F-302 propulsion compared to Death Glider

[SaberBlade]

when it comes to the propulsion systems of each vehicle, which is better?

i can't stop help thinking that it would be the Death Glider. they have a single engine, with no visible output, which has the ability to enter and leave a planets atmosphere and can do 1 million mph.

the F-302 on the other hand, it needs 2 engines. 1 for planetary/space and 1 to get from the planet to space which seems to have a limited fuel supply.

i'm not up with all the technical details about the ship, but which would be better.

please don't say F-302 because it has some form of limited hyperspace capabilities, but to me the Death Glider seems better because we've never heard anything about them being refueled (that i remember) and i really doubt the F-302 thrusters can reach 1 millon mph

[immhotep]

it can reach 1million MPH??? where does it say that about the death glider.
The F-302 is much more manuverable than the glider, in many respects, in fragile balence this is stated. and so IMO id go with the 302 to be the best craft.

[Mister Oragahn]

As long as a death glider has energy to run, operationnal engines and hits no massive object, it could virtually reach speeds near c.

F-302 seems to be short range fighters, but I'm not sure of that.

However, in Exodus, we've seen how a DG, starting from a position not far from a star, could reach an inhabitable and relatively warm looking planet, which means a fairly good distance.

[SaberBlade]

it can reach 1million MPH??? where does it say that about the death glider.
The F-302 is much more manuverable than the glider, in many respects, in fragile balence this is stated. and so IMO id go with the 302 to be the best craft.

in Tangent, when the X-301 flies into space, Vidrine asks Davies how fast it is going and he says 1 million mph.

i know the F-302's have better manverablity especially in combat with a Death Glider, but a 1 million mph dogfight would be a waste of time so the DG has to slow down.

[Dutch_Razor]

1 000 000 mile/hour (mph) = 447 040 meter/second

Lightspeed: 299.792.458 meters/second

So if the X-301 was using deathgliders it would be nowhere near lightspeed.

But we've never seen the DC's get refueled, but maybe they just get refueled in the mothership when they dock, that would seem obvious.

I don't think DCs have ZPMs on them...

[dutchmega]

I think the DC's are running at (liquid?) naquadah for their engines. If I remember Lost City Part 2 correctly, the 302's aren't that bad compared to DC's.

[Jarnin]

But we've never seen the DC's get refueled, but maybe they just get refueled in the mothership when they dock, that would seem obvious.

They're probably powered by a naquadah reactor-like device, and use electric propulsion of one form or another to get from A to B.

They'd only need to refuel their reactors every few months or years.

I don't think DCs have ZPMs on them...

Uh, I think that would be a safe assumption.

I think the DC's are running at (liquid?) naquadah for their engines.

They've never stated as much, but I suppose it's possible.

If I remember Lost City Part 2 correctly, the 302's aren't that bad compared to DC's.

No offense, but the F-302s are as fictional as the Death Gliders are. Even with inertial dampeners that operate at 90%, there simply isn't enough room on the craft to store the fuel needed for all the various types of engines and ranges it needs to cover.
The F-302 has three types of STL propulsion:

1. Air Breathing Jets: For atmospheric flight
2. Modified Aerospike Engines: For orbital flight
3. Rocket Booster: Supposedly to get it out of Earth orbit.

The problem is that all of those different types of propulsion systems would require different types of fuel to operate. The jet engines would need jet fuel, and the aerospike/rock booster would probably run on something like LOX and liquid hydrogen.
Also, there has never been any mention of maneuvering thrusters, so how the ship is able to maneuver in space is still a mystery, which is no surprise considering the fact that the F-302 maneuvers in space just like it does in the atmosphere (which is impossible).

So what it boils down to is this: Both the F-302 and the Deathglider are vehicles that are powered by Deus Ex Machina. There is no "better" , because when the writers want to make one superior, they can just add another layer of technobabble to explain it away.

[SmallTimePerson]

the F-302 maneuvers in space just like it does in the atmosphere (which is impossible).

its not impossible, may just be that the f-302 has crap handling in space.

[dutchmega]

its not impossible, may just be that the f-302 has crap handling in space.

Or we just remember this is fiction and TPTB can't do everything like it's real

[Dutch_Razor]

Well, if we go over it that way you couldn't make any specualtions about aspects which are yet to be mentioned. (in reply to Jarnin)

[RA the sun god]

well a deathglider is stated to have superior manuvering abilities to all earth craft with the exeption of the f-302 the only reason it looks otherwise is because jaffa pilots preffer constant speed attks e.g a glider controlled by a jaffa always flies low in a straight line shooting apart from a few exeptions but when jack oneil flew a death glider while chasing a alkesh he performed manuvers that wuldnt be possible on a earth craft(i cant remember the epp name sorry) it is reasonable to assume that a death glider is superior in MANY ways the only reason they havent won alot is this:
1.the jaffa constant speed thing
2.the lack of long/short range guided weapons(a death glider will always loose against a f-302 because all they have are pooey pilots and naff fixed staff cannons and put that against the f-302's highly trained pilots and long/short range guided misiles u see the reason they always loose)
and i am sure somewhere it is stated that death gliders runn on a naq genarator (since most goauld devices do i see no reason to asume otherwise all there other craft do) this means they will never run out of power(ok in a few hundred thousand years they will run out if it was used constantly i presume but remember osires personal ship from the curse??it hade been in egypt for lik 5000 years and it had no problems see my point??)

[Orange Crush]

We don't want to confuse acceleration with "top speed." A vehicle travelling at a million miles an hour away from the Earth from the perspective of the Earth isn't that hard to do--no drag, a long line to "run up to speed" and other planets/bodies to give gravitational assists.

Acceleration is what matters in a dogfight, since that relates directly to manuevarability, which is what I believe the 302's were designed to be better at.

As for their improbable sounding engines . . . it's not that farfetched if we assume we have a high-power naquadah/naquadria reactor for energy. Real world jets & rockets work on the same principle--get something really hot so it expands and shoots out of the back really fast to push a craft forward. Jets expel air, rockets expel the gases from chemical fuels. In either case, "fuel" is working as both our propellant (the stuff to toss out the back) and our energy source (heat). With a powerful enough energy source, we can superheat air without burning anything and for our vacuum engine, we just need to bring some propellant along--anything that expands a lot when it gets hot will do, water would even be a good choice.

As for planes still flying like planes in space . . . yeah . . . I'll grant you that one . . . but rarely do we ever see realistic spaceflight in sci-fi . . . which is a shame because I think when they really do try it looks a lot cooler.

-Nick

[RA the sun god]

We don't want to confuse acceleration with "top speed." A vehicle travelling at a million miles an hour away from the Earth from the perspective of the Earth isn't that hard to do--no drag, a long line to "run up to speed" and other planets/bodies to give gravitational assists.

Acceleration is what matters in a dogfight, since that relates directly to manuevarability, which is what I believe the 302's were designed to be better at.

As for their improbable sounding engines . . . it's not that farfetched if we assume we have a high-power naquadah/naquadria reactor for energy. Real world jets & rockets work on the same principle--get something really hot so it expands and shoots out of the back really fast to push a craft forward. Jets expel air, rockets expel the gases from chemical fuels. In either case, "fuel" is working as both our propellant (the stuff to toss out the back) and our energy source (heat). With a powerful enough energy source, we can superheat air without burning anything and for our vacuum engine, we just need to bring some propellant along--anything that expands a lot when it gets hot will do, water would even be a good choice.

As for planes still flying like planes in space . . . yeah . . . I'll grant you that one . . . but rarely do we ever see realistic spaceflight in sci-fi . . . which is a shame because I think when they really do try it looks a lot cooler.

-Nick

about engines not beaing far fetched...i am not convinced look at the season 2 atlantis epp where that f-302 followed the deadi for a while and then evaded major shepards f-302 it looks a bit improbable to me

[Jarnin]

its not impossible, may just be that the f-302 has crap handling in space.

It is impossible. Planes in an atmosphere can bank and loop because of air resistance. In space there is no air resistance, so you can't possibly bank or loop.
If you want to see a realistic example of how space fighters would manuever, watch Battlestar Galactic.

Or we just remember this is fiction and TPTB can't do everything like it's real

Then again, we could remember that this is SCIENCE fiction, which means what we see in the show should at least have some scientific merit.

Well, if we go over it that way you couldn't make any specualtions about aspects which are yet to be mentioned. (in reply to Jarnin)

You can speculate all you want. All I'm saying is that as the F-302 stands, it's an impossible vehicle, even with all the fictional techno devices they've got straped to it.

As for their improbable sounding engines . . . it's not that farfetched if we assume we have a high-power naquadah/naquadria reactor for energy.

Naquadah reactors put out electricity. Aerospikes, jet engines and rocket boosters all use either solid or liquid fuel, and none of them are electric forms of propulsion.

You can't use a naquadah reactor for propulsion alone. You need fuel and an oxidizer if you're in space.

Real world jets & rockets work on the same principle--get something really hot so it expands and shoots out of the back really fast to push a craft forward. Jets expel air, rockets expel the gases from chemical fuels. In either case, "fuel" is working as both our propellant (the stuff to toss out the back) and our energy source (heat).

Jet engines combust fuel with air and spit it out the rear at high pressures. Rockets carry their own oxygen and fuel to spit out the rear.

Since we know alot of aircraft use their wings as fuel tanks, the jet fuel storage isn't an issue. So where do they store the fuel for the aerospikes and rocketbooster?

You guess is as good as mine.

With a powerful enough energy source, we can superheat air without burning anything and for our vacuum engine, we just need to bring some propellant along--anything that expands a lot when it gets hot will do, water would even be a good choice.

You still need a place to store those reactants. Like I said, the F-302 has room for jet fuel, but no room at all for additional aerospike and rocket fuels and oxidizers.

As for planes still flying like planes in space . . . yeah . . . I'll grant you that one . . . but rarely do we ever see realistic spaceflight in sci-fi . . . which is a shame because I think when they really do try it looks a lot cooler.

That's because the people making the CGI are artists, and usually have no experience in science beyond a few courses in high school.

If you want realistic space flight (minus the FTL) then watch BSG.

[RA the sun god]

qoute:
It is impossible. Planes in an atmosphere can bank and loop because of air resistance. In space there is no air resistance, so you can't possibly bank or loop.

how is this so the f-302 design is like a death glider with the curved wings we know that gliders were used as a blueprint for the f-302 and since all small goauld vessels have curved surfaces when flying(teltacs extend 2 small curved wings when flying and so do the d gliders i dont consider the alkesh small) it is reasonable to asumethat they are needed for the goauld internal propulsion drive(stated in a epp dont know what it is but allows manuvering even in space) to work(we know that key flight components of a d glider are in the wings as a hit to either causes catastrophic faliur)with eficency so i asume the wings of the 302's have the same tech this wuld explain alot