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Lord Shiva
December 30th, 2005, 08:40 PM
In the recent Doctor Who series, there is a very moving scene in the episode featuring the return of the Daleks (the "last of the Daleks") where Doctor Who says he is the last of the Time Lords.

Well, I question this - in the original run of the show, the first Incarnation of the Doctor, the one who steals the TARDIS to travel across Time and Space, takes along his granddaughter, Susan Foreman (I love how the Doctor earns his name... the school professor calls him "Doctor Foreman" and his reply "Doctor who?" and thus a name and a show was born *grin*

Anyway, if Susan is Doctor Who's granddaughter, and from what I've heard, she's alive and well somewhere in time, then isn't *she* also a Time Lord?

Easter Lily
December 30th, 2005, 09:39 PM
Based on what you're saying, it's not just Susan either... there's Romana as well... :sheppardanime31:
But I think that a case can be made for a broader use of the word "last"... it can also be used to refer to the remnant of a culture/ethnic group.

Willow'sCat
December 30th, 2005, 09:54 PM
I am the last person to answer this * I know so little about canon* but I always assumed Susan was not his "real" Grand daughter, don't know why but I have always thought she just called him Grand father because he looked old.

Also didn't the TV movie in 1996 say The Doctor was part human? Did I dream that? It is all too confusing for me and it gets worse if you use the Audio/books/fanfic as reference.

All I know is he has said in the new series he is the last. The rest got killed in the Time-Wars which I assume includes Romana and The Master.

IMForeman
December 30th, 2005, 09:54 PM
In the recent Doctor Who series, there is a very moving scene in the episode featuring the return of the Daleks (the "last of the Daleks") where Doctor Who says he is the last of the Time Lords.

Well, I question this - in the original run of the show, the first Incarnation of the Doctor, the one who steals the TARDIS to travel across Time and Space, takes along his granddaughter, Susan Foreman (I love how the Doctor earns his name... the school professor calls him "Doctor Foreman" and his reply "Doctor who?" and thus a name and a show was born *grin*

Anyway, if Susan is Doctor Who's granddaughter, and from what I've heard, she's alive and well somewhere in time, then isn't *she* also a Time Lord?


From The Empty Child:

Doctor Constantine: Before this war began I was a father and a grandfather... now I am neither. But, I am still a Doctor.
The Doctor: Yeah... I know the feeling.


Face it. Susan is toast. And it was unknown if she was actually a Time Lord or just a run of the mill Gallifreyan. Also, Romana was Lord President of Gallifrey when the Time War began... so she's toast as well, presumably.

More on the Time War from Russell T. Davies himself as published in the 2006 Doctor Who Annual:



"There had been a war, the Great Time War, between the Daleks and the Time Lords. There had been two Time Wars before this - the skirmish between the Halldons and the Eternals, and then the brutal slaughter of the Omnicraven Uprising - and on both occasions, the Doctor's people had stepped in to settle the matter.The Time Lords had a policy of non-intervention in the affairs of the universe, but on a higher level, in the affairs of the Time Vortex, they had assumed discreetly the role of protectors. They were the self-appointed keepers of the peace. Until forced to fight.
Now, the story of the Great (and final) Time War is hard to piece together, because so little survived. Certainly, both superpowers had been testing each others' strength for many, many years. The Daleks had threatened the Time Lord High Council before, by trying to replace its members with Dalek duplicates. And one of the Dalek Puppet Emperors had openly declared his hostility. Though perhaps the Daleks' wrath was justifiable - they had been provoked! At one point in their history, the Time Lords had actually sent the Doctor back in time to prevent the creation of the Daleks. An act of genocide! The Time Lords fired the first shot - though in their defence, they took this course of action because they had foreseen a time when the Daleks would overrun all civilised life and become the dominant life-form in the universe.
Some tried to find a peaceful solution. While it's hard to find precise records of these events, it's said that under the Act of Master Restitution, President Romana opened a peace treaty with the Daleks. Others claim that the Etra Prime incident began the escalation of events. But whatever the cause - and it's almost certain that the full story has yet to be uncovered - the terrible Time War began. The Time Lords reached back into their own history, to assemble a fleet of Bowships, Black Hole Carriers and N-Forms; the Daleks unleashed the full might of the Deathsmiths of Goth, and launched an awesome fleet into the Vortex, led by the Emperor himself. The War raged, but for most species in the universe, life continued as normal. The War was fought in the Vortex, and beyond that, in the Ultimate Void, beyond the eyes and ears of ordinary creatures.
The lesser species lived in ignorance. If a planet found it's history subtly changing - perhaps distorting and rewriting itself under the pressures of the rupturing Vortex - then its people were part of that change, and perceived nothing to be wrong. Only the Higher Species - those further up the evolutionary ladder - saw what was happening.
The Forest of Cheem gazed upon the bloodshed, and wept. The Nestene Consciousness lost all of its planets, and found itself mutating under temporal stress. The Greater Animus perished and its Carsenome Walls fell into dust. And it is said that the Eternals themselves watched, and despaired of this reality, and fled their hallowed halls, never to be seen again...
Years passed, as the mighty armies clashed. And then, silence. No one knows what happened in the final battle. And no one knows how it came to an end. All that is known is that one man strode from the wreckage, one man walked free from the ruins of Gallifrey and Skaro. The Time Lord called the Doctor. And his hearts were heavy as he boarded his ship once more, and took to the skies, to escape everything he had just seen; everything he had just done..."

Willow'sCat
December 30th, 2005, 09:59 PM
Face it. Susan is toast. And it was unknown if she was actually a Time Lord or just a run of the mill Gallifreyan. Also, Romana was Lord President of Gallifrey when the Time War began... so she's toast as well, presumably.

More on the Time War from Russell T. Davies himself as published in the 2006 Doctor Who Annual:So even though we don't get to see it, we just have to accept it. :( I hate that, I think canon should be the show and nothing else, but I think I am alone in that. :cool:

Yeah they are all toast. I want to see The Master again.

creed462
December 31st, 2005, 08:13 AM
Nothing is ever certain in Science Fiction We might find out more later Also Susan was on earth when all that happened

Reefgirl
December 31st, 2005, 08:39 AM
Susan left the Tardis to stay on earth with her boyfriend

creed462
December 31st, 2005, 08:43 AM
So she is probly still around, but I don't think she's a timelord.

Reefgirl
December 31st, 2005, 01:33 PM
I remember seeing somewhere that she was half human, but I can't remember where

creed462
December 31st, 2005, 02:56 PM
That would be neat to find

Metarock Sam
December 31st, 2005, 03:12 PM
Perhaps Timelords fell throught time like the Dalek and as a result suffer tremendous Post Regeneration trauma perhasp unwillingly masking their own ablilities and therefore beleiving themselves to be human or a lesser species. That would make a great Doctor Who story.

Deputy-Assistant-Second-Prime
December 31st, 2005, 03:37 PM
Susan's story is so confusing and contradictory.

Is she the Doctor's granddaughter? Well, isn't the Doctor sterile like all the other Gallifreyans? Or did this half-human origin mitigate that?

Is she a Time Lord? I think she was too young to pass the exams necessary to confer the status of Time Lord.

Is she Gallifreyan? She's certainly not a modern Gallifrey, which are loomed into existence as adults. The Gallifreyan race is sterile. Either she is an outsider or she is an ancient Gallifreyan. There are suggestions that the Doctor spent time on ancient Gallifrey.

Lord Shiva
December 31st, 2005, 04:34 PM
I dunno... from watching An Unearthly Child, Susan is his granddaughter,and they stole the Tardis because the other Time Lords would sit around on their butts and not do anything (almost like Q/Ascended), and he wanted to explore Time and Space.

Deputy-Assistant-Second-Prime
December 31st, 2005, 04:49 PM
I dunno... from watching An Unearthly Child, Susan is his granddaughter,and they stole the Tardis because the other Time Lords would sit around on their butts and not do anything (almost like Q/Ascended), and he wanted to explore Time and Space.True, but the show evolved and it became increasingly difficult to confront the complex issue of family for a race that can alter their appearances and live for hundreds of years.

Then, because they had ignored Susan's existence for so long, when the show discussed the Doctor's past or explored Gallifrey, contradictions started to crop up to the point where it was obvious Susan wasn't familar with modern Gallifrey...and yet she knew about ancient Gallifreyan history. To the point, where it didn't even make sense that Susan could be the Doctor's biological granddaughter.

Deputy-Assistant-Second-Prime
December 31st, 2005, 04:57 PM
The novels make many suggestions as to Susan's origins.
There are also suggestions that Susan was the granddaughter of the Doctor before he became a Time Lord...which somehow took place on ancient Gallifrey, before the Doctor had even been born and before the Time Lords had time travel.

Another suggestion was that she was heir to a kingdom, her mother Miranda was the Doctor's daughter, and her name was Zuzan or some other phoenic variation that I can't recall.

Qasim
December 31st, 2005, 06:28 PM
*confused*

orii7
December 31st, 2005, 08:25 PM
From The Empty Child:

Doctor Constantine: Before this war began I was a father and a grandfather... now I am neither. But, I am still a Doctor.
The Doctor: Yeah... I know the feeling.


Face it. Susan is toast. And it was unknown if she was actually a Time Lord or just a run of the mill Gallifreyan. Also, Romana was Lord President of Gallifrey when the Time War began... so she's toast as well, presumably.

More on the Time War from Russell T. Davies himself as published in the 2006 Doctor Who Annual:

i have a few things to say about that whole thing.............

Wow and that was sad and amazing and wonderful and sadly terrible......

Now i know how The Doctor feels :( :( :( :(

Its sad......I must tell the other Incarnations of me on SWG (Star Wars Galaxies) yes im know as The Doctor on it and there r other people who r me
and yes its like we're Roleplaying on a completly diffrent roleplaying game

Deputy-Assistant-Second-Prime
December 31st, 2005, 09:39 PM
*confused*Well, just because I quoted all that, and even read many of the novels, don't think I actually understand how all these pieces are supposed to fit together.

The origins of the Doctor and Susan have become so convoluted, it's like trying to untangle a series of knots.

Deputy-Assistant-Second-Prime
December 31st, 2005, 09:52 PM
*confused*Maybe this will help...or confuse you even further.

Here is my take on the Doctor's origins....
The Doctor had a normal life on ancient Gallifrey born from two parents (one human, one gallifreyan),

sacrificed himself into loom and was reborn as a different full-grown adult,

he was granted a regeneration cycle and regenerated at least once,

sacrificed himself to the loom again, was born as a different full-grown in modern-day Gallifrey, and granted another regeneration cycle. So far, he has used up 9 of those 12 regenerations.

Still confused...try reading this (http://www.gallifreyone.com/guides-canonguide1.php?id=typeall&sn=1) and this (http://www.gallifreyone.com/guides-canonguide1.php?id=typeall&sn=2).

creed462
January 1st, 2006, 01:43 PM
Hopefully some more light will be shed soon

Bomber
January 3rd, 2006, 03:52 PM
I suspect that if the BBC wants to completely remove the rest of the Time Lords from the Doctor Who universe for good then they'll need to do it more conclusively than they've done so far. Besides, how many times did we see the FINAL end of the Daleks? The Cybermen? The Master for that matter?

Just having the Doctor SAY that the Time Lords perished in the Time Wars really isn't good enough, especially given that their arc has been present from the beginning in one form or another. It ain't canon till we see it on the tele, not just hear the Doctor shooting his mouth off :D.

They'll be back. Just like the Doctor.

orii7
January 3rd, 2006, 03:53 PM
Perhaps Timelords fell throught time like the Dalek and as a result suffer tremendous Post Regeneration trauma perhasp unwillingly masking their own ablilities and therefore beleiving themselves to be human or a lesser species. That would make a great Doctor Who story.

Although u had a good idea and i think ur a great guy and i LOVE your sig i hate to say it but thats impossible for Time Lords to fall thru time

They would detect when they will fall thru time and avoid it (some how)
I think if u read pretty much ever book of Doctor Who there is u might get what im saying and know ALOT more about the Time Lords and Gallifrey and its people

Lord Shiva
January 3rd, 2006, 04:45 PM
Well if I can count on the official BBC webpage of Doctor Who to be fact rather then fiction, Susan Foreman (last name taken from the junkyard the TARDIS was stashed in) is, in fact, a Time Lord.

To Quote from the episode summary:

Susan can read very fast, is a brilliant scientist, and calculates in terms of five dimensions [all Time Lord characteristics]. She likes 20th-century England. The children of the Doctor's civilisation are advanced (he doesn't count Susan as a child). There is no suggestion that she isn't his granddaughter. She and the Doctor are cut off from their own planet, without friends. They've been in London for five months [probably mending the TARDIS: the Doctor speaks of replacing a faulty filament].

creed462
January 3rd, 2006, 04:56 PM
Gallefren not nessacerily Time Lord

Deputy-Assistant-Second-Prime
January 3rd, 2006, 07:37 PM
Well if I can count on the official BBC webpage of Doctor Who to be fact rather then fiction, Susan Foreman (last name taken from the junkyard the TARDIS was stashed in) is, in fact, a Time Lord.The BBC website is quoting The Discontinuity Guide and The Television Companion, not the "official" BBC canon guide because in the 26 years of the classic series, little work was done to maintain continuity.

In fact, the two most famous and prolific script editor/writers for the series Terrance Dicks and Robert Holmes are both responsible for some of the biggest continuity problems. Those books mention but do not resolve those issues.

And it's such problems that eventually lead back to questions about the Doctor and Susan. The more we learn about the Doctor and Gallifrey, the more contradictions are revealed.


To Quote from the episode summary:

Susan can read very fast, is a brilliant scientist, and calculates in terms of five dimensions [all Time Lord characteristics]. She likes 20th-century England. The children of the Doctor's civilisation are advanced (he doesn't count Susan as a child). There is no suggestion that she isn't his granddaughter. She and the Doctor are cut off from their own planet, without friends. They've been in London for five months [probably mending the TARDIS: the Doctor speaks of replacing a faulty filament].In particular, that passage is straight out of The Discontinuity Guide, page 6.

Just because the author surmises she has "Time Lord traits" isn't really conclusive.

You simply will not find any reference to Susan being a Time Lord in the series. The term wasn't used until well after her departure (The War Games) and in her guest appearance years later, The Five Doctors, no acknowledgment is made.

However, we know Susan lived on Gallifrey. In The Sensorites, we are told in detail that the Doctor and Susan are both from the same planet. In The Five Doctors, Susan knows about the Tower of Rassilon. The Time Warrior gives us the name Gallifrey. Also, in An Unearthly Child, we learn Susan created the acronym TARDIS in the course of their travels, yet other rogue Time Lords refer to their time capsules as a TARDIS (Time Meddler, The Dalek's Masterplan, The War Games, Terror of the Autons, Mark of the Rani) independently.

However, in The Deadly Assassin and The Invasion of Time, we learn that not all Gallifreyans become Time Lords.

The Doctor makes various references to living in modern Gallifrey, but also makes references to spending time in ancient Gallifrey (Remembrance of the Daleks and Silver Nemesis) which is considered impossible without high level intervention (The Three Doctors, The Five Doctors).

Now, I'm not saying you're wrong for believing Susan is a Time Lord, based strictly on the television series alone. I'm just saying, simply drawing from that source, you can conclusively prove she is a Gallifreyan...but not necessarily a Time Lord.

Also, if we really want to be strict about what is canon, we must look to Russell T. Davies for insight. To me, it seems the classic series, the new series, and the some of the untelevision production notes from the classic series form the basis of the new canon.

It seems the whole Cartmel Plan may be on its way out of canon. I have mixed feelings about that. On the one hand, it's hopelessly detailed and convoluted...relying on arcane references and vague contradictory-sounding suggestions to form a tapesty of utter confusion. And on the other hand, I was just getting used to it after all these years.

creed462
January 4th, 2006, 10:35 AM
What was the Cartmel Plan?

Deputy-Assistant-Second-Prime
January 4th, 2006, 11:06 AM
What was the Cartmel Plan?Andrew Cartmel was the script editor for Seasons 24, 25, and 26. Also, he wrote three Virgin novels in The New Adventures series, one BBC Past Doctor Adventure, one Big Finish audio adventure, and two Telos novellas.

Basically, his plan was to explain all the apparent continuity issues as just hints of a more complex story. The whole McCoy era and the Virgin novel series (The New Adventures & The Missing Adventures) were based on his plan resolve the continuity problems in Doctor Who and return the sense of mystery to the character by hinting about a secret past and his secret plans. The problem, as I saw it, were too many authors were too eager to explain the same issues, resulting in more apparent contradictions. Then they would, in turn, attempt to explain those new contradictions and made the Doctor's backstory even more convoluted. There were some brilliant ideas, but IMO too many cooks in the pot.

Deputy-Assistant-Second-Prime
January 4th, 2006, 11:18 AM
Television needs to keep it simple. RTD has already introduced elements into the new series that have a high potential to permanently contradict the Cartmel Plan.

Now the novel writers have been instructed to end the new adventures of Eighth Doctor, thus preventing them from satisfactorily resolving the conflicts and preventing them from bridging the gap to the Ninth Doctor.

From now on, the writers may only write about the Eighth Doctor past adventures, thus with huge contradictions to explain, it looks as though the Cartmel Plan could be on its way out of canon.

creed462
January 4th, 2006, 02:40 PM
Will that be good or bad?

Deputy-Assistant-Second-Prime
January 4th, 2006, 05:19 PM
Will that be good or bad?Depends on how you feel about that the established continuity of those novels.

Lord Shiva
January 4th, 2006, 08:10 PM
From now on, the writers may only write about the Eighth Doctor past adventures, thus with huge contradictions to explain, it looks as though the Cartmel Plan could be on its way out of canon.

Am I the only one who isn't a contradiction hound and just sits back and enjoys the story? I've seen too many continuity breaks in various shows to really be too worried these days... I usually just stick with the original continuity unless there are SPECIFIC changes that are still in effect... if that makes sense.

Deputy-Assistant-Second-Prime
January 4th, 2006, 08:24 PM
Am I the only one who isn't a contradiction hound and just sits back and enjoys the story? I've seen too many continuity breaks in various shows to really be too worried these days... I usually just stick with the original continuity unless there are SPECIFIC changes that are still in effect... if that makes sense.Well, I've been watching the show for over twenty years, so I've naturally come to see the contradictions.

But no, I don't let it bother me.

You just happened to ask a question about one of most highly debated topics in Doctor Who, and you seemed like you really wanted to debate it. Plus, the novels depicted a very convoluted backstory that required the reader to think about these things. That's all.

Bottom line: The show is so self-contradictory, it can be whatever you want it to be.

creed462
January 5th, 2006, 09:34 AM
Depends on how you feel about that the established continuity of those novels.
Since I haven't read many of the novel That is a not problem

Metarock Sam
January 15th, 2006, 06:45 AM
Bottom line: The show is so self-contradictory, it can be whatever you want it to be.
Truer words have never been spoken.

IMForeman
January 15th, 2006, 08:33 AM
Truer words have never been spoken.

Yes, it's the perils of a show that uses Time Travel. It becomes difficult to avoid contadiction and paradox.


"But that can't work, can it?" said Richard. "If we do that, then this won't have happened. Don't we generate all sorts of paradoxes?"
Reg stirred himself from thought. "No worse than many that exist already," he said. "If the Universe came to an end every time there was some uncertainty about what had happened in it, it would never have got beyond the first picosecond. And many of course don't. It's like a human body, you see. A few cuts and bruises here and there don't hurt it. Not even major surgery if it's done properly. Paradoxes are just the scar tissue. Time and space heal themselves up around them and people simply remember a version of events which makes as much sense as they require it to make. "That isn't to say that if you get involved in a paradox a few things won't strike you as being very odd, but if you've got through life without that already happening to you, then I don't know which Universe you've been living in, but it isn't this one."

creed462
January 15th, 2006, 11:28 AM
Yes, it's the perils of a show that uses Time Travel. It becomes difficult to avoid contadiction and paradox.
Cool what is that from?

IMForeman
January 15th, 2006, 11:44 AM
Cool what is that from?

Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency. The "Reg" that is saying that is Professor Regius Chronotis, who was originally created for the Doctor Who episode Shada.

creed462
January 15th, 2006, 02:16 PM
cool

Reefgirl
January 15th, 2006, 03:03 PM
A Douglas Adams fan then IMForman? so am I, the man was a genius

creed462
January 15th, 2006, 04:41 PM
Yep, he was mostly harmless.

If the master reappeared whould he still be considered a time lord?

Deputy-Assistant-Second-Prime
January 15th, 2006, 04:52 PM
Yep, he was mostly harmless.

If the master reappeared whould he still be considered a time lord?Hmmm, I suppose biologically...no. Good point.

IMForeman
January 15th, 2006, 06:43 PM
A Douglas Adams fan then IMForman? so am I, the man was a genius

He's gone too soon, Reefgirl. Far too soon.

creed462
January 15th, 2006, 07:06 PM
Hmmm, I suppose biologically...no. Good point.
I think now he'd be something slightly different

Reefgirl
January 16th, 2006, 12:06 AM
You can tell who my favorite Hitchhiker charcter is by my sig :D

Metarock Sam
January 16th, 2006, 07:59 AM
^ 'I know gastly isnt it?' Marvin rules all !!!

creed462
January 16th, 2006, 10:41 AM
Mavin cool I like that charecter.

What about the War Cheif or the Medling Monk or the Rani couldn't any of them still be around

Metarock Sam
January 16th, 2006, 12:29 PM
possibly but it is unlikely.

creed462
January 16th, 2006, 12:31 PM
How many reagade Timelord could have not been distroyed

Metarock Sam
January 16th, 2006, 02:48 PM
It depends on what Russel wants Ive got a feeling that no renegade timelords will appear this season but maybe next season.....

creed462
January 16th, 2006, 04:50 PM
Did the loom survive

Craig Ranapia
March 9th, 2006, 02:09 PM
Mavin cool I like that charecter.

What about the War Cheif or the Medling Monk or the Rani couldn't any of them still be around

I doubt it. It's been established that very few Time Lords ever leave Gallifrey - with their vast power they've become a wee bit complacent even decadent about the rest of the universe. And if a situation becomes dire enough, even The Doctor can be forced to come home. I think the Daleks becoming powerful enough to take a massive "Time War" all the way to Gallifrey itself and only able to be stopped by The Doctor destroying the whole world would see any Time Lord away from home killed in very short order, no matter how much s**t they're in with TPTB.

That doesn't mean RTD would never ever bring back, say, Romana or The Master. But I think there would have to be off the back of the mother of all story pitches, considering how controversial it was to wipe out Gallifrey and the rest of the Time Lords in the first place...

creed462
March 9th, 2006, 05:15 PM
Didn't the books have Gallifry wiped out, It would be cool to see Romana

Craig Ranapia
March 9th, 2006, 06:07 PM
Didn't the books have Gallifry wiped out, It would be cool to see Romana

In The Ancestor Cell (http://www.gallifreyone.com/books.php?id=bbc8-36)? Sort of... but trying to sort the Eighth Doctor books into any kind of internal consistency (let alone with the rest of the Who-i-verse) requires a flow chart, a couple of years, the kind of mind that does differential calculus problems in your head for fun, and a twenty gallon drum of Valium. Anyway, the books don't have any canonical status - even through Russell T. Davies wrote one (http://www.gallifreyone.com/books.php?id=na-55) back in the day...

creed462
March 9th, 2006, 06:43 PM
I do hope they will be brought back eventully.

Metarock Sam
March 10th, 2006, 10:46 AM
I think the books are considerd to be non canon. Except from the new 9th and 10th Doctor books.

creed462
March 10th, 2006, 01:08 PM
Do you think they will bring back the time lords

Metarock Sam
March 10th, 2006, 01:23 PM
Im conviced they will. They asoloutely have to bring the Timelords back I don't care how just bring them back !!!

creed462
March 10th, 2006, 08:58 PM
Im conviced they will. They asoloutely have to bring the Timelords back I don't care how just bring them back !!!
I can see a mutible Doctor adventure..... maybe a mini seris

Metarock Sam
March 11th, 2006, 02:19 AM
I dont knwo about a mini series but multiple Doctor episodes would be fantastic.

orii7
March 11th, 2006, 07:07 AM
That would be awsome.

I was thinking about what Doctors they would put in a Multiple Doctors Episode.

Maybe the 7th, 8th and 9th with the 10th? Maybe trying to stop The Master or The Rani or perhaps Omega! Or just another missled Time Lord like Omega.

Metarock Sam
March 11th, 2006, 07:40 AM
I think they could do a 6 Doctors the 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th and 10th Doctors all together. Tom Baker wouldnt do it but if he did come back hed want to be the Master.

creed462
March 11th, 2006, 08:22 AM
Maybe Tom will Change his mind, he is one of the best doctors

Metarock Sam
March 11th, 2006, 01:42 PM
Plus he has kind of 'outgrown' his role.

creed462
March 11th, 2006, 04:33 PM
Maybe, but for a once in a while thing I don't think its a problem

orii7
March 11th, 2006, 07:35 PM
Well heres on thing.....

Colin Baker's face is just not the same at all. hes gotten a little "wide"er (if you are seeing this Colin Baker, i am terribly sorry if that offended you. I never meant to hurt your feelings at all) lol

he doesnt have the curly hair any more nor the orange hair anymore. yes i know about a wig but. I have a hard time pictureing Colin as The 6th Doctor again :(

but it would be nice ot see a 6th Doctor Ep. like metarock Sam had in mind.

Peter Davison can still be The 5th Doctor, just he needs more hair since the last time ive seen him.

I dont think Tom has much of a chance playing the 4th Doctor unless he wears a wig that is almost exactly the same as the hair he had when he played The Doctor.

It would funny seeing the 6th Doctor freak out seeing the 10 Doctor and say "Im or i mean you are almost to....to...." 10th Doctor: "to what?" 6th Doctor: "The Valeyard!!!"

but still idk about the books like somebody said in the thread of "The Last Time Lord?" "the Books are considered Non-Canical" so i guess the book "matrix" doesnt count as Conical so i guess *WARNING SPOILER* The Doctor can still Regenerate into The Valeyard *END OF SPOILER*

ya never know.

Metarock Sam
March 12th, 2006, 04:22 AM
Perhaps some of the books are considerd Canon such as 'Matrix' and 'The Eight Doctors'.

creed462
March 12th, 2006, 01:00 PM
I still think the valeyard will prove to be a clone or something

IMForeman
March 12th, 2006, 01:43 PM
I still think the valeyard will prove to be a clone or something

I still think the Valeyard will be forgotten and never, ever, EVER brought up again.

creed462
March 12th, 2006, 03:14 PM
I hope not, but I hope he isn't the Doctor

orii7
March 12th, 2006, 05:33 PM
That would be an interesting move to see what it would be like with Rose (if she stays for the whole show) and The Doctor Regenerateing into The Valeyard and see how its goes. soon it will be "Valeyard Who" instead of "Doctor Who" lol The Valeyard had a compainion in "He Jest at scars..." so it would be possible for Teh Valeyard to keep Rose with him.

It would be cool to have an episode with The Valeyard appearing to to try to kill The Doctor on one of his Regenerations (like the 10th maybe) taht might be what Stephen Fry had in mind or tahts what his episode is about. It would be AWSOME if it was like that.

I think that the book "The Eight Doctors" is non-canocal (Its description is about where he just Regenerated and he lost his memory all he knows is hes The Doctor and the TARDIS is his so he goes and meets all of his previous lives thus makeing The Movie not even Conacal so The Master is alive and The Doctor would know it and tell Rose that in the series)

I think that if "Matrix" is Canoncal, then I would be very dissapointed. I want to see The valeyard. I want to see what he does. I want to see him Wreak Havoc and The Doctor try to stop him (maybe thats kinda what "The Satan Pit" will be like)

Or maye The Universe where The Valeyard won comes to our Universe and tries to kill The Doctor. SO he would be kinda like a clone. sorta. kinda. ya never know.

Or maybe there will be an Episode with all of The Doctors try to stop The Valeyard, The Master (if hes alive), The Rani (if shes alive) and maybe Omega or whatever. Would be a nice movie.

IMForeman
March 12th, 2006, 07:50 PM
Listen... the Valeyard was a really, really BAD Idea. They need to forget it and never bring it up again. Never, ever...

Metarock Sam
March 13th, 2006, 11:10 AM
In the eight Doctors the Doctor loses his memory after touching a tear from the eye of harmony. The masters last trap. But he is helped by the Tardis and Rassilon to regain his memory by visiting his regenerations. it also explain how the master turned into the snake thing. Thus making it Canon.

Craig Ranapia
March 13th, 2006, 12:03 PM
Listen... the Valeyard was a really, really BAD Idea. They need to forget it and never bring it up again. Never, ever...

I don't know if it was necessarily a bad idea, as much as poorly executed - and I know it's easy to trash Colin Baker, but I think he's much under-rated and was just a convenient scapegoat for BBC executives. IMO, you can't blame CB and Sylvester McCoy for not being able to turn around bad writing & shoddy production single-handed. If you want to see a season long arc done properly in Who go for had to work with.

But I digress... Time Lord have a history of becoming eccentric, if not downright malicious, towards the end of their life cycle - of course, The Master (http://outpostgallifrey.net/episode.php?id=4p) is the gold standard for near-death evil, but there's a number of other examples. And is it just me, or does The Doctor seem to be getting darker with each regeneration. I mean, I almost swallowed by tongue when at the end of The End of the World (http://outpostgallifrey.net/episode.php?id=2005-02) (link contains spoilers) a visibly furious Doctor just stood by and let Cassandra explode. That was a real WTF! moment for me, because The Doctor just doesn't do that kind of thing. Does he?

creed462
March 13th, 2006, 12:14 PM
I agree It was a bad idea, but I also think it was to big to just ignore, It will be on all the old fans minds, so it must be resolved, in a way the doctor will not turn evil

Metarock Sam
March 13th, 2006, 12:18 PM
Perhaps they ahould de an episode when he next regenerates with him being evil or something like that.

creed462
March 13th, 2006, 12:21 PM
No, I don't think the doctor should turn evil

Metarock Sam
March 13th, 2006, 12:34 PM
Well perhasp he can be controlled like in the invisible enemy or whatever ep it is when the Doctor is controlled by the Rutans in an attempt to destroy Gallifrey.

creed462
March 13th, 2006, 12:47 PM
Thats better, or they could do a highlander thing and the Doctor Good and Bad side have a fight, but I don't like the Idea of an evil doctor

IMForeman
March 13th, 2006, 12:58 PM
I don't know if it was necessarily a bad idea, as much as poorly executed - and I know it's easy to trash Colin Baker, but I think he's much under-rated and was just a convenient scapegoat for BBC executives. IMO, you can't blame CB and Sylvester McCoy for not being able to turn around bad writing & shoddy production single-handed. If you want to see a season long arc done properly in Who go for had to work with.

Did I say a word against Sylvester McCoy or Colin Baker? Nor will you ever hear me do so. The 7th Doc is easily one of my favorites. The 6th Doc has been fab in audio form. I will say negative things about Pip and Jane Baker, though, with their Megabyte Modems and the Valeyard. Awful, turgid work from those two.


But I digress... Time Lord have a history of becoming eccentric, if not downright malicious, towards the end of their life cycle - of course, The Master (http://outpostgallifrey.net/episode.php?id=4p) is the gold standard for near-death evil, but there's a number of other examples. And is it just me, or does The Doctor seem to be getting darker with each regeneration. I mean, I almost swallowed by tongue when at the end of The End of the World (http://outpostgallifrey.net/episode.php?id=2005-02) (link contains spoilers) a visibly furious Doctor just stood by and let Cassandra explode. That was a real WTF! moment for me, because The Doctor just doesn't do that kind of thing. Does he?

I took that as a Batman Begins sort of thing I'm not going to kill you... but I don't have to save you." If refusing to save someone who has brought about the circumstances of her own demise is murder, then it might be shocking. It's not even certain the Doctor could have saved her... where would he have gotten the water, from the Face of Boe? I don't know that the Doctor really is any more or less dark now than ever. Watch "Tomb of the Cybermen"... the Second Doctor acts very much like the 7th in that story.


I agree It was a bad idea, but I also think it was to big to just ignore, It will be on all the old fans minds, so it must be resolved, in a way the doctor will not turn evil

It really doesn't though, not as long as they keep the Doctor's lifecycle indeterminate. If the Doctor somehow has more than 12 regenerations, and the exact number isn't given, then the Valeyard would always exist somewhere in the theoretical future. The Master said the Valeyard came from "somewhere between your 12th and final regeneration." Cleverly worded there (couldn't have been Pip and Jane)... 12th and final. Not 12th and 13th. Final could be any number. "Somewhere between your 12th and 135th incarnation" could be the case. He can just be dropped. Especially since the new series keeps itself from getting bogged down in old series continuity wherever possible.

-IMF

creed462
March 13th, 2006, 01:05 PM
I don't like having that dreadful future hanging over the doctor though

Metarock Sam
March 13th, 2006, 01:44 PM
I think we will have to ask what RTD and co have to say on the matter. Eventually perhaps they could talk about the Valyard in one of the Doctor Who confidentials this year.

creed462
March 13th, 2006, 02:00 PM
Maybe so, but I am hoping they will end that story line once and for all

orii7
March 13th, 2006, 03:06 PM
Actually, If u listend closely to some of his explanations about him, The Doctor (and every other Time Lord, i think) has 13 Regenerations not anywhere over 13.

But there could be a way he finds the Machine that Loomed him (if it was a Machine that did that) so he can get 13 more lives. Thus, giveing more Regenerations and more time for teh show and more stories! :D

Whether or not it happens.....The Valeyard must come. or Perhaps.....and Evil Doctor! or maybe he will be evil then stnap out of it. or maybe he will be evil in one Regeneration and then good in the other Regeneration? I also would like to say..................................




DO NOT MAKE THE DOCTOR REGENERATE INTO A GIRL!!!!!!!!!!! THAT WILL BE VERY VERY SCAREY!!!!! lol

Willow'sCat
March 13th, 2006, 03:18 PM
Says YOU!!!! :P

creed462
March 13th, 2006, 03:24 PM
I don't know about scary, but hard to accept

IMForeman
March 13th, 2006, 04:32 PM
Actually, If u listend closely to some of his explanations about him, The Doctor (and every other Time Lord, i think) has 13 Regenerations not anywhere over 13.

But there could be a way he finds the Machine that Loomed him (if it was a Machine that did that) so he can get 13 more lives. Thus, giveing more Regenerations and more time for teh show and more stories! :D

Whether or not it happens.....The Valeyard must come. or Perhaps.....and Evil Doctor! or maybe he will be evil then stnap out of it. or maybe he will be evil in one Regeneration and then good in the other Regeneration? I also would like to say..................................


No, he and other Time Lords are said to have 12 Regenerations... 13 Doctors, but 12 Regenerations. This, however, is entirely immaterial. If the 13th Doctor comes round, and it's still popular and making money when he decides to leave, do you really think they'll end it because the old series happened to set an arbitrary number for regeneration limits? No!

13th Doctor: It's the end... for real this time. I have no more Regenerations.
Probably female, probably hot Companion: You can't die Doctor! Please don't die!
The 13th Doctor dies, an energy field envelopes him and the 14th Doctor sits up.
Probably female, probably hot Companion: What happened?
14th Doctor: I don't know.

That's it! That's all you have to do to get the Doctor past that arbitrary limit. You can come up with an explanation if you want to, like the Time War eradication of Gallifrey extended the Doctor's regeneration cycle to an indefinite but finite number. Not an endless supply, he's not immortal, it definitely has an end. But, they shouldn't actually give a number so that they never run into the life limit again. And maybe it'll be more dramatic if every life could be his last.

The Valeyard also can be eliminated by simply moving him into the far future, or the Time War simply having eradicated him from the time line. Personally, I think it would be best for the series to never even mention him again. A good chunk of the fan base for the new series never saw the old one, and the Valeyard is one of the most continuity laden bits of flotsam that needs to be forgotten.

creed462
March 13th, 2006, 04:40 PM
Thats a good Idea, that the death of the Time Lords gave him a lot of generations, How bout this one, he is the Other, so he has Infinte

IMForeman
March 13th, 2006, 04:46 PM
Thats a good Idea, that the death of the Time Lords gave him a lot of generations, How bout this one, he is the Other, so he has Infinte

Then he's immortal, and the show gets boring.

Deputy-Assistant-Second-Prime
March 13th, 2006, 05:08 PM
Then he's immortal, and the show gets boring.Then give him a sword and have the writers plot flashback sequences to occur at ten second intervals. :D

Oh, great...now I can't get Princes of the Universe out of my head. :D

Willow'sCat
March 13th, 2006, 05:18 PM
I don't know about scary, but hard to acceptWell maybe for some a female Doctor is off putting, I find it quite interesting. It will not happen on the show but I still find it an interesting idea. ;)

Deputy-Assistant-Second-Prime
March 13th, 2006, 05:25 PM
Well maybe for some a female Doctor is off putting, I find it quite interesting. It will not happen on the show but I still find it an interesting idea. ;)I don't think a female "Doctor" is off-putting, because we essentially had that with Romana.

I think the idea of a specific character I grew up watching just randomly changing gender is...disturbing.

orii7
March 13th, 2006, 05:29 PM
No, he and other Time Lords are said to have 12 Regenerations... 13 Doctors, but 12 Regenerations. This, however, is entirely immaterial. If the 13th Doctor comes round, and it's still popular and making money when he decides to leave, do you really think they'll end it because the old series happened to set an arbitrary number for regeneration limits? No!

13th Doctor: It's the end... for real this time. I have no more Regenerations.
Probably female, probably hot Companion: You can't die Doctor! Please don't die!
The 13th Doctor dies, an energy field envelopes him and the 14th Doctor sits up.
Probably female, probably hot Companion: What happened?
14th Doctor: I don't know.

That's it! That's all you have to do to get the Doctor past that arbitrary limit. You can come up with an explanation if you want to, like the Time War eradication of Gallifrey extended the Doctor's regeneration cycle to an indefinite but finite number. Not an endless supply, he's not immortal, it definitely has an end. But, they shouldn't actually give a number so that they never run into the life limit again. And maybe it'll be more dramatic if every life could be his last.

The Valeyard also can be eliminated by simply moving him into the far future, or the Time War simply having eradicated him from the time line. Personally, I think it would be best for the series to never even mention him again. A good chunk of the fan base for the new series never saw the old one, and the Valeyard is one of the most continuity laden bits of flotsam that needs to be forgotten.

Yes yes yes i know. The Valeyard is an interesting thing to see in the series. Some people (who cant handle The Valeyard comeing back maybe) may hate to see him. Its interesting to have the Darkness of The Doctor come out. Thats how The Valeyard came. It could happen to any of his Regens.

Now im ok with him going past the 13th Regen. but as long as they dont do that too much and/or they make the ways for The Doctor haveing more Regens. a good way and not stupid (not saying that any thing about Doctor Who or any ways of The Doctor comeing back is stupid.)

The Writers must come up with something good or else it will be very dissapointing.

Now i agree with The Doctor changeing Genders being Disturbing. too nasty to me. im ok with "The Curse Of Fatal Death"

IMForeman
March 13th, 2006, 05:36 PM
I don't think a female "Doctor" is off-putting, because we essentially had that with Romana.

I think the idea of a specific character I grew up watching just randomly changing gender is...disturbing.

Russel T. Davies last year said he wouldn't make the Doctor a woman, because he wouldn't want a bunch of little boys upset that the Doctor lost his willie.

Willow'sCat
March 13th, 2006, 05:47 PM
Russel T. Davies last year said he wouldn't make the Doctor a woman, because he wouldn't want a bunch of little boys upset that the Doctor lost his willie.Yeah I read that too, Lol :P

I grew up with only WonderWoman :rolleyes: as a heroine on TV. I mean really could she have worn less? There was the Bionic Women too.

I wanted a female Doctor; it was real need I had to be able to look up to a female on TV that was smart and didn't need to wear next to nothing while she was being smart. ;) Although I liked WonderWomen, if the Doctor had of been female from say Tom onwards I would have been really happy. *I know it won't happen*

Lord Shiva
March 13th, 2006, 07:38 PM
No, he and other Time Lords are said to have 12 Regenerations... 13 Doctors, but 12 Regenerations. This, however, is entirely immaterial. If the 13th Doctor comes round, and it's still popular and making money when he decides to leave, do you really think they'll end it because the old series happened to set an arbitrary number for regeneration limits? No!

13th Doctor: It's the end... for real this time. I have no more Regenerations.
Probably female, probably hot Companion: You can't die Doctor! Please don't die!
The 13th Doctor dies, an energy field envelopes him and the 14th Doctor sits up.
Probably female, probably hot Companion: What happened?
14th Doctor: I don't know.

That's it!

No, you forgot the hours of shagging that follows.

Lord Shiva
March 13th, 2006, 07:39 PM
Yeah I read that too, Lol :P

I grew up with only WonderWoman :rolleyes: as a heroine on TV. I mean really could she have worn less? There was the Bionic Women too.

I wanted a female Doctor; it was real need I had to be able to look up to a female on TV that was smart and didn't need to wear next to nothing while she was being smart. ;) Although I liked WonderWomen, if the Doctor had of been female from say Tom onwards I would have been really happy. *I know it won't happen*

What's wrong with women wearing next to nothing? I'm not against men wearing next to nothing... let 'em flex their muscles :P

IMForeman
March 13th, 2006, 08:07 PM
Yeah I read that too, Lol :P

I grew up with only WonderWoman :rolleyes: as a heroine on TV. I mean really could she have worn less? There was the Bionic Women too.

I wanted a female Doctor; it was real need I had to be able to look up to a female on TV that was smart and didn't need to wear next to nothing while she was being smart. ;) Although I liked WonderWomen, if the Doctor had of been female from say Tom onwards I would have been really happy. *I know it won't happen*

Yeah, Wonder Woman doesn't wear much, but to be fair, Male Superheroes in the classic vein wear skintight spandex with briefs on the outside.

creed462
March 14th, 2006, 07:30 AM
maybe they could use a mutible Doctor aventure where he restores Gallifrey and in the procress gets more regenerations

Metarock Sam
March 14th, 2006, 09:03 AM
You never know. Anythings possible...

creed462
March 14th, 2006, 10:31 AM
They could even pull in the White and Black Gardiens

orii7
March 14th, 2006, 02:08 PM
You never know. Anythings possible...

He's Right.

Besides, This is a Time Travel type of show. So yes....anything is possible.

I like the idea of a multiple Doctors Episode about where the restore Gallifrey. sounds awsome. :)

Metarock Sam
March 14th, 2006, 02:51 PM
Ah but if the Doctor alters history the Reapers will be upon him.

orii7
March 14th, 2006, 03:20 PM
Ah but if the Doctor alters history the Reapers will be upon him.

ahh, thats true! I forgot about that.

BTW I read about The Valeyard somewhere (im not telling where) saying that The Doctor dies sometime on his 12th Regeneration and witnesses a Cataclismic Event, Releaseing all of the Doctor's Dark Nature. This new guise calls himself "The Valeyard"

So The Valeyard is his 13th life.

And The Doctor or Doctors Restore gallifrey, it doesnt have to be when Gallifrey gets destroyed, it could be in the future where Gallifrey is still destroyed.

creed462
March 14th, 2006, 03:53 PM
Ah but if the Doctor alters history the Reapers will be upon him.
Thats why we need more then one Doctor

Willow'sCat
March 14th, 2006, 09:41 PM
maybe they could use a mutible Doctor aventure where he restores Gallifrey and in the procress gets more regenerationsI don't want that, I want the 13th (life) and then a huge Movie and a fab send off, like I said elsewhere it could take ten more years for the current series to end, it could also take one more series :eek: if the ratings go down, but in theory ten years is likely. I think by then it would be time to put it to rest, or maybe just make movies with different actors and not mention regenerations again (kind of like a scifi James Bond). ;)

IMForeman
March 14th, 2006, 09:57 PM
You guys are still thinking way too insularly; old series fans insisting on the perspective of the old series. The new series is just that: a new series. It uses the original series as a backstory, but it doesn't require you to know or have seen the original series. This is not likely to change. If things are going strong when the 13th Doctor quits, they will just continue on to the 14th. They may make an issue of explaining it, or they may just ignore the limit. RTD has already said that will not allow the old series to act as a straightjacket to new stories. They won't stop at 13 and they almost certainly won't bring up the Valeyard as he relies on having seen Trial of A Timelord. Sarah Jane doesn't require much of an explanation. "She travelled with me for a while a long time ago" is all she needs. The Valeyard needs a whole rigmarole of knowing old series minutea. It's not gonna happen.

Willow'sCat
March 14th, 2006, 10:48 PM
You guys are still thinking way too insularly; old series fans insisting on the perspective of the old series. The new series is just that: a new series. It uses the original series as a backstory, but it doesn't require you to know or have seen the original series. This is not likely to change. If things are going strong when the 13th Doctor quits, they will just continue on to the 14th. They may make an issue of explaining it, or they may just ignore the limit. RTD has already said that will not allow the old series to act as a straightjacket to new stories. They won't stop at 13 and they almost certainly won't bring up the Valeyard as he relies on having seen Trial of A Timelord. Sarah Jane doesn't require much of an explanation. "She travelled with me for a while a long time ago" is all she needs. The Valeyard needs a whole rigmarole of knowing old series minutea. It's not gonna happen.You are not thinking about how big the fandom is it is larger then most and well quite frankly scarier than any I have come across when it comes to what they will put up with, you can say if you like that new fans would take it all in their stride but I am here to tell you us older ones will not just except a 14th (life) regeneration without good reason. RTD is as far as I can make out referring to the more inconsistent theories and less then accurate cannon within the series and the books, not the regenerations.

The whole mystic of The Doctor IMO comes down to the Time Lords and the regenerations, I am not willing to just forget all I know or think I know, so the BBC can make more money. :cool:

This is not like BSG, it just isn't. :cool:

IMForeman
March 15th, 2006, 06:48 AM
You are not thinking about how big the fandom is it is larger then most and well quite frankly scarier than any I have come across when it comes to what they will put up with, you can say if you like that new fans would take it all in their stride but I am here to tell you us older ones will not just except a 14th (life) regeneration without good reason. RTD is as far as I can make out referring to the more inconsistent theories and less then accurate cannon within the series and the books, not the regenerations.

The whole mystic of The Doctor IMO comes down to the Time Lords and the regenerations, I am not willing to just forget all I know or think I know, so the BBC can make more money. :cool:

This is not like BSG, it just isn't. :cool:

You may not accept a 14th Doc without good reason, but ultimately, the Producers and the BBC probably won't care what you will or will not accept, and will just go ahead and do it.

creed462
March 15th, 2006, 07:55 AM
They might not have to give an expilnation at frist, only later drop the explination, It would be fun watching the Doctor tring to figure out why he has a 14th body :)

orii7
March 15th, 2006, 03:07 PM
You may not accept a 14th Doc without good reason, but ultimately, the Producers and the BBC probably won't care what you will or will not accept, and will just go ahead and do it.

dude! Not to affend you but. Do u even know what might big time happen???

The rateings will go down because lots of the fans will be dissapointed and will not accept The Doctor haveing a 14th Regen.

Then the show might be canceled because of that move!

But it depends if everybody will or wont accept the Doctor with a 14th Regen.

But i do like the idea of The Doctor trying to figure out why he has a 14th life. lol I can just see him going "What in the world??" over and over and over again trying his best to think. lol

IMForeman
March 15th, 2006, 03:47 PM
dude! Not to affend you but. Do u even know what might big time happen???

The rateings will go down because lots of the fans will be dissapointed and will not accept The Doctor haveing a 14th Regen.

Then the show might be canceled because of that move!

But it depends if everybody will or wont accept the Doctor with a 14th Regen.

But i do like the idea of The Doctor trying to figure out why he has a 14th life. lol I can just see him going "What in the world??" over and over and over again trying his best to think. lol

"Dude"? Really? Did you just say 'Dude" without irony?

Anyway, not to offend you, but you haven't the foggiest idea what the reality of this situation is. The old school fans are making up a very SMALL portion of the new series viewing figures. Very small. A good chunk of the new series fans either a.) Are old enough to have seen the original series but never got into it or b.) Never saw it because it went off before they were born. Then there's the old school fans in there too. The reality is that many wouldn't know or care that they'd violated the arbitrary regeneration limit. And a good percentage of the old school fans, including myself, wouldn't give two smegs if they just kept the Doctor's lives going, because the alternative would be the show ends. Most old school fans have accepted and embraced the new series so far, even though it has many things they swore they'd never accept. Fans whine until they see things in context, then they usually fall into a fairly predictable 80/20 split of "loved it/hated it." Trust me, when Doctor 14 comes around, it will cause discussion among the fans, but the rating won't but ripple.

And oh... in the future, please don't use txt/spk please. It hurts the eyes.

Mattathias2.0
March 15th, 2006, 04:42 PM
I loved Tom Baker as The 4th Doctor.

I haven't seen any of the new series, but David Tennant as The 10th Doctor looks hot (Hey! I have a thing for Brits!).

Mattathias

Craig Ranapia
March 15th, 2006, 05:13 PM
Did I say a word against Sylvester McCoy or Colin Baker? Nor will you ever hear me do so.

No, but the poor buggers get a lot of stick - and Colin Baker has the dubious distinction of being the only Doctor to be fired. And good on the man - and Sylvester McCoy - for being so supportive of Who fandom and the revival despite their less than happy experiences with the BBC. Baker, justifiably IMO, was so angry at being sacked he refused to come back and shoot a one-off regeneration story to open season 24.

I was just making the larger point (though not particularly well) that I didn't think The Valeyard was a "bad idea", just a poorly-written and executed one as so many of the Sixth and Seventh Doctor's adventure were.

And, of course, if Doctor Who is still going strong when the Twelfth Doctor hands in his Tardis key TPTB will find a way to give the Doctor a whole new cycle of regenerations. I mean, if The Master can cheat death I'm sure The Doctor can find a way without being a body-snatching ghoul placing the whole universe in peril (yet again). :p


Anyway, not to offend you, but you haven't the foggiest idea what the reality of this situation is. The old school fans are making up a very SMALL portion of the new series viewing figures. Very small. A good chunk of the new series fans either a.) Are old enough to have seen the original series but never got into it or b.) Never saw it because it went off before they were born. Then there's the old school fans in there too. The reality is that many wouldn't know or care that they'd violated the arbitrary regeneration limit.

Dude (and I say that with every ounce of irony in my body), I don't want to be condescending, but unless you've got a hell of a source inside the BBC I doubt you know any more about the demographics of the Who audience than I do. What I like about the revival is that Russell T. Davies does keep a good balance between the Old Whovians and the newbies. I'm not psychotic and certainly don't want to be a nit-picky bore, but it would be nice if there was some acknowledgement that, in the show's mythos, even the fabulously ancient and powerful Time Lords aren't immortal, and those who try end up paying a terrible price. It's a lesson in SF that goes all the way back to Frankenstein, and beyond.

Hell, the Ninth Doctor is drowning in his own despair at still being alive - and some of the most (http://www.gallifreyone.com/episode.php?id=2005-03) moving (http://www.gallifreyone.com/episode.php?id=2005-10) moments (http://www.gallifreyone.com/episode.php?id=2005-08) (WARNING: Links contain spoilers. Follow at own risk.) in the new series are where he remembers (or is reminded) that life may be finite, but it's also infinitely precious. Of course, the BBC will carry on with Doctor Who if it's still a hit after the 12th - or 13th, or the 100th - Doctor hands in his (or her) TARDIS key. The whole idea of "regeneration" is arbitrary,when you get right down to it, because TPTB couldn't force William Hartnell to stay but they didn't want to end an enormously popular show either, or pull the James Bond/soap trick of just recasting the lead and hope willing suspension of disbelief does the rest. But it would be nice if RTD did so in a way that acknowledged a part of the continuity that isn't only rather important, but has driven one of Who's best (and most popular) stories. Just thinking about the "crispy" Master in The Deadly Assassin still gives me the craps after nearly thirty years.

IMForeman
March 15th, 2006, 05:30 PM
And, of course, if Doctor Who is still going strong when the Twelfth Doctor hands in his Tardis key TPTB will find a way to give the Doctor a whole new cycle of regenerations.

Thirteenth Doctor would be the last one in a traditional regeneration cycle.

orii7
March 15th, 2006, 08:51 PM
"Dude"? Really? Did you just say 'Dude" without irony?

Anyway, not to offend you, but you haven't the foggiest idea what the reality of this situation is. The old school fans are making up a very SMALL portion of the new series viewing figures. Very small. A good chunk of the new series fans either a.) Are old enough to have seen the original series but never got into it or b.) Never saw it because it went off before they were born. Then there's the old school fans in there too. The reality is that many wouldn't know or care that they'd violated the arbitrary regeneration limit. And a good percentage of the old school fans, including myself, wouldn't give two smegs if they just kept the Doctor's lives going, because the alternative would be the show ends. Most old school fans have accepted and embraced the new series so far, even though it has many things they swore they'd never accept. Fans whine until they see things in context, then they usually fall into a fairly predictable 80/20 split of "loved it/hated it." Trust me, when Doctor 14 comes around, it will cause discussion among the fans, but the rating won't but ripple.

And oh... in the future, please don't use txt/spk please. It hurts the eyes.

Ok ok im sorry. Sorry sorry sorry! So far, U dont have any Proof of this. Do I have proof? No but the sorta stuff i said happend alot. You might think the same way I do about this but diffrent (sorry if i confused you, i confused myself too lol)

And i dont get it when u said "Dude"? Really? Did you just say "dude" without irony?" what the heck do you mean? Its not supposed to be bad.

IMForeman
March 15th, 2006, 09:59 PM
Ok ok im sorry. Sorry sorry sorry! So far, U dont have any Proof of this. Do I have proof? No but the sorta stuff i said happend alot. You might think the same way I do about this but diffrent (sorry if i confused you, i confused myself too lol)



Ok, before I go and get into the evidence for my position. The word is spelled "You" not U. U is not a word, it's a letter. It's annoying.

Ok, the evidence.

First: The current producers have already gone on record that they won't let continuity from the old series conflict with good stories for the new series. If they get to Doc 14, they will keep going regardless of the old series limit. They may mention it, and come up with a simple explanation, because it really is just a matter of saying "this is why"... then who cares, we get more "Doctor Who."

Second: Fandom will ulitmately accept it, and move on. Three words... Organic Web Shooters. Before the Spider-Man movie came out fandom was all up in arms about the organic web shooters. "That stinks!", "I won't accept it!", "Raimi is ruining the movie!", "The movie's gonna tank! Nobody will see it!", etc...

Then Spider-Man comes out, almost all of fandom embraces it and loves it, and the Organic Web Shooters not only turned out to be a complete non-issue, but actually made for some decent jokes.

I've seen it happen time and time again with fandom... fans get worked up about some minor point of contention and it always turns out to be nothing. The Doctor's continued regenerations? Same thing.

This too shall pass.

creed462
March 16th, 2006, 08:33 AM
I know it will pass, I want the Doctor to have more regenerations, I think it would be a good arc if he is perplexed to why and has to find out

orii7
March 16th, 2006, 04:16 PM
Now i feel like the bad guy of the thread :(

Im just spelling in shorter ways. Not to be annoying. Everybody who plays almost every Online game (as i know) spells that way or doesnt have enough room to spell the whole word out. Its not supposed to be annoying. Its supposed ot be shorter.

I hope The Doctor lasts for more and more Regenerations. As long as they have a good explanaton for it, I will like it.

Sorry for being so....Negitive or annoying or whatever :(

IMForeman
March 16th, 2006, 04:42 PM
Now i feel like the bad guy of the thread :(

Im just spelling in shorter ways. Not to be annoying. Everybody who plays almost every Online game (as i know) spells that way or doesnt have enough room to spell the whole word out. Its not supposed to be annoying. Its supposed ot be shorter.

I hope The Doctor lasts for more and more Regenerations. As long as they have a good explanaton for it, I will like it.

Sorry for being so....Negitive or annoying or whatever :(

When you are in an online game, and time is of the essence, I can understand the need for brevity. This is a message board. Nothing is going to kill you while you are typing. Take your time, write things out.

Willow'sCat
March 16th, 2006, 10:31 PM
Anyway, not to offend you, but you haven't the foggiest idea what the reality of this situation is. The old school fans are making up a very SMALL portion of the new series viewing figures. Very small. Some factual sorce for this opinon of yours please? :cool:

creed462
March 17th, 2006, 07:29 AM
I would imagine that the old audience is why the following is so large

Metarock Sam
March 17th, 2006, 11:35 AM
Look if it wasn't for the fans there would be no new Doctor Who being made at all no Big Finish etc. The Fans truly are at the center of the Whoniverse.

orii7
April 7th, 2006, 02:14 PM
I highly agree.

If there wasnt any old fans watching the new Doctor Who then it would have been cancelled already or probably would have very low rateings.

So there is old fans watching it. No matter what you think. There are old fans watching it.