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EYU86
July 16th, 2004, 08:23 PM
You know whats sad, as advanced as the Ancients were, Atlantis is low on power, and theres nothing to do about it yet, because the city depends on ZPM's. You figure a city that size, the Ancients would have built it with its own power generator, or can make it depend on solar power.

Erik Pasternak
July 16th, 2004, 08:25 PM
The ZPMs are probably the most advanced power system the Ancients invented. It makes sense theat they would use them to power Atlantis.

David85
July 16th, 2004, 08:27 PM
They should have backups, but whatever, the whole thing is flawed, but still nice.

professor_griff
July 16th, 2004, 08:29 PM
The show is still early though maybe there is some solar panels on that thing!

Why did it surface on it's own if it was to stay hidden and was already taking on water why not just take on water completely?

EYU86
July 16th, 2004, 08:30 PM
But the ZPM's are pretty much out of power...
So, the Ancients never thought of a backup power, or at least a way to recharge the ZPM's. It could have a way to replicate the ZPM's like the way the Asgard can replicate stuff. The city is suppose to be self-supporting since its built for travel.

electronlove
July 16th, 2004, 08:30 PM
I agree. FOr an amzing city, zero-point modules are most definitely the way to go. Zero-point energy is essentially cheap and free and almost indefinite in supply. They could last for millions of years! WHy would they need back-ups. WOOPS....

professor_griff
July 16th, 2004, 08:35 PM
The city is suppose to be self-supporting since its built for travel.

hence a possible advanced type of solar recharging (possibility) it would be a perfect source of energy considering any world inhabited by humans needs a sun.

The power only became low enough when they arrived who knows it could have resurfaced many times before to recharge, but that would be to easy I guess.

EYU86
July 16th, 2004, 08:36 PM
You might be right. It did resurface automatically, maybe to recharge. It may have done that dozens of times before it was rediscovered.

Erik Pasternak
July 16th, 2004, 08:41 PM
Wait a second, in the second Alternate Universe episode (which I believe was called "Window of Opportunity," didn't the Carters figure out how to recharge the ZPM that Colonel/General O'Neill built in "The Fifth Race." So why can't the Atlantis team recharge the ZPMs in Atlantis and the SCG recharge the ZPM from Paklarooshtayonas (sp?)? If they did that, gating between the galaxies would be no problem.

professor_griff
July 16th, 2004, 08:41 PM
It seems viable to use solar regeneration but then again the ancients flew to the Pegasus Galaxy on full power so what keeps the Atlantis team from flying back home (besides total lack ancient knowledge)

EYU86
July 16th, 2004, 08:45 PM
Umm... Rocket, what are you babbling about.
The "ZPM" O'neill built in The Fifth Race was just a temporary power source, meant for one use only and I think it depended on the liquid naquadah from a staff weapon or something.

Oh, and Window of Opportunity was about a time loop and was one of my all time fav. episodes.

Persephone
July 16th, 2004, 08:46 PM
I'm sure we'll learn much more as we go along. The only thing in the whole episode that felt really forced to me was McKay's sudden announcement about the power outage. What was up with the timing? He just comes out of nowhere with it.

"La de da, what a pretty hologram, oh! Wait! Power!" Hehehe.

EYU86
July 16th, 2004, 08:48 PM
Well, he was told in the middle of the conversation by the same guy who wasted more power by turning on the energy iris. See my sig.

professor_griff
July 16th, 2004, 08:51 PM
if they have "English" speaking hologram universal translators then they have to have some sort of power regeneration setup..guess we'll have to wait and see.

Giantevilhead
July 16th, 2004, 08:52 PM
I doubt that the power a city the size of Atlantis can get from the sun would even come close to what it can get from a ZPM or even a less sophisticated power generator that relies on fusion.

EYU86
July 16th, 2004, 08:53 PM
But the Ancients are advanced and so is the city so... yea

professor_griff
July 16th, 2004, 08:56 PM
I doubt that the power a city the size of Atlantis can get from the sun would even come close to what it can get from a ZPM or even a less sophisticated power generator that relies on fusion.

yeah but there acients they built ZPM's so they may have also built ways to recharge them, some sort of advanced solar power (hey it could happen it's scifi)

EYU86
July 16th, 2004, 08:58 PM
My point exactly, thanks proff. griff

Persephone
July 16th, 2004, 08:58 PM
Well, he was told in the middle of the conversation by the same guy who wasted more power by turning on the energy iris. See my sig.

Ah, thanks. It'll be awhile before I get to watch it again for details.

Major N. Shah
July 16th, 2004, 09:17 PM
even if there is a way to recharge the Z.P.M or find an alternate source of power, the Stargate Atlantis Teams are definitely way out of their league, beyond interfacing with the technology, how are they really goign to understand it. Come on these are the ancients, who are wel at least it seems from New order more advanced than the asgard, and if the asgard can't fathom the ancient knowledge, we know that team is definitely gonan have its hands full.

Ace
July 16th, 2004, 09:23 PM
First off, let me say that I loved the episodes!! :D I thought it was a great introduction to all the characters and I can't wait for more episodes to come.

However since this thread is about flaws, I thought I would add one. Technically speaking everybody who was on Atlantis when it "rose" to the surface should all be dead.

I believe it was Colonel Summner that stated that it appeared that Atlantis was under several hundred feet of water. The amount of pressure between the surface and several hundred feet of water is a good couple of atmospheres.

They all should have been suffereing from the "bends", AKA decompression sickness, at from that depth probably would have died from it.

Other than that though, I thought it was a truely extraordinary episode. :D

Ace

diek
July 16th, 2004, 09:26 PM
I imagine a facility for synthisizing ZPM's is in the city, but the city is freaking huge and it will probably take all of season one to explore just a portion of it. It's like taking a hundred people and trying to explore dowtown Manhatten and all of it's buildings...that would take a very LONG time. Just give it some time.

EYU86
July 16th, 2004, 09:26 PM
Do you not forget, the Ancients built Atlantis, the ANCIENTS.
I think maybe, just maybe Atlantis might be able to account for the pressure difference and be able to stablize it to the same as the surface pressure.
lol

Ace
July 16th, 2004, 09:29 PM
Do you not forget, the Ancients built Atlantis, the ANCIENTS.
I think maybe, just maybe Atlantis might be able to account for the pressure difference and be able to stablize it to the same as the surface pressure.

I thought of making that an excuse, but it was just too easy! The shield had collapsed, all the power had shut down. There was nothing protecting them from the pressure. A plot hole, a very minor one which I will put into the back of my mind and enjoy the rest of the show. ;)

Ace

EYU86
July 16th, 2004, 09:31 PM
Power was not shut down, and shield did not collapse around the central area until after it probably surfaced. If the sheild collapsed while it was still underwater, the city would have been destroyed, well, no, everyone would have died.

professor_griff
July 16th, 2004, 09:32 PM
Well "if" they find out that the episode bombed they can make episode three they all die from the bends...

Ace
July 16th, 2004, 09:37 PM
Power was not shut down, and shield did not collapse around the central area until after it probably surfaced. If the sheild collapsed while it was still underwater, the city would have been destroyed, well, no, everyone would have died.

Nope ;) Watch again...

It says on McKay's computer "Shield Failure Immenient" and then all the power goes off. Everything, like a blackout! The only thing that was protecting them was the building they were in. Which I'm guessing wasn't crushed because it was built by the Ancients. ;) See I can play along...

Ace

Ace
July 16th, 2004, 09:39 PM
Well "if" they find out that the episode bombed they can make episode three they all die from the bends...

LOL With all the advertising that Scifi put into promoting it, let's hope it didn't bomb! Besides there is no way it could have, it was a great episode! Reaching into my top 10 list for sure...

Ace

EYU86
July 16th, 2004, 09:46 PM
Nope ;) Watch again...

It says on McKay's computer "Shield Failure Immenient" and then all the power goes off. Everything, like a blackout! The only thing that was protecting them was the building they were in. Which I'm guessing wasn't crushed because it was built by the Ancients. ;) See I can play along...

Ace
Hey, whatever, Atlantis rose by itself, so I figure theres many safety protocols in the computers. Also, shield failure iminent doesnt mean shield is actually down. And power going off within the building doesnt mean power was down, because power had to be used to get Atlantis to surface with the thrusters.

professor_griff
July 16th, 2004, 09:52 PM
LOL With all the advertising that Scifi put into promoting it, let's hope it didn't bomb! Besides there is no way it could have, it was a great episode! Reaching into my top 10 list for sure...

yeah it was a good episode but it will take awhile for some of the characters to grow on you, The team seems to young almost.. new spin off episodes are luck of the draw really..

Mio
July 17th, 2004, 04:22 AM
Three ZPMs powered a powerful shield around a WHOLE CITY for 5-10million years.

5 to 10 million years.

It's not like they died out after 50 years.... 5-10 million!

ES2018
July 17th, 2004, 04:41 AM
Perhaps the arrival of the Atlantis team and the automatic turn on of the power systems indicated to the city it was time to resurface. They just didn't know what was happening.

IWantToBelieve
July 17th, 2004, 04:41 AM
They didn't get decompression sickness because the Ancient city was pressurized. It's like riding in an airplane, same principle. You don't get altitude sickness (or die) when you fly into the upper atmosphere.

Mio
July 17th, 2004, 05:03 AM
Hey, whatever, Atlantis rose by itself, so I figure theres many safety protocols in the computers. Also, shield failure iminent doesnt mean shield is actually down. And power going off within the building doesnt mean power was down, because power had to be used to get Atlantis to surface with the thrusters.
That could have been a completely different power system....one incompatible with the shields.

IWantToBelieve
July 17th, 2004, 06:41 AM
I see what you all are saying. This was my take on what happened. When shield failure was iminent the cities fail safes kicked in, and diverted power to the engines (hence the lights going down), and the city was rocketed to the surface. Interior pressure wasn't affected because the shield didn't lose integrity in their main section until after they had surfaced.

I think it's like someone else pointed out, if they had actually lost shields , the city would've been destroyed immediately.

DownFallAngel
July 17th, 2004, 06:44 AM
But the ZPM's are pretty much out of power...
So, the Ancients never thought of a backup power, or at least a way to recharge the ZPM's. It could have a way to replicate the ZPM's like the way the Asgard can replicate stuff. The city is suppose to be self-supporting since its built for travel.

The ancients never took into account that they would have to sink their own city. Plus, what other powersource do you know that could sustain an entire city, after stellar travel for thousands of years, hold up a shield, that has an entire ocean holding it!? TELL ME!! lol

aAnubiSs
July 17th, 2004, 06:55 AM
Lemon juice!

DownFallAngel
July 17th, 2004, 06:57 AM
Luke Has No Part In This Conversation!

GhostPoet
July 17th, 2004, 08:25 AM
Uhh..dude...I don't think the Ancients ever PLANNED on dying out. Thus they would have created more power supplies when maintenance was required.

Your logic is flawed.

Mio
July 17th, 2004, 08:27 AM
The ancients never took into account that they would have to sink their own city. Plus, what other powersource do you know that could sustain an entire city, after stellar travel for thousands of years, hold up a shield, that has an entire ocean holding it!? TELL ME!! lol
Millions, in all probability.

gavinjcd
July 17th, 2004, 04:51 PM
OK, we know that Atlantis left Earth several million years ago. We know from the Antartic base that the ZPM's are finite, and that the stargate/DHD discovered in Antartica is one of the oldest in the network.

Atlantis could have been sitting under that Ocean for MILLIONS of years holding that forcfield up before the Earth team walked in. It really isn't that complicated. Power is finite.

GavinJCD
http://www.jemirojim.org

DownFallAngel
July 17th, 2004, 05:16 PM
So that would mean that atlantis at one point consisted of 4, not 3 ZPMs. 3 in Atlantis, and one in the core aka the outpost?

EYU86
July 17th, 2004, 05:27 PM
OK, we know that Atlantis left Earth several million years ago. We know from the Antartic base that the ZPM's are finite, and that the stargate/DHD discovered in Antartica is one of the oldest in the network.

Atlantis could have been sitting under that Ocean for MILLIONS of years holding that forcfield up before the Earth team walked in. It really isn't that complicated. Power is finite.

GavinJCD
http://www.jemirojim.org
No one said the ZPM's had infinite power, we just said its pretty weird that as advanced that the Ancients were they had no backup power sources to the ZPM's on Atlantis, like relying on solar energy or a power plant built in the city.

DownFallAngel
July 17th, 2004, 05:29 PM
They also did not expect to take such drastic measures to do what they had to do to get were the SGA team is now. Also, it would have taken alot of power to power up the gate to get everyone back to Earth, maybe that is were alot of the power drain came from also?

EYU86
July 17th, 2004, 05:42 PM
Thats probably right, to gate that far, both gates must need alot of power.

One more thing thats been an itch on my back, did Earth just give up its most powerful defensive system just for a one way trip to Atlantis? Now that the ZPM on Earth is pretty much drained, they won't be able to use the Ancient outpost, well for defensive purposes at least.

DownFallAngel
July 17th, 2004, 05:44 PM
Thats what General (almost wrote Col. lol) O'Niell stated. He disliked the fact that Earth would be totally defenseless, now that the ZPM is drained, or...almost drained.

Hyperspace
July 17th, 2004, 05:44 PM
^^^

That is a key question which I hope SG-1 will address. I'm thinking it was drained too much for intergalactic wormhole use, but it can still be used for Ancient weapons stations?

uknesvuinng
July 17th, 2004, 08:54 PM
No one said the ZPM's had infinite power, we just said its pretty weird that as advanced that the Ancients were they had no backup power sources to the ZPM's on Atlantis, like relying on solar energy or a power plant built in the city.
They don't exactly need "backup" sources. They could produce ZPMs with probably as much ease as we can make AA batteries. You don't go looking for some other source of power when the batteries go dead in your remote; you buy more batteries. They had batteries that provided a ridiculous amount of power for millions of years, and they could produce more. There wasn't any reason to make a backup source.

Personally, I'd find it humorous, when the episode they truly go home comes, if they were exploring the city and found a small building with a sign that said "Spare ZPMs".

EYU86
July 17th, 2004, 08:59 PM
That would be funny.
There has to be some manufacturing building within Atlantis that produces ZPM's. Well there doesnt have to be. Guess we just gotta wait and see.

uknesvuinng
July 17th, 2004, 09:07 PM
That would be funny.
There has to be some manufacturing building within Atlantis that produces ZPM's. Well there doesnt have to be. Guess we just gotta wait and see.
Well, they had to build 'em somewhere. The question is, can we use whatever devices they used to manufacture ZPMs? Or will Sheppard use the technology to create an endless supply of turkey sandwiches?

EYU86
July 17th, 2004, 09:10 PM
I vote turkey sandwiches

ylai
July 17th, 2004, 09:38 PM
No one said the ZPM's had infinite power, we just said its pretty weird that as advanced that the Ancients were they had no backup power sources to the ZPM's on Atlantis, like relying on solar energy or a power plant built in the city.

I remember someone in the pilot episode mentioning that ZPMs can be depleted by reaching the maximum entropy. Since entropy is bounded by either the volume or the boundary surface (this depends whether the propsed "holographic principle" is true), this is the abolute thermodynamical limit. Someone from the production team clearly seems to have consulted a physicist...

dolmata
July 17th, 2004, 10:07 PM
I wonder if the Puddlejumpers run on ZPMs. The ancients use them in their outposts and Atlantis, so why not the Puddlejumpers? It makes sense that if you knew that the ZPMs work well wouldn't you want them in all of the big devices? Plus the Puddlejumpers use drones(squids) as their weapons. The outpost did the same. The power requirement would be tremendous.

ylai
July 17th, 2004, 10:14 PM
I wonder if the Puddlejumpers run on ZPMs. The ancients use them in their outposts and Atlantis, so why not the Puddlejumpers? It makes sense that if you knew that the ZPMs work well wouldn't you want them in all of the big devices? Plus the Puddlejumpers use drones(squids) as their weapons. The outpost did the same. The power requirement would be tremendous.

Wouldn't that create more logical flaws?

1. They could just take the ZPM of a Puddlejumper and power the City with it.
2. If the shield of the city is already inpenetrable (for the Wraiths) with 3 ZPM. One ZPM would be overkill for a Puddlejumper.
3. ZPM seems not to be easy to manufacture, if the City only have 3 and an outpost 1. One ZPM in a Puddlejumper looks like if ZPM are so easy to put together as ... well, an aircraft engine.

dolmata
July 17th, 2004, 10:27 PM
That is just it. The Ancients are over confident with their technology. A Puddlejumper just seem logical to have a ZPM.

Why wouldn't it be easy to recreate a ZPM? It would seem the facility is probably equipt somewhere to create more ZPMs, but I bet it most likely takes more than one ZPM to create another one. They may not ever be able to create more.

Also the city only needed one ZPM to run on minimum. It was also almost dead and the shield still worked(short amount of time). Having three was probably a fail safe or just the minimum needed to run at full power.

ylai
July 17th, 2004, 10:38 PM
That is just it. The Ancients are over confident with their technology. A Puddlejumper just seem logical to have a ZPM.

Why wouldn't it be easy to recreate a ZPM? It would seem the facility is probably equipt somewhere to create more ZPMs, but I bet it most likely takes more than one ZPM to create another one. They may not ever be able to create more.

You are right if it would seem ... well, close to our scientific expectation that you have to put massive energy to create a ZPM. The vacuum energy is expected to be just there. It should just be a matter of putting together a sufficiently cleverly constructed device.

On the other hand. It is questionable whether the vacuum energy is indeed infinite. It does appear in calculations, but possibly it is just an artifact of the renormalized quantum field theory. If energy is mass (as like E = mc²), the vacuum energy is clearly not infinite, but rather little (it would be far less dense than just air, or we would feel it by its mass). So I think it is better not to start thinking about all these stuff... :-)

dolmata
July 18th, 2004, 08:25 AM
Maybe it is better not to get into it. :) They will probably never address it in the show anyway.

VirtualCLD
July 18th, 2004, 08:39 AM
Why must the puddlejumpers use ZPMs? They have know forcefields. It's never been said how much power the drones use. We might be able to power them w/ our own technology. However, Atlantis requires much more, as did the intergalactic gate travel.

Mio
July 18th, 2004, 08:45 AM
Wouldn't that create more logical flaws?

1. They could just take the ZPM of a Puddlejumper and power the City with it.
2. If the shield of the city is already inpenetrable (for the Wraiths) with 3 ZPM. One ZPM would be overkill for a Puddlejumper.
3. ZPM seems not to be easy to manufacture, if the City only have 3 and an outpost 1. One ZPM in a Puddlejumper looks like if ZPM are so easy to put together as ... well, an aircraft engine.They could be powered by ZP technology. But maybe not by a ZPM.

For an analogy, Atlantis is powered by 3 D cells. But each Puddle jumper could have a tiny watch battery in it.

EYU86
July 18th, 2004, 08:48 AM
Yea, I don't see Puddle-Jumpers using ZPM's because the drones were already pre-loaded into the ship to use as weapons.
As for the Ancient outpost, it may need the ZPM because the outpost could be producing drones while sending them to attack.
It would be pretty funny if the outpost could suddenly run out of drones considering how many were used to take out Anubis and his fleet.

IWantToBelieve
July 18th, 2004, 10:10 AM
Rest mass energy is E=mc^2, which is an amazing source of energy but something that we are unable to duplicate. If this vacuum energy is essentially rest mass energy (which I suspect it is), then the power would appear to be infinite...however, it would have limits. I can see that millions of years, holding water at bay, would be enough to drain them to critical levels. I can also see where they would not have extras lying around. The Ancients were powerful, but they weren't omniscient.

We had to calculate how many gallons of water would be needed to power a car for it's lifetime using the theory of rest mass energy. It wasn't much water at all, I think 3.6 cubic meters.

EYU86
July 18th, 2004, 10:12 AM
Quiet you. :)

IWantToBelieve
July 18th, 2004, 10:13 AM
I'm a physics major, what can I say? :)

aAnubiSs
July 18th, 2004, 10:14 AM
Guess you're talking about ZPE.

It doesn't have to be vacuum, it's just that it gives the best results. It's the difference in energy levels that gives us power. I wrote a post explaining ZPE with terms everyone could understand somewhere on GW. I'll see if I can find it.

EYU86
July 18th, 2004, 10:14 AM
You can say nothing
NOTHING
:)

IWantToBelieve
July 18th, 2004, 10:16 AM
Hehehe, well I've got to go, Anubis, that'd be a cool article to read.

Now, I'm off to clean my bedroom, a decidely uncool thing to do. :rolleyes:

EYU86
July 18th, 2004, 10:19 AM
Hehehe, well I've got to go, Anubis, that'd be a cool article to read.

Now, I'm off to clean my bedroom, a decidely uncool thing to do. :rolleyes:
hahaha, loser

hmm...

maybe I should clean my room :)

aAnubiSs
July 18th, 2004, 10:25 AM
Cough... here we go. Taken from 2 other topics somewhere on this forum:

Zero Point Energy:
Imagine two tanks with water, one with 1 meter water in it, and one with 100 meter in it. If you would connect these 2 tanks, the water would run over into the tank which had 1 meter in it. But eventually it would be 50-50, so no water would flow. Now change the tanks with our dimension and space/time. The energy in vaccum vs the energy in space/time. Eventually the levels would even out.

But seeing that if they're using the ZPM the energy level should decrease, so space/time would fill it up again. Maybe if it's not used for a while the connection between our space and space/time would close. IE the ZPM malfunctions.

You need an inital powersource to start it up and manage the fields keeping the energy in, but when it's online it can power that itself, so then another powersource isn't required.

EYU86
July 18th, 2004, 10:26 AM
...

Selmak
July 18th, 2004, 10:46 AM
I think a multimillion year lifespan is a good battery life even for the Ancients... taking into account the massive power needed for the shield to hold back Wraith attacks and the Ocean later on.

EYU86
July 18th, 2004, 10:49 AM
I think a multimillion year lifespan is a good battery life even for the Ancients... taking into account the massive power needed foe the shield to hold back Qraith attacks and the Ocean later on.
But like people say, never hurts to have spare batteries.
Who says that?
But, it never hurts to have spares around.

Blue_Revan
July 18th, 2004, 10:51 AM
the sheilds only have to be powerful enough to withstand water pressure. when underattack they just sink the city and they are safe. I dont think lasers are very effective underwater.

Mio
July 18th, 2004, 10:53 AM
But like people say, never hurts to have spare batteries.
Who says that?
But, it never hurts to have spares around.
Maybe the ZPMs need to be in continual use or they break on their own....in that case, they couldn't have spares.

ToastBusters
July 18th, 2004, 02:43 PM
Hey guys! I'm glad to see that old "delphiforums" was dumped. I hated that.

Anyway, my take on this whole ZPM thing. They DID have a backup. Think about it. Just one was powering a massive shield like that, AND the gate, AND the lights/their equivelant of computers. If just one can do all that, when it's mostly depleted, then two fresh ZPM's can certainly power the whole city. So one of the three goes out, their computer mentions something but in general there is very little rush to replace it.

Ah, just throw one in the next ship that comes to visit the city. We'll be fine with two. The third, while contributing, is mainly just a backup. Who knows where they store/manufacture them, but where ever that is they just gotta sneak in and grab a few. Just hope they do before the Wraith find out that the city is vulnerable. They probably won't, makes for a more exciting show :)

Praxus
September 2nd, 2004, 10:59 AM
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