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GateWorld
January 2nd, 2006, 07:20 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s9/912.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/graphics/912.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888">SG-1 SEASON NINE</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s9/912.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none"><B>COLLATERAL DAMAGE</B></A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 912</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
Colonel Mitchell stands falsely accused of murder -- but he remembers committing it, thanks to technology that grafts memories into someone else's mind.

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s9/912.shtml">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B>
SPOILERS! PHOTOS! AND MORE!</FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

shiznaw
January 13th, 2006, 05:18 PM
spolier: The show starts out with a flashback of Col. Mitch rolling on the bed in a hazy state while experiencing physical reactions to relapsed images of a brunnette woman laying on the floor in a pool of blood on a alien world. The entire episode centers around the possibility of implanting "false images" or memories inside another's head. The concept of transposing memory from one to another based upon Goa'uld Technology is an interesting

After the violent images are shown of killing this woman, we are taken back to the point at which the Alien-World Scientists are introducing the memory transferrence technology to the SG-1.

Lt. Colonel Ryu Gaia
January 13th, 2006, 05:46 PM
I'm watching, and I've got to say, this is the most solid Season 9 episode so far. It's not like any other episode of SG-1, it's a sample of a true stand-alones that we can expect, and it's truly very good.

Gargen
January 13th, 2006, 05:47 PM
Not one of the best episodes actaully i didn't like it all and it was very predictable. The one good thing was it does develop mitchells character a bit more

prion
January 13th, 2006, 06:00 PM
Not one of the best episodes actaully i didn't like it all and it was very predictable. The one good thing was it does develop mitchells character a bit more

Okay, basic ripoff of a Star trek Voyager episode which probably ripped off something else, but with an interesting twist at the end, and some good backstory on Mitchell which (please excuse me while I diverge over to SGA for a second - WHY can't they do the same for Sheppard??? - rant over).

But overall, decent for a remake and I like the Mitchell stuff.

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
January 13th, 2006, 06:03 PM
It was an okay ep. Love Walter and the medical babble when he gave Landry, Lam's report. I give it a **.

AGateFan
January 13th, 2006, 06:05 PM
Ok,
Heres my review… made a point of keeping my thoughts through the show like some others sometimes do. So here we go.

Please enough with the kissing already.
I do like the basic concept of actually reusing the goa’uld memory recall device.
And a look at an Asgard protected planet that has advanced is cool.

It was pretty obvious what was happening though… how fast do they figure it out… fast, good job Daniel. Sam and Teal’c didn’t even blink so they knew to.

There’s a Kinsey on every planet, eh?
Mitchell makes the right decision; you just don’t let murders go free if you can stop it.
Landry gave in really fast, but it’s a TV show and at least no one had to whine to him.

Good guy alien scientist figured it out too, good for them…. Unless they are building our Trust…..hmmmmmmm

Good acting by all parties even the bit part scientist.

Lots of Mitchell flashbacks.
Dad was a test pilot who lost both legs… irony

Hah, another suspect…. Maybe not eeevvvviiillll military… I will like that a lot.

So they are turning Walter into a n00b now? No bad, bad, bad.

Doh, nice shot, too bad it wasn’t the bad guys, real nice special effects…

They make the fake technology seem real… see that’s some good writing and acting.

Uh,ho Kinsey guy is making himself a suspect again….

And the ex is pretty dedicated to the resolution but maybe he is framing someone else.

Carter and Teal’c still don’t have much to do. Daniel only has a few lines…but that’s not really a hit on this ep since it is clearly a Mitchell character study ep and done much, much better then Babylon. I feel actual concern for him this time and the team is also showing the concern (maybe that’s why I feel it).

Ahhhh, nice…. Unless it’s a frame job too….

They erased the memories…wait B5 did that!!!! But then its just a really cool idea so I will let that homage go (assuming they even knew they did it on B5, plus on B5 it was an actual punishment since they made the guys dedicated public servants)

Nice episode, I liked it…Great Job Joe and Paul !!!!! See I can say positive stuff too if it I like it

Kilharae
January 13th, 2006, 06:05 PM
I personally thought it was a great episode. I was almost pissed at it for being too predictable until I was proven utterly wrong. No one could have predicted that. And that face in the mirror thing was just creepy. Love the back story with Cam too. Tough thing to have to happen to a person. I'll give it a 9 out of 10... Only episode to ever get a 10 out of 10 in my book was Lost City (part 2).

Johnquixote
January 13th, 2006, 06:07 PM
Very strong ep, very good. I liked it alot.
Great Mitchell backstory.
BB pulls off some great acting.
I liked the first cg shot of the city at night alot, very nice.
First standalone no mention of Ori offworld ep!
Ripple Effect preview.

rac76
January 13th, 2006, 06:07 PM
I thought this was good..a bit dark, but enjoyable. I guess the who did it a few seconds before it was revealed. Prion, now I remember the episode of Star Trek TNG, that was one of my faves. I did miss about the first 15 minutes because my daughter was crying in my ear, so I missed what they were talking about. My daughter is asleep now, she doesn't feel good. I'll just watch it again at 11 o'clock.

Quick Question: who is Jeff Upton? They had a in memoriam for him at the end of the show. I'm just wondering who that is.

edit to correct the name.

Dani347
January 13th, 2006, 06:09 PM
Not as good as some episodes this season, but a vast improvement over last week.


Okay, first the nitpicks. I don't usually see a lot of Jack in Mitchell, but early on, some of the things he said did seem rather Jackish. I didn't like Daniel's line about having to prove guilt on Earth, because it seemed to be just put in there for the punch line - "I know we're not on Earth." And, I wish thye could have gotten the plot going without the "romance" angle.

Nice performance by BB. Nice angst;) Except I'm still confused. What did he remember? I don't mean about his dad. I got that. But, what happened in the memory that made him almost quit the air force?

Kilharae
January 13th, 2006, 06:11 PM
In responce to Gargen... he posted his message before the episode was even over... and I'm guessing before the twist was revealed... Bad form dude, at least watch it in it's entirety before calling it bad and predictable.

shiznaw
January 13th, 2006, 06:12 PM
Very strong ep, very good. I liked it alot.
Great Mitchell backstory.
BB pulls off some great acting.
I liked the first cg shot of the city at night alot, very nice.
First standalone no mention of Ori offworld ep!
Ripple Effect preview.

Thank GOD no ORI!! Do you believe that the Mallozzi is beginning to understand the value of developing SG on its own without having to peg its existence to the ORi?

EDIT: The Kirk Syndrome is having its effect on the validity of the show, but I am quite satisfied with the storyline and the plot. I have no major complaints....

rnwhocares
January 13th, 2006, 06:12 PM
Walter was the best part of the show. This show s***ed!!

kharn the betrayer
January 13th, 2006, 06:12 PM
I have mixed feelings on this ep..

Pros:
-Cam gets some back story O_O.. now why cant Sheppard get some to... considering we have gone 2 seasons and still know just about nothing

-The twist... I was like OMG it's so damn obvious its the evil senator guy(or what ever he was..) and then the real culprit getting his memory screwed with AGAIN....

-No Ori (though they are the main villans I would like a break from them ever once and a while >.>)

Con:
-Cam just had to fall for the sexy alien chick didnt he >.> even Daniel made a pass about this when he, sam and Teac went over to Cam at the party >.>

id give this 3/5

kazbaby
January 13th, 2006, 06:13 PM
Okay, basic ripoff of a Star trek TNG episode which probably ripped off something else, but with an interesting twist at the end, and some good backstory on Mitchell which (please excuse me while I diverge over to SGA for a second - WHY can't they do the same for Sheppard??? - rant over).



There are no original stories, only interpretations of them. Predictable would have been having Atherton be the bad guy. Personally, I was expecting it to be Amuro. :D


This has quickly become one of my favorite episode of the season.

Johnquixote
January 13th, 2006, 06:13 PM
Nice performance by BB. Nice angst;) Except I'm still confused. What did he remember? I don't mean about his dad. I got that. But, what happened in the memory that made him almost quit the air force?
He was on a mission to kill a target, the intel said the target was in the convoy, he fired. Suddenly they say they're wrong. He discusses it with his CO at the time, it was a convoy of refugees, the target wasn't on there.

LaCroix
January 13th, 2006, 06:18 PM
The good:
I liked the backstory on Mitchell with his Father. It served as a frame of reference to get to know him.


The bad:

Retconning already

From Avalon:
LANDRY: well your service record is impeccable Mitchell. What's wrong with you? *drops file.*

MITCHELL: sir?

LANDRY: Nobody's perfect. Everyone has some kind of character flaw. What's yours?

Was that shot with the missile firing on the refugees a mis-step, mistake?

Since Prion has mentioned Star Trek NG here's a few more:

Minority Report.

Strange Days.

Brainstorm.

And a recycled Beneath The Surface.

AGateFan
January 13th, 2006, 06:20 PM
Not as good as some episodes this season, but a vast improvement over last week.


Okay, first the nitpicks. I don't usually see a lot of Jack in Mitchell, but early on, some of the things he said did seem rather Jackish. I didn't like Daniel's line about having to prove guilt on Earth, because it seemed to be just put in there for the punch line - "I know we're not on Earth." And, I wish thye could have gotten the plot going without the "romance" angle.

Nice performance by BB. Nice angst;) Except I'm still confused. What did he remember? I don't mean about his dad. I got that. But, what happened in the memory that made him almost quit the air force?
He was involved in a "Friendly fire" incident where he accidently bombed a bunch of refugees.

shiznaw
January 13th, 2006, 06:20 PM
I have mixed feelings on this ep..

Pros:
-Cam gets some back story O_O.. now why cant Sheppard get some to... considering we have gone 2 seasons and still know just about nothing

-The twist... I was like OMG it's so damn obvious its the evil senator guy(or what ever he was..) and then the real culprit getting his memory screwed with AGAIN....

-No Ori (though they are the main villans I would like a break from them ever once and a while >.>)

Con:
-Cam just had to fall for the sexy alien chick didnt he >.> even Daniel made a pass about this when he, sam and Teac went over to Cam at the party >.>

id give this 3/5

I agree that the ending had a delightful unexpected twist.
Let's just all ban together against the "kirking syndrome". Does anyone have a link to that Thread posted here at GW?

Dani347
January 13th, 2006, 06:24 PM
He was on a mission to kill a target, the intel said the target was in the convoy, he fired. Suddenly they say they're wrong. He discusses it with his CO at the time, it was a convoy of refugees, the target wasn't on there.


Thanks. So, he killed innocent people. Now, if they could just incorporate that into his personality. I mean, now we know it happened to him. We know it effected him then. How does that experience color who he is now? That could add some shading. Nothing heavy, just stuff to weave into episodes.

I don't really mind that there wasn't anything specific or unique that the others were doing. This was a definite Mitchell episode, but I still got the sense that the others were a part of it. I do want team episodes as well.

I also don't mind that it isn't completely original. What is? It didn't strike me as derivative. I mean, I knew the concept had been done before (although I don't recall the Star Trek episode) but it didn't stand out to me as a copy.

Johnquixote
January 13th, 2006, 06:25 PM
Retconning already

From Avalon:
LANDRY: well your service record is impeccable Mitchell. What's wrong with you? *drops file.*

MITCHELL: sir?

LANDRY: Nobody's perfect. Everyone has some kind of character flaw. What's yours?

Was that shot with the missile firing on the refugees a mis-step, mistake?

Good point. But he successfully did what he was told, and didn't take it in stride. Maybe Landry was saying Mitchell himself has a perfect record, the intel was the problem.

BigGator5
January 13th, 2006, 06:26 PM
This goes to prove that you don't need action to have a good story.

I don't know why you guys don't like the "kirking syndrome" thing, I love it!

http://forum.gateworld.net/images/gw_icons/arrow1.gif 9/9

Johnquixote
January 13th, 2006, 06:27 PM
I also don't mind that it isn't completely original. What is? It didn't strike me as derivative. I mean, I knew the concept had been done before (although I don't recall the Star Trek episode) but it didn't stand out to me as a copy.
Not once during the episode do I think about Minority Report or anything with similiar storyline. You're all just too analitical methinks, I don't mind cliche or recycled, as long as its got its own flare.

Dani347
January 13th, 2006, 06:33 PM
Well, I never saw Minority Report, or Strange Days, or the other one. And, only saw a basic connection (false memories) to Beneath the Surface. Mitchell knew who he was, and knew that the memories were false.

nccjones
January 13th, 2006, 06:46 PM
Ok...this was aweful! How many times do we have to learn about Mitchell's past through flashbacks?

Oh, and can I say deja vu??? This was Voyager all over again, but I felt more for Tom Paris than I did Mitchell.

Did anyone else catch the major slam to Daniel in the conference room? First Mitchell slams Daniel then the Landry backs up Mitchell and pretty much puts Daniel in his place.

Then the camera shaking all over the place. I don't watch BG (since I'm a fan of the original and refuse to watch the new one), but I've seen enough of the commercials to know that they like to do the motion camera thing and I don't like it for SG1.

Right now I'm watching Atlantis and it's way better (I loved Rodney's "Conan and Xena" comment).

I also found it odd that Mitchell was so willing to pull strings for this girl. And then go off with her. Man, I'm praying he's not some Kirk wannabe. (Even though I loved Kirk).

NearlyCircular
January 13th, 2006, 06:47 PM
Just a nit pick, but once they knew that Cam didn’t do it, shouldn’t they have been concentrating on the only people with the expertise to implant the memories? They made a big deal about there only being a few people capable of doing this, so why not check them out right away? Oh, right, then the show would have been over in 20 minutes, and they needed to get more of Cam’s backstory in. Sorry, my bad for bringing up logic.;)

NC

majorsal
January 13th, 2006, 06:54 PM
can i ask one thing? does he pull any one-liners in this ep?




sally :)

Dani347
January 13th, 2006, 06:56 PM
I believe there was a quip or two early on, that jarred me, but he got serious pretty fast. Other than that, the biggest problem I had with him was the "Kirking" plot device.

Seshat
January 13th, 2006, 06:56 PM
I agree that the ending had a delightful unexpected twist.
Let's just all ban together against the "kirking syndrome". Does anyone have a link to that Thread posted here at GW? I liked the unexpected twist at the end, too. :) That is, if you mean the final erasure, as who actually killed her was apparent to me as soon as she was murdered. :(

LOL, I immediately thought of Tom Paris and the implanted memories and the murder HE didn't commit in ST:Voyager. :D (Hey, AGateFan, let's duke it out over whether the plot more resembled B5 or ST:Voyager! LOL :D :D )

I liked the "dad" bits because we FINALLY got to learn something about Cam's past. Overall I'd say it was the best ep so far this season. :)

ShardsofGlass
January 13th, 2006, 06:59 PM
The "kirking" criticism kills me. So, because Kirk slept around a lot, no character is ever allowed to have a bit of romance in a Scifi show?! Sheesh. Poor Cam. I bet he hasn't been with a girl in a long time, and the time he meets someone nice, she's murdered! I wouldn't call that "kirking"!

ShimmeringStar
January 13th, 2006, 07:02 PM
Okay what did I like?

Cam has more than just throwaway clich&#233; lines. Finally!
They went through the gate to get somewhere even if we didn’t get see it. (Yay! The big shiny spinning round circle still works! ;):D)
It was an episode much closer to capturing the spirit of the original, pre-s9 SG than we’ve seen all season.
GO WALTER! :D It has been wonderful to see Walter given more scenes and dialogue this season. Hey we need some Walter smileys here!
This kind of episode was a kinder, gentler and way more effective way to introduce us to Cam, a heck of a lot better than that stuff we got bludgeoned with the first couple eps of this season. Kudos for a tying in the flashback backhistory so much better in this one.
I look forward to Ripple Effect and hope it lives up to some of the spoilers.


Concerns:

Speaking of bludgeoning a victim – wow - perhaps those scenes repeated too much. We get it, we get it, we get it. After two repeats of the scenes we know what Cam saw happen to the doctor. Third time and thereafter – do we have to keep seeing it? Was it a time filler?
The story arc seemed too familiar, although I do give points for the way the actor portraying the general came across - you were still guessing at the end if the dear General was really the killer and was just conveniently wiping the mind of his brilliant scientists and anyone else in his path.
Ummmm…… anyone else have an issue with Cam moseying off to ‘get it on’ with a local during the ‘diplomatic’ part of their mission? *coughs* Is this The New Diplomacy? *coughs* I hope it’s not the precedent for future seasons – PTB, please don’t whore Cam out that way if you do get another season or two out of the franchise, please... I guess I’d assume SG1 (or any other team off-world for whatever the reason) is ‘still on the clock’ acting as official emissaries of Earth until they’re back at base & that intimate relations with locals is amongst the no-no's. I can’t seem to remember when were we ever shown SG1 off-world messing around with the local men/women - and alien influences a la Brief Candle, Need, etc. don’t count, nor would A Hundred Days. Yes, yes, I know it was there to push the whole plot arc in motion, but ummm… maybe SG1 isn’t such family fare anymore and needs to be moved up to the 9 o’clock hour and put SG:A on at 8?
And I still get the feeling that the rest of the team are just cardboard cutouts that are moved around to deliver narrative where needed… I don’t know, the sense of urgency that accompanied the early eps of the series wasn’t there. Yeah, we see the rest of the team going back to base, we see them talking, but what are they really *doing*? Again the feeling of urgency and the concern that maybe Cam might not make it back (for me) wasn’t there.

Seshat
January 13th, 2006, 07:02 PM
Not once during the episode do I think about Minority Report or anything with similiar storyline. You're all just too analitical methinks, I don't mind cliche or recycled, as long as its got its own flare.
Well, the storyline was certainly nothing new, as it's been used in about five different scifi shows that I can think of, but I'm not going to knock them for re-imagining it their own way, they did a nice turn on an old theme. Plus the team interaction seemed a little more relaxed and comfortable to me this ep.

BigGator5
January 13th, 2006, 07:02 PM
The "kirking" criticism kills me. So, because Kirk slept around a lot, no character is ever allowed to have a bit of romance in a Scifi show?! Sheesh. Poor Cam. I bet he hasn't been with a girl in a long time, and the time he meets someone nice, she's murdered! I wouldn't call that "kirking"!

Agreed on both points...

Long Live Kirk!!

*Then the Sci-Fi fans died in massive numbers from the following battle...*

Dani347
January 13th, 2006, 07:06 PM
But, it wasn't romance. It was just contrived to further the plot. I don't think he's ever going to think about her again, he didn't have time to form a connection, they share no bond. I mean, they could have done it some other way to establish him being implanted with the memories. That just seemed unimaginative.

And, I just don't care how long any of them have been with someone. It's not important to me. If I never saw any of them with a one time character romance of the week or a longer term partner, I would be fine.

Now, did they imply that Mitchell had been married, or that he had been in a relationship where his job got in the way? He said he understood the victim's (heck, I don't even remember her name) problems in that area.

AGateFan
January 13th, 2006, 07:09 PM
I believe there was a quip or two early on, that jarred me, but he got serious pretty fast. Other than that, the biggest problem I had with him was the "Kirking" plot device.
yep, besides the kirking I thought the ep was a good one for Mitchell. I thought the quip or two early were on the appropriate side and he did stay serious when it was serious.

Dromag67
January 13th, 2006, 07:10 PM
Pros:
A Great stand-alone episode.
Nice storyline twists all throughout it.
I figured the Kinsey-esque guy did it, but I was wrong.
Great character building episode for Cam, nice to see some background, now Mitchell has more background Sheppard.

Cons:
Kirking is getting annoying.
No one for Teal'c to beat up.

Dani347
January 13th, 2006, 07:10 PM
It wasn't the act of quipping, or the placement (much more realistic than the "comedy" last week) but they did seem too Jack-like to me.

Seshat
January 13th, 2006, 07:11 PM
The "kirking" criticism kills me. So, because Kirk slept around a lot, no character is ever allowed to have a bit of romance in a Scifi show?! Sheesh. Poor Cam. I bet he hasn't been with a girl in a long time, and the time he meets someone nice, she's murdered! I wouldn't call that "kirking"! "Kirking" refers to the overused concept of one-time relationships with "alien" women as a feature of many storylines, discussed at length elsewhere on this forum, especially as it pertains to Shep. It's okay if you don't see it with Cam (and others do). :)

All I can say is that space must be a very sexy place. :rolleyes: No wonder so many folks want to be on elite SG teams. :P

Dani347
January 13th, 2006, 07:17 PM
All I can say is that space must be a very sexy place. :rolleyes: No wonder so many folks want to be on elite SG teams. :P

*snort*:D

shiznaw
January 13th, 2006, 07:17 PM
can i ask one thing? does he pull any one-liners in this ep?
sally :)

Remarkably, Mitch's character had displayed greater depth than just employing one liners. Hell, and this is coming from a vocal critic of both Mitch and VAla.

thorshammer
January 13th, 2006, 07:18 PM
This ep was totally predictable. The only thing was that her husband was the one that killed her but the other stuff I figured out pretty quick. The actor that plays Cameron as a kid didn't look anything, anything like Cameron as an adult. Although it was cool that we got some backstory on Cam. Was the part on the jet all CG? Because if it was It looked very, very real.

ShimmeringStar
January 13th, 2006, 07:20 PM
The "kirking" criticism kills me. So, because Kirk slept around a lot, no character is ever allowed to have a bit of romance in a Scifi show?! Sheesh. Poor Cam. I bet he hasn't been with a girl in a long time, and the time he meets someone nice, she's murdered! I wouldn't call that "kirking"!When you're on duty as an emissary from your planet you ain't off the clock 'til you're back in your own bed on Earth. Call it what you will.... Kirking. Whoring. A quickie on the clock -- whatever moniker you want to name it.

I hope Cam has a wild-n-crazy intimate life, but not on 'company time.' Cam does seem like a pretty likeable character but it can be way too easy to make him into a cartoon character boinking every alien chick he meets.... Plus... the man seems to have morals -- look the writers have him nearly quitting the AF because of the angst he had over killing what ended up being a civilian target. He's showing signs of deep thought, convictions, a moral code. Guess some of us kinda, sorta thought he'd have some morals about his professional *ahem* intimate conduct too.

But like many have already said..... it was strictly a plot device, although I wonder... had the sex part had been removed, it *still* would have been a good ep. He didn't have to *ahem* her to make anyone (her ex or the general) mad enough to kill her....

kazbaby
January 13th, 2006, 07:24 PM
I have to watch it again, oh hardship abound ;), but for now I have to say I liked Samantha not leaving Cameron alone during the search through his memories. That continues to show that he…rather they… respect each other and have a friendship beyond the SGC.

They maintained the team aspect by having Teal’c and Daniel go over the details of the investigation. Other than Sam, there are no others that pay as strict attention to detail, even if it had colored Mitchell in an unfavorable light.

Yes, this type of storyline has been done in the past by other shows, as I said earlier. But they did it in their own way.

As for the complaint about the flashbacks for Mitchell’s history?

How else do you want them to tell it aside from a roundtable discussion and Cameron just talking. What fun is that?

Dani347
January 13th, 2006, 07:25 PM
The one liners and Kirking were really a minor part of the episode, but enough for a mention. Other than that he was great. His reaction to having those memories in his head, and then his anger when he was told that he should be grateful to be allowed to go hone with the memories still in his head were very well played.

Is it just me, or was Daniel talking much slower than his usual high speed?

AGateFan
January 13th, 2006, 07:26 PM
I liked the unexpected twist at the end, too. :) That is, if you mean the final erasure, as who actually killed her was apparent to me as soon as she was murdered. :(

LOL, I immediately thought of Tom Paris and the implanted memories and the murder HE didn't commit in ST:Voyager. :D (Hey, AGateFan, let's duke it out over whether the plot more resembled B5 or ST:Voyager! LOL :D :D )

I liked the "dad" bits because we FINALLY got to learn something about Cam's past. Overall I'd say it was the best ep so far this season. :)

:) I just meant the erasing of his memory as punishment for the crime. On B5 instead of executing you if you commited capital murder they sentenced you to "death of personality". Had the telepaths wipe you clean and send you back to serve society...... The rest of the ep was all Tom Paris and Voyager :D

ShimmeringStar
January 13th, 2006, 07:29 PM
Cons:
Kirking is getting annoying.
No one for Teal'c to beat up.:indeed: Especially after that award-winning performance in last week's ep!

This ep was totally predictable. The only thing was that her husband was the one that killed her but the other stuff I figured out pretty quick. The actor that plays Cameron as a kid didn't look anything, anything like Cameron as an adult. Although it was cool that we got some backstory on Cam. Was the part on the jet all CG? Because if it was It looked very, very real.That was nice.

The kid was okay, but more kudos for the casting of the father. Very believable casting there.:)

GenHammondsBarber
January 13th, 2006, 07:33 PM
Welcome to Gen Hammond's barber barber's shop

Sit down while I review Collateral Damage.

This was a really good episode earning 6 of 8 Chevron's encoded.

Overall

This episode was like Total Recall meets CSI in the stargate universe. It was a unique viewing expereince in the staragte universe. It envoked classic stargate in continuing old issues of politics/technology/friendships, throughout multiple seasons. This time it was done using the Gao'uld memory device and the Gao'ld Asgard treaty. The plot twist was great. We also got to meet a new race that was not connected to the Ori. The episode was much different then I had anticipated after reading plot summaries befoe hand, and kept me guessing.

The opening was something I have never seen in stargate, and had a CSI feel to it. I thought it was great to see the writers/directors show a darker side to stargate. Shake things up a bit. The murder, the dried blood, the anger in Mitchell's face and eyes. It was a great opening scene. From there I knew I was going to see something that I had not before in Stargate.

24 hours earlier

Loved seeing that. Alittle different for your stargate viewing experience as well. I was glad to see some innovation in their style.

Ben Browder-- I felt Ben's acting was great in this episode. I really felt for his character at several periods during the episode. This is the first time he has gotten me to do that.

We got to see a new civilization and its history. I enjoy episodes like this. They discussed "The Ring", and had their own internal struggles with what to do with the ring as well as new technology ( interstellar travel--memory deviceonce the Ga'ould fell. We were able to see that this is what many planets and civilizations under the asgard protection treaty are probably going through.

This was also one of our new SGC's 1st big moral test. They passed.

Kirking--This was fairly dark Kirking. The darkest I have ever scene in sci-fi. I don't mind kirking if their is some sort of twist or new way to show it. I felt this did it. When have you heard the term Blood Alcohol Level in stargate or sci fi at all.

You have Mitchell going home and getting drunk with a married woman. They did not play up the romance angle. Instead, they made the woman very aggressive. Now I have seen the woman be the agressor before, but it was to fulfill some purpose....to seduce and gain power...to gian information...this was purely sexual.

Also, I tend to think this will make Cam and the rest of SG-1 think twice before Kirking in the future.

I thought the asylum angle was great and highlighted the new politically climate of the galaxy. This has gone largely under the radar in the 1st half of this season. I was glad they were able to shed some light on how the galaxy has changed outside of the Ori, since the Gao'uld have fallen.

Childhood Memories

Not only do we get a unique stargate episode, but we get some great backstory on Cam. We learn about his past, and his relationship with his father. I began to like him alot more in this episode. Also, his Dad's legs being taken off was another sign of the darkness of this episode. The determination of his dad to walk again and Cam fighting through the error that killed innocent people helped me get a much better sense of who he is. ALso the Top Gun like plane sequence with Cam was pretty cool too.

There was a great Mckay/Zelenka moment between the two scientists....when he did not want to waste time explaining his theory.


Someone stated earlier that once people realized Cam did not committ the murder that they should have focused on the people with the proper expertise---and that this was logical,...and that by not doing so the episode was illogical.

I disagree. Thats the logical way if you actually want to find the killer, However: 1) Remember that the Emissary did not want this to continue. 2) The only reason the investigation continued is from our own political pressure. 3) Once they found the murderer they did not punish him.

The society we were dealing with was more concenred with technological breakthroughs and advancing its military then humanity. The episode showed the conflicts of this civilization in the dawn of a new era and I don't think people are appreciating that as much as they are I saw soemthing like this 7 years ago on a babylon 5 rerun.

We recieved a great epsiode that perhaps requires some to rewatch it before they thoroughly appreciate the work.

I hope you all enjoyed your time in the barbershop tonight.


:hammond:

Seshat
January 13th, 2006, 07:34 PM
As for the complaint about the flashbacks for Mitchell’s history?

How else do you want them to tell it aside from a roundtable discussion and Cameron just talking. What fun is that?
I will ALWAYS vote for the showing rather than the telling! :D

And who mentioned not liking the shaky camera style? I thought it added a sense of unreality to the ep, mirroring Cam's own sense of confusion at re-living the implanted memories and wondering what was real and what was not. I think that was absolutely intentional on the director's part to highlight the character's dilemma. :)

*goes off to look up who directed this ep*

ETA: WILL WARING! I should have known. I LOVE many of his eps from past seasons. :D

nccjones
January 13th, 2006, 07:36 PM
As for the complaint about the flashbacks for Mitchell’s history?

How else do you want them to tell it aside from a roundtable discussion and Cameron just talking. What fun is that?

Why do we have to know so much angst about his past anyways? Why can't we learn about him as we go. We never saw flashbacks from any of the other characters over the years. The closest to a flashback was when Daniel witnessed his parents killed and that was only one episode.

I just think with all the back story to Mitchell, TPTB are trying to force us to like him. I'm sorry, he's just not growing on me at all. This was the first episode in 9 years that I wasn't even looking forward to.

Daniel was and is my favorite character, and I dreaded the sixth season, but for some reason I liked Jonas. We didn't get any flashbacks from him...we knew everything we needed to know about him the first few episodes.

I don't even really miss Jack. I just don't care for the character of Mitchell and this episode really pushed me over the edge. I'll watch the rest of the season, but not with the anticipation of old. I'm looking forward to Vala returning though and hoping that will liven up the show some.

AGateFan
January 13th, 2006, 07:42 PM
Why do we have to know so much angst about his past anyways? Why can't we learn about him as we go. We never saw flashbacks from any of the other characters over the years. The closest to a flashback was when Daniel witnessed his parents killed and that was only one episode.

I just think with all the back story to Mitchell, TPTB are trying to force us to like him. I'm sorry, he's just not growing on me at all. This was the first episode in 9 years that I wasn't even looking forward to.

Daniel was and is my favorite character, and I dreaded the sixth season, but for some reason I liked Jonas. We didn't get any flashbacks from him...we knew everything we needed to know about him the first few episodes.

I don't even really miss Jack. I just don't care for the character of Mitchell and this episode really pushed me over the edge. I'll watch the rest of the season, but not with the anticipation of old. I'm looking forward to Vala returning though and hoping that will liven up the show some.
What about COLD LAZARUS. That was pretty much a bunch of Jack Flashbacks to seeing his kid shoot himself... I’m just saying, there is precedence...

Dani347
January 13th, 2006, 07:43 PM
[B]

Not only do we get a unique stargate episode, but we get some great backstory on Cam. We learn about his past, and his relationship with his father. I began to like him alot more in this episode. Also, his Dad's legs being taken off was another sign of the darkness of this episode. The determination of his dad to walk again and Cam fighting through the error that killed innocent people helped me get a much better sense of who he is. ALso the Top Gun like plane sequence with Cam was pretty cool too.



Aside from just background, this also helped give him a reason for being "determined, never give up" beyond just it being a heroic trait. Mitchell gets this because he had the example of his father battling a bigger obstacle. Plus, they add the need to know the truth (finding out exactly who had committed the murder, and in the flashbacks, needing to know who was in the target.)

Now, all they need to do is show how these same traits can be a flaw in his character, or show some other flaw to really give him depth.

cindyz
January 13th, 2006, 07:44 PM
So far, the best of season 9! Thanks TPTB for letting Ben show just how great of an actor he is. I really felt his angst/anguish for the first time this season.
ok, so the plot felt recycled... I guess there are only so many plots to be had in sci-fi.....but at least there was no mention of the Oreos. Getting to know more about Cameron Mitchell was good, too. I give it a 8/10.

BigGator5
January 13th, 2006, 07:46 PM
I have to watch it again, oh hardship abound ;), but for now I have to say I liked Samantha not leaving Cameron alone during the search through his memories. That continues to show that he…rather they… respect each other and have a friendship beyond the SGC.

SAM/CAM SHIP!! :sam: <3 :cameron:

AGateFan
January 13th, 2006, 07:48 PM
SAM/CAM SHIP!! :sam: <3 :cameron:
God, please no.

nccjones
January 13th, 2006, 07:48 PM
What about COLD LAZARUS. That was pretty much a bunch of Jack Flashbacks to seeing his kid shoot himself... I’m just saying, there is precedence...

Yes, I agree there is precedence, but it wasn't forced down our throats like he is. That's how I feel. I respect that you like the introduction of this character this way. I would rather see team episodes of them going to other planets and just learn about him along the way. How he deals with situations. I just don't feel we need to know all about his issues to be told what kind of a guy he is and what kind of a leader he'll be.

prion
January 13th, 2006, 07:52 PM
For those who are curious, JEFF UPTON (mentioned at end of episode in memorium)

was a gaffer (crew member) on SG1.

AKA: Chief Lighting Technician
The head of the electrical department, responsible for the design and execution of the lighting plan for a production. Early films used mostly natural light, which stagehands controlled with large tent cloths using long poles called gaffs (stagehands were often beached sailors or longshoremen, and a gaff is a type of boom on a sailing ship). In 16th Century English, the term "gaffer" denoted a man who was the head of any organized group of laborers.

AGateFan
January 13th, 2006, 07:53 PM
Yes, I agree there is precedence, but it wasn't forced down our throats like he is. That's how I feel. I respect that you like the introduction of this character this way. I would rather see team episodes of them going to other planets and just learn about him along the way. How he deals with situations. I just don't feel we need to know all about his issues to be told what kind of a guy he is and what kind of a leader he'll be.
I agree completely, I would like to see more team stand alones also and I would prefer to be 'shown' instead of told stuff.

kazbaby
January 13th, 2006, 07:53 PM
Why do we have to know so much angst about his past anyways? Why can't we learn about him as we go. We never saw flashbacks from any of the other characters over the years. The closest to a flashback was when Daniel witnessed his parents killed and that was only one episode.

I just think with all the back story to Mitchell, TPTB are trying to force us to like him. I'm sorry, he's just not growing on me at all. This was the first episode in 9 years that I wasn't even looking forward to.

It's not forcing him on us, it's filling us in on an enigma that is now a part of the team. We are learning as we go along, but they're allowing us to get to know him on the same level that we know the rest of the team.


SAM/CAM SHIP!! :sam: <3 :cameron:

Oh, I hope not. I like them having just a friendship. It's another layer to their lives other than adventures.

nccjones
January 13th, 2006, 07:54 PM
Ok...Am I really the only one who noticed the Daniel slam dunk in the conference room? I'm starting to wonder if people didn't think it was a big deal. I mean, Daniel was voicing his concern and there was only on a few planets so far Mitchell who was already hot after the alian babe slamming him for his concerns, and then Landry saying..yes, we know that for 9 years that there's been questionable alian devices..but that's what they go to the planets (well, along those lines...not exact quote).

I just felt that he was totally disrespected in that scene. JMO.

Lt. Colonel Ryu Gaia
January 13th, 2006, 07:56 PM
If anything, it seemed to me like Sam was interested in the technology more than Cam. No ship involved.

Dani347
January 13th, 2006, 07:56 PM
I agree completely, I would like to see more team stand alones also and I would prefer to be 'shown' instead of told stuff.

It didn't seem to me like being told. I wasn't told that Mitchell is determined to find the truth. I saw it through his actions. I saw why he is persistant, through the flashbacks. It was sort of like The Gamekeeper, where a past event plays a part in the episode.

Oh, and no ship. Just concern for a friend having a very difficult time.

Dromag67
January 13th, 2006, 07:57 PM
It's not forcing him on us, it's filling us in on an enigma that is now a part of the team. We are learning as we go along, but they're allowing us to get to know him on the same level that we know the rest of the team.



Oh, I hope not. I like them having just a friendship. It's another layer to their lives other than adventures.


I agree completely.

I was glad they added the backstory, it really helps me respect the character more and take him more seriously.

nccjones
January 13th, 2006, 07:58 PM
It's not forcing him on us, it's filling us in on an enigma that is now a part of the team. We are learning as we go along, but they're allowing us to get to know him on the same level that we know the rest of the team.

The same level as the rest of the team? So then they have to force that stuff down our throats to get 9 years worth of history out of him.

Again, I'm sorry you don't agree with me. I understand where you are coming from, but for me, it's too much. We learned about him in the first episode, I was ready to accept him and move on. But not all this angst about him. For me, I hope they are done with the flashbacks. Let's move on and get some good team episodes.

Mio
January 13th, 2006, 08:03 PM
Overall: Meh.

M-E-H.

Meh.

I, for one, like to see the stargate....

AGateFan
January 13th, 2006, 08:04 PM
It didn't seem to me like being told. I wasn't told that Mitchell is determined to find the truth. I saw it through his actions. I saw why he is persistant, through the flashbacks. It was sort of like The Gamekeeper, where a past event plays a part in the episode.

Oh, and no ship. Just concern for a friend having a very difficult time.
I wasnt referring specifically to this ep. I was talking in general terms... I actually rather liked this ep. To me it was as good as Cold Lazarus.... well ok maybe not as good... I would have to watch it a few hundered times before I could really say that, but anyway you know what I mean.

kazbaby
January 13th, 2006, 08:05 PM
I can't understand how you see it as forcing his history down our throats, and it's not all angst in his history. Yes, he had something traumatic in his childhood, but from the look of it, it made for a strong relationship with his father and they showed us why, and how, he was determined to survive and learn to walk again after his own crash.

And in no way am I saying that they're showing us '9 years worth of history', but rather they’re showing what we need to in order to get to know him more intimately as we know the others.

Dani347
January 13th, 2006, 08:05 PM
Ok...Am I really the only one who noticed the Daniel slam dunk in the conference room? I'm starting to wonder if people didn't think it was a big deal. I mean, Daniel was voicing his concern and there was only on a few planets so far Mitchell who was already hot after the alian babe slamming him for his concerns, and then Landry saying..yes, we know that for 9 years that there's been questionable alian devices..but that's what they go to the planets (well, along those lines...not exact quote).

I just felt that he was totally disrespected in that scene. JMO.
I noticed, and it didn't bother me. It didn't seem like a slam. Daniel said that if the device succeeded, it could accelerate their (did these people have a name?) technological advancement. Mitchell just said that he thought that was the reason why they were doing it. He didn't call Daniel stupid or anything, either directly, or in his manner (from my view). And, Landry just said that the SGC has been doing the same thing. Which they have been doing. Landry didn't agree with Daniel, he said so, he pointed out why. It hardly seemed like a slam from either of them, imo.

I also didn't see 9 years worth of history. I saw some pretty basic things. He had a father who lost his legs, and who he apparently had a good relationship with. He had one bad experience as a fighter pilot. And, the battle in Lost City. Oh, and Grandma. Which has mainly been through minor mentions in various episodes. That's only scrapping the surface.

AGateFan
January 13th, 2006, 08:09 PM
I noticed, and it didn't bother me. It didn't seem like a slam. Daniel said that if the device succeeded, it could accelerate their (did these people have a name?) technological advancement. Mitchell just said that he thought that was the reason why they were doing it. He didn't call Daniel stupid or anything, either directly, or in his manner (from my view). And, Landry just said that the SGC has been doing the same thing. Which they have been doing. Landry didn't agree with Daniel, he said so, he pointed out why. It hardly seemed like a slam from either of them, imo.
Actually, I thought that Mitchell misunderstood Daniels point. I thought he thought Daniel was saying its a good thing to accelarate ones technological advancement. Then Daniel had to "explain" to him why such things are bad. Then Landry simply pointed out that its the exact same thing the SGC does everyday... heck, its their entire mission.

Thats what I thought was going on... so to me it was more a Daniel slam on Mitchell who was crazy happy about some new cool tech.

nccjones
January 13th, 2006, 08:10 PM
I noticed, and it didn't bother me. It didn't seem like a slam. Daniel said that if the device succeeded, it could accelerate their (did these people have a name?) technological advancement. Mitchell just said that he thought that was the reason why they were doing it. He didn't call Daniel stupid or anything, either directly, or in his manner (from my view). And, Landry just said that the SGC has been doing the same thing. Which they have been doing. Landry didn't agree with Daniel, he said so, he pointed out why. It hardly seemed like a slam from either of them, imo.

Well, I admit that I may be a bit prejudice at this point and that's why I saw it differently. I have to say that many people like the character Mitchell and I'm probably one of the few who don't. At least I have my 8 seasons of SG1 to always watch. :)

I guess from the series standpoint I'm glad he's being well received so the show can continue. I feel bad that I can't learn to like him like you all do. I'm still giving the show a chance and waiting Vala's return hoping she'll bring some life to the show.

kazbaby
January 13th, 2006, 08:14 PM
I guess from the series standpoint I'm glad he's being well received so the show can continue. I feel bad that I can't learn to like him like you all do. I'm still giving the show a chance and waiting Vala's return hoping she'll bring some life to the show.

It's all cool. Sometimes a character just doesn't sit right with a person and either they'll grow on them or they'll blip over them during the run. ;)

Dani347
January 13th, 2006, 08:15 PM
Actually, I thought that Mitchell misunderstood Daniels point. I thought he thought Daniel was saying its a good thing to accelarate ones technological advancement. Then Daniel had to "explain" to him why such things are bad. Then Landry simply pointed out that its the exact same thing the SGC does everyday... heck, its their entire mission.

Thats what I thought was going on... so to me it was more a Daniel slam on Mitchell who was crazy happy about some new cool tech.

I thought they both understood each other. Didn't see a slam on anyone in the scene.

GenHammondsBarber
January 13th, 2006, 08:17 PM
I definetly did not see evidence of a Cam/ Sam Ship. I felt a team vibe overall, but not a Cam Sam Ship.

Seshat
January 13th, 2006, 08:18 PM
I thought they both understood each other. Didn't see a slam on anyone in the scene. I agree. I didn't see a slam. In fact I thought it was a kind of humorous exchange. :D

yowo
January 13th, 2006, 08:21 PM
First of all I Love Stargate!
Tonight’s show was ok because any Stargate is better than not getting to see a new one at all. Amanda made it worth watching.
Having said that the best thing about tonight’s show was the previews of next week
”I got nothing…Yet”
I do not hate BB; I even think I could grow to like him if I were given a bone about Jack. For eight years we have been feed the team and it is hard to except a new team when the old team is still very much on our minds. It is hard to embrace new people when you still have questions in your mind about your old friends. I just hope they are saving all the questions for one big answer at the end.

:jack: :sam: :daniel: :tealc:

AGateFan
January 13th, 2006, 08:23 PM
I agree. I didn't see a slam. In fact I thought it was a kind of humorous exchange. :D
Ok slam was the wrong word. But I think Daniel was saying that advancing to quick was not good but that Cam didnt get that.... or Daniel didnt think that he got that, because I could have sworn Daniel threw him one of those 'looks'... kinda like the 'he read your report' kinda look, but it went by really fast.

the fifth man
January 13th, 2006, 08:25 PM
I really liked this ep. The idea of the memory device was cool, and I really respected how Mitchell refused to just let things go. Way to go, ptb! Nice to see the backstory on Mitchell like we did. I think that kind of stuff will go a long way in helping others except him more. Also good to see a quality stand-alone ep. See, the Ori won't be the focus of every ep. I'm sure that made some people happy. I can't wait for next week.:)

Seshat
January 13th, 2006, 08:27 PM
Ok slam was the wrong word. But I think Daniel was saying that advancing to quick was not good but that Cam didnt get that.... or daniel didnt think that he got that, because I could have sworn Daniel threw him one of those 'looks'... kinda like the 'he read your report' kinda look, but it went by really fast. Yup. That's one of the bits I thought was funny. :)

It doesn't bother me that Daniel doesn't think Cam "gets it" sometimes, when in fact he does. I find it rather amusing. It's a nice subtle reminder that Cam is not Jack. ;)

FoolishPleasure
January 13th, 2006, 08:28 PM
I really liked this episode - sometimes its better to NOT have guns, explosions, thousands dying. Nice touch with Mitchell's flashbacks with his father and his "incident". Too bad SGA hasn't bothered to provide Sheppard with the same courtesy. We know so much about Mitchell in 3/4 of a season, and nothing about Sheppard after 2 years. Probably why I've recently come to like Mitchell more than Sheppard.

As for the "kirking", that one kiss doesn't count in my book. Now, if Mitchell continues to pick up babes or eye them up and down every other week, THEN we can call him "Sheph0r". .er, ah. ."KIRK". Personally, Mitchell seems to have a lot of class when it comes to women.

Nice twist with the ex-husband at the end. The "Kinsey-type" dude was too obvious, and I was thinking the short guy was the murderer. Kept me going.

Nice to see Walter again!

Seshat
January 13th, 2006, 08:32 PM
Nice to see Walter again! Oh, I almost forgot about Walter! And he got to do a funny "bit", too! :D Lovely. :)

(Did you see how well his appearance segues into my new "No Laughing Matter" book cover?? I LOVE that. :D )

Dani347
January 13th, 2006, 08:36 PM
As for the "kirking", that one kiss doesn't count in my book. Now, if Mitchell continues to pick up babes or eye them up and down every other week, THEN we can call him "Sheph0r". .er, ah. ."KIRK". Personally, Mitchell seems to have a lot of class when it comes to women.


To me (and I haven't gone through the whole Kirking thread, so my understanding might be different) it isn't the amount of times any one character does it. I wasn't saying Mitchell was a Kirk (a Kirker?), I meant that the plot device itself was Kirking. Planting some pointless male/female sexual tension type thing, that was completely unnecessary to help the plot along.

the fifth man
January 13th, 2006, 08:43 PM
Nice twist with the ex-husband at the end. The "Kinsey-type" dude was too obvious, and I was thinking the short guy was the murderer. Kept me going.

To tell you the truth, I didn't know what to think about who did it. I thought they might go the easy route and have it be the "Kinsey-type", but boy did tptb pleasantly surprise me. Nicely done in my book.

Traveler Enroute1
January 13th, 2006, 08:46 PM
I liked this episode. Getting more intel on Cameron Mitchell is always a good thing, although how it ties in or will tie into his future on SG1 remains open. The father's inclusion was moving, yet not played to be mushy.

Loved the support that Sam Carter gave Cam; she seemed genuinely worried and he seemed inclined to trust her to be there. I thought she was uncharacteristically uninvolved with the technology, having most of her focus on Cam, but then, that seems to have been by design. The shots of them together (and with Teal'c and Daniel) gave me hope of their true team bonding development.

For a while, I thought Teal'c would have no lines at all, then finally! Daniel (as someone mentioned) did indeed slow his staccato-style delivery tonight. I liked when he told the Big Important Guy that Cam would not leave this alone, and if he didn't, the trade talks would be toast. And um, yeah, rerunning the murder so many times was a little overkill. :o

Just sayin', I was pleasantly surprised by the ending. Apparently most posters here guessed the murderer was the husband, or at least Big Important Guy. But whoo-hoo, not the husband who murdered his wife but didn't know he murdered his wife because he...Yeah, nice. A very sublte touch of self-preservation rearing unconsciously in the husband was well played, too. And I almost suspected the other scientist when we saw what Cam saw in the mirror; both men had beards so it was hard to tell at first: (Director's coup there). Rating: 3/5. (Hey, I'm generous!) :sam: :cameron: :daniel: :tealc: First impressions, anyway.

Dani347
January 13th, 2006, 08:51 PM
. I liked when he told the Big Important Guy that Cam would not leave this alone, and if he didn't, the trade talks would be toast.

Shades of Landry telling Vala that if she didn't cooperate and get rid of the bracelets, that what she got out of the whole thing would be left entirely up to Daniel.


And, I have no idea if the mystery was easy to solve or not, because I'm a total idiot when it comes to solving a mystery. I never know who dunnit.

Token
January 13th, 2006, 08:55 PM
Well, I admit that I may be a bit prejudice at this point and that's why I saw it differently. I have to say that many people like the character Mitchell and I'm probably one of the few who don't. At least I have my 8 seasons of SG1 to always watch. :)

I guess from the series standpoint I'm glad he's being well received so the show can continue. I feel bad that I can't learn to like him like you all do. I'm still giving the show a chance and waiting Vala's return hoping she'll bring some life to the show.

Well, you are not alone. I don't like the Mitchell character either. I can't seem to put my finger on it except that I keep saying "That sounds like what Jack would say or do." I understand from a business sense that TPTB needed to replace RDA's presence on the show, but Browder's character seems too Jack-like. Sheppard has Jack qualities while maintaining a uniqueness. Not knowing the backstory of Sheppard or any of the others hasn't diminished my enjoyment of Atlantis. I feel Mitchell is being forced on me. I'm waiting for Mitchell to be something more than a Jack replacement. JMHO.:)

Oh, and I miss Carter's technobabble. :(

the fifth man
January 13th, 2006, 08:56 PM
And, I have no idea if the mystery was easy to solve or not, because I'm a total idiot when it comes to solving a mystery. I never know who dunnit.

But doesn't that make it all the more exciting when the truth is revealed?:)

NakedJehutyV2
January 13th, 2006, 09:00 PM
can someone tell me what happened after cameron saw a semi clear face of the killer?


btw caught the ripple effect preview. awesome!

Droops
January 13th, 2006, 09:01 PM
Liked it. Good to have Mitchell background and the twist at the end was great. I didn't see that one coming.

This also sets us up to have a new alliance with new people. That might come back later in some form, good or bad.

Wasn't action packed but it didn't have to be that way to be enjoyable. Landry and Walter, fun interaction.

Overall, it was like munching on a candy bar. It wouldn't fill you up or sustain you for a long time, but it was still a tasty treat.

the fifth man
January 13th, 2006, 09:01 PM
..., but Browder's character seems too Jack-like.

You see, I don't see that. Yeah, Mitchell is good at quirky, funny remarks in dangerous situations like Jack was. But that's just part of his character. Unlike Jack, Cam seems genuinely interested in things Daniel discovers, and loves knowing everything he can about a situation. I mean, the guy's read every mission report of SG-1's. Also, he's the kind of guy who doesn't like to use force unless absolutely necessary. For example, in "Beachhead", CM was hoping he'd have a "nuke-free career". Jack was always ready to bomb the he** out of the enemy. I totally respect your opinion, but I guess I just see things differently.:)

Osiris-RA
January 13th, 2006, 09:02 PM
A decent episode. It felt a little more Stargate-y than usual - even considering I don't think we see the Stargate once. What, is the Stargate prop undergoing construction or something?

So anyway, props I give:

1. I could stand Cam this episode...though he did seem a bit..how do I say this without offending people....limp? I mean, I understand that he's undergone a painful experience, but he was a little too emotional. I can't explain well. But he was...ok.

2. Carter, good to see ya! Question: How'd we go from Mitchell to 'Cam'? Or was it always 'Cam' and I missed something? And that's 'Carter' to you, Cammy m'boy!

3. The mystery, thin. At first I thought it was that twisted up looking commander of the facility dude, but then I figured it would be the most inconspicuous person - as it usually is in a generic murder tale - the husband. Duh. So, surprise, suprise. I felt quite sorry for him in the end. Erasing his own memory. Tch tch tch.

4. Overall. Eh. Ok. I sure miss the Stargate though.

Seshat
January 13th, 2006, 09:02 PM
But doesn't that make it all the more exciting when the truth is revealed?:)
I've seen waaay too many PBS "Mystery" eps to not come close to the right answer to "who is the killer?" question. But that's why a little twist at the end can be so much fun. You've guessed the answer, but they added a little special something to tweak it up a notch.

That's why I liked this ep even though I knew all along who the killer was. :)

FoolishPleasure
January 13th, 2006, 09:07 PM
I can't seem to put my finger on it except that I keep saying "That sounds like what Jack would say or do."
I don't find Cam Mitchell to be anything like Jack, except that he's in the Air Force. Maybe that is because I'm "over" Jack by now. I really don't miss him anymore.

Several good episodes in a row now. Nice to see the show has hit its stride again.

rexpop
January 13th, 2006, 09:13 PM
A good solid stand alone episode. It was great to get some back story on Mitchell, tying into the flashbacks we saw in Avalon and Babylon. Hopefully we'll see his father again.

In fact the only thing I can pick about is the fact that they turn up to a formal reception in their green jumpsuits instead of something smarter. You would have expected at least Cam and Sam to be in dress uniform.

On the subject of the 'Kirking' clearly what TPTB need to do is propose a spin-off, maybe 'Stargate: Crashers', where each week Cam and Shep drunk dial gate addresses to crash and pick up chicks ;). I think the 7pm slot is open ;).

Droops
January 13th, 2006, 09:14 PM
. . . I would rather see team episodes of them going to other planets and just learn about him along the way. How he deals with situations. . . . .

Um, isn't that what we JUST WATCHED this evening? :S

majorsal
January 13th, 2006, 09:15 PM
i just finished watching the ep...

good ep! ;)

THIS is how i want to like mitchell. THIS is the mitchell i like! :D

i found the story intriguing and well done. if i hadn't been spoiled by the ep, i don't think i would have figured out who really did it.

i'm very sensitive to mitchell's one-linering, but what he said before the ep got serious didn't bother me at all.

there isn't anything for me to criticise about this ep. (well, other than not enough sam :p)

i actually felt sorry for the husband.

LOVED the flashbacks.


now that i've said that, though, it won't go down as one of my fave eps. and that's not a diss on the ep. i think i'm more 'relieved' by liking and enjoying mitchell again than actually grooving on the ep.

my score: 6/10




sally http://forum.gateworld.net/images/gw_icons/icon14.gif --> :cameron:

Seshat
January 13th, 2006, 09:19 PM
In fact the only thing I can pick about is the fact that they turn up to a formal reception in their green jumpsuits instead of something smarter. You would have expected at least Cam and Sam to be in dress uniform.
Yes, they is no danger of them overwhelming their many new alien contacts with their dazzling sense of style, is there? :rolleyes:

I kept wondering whose house they were using for the shoot... ;)

Shipperahoy
January 13th, 2006, 09:20 PM
I liked this one better than last weeks ep. There hasn't been any eps I've hated this year but, sadly, none I've been overexcited about either. I really wish that I could come on here and be a giddy fan girl again. Oh well, enough whining.

I love me some Ben Browder so I was really looking forward to seeing what he would do with this and I wasn't disapointed. Early on I was worried that it was going to heavy on the quippage and not so much on the seeing Ben's range but it changed pace pretty quickly. The shippy stuff with the lady doc was entirely unnecessary IMO, he could have just walked her home and it would have served the story just as well. I've been complaining all season that we didn't have any back story on Cam and now we finally have some. I only hope that the tragedy in his past is reflected in his personality and actions somewhere down the line and that it wasn't just filler for this episode. With Jack I often felt that his flippancy was a sort of mask for the death of his son and the horrible things he's seen and probably done in his past but I don't really want to see that with Cam. I don't mind the occasional quip but I don't want Jack 2.0. Anyway, I liked the fact that I didn't see the end coming. I mean, I had a feeling it wasn't uptight government guy, that would have been too easy, but I didn't see the ex doing it and then erasing his own memory of it. Kudos for that, I haven't been surprised by an ending to anything in quite some time.

I didn't like that all Sam seemed to do this ep was stand around and emote. I love Sam. She's my favorite. However, there's only so much standing around she can do while making concerned eyes and being supportive before you just start wishing that she'd start spouting technobabble or something FCOL.

I had high hopes that Chris might actually start getting some lines this season but it looks like I hoped in vain. He makes good-looking background scenery though.

Dani347
January 13th, 2006, 09:27 PM
I only hope that the tragedy in his past is reflected in his personality and actions somewhere down the line and that it wasn't just filler for this episode.

Yes. This explained to me the whole persistance thing, but I want to know something else about who Mitchell is. Something different, and to see it play a part in his characterization throughout the series.


With Jack I often felt that his flippancy was a sort of mask for the death of his son and the horrible things he's seen and probably done in his past but I don't really want to see that with Cam.

Yes, like that. Not the same thing, but something where you could look at him acting a certain way in an episode and think that it makes sense because of what we know about him.

MasySyma
January 13th, 2006, 09:30 PM
It was a good episode. I didn't like it as much as last week's episode, but for a stand-alone piece, it did well.

I loved the plot twist. When I read the earlier spoilers, I rolled my eyes and thought "Great. A ST:TNG rip off." However, the writers found a way to make an old story unique, so I loved the plot.

Ok, I have to agree that Carter, Daniel, and Teal'c didn't do much this week, but we have to have a Mitchell episode sooner or later. We gained valuable character insight, and we didn't have to sit through tons of exposition either. For all of the fans complaining about the show telling and not showing last week, SG-1 showed character development and depth this time.

I have to give it a 9/10 because I liked it, but I won't strain myself to catch it during the reruns. However, I'm looking forward to Ripple Effect, and I hope Season 9 continues the good work.

Dani347
January 13th, 2006, 09:37 PM
I loved the plot twist. When I read the earlier spoilers, I rolled my eyes and thought "Great. A ST:TNG rip off." However, the writers found a way to make an old story unique, so I loved the plot.


I think for me, I'm less of a plot person when watching a show, and more of a character person. A derivative plot doesn't bother me if I feel the character is doing a good job. And, it helps that I either have never seen or don't remember the other shows or movies the plot has been in. But, to seeing Mitchell's reactions going through it, and feeling that those reactions made sense and were compelling are more important than if it was original. Funny, in my own writing, I'm the exact opposite. I'm much better with plot than character.

BTW, this is not a criticism of people who are bothered by a plot being unoriginal. Perfectly valid thing to mention or focus on, if it's important to you. Just why I see it this way.

Kliggins
January 13th, 2006, 09:39 PM
Loved the Walter medical-speak.

Liked the part with Cam/Dad at the end.

Landry is still not doing it for me.


"That sounds like what Jack would say or do."

There were a couple of remarks in the beginning that were very Jack to me, but then again I could be somewhat prejudiced. :rolleyes:

esoap524
January 13th, 2006, 09:41 PM
I can't understand how you see it as forcing his history down our throats, and it's not all angst in his history. Yes, he had something traumatic in his childhood, but from the look of it, it made for a strong relationship with his father and they showed us why, and how, he was determined to survive and learn to walk again after his own crash.

And in no way am I saying that they're showing us '9 years worth of history', but rather they’re showing what we need to in order to get to know him more intimately as we know the others.

I agree with you, kaz. This was one of the best eps this season (and I'm a Vala/CB fan!). I was interested, the camera work was good, the dialogue wasn't too pretentious or overly techno-babbly, the acting was good. I agree, D & T didn't have a lot to do but I liked Sam's involvement. I thought I had the bad guy pegged from the get-go and, happy to say, I was wrong. That emissary guy always plays the villain and he just looks evil.

I think we do need to get some Cam backstory. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I KNOW it's about the gate already. I thought BB did a good job with the role and I appreciated the backstory, although the words, "every man gets a chance to be his own kind of hero" kinda flashed thru my head ;)

I like a little angst in my sci-fi. I also like a little kissing. It worked for me.

the fifth man
January 13th, 2006, 09:43 PM
Um, isn't that what we JUST WATCHED this evening? :S

I would sure think so. But that's just me.:)

Dani347
January 13th, 2006, 09:53 PM
I agree, D & T didn't have a lot to do but I liked Sam's involvement.


You know, for a character centric episode, I really didn't get an impression of any wallpapering. The brunt of the action was on Mitchell, but I still had a sense of Daniel and Teal'c arguing with the other guy to get the info necessary. I felt like they were doing something, although Teal'c can always be affored more lines than he gets. And, Sam didn't really do much, but she was there to lend support to Mitchell. I didn't get the impression of them standing around without a function, even if we mostly saw Mitchell.

The need to get to the bottom of things could be just the thing to show another time where he does something wrong. Where he goes too far, or hurts someone (I mean emotionally) or something in a quest to get answers. Sometimes not knowing is better, and he might not be able to see that, because it's a part of his character.

I didn't dislike it exactly, but it seemed unecessary in the flashback for him to end it by saying that he'd have to live with his actions "for the rest of my life." That last part seemed to be spelling it out. Just him saying he would have to live with it would be sufficient. I would have known he meant for the rest of his life and not, say, until 4 pm next Tuesday.

binkpmmc
January 13th, 2006, 10:07 PM
Ok...Am I really the only one who noticed the Daniel slam dunk in the conference room? I'm starting to wonder if people didn't think it was a big deal. I mean, Daniel was voicing his concern and there was only on a few planets so far Mitchell who was already hot after the alian babe slamming him for his concerns, and then Landry saying..yes, we know that for 9 years that there's been questionable alian devices..but that's what they go to the planets (well, along those lines...not exact quote).

I just felt that he was totally disrespected in that scene. JMO.

I saw it and I agree with you.

binkpmmc
January 13th, 2006, 10:12 PM
Well, you are not alone. I don't like the Mitchell character either. I can't seem to put my finger on it except that I keep saying "That sounds like what Jack would say or do." I understand from a business sense that TPTB needed to replace RDA's presence on the show, but Browder's character seems too Jack-like. Sheppard has Jack qualities while maintaining a uniqueness. Not knowing the backstory of Sheppard or any of the others hasn't diminished my enjoyment of Atlantis. I feel Mitchell is being forced on me. I'm waiting for Mitchell to be something more than a Jack replacement. JMHO.:)

Oh, and I miss Carter's technobabble. :(


Yup - you guys are not alone on this.

NakedJehutyV2
January 13th, 2006, 10:47 PM
what was the twist?

Hatusu
January 13th, 2006, 10:54 PM
I'm commenting before I read everyone else's reviews. I hope you don't mind.

The plot was very derivative. I've seen the memory device before, most memorably (pun intended) in the movie "Brainstorm".

When a plot has been used before, I look for some originality, a twist that will surprise me. Well I was surprised by the identity of the murderer, but unfortunately, I wasn't made to care. There was no real suspense about it. What I did like was the bittersweet look into the life of Cameron Mitchell and his memories of his Dad.

David, are you reading this? That seems to be an interesting recurring theme with Ben Browder. His character on "Farscape", John Crichton had a close relationship with his astronaut father. His SG1 character, Mitchell had a close relationship with his injured test pilot father. The actor even mentioned his own Dad (giving him advice) in his interview with GW's David Read.

That was what I liked about the episode. Otherwise it was a little drab. The costumes were ordinary. The people were ordinary people who looked descendant of Europeans on Earth. The interiors looked like they were out of "Metropolitan Homes" magazine. And of course, they spoke English. There was no feeling of being on an alien planet. When the Asgard were mentioned at one point, I thought, "Oh! Alien planet. Yes, I forgot."

Amanda Tapping, Christopher Judge and Michael Shanks' characters were on the planet with Mitchell, but had little to do. Back on Earth at "Stargate Command" Gary Jones (Walter) had a funny bit with Beau Bridges. And finally Beau Bridges had a nice Hammond-like scene with Mitchell.

Overall the show was enjoyable, if not original or terribly exciting.

Hubble
January 13th, 2006, 11:13 PM
I guess I'm in the minority here 'cause I thought this was a snoozer.

It was obvious from the get-go that Mitchell didn't kill the woman and I had no interest in who did do it because I didn't know those people at all. I Mitchell's snogging with the woman was unnecessary, not something we've ever seen Jack or Daniel do while on a mission (unless drugged). They could have had the same results without it.

For me it was just one very long and boring hour; really bad writing, I thought. I'm really trying hard to like Mitchell, but I just can't get into him. Don't dislike him, but I find nothing at all compelling about him. I wish I could like him...

Dani347
January 13th, 2006, 11:16 PM
Another reason I didn't see any hint of ship between Sam and Mitchell (aside from the fact that I don't register ship just because someone happens to show concern for someone else) was Sam's complete lack of being upset over Mitchell's obvious interest in Soon to be Dead Woman. I mean, the grin she gave him when Daniel questioned Mitchell's "diplomacy" didn't look like something that she would give if she had "feeeeelings" for him. Thank goodness.

NotAscended
January 13th, 2006, 11:45 PM
You see, I don't see that. Yeah, Mitchell is good at quirky, funny remarks in dangerous situations like Jack was. But that's just part of his character. Unlike Jack, Cam seems genuinely interested in things Daniel discovers, and loves knowing everything he can about a situation. I mean, the guy's read every mission report of SG-1's. Also, he's the kind of guy who doesn't like to use force unless absolutely necessary. For example, in "Beachhead", CM was hoping he'd have a "nuke-free career". Jack was always ready to bomb the he** out of the enemy. I totally respect your opinion, but I guess I just see things differently.:)

That's a really nice description of how the two characters differ. And I think this episode really illuminated his motivation to overcome obstacles, but also showed some of the source of his self-doubt that seems to be at the core of Mitchell's character. Much better exposition of his backstory than the season opener, which touched on a lot of these same themes.

NakedJehutyV2
January 13th, 2006, 11:50 PM
so what was the twist?

gwangung
January 14th, 2006, 12:43 AM
Hm. Isn't the reluctanfce to use force tied back to his friendly fire instance?

Agent_Dark
January 14th, 2006, 03:19 AM
Well, that wasn't too bad at all. First episode that I had the real feeling that I was watching SG1 of old :D

However, some nitpicks...

I thought it was slightly stupid of Mitchell to be so eager to get involved in internal politics of an alien nation. Thats not the way to handle diplomatic negotiations and I was suprised that Mitchell didn't seem to grasp that. Of course it was good to see Landry being slightly pissed about it (ie they didn't just ignore that plot hole). And even though Mitchell did say that he's no good at diplomacy, surely something as simple and obvious as that would have been hammered into him...

The other thing is that while the ending was suprising, it was kinda lame. Points for not making it the Big Important Guy (however, I wasn't expecting it to be. There's always a twist ;)), but the brush over of the crime seemed rather anti-climatic. I was expecting something that had a little more 'oomph' to it.

However they were my two main beefs. The rest of the episode wasn't too bad at all. Some nice Mitchell development (finally) and some nice interaction between him and Carter (I'm really interested in getting some info on how they know each other. They definitely have a good friendship going on)
The F-16 action was pretty cool :D

I'll give it a 6-7/10. Really looking foward to Ripple Effect next week though :D

thorshammer
January 14th, 2006, 04:53 AM
After seeing the episode again I ask, Why is it that in the flashbacks, when you see Cameron his face appears to be highlighted by a flashlight type of light source? I mean somebody had to be holding a flashlight, right? I know the purpose of that is to make sure that the viewers know that its Cameron but why use a flashlight?

AGateFan
January 14th, 2006, 05:18 AM
so what was the twist?
The kinsey guy didnt do it ,though he was setup as the most obvious suspect. (Well at least we dont think he did it, unless he somehow implanted the memories in the husband and then erased them and then implanted them in Mitchell...but that would be too twisty)...

It really wasnt that much of a twist. Once he said he was the husband he immediatly should become a suspect (especially as it makes the whole kissing thing actually realvant). But the whole "hes trying to help find the truth, because he erased his own memories and doesent remember the truth is hes the murder" thing was kinda cool.

mindfire
January 14th, 2006, 05:20 AM
This was a good episode, it seemed twisted kill someone then erase all memory of it and implant it into someone else.

KatG
January 14th, 2006, 05:22 AM
Posting before I read what everyone else said.

I actually enjoyed this. Some nice background into Mitchell and a nice snapshot of what he's made of.

This almost felt like SG-1 for a change. They were off-world, there was a crisis, they worked as a team to solve it and came home.

Not bad. Not bad at all.

Suzy
January 14th, 2006, 05:28 AM
I was a bit....surprised, I think. I felt like I was watching Farscape :P

I love BB, I think he's great and I like seeing his character on Stargate develop, but it did feel a bit forced and I didn't entirely feel the Stargate vibe. But the weird thing is that at the same time I really enjoyed it, even though it didn't fully feel as Stargate. Even the camerawork didn't feel Stargate-y. And deep down I have to admit I enjoyed seeing an "emotional" side of Stargate. Makes a nice change from explosions and guns.

Oh and whoever said they looked like European descendants...puh-lease, we Europeans have a better fashion taste than what those people were wearing ;)

Seastallion
January 14th, 2006, 05:50 AM
I quite liked the show...! :)

Let the good times roll..! :cameron:

entil2001
January 14th, 2006, 07:06 AM
Well, I wanted more character exploration, and I got it. Sort of. I’ve actually been looking forward to an episode devoted to Mitchell since the beginning of the season, since his character needs to get the same level of development as the rest of the cast. Plot concerns overwhelmed the beginning of the season for just about everyone, so this is pretty much the first chance to explore Mitchell’s past. So why was I a bit disappointed with the final product?

Well, part of it was the familiarity. I don’t recall “SG-1” doing this kind of thing before, but I definitely remember a similar plot device used on “Star Trek: Voyager”. (I believe the character in question was Harry Kim, but I can honestly say I don’t have a detailed memory of anything from that series.) There were some interesting questions about the nature of memory and how it might be manipulated with the right technology, but was it enough? I’m not sure.

For me, this was like listening to a live recording of a song that I’ve heard dozens and dozens of times. There are minor variations within the performance, but the song remains the same, and sometimes I’m just not in the mood for it. I can understand why the writers went for a stand-alone episode, after a big chunk of Ori mythology, but this just didn’t strike me as interesting or revelatory.

So Mitchell is working out Daddy issues. (Yeah, that won’t remind anyone of Crichton!) He’s also dealing with guilt from activities during wartime, it seems, which is somewhat more interesting. But given the current success of “Lost”, a series that excels at exploring a character’s past with a flair for good pacing and plenty of surprises, I couldn’t help but compare the manner in which Mitchell’s past experiences were detailed.

The point is that I didn’t feel as though the revelation of Mitchell’s record and his feelings of guilt were properly paced. The key to his own confusion was the underlying guilt of his past association with a lethal mistake. While there was some emotional fallout, particularly in terms of his relationship to his father, the final act concerned the memory-altering technology and the ethics thereof.

I think the story would have had more impact if the revelation about Mitchell didn’t come until the end, and the situation was less clear cut. In many respects, this episode shows a Mitchell with doubts about himself and a crushing sense of responsibility, which he clearly masks with humor. That works for me, but why not darken the character a bit by making his choice to release the bomb his own, rather than an order given on bad intel?

I’m not saying that I want “SG-1” to stop being what it is. It’s not exactly a series devoted to deep character development or characters with crushing psychological issues. Even O’Neill only had his issues dredged up when it was convenient; most of the time, that side of his character was well-concealed. But this is a case where the writers had the perfect motive, means, and opportunity for a “Lost”-esque episode: questions about the reality of memory, the need to give a new character some definition and history, and a stand-alone chance at something out of the typical format. The main issue is that it wasn’t taken as far as the writers seem to think it was.

rnwhocares
January 14th, 2006, 07:07 AM
Ok...this was aweful! How many times do we have to learn about Mitchell's past through flashbacks?

Oh, and can I say deja vu??? This was Voyager all over again, but I felt more for Tom Paris than I did Mitchell.

Did anyone else catch the major slam to Daniel in the conference room? First Mitchell slams Daniel then the Landry backs up Mitchell and pretty much puts Daniel in his place.

Then the camera shaking all over the place. I don't watch BG (since I'm a fan of the original and refuse to watch the new one), but I've seen enough of the commercials to know that they like to do the motion camera thing and I don't like it for SG1.

Right now I'm watching Atlantis and it's way better (I loved Rodney's "Conan and Xena" comment).

I also found it odd that Mitchell was so willing to pull strings for this girl. And then go off with her. Man, I'm praying he's not some Kirk wannabe. (Even though I loved Kirk).
I caught the slam of Daniel thing going on. And once again he is right, but does anyone give him credit-------NOOOOOOOOOOOO.

nccjones
January 14th, 2006, 07:27 AM
Um, isn't that what we JUST WATCHED this evening? :S

Nope, it's not what I saw. I saw an episode that was totally a Mitchell show to learn about his past because the TPTB feel that we can't learn about him as we go along. I really don't call this a team episode, because how many words did Teal'c say? What did Daniel really do except run back and forth to the emmissary with Teal'c on his heals? I didn't get the team feeling. Sorry. :(

I was ready to drop the issue, and as Dani347 says in his signature "I'll say what I dang well please about an episode, and if you don't like it well ain't that too bad. And, no, I won't shut up and accept things." So this is how I feel about the episode and Mitchell....so let's leave it at that.

James_the_Wraith_Sympathiser
January 14th, 2006, 07:29 AM
Without going into too much detail...it was a very good episode...is this the first standalone ep this season? I think it might be...Ex Deus Machina was kinda setting up the Ba'al angle...

Good Mitchell backstory, good dialogue (come on, Daniels' "On Earth we prove guilt" line wasn't THAT bad :P), and good to have SG-1 back working as a team, rather than split all over the place.

I got lucky with my prediction for the villian, I guessed it quite early on, but that was more by luck than judgement, as I thought that the Emissary being guilty was too obvious.

Looking forward to Ripple Effect!

Oh, and while I'm still on the subject - just remember everyone, not all of us have seen every science fiction show in existence, some of us haven't even seen every Stargate episode yet.

Just because an idea has been used in Star Trek doesn't immediately make a Stargate ep with similar idea null and void. Even if an episode of Stargate Atlantis has a similar theme to an SG-1 episode, doesn't immediately make the episode bad (e.g. Entity -> Intruder). In science fiction there probably aren't too many ideas left that haven't been touched on, so there's bound to be some overlap.

Formerhost
January 14th, 2006, 07:31 AM
The "kirking" criticism kills me. So, because Kirk slept around a lot, no character is ever allowed to have a bit of romance in a Scifi show?! Sheesh. Poor Cam. I bet he hasn't been with a girl in a long time, and the time he meets someone nice, she's murdered! I wouldn't call that "kirking"!

Agree completely.

James_the_Wraith_Sympathiser
January 14th, 2006, 07:36 AM
Agree completely.

I concur.

OriKiller
January 14th, 2006, 07:40 AM
Okay, basic ripoff of a Star trek Voyager episode which probably ripped off something else, but with an interesting twist at the end, and some good backstory on Mitchell which (please excuse me while I diverge over to SGA for a second - WHY can't they do the same for Sheppard??? - rant over).

But overall, decent for a remake and I like the Mitchell stuff.

You mean there's someone out there that actually watched Voyager? :cameron:

Seriously, I thought it was great. For the first time, we have an honest to goodness one-off episode where we get some background on Cameron beyond the official service record. This is what I have been waiting half a season to see. There still wasn't much for Sam fans but hopefully she'll get to shine in future episodes. In the meantime, it's very important to develop our main character. We need to know who he is and what makes him tick, and Collateral Damage was a great start.

Formerhost
January 14th, 2006, 07:44 AM
Um, isn't that what we JUST WATCHED this evening? :S

Exactly!

Very good episode. I'm finally starting to really like Mitchell.

Arative
January 14th, 2006, 07:45 AM
I thought this was a good character driven episode and enjoyed learning more about what makes Mitchell tick. It was nice to see why he is so driven. I'm glad that there wasn't so many one-liners quips in this episode, somehow those just seem off to me coming from the new guy and Mitchell seems to me to be a more serious person than that.

I liked the camera work on the memory shots, all jerky and washed out.

I didn't mind the kirking really, it moved the plot along but you know since man first went to the stars, he's dreamed of making it with a hot alien chick!! I think it would have been better if Mitchell and the lady hadn't of been making out or anything and the husband misinterpted it and killed her, would have been more bittersweet for the ending in my book.

I thought it was interesting that an Asgard protected world had progressed so far technologically since the othere protected planets we've seen have been stuck in the stone age or middle ages. Makes me wonder how many other worlds were protected by the Asgard in order to advance far enough to challenge the Gou'ald.

James_the_Wraith_Sympathiser
January 14th, 2006, 07:51 AM
Good post OriKiller.

Agreed that Sam has had less chance in the spotlight, however to be fair, hadn't she had some time off for maternity? perhaps the writers deliberately gave her some less demanding duties for the first part of season 9...

Zoser
January 14th, 2006, 08:03 AM
Trying to be positive - This is the first of Season 9 that I managed to stay awake throughout. I thought it was indeed the best of the season.
However it did bring to mind 'Kirk syndrome' and shades of the 'Vorlex' (if I forget I did wrong, I guess I'm innocent)

SierraGulf1
January 14th, 2006, 08:12 AM
While I've enjoyed season 9, I definitely felt that the "feel" of the episodes was less SG-1ish. Remarkably, that was not the case in this episode. In addition to that, we get a look into Mitchell's character.

I usually just ignore romance unless it's necessary to the plot. Perhaps our dear Cam is following in the footsteps of John. No matter.

All in all, I liked this one. I still have favorites from earlier in the season, but this one was nice and solid. The second half seems less Ori-ful (save perhaps Ethon, Crusade, and Camelot), and I do like the Ori, but I'd like a pleasant break in between to develop character.

Bloody lookin' forward to next week, anyone see the ad where Mitchell shot... Mitchell? :cameronanime08b: I never really considered that an AU SG-1 could be hostile. Plus, of course, we've got RIPPLE EFFECT SPOILER: Janet and Martouf coming back. Bring on Friday.

Jace021903
January 14th, 2006, 08:23 AM
This is the second episode in a row where I was watching the clock, I am sad to say.

I like Mitchell quite a bit and I think Ben is a terrific actor--I was particularly impressed by his performance after he recalled the accidental airstrike.

But

I think this type of story would work best for me as, say, an episode of the Outer Limits or something because it just didn't feel like SG-1 to me.

If they want me to feel for Cam, they have to let Daniel, Sam and Teal'c feel for Cam and I didn't get that sense from them. There were some half-hearted attempts but I never got a real sense of urgency or concern. Maybe it would help if they let SG-1 actually share a few scenes together.

The flashbacks to Cam's past had some nice moments, but didn't give us a whole lot of new information other than Cam is following the example set by
Dad to be a guy that doesn't give up.

Things I did like:

As mentioned before, Ben's performance.

I liked the doctor--I remember her from the TV series "The Sentinel"--I thought she had some nice scenes with Cam. But honestly, these people have got to stop with the kissy face off world, it just gets them into all kinds of trouble. :)

I kept changing my mind about who I thought was guilty, and I was intrigued by the twist at the end that there is a murderer than doesn't remember his crime. The ending was kind of dark and made me wonder what other kinds of things this government will do with the memory technology--could be scary.

So, a mixed review on this one. Some nice bits, but the big picture was lacking something.

macktheknife
January 14th, 2006, 08:30 AM
I thought this was the 2nd best ep of the season (best is Prototype) the opening was unlike any SG1\SGA I've seen before (the closest I would say is SGA's Aurora), the opening reminded me of the game Manhunt, if you know that game, the opening\memory was similar to that game (and it's similar murders).

I kept thinking "Evil Emmisary" and then the twist, I did'nt think that the guy would have removed his own memory.

AND to all you "kirk haters" HE WAS'NT KIRKING. He was being USED. The girl knew he would be able to help her keep her position and control (similary to how Weir on SGA has her position backed by the international council group), and how better to "seal the deal" for her to give him some lovin.

Plus we don't know when the husband walked back in, it could have been 2 mins later, he walks in, sees her starting mictchell up, so he stuns him, then argues with her, then out comes the statue.

Good twist with the guy who did it, then removed the evidence, and then worked to find the truth, then the chilling realisation he did it himself. Then the very cold and calculated "memory swap" giving him the "it was an accident". I wonder if they do that to the other guy, he now has to work with a guy he knows murdered someone.

EDIT - I almost totally forgot.

Of all the planes to make me enjoy this ep more, VIPER! Hell Yes. The only plane I would like more is an A-10, but then he would be a mud mover not a fly boy.

binkpmmc
January 14th, 2006, 09:10 AM
"it moved the plot along but you know since man first went to the stars, he's dreamed of making it with a hot alien chick!!"

After 7 years of a well-written intelligent sci-fi drama that never had to rely on these types of ordinary, cheesy sci-fi cliches now, IMO, the show feels it needs to become just another less-than-mediocre sci-fi by bringing in and relying on cheap cliches to move the plot along or to just plain make the show look stupid (and that is MO as I have watched it for 8 years and now have watched it degenerate in a very short span of time -- it is not a comment on those who may like it -- I think it's silly, foolish and stupid sci-fi cliche - others don't. That's the great thing about a free democratic nation - everyone is free to have their own opinions and is free to state them.)

Dani347
January 14th, 2006, 09:18 AM
So Mitchell is working out Daddy issues.

I wouldn't exactly describe it as issues. Yeah, his dad went through a traumatic experience that I think shaped some aspect of Mitchell's character, but he still seemed to have a very strong relationship with him. I didn't get a sense of him being haunted by his dad, or had a difficult time with him. Or that he was fighting his reputation or anything like that. Just that his perserverance was an example for Mitchell. I thought it was a relatively non issue childhood.

Domesticated Equine
January 14th, 2006, 09:20 AM
I think this was the best episode of the season and the first I've actually liked. I really don't care for the season's story arc so unlike in other shows I actually prefer stand-alone episodes such as this.

It was great to get some character development for Mitchell and for the first time I actually cared about his character. I like Browder now that he's given something to work with.

The episode wasn't without its problems, the plot wasn't all that original or exciting although I did like the twist with the killer. Mitchell flirting with and kissing the scientist felt really unprofessional and contrived. But fortunately, this time the good outweighed the bad.

MarshAngel
January 14th, 2006, 09:26 AM
It was a good episode in terms of finally fleshing out Cam the way he needed to be. It was a nice single episode but they still have more work to do making SG1 feel like a team.
I enjoyed seeing a modern alien planet again; haven't seen that in a while with all the dusty Jaffa and the robes.

The story itself however is old hat. The first thing I thought of when I heard the summary was a Star Trek Voyager episode with Tom Paris and some guy's wife which incidentally was a rip off of the TNG episode with Riker and some guy's wife.... well it wasn't original and it's one scifi theme I'm not particularly fond of. It's ok to reuse ideas but it would have been less obvious if there had been a secondary plot where they could have made better use of other characters. Daniel and Teal'c were just standing around much of the time.

Zelda
January 14th, 2006, 09:27 AM
Liked the action part of the murder; the new camera angles, lighting and direction were all very interesting. The scene where Mitchell wakes up and discovers blood on his hands and his confusion and horror at what unfolds--all were very well done.

I liked the flirtation and the kissing scene, also very well done. Judging how this one turns out, I expect Cameron will have a few reservations before hitting on the next off world female. Too bad, Mitchell looks like an excellent kisser. The Kirk syndrome--the SG1 male team members are all single so I don't have a problem with it. Sam has had a few relationships, hasn't hurt her intelligence as far as I can tell. Both Teal'c and Daniel have had serious and not so series connections of the female type. Personally, I hope Cameron has a lot of lady friends or an ex-wife that show up with regularity. I enjoy learning about the personal lives of the team members.

Liked the back story about Cam and the relationship with his father and also the story about the missile. His insistance on knowing who was killed and his remorse. Bits and pieces of life experience that make him who he is.

I liked seeing Mitchell in street clothes.

MediaSavant
January 14th, 2006, 09:27 AM
And deep down I have to admit I enjoyed seeing an "emotional" side of Stargate. Makes a nice change from explosions and guns.

It's not deep down to me. I know on the surface that I prefer a character-driven show. I think I enjoy character-centric stories more than an episode like last week's where everything felt shallow despite there being a situation that should have carried some emotional wallop.

This still wasn't "great drama" like BSG is on a weekly basis or like Farscape used to be. But, it was a tad more engaging than last week.

I liked the fleshing out of Mitchell's background and I think it's unfair to say this is being forced. It's overdue and needed. When you have new characters being paired with characters that have been around the number of years the other three have, it creates an imbalance of knowing very little about one character and a boatload about everyone else.

If anything was "forced", I'd have to go back to last week when there was a whole Gen'l Hammond scene that wasn't necessary for the storyline and totally thrown in as a bone for fans.

If something serves the story, I'm fine with it. IMO, it serves the overall Stargate story to fix the imbalance on how little we knew about Mitchell vs. the other characters.

Arative
January 14th, 2006, 09:29 AM
"it moved the plot along but you know since man first went to the stars, he's dreamed of making it with a hot alien chick!!"

After 7 years of a well-written intelligent sci-fi drama that never had to rely on these types of ordinary, cheesy sci-fi cliches now, IMO, the show feels it needs to become just another less-than-mediocre sci-fi by bringing in and relying on cheap cliches to move the plot along or to just plain make the show look stupid (and that is MO as I have watched it for 8 years and now have watched it degenerate in a very short span of time -- it is not a comment on those who may like it -- I think it's silly, foolish and stupid sci-fi cliche - others don't. That's the great thing about a free democratic nation - everyone is free to have their own opinions and is free to state them.)

Really, do you remember the early seasons of SG-1? How about the one where Jack was drugged with nanites that aged him and he made it with that alien? Or how about the one where Daniel falls for the girl that put him the the sarcoghous? I'm sure there are a few others that I've forgetten to mention but they've always used the girl to move along the plot in Stargate. This episode was no different.

Beal
January 14th, 2006, 09:37 AM
I knew it was him as soon as he said it was his wife, I wasn't surprised at all.

It was nice to see SG-1 skip the stupid "did you do it cam?" moment though. Skip right to the good parts, I say.

Zelda
January 14th, 2006, 09:46 AM
I forgot to mention: My question has to do with the transfer and implantation of the murderer's memory into Mitchell's brain. Did the killer drag Mitchell back to the lab and do the switch or was it a portable device he happened to be carrying with him? I think it was mentioned the memory had to be a precise placement to be undetectible. Sorry, just seemed like a big plot hole to me.

cajnjirl
January 14th, 2006, 09:56 AM
I found this ep interesting and well done. A nice change.

I enjoyed seeing into Mitchell's past as opposed to hearing about it. I'm not bothered by the Father Issues. Nearly everyone I know has a parent thing to deal with, myself included.

The flirting and kissing was delightful. It was very well done and also hot and sweet. But we barely got to see Cam get his lips wet. :( I'm not worried in the least about 'kirking' Mitchell. If his goal was to sleep with every hot alien chick, wouldn't he have bagged Vala? ;) NEWSFLASH: Grown-ups occasionally have sex with people they like. Alcohol increases the odds.

Makes me think Mitchell was married before.

Nice twist with the husband being the killer.

Wasn't young Mitchell the cutest kid? :)

AGateFan
January 14th, 2006, 09:59 AM
I forgot to mention: My question has to do with the transfer and implantation of the murderer's memory into Mitchell's brain. Did the killer drag Mitchell back to the lab and do the switch or was it a portable device he happened to be carrying with him? I think it was mentioned the memory had to be a precise placement to be undetectible. Sorry, just seemed like a big plot hole to me.
Yep, thats a really really good question. Maybe the head researcher lady had a prototype in her apartment ;). Kinda seems like a security breach though.

So the guy stuns Mitchell, murders his wife, carries Mitchell out to his car (or whatever), takes him to the lab (where there are no cameras) does the memory thing (mitchell never wakes up). Drags Mitchell back out to the car (whatever), takes him back to the house and stages the scene (if you watch actual crime documentary stuff, this is really hard to do in a way that would not be detectable). Then he drives back to the lab and uses the device again to erase his own memory (not questioning himself after the fact to wonder why he was in the chair).

Shouldnt they have cameras and computer logs that watch that device?

But then, like you said, maybe they have a portable version... so then why have the big version if the portable one works so well.... Oh well, this really wasnt glaring to me until you mentioned it and I was able to suspend belief through it, so I will chalk it up to "just one of those things".

Quinn Mallory
January 14th, 2006, 10:24 AM
This was a clever episode in how it introduced us to Mitchell's past, which was also powerfully done.

Yeah, it suffer from the usual mystery show in that you know the murderer is someone who is introduced in the episode and even though it could've been the ambasssador, you know it's not since they didn't have the time to add more interaction between the ambassodor and the dead scientist to distract us.

Anyhow, I don't quite understand the complaint of people with Cam hooking up with the alien scientists (or Shep hooking up with alien chicks in SGA). It's a TV show and sex often is incorporated one way or another. I guess one can say that the promiscuit was more common in the 80's, early-90's TV than it is now, but it is more of a general TV cliche than a sci-fi cliche.

Quinn Mallory
January 14th, 2006, 10:27 AM
Wasn't young Mitchell the cutest kid? :)

I didn't think the kid had much resemblance to Ben Browder but than again, I didn't think the actor in Fragile Balanced looked like RDA. Not that it make me enjoy the show any less or anything.

AGateFan
January 14th, 2006, 10:30 AM
This was a clever episode in how it introduced us to Mitchell's past, which was also powerfully done.

Yeah, it suffer from the usual mystery show in that you know the murderer is someone who is introduced in the episode and even though it could've been the ambasssador, you know it's not since they didn't have the time to add more interaction between the ambassodor and the dead scientist to distract us.

Anyhow, I don't quite understand the complaint of people with Cam hooking up with the alien scientists (or Shep hooking up with alien chicks in SGA). It's a TV show and sex often is incorporated one way or another. I guess one can say that the promiscuit was more common in the 80's, early-90's TV than it is now, but it is more of a general TV cliche than a sci-fi cliche.
There are some of us that beleive that one of the reasons Stargate was better then other shows was they rarely delved into the cliche "alien chick who thinks the hero is hot". Many of the earlier eps where it happend "Brief candel" and "Need" had extenuating circumstances. And episodes where it happened where there were no extenuating circumstances "affinity" (earth chick alien hero) were really not that good of a Stargate ep... IMHO.

shiznaw
January 14th, 2006, 10:58 AM
Anyhow, I don't quite understand the complaint of people with Cam hooking up with the alien scientists (or Shep hooking up with alien chicks in SGA). It's a TV show and sex often is incorporated one way or another. I guess one can say that the promiscuit was more common in the 80's, early-90's TV than it is now, but it is more of a general TV cliche than a sci-fi cliche.

I believe that you've just pointed out the main reason why many of the sci-fi TV shows had never lasted past 4 seasons. Famed Galactic Human hero :boinking: the alien gurl has morphed into such a cliche, Stargate was a breath of fresh air.

Yeah....operative word...was

nccjones
January 14th, 2006, 11:02 AM
Many of the earlier eps where it happend "Brief candel" and "Need" had extenuating circumstances. And episodes where it happened where there were no extenuating circumstances "affinity" (earth chick alien hero) were really not that good of a Stargate ep... IMHO.

Exactly...In Brief Candle, Jack was drugged. He had no idea he did anything with the girl until the next morning when he woke up. Even after that he pretty much stayed away from her. Same with Daniel in Need. Daniel was still very much in love with and searching for Sha're. I don't believe he would intentionally make love to another woman. The girl in Need was using Daniel by putting him in the sarc to get him addicted. It became a drug to him and she pretty much seduced him after that...oh, same with Hathor.

I call this a Kirking episode, because Mitchell did have the hots for the alien babe. He definately wanted more. Yeah, she seduced him along, but there were no drugs involved. Alot of alien females seduced Kirk and he was happy as all get out to be with them. Yep...Kirking to me.

Mattathias2.0
January 14th, 2006, 11:09 AM
I enjoyed this episode. I don't think it was a rip-off, except of the show itself (Beneath The Surface and Revisions).

I loved the twist at the end... and have a feeling we will be seeing these people soon (esp with politicians on our side interested in the technology).

I liked most of all the backround on Mitchell. Reminds me somewhat of Secrets and Cold Lazarus.

Mattathias

Ziu
January 14th, 2006, 11:37 AM
Not one of the best episodes actaully i didn't like it all and it was very predictable. The one good thing was it does develop mitchells character a bit more
Only episode 219 - One False Step - was worse than this one.

Don't make a show if you don't want to spend the money.

Dani347
January 14th, 2006, 11:44 AM
Only episode 219 - One False Step - was worse than this one.



Hee! And, One False Step is one of my favorite episodes.

Osiris-RA
January 14th, 2006, 11:54 AM
Hey! That ep was hilarious! :D

golfbooy
January 14th, 2006, 12:14 PM
Since I'm sure you all are just waiting with baited breath to hear my thoughts on Collateral Damage, I'll delay your moment of divine rapture no longer. (Hey, I like my delusions, so don't ruin them for me.)

My feelings on this one are rather mixed. For all it had going for it, I can't help but be overcome by the boring tediousness which seems to accompany Cameron Mitchell wherever he may go. For a good long while now many fans have bemoaned the lack of back story for Mitchell and have been chomping at the bit for an episode to showcase Ben Browder's talent as an actor. This episode was constructed purely to mollify such concerns on behalf of the audience, albeit in a rather static and uninteresting way. Someone previously said that this felt more like The Outer Limits than SG-1. The premise is certainly of that bent, but this lacked the moral or ethical focus that an Outer Limits story would have had. Had this one been a little more about weighing the positives and negatives of the technology, more about the inherent rightness or wrongness of everyone's actions during the course of the episode, then it would have had that "punch" that The Outer Limits often pulled off. As it is, this one lacked such an emotional core, and was the poorer for it.

I'll start by saying, as others already have, that the best part of Collateral Damage was the most welcome return of a true stand-alone episode to SG-1. No pesky Ori, no righteous Jaffa council meetings, no Goa'uld--just SG-1 by themselves on a planet. Many of the show's most important and illuminating episodes have taken place in the absence of overwhelming "big plot" elements, and much of what is characterized as the "stargate feeling" comes from the interaction with different alien cultures. Seeing it again here, I still feel that this episode structure suits the show and I wish that more future episodes would harken back to this simple, less convoluted formula. Take a new culture, add a new technology, throw in some well-defined but not overriding guest characters, and you've got yourself a nice little set-up to showcase the SG-1 team.

Of course, that's where this one hits a damned roadblock. Collateral Damage doesn't showcase the SG-1 team. It barely showcases Mitchell, and what it does tell us about him isn't necessarily gripping or endearing. The story just unfolds around the team, they play no real part in it. SG-1 is reduced merely to a group of observers, and even the tension of Mitchell's possible prosecution is swept away before it becomes an issue. The story's bite, while present for the first third of the episode, is gone after any real consequences of the murder are brushed aside. We're simply left with an exercise in pedantry, with the story plodding along from points A to B to C. Even Cam himself is stuck following the plot rather than driving it.

While I didn't really have a problem with it, my brother absolutely hated Mitchell's behavior in this one. OK, fine, he's flirting with a woman--it happens. But what's with ditching SG-1 and their diplomatic mission on the off chance that he'll get to score with the hot chick? I'm pretty sure that's not the standard way of representing your planet. Even more heinous is his offering to use Earth's political leverage to keep Dr. Varrick attached to the project. Of course, it's not because he thinks she's vital to Earth's interests or because she's being mistreated, but because he wants to ingratiate himself, personally, to her. I'm pretty sure that's not the way SG-1 traditionally acts off world either. And even when he's back at Dr. Varrick's apartment and actually articulates that "this is a mistake", he still doesn't do the right thing. Whether Cam actually had time to score with Reya before the murder is neither here nor there, it's that he fully intended to regardless of any consequences that speaks so badly to his character. Obviously there were plot concerns at work with this whole situation, but they don't erase the fact that it still happened and that Cam's actions jeopardized Earth's position with the Galarens.

As for the backstory on Cam, meh. Modest irony with the amputee father, nice relationship between father and son, bad experience with a bombing run once. I'm not sure there's anything there that's particularly unusal for most military familes. I just didn't get the feeling of anything more than an information dump from the flashbacks. And, while I recognize this to be a personal taste, I found Browder's acting while experiencing them over again to be rather vacant. I don't feel that he engaged anyone with the trauma of his past, not the SG-1 team and certainly not the audience. I'd have also preferred there to be more to the story besides Cam's past. Comparing this with how we learned about the rest of SG-1's histories in episodes like Bloodlines, Jolinar's Memories, and Crystal Skull, this one seems all the flatter to me.

Carter, Daniel, and Teal'c. I wish there was more to say about them. In the past they'd have each warranted their own paragraph, but such is not the case recently. More's the pity. They all stood around and looked nice, and they even got a word or two in edgewise occaisonally. But they played no role in the story beyond simply standing around. Sam got to babysit Cameron just like she got to babysit Orlin last week. Way to go on that one. Daniel got to chat rather pleasantly with William Atherton's character. And Teal'c got to follow Daniel around. Super. And what on earth is with Landry actually allowing Mitchell to stay on the planet after being accused of murder, then being told he's free to leave? I'm sorry, but what kind of a half-assed decision is that? Carter was absolutely right to warn Cam about being strangers to the Galarens' justice system. SG-1 has been in similar situations many, many times. Carter was right to suggest that Mitchell return to Earth. I only wish that Landry would have insisted on his return at the subsequent briefing instead of capitulating to Mitchell's overly emotional need to remain behind. Landry, first and foremost, should be protecting his people. And I don't think he did that here.

In the end, I would probably rate Collateral Damage as so-so. It did the job, but lacked any of the unique touches that SG-1 used to add to average stories. And I don't necessarily think that Mitchell was helped by the story. The character is floundering around in the Stargate Universe all by his lonesome. Here, just like in Babylon, the only way to meaningfully showcase him is to serverely and wrongly diminish all of the other characters on the show. Nobody else gets anything in Collateral Damage because Mitchell or Ben Browder needs the screen. It's the kind of thing that illustrates exactly what never happened with Jack O'neill and RDA. Somehow all of the characters got involved when he was around, and that has not been happening in Season Nine. What most aggreived me was that last scene with Mitchell. Here is a real chance for him to have some kind of meaningful interaction with anyone from his team. What the hell was Landry doing there? That should have been either Daniel, Teal'c, or Sam in that lockeroom with Cameron. Those are exactly the kind of scenes that SG-1 is missing this year, and this one was wasted. Cam is no closer to being "one of the team" after this episode, and that scene could have done it for him. What a waste.

I'm tremedously looking forward to Ripple Effect, though. Bring it on.

jckfan55
January 14th, 2006, 12:19 PM
Not a great episode, but it was good to see some Mitchell back story. I think his dad was the most interesting element of the whole thing. The team didn't do much in this one, but at least they were all on the planet together and seemed to be working toward the same goal of helping Cam.

Seshat
January 14th, 2006, 12:35 PM
But what's with ditching SG-1 and their diplomatic mission on the off chance that he'll get to score with the hot chick? I'm pretty sure that's not the standard way of representing your planet. Even more heinous is his offering to use Earth's political leverage to keep Dr. Varrick attached to the project. Of course, it's not because he thinks she's vital to Earth's interests or because she's being mistreated, but because he wants to ingratiate himself, personally, to her. I'm pretty sure that's not the way SG-1 traditionally acts off world either. And even when he's back at Dr. Varrick's apartment and actually articulates that "this is a mistake", he still doesn't do the right thing. Whether Cam actually had time to score with Reya before the murder is neither here nor there, it's that he fully intended to regardless of any consequences that speaks so badly to his character. Obviously there were plot concerns at work with this whole situation, but they don't erase the fact that it still happened and that Cam's actions jeopardized Earth's position with the Galarens. I didn't really think much about the inappropriateness of Cam's behavior and what it potentially says about his character's judgement until I read your post, but then I realized something. Can you even imagine Daniel, Teal'c or Sam acting this same way at a party on a diplomatic mission to an alien planet? Hmmm? Going home with the first available hottie while on duty?

In terms of any ordinary scifi show plot device, I wouldn't care. But this is SG1! They are supposed to be the elite team of the SGC and representatives of our entire planet. Seems a bit tawdry for a team member somehow.

Now I'm not saying that Cam doesn't deserve to get some from time to time. He's a good-looking, healthy American boy after all (yum!). But in retrospect, his choices in this situation seem very ill-advised to me.

Unless he was taking Jack at his word that once he joined SG1 he could "do anything he wanted." :rolleyes:

Dani347
January 14th, 2006, 12:39 PM
Even more heinous is his offering to use Earth's political leverage to keep Dr. Varrick attached to the project. Of course, it's not because he thinks she's vital to Earth's interests or because she's being mistreated, but because he wants to ingratiate himself, personally, to her.


Now, see, as much as I hated the whole thing with Mitchell and the doctor, I did think that he felt she was being mistreated. Yeah, he had the hots for her, but I also thought that he felt that it was unfair to take her off the project after she had done the work.

Seshat:

Now I'm not saying that Cam doesn't deserve to get some from time to time. He's a good-looking, healthy American boy after all (yum!). But in retrospect, his choices in this situation seem very ill-advised to me.

True. And, I really don't need to see any of them "get some" I mean, I never see them brush their teeth or go to the bathroom, or a lot of things, and it doesn't bother me, because it's beyond the scope of what their showing about their lives.

I watched again, and I've pinpointed the one thing that sounded to Jackish. The "I hope there'll be dancing." The manner and just the line itself just seemed like that to me.

AGateFan
January 14th, 2006, 12:45 PM
Now, see, as much as I hated the whole thing with Mitchell and the doctor, I did think that he felt she was being mistreated. Yeah, he had the hots for her, but I also thought that he felt that it was unfair to take her off the project after she had done the work.

Seshat:


True. And, I really don't need to see any of them "get some" I mean, I never see them brush their teeth or go to the bathroom, or a lot of things, and it doesn't bother me, because it's beyond the scope of what their showing about their lives.

I watched again, and I've pinpointed the one thing that sounded to Jackish. The "I hope there'll be dancing." The manner and just the line itself just seemed like that to me.
But he really didnt "know". As someone else here said it kinda seemed like he was being "played". How do we know shes not just some power hungry individual. Mitch would be more advised not to entangle himself in such situations especially if he doesnt really know all the details.... THE OTHER SIDE anyone.

golfbooy
January 14th, 2006, 12:47 PM
I didn't really think much about the inappropriateness of Cam's behavior and what it potentially says about his character's judgement until I read your post, but then I realized something. Can you even imagine Daniel, Teal'c or Sam acting this same way at a party on a diplomatic mission to an alien planet? Hmmm? Going home with the first available hottie while on duty?

In terms of any ordinary scifi show plot device, I wouldn't care. But this is SG1! They are supposed to be the elite team of the SGC and representatives of our entire planet. Seems a bit tawdry for a team member somehow.

Now I'm not saying that Cam doesn't deserve to get some from time to time. He's a good-looking, healthy American boy after all (yum!). But in retrospect, his choices in this situation seem very ill-advised to me.

Unless he was taking Jack at his word that once he joined SG1 he could "do anything he wanted." :rolleyes:

Yeah, that's what stood out so much to me. I really don't care that Cam found Dr. Varrick attractive. She was. I don't even mind the flirting he was doing with her following the initial test or during the reception. However I didn't like that Carter, Daniel, and Teal'c seemed to be the one actually carrying out the mission while Cam chatted her up. I mean, as you said, they were on duty. This was the mission. And Cameron just seemed to be ignoring it. Then, he tells Carter, Teal'c, and Daniel that he'll be right back, then proceeds to ditch them and go home with Varrick. Shouldn't he have at least told the rest of the team he was taking off? I don't know. I recognize that the whole romance bit was a plot device (when isn't it anymore?), but I thought it could have been handled more appropriately. Cam and Varrick were definitely into each other, and that's all well and good. But Mitchell's first responsibility has to be to SG-1 and to the mission. I just got the impression that that wasn't the case here.

Dani347
January 14th, 2006, 12:51 PM
But he really didnt "know". As someone else here said it kinda seemed like he was being "played". How do we know shes not just some power hungry individual. Mitch would be more advised not to entangle himself in such situations especially if he doesnt really know all the details.... THE OTHER SIDE anyone.


Oh, I'm not saying it wouldn't have been prudent to stay out of it. I meant that to me, his motivation for offering to try and use his influence came off to me as genuinely feeling that she had been mistreated (even if he didn't know) rather than just wanting leverage to get into her pants. I did like that he said he'd try. He didn't promise that he could do it, or that anyone would do anything strictly on his word, just that he'd make the attempt.


I really don't care that Cam found Dr. Varrick attractive. She was. I don't even mind the flirting he was doing with her following the initial test or during the reception. Then, he tells Carter, Teal'c, and Daniel that he'll be right back, then proceeds to ditch them and go home with Varrick.

Yeah, I didn't mind the initial flirting. I thought it was cute that the others teased him about it. It was when he went home with her, they started kissing, he said he knew he shouldn't be doing it, and just kept on. Maybe if he had started kissing her, and then after he acknowledged that he was wrong and stopped, it would have been better. Although, I could have done without the whole scene alltogether.

LoneStar1836
January 14th, 2006, 12:59 PM
This episode was a let down. :(

After seeing the previews for it last week, I was really looking forward to it because it was going to be Mitchell centric, (and I soooo want to like him. I mean do, but I want more. More for the character to do than just spout some one-liners.), but boy did I come away disappointed. Not exactly the character centric episode I was looking for. Yes we got backstory, but that’s not exactly what I was hoping for in this episode. I don’t know. The episode just didn’t do anything for me. It was too bland. I just wasn’t that invested in what the outcome of Mitchell’s predicament would be or Mitchell himself.

I just didn’t find the episode that compelling. No real jeopardy, no real suspense. No team feel in the sense that I didn’t really get the feeling that they were all that concerned about Mitchell’s plight. Since they weren't, neither was I. The twist wasn’t all that great either. I knew it couldn’t have been that head dude in black because he was WAY too obvious. Woohoo jealous ex killed her....and then he has his memory erased.

I would like to see the relationship he has with Sam developed more (and no, NOT that kind of relationship ;)). This episode took a step in that direction but I hope some more of the history between them is eventually revealed. I like the friendship aspect those two share.

Some nice little insight into CM, but are they going to incorporate that past into his character through his actions/personality in the future? Again tonight they had his dad saying Mitchell is destined to do great things or some such sentiment. I’m tired of being told directly how great he is supposed to be. Show me dammit. Though I did like that scene at the end with he and his father, but that stupid line was rather jarring.

Hmm, I was even kind of a little disappointed in Ben’s acting, especially at one point I was like geez Ben I’m really not feeling you here, emotionally. And I’m a BB fan. :(

I guess I'm just disappointed because, emotionally, I just wasn't pulled into this episode. I've given up on any really intellegent, compelling plot coming from SG-1 writers, but I would hope to at least be able to care about these characters. Maybe I need to go back and watch it a second time and take another reading on the episode because my initial reaction was less than stellar.

Episode gets a “meh.”

golfbooy
January 14th, 2006, 01:08 PM
Now, see, as much as I hated the whole thing with Mitchell and the doctor, I did think that he felt she was being mistreated. Yeah, he had the hots for her, but I also thought that he felt that it was unfair to take her off the project after she had done the work.


No, I agree with that. I do believe that Mitchell obviously felt she was being mistreated. And he was right; it would have been unfair to pull her from the project. I just think that Cam was way overstepping his authority to offer to use Earth's potential trade agreement with these people as leverage to keep her on the project. Maybe it's not so much even that as it is that he did it without consulting anyone else, even if it was just the rest of SG-1. And I still don't think that Cam's offer was entirely selfless. He did want to appear noble and not as just another military man. For me, it's Mitchell's knowing disregard that "he shouldn't be doing this" that makes it appear that his offer to help Varrick was born of a desire to score with her. As Varrick said at the house, he wouldn't have gone home with her if he didn't want to be with her.

ann_sgcfan
January 14th, 2006, 01:19 PM
Really, do you remember the early seasons of SG-1? How about the one where Jack was drugged with nanites that aged him and he made it with that alien? Or how about the one where Daniel falls for the girl that put him the the sarcoghous? I'm sure there are a few others that I've forgetten to mention but they've always used the girl to move along the plot in Stargate. This episode was no different.


Jack ate cake and therefore was drugged by Kynthia. Cam left without telling his team where he was going and willing drank while on duty. I have a problem with this and the Kirking in the episode. He doesn't seem to have the team mindset that I would like. The bit about his father was touching and we were able to see more into what happened to him in the past, but I still want to see him interact with the team. Why would they believe he was innocent so willingly and drop the part of him killing innocent people without concern and asking him for some explanation. He is walking into a team that has been together for over 8 years. They know how each other think, react, what they have over come and have done in the past. They don't know anything about this guy, except he is pilot. Belonging to the SGC doesn't automatically make him a good guy. Anyone remember Col. Robert Makepeace? I want to know why they would willingly follow this guy into battle if they ever had too.

NotAscended
January 14th, 2006, 01:19 PM
No, I agree with that. I do believe that Mitchell obviously felt she was being mistreated. And he was right; it would have been unfair to pull her from the project. I just think that Cam was way overstepping his authority to offer to use Earth's potential trade agreement with these people as leverage to keep her on the project. Maybe it's not so much even that as it is that he did it without consulting anyone else, even if it was just the rest of SG-1. And I still don't think that Cam's offer was entirely selfless. He did want to appear noble and not as just another military man. For me, it's Mitchell's knowing disregard that "he shouldn't be doing this" that makes it appear that his offer to help Varrick was born of a desire to score with her. As Varrick said at the house, he wouldn't have gone home with her if he didn't want to be with her.

Cam's behavior did certainly seem out of character for an SG-1 member. However, is it possible that part of his behavior stemmed from having already had a memory of an interaction with this woman implanted in his head? The Emissary's memory was introduced when they showed them the technology. That person may have had a personal connection with the woman that made him feel like he knew her better than he actually did. He certainly had a very unusual reaction when he got to her apartment, feeling like he had been there before. It seems like there are some real gray areas in interpreting WHY Cam would be offering to walk her home and acting so familiar with a woman he had just met. On one side, there's just the "hot alien chick" factor, but on the other side, there's the "I already have memories of you in my head" factor.

edited because I just remembered whose memory was implanted in his head

ShimmeringStar
January 14th, 2006, 01:21 PM
I didn't really think much about the inappropriateness of Cam's behavior and what it potentially says about his character's judgement until I read your post, but then I realized something. Can you even imagine Daniel, Teal'c or Sam acting this same way at a party on a diplomatic mission to an alien planet? Hmmm? Going home with the first available hottie while on duty? That's what I was concerned about in my first post on this thread. To the jaded TV viewer part of me, it didn't surprise me because the 'new and improved' direction of the show has been heavy on the T&A content and it was only a matter of time before their new male lead was hooked up with *somebody.*

But immediately the SG fan in me said "Wait a minute!" Because unless they were under alien influences (Need, Brief Candle) or stuck out in the middle of the galaxy with no hope of a quick rescue & under the influence of homebrew (A Hundred Days), the characters weren't shown on screen nor were off-hand references made to their having 'liaisons' with the native populations. (Or we weren't shown them and we as viewers could live in our blissfully innocent little worlds thinking highly of these characters.) The team who set the standard for all the teams that followed them *had* high professional and personal codes of conduct.

In terms of any ordinary scifi show plot device, I wouldn't care. But this is SG1! They are supposed to be the elite team of the SGC and representatives of our entire planet. Seems a bit tawdry for a team member somehow.I wonder if there is still AF oversight to the show anymore.

Now I'm not saying that Cam doesn't deserve to get some from time to time. He's a good-looking, healthy American boy after all (yum!). But in retrospect, his choices in this situation seem very ill-advised to me.

Unless he was taking Jack at his word that once he joined SG1 he could "do anything he wanted." :rolleyes:And I agree... in a more *appropriate* situation... I'd be like every other red-blooded female who's posted that they liked seeing Cam in an interesting situation. But the fact that until he returned home he was still on the job, still representing the SGC and the Tau'ri to a race of people who could only judge us through this team's actions... it kinda turns the SQUEE factor to a squick....

It's interesting too, that fully-clothed and covered and in non-sexual situations each and every member of SG1 had sex appeal to the fans in prior seasons. We don't have to see skin to see sex appeal.

Best I can think of is this is the incident the team will always rub in Cam’s face whenever he gets certain urges in the future… “Hey Cam remember that time…” Like they probably did to Jack about not eating the cake after his Brief Candle incident.... :)

ann_sgcfan
January 14th, 2006, 02:13 PM
That's what I was concerned about in my first post on this thread. To the jaded TV view part of me, it didn't surprise me because the 'new and improved' direction of the show has been heavy on the T&A content and it was only a matter of time before their new male lead was hooked up with *somebody.*

But immediately the SG fan in me said "Wait a minute!" Because unless they were under alien influences (Need, Brief Candle) or stuck out in the middle of the galaxy with no hope of a quick rescue & under the influence of homebrew (A Hundred Days), the characters weren't shown on screen nor were off-hand references made to their having 'liaisons' with the native populations. (Or we weren't shown them and we as viewers could live in our blissfully innocent little worlds thinking highly of these characters.) The team who set the standard for all the teams that followed them *had* high professional and personal codes of conduct.
I wonder if there is still AF oversight to the show anymore.
And I agree... in a more *appropriate* situation... I'd be like every other red-blooded female who's posted that they liked seeing Cam in an interesting situation. But the fact that until he returned home he was still on the job, still representing the SGC and the Tau'ri to a race of people who could only judge us through this team's actions... it kinda turns the SQUEE factor to a squick....

It's interesting too, that fully-clothed and covered and in non-sexual situations each and every member of SG1 had sex appeal to the fans in prior seasons. We don't have to see skin to see sex appeal.

Best I can think of is this is the incident the team will always rub in Cam’s face whenever he gets certain urges in the future… “Hey Cam remember that time…” Like they probably did to Jack about not eating the cake after his Brief Candle incident.... :)


I agree. I think BB is really cute! That said however, there is a time and place for such actions and it's not while off world as a represenative of Earth and the SGC like you said.

Dani347
January 14th, 2006, 02:27 PM
A few more impressions. The scene with him walking with his dad didn't come off to me as us being told how great Mitchell is. Just that Mitchell wasn't the type to be content with a boring commercial flight job. And, that he's strong. But, not anything that came off as pumping him up for the audience.

I also didn't mind that he wasn't at fault for bombing the refugees. I mean, I do want to see him make a real error (okay, I thought the going home with Reya was an error, but the show didn't portray it as one) or do something where someone has to tell him to step back, that he's getting too involved, or making the wrong decision. I'm still highly interested in finding his Achille's Heel. But, for the purpose of this, what I felt was important wasn't that he had been following orders or had bad intel. It was that he felt responsible. The death of innocent people stuck in his mind, he knew he dropped the bomb on the target. Extenuating circumstances aside, the emotional connect was the same. He also knew he hadn't murdered Reya, but the memories made him feel like he had.

And, I did feel a connection with the others. I felt Daniel, Sam, and Teal'c were concerned.

Pharaoh Atem
January 14th, 2006, 03:34 PM
This was the first stinker of the season i didn't like this episode to much it was good to to get back story on mitchell

Pharaoh Atem
January 14th, 2006, 03:37 PM
And, I did feel a connection with the others. I felt Daniel, Sam, and Teal'c were concerned.

Sam seemed very concerned and has anyone noticed that her and mitchell have seemed to connect very quickly :cameron: :sam: ;)

Dani347
January 14th, 2006, 03:39 PM
No connect beyond teammates and friends. And, here's hoping that it never becomes anything else.

Agent_Dark
January 14th, 2006, 04:09 PM
No connect beyond teammates and friends. And, here's hoping that it never becomes anything else.
lol I agree in Canon. However there's lots of potential for fanfic ;)

Shipperahoy
January 14th, 2006, 04:16 PM
True. And, I really don't need to see any of them "get some" I mean, I never see them brush their teeth or go to the bathroom, or a lot of things, and it doesn't bother me, because it's beyond the scope of what their showing about their lives.

What?! They go to the bathroom?! Nuh uh! You'll never prove it! It's like the tree in the forest, if nobody ever sees it does it really happen?:cameron:

AGateFan
January 14th, 2006, 04:19 PM
What?! They go to the bathroom?! Nuh uh! You'll never prove it! It's like the tree in the forest, if nobody ever sees it does it really happen?:cameron:
Well, its not cannon at least.

Dani347
January 14th, 2006, 04:23 PM
Okay, there really is no reply I could give to the bathroom thing that wouldn't be completely in the gutter.

AutumnDream
January 14th, 2006, 04:34 PM
This whole "memory device" setup for the episode just oozed of "cheap setup to shove some more Mitchell down our throats". Not only was it executed poorly, it was unoriginal, and what we did learn about Cameron was not all that interesting or unique after all. Okay, that's too bad... he was involved in an unfortunate accident in his war pilot days. Lots of soldiers from every country have seen and done a lot worse than that, accidental or not. I feel sorry for the character for that, but it's really not all that compelling a thing in the sense of making him a good character. Any normal guy would feel bad about that. In that sense, I say, "Big deal".

His father went through a few things too. That doesn't really make me any more inclined to place interest in Mitchell. Again, sure, it's sad. But not all that revolutionary or compelling for an episode that was written for the express purpose of giving Cameron some real character.

I felt a little bored more than once throughout the episode. It could be because of the dull sets, the repetitive events, the flat dialogue, or the "suspenseful who-killed-the-girl" plot that has been done in fourty thousand TV movies starring Gene Hackman. Or whatever. The memory twist didn't add much other than, like I said, the impression of a cheap plot device to get inside Mitchell's head. I'm certain a more inventive writer could have come up with a subtler way of exploring his character than literally probing his mind. How much more obvious can you get?

The other characters could have added interest to this episode by doing... well, anything remotely cool. Like sneaking in their "top secret guarded labs" or whatnot in an attempt to clear Mitchell's name and/or find damning proof that the minister-guy was up to something. Anything that would have raised the stakes. "Cameron might get imprisoned if the memories prove to be geniune, which we highly doubt they aren't!" isn't really enough to add any suspense to the story, especially because almost none of the fans have any sort of attachment to the character yet. Not to mention the furthur knowledge that Stargate makes generous use of the "reset" button, and whatever happened in this episode will definitely be forgotten by the next. We can rest assured that nothing bad would really happen with Cameron.

While I think he's an alright guy, he still doesn't have enough substance or originality to make me interested in him at all. He's just some guy. Jack was cool because he was just... cool. He was quirky, confident, and surprising a lot of the time. Even by the 12th episode of Season 1. Cameron is just dull, dull, dull, and this didn't do anything to remedy that. It had nothing to do with his acting, just the writing.

I absolutely adored Fourth Horseman Part II and I'm really looking forward to the great Ori stuff coming up. While I don't mind a good stand-alone episode, this just didn't cut it. Here's hoping future stand-alones get better.

I give this episode 2/5, just because Walter made me chuckle.

LMichelle
January 14th, 2006, 04:35 PM
Um, I knew from the teaser where this was going. I was hoping for a twist, but no dice. This was similar to an ep of TNG, but can't remember the title. Hey, at least we got some backstory on Mitchell's character, but other than that it was okay. Nothing great.

Okay, here comes the nitpicking.

Can Mitchell walk me home? I don't like walking at night either. I'm assuming he slept with Raya, but I guess we don't know for sure. Hey, I don't blame Dr. Varrick. ;)

I really could have lived without the multiple flashbacks of Ben beating a woman. *shudder*

I don't know much about casting, but you'd think they could have found a child that looked remotely like Ben. Sheesh.

I heard the word reception and was hoping SG-1 would be dressed up at the party, not in their freakin' uniforms. I wanted my suit porn, dammit.

Speaking of fashion, did anyone else need CPR after seeing Ben in the leather jacket? It was close for me. ;)

It looked like Mitchell was in the same outfit that he had on in the flashback scene with his dad in the park. However, I think he had a brown suede jacket on and in the locker room it was a leather jacket, right? But the picture in his locker didn't match the outfit he had on with his dad. I think the t-shirt was a different color. I know I shouldn't be analyzing this. It was Ben in leather. Enough said. :D

majorsal
January 14th, 2006, 04:39 PM
okay, the day after view now.

i 'still' think this was good mitchell character stuff, but... i won't be watching this ep again most likely. it felt like there was actual time spent on this script, and i really liked the suprise ending, but for me to want to watch it again... i think if i were a big mitchell/ben fan, i would watch it repeatedly. but i'm a sam fan (and team doing things together fan) and it just didn't grab me to make me crave to watch it again. and that's not a slam on the ep. i really can't find any laggings in the writing or directing and such (and ben was great in this), but... even with sam being in it, i won't bother rewatching the ep.

(i'm also afraid the mitchell i liked in this ep is going to go back to onelinermitchell :mckay: )




sally :)

nccjones
January 14th, 2006, 04:56 PM
What most aggreived me was that last scene with Mitchell. Here is a real chance for him to have some kind of meaningful interaction with anyone from his team. What the hell was Landry doing there? That should have been either Daniel, Teal'c, or Sam in that lockeroom with Cameron. Those are exactly the kind of scenes that SG-1 is missing this year, and this one was wasted. Cam is no closer to being "one of the team" after this episode, and that scene could have done it for him. What a waste.

I'm tremedously looking forward to Ripple Effect, though. Bring it on.

I think a good "team" ending would have been Daniel coming into the locker room to ask Mitchell if he wanted to go to (is it O'Malley's?) the steak house with Sam and Teal'c. It definately would have shown the team bringing him into their circle.

AGateFan
January 14th, 2006, 04:58 PM
I think a good "team" ending would have been Daniel coming into the locker room to ask Mitchell if he wanted to go to (is it O'Malley's?) the steak house with Sam and Teal'c. It definately would have shown the team bringing him into their circle.
Yep that would be nice. Something like we saw with the team and Sheppard after Conversion. We have never seen that with Mitchell, he is always on his own or with Landry or Lam or in this ep Sam.

nccjones
January 14th, 2006, 05:00 PM
I watched again, and I've pinpointed the one thing that sounded to Jackish. The "I hope there'll be dancing." The manner and just the line itself just seemed like that to me.

Yes and No. Jack would have said something like that but he would have been flippant about it whereas Mitchell was serious because he wanted to get closer to the alien chic.

majorsal
January 14th, 2006, 05:18 PM
spoilers for s9's 'fourth horseman part 2'

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If anything was "forced", I'd have to go back to last week when there was a whole Gen'l Hammond scene that wasn't necessary for the storyline and totally thrown in as a bone for fans.



and as one of the fans they were aiming this at, i felt literal zero emotional impact. i felt that sam and daniel would have went up and shook hands or hugged him. i felt that hammond would have mentioned jack. i'm not even sure don was in the same room with them when this was filmed! :confused:

so, yeah, it was 'forced' in, so to speak, but had no depth. (just like jack's scenes in 'origin')

of course, this is just my opinion. i'm sure others loved the reunion scene.



sally :)

majorsal
January 14th, 2006, 05:25 PM
I call this a Kirking episode, because Mitchell did have the hots for the alien babe. He definately wanted more. Yeah, she seduced him along, but there were no drugs involved. Alot of alien females seduced Kirk and he was happy as all get out to be with them. Yep...Kirking to me.

i didn't think that woman seduced mitchell. i thought it was a mutual attraction, and when she found out that mitchell was going to support her and help her... she started letting her own attraction 'really' be seen to him. i didn't feel she seduced him or tricked him. he was already going to help her. she prob was very flattered 'and' attracted to him.



sally :)

Droops
January 14th, 2006, 05:36 PM
I'll start by saying, as others already have, that the best part of Collateral Damage was the most welcome return of a true stand-alone episode to SG-1. No pesky Ori, no righteous Jaffa council meetings, no Goa'uld--just SG-1 by themselves on a planet. Many of the show's most important and illuminating episodes have taken place in the absence of overwhelming "big plot" elements, and much of what is characterized as the "stargate feeling" comes from the interaction with different alien cultures. Seeing it again here, I still feel that this episode structure suits the show and I wish that more future episodes would harken back to this simple, less convoluted formula. Take a new culture, add a new technology, throw in some well-defined but not overriding guest characters, and you've got yourself a nice little set-up to showcase the SG-1 team.

Yes, by definition, a TEAM episode.


Of course, that's where this one hits a damned roadblock. Collateral Damage doesn't showcase the SG-1 team. It barely showcases Mitchell, and what it does tell us about him isn't necessarily gripping or endearing. The story just unfolds around the team, they play no real part in it.

No team episode balances the roles of all four characters. But, Sam was there in the lab, watching and interacting with Cam and the aliens. Daniel was the moral conscience of the group, as always. Teal'c was relatively quiet but spoke when necessary. In other words, standard SG-1 team stuff.

Besides, we've had many years of getting to know the other three. It's okay to make this more Cam-centered. We have some catching up to do.


While I didn't really have a problem with it, my brother absolutely hated Mitchell's behavior in this one. OK, fine, he's flirting with a woman--it happens. But what's with ditching SG-1 and their diplomatic mission on the off chance that he'll get to score with the hot chick? I'm pretty sure that's not the standard way of representing your planet.

SHE asked HIM to walk her home. He demurred, to which she said "don't you have crime on your planet?"

In other words, 'PLEASE WALK ME HOME, IT'S DANGEROUS AND I WOULD FEEL BETTER WITH SOMEONE WALKING WITH ME.' It's not like Cam followed her home, or stalked her, or forced his way into it. SHE is the one who asked, she is the one who pushed the issue. What was he supposed to do, tell her No, I don't give a rat's *** about your safety?

Obviously he found her attractive but he did NOT initiate this. Come on people.

Besides, this romance lasted all of, what, 30 seconds? Then the rest of the show was about something else. It was a fine way to get the plot moving along.

nccjones
January 14th, 2006, 05:40 PM
i didn't think that woman seduced mitchell. i thought it was a mutual attraction, and when she found out that mitchell was going to support her and help her... she started letting her own attraction 'really' be seen to him. i didn't feel she seduced him or tricked him. he was already going to help her. she prob was very flattered 'and' attracted to him.
sally :)

Ok...I may have used the wrong terminology, but that wasn't even the point I was trying to get across...it was about Kirking.

STARGATE7777
January 14th, 2006, 05:46 PM
Does anyone get the feeling that the scripts are no longer looked over by the airforce. I mean, do you believe they would allow a Lt. Colonel to be portrayed in this way? They wouldn't allow Jack to kiss Sam in WoO without first retiring.

Hatusu
January 14th, 2006, 05:51 PM
I don't mind that Mitchell had a fling. I mind that we only had a glimpse.

Johnquixote
January 14th, 2006, 05:53 PM
I really liked the actress who played Reya Varrick, think it would be cool if she had been casted as Lam. Plus she's quite hot.

Seshat
January 14th, 2006, 05:59 PM
Obviously he found her attractive but he did NOT initiate this. Come on people.

Ummm...everyone sees this issue a bit differently. I can live with the fact that we don't all agree on what is correct behavior for a United States Lt. Col. who is representing his country on a diplomatic mission. :) Regardless of who initiated it I don't think it thia appropriate behavior on Mitchell's part.

And the cutaway lingering shot of the house from the dark outside after the kiss was a dead giveaway for what the director wanted you to think happened next. Whether or not it did, I guess we'll never know. At least Cam was gentlemanly enough not to share THOSE memories on camera. ;)

Droops
January 14th, 2006, 06:11 PM
Ummm...everyone sees this issue a bit differently. I can live with the fact that we don't all agree on what is correct behavior for a United States Lt. Col. who is representing his country on a diplomatic mission. :) Regardless of who initiated it I don't think it thia appropriate behavior on Mitchell's part.

And the cutaway lingering shot of the house from the dark outside after the kiss was a dead giveaway for what the director wanted you to think happened next. Whether or not it did, I guess we'll never know. At least Cam was gentlemanly enough not to share THOSE memories on camera. ;)

I don't think anything happened. I think they were followed home and she was killed soon after that. You see her husband go by the bar and she is still dressed as she was before.

I have been overseas representing the U.S. government. I would not, while on the clock, have any untoward relationships. I wouldn't have any with anyone in the company that we were reviewing, because I'm in an adversarial position with those companies and it would be unethical. But I HAVE been out on dates with others that I've met while overseas.

They were at a social gathering and were not required to wear full dress uniforms. They were among friends, or hoped-for friends. I agree that it's probably not a smart thing to do, but I can also guarantee you that such things DO happen at diplomatic receptions, which are far more formal than this gathering was, and don't result in people getting fired.

We also don't know how many times the team had visited this planet. Maybe they'd already been there numerous times, building up familiarity and a certain casualness. One always has to be on guard, but if you're stiff and aloof and stand-offish every time it isn't very helpful in establishing good relations.

IMO, and again, this is just IMO, context is everything here and while I personally wouldn't have done what he did, I can't say that what he did was inappropriate.

Seshat
January 14th, 2006, 06:16 PM
IMO, and again, this is just IMO, context is everything here and while I personally wouldn't have done what he did, I can't say that what he did was inappropriate.
Is cool. :) You seem to be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, whereas I don't. ;)

At least in my scenerio he got lucky. :P

Droops
January 14th, 2006, 06:24 PM
Is cool. :) You seem to be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, whereas I don't. ;)

At least in my scenerio he got lucky. :P

We all need to get lucky sometimes. :D ;)

Dani347
January 14th, 2006, 06:28 PM
Regardless of who initiated it I don't think it thia appropriate behavior on Mitchell's part.



Exactly. He could have just said no. Or not gone with her at all, especially if he knew the temptation was there. I really didn't like him saying it was wrong, or words to that effect, and then just went on, like who cares? Like it either didn't matter, or he just "couldn't help himself."

ToasterOnFire
January 14th, 2006, 06:36 PM
Eh, it was an okay episode. We did get some glimpses into Mitch's past, but ye gods the plot moved at a snail's pace. Of course Mitch didn't beat the woman to death, so all the tension of his fate was sapped right out. At least there was something of a twist with the true villian but overall? ZZZzzzzz...

I like Mitch a lot more when he isn't snapping those one-liners. Give me serious and smart Mitch any day - it makes him look more like the leader of SG1 rather than some wide-eyed n00b.

Kirking or not, appropriate or not, I am getting tired of the cliche where the male hero encounters beautiful and interested women on other planets. It wouldn't have been so noticeable in this episode if I hadn't been bombarded with it over on Atlantis... :S

FoolishPleasure
January 14th, 2006, 06:41 PM
Kirking or not, appropriate or not, I am getting tired of the cliche where the male hero encounters beautiful and interested women on other planets. It wouldn't have been so noticeable in this episode if I hadn't been bombarded with it over on Atlantis... :S
I agree. Sheppard has become a certified, professional "Kirker". Hopefully Mitchell won't follow in his footsteps. :rolleyes:

majorsal
January 14th, 2006, 06:50 PM
I didn't really think much about the inappropriateness of Cam's behavior and what it potentially says about his character's judgement until I read your post, but then I realized something. Can you even imagine Daniel, Teal'c or Sam acting this same way at a party on a diplomatic mission to an alien planet? Hmmm? Going home with the first available hottie while on duty?

In terms of any ordinary scifi show plot device, I wouldn't care. But this is SG1! They are supposed to be the elite team of the SGC and representatives of our entire planet. Seems a bit tawdry for a team member somehow.

Now I'm not saying that Cam doesn't deserve to get some from time to time. He's a good-looking, healthy American boy after all (yum!). But in retrospect, his choices in this situation seem very ill-advised to me.

Unless he was taking Jack at his word that once he joined SG1 he could "do anything he wanted." :rolleyes:

i didn't think about that either. i think i was just so happy to see a serious mitchell again that that aspect kind of went over my head. until now.

(still think the ep was great)



sally :)

binkpmmc
January 14th, 2006, 07:00 PM
There are some of us that beleive that one of the reasons Stargate was better then other shows was they rarely delved into the cliche "alien chick who thinks the hero is hot". Many of the earlier eps where it happend "Brief candel" and "Need" had extenuating circumstances. And episodes where it happened where there were no extenuating circumstances "affinity" (earth chick alien hero) were really not that good of a Stargate ep... IMHO.

Exactly - Jack was drugged in Brief Candle and Daniel was high off the sarc in the counter examples provided by Arative above, you can also dig up Hathor but Damniel was drugged, as were the rest of the men, by Hathor.

The pont is that this show never had to stoop to making it part of the characters personality. Mitchell, while on a diplomatic mission no less, goes off for a quickie with a female alien he knows thismuchabout (another example of lack of judgement on his part, IMO) but TPTB have to get their cheesy sci-fi cliche in re: the "making out with the hot alien chick" and they give no excuse to Mitchell, he is sober andhe has not been drugged.

Vala, well there's a complete package of a character, uninfluenced by drugs or sarc narcotic high, she's just written as a cheap, sleazy, female sci-fi caricature. Again something they never had to stoop to before (except for that brief disaster named Anise and thank God they had more sense back then and jettisoned her A$$ as quick as they added her - Vala alas we are stuck with because TPTB have now apparently decided to go full-steam ahead into the world of sci-fi cliche and cheese.

binkpmmc
January 14th, 2006, 07:10 PM
Since I'm sure you all are just waiting with baited breath to hear my thoughts on Collateral Damage, I'll delay your moment of divine rapture no longer. (Hey, I like my delusions, so don't ruin them for me.)

My feelings on this one are rather mixed. For all it had going for it, I can't help but be overcome by the boring tediousness which seems to accompany Cameron Mitchell wherever he may go. For a good long while now many fans have bemoaned the lack of back story for Mitchell and have been chomping at the bit for an episode to showcase Ben Browder's talent as an actor. This episode was constructed purely to mollify such concerns on behalf of the audience, albeit in a rather static and uninteresting way. Someone previously said that this felt more like The Outer Limits than SG-1. The premise is certainly of that bent, but this lacked the moral or ethical focus that an Outer Limits story would have had. Had this one been a little more about weighing the positives and negatives of the technology, more about the inherent rightness or wrongness of everyone's actions during the course of the episode, then it would have had that "punch" that The Outer Limits often pulled off. As it is, this one lacked such an emotional core, and was the poorer for it.

I'll start by saying, as others already have, that the best part of Collateral Damage was the most welcome return of a true stand-alone episode to SG-1. No pesky Ori, no righteous Jaffa council meetings, no Goa'uld--just SG-1 by themselves on a planet. Many of the show's most important and illuminating episodes have taken place in the absence of overwhelming "big plot" elements, and much of what is characterized as the "stargate feeling" comes from the interaction with different alien cultures. Seeing it again here, I still feel that this episode structure suits the show and I wish that more future episodes would harken back to this simple, less convoluted formula. Take a new culture, add a new technology, throw in some well-defined but not overriding guest characters, and you've got yourself a nice little set-up to showcase the SG-1 team.

Of course, that's where this one hits a damned roadblock. Collateral Damage doesn't showcase the SG-1 team. It barely showcases Mitchell, and what it does tell us about him isn't necessarily gripping or endearing. The story just unfolds around the team, they play no real part in it. SG-1 is reduced merely to a group of observers, and even the tension of Mitchell's possible prosecution is swept away before it becomes an issue. The story's bite, while present for the first third of the episode, is gone after any real consequences of the murder are brushed aside. We're simply left with an exercise in pedantry, with the story plodding along from points A to B to C. Even Cam himself is stuck following the plot rather than driving it.

While I didn't really have a problem with it, my brother absolutely hated Mitchell's behavior in this one. OK, fine, he's flirting with a woman--it happens. But what's with ditching SG-1 and their diplomatic mission on the off chance that he'll get to score with the hot chick? I'm pretty sure that's not the standard way of representing your planet. Even more heinous is his offering to use Earth's political leverage to keep Dr. Varrick attached to the project. Of course, it's not because he thinks she's vital to Earth's interests or because she's being mistreated, but because he wants to ingratiate himself, personally, to her. I'm pretty sure that's not the way SG-1 traditionally acts off world either. And even when he's back at Dr. Varrick's apartment and actually articulates that "this is a mistake", he still doesn't do the right thing. Whether Cam actually had time to score with Reya before the murder is neither here nor there, it's that he fully intended to regardless of any consequences that speaks so badly to his character. Obviously there were plot concerns at work with this whole situation, but they don't erase the fact that it still happened and that Cam's actions jeopardized Earth's position with the Galarens.

As for the backstory on Cam, meh. Modest irony with the amputee father, nice relationship between father and son, bad experience with a bombing run once. I'm not sure there's anything there that's particularly unusal for most military familes. I just didn't get the feeling of anything more than an information dump from the flashbacks. And, while I recognize this to be a personal taste, I found Browder's acting while experiencing them over again to be rather vacant. I don't feel that he engaged anyone with the trauma of his past, not the SG-1 team and certainly not the audience. I'd have also preferred there to be more to the story besides Cam's past. Comparing this with how we learned about the rest of SG-1's histories in episodes like Bloodlines, Jolinar's Memories, and Crystal Skull, this one seems all the flatter to me.

Carter, Daniel, and Teal'c. I wish there was more to say about them. In the past they'd have each warranted their own paragraph, but such is not the case recently. More's the pity. They all stood around and looked nice, and they even got a word or two in edgewise occaisonally. But they played no role in the story beyond simply standing around. Sam got to babysit Cameron just like she got to babysit Orlin last week. Way to go on that one. Daniel got to chat rather pleasantly with William Atherton's character. And Teal'c got to follow Daniel around. Super. And what on earth is with Landry actually allowing Mitchell to stay on the planet after being accused of murder, then being told he's free to leave? I'm sorry, but what kind of a half-assed decision is that? Carter was absolutely right to warn Cam about being strangers to the Galarens' justice system. SG-1 has been in similar situations many, many times. Carter was right to suggest that Mitchell return to Earth. I only wish that Landry would have insisted on his return at the subsequent briefing instead of capitulating to Mitchell's overly emotional need to remain behind. Landry, first and foremost, should be protecting his people. And I don't think he did that here.

In the end, I would probably rate Collateral Damage as so-so. It did the job, but lacked any of the unique touches that SG-1 used to add to average stories. And I don't necessarily think that Mitchell was helped by the story. The character is floundering around in the Stargate Universe all by his lonesome. Here, just like in Babylon, the only way to meaningfully showcase him is to serverely and wrongly diminish all of the other characters on the show. Nobody else gets anything in Collateral Damage because Mitchell or Ben Browder needs the screen. It's the kind of thing that illustrates exactly what never happened with Jack O'neill and RDA. Somehow all of the characters got involved when he was around, and that has not been happening in Season Nine. What most aggreived me was that last scene with Mitchell. Here is a real chance for him to have some kind of meaningful interaction with anyone from his team. What the hell was Landry doing there? That should have been either Daniel, Teal'c, or Sam in that lockeroom with Cameron. Those are exactly the kind of scenes that SG-1 is missing this year, and this one was wasted. Cam is no closer to being "one of the team" after this episode, and that scene could have done it for him. What a waste.

I'm tremedously looking forward to Ripple Effect, though. Bring it on.

Absolutely dead-on and you took the words right out of my mouth and said it much more eloquently than I could have. Your points go right to the heart of so much that is worng with this show these days. People clamor for the "team" and we get them standing around wringing their hands with nothing to do and then Landry gets the pivitol moment that maybe, just maybe, could have been a moment to really make this seem like a team - what a wasted opportunty. So sad that the PTB do not see that.

I also, see once again, a horrible lack in judgement on Mitchell's part - he was on a mission representing earth and he pulls this crap with the "hot alien chick"? I really do not understand TPTB - they seem to want to degrade every character lately and while they seem desperate to pimp Mitchell they constantly give him stupid things to do that make him look like he has horrible judgment and make him look unqualified and some of his decisions and actions border on pure incompetence - I really don't get it.

majorsal
January 14th, 2006, 07:11 PM
Cam's behavior did certainly seem out of character for an SG-1 member. However, is it possible that part of his behavior stemmed from having already had a memory of an interaction with this woman implanted in his head? The Emissary's memory was introduced when they showed them the technology. That person may have had a personal connection with the woman that made him feel like he knew her better than he actually did. He certainly had a very unusual reaction when he got to her apartment, feeling like he had been there before. It seems like there are some real gray areas in interpreting WHY Cam would be offering to walk her home and acting so familiar with a woman he had just met. On one side, there's just the "hot alien chick" factor, but on the other side, there's the "I already have memories of you in my head" factor.

edited because I just remembered whose memory was implanted in his head


good points. and i'm not even sure mitchell escorted her home 'just' so he could score with her. when they were at her house, 'she's' the one that made the actual physical contact.

i just think it was mutal attraction augmented with her being touched by him sticking up for her and him having implanted memories of her.



sally :)

binkpmmc
January 14th, 2006, 07:19 PM
Well, its not cannon at least.

It is for Jack in Ascension in S5 when Carter stops him in the corridor about her house still being bugged and he gets fidgety and says he has to "pee" as for the others - nope, never.

binkpmmc
January 14th, 2006, 07:23 PM
spoilers for s9's 'fourth horseman part 2'

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and as one of the fans they were aiming this at, i felt literal zero emotional impact. i felt that sam and daniel would have went up and shook hands or hugged him. i felt that hammond would have mentioned jack. i'm not even sure don was in the same room with them when this was filmed! :confused:

so, yeah, it was 'forced' in, so to speak, but had no depth. (just like jack's scenes in 'origin')

of course, this is just my opinion. i'm sure others loved the reunion scene.



sally :)

Not me I felt the same exact way you did. Did not think they were in the same room when it was filmed.

derrickh
January 14th, 2006, 07:25 PM
It seems that most people share my thoughts about Mitchell's behavior, so I wont dwell on that aspect of the episode.

But where does SG-1 get off on passing judgement on that government? By the sounds of it, Carter, Mitchell,and Jackson all gave scathing reports against opening relations with the planet. Why? Everyone involved bent over backwards to help them at every turn. They were never stonewalled or lied to. And when the truth came out, a decision was made that was best for the society as a whole. But for some reason, this doesnt sit well with SG-1.

What did they want to happen? Would they have been happy if the husband had been executed in front of them? Did they expect the project to be scrapped because the poor guy couldn't handle seeing Mitchell sleeping with his wife?

D

Seshat
January 14th, 2006, 07:28 PM
Not me I felt the same exact way you did. Did not think they were in the same room when it was filmed.
I thought so, too, but I was SO HAPPY to see George I didn't care. :)

Plus I thought that they acted their hearts out trying to look like they were actually talking to each other in real time. It reminded me of just how well the characters used to work together (and how much they truly liked each other) when they were in a room together. *sniff* At least this time the performances were spot on, even if the camera work and lighting was a bit off.

TameFarrar
January 14th, 2006, 07:36 PM
Well after reading all the posts, thanks to those you jogged my memory on the little things I had forgotten :) here is what I thought of this episode.

I completely and I do mean COMPLETELY enjoyed it. :D and here is why

While I know it is virtually impossible these days to have an *original* idea in sci-fi I liked how this one was done. I liked how it was used to not only give us *back-story* on Cam Mitchell but to ALSO tie in OTHER Backstory from previous episodes on Cam and gave a firmer picture of the man.

what do I mean? Back at the beginning we saw flashbacks of Cam struggling to walk again after his crahs and the determination he had to do so but no real reason behind that or why he felt the need to push himself so hard. NOW we see this young boy walk into a hosipital room and to him the *Hero* of his young life has been maimed and this is a pivital moment in his young life. HOW does his Dad handle that moment? His Dad, his *Hero* smiles and makes his feel it will all be alright and he learns then the strength of a Man as it applies to his life. This is who he wants to be when he grows up.
Throughout S9 we have heard Cam utter lines like *What if I screw this up?* or something of a similar nature and I have wondered WHY?? where does that second -guessing of his own judgement come from. NOW I have a glimpse of it. Even though the character hadn't thought about that bombing incident for a long time it has still *colored* him in some way and it still haunts him that innocent people died because in the end HE is the one that pushed the button and dropped the bomb. So he likes to have ALL the information he can, he likes to work with the best and know that he has a team around him that can fill the areas he thinks he is lacking in.

This episode explained to me why this character not only still wanted to push himself to be the best he can be but why he also felt he needed the people around him that he asked for.

As for the overall episode period in no particular order: :)
* LOVED NO ORI!!!! I am not to impressed with the new villians nor have TPTB really as of yet made me feel to scared of them so I can take or leave them.

* I liked that Sam was as supportive of Cam as she was...BUT I felt that her character would have wanted to know more about the technology then was written.

* I had no issue with Cam walking the Dr home as we were lead to believe FROM THE TEAM COMMENTS he had the hots for her. I never really saw it just got it from the dialogue. So if they were ok with it and could rib him about it then I had no issue about it as well.

* I liked Daniel and Teal'c demanding the missing pieces of the investigation and pointing out that they wouldn't know if it was pertinent. I liked that they showed this skeptisim to the head guy.

*LOVED Walter's moment!! :D He is a Staff Sgt NOT a Dr nor a Medical person and it made sense he would stumble over some of that stuff BUT he did know what it all meant in the end and I liked how Gary delivered the performance.

* Was completely surprised by the killer...TPTB have for so long been so predictable that it was nice to be surprised for once :)

** Ben Browder EXCELLENT performance after the memory of the bombing!! This was a BAD, AWFUL memory and he really conveyed that it was an awful experience to have been through. I felt that this character had some depth and THAT is a BOON for me on SG. Sam had her moment for me in *Singularity*, Teal'c in *Avatar* and well I haven't really seen one for Daniel as of yet. Its that moment where you feel that the character is completely exposed and raw and what you see is it... the end of the emotional rope at that moment. Hopefully Cam will show something that is in the present and TPTB will give Daniel something yet to be done.

I never had huge expectations for StarGate to be this dramatic WOW piece of television and I have always been entertained. But with the coming of other Sci-Fi shows lately and enjoying some of the darker drama I am finding that I do want more character *meat* and for me even with a recycled plot idea SG gave me some of that this time around :)

I know I have seen this kind of thing in the past on other shows but due to the overall performances by all I was okay with it :)

jckfan55
January 14th, 2006, 07:43 PM
I thought so, too, but I was SO HAPPY to see George I didn't care. :)

Plus I thought that they acted their hearts out trying to look like they were actually talking to each other in real time. It reminded me of just how well the characters used to work together (and how much they truly liked each other) when they were in a room together. *sniff* At least this time the performances were spot on, even if the camera work and lighting was a bit off.
You really did get a sense of the love and respect from Daniel and Sam toward Hammond & the sense that they miss him. Maybe his comment about taking care of Landry was to help give us the stamp of approval for him.
Interesting comments about Mitchell's behavior. He definitely was on the clock. The writers wanted them together & there wasn't a way to bring him back to the planet without being on the job, so they just went ahead and "kirked" the thing. :( Glad I'm not the only one who thought dress uniforms would have been in order for a "reception." Doesn't hurt that dress uniforms and suits on Daniel & Teal'c look good. ;)

Seshat
January 14th, 2006, 07:50 PM
You really did get a sense of the love and respect from Daniel and Sam toward Hammond & the sense that they miss him. Maybe his comment about taking care of Landry was to help give us the stamp of approval for him. Yes, I felt that wonderful deep understanding of each other's characters and exactly how they would respond in that situation. Made me think that one side was filmed first and actually SHOWN to the other side so they could respond appropriately and with real emotion (instead of a stand-in just feeding them the lines during filming). I love little production tricks like that, and give them points for pulling it off almost perfectly. They can't help it if the fans have expert eyes! I think some of us are getting as good as judging the correct camera angles and lighting flaws as the guys and gals who work on the show. ;)

captainpash
January 14th, 2006, 07:53 PM
This ep was totally predictable. The only thing was that her husband was the one that killed her but the other stuff I figured out pretty quick. The actor that plays Cameron as a kid didn't look anything, anything like Cameron as an adult. Although it was cool that we got some backstory on Cam. Was the part on the jet all CG? Because if it was It looked very, very real.
It was totaly CG. Execpt for the head shots, which were done in a mock up. The cockpit was tinted out, so they didn't have to worry about animating his head, and such.

starfox
January 14th, 2006, 08:02 PM
I just want to get out before the initial squee-ness of this ep dissipates; I'll read the rest of the thread and make any necessary replies tomorrow.


Ohmygosh my love for Cameron Mitchell is now official. *hugs Ben Browder for being awesome* There were maybe one or two lines that didn't come off perfect to me, but overall a very good performance. He does shocked, "oh god, what did I just do" very well. I was impressed with those parts of the ep, as well as with the anger and the determination to get justice. *applauds*

Without even looking at the rest of this thread, I'm willing to bet someone has complained about Cam getting the girl at the beginning of the ep. The word "kirking" has probably been used. But I thought that it worked rather well. Okay, not a good idea for the team's leader to go wandering off around an alien neighborhood more or less on his own, but I'm willing to look past that. As far as the romance aspect goes, I had no problems with it. He's a gorgeous man and the character has an adorable mix of manners and this little boy enthusiasm, and he had been rather solicitous towards Reya. It's easy to see her being interested in him. And although we saw them headed in a sex-erly direction, we also saw Cam say that they shouldn't, we saw her bid him good-night (that's where the memory splice was), and she was wearing the same outfit when she was murdered that she had been wearing when they kissed, meaning that there was no sex. Ladies and gentleman, we have found the unthinkble: A Stargate man who knows how to say "no."

Speaking of saying "no", there is a definite parallel between the memory splicing and rape. The intrusiveness, the violation. And then to have a grisly murder memory implanted? It's a pretty dark place they went to with having this be what Cam experiences. I don't think I've seen Stargate go this dark before, but I'm glad they did in this one. It made it a more moving episode. They took it to a different place here, and I loved it.

One tiny gripe. Making Dr. Marell murder Dr. Varrick out of jealousy? It was a twist, as I had been going with the government conspiracy angle, but it was the wrong one. A government conspiracy would have been a better motive in my opinion, the petty jealousy just kind of brought the ep down for me.
But then again, the fact that the government was still willing to cover the whole thing up made them that much more frightening. Hmmm...I must ruminate on this longer; can't decide whether or not that was a good element.

Cam's relationship with his father was so perfect to me. It worked so well, and showed us what makes Cam so Cam.

Undecided as to where I stand on the Cam-Landry scene at the end. Necessary for closure, but I wasn't thrilled with it on Landry's part.


This episode was old-school sci-fi sci-fi to me. It had a definite Twilight Zone/Outer Limits feel, especially near the end when Marell came back to the room. That whole scene had a very distinct feeling to it that definitely added to the episode to me.

Random note: they totally used the same set for Government Dude's office and Reya's house. When Daniel and Teal'c were coming around the corner I was wondering why they were returning to the scene of the crime, and then I was like, oh, set double. Not complaining, just saying it was noticable.

So, good job M&M, good work Ben, heck, good work all around.

OriKiller
January 14th, 2006, 08:14 PM
As for the overall episode period in no particular order: :)
* LOVED NO ORI!!!! I am not to impressed with the new villians nor have TPTB really as of yet made me feel to scared of them so I can take or leave them.

I'm right there with you, TF. Yes, that's definitely a plus. Any episode without the Ori is going to be a great episode in my book.

Dani347
January 14th, 2006, 08:59 PM
I agree with so much. What do I snip for brevity?


While I know it is virtually impossible these days to have an *original* idea in sci-fi I liked how this one was done. I liked how it was used to not only give us *back-story* on Cam Mitchell but to ALSO tie in OTHER Backstory from previous episodes on Cam and gave a firmer picture of the man.

what do I mean? Back at the beginning we saw flashbacks of Cam struggling to walk again after his crahs and the determination he had to do so but no real reason behind that or why he felt the need to push himself so hard. NOW we see this young boy walk into a hosipital room and to him the *Hero* of his young life has been maimed and this is a pivital moment in his young life. HOW does his Dad handle that moment? His Dad, his *Hero* smiles and makes his feel it will all be alright and he learns then the strength of a Man as it applies to his life. This is who he wants to be when he grows up.
Throughout S9 we have heard Cam utter lines like *What if I screw this up?* or something of a similar nature and I have wondered WHY?? where does that second -guessing of his own judgement come from. NOW I have a glimpse of it. Even though the character hadn't thought about that bombing incident for a long time it has still *colored* him in some way and it still haunts him that innocent people died because in the end HE is the one that pushed the button and dropped the bomb. So he likes to have ALL the information he can, he likes to work with the best and know that he has a team around him that can fill the areas he thinks he is lacking in.

This episode explained to me why this character not only still wanted to push himself to be the best he can be but why he also felt he needed the people around him that he asked for.

Yes, to all of that. I had thought this could help explain his second guessing, but then I couldn't think of any other time that he had expressed that other than that one comment to Sam in Avalon 1, so it didn't really seem more than a natural feeling for a guy who is suddenly in a position he didn't expect. And, I hadn't thought of the connection to him pushing for Daniel, Sam, and Teal'c specifically, but that makes sense, too.



* LOVED NO ORI!!!! I am not to impressed with the new villians nor have TPTB really as of yet made me feel to scared of them so I can take or leave them.
Honestly, after the last episode, the Ori have made me skittish, so I was glad to get a break from them.


* I liked that Sam was as supportive of Cam as she was...BUT I felt that her character would have wanted to know more about the technology then was written.

I think she would have been more curious, too. I did feel at times, her expression was worried when it should have been curious.


* I had no issue with Cam walking the Dr home as we were lead to believe FROM THE TEAM COMMENTS he had the hots for her. I never really saw it just got it from the dialogue. So if they were ok with it and could rib him about it then I had no issue about it as well.

Well, yeah, if it had only been contained to him flirting at the party, I would have been fine with it. I liked seeing them tease him.


* I liked Daniel and Teal'c demanding the missing pieces of the investigation and pointing out that they wouldn't know if it was pertinent. I liked that they showed this skeptisim to the head guy.

Yes, things like this, even if there wasn't a lot gave me the feel of them working, having something to do, instead of just tagging along with no purpose.






** Ben Browder EXCELLENT performance after the memory of the bombing!! This was a BAD, AWFUL memory and he really conveyed that it was an awful experience to have been through. I felt that this character had some depth and THAT is a BOON for me on SG. Sam had her moment for me in *Singularity*, Teal'c in *Avatar* and well I haven't really seen one for Daniel as of yet. Its that moment where you feel that the character is completely exposed and raw and what you see is it... the end of the emotional rope at that moment. Hopefully Cam will show something that is in the present and TPTB will give Daniel something yet to be done.

[/QUOTE]


I always knew that BB could bring in the angst, and was just waiting for a chance for him to do it here. And, he didn't disappoint. A lot of the time for me, I find myself attracted to a part that wasn't meant to have as much of an impact. I did think he did a great job reliving the memory of the bombing, but things that really stood out for me was his reaction to hearing that he should be grateful, and just little things, like the way he kept pressing his lips together when he was remembering things, like he was feeling sick and holding back his urge to gag. Nothing big, just a little thing that I noticed and liked.

As for Daniel, Secrets comes to mind, right after he delivered Shifu. He just seemed spent there.


Speaking of saying "no", there is a definite parallel between the memory splicing and rape. The intrusiveness, the violation.

Very true. In fact, when Daniel said that Mitchell had been assaulted, I immediately thought he meant that. Then, I figured he was most likely talking about the fact that he had been knocked out.

starfox
January 14th, 2006, 09:38 PM
Two nitpicks:

1) I agree with whoever said that SG-1 should have been better dressed for the party. That moment was a bit disconcerting for me. Dress uniforms and suits would have worked better there.


2) It's been heavily implied by several people that Cam and Reya had sex. I gotta disagree. Look at her during the memories of the murder and when they show the body. She's wearing the same dress and her hair is still in an updo. Those two things lead me to believe that Cam did the responsible thing and left. Also, I'm pretty sure that the moment Marell found the memory splice was Reya bidding Cam good-night at the front door. See? He's still a gentleman.

tsaxlady
January 14th, 2006, 10:20 PM
Well this episode was okay for a one off.

I did enjoy seeing Mitchell serious in this episode and fewer one liners. At least the whole team went off world thru the GATE together. While Sam, Daniel, and Teal'c did not have much to do in the episode we did get to see that they care about Mitchell unlike Babylon.

The episode was just a bit slow for me. Not the best episode of the season but also not even close to the worst episode of the season. All in all imo it was an okay episode. Not one I would go out of the way to watch again but one I would watch if it was on.

valaCB
January 15th, 2006, 12:02 AM
:cameron21: Love this episode!! Cam/Sam was great to see, didn't like Ben acting, Love Amanda acting, well done. Daniel was cute as allways and Teal'c...indeed :tealc:

Have to add, Ben looks soooooo good :cameron21:

jetvlt
January 15th, 2006, 12:06 AM
in terms of all things that combine to make an awesome episode, this one had them all. kickass cinematography, writing, acting, sfx, sets, and what really stood out for me, the music, which was different to anything ive heard in sg1, ever.

all in all, and some of you might find this to be a stretch, and most will disagree, but personally, its the best episode ive ever seen. (and ive seen them all up to 912.)

PG15
January 15th, 2006, 12:16 AM
That was one of the most powerful episodes of SG1 I've seen, and quite disturbing.

Who ever directed did an EXCELLENT EXCELLENT job, he should do it again, and again, and again, and so on.

Ok, yeah, the girl thing was a little iffy, but it didn't bother me that much.

The dad scene was awesome as well. Bring the actor back please.

Nice new angles of Cheyenne mountain!

I DID NOT see the twist at the end, with the husband erasing his own memory. Very well done.

The beginning sort of dragged though.

Nice memories, although the refugee part didn't have as much impact as it could've. It should've been something much more painful IMHO.

Browder did a very nice job.

And finally, the twisted face in the mirror, when they finally revealed the husband's face was freaking creepy! I was very disturbed by that. I think one of these days that picture will get put into one of those .swf files that scream at you.

Final "grade": 4/5

Dani347
January 15th, 2006, 12:19 AM
I forgot to say this, but I thought the guy playing the husband did a very nice job.

azurek8
January 15th, 2006, 01:03 AM
I thought this was good..a bit dark, but enjoyable. I guess the who did it a few seconds before it was revealed. Prion, now I remember the episode of Star Trek TNG, that was one of my faves. I did miss about the first 15 minutes because my daughter was crying in my ear, so I missed what they were talking about. My daughter is asleep now, she doesn't feel good. I'll just watch it again at 11 o'clock.

Quick Question: who is Jeff Upton? They had a in memoriam for him at the end of the show. I'm just wondering who that is.

edit to correct the name.
Azurek8 here... Hi! I looked him up on the internet and he was a chief lighting technician for a few shows. That is all i could find out about him.
Nice to see a mention for him from the show. Another soul gone over. God bless him.

BigBadBob
January 15th, 2006, 01:23 AM
Unless I missed something, the gate activating was never shown in this episode. Even though they went back and forth a few times. Kind of bothers me, but oh well.

Also, some of the dialogue was odd. The guy on the other planet said something was censored in the interest of national security.

That's exactly how the US government officials would put it, why not word it differently for another planet?

Ksenia
January 15th, 2006, 01:50 AM
Just finished viewing it!

Pros:
--Teaser: Very cool, loving the flashback style of photography that was used, as well as when Mitchell is first taken in, as it's a bit skittish feeling.
--And absolutely love the shot of Mitchell at the window right after the credits, with the ringed planet through the window - that was just beautiful! One of my favorite shots of the entire episode (and there were many).
--We've all seen the memory transplant or creating sort of device in other sci fi shows, what I particularly liked was the explanation of how it could be beneficial - the educational purposes.
--Daniel's resistance to the idea. He brought up his concern at the board room meeting, and he followed it up by discussing the negatives with the Emissary at the reception.
--Ben Browder's acting as he described the memory.
--Briefing room scene minus Cameron - awesome shot of the room from the gateroom! I loved that perspective, a bit different from what we're used to.
--City exterior scenes. Nice city somebody made, lots of movement in it!
--Sam's concern. She played it well, not too much, not too little.
--Flashbacks - they looked good, they sounded good.
--Mitchell's father - I loved this guy! Very quick and easy to care about him, the relationship was fantastically portrayed. The actor was fantastic.
--Love Walter. =^)
--Both the guys playing 'memory technicians' were fantastic.
--Cameron's angsty flashback - quite interesting! Love the backstory.
--Ben Browder's acting, re: angsty flashback. Awesome.
--Daniel & Teal'c argument with the Emissary about continuing the investigation, despite the graft discovery.
--Reflection, though slightly annoyed as my boyfriend guessed it as soon as they decided to look for an anomaly and before they showed anything, so it lacked a surprise element for me. But still very well done, and including the quick zoom in shot on Cameron in the chair after.
--The creepy scene of the killer coming back in and not knowing what happened, the entire feel of that was eerie, I liked it. The look of disbelief in Cam and Sam's faces.
--Last scene with dad. That was so well done.

Cons:
--SG1 just looked a bit silly at that reception. Didn't feel quite right.

Neutral:
--Cam's relationship with the woman seemed fairly innocent to me. It didn't bother me one bit, and she was interested as he was, perhaps more so as she asked him to walk her home. Previous to that he just seemed to quite enjoy her company.

Overall: Yeah, excellent episode! Great to see that backstory on Cam, and he played this episode particularly well. Loved the guy playing his dad too.

Yes, the plot was a bit predictable with the memory chair, and they gave that up straight away, that was no secret - we knew how it would end, roughly. But I find that the telling of the story is more important than the ending sometimes - in movies like Titanic, you know what's going to happen, it's the journey of getting there that's interesting. Good storytelling in this one.

cajnjirl
January 15th, 2006, 05:27 AM
2) It's been heavily implied by several people that Cam and Reya had sex. I gotta disagree. Look at her during the memories of the murder and when they show the body. She's wearing the same dress and her hair is still in an updo. Those two things lead me to believe that Cam did the responsible thing and left. Also, I'm pretty sure that the moment Marell found the memory splice was Reya bidding Cam good-night at the front door. See? He's still a gentleman.


No, they didn't. So why is everyone freaking out?


And I also think it was a government cover-up, because no one seemed to care that she was dead and just wanted SG-1 to leave.

SophieTucker
January 15th, 2006, 05:54 AM
I too was glad we got a break from the Ori

And I did enjoy the episode but I had to remind myself this was Mitchell not Lt. Paris because this episode was so reminiscent of Voyager (both SG's gave us a ST:VOY plot this week). Still, I think there were enough differences that it was less predictable than predicted.

It bothered me that SG1 would go to a reception in their fatigues - I guess they didn't have time to go home and change.

I am ready to see something "happy" in Mitchell's past -lot of "sad" memories.

AGateFan
January 15th, 2006, 05:56 AM
I too was glad we got a break from the Ori

And I did enjoy the episode but I had to remind myself this was Mitchell not Lt. Paris because this episode was so reminiscent of Voyager (both SG's gave us a ST:VOY plot this week). Still, I think there were enough differences that it was less predictable than predicted.

It bothered me that SG1 would go to a reception in their fatigues - I guess they didn't have time to go home and change.

I am ready to see something "happy" in Mitchell's past -lot of "sad" memories.

Sadly they ruined that explanation as they were already at home, sitting at in the conference room talking about the reception they were going to go to. So it seems they would have had enough time to get something together.

nccjones
January 15th, 2006, 09:00 AM
Sadly they ruined that explanation as they were already at home, sitting at in the conference room talking about the reception they were going to go to. So it seems they would have had enough time to get something together.

Yeah, that scene did bug me. Also the fact that the Gate was never used in the show. I think what they should have done as they would have in the past is show Sam, Daniel and Teal'c coming through the gate and the General would be at the ramp and then Sam explaining what happened to Mitchell. If not that, using the Malp by the Gate to explain the situation. I found it odd that they were casually discussing it in the conferance room.

Another pet peave. When they said that the government was willing to let Mitchell go with no consequences, then Daniel (or Sam...can't remember which) said that Mitchell wanted to stay behind to find the killer...the General should have said NO! It was not their problem. Yes, Mitchell had the memories of the murder, but by all accounts he should have been dragged back to Earth. I just found it odd that the General was so willing to let them run around a planet that willing to frame him. They had no idea what else could have been done. To me that made no military sense at all.

Hatusu
January 15th, 2006, 09:28 AM
I agree with you, NCC. That surprised me and it looked like the General lacked control. I wonderd why the writers chose to take away much of the threat in this show. It really reduced the tension.

Earlier, I forgot to mention that I enjoyed the unusual opening sequence. I actually checked to see if I had accidently changed channels. I also admired the shot of the Stargate Command conference room from outside the window. Since I know that the conference room is three stories up, and I'm not sure they can get a camera crane in the Gate Room, they must have had the camera operator on a pretty tall ladder. :P

TheCaptain
January 15th, 2006, 10:18 AM
I thought this was one of the better episodes this season, it really had a murder mystery-esque quality right from the start that I found interesting in an SG-1 episode.

I'm a fan of Star Trek Voyager and have seen many of the show's episdoes but not all, so can anyone give me a name or reference of the ep Collateral was similiar to, so I can read about it or catch it on satelliteTV replays? Thanks

To me yes there were a couple of nagging issues that just seemed a little bit out of place in the ep (namely, the BDUs at a formal party, and the amount of times that bludgeoning murder scene was shown to us - I get the fact that it was hard for them to prove that he DIDN'T kill her in the first place, but still...) but overall, in my opinion it was highly enjoyable. If this was the standard of the one-off episodes to come, then I say 'bring 'em on!'

The Ori are great, yes, but this was really a refreshing change from these preliminary introduction eps for the new enemy - and we got to see the Mitchell character revealed a little bit more, got to understand him a little better. I'm warming more and more to Cam now that the absence of Jack has sunk in a little, and this episode did wonders for my outlook towards him. Wasn't a big fan of Farscape, but I see that Ben Bowder is a good actor - more than adequate for his character and the series, at least.

Look about Landry and his decision to let Mitchell run with the investigation, I don't really think it's fair to blame the commander, he was relying on the call of his senior officer and the rest of the team and they were backing Cam with this.

Although the somewhat cold, dismissive nature that he employs with the rest of the SGC personnel really peeves me, I thought his call to let SG1 run with things and solve the murder issue was a fair call. It was never really going to come down to Mitchell on death row, anyway, because neither side wanted that at all.

I as a fanfic writer love the idea of exploring these guys again sometime after the events of this episode (we never really did learn their planet's name or what they called themselves, did we?). Just think they could be a little dark and twisted, and with a mixture of technologies and the protection of the Asgard treaty (not very relevent now I guess, but would have allowed their race to develop to a very high point) they could be quite a powerful force. And with this memory programme now militarized...

Okay, so overall, I give it a 9 out of 10 - it has a couple of flaws but so do most shows, but overall it gave us insight into Mitchell's character, we got to see a planet technologically advanced thanks to the protection of the Asgard non-interference treaty with the Goa'uld, and we saw the team working together on one task, which seemed somewhat against the current norm of the show.

A sign that TPTB still have some great shows to bring out in the future, I hope...

Capt

Zoser
January 15th, 2006, 10:25 AM
I really liked the actress who played Reya Varrick, think it would be cool if she had been casted as Lam. Plus she's quite hot.
With her hair down she reminded me of a young Mary Steenbergen. She should have been O'Neill's squeeze in Threads.

Zoser
January 15th, 2006, 10:38 AM
Yeah, that scene did bug me. Also the fact that the Gate was never used in the show. I think what they should have done as they would have in the past is show Sam, Daniel and Teal'c coming through the gate and the General would be at the ramp and then Sam explaining what happened to Mitchell. If not that, using the Malp by the Gate to explain the situation. I found it odd that they were casually discussing it in the conferance room.

Another pet peave. When they said that the government was willing to let Mitchell go with no consequences, then Daniel (or Sam...can't remember which) said that Mitchell wanted to stay behind to find the killer...the General should have said NO! It was not their problem. Yes, Mitchell had the memories of the murder, but by all accounts he should have been dragged back to Earth. I just found it odd that the General was so willing to let them run around a planet that willing to frame him. They had no idea what else could have been done. To me that made no military sense at all.

Hammond would not have put up with that. I liked his strength; he gave a cretain order to the chaos of the SGC.

vizel
January 15th, 2006, 11:24 AM
Well, you are not alone. I don't like the Mitchell character either. I can't seem to put my finger on it except that I keep saying "That sounds like what Jack would say or do." I understand from a business sense that TPTB needed to replace RDA's presence on the show, but Browder's character seems too Jack-like. Sheppard has Jack qualities while maintaining a uniqueness. Not knowing the backstory of Sheppard or any of the others hasn't diminished my enjoyment of Atlantis. I feel Mitchell is being forced on me. I'm waiting for Mitchell to be something more than a Jack replacement. JMHO.:)

Oh, and I miss Carter's technobabble. :(
I fell the same.

Cinephilic TV Addict
January 15th, 2006, 11:45 AM
This episode had a lot of potential, but came out only so-so.

Cameron's back story was well done, for the most part. Interesting and tied in well with the rest of the narrative.

That said, the other parts of the episode were only okay - there were too many flashbacks of the murder (time killer), there was far too much unnecessary dialogue in the show, and the other 'planet' looked far too much like earth (I don't expect anything to look too alien, but besides the CG shots of the city, it didn't even look like there was any attempt to make it look different from earth).

The first act or two really felt trite – we’ve been there, done that. It just didn’t fit well with the rest of the show.

Yes, I was glad the murderer was not one of the two most obvious suspects, but the problem then becomes all the screen time wasted making the other two out to be suspects in the first place. Their dialogue, reasoning, etc., really didn’t make sense unless they were the killer, which they were not. There was potential for the leader to be a seriously disturbed individual, but it just came out bland and boring in the end.

I liked how this episode had a message, but it got convoluted in the middle and practically lost at the end - it switched from the dangers of playing with memory to the morality of murder with only a loose connector, and neither theme was developed well. Daniel’s whole spiel on memory/morality (which was stale to begin with) therefore became useless.

There’s a lot of potential buried in this episode. Too bad it didn’t come to fruition.

2 1/2 stars out of 4 (probably only deserves 2, but it was such an improvement over 4th horseman that it seems fair to be generous).

GhostPoet
January 15th, 2006, 06:06 PM
WOW.. Excellant episode!! Very SG-1 classic. :) I loved it.

doombringer333
January 15th, 2006, 07:04 PM
I haven't read through every post, so sorry if I repeat anything.

I liked the episode and felt it opened a window onto Cam. I enjoy having someone new on the team, someone we can learn about. The other three characters feel so well-explored to me that there's nothing new to them, but maybe I'm just jaded right now.

Carter didn't have a big role this ep and like last ep, she felt more like a supporting character, not doing a whole lot. I thought for sure that she would jump in a solve the memory thing, but she was rather passive.

I'm pretty sure the US won't follow-up any diplomatic relations with the people of that world (the Galerans?), so they won't get access to Earth tech. However, they seem like the kind of people who would quickly fall in league with the Aschen, should the Aschen ever cross paths with them. We may see them again sometime ...

Droops
January 15th, 2006, 09:42 PM
[B][COLOR=darkorchid]I agree with you, NCC. That surprised me and it looked like the General lacked control.

Landry knew his service record and knew how much killing an innocent, or having a memory of something like that, bothered him. It's not completely implausible.

PG15
January 15th, 2006, 11:26 PM
I'm a fan of Star Trek Voyager and have seen many of the show's episdoes but not all, so can anyone give me a name or reference of the ep Collateral was similiar to, so I can read about it or catch it on satelliteTV replays? Thanks



"Ex Post Facto"

knowsfords
January 16th, 2006, 03:25 AM
Very good episode.

First thing I thought when I saw this episode was "wait, thats the console from revisions" at least they saved some money on another single use 50k console... by the way was it just me or did was the cleaning of the memory at the end with the guys face twisting into view kinda freaky?

VOOK
January 16th, 2006, 03:58 AM
The only thing that bothered me about the Ep was the set in Lab was recycled from the episode with "The Link" it just stuck out like a sore thumb "(

Posherella
January 16th, 2006, 06:13 AM
I thought this was a rotten stand-alone episode and while I haven't read all the replies to this thread yet, I'm very surprised that it's received so much favor.

This episode did not help define Mitchell's character any further for me, at least not yet. I'm sure it was very hard for him to go through and it's with him daily, but it doesn't seem to be affecting the choices he makes so much.

It's not like learning that Daniel's parents were also archeologists who were killed on the job; or like learning that Jack's son shot himself with his own gun; or discovering Sam's rocky early relationship with her father. Those were instances of past events that truly shaped these characters into the people we know and love on the show. It helps us understand their decisions.

I'm sure there will come a time where Mitchell makes a decision based on his past, but, eh, just color me unimpressed.

Now his nicely delivered line, "I didn't say I didn't want to," had me swooning and did much more for me to develop the type of character he is.

This whole episode seemed like a contrived way to tell a Mitchell back-story that I feel didn't really need to be told. To be honest, while I adore Mitchell's character, I'm getting tired of his whiny flashbacks.

Quinn Mallory
January 16th, 2006, 07:07 AM
No actual shots of the stargate in this episode. I guess this is happening a bit more frequently now. The first episode to go stargate-less wasn't until episode 100+ (correct me if I'm wrong).

Oh well, shots of the gate wasn't really needed in this episode.

Quinn Mallory
January 16th, 2006, 07:13 AM
IThis episode did not help define Mitchell's character any further for me, at least not yet. I'm sure it was very hard for him to go through and it's with him daily, but it doesn't seem to be affecting the choices he makes so much.

It's not like learning that Daniel's parents were also archeologists who were killed on the job; or like learning that Jack's son shot himself with his own gun; or discovering Sam's rocky early relationship with her father. Those were instances of past events that truly shaped these characters into the people we know and love on the show. It helps us understand their decisions.


Well, I think I disagree somewhat.

I think we're supposed to make a connection that Mitchell's tough rehabilitation from the crash in the Antarctic fight was encouraged by his dad's valiant attempt to live without shame after losing the legs.

The stuff with the killing the refugees may have future impact in setting up a potential refusal to follow the chain of command in the future.

Quinn Mallory
January 16th, 2006, 07:19 AM
Carter didn't have a big role this ep and like last ep, she felt more like a supporting character, not doing a whole lot. I thought for sure that she would jump in a solve the memory thing, but she was rather passive.


Well, Carter is a physicist not a neurobiologist. Although she there were moments in the past, in sure, where she flashes her brilliance in other sciences, it would take a leap of faith to believe that she can just jump in and study those brain wave patterns or whatever more effectively than those other scientists.

Carter just showed her sister-like support for Cam in this ep.

Quinn Mallory
January 16th, 2006, 07:20 AM
One more thing, I guess Cam "Shaft" Mitchell (as established in "Beachhead") is just living up to his old call sign in this episode.

GateLadyM
January 16th, 2006, 08:06 AM
I liked this episode and I doubt Mitchell slept with the gal for reasons others stated (she was in the same outfit when she was dead). It didn't seem odd that he kissed her either. If it happens all the time it will become irritating though. We have enough boob chasing going on over in Atlantis, we don't need it on SG1.

As for Mitchell and Carter using first names, it seems that they have known each other for quite awhile. Perhaps TPTB will give us a hint of that down the road, but I don't see any romance, just good friends and teamwork.

I really enjoyed the scenes with the dad. Good to see backstory on the new characters.

Lord Zedd
January 16th, 2006, 11:01 AM
First of all I would like to say I didn't love this episode at all. What a shame. This ain't stargate anymore. In the entire episode we haven't seen the stargate once !!! :mad: Not even the gateroom. What is happening with the show For Crying Out Loud. This is one of the most boring episodes of the entire 9 seasons. This story went only about Cameron Mitchell and not about SG.1. :mad: It was oh so boring and it looked like a very cheap episode. Definitly a episode filler. TPTB what the hell is wrong with you guys? Have you lost your thouch?

Ok so it was terrible to see the refugees getting killed and his dad getting that accident. Ok some good backgroundstory for Cameron Mitchell but what a bad episode ! This is just my opinion ;) If you liked it good for you. I didn't so bad for me. :( I expected a bit more high quality. I expected SG.1 and Stargate and well we didn't get it !

StarzSkyMoon
January 16th, 2006, 02:24 PM
im gonna take the polar opposite of this last post and say... i absolutely loved this episode!

One of the huge things that has bugged me about the new episodes of stargate is the lackadasical attitude about...well, pretty much everything. It was nice to see Cameron take such a passion in fighting for the truth and justice. I like that he also got a bit of backstory shown, and we saw a glimpse into deeper but... yes, darker side to Mitchell. I feel like this ep really helped to round him out some. And i loved the Carter/Mitchell friendship scenes too. And YEAH, for Daniel and Teal'c they were like CSI: Stargate ;)

I love Ben Browder, and this episode really showed his strength in "angst" acting.

So overall, i think this ranks as one of my top eps for season 9

:cool: Lizbeth

Tok'Ra Hostess
January 16th, 2006, 02:28 PM
I have mixed feelings about this ep.

The Good:

1)Cam's backstory. I feel I now have a better understanding of his remarks to Sam in Avalon 1: "What if the world needs saving because I screwed up because you weren't here in the first place?"

Cam has to live with a terrible burden because his back-up screwed up. He must have seen Sam - and Daniel and Teal'c for that matter, who have tons of experience saving the world from wierd aliens, as the best possible back-up.

2)His dad: Wow! The younger, hospitalized version looked so much like adult Cam that I could almost believe Ben Browder had been made-up for the role. Both the dad scenes were well played. Very nice work.

An Asgard-protected planet that actually progressed. Excellent continuity with Thor's Chariot and the Asgard tests to determine whether a civilisation was sufficiently advanced to communicate with them. Wonderful! Thank-you! Keep it up, guys! :)

A new use for an old plot device. Always nice.

The Not So Good:

Sam: While I accept that the three others had little to say & do in this one, I feel that Sam's part was especially... limp, mostly because she, of the three, had the most screentime, but did nothing interesting with it. :(

SG-1 wearing their BDUs to a diplomatic party. Why, why, why would they do that? Oh, well, I suppose I should be grateful they weren't toting their P-90s this time.

And while we're on the subject, Cam making out with an alien member of a diplomatic party. The Sam-and-Jack-should-be-courts-martialed-for-having-romantic-feelings people must just hate the new SGC standards of impropriety. I know that I do. :(

And finally, the whole false memory idea. I've never liked the direction SG has taken with that. First Linea, a psychopathic mass-murderer turns all sweetness and light when she forgets who she is, and now this time we get a guy who makes himself forget that he killed his ex. Fine, okay, as far as it goes(which is not very far, AFAIC), but he should still have had the personality of a jealous person. By all rights he should have still been murderously jealous of Cam.

B5 did this better: The protagonist had been a serial murderer who'd undergone the punishment of death of personality. Years later, vengeful grieving relatives of his victims assembled on B5 and reintroduced the memory of his crimes, confusing the hell out of this guy, who had built up a new, if false personality, and giving him some serious angst. But what can I say, JMS did everything better....

Still and all, CD was a pretty enjoyable ep, for the new SG. The memory time camera work was good, IMO, adding a nightmarish feel to scenes. I'd watch this one again. :)

GateAngel
January 16th, 2006, 03:25 PM
First of all this is the FIRST episode where I really felt connected to the character of Cameron Mitchell. I thought that Ben did an amazing job with his role in this episode and I was on the edge of my seat worrying for Cameron as he went through the torture of sorting through the memories for the false ones. The parts that we saw of his background and his relationship with his dad made Cameron Mitchell very real. When Cameron was sitting in that briefing after the botched bombing raid and knowing he had killed innocent people by accident, it was heart rendering and powerful.

I liked when Mitchell said he hoped there would dancing (and I was disappointed when we didn't get to see dancing and why the heck was SG-1 in BDU's instead of formal dress clothing. Did they think the others a the party wouldn't know they were 'The People from Earth' or what?). It was endearing and
was a nice touch for the character. In this episode I actually enjoyed the banter between Daniel and Mitchell. I loved when Mitchell said, after Dr. Reya went to talk to someone else that 'maybe diplomicy wasn't his thing' and Daniel, who had been observing Mitchell and Reya flirting with each other says 'so that's what you call that' in his lowkey sense of dry wit humor. That was Daniel Jackson to me.

All in all this was great character development for Cameron Mitchell.

However it really bothers me that they had to separate Ben Browder from the rest of the cast to bring his character forward, like it was meant to keep Mitchell from fading into the background.

It was also very obvious that Mitchell/ Browder is being pushed as the 'strong romantic hero lead' type for this show. If you will notice there were only two women in this episode that weren't background material and Mitchell was the focus of BOTH their undivided attention. Dr. Reya focused on him as a love interest/romantic partner and Sam Carter focused on him by being the worried and supportive in a nurturing way team member, her behavior was very 'feminine'. However it was very canonicly 'Sam Carter' since she was this way with Jack in Solitudes and with Cassie in Singularity.

I realize this 'strong romantic hero lead' type is the main reason Ben Browder was chosen as the new lead of the show (and probably why he was their first choice to play Pete Shannahan). RDA was always the strong, romantic hero lead type as well. This was evident in the early seasons when Jack was romancing Kynthia and Laira. Like RDA, Ben Browder was the lead actor in another series where he was the 'strong romantic hero' type. Farscape to me was a as much about John Crighton's romance with Aeryn Sun as it was about his efforts to get back home. If nothing else, that was a very successful aspect of Farscape and Ben pulled it off well.

While many of us do see the talent that is Michael Shanks, he has never really gotten the full chance to played the strong romantic lead type in anything. He had the opportunity for Sumuru to be something close to that, but it never reached it's potential. It might seem odd, but IMHO by keeping Daniel Jackson out of stories that made him the strong romantic lead (questing to find Sha're was not the same to me), it might have worked to his disadvantage.

Back to the story line of Collatral Damage. The one thing that really didn't make sense to me was the reaction from Daniel, Teal'c and Sam about this so called 'new technology' that the people of this world
had. So they have memory altering/implanting technology. Big deal.

And why would the chiefs of staff or whomever be salivating over it when the SGC theoreticly has had access to this type of thing since their encounter with the Orban people back in season 3. They were able to transfer knowlege through the nanites. I mean by now someone has perfected and refined the process. Why haven't they been working with that lady doctor SG1 met up with in the episode Beneath the Surface in season 4 or why didn't they work with the scientist from the 7th season episode Revisions to perfect their technology of instantly transferring memories (which btw was also written by M&M whom I'm beginning to suspect has a fascination with this subject, which isn't a bad thing)?

Why did they have to leave Mitchell on the planet and put him through that torture when they just could have dialed up the Tok'ra and asked them to bring along their zaytarc detection machine from the episode Divide and Conquer that can pinpoint false memories just like that!

Also this seemed to be an ironic episode to be running AFTER the episode where Orlin couldn't hold onto his memories. To me there should have been SOME mention from Sam about how this technology would have been useful or had been able to perserve Orlin's memories of his ascended knowledge. It didn't have to be a big line, but it would have made for interesting continuity.

Dispite these inconsistancies and deliberate disassociation with the past, I still liked this episode and I enjoyed learning about Mitchell and I thought Ben Browder did a terrific job.

Oh and Tatiania Shanks was adorable too.

Jades
January 16th, 2006, 04:51 PM
I liked when Mitchell said he hoped there would dancing (and I was disappointed when we didn't get to see dancing and why the heck was SG-1 in BDU's instead of formal dress clothing. Did they think the others a the party wouldn't know they were 'The People from Earth' or what?).

The only reason I can think of (in reference to Sg-1 wearing BDU's) is that the show seems to try and portray the US Air Force in a positive light. I think repeated images of an officer in Air Force dress uniform beating a woman to death may not have gone down too well, it seems a lot less contentious to have them wearing the more non-descript BDU`s.

I enjoyed this ep as well. I thought Ben Browder did a great job in portraying Mitchell's grief, confusion and guilt over the situation and I really liked the rest of the team's contribution - especially D and T haranguing the emissary and Sam supporting Mitchell.

I also liked the lighting in some scenes (eg. the jail cell) and how the flashbacks were shot, as well as the sterile and minimalist looking sets and costumes. It gave the ep an edgy and oppressive feel.

Zelda
January 16th, 2006, 05:23 PM
I like this episode even better the second time I watched it! A+

Thank you, NotAscended. I came across your post while reading this thread and the part of the discussion that wondered if Mitchell was appropriate in his flirtation during a diplomatic mission off world. I watched the episode again, and I think you are right. Mitchell's immediate attraction to Raya was the result of the initial memory transplant.

I've come to the conclusion after watching the episode again and discussing plot points on another bboard that there is a lot going on beneath the surface in this episode and the plot is more complex than is first apparent.

I payed closer attention to the initial memory transplant scene in which Mitchell is the Ambassador. It is subtle, but the Ambassador is a bit more interested in the scientist than he should be. Note the Ambassador/Mitchell lightly running his fingers over the sleeve of Raya's robe and watch how he's looking at her as he's saying many good things are expected of her. The set up is strange, too. It is night, Raya is coming from another part of the house, in a robe, saying she was not expecting anyone, while the Ambassador has somehow let himself in and made himself comfortable with a drink. The entire setup is creepy. It's not overt but it is pretty certain the Ambassador is interested in the scientist in a non-professional way (thank you Ben for that subtle performance as creepy Ambassador).

And, when you think about that, that particular memory may have been selected as the implant partly to interest the Tauri diplomat in Raya with the goal of obtaining favorable reports for the negotiation with the Tauri regarding the technology swap. Daniel and Teal'c wondered why so much of Raya's information had been censored by the government; perhaps her affair with the Ambassador and the true extent of technological advancement of the device were conveniently removed.

Then add how familiar Mitchell felt in her house.

Then add that it is not logistically or logically possible for the killer to have done the deed on his own, erased his own memory and transplanted a duplicate memory since it was noted several times during the episode that the false memory had to be implanted in a precise way in order for the splice to be undetectable. It just makes sense that there had to be an accomplice. Unless there is a portable device, and the technological understanding of the splicing technique was much more advanced than the scientists were admitting.

Perhaps Raya felt double-crossed at the reception when she received the note that she was to be removed as project manager and the military arm of the government was going to usurp the technology for its' own purposes. Maybe the Ambassador and others thought she would be angry and indiscreet enough to spill the plan to Mitchell. So they planned to kill her, implant the murder memory in Mitchell whom they thought would use the diplomatic immunity and leave and that they could also use his supposed guilt as the murderer as leverage in contract negotiations.

Of course, all of the above is speculation.

Anyway, thank you creative team! Whether by accident or by design, this is an intriguing, plot twisting mystery. I hope SG1 will revisit this planet in the future; I really enjoy the deviousness of the government.

Colonel Dixon
January 16th, 2006, 08:27 PM
I know it's been brought up before, but I just felt the need to vent about Daniel's line, "Wow, on Earth we have to prove guilt." I really hope they aren't trying to turn Daniel into Jack. After Season 1's "Cor-Ai", I don't think anyone on SG-1 would have said something like that. If they had given the line to Mitchell, I would have been perfectly fine with that. It would have worked well as an homage to "Cor-Ai", especially if Daniel corrected him. But please, it was a horrible and very non-Daniel moment.

the fifth man
January 16th, 2006, 08:59 PM
I also liked the lighting in some scenes (eg. the jail cell) and how the flashbacks were shot, as well as the sterile and minimalist looking sets and costumes. It gave the ep an edgy and oppressive feel.

I know what you mean, and couldn't agree more.:) Very clever way of shooting the ep.

As for the episode itself, I swear it gets better and better each time I watch it. I can't get over how well tptb and BB progressed his character in this one. I really feel that this ep will help a lot of people out there gain some sort of connection with Mitchell, if they haven't already.

Cynicat
January 16th, 2006, 09:40 PM
I quite enjoyed this episode, it was an excellent example of a standalone, and a good episode in its' own right. A tight plot, The exploration into Mitchell's backstory was well done - I especially liked the link between his father's accident, and Mitchell's stubborness and determination following his own.

With regards to other film/TV parallels, I'm surpirsed nobody has mentioned Alex Proyas' "Dark City", it was my first thought at the begining of the episode. The opening sequence especially was very similar - Mitchell's confusion, finding the body etc, all parallel to the begining of "Dark City". The offworld production design reminded me of Vincenzo Natali's "Cypher" - the stark cleanliness of everything, the re-occuring lines and grid patterns, the lack of detail in their clothing (though, with regards to costumes, enough with the jackboots for offworld military!). Even the memory-diddling device had similarities to one seen early in "Cypher".

Effects-wise, the entire fighter sequence was excellent. The VFX just keep getting better in this show :D

Cine-wise - I'm a little divided about the style of the flashbacks. The jumping about reminded me of David Fincher's signature film-jumping-out-of-the-gate technique (used to great effect in "Fight Club", and even A Perfect Circle's "Judith" music video). Even the lighting scheme was a little Fincher-y - with the blown-out highlights, and green-ish filter. It was cool, but maybe a little overdone. Though subtlety has never been a strong point with SG.

Going handheld in the scene where Carter, Jackson & Teal'c confront the Emissary about Mitchell's whereabouts and during their discussion in the cell was an interesting choice, but I'm not sure it worked. They've tried going handheld at various times in SG1 and SGA lately, usually in an attempt to increase the tension in a scene, but personally I've never felt that the existing level of tension warranted it, it always just came off as a bit gratuitous.

The lighting in the cell was very interesting - Teal'c, Carter and Jackson are lit almost like players on a stage, and the backlighting on Mitchell was very effective.

As first mentioned by knowsfords, a nice reuse of a spiffy prop in the form of the "Revisions" console.


Browder does good angst. And damn, does he look fine in those black scrubs... :D

Walter's stumbling over the medicobabble was cute, yet also in character - he's a 'gateroom tech, that kind of stuff would have no interest or meaning to him.

Quotage:

Mitchell: "I'm hoping there'll be dancing." I also loved Landry's reaction to this line, as though the mental image of Mitchell shaking his booty had just sprung unbidden to mind. lol

Mitchell: "I don't think diplomacy is my thing."
Jackson: "Oh, that's what you're doing..."
Sam: *heehee*


I also admired the shot of the Stargate Command conference room from outside the window. Since I know that the conference room is three stories up, and I'm not sure they can get a camera crane in the Gate Room, they must have had the camera operator on a pretty tall ladder. :P

A Jimmy Jib (http://www.jimmyjib.com/triangle.html) can have up to a 40ft (12m) reach, with full operator control at all times. It's got a fairly small footprint, and can be packed up into four cases for easy transport. :)