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    Issues of command within SG1, a different perspective

    I’d like to look at command/who’s in command/is Mitchell a good commander issue purely from the stand-point of the characters, ignoring any meta/political stuff about the actors/TPTB/skiffy/Sony etc.

    Ok, the way I see it, SG1 was disbanded at the beginning of S9. Sam was head of R&D at area 51, Teal’c was trying to sort out Jaffa politics and Daniel was on his way to Atlantis. General O’Neill gave Mitchell command of SG1, General Landry made it clear when Mitchell arrived at the SGC that he wasn’t joining SG1 he was leading it and as Sam, Teal’c and Daniel had gone or were going, he had to form a new team. All that is cannon on the show.

    People have questioned why Sam, Teal’c and Daniel would accept Mitchell as their new leader, I’m going to offer my perspective. Sam and Daniel are the experts in their fields at the SGC, Teal’c, at the end of S8, was the leader of the Jaffa rebellion and has been very involved with Jaffa politics. He’s probably the expert at the SGC on all things Jaffa and Gao’uld. Between the three of them they also have more Gate experience and more understanding of what’s out there than anyone else at the SGC. They work well together, respecting and acknowledging each others expertise, allowing each other to lead the way as the situation dictates. They work as a team of equals, they don’t need a Leader.

    So now Mitchell comes along, having been given the command of an SG1 which no longer exists, and asks them to reform. Why would they accept him as Leader when they are all leaders in their own right? People have questioned whether Mitchell is a good leader, saying that he doesn’t seem very commanding or good at giving orders. They seem to see this as a weakness. IMO, if Mitchell had been that way, if he was all gung-ho and commanding, Sam, Teal’c and Daniel would have never have agreed to rejoin SG1. If we use Mitchell’s own phrase of “getting the band back together”, I see him in the role of Manager. They don’t need anyone telling them what to do but having someone like Mitchell, who respects them and their expertise, can be useful to them in many ways. For a start, he can deal with all the admin and pesky paper work that comes from being in charge. In his position as leader, he can run interference for them with General Landry, arguing their case for missions etc, freeing up some of their time. He can watch their backs on missions and deal with the SGC when needed, again, freeing them to do what they’re best at (that was shown very clearly in “Prototype”). That’s what they need him for and why, IMO, they agreed to be under his Leadership and rejoin SG1.

    Now for the thorny issue of Sam. ;o) Yes, she was leader of SG1 last season, then SG1 disbanded and she went to work as head of R&D at area 51. I don’t see Sam as someone who’s ego needs her to be “in charge”. She knows she can command, she knows that she’s respected enough to be put in charge of R&D at area 51, I assume she’s the head of the “Science geeks” at the SGC. What Sam is about for me is Science and discovery, being the best solder she can be and saving the universe from what ever threat is at hand. Having Mitchell as leader of SG1, knowing that she has his respect and will follow her lead when it matters I think is good enough for Sam. She wants to do the best she can and if Mitchell, taking on the role of leader, helps her with that, then I don’t think she’ll have a problem. Does she “deserve” to be the leader? Probably, and I would imagine that if she asked for her own command she’d get it. When she goes out with other teams (again, see “Prototype”) she’s obviously the one in charge then but I think what’s more important to her is doing he job the best she can and working along side Daniel and Teal’c, people she knows well and trusts. As I said, I don’t see her as someone so ego led that she needs to be in charge of the team.

    Is Mitchell a good leader? Maybe not from a military perspective. Maybe not if you like to see your leaders as "Makepeace" types, big on being in command and giving orders. For me though, Mitchell is the perfect commander for these three unique and experienced people. He gives them space to do what they need to do, he recognises and respects their expertise and experience and he’s there to watch their backs and lead the way when the need arises. I don’t think they would have accepted any other kind of leader for SG1 after Jack left. He got the “band back together” and he “managers” then well, they in turn can get on with the business of producing the best music they can )

    As I said at the beginning, I really don’t want to get into a discussion about all the meta reasons why Mitchell is in charge or the behind the scenes politics. This is purely about the characters as I see them and the dynamics which now exist within SG1 as they appear to me. PLEASE, PLEASE PLEASE, let’s not turn this into a bashing session or rants against TPTB.

    #2
    yeah they accepted it cuz of jack's blessing

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      #3
      they accept him as leader because he has been assigned command of SG-1. its the military. if the brass says Mitchell's in charge he's in charge.
      Captain John Sheridan: [practicing his apology for blowing up a Centauri War Cruiser] I apologize. I'm sorry. I'm sorry we had to defend ourselves against an unwarranted attack. I'm sorry that your crew was stupid enough to fire on a station filled with a quarter million civilians, including your own people. And I'm sorry I waited as long as I did before I blew them all straight to hell! As with everything else it's the thought that counts.


      Beta Ray Bill: “ I have battled in the vastness of space and bled in the depths of Hell! Come for me, and you come for death!!!” Omega Flight #5 of 5

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        #4
        screw the brass!

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          #5
          my main issues with mitch being in command, of any team, is his total lack of off world experience.

          dude had never even SEEN the stargate but was given a team

          ok, sure, go back to s1 and everyone, including jack (well, back to the movie) had command and they'd never seen the gate. However that is to be expected seeing as the stargate was newly discovered. That doesn't apply now. Now they have 20+ teams (isn't 27 the last number we heard???) with each team having an average of 4 people.

          that's over 100 people wiht more gate time than mitch has. Now, to be realistic, each team probably only has 1-2 officers with 2-3 members of the team being enlisted, so that gives you a pool of roughly 50 officers with gate experience.

          That's 50 people that were better qualified for the job than cam was.

          Is cam a leader? yes, we've seen him lead his squadron, however i'm reminded of an old show called Tour of Duty, in which a green LT was given command of an experienced team in Viet Nam....the SGT ( i think that was his rank) really ran the team, the LT was just a figure head.

          Since we can't bring in the 'real' reason for cam being the boss - the aforementioned opinions, directives from scifi - i can't really think of a reason to give this green officer the leadership of a team.

          Did jack promise him anything he wanted? sure. cool and good for jack. But heck he might as well have promised him command of the whole base because he's just as qualified for that as he is leading sg1.

          JOINING the team? sure. that would be believable and acceptable. Leading it???? no. dude does not have the experience and qualifications to be leading an off-world team. Not until he has more missions under his belt anyway.

          If you take out the outside influences in cam being the leader, he has no reason to be the boss
          Where in the World is George Hammond?


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            #6
            An interesting idea, but unfortunately, for me, not one I'd be particularly happy with.

            My problem is that although you can rearrange the current season and add many, many, (many, many) layers of interpretation to the structure of the current SG-1 setup, it hasn't been explained in canon why the three old SG-1 members would want to serve under Mitchell.

            Mitchell appears to have no relevant gate experience, and Sam, Daniel, and Teal'c's reactions to his leadership are inconsistant to the characters I have seen for the last 8 years.
            They don't need a manager, they didn't have one last year, and they still managed to save the galaxy again. So why is Mitchell the team leader?
            Is the number on the badge so important that they wouldn't rather reform their old three-person team as SG-35?

            I know you didn't want a discussion about the real reasoning behind Mitchell's leadership, but to say they need a manager is to give too much leeway to bad writing. If we can fanwank our way to a reasonable explaination, why do the writers need to spend time writing it?

            Personally, my interpretation is; after Moebius, this isn't the same team I've been watching for 8 years.

            Comment


              #7
              That makes complete and logical sense to me yabyumpan - now if only TPBT could actually show this...

              edit: however, having said that, it's still a bit of a weak explanation as to why he's there... I don't want to watch the Coach (Manager) of a football team - I want to watch that teams star players. And if Mitchell is not one of the star players, well no amount of brilliant managing will make him exciting to watch...
              Last edited by Agent_Dark; 25 December 2005, 05:53 PM.

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                #8
                Sorry, but I'm with Smurf. I think it is terrifically out of character for Teal'c, Daniel, and Carter to accept Mitchell as their leader. And I've seen Mitchell's leadership "style" argued as that of a manager before, but still don't give it any credence. Aside from the fact that I can't believe that the original members of SG-1 need, want, or would ever accept a "manager", I have yet to see Mitchell actually managing anything or anyone. Carter, Teal'c, and Daniel are absolutely the very best. If there is one thing that the writers have managed to be consistent with, it's that. SG-1 is a made up of people who consistently succeed under extraordinary conditions and unfathomable stress. To introduce the idea that now, after defeating the Goa'uld, Replicators, and every other threat to Earth for the past eight years, that they need someone to manage their ability to focus and work together is to dumb down the characters to an extent that I will not accept. And the fact that the writers expect us to fanwank the scenario to such an outrageous extent is an insult to viewers.

                You see, Season 8 is the one that really invalidates Mitchell. When Jack got promoted the USAF could have added another member to the team. If it had been necessary to focus Carter and Teal'c and Daniel into one cohesive unit, if they couldn't function effectively without that catalyst, then someone like Mitchell would have been assigned last year. But instead we got the three-man team, which worked well when we saw it. There was never any indication that a problem existed or that the team members were missing a guiding figure. Why is this position, the team "manager", necessary now? What has changed with Teal'c, Carter, and Daniel that now suddenly they are scatter-brained and need Mitchell to keep them on track? Has Landry brought such an intense level of red tape and such a hard line attitude that an additional buffer between the team and SGC command is necessary? And, even if he has, are Carter, Daniel, and Teal'c now suddenly incapable of standing up for themselves and what they think needs to be done? Will Mitchell argue as passionately as Daniel for the rights of other cultures and species? Will he explain Carter's latest gizmo, gadget, or theory better or more completely than she can? I don't like the idea of an intermediary filling in these roles for them. Those jobs are what make each of the characters who they are. And I don't like the idea of Mitchell stealing a little bit from who each character is simply for the sake of having something to do or something to say.

                So, that's my take on the "manager" idea, irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, but pretty to look at. Well, I think it's pretty.

                Comment


                  #9
                  i think if they wanted mitch to be the undeniable leader he needed to be a full colonel.

                  i don't believe the real military would allow two equal ranked officers to be on a team. Two LT's under a Colonel? maybe. but not two colonels on the same team.

                  makes things too murky as to who's really the boss

                  However, making cam a colonel has a few issues, namely that the actor isn't old enough to be a full colonel.

                  IMHO, what worked before and could have worked now would have been to have cam be a major and be under sam and let him learn from the best. Because he needs to learn. Despite all his time with the super ninja jaffa, he's no leader

                  Let him learn and grow for at least a season, then Sam could take time off which would make cam the boss while she's not there but under her when she is
                  Where in the World is George Hammond?


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                    #10
                    Just a quick response as I'm off to work soon.

                    Kirath said they accept him as leader because he has been assigned command of SG-1. its the military. if the brass says Mitchell's in charge he's in charge. but they didn't have to accept him as their leader. They chose to rejoin SG1 with Mitchell as their leader, nobody ordered them to.

                    I'll respond more fully to smurf, skydiver and golfbooy when I get home and I've got more time. I just want to ask though, for people who think Mitchell isn't a good leader, what could he have done differently in the 4 episodes when we've actually seen him as leader of SG1 with Sam, Teal'c and Daniel on board (from EDM onwards) that would have made him seem a better leader? I'm curious as to what people see as the proper or better leadership skills, esp regarding the team he's leading.
                    Last edited by yabyumpan; 26 December 2005, 03:13 AM.

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                      #11
                      what could he do to be a better leader in my eyes?

                      now, i will grant that he hasn't has much of a chance. there's been too much of an emphasis on the daniel and vala comedy hour, much to the detriment of Sam, Teal'c and cameron.....all of whom are relegated to neglected back up singers when the focus is on vala and daniel

                      BUT

                      there have been cases where cam has been the boss

                      such as the beginning of the babylon...there he is, off world, 'leading' his team.....snapping his gum and flapping his jaws while they're in enemy territory. that's more the behaviors of a green rookie than it is a leader, whose first concerns should be the well being of his team now how many jokes he can crack in a limited amount of time.

                      Cameron is not acting like a leader, he's acting like a kid on a field trip.

                      I've been in too many situations where my 'boss' is my boss not because he's qualified, but because he's got the right friends. sometimes they're ok, because they are aware of just how unqualified they are for the jobs and accept that they know nothing....but then there are those that believe that thier title makes them an expert in everything, even when they're so unqualified that they can't even turn on their own computer much less tell me how to run the software that we use

                      cam's saving grace in the command department is that he's not strutting in shouting 'i'm the boss'. that makes him tolerable and not like some cliched character like general bauer.

                      however, his rather immature attitude does knock him down from being a leader in my eyes. he's not a leader, he's just there.

                      the only times i've seen something leaderlike from him is when he's running around playing landry's errand boy.
                      Where in the World is George Hammond?


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                        #12
                        Well for a start I would have given him some gate experience, and a personality a lot further away than that of a over-active child. Before anyone says it a) Jack was very respected and experienced, and (mostly) knew when to turn it on and off at the appropriate moment, b) Jonas also knew when to turn it off at the appropriate moment, but importantly was not the team leader. Mitchell, from what I've seen, doesn't (and I acknowledge I haven't seen all 10 eps) which makes him quite dangerous to have around when walking into situations where one wrong word may get your team killed.

                        More importantly I would have the previous team act in character with their response to not having Sam in charge.
                        Sam could be ordered to join SG-1 (the SG program respects her too much so it's very unlikely), Teal'c and Daniel could not. I can't honestly see after this many years of watching these two characters that it wouldn't bother them in the slightest that Sam was not in charge.
                        Frankly I would have had this scene in Ex Deus Machina:

                        Sam's office. Sam is unpacking, Daniel and Teal'c walk in.
                        "So you're back?" says Daniel
                        Sam stops, "yep."
                        "Team back or SGC back?"
                        Sam smiles, "which one are you?"
                        Daniel glances at Teal'c, "we're waiting on other decisions."
                        "Ah, then team back. I'm thinking SG-1 sounds good."
                        "What's going to happen to Mitchell?"
                        "He's going to be there as well."
                        "Doesn't it bother him losing the team commander position?"
                        "He's not going to."
                        Teal'c raises eyebrow. Daniel frowns, "look, Sam, if they're forcing you back... we'll support you if you want to make an issue of this. We'll follow you to SG... 104."
                        "They aren't forcing me. It's my choice."
                        "But you had command. This a step back."
                        "Daniel, yes I've taken a step back, but it's to look at my life. I'm still overseeing the science department as well as being on the team, and I'm not superwoman. I'm happy with how the situation will be on the team. Cam's a good man." Sam grins, "and I only need to be around to keep you boys in order."

                        Mitchell wouldn't necessarily be better, but the old team have accepted him logically. I'm happy if they're happy because I trust them. But I'm not because it hasn't been explained.
                        Remember the above wasn't addressed on the show. Anyone can argue it might have happened, but it didn't. So this lives in the world of fanwanking fanfiction.

                        Shame though, it wouldn't have been expensive to film, and lasts for, what, a minute...

                        Comment


                          #13
                          If chief of homeworld security (Jack probably) wants it that's the way it goes...

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by yabyumpan
                            I'll respond more fully to smurf, skydiver and golfbooy when I get home and I've got more time. I just want to ask though, for people who think Mitchell isn't a good leader, what could he have done differently in the 4 episodes when we've actually seen him as leader of SG1 with Sam, Teal'c and Daniel on board (from EDM onwards) that would have made him seem a better leader? I'm curious as to what people see as the proper or better leadership skills, esp regarding the team he's leading.
                            Hey yaby. For me, it's not really so much about whether he's a good leader or not. I'm sure he can be, and I'm fairly sure that TPTB have every intention of portraying him as such. My problem comes from the logical disconnect that exists with the idea of him being necessary to lead SG-1. I certainly buy that he could be the fourth member of the team, and I think that that would have been a far more effective role for Mitchell to play on the team, but that's not the way it's been written. The whole idea of your manager scenario illustrates the problem--I think people are looking really, really hard to find different ways to justify Mitchell's presence on SG-1. I think most people realize that he's unnecessary as team leader, but are trying to come up with a way that they can live with the situation. So it's not that I think he's a "bad leader" per say, it's that I don't think they need him on the team, period.

                            For me, the leadership debate is kind of ancillary to his placement on the team. Fine, he's on the team. But now he's leader as well? When there wasn't one before, when there wasn't one needed before? And he doesn't bring anything along with his addition? Even Vala, when she joins the show next year, will seemingly come with some kind of unique experience or knowledge to add to the mix. Cam brings nothing, and that's a waste of the actor, a waste of screentime, and it's a diminishment of the skills and importance of the other three team members to suddenly equate the characters (or as is the case, subordinate the characters to Mitchell).

                            As far as what could have been done differently from Ex Deus Machina onward, there honestly isn't much that I can see. Anyone, regardless of who, was going to play second fiddle to Teal'c in dealing with the Jaffa. Unfortuately, it was Mitchell. Perhaps he's the victim of circumstance here, but it's also circumstance that has him leading to begin with. In Babylon he's separated from the team for the entire episode, leaving him no opportunity to interact or lead SG-1, a trend that is continued more or less throughout Prototype and The Fourth Horseman I. There is no compelling reason for Cam's separation except that it skirts the whole idea of his being "in charge" of SG-1 and allows him to play along with the team without actually being commander of everyone. Now, there are purportedly more "team" episodes in the second half, so we'll see.

                            I'm not trying to come off as truculent on the issue. I'm rather sick of it, myself. But I feel the problem still exists, and always will until TPTB deal with it.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              The real question is not why sam daniel and teal'c would want to be under mitchell's command but why they would want to be on SG1 at all.
                              if you ask me this decision is totally out of character for all three of them

                              as for mitchell's competence as a leader.. haven't seen him do anything but suck up to landry. maybe he should trade places with walter.
                              I wouldn't put mitchell in charge of any SG team. The only thing he has to show for is rank, and SG teams are not soldiers going for battle (especially now with the gaould gone).

                              Originally posted by golfbooy
                              For me, the leadership debate is kind of ancillary to his placement on the team. Fine, he's on the team. But now he's leader as well? When there wasn't one before, when there wasn't one needed before? And he doesn't bring anything along with his addition? Even Vala, when she joins the show next year, will seemingly come with some kind of unique experience or knowledge to add to the mix. Cam brings nothing, and that's a waste of the actor, a waste of screentime, and it's a diminishment of the skills and importance of the other three team members to suddenly equate the characters (or as is the case, subordinate the characters to Mitchell).
                              agreed.

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