for Cain, but that statement is predicated on her taking them into battle.

But even civvie ships have their uses, as Starbuck demonstrated in Season 1. They make for good decoys and Viper transporters.

Mr. Seven
January 16th, 2006, 09:44 PM
Yeah for Cain taking civilians with her was a bad idea.

Sure she could leave them at a "safe zone" and then jump --> attack --> then jump back.

"Fisk, where did we leave the civilians this time?"

GuyF
April 1st, 2006, 10:06 AM
Lordy this is KILLING me! I CAN'T believe that I've managed to miss RS1(211)!!!....
What are the odds in SOMEONE having a copy they would/could be willing to share?

SoulReaver
October 16th, 2006, 08:20 PM
on a question about Cain, is she really bad? she is only doing good for the future of the human race! the part where she shot the families in cold blood i don't agree on but taking parts from other ships and suppliers isn't humane where it must be done for the future of human life!golly gee - you're a strange one. the killing the families part was just one in a series of actions each more inexcusable than the previous:
1) stripping the ships & leaving them defenseless, instead of leaving those ships intact & taking them under her protection. That is not military procedure, that is piracy
2) refusing to allow the civilians onboard the Pegasus (that would have changed everything had she done so) - already (1) and (2) alone is tantamount to murder
3) drafting family men whilst leaving their families behind knowing full well that she was leaving those families to face a certain death (since she had the ships stripped, remember?)
4) murdering 2 of the families

clearly by these actions the writers meant to depict Cain for what she was, the epitome of evil. btw leaving the BSG story aside & regardless of context, whoever thinks such actions by a military officer can find even the vaguest semblance of justification should have their morality heads checked - assuming there's something left to check duh



on a more personal note & still leaving BSG aside, I dunno if such similar events have occurred in human military history - wouldn't be that surprised if that was the case - but if an officer who committed such actions were to fall in my grasp, then trust me he or she would take 2 weeks to suffer a very verrry slow, exceptionally & excrutiatingly painful demise, by my own hands (yeah I know it's wrong, screw that)
...on 2nd thought I think I'd keep that person alive as long as possible, Hell would be too good for such ppl
Same goes for the soldiers & subordinates who followed such orders (instead of having their leader arrested & tried for war crimes) - they ain't worth any better than the officer who issued those orders

Back40
October 18th, 2006, 08:14 PM
clearly by these actions the writers meant to depict Cain for what she was, the epitome of evil.

I agree with your points about Cain's actions, but I'm not sure about this conclusion. I don't necessarily think they meant to show her as the "epitomy of evil", but as extremely ruthless, a "take no prisoners" kind of commander who wouldn't let anything stand in the way of her single-mindedness. She'd declared war on the Cylons and saw it as perfectly legitimate to sacrifice everything else in the pursuit of that purpose, including civilian lives (not to mention shooting her own EXO in the head when he refused an order).

Sadly, this is NOT just a fictional occurrence, there is plenty of historical evidence of this happening, and such commanders are rarely branded as "evil". If they are successful (they win their battles), many of them end up branded as heroes....

SoulReaver
October 18th, 2006, 08:29 PM
I agree with your points about Cain's actions, but I'm not sure about this conclusion. I don't necessarily think they meant to show her as the "epitomy of evil", but as extremely ruthless, a "take no prisoners" kind of commander who wouldn't let anything stand in the way of her single-mindedness. She'd declared war on the Cylons and saw it as perfectly legitimate to sacrifice everything else in the pursuit of that purpose, including civilian lives (not to mention shooting her own EXO in the head when he refused an order).

Sadly, this is NOT just a fictional occurrence, there is plenty of historical evidence of this happening, and such commanders are rarely branded as "evil". If they are successful (they win their battles), many of them end up branded as heroes....well at least the XO knew what he signed up for (not that she was right to shoot him since she could have simply thrown him in the brig) - but the civilians...obviously the writers meant to depict her as a murderer - even from the "legal" PoV her actions were illegitimate since as a military officer it was her duty (cf. s3e02, the oath) to protect the 12 colonies in other words the people, which included that civilian fleet they stripped for parts & abandonned. So technically speaking she was a war criminal, even without the execution of the 2 families (which is an additional war crime)
What would have been (morally & legally) legitimate was to either 1) take command of the civilian fleet (best choice?) or 2) strip the civilian fleet for part to upgrade the Pegasus AND take all the civilians on board the Pegasus, in fact they would have been a hell of a lot safer inside a huge armored Battlestar than aboard those tiny civilian ships

but yu're right unfortunately when officers go rogue in times of war sometimes their government simply takes the "ends justify the means" attitude (though even this wouldn't have "justified" Cain abandonning & killing the civilians) and refuse to prosecute the officers & sometimes even reward them if the mission was successful. I suppose that's how in worked in Germany or USSR during WWII



mm...could Cain have been a cylon? :mckay:

rarocks24
October 18th, 2006, 08:35 PM
All the reports about Cain are well, as far as I know unconfirmed. I think something happened, definitely. But I think we're only getting one view of it. As to what Cain did...well, what other choice did she have? She didn't know Galactica survived and with a civilian fleet was retreating to Earth. And given the circumstances, I don't particularly blame her for having to make the call to draft them in the first place. How are they supposed to defend an entire civilian fleet when half the crew is dead?

Probably something happened and the situation just escalated out of her control. I also think that if the situation is as bad as they say, then she wouldn't have maintained control over Pegasus. I think finding Adama though and the fleet slowly allowed her to regain her sense of rationality.

SoulReaver
October 18th, 2006, 08:52 PM
it ain't the drafting alone that poses problem it's the drafting in conjunction with all the rest, like separating the draftees from the families and even worse, separating them from the families after the fleet had been left defenseless & crippled (so that's akin to murder since their chance of survival was next to zero) - basically she took every worst possible course of action at every step & piled aggravating circumstances upon aggravating circumstance, as though she deliberately wanted to kill off the civilians. the execution of the 2 families was just another "straw" but the camel's back had been broken long before, duh

If it wuz so hard to take over & protect an entire fleet (was it? yeah these were only civilian ships but they also had FTL plus some of them even had weapons, so they were at least better off than Adama's fleet) then like I said she could still have scavenged the civilian ships for parts, then drafted some civilians and taken the rest of the civilians on board under the protection of the Pegasus, that would've changed everything


btw as to the situation somehow escalating outa control I don't see how any "escalation" would have even remotely justified killin 2 families inc. women & kids - unless the children formed an armed commando & tried to take over the Pegasus or something -)

Back40
October 18th, 2006, 08:55 PM
All the reports about Cain are well, as far as I know unconfirmed. I think something happened, definitely. But I think we're only getting one view of it. As to what Cain did...well, what other choice did she have? She didn't know Galactica survived and with a civilian fleet was retreating to Earth. And given the circumstances, I don't particularly blame her for having to make the call to draft them in the first place. How are they supposed to defend an entire civilian fleet when half the crew is dead?

Probably something happened and the situation just escalated out of her control. I also think that if the situation is as bad as they say, then she wouldn't have maintained control over Pegasus. I think finding Adama though and the fleet slowly allowed her to regain her sense of rationality.

1) The reports are confirmed (read an interview with RDM posted somewhere where he confirmed that she HAD done everything she was accused of doing - sorry, can't remember where, if I find it, I'll post the link for you).

2) As to what choice she had, well, she could have chosen to do what the Galactica did and take the civvies with her, either on the Pegasus or in a small fleet.

3) Draft away, nothing wrong with that....until you kill their families if they resist (and why wouldn't they resist, once the civilian ships were stripped, they would have figured out that the civilian ships were going to be marooned and they were being forced to leave their families to certain death). OK, she didn't have enough crew to man the Pegasus to protect a civilian fleet BUT she did have enough crew to launch attacks on the Cylon fleet? Your logic escapes me here. :)

4) Yes, she would have maintained control. Read your history on the success of military dictators....and I think you can safely assume that after she shot her own EXO in the head for refusing an order, nobody else was going to stick their neck out.

Pity that she DIDN'T have a Laura Roslin to act as her conscience...then again, maybe not, she'd probably have airlocked her......

SoulReaver
October 18th, 2006, 09:17 PM
3) Draft away, nothing wrong with that....until you kill their families if they resist (and why wouldn't they resist, once the civilian ships were stripped, they would have figured out that the civilian ships were going to be marooned and they were being forced to leave their families to certain death). Exactly

as long as they took every civilian on board - come to think of it that solution would even have been better than dragging an entire fleet of unarmed/lightly armed civilian ships along, and the civvies would have been a lot safer onboard the Pegasus (heck I'll choose a Navy carrier bristling with guns over a whaling ship armed with a harpoon any time -)

basically
- leaving the civvy ships intact & taking the fleet under military command => perfectly legitimate, tactically questionable, OK at best
- stripping the civvy ships to upgrade the Pegasus, drafting some civvies & taking the rest of them onboard the Pegasus => perfectly legitimate & tactically wise
- stripping the civvy ships to upgrade the Pegasus, drafting some civvies & abandoning the rest to a doomed fate => murder


btw I'm surprised the civilian fleet didn't resist (apparently they didn't) when the Pegasus crew wanted to strip them, especially when they knew they'd be left stranded
unless the admiral tricked them say by promising to take them onboard once the Pegasus had all the parts & equipment (the civvies must have been overjoyed at that moment) then at the last moment drafted a handful of civvies & abandonned the rest of them & their crippled fleet (at which point the "overjoy" turned into nightmare) :mckay:

I'd also have expected those family men who were drafted to take their revenge on the admiral or something, hell she condemned their families to a certain death yet Laird seemed to take it pretty good

The Pegasus crew wuz kinda reminiscent of the Mirror Universe in Star Trek ToS :o

Back40
October 18th, 2006, 09:26 PM
I'd also have expected those family men who were drafted to take their revenge on the admiral or something, hell she condemned their families to a certain death yet Laird seemed to take it pretty good

The Pegasus crew wuz kinda reminiscent of the Mirror Universe in Star Trek ToS :o

I guess it comes down to whether they wanted to live after their families were abandoned. Liard seems to have "adjusted", at least on the surface, but he might be the exception. You'll have noticed that the officers were under arms on the Pegasus all the time, and there were marines posted everywhere, particularly outside CIC. Maybe there was a good reason for this......

SoulReaver
October 18th, 2006, 09:35 PM
I guess it comes down to whether they wanted to live after their families were abandoned. Liard seems to have "adjusted", at least on the surface, but he might be the exception. You'll have noticed that the officers were under arms on the Pegasus all the time, and there were marines posted everywhere, particularly outside CIC. Maybe there was a good reason for this......not just abandonned - abandonned to a hopeless fate (ships stripped)
personally the only reason I'd wanna live after that (assuming I didn't resist drafting, try to take a marine's gun & kill as many marines as I could before being arrested or gunned down, which is also something I may have done) would be to live to take revenge on the person responsible for this...

anyway the simple fact that they were draftees (thus part of the crew) would have made it easier for them to kill the admiral, after all when you draft a person you're not just taking them onboard your ship since you're also giving them some access to the ship, this implies a significant amount of trust - Laird for example had access to armed fighter ships! For example a drafted officer could ask to speak to the admiral about some technical issue & then slit her throat with a canteen knife (OK he might be shot on the spot if there were marines around, but still
) etc.


btw Laird did look kinda weirdo don't u think? not emotionally shattered or anything, just...odd

SoulReaver
October 18th, 2006, 09:43 PM
also Gina (a known cylon prisoner!) had access to Cain's quarters pretty easily, duh

Back40
October 18th, 2006, 09:44 PM
For example a drafted officer could ask to speak to the admiral about some technical issue & then slit her throat with a canteen knife (OK he might be shot on the spot if there were marines around, but still) etc.

btw Laird did look kinda weirdo don't u think? not emotionally shattered or anything, just...odd

Ten bucks says the Admiral knew how to use that cannon she carried too.... :)

He looks shell-shocked....that's why I put "adjusted" in quotes - I get the feeling he hasn't adjusted at all, I think he's just going through the motions of living. Wouldn't be surprised to find out his family was one of the two that were executed....

Back40
October 18th, 2006, 09:46 PM
also Gina (a known cylon prisoner!) had access to Cain's quarters pretty easily, duh

Snagged the ID card/door card off the marine who's neck she snapped....

SoulReaver
October 18th, 2006, 09:50 PM
Ten bucks says the Admiral knew how to use that cannon she carried too.... :)

He looks shell-shocked....that's why I put "adjusted" in quotes - I get the feeling he hasn't adjusted at all, I think he's just going through the motions of living. Wouldn't be surprised to find out his family was one of the two that were executed....hundred bucks a tiny knife could do it's deadly job before she could draw & fire :cool:

u mean Laird would've accepted to come along even after they were executed? wtf, if so he is weird...I mean weirder than weird...either that, or plotted revenge but we'll never know

besides Laird seemed quite devoted to his work, almost enthusiastic...way too enthusiastic for someone under "shock"...that's the impression I got anyway...



The way the XO said it I reckoned the entire families were executed, that included those men who refused to come along - like Cain wanting to set an example to the remaining selectees

SoulReaver
October 18th, 2006, 09:54 PM
Snagged the ID card/door card off the marine who's neck she snapped....OK so that's the key to the admiral's door...and still made it from the brig, through that huge battlestar (I doubt officers' quarters are next to the brigs, let aone high ranking ones) all the way to the admiral's door undetected ?!



guess the crew musta been "celebrating" a little too much, as Adama put it :o

MB.Eddie
November 10th, 2006, 09:33 AM
Well the steath ship certainly worked. Got bloody close to the Ressurection ship to get those good pics. Speaking of which that Ressurection ship was a nice, inovative idea by the writers. Explains alot.

Well not that much else happened this ep, other than building up the tension. Pegasus's Six wanting to die for good was interesting. Cant say i blame it/her. Adama and the Admiral using their agents to kill the other will no doubt be interesting next ep.

Professor_S
June 6th, 2011, 07:11 PM
"I am a friendly! Ok! We're all friendlies! So lets just... be friendly!!" :lol: Gotta love Starbuck :D

Was anyone else amused by Adama's brooding "I wouldn't count on that" and Roslin's patronizing scoff in the initial scene on Colonial One? Chilling scene between Roslin and Adama afterwards though... the line between our protagonists and Cain grows thinner. No doubt that was the whole idea. Life happens in the gray areas - I appreciate a show that deals in them as well. It makes the protagonists more believable to see them struggle with moral decisions like this, rather than to quickly and easily make the right decision. What's more, it's awesome to be faced with a genuinely morally ambiguous decision; after everything we've learned about Cain and her ways at this point, it makes us wonder whether we would do the same thing.

Tricia Helfer. Outstanding performance!! To go from playing Head Six to Gina (do we know that's her name yet?) and back again.... wow.

Ahhh! The introduction of the "Roslin and Adama" theme. Beautiful. The scene on Colonial One is so lovely. And EJO's acting instincts, with that subtle little wipe of a tear - just brilliant.

Dang! The intercutting in that last scene really amped up the tension. And again, the mirroring showed us the thin line between protagonist and antagonist... awesome cliff-hanger!