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plot mechanic
November 11th, 2005, 08:19 AM
I'm not that fond of fantasy generally. So I haven't been following Potter discussions much. Perhaps some help on current thinking amongst fans?

Have people thought that Harry in Half Blood Prince is not really very nice? I don't mean teen ager sulks unpleasant, I mean bad. As in sneaking out to spy on people, actually trying to kill them and planning to kill people.Methinks that this is not so positive a development.

Have people noticed that the big dramatic resolution in the book is Draco's choice not to kill Dumbledore?

Have people thought that Dumbledore

Have people thought that Dumbledore is right about Snape, since he knows that Snape loved Lily Potter? Meaning that the big choice for Harry is [spoiler]to forego murdering Snape, like Draco did.

Have people thought that the sorting hat messages presage a need for Harry to reconcile with Draco?

Have people thought that perhaps the scar is a Horcrux
pm

MartoufMarty
November 11th, 2005, 08:23 AM
Harry Potter pissed me off in the last book.

He always pisses me off.

He's acting like a spoiled brat.

"Oh, Snape! I only almost killed Draco, you can't give me detention! I have Quidditch on Saturday!"

There's a little thing in life called consequences, you little brat. Stop complaining! He's probably lucky he didn't get arrested or anything!

They're supposed to be growing up. You'd think that after all that Harry has been through, he would learn that crap.

Just like in the third one when he fell off his broom after getting attacked by Dementors. The first thing he was concerned about was his stupid broom!

What the hell?? :mad:

The Signal
November 11th, 2005, 08:34 AM
Its Dumbledores prediction confirmed really. He kept him out of the wizarding world because he didnt want the fame to get to him. And it has done after just 6 years. Then again, the fact that everyone who ever cared for him have died, with the exception of Ron and Hermione, cant have helped much. The next book will probably see Harry reaching his darkest point and the climax will be far from the innocent beginings back at Number Four at the begining of The Philosophers Stone

LtColCarter
November 12th, 2005, 08:29 AM
I'm not that fond of fantasy generally. So I haven't been following Potter discussions much. Perhaps some help on current thinking amongst fans?

Have people thought that Harry in Half Blood Prince is not really very nice? I don't mean teen ager sulks unpleasant, I mean bad. As in sneaking out to spy on people, actually trying to kill them and planning to kill people. Methinks that this is not so positive a development.

Have people noticed that the big dramatic resolution in the book is Draco's choice not to kill Dumbledore?

Have people thought that Dumbledore has some plan for rising from the dead, a la the phoenix? The point was pretty clear I think since he was offering it to Draco.

Have people thought that Dumbledore is right about Snape, since he knows that Snape loved Lily Potter? Meaning that the big choice for Harry is to forego murdering Snape, like Draco did.

Have people thought that the sorting hat messages presage a need for Harry to reconcile with Draco?

pm

Hey! Go in and edit your stuff...this should be listed a spoiler...not out for everyone to see. If you don't know how to do a spoiler...ask. This thread...well..the opening remarks in general ruin half blood prince for people who've not read it.

aaobuttons
November 12th, 2005, 08:34 AM
You'd probably go dark too if your life was as screwed up as Harry's is.

The Signal
November 12th, 2005, 08:34 AM
Good point there LtColCarter, never really thought it needs a spoiler tag because I have read it, but there are a load of people who havent read it, want to, and may stumble onto this thread, ruining the whole ending.
Plot machanic spoilers (in case you dont know) are done like this

[ spoiler ] Your message [ /spoiler ] without the spaces

LtColCarter
December 7th, 2005, 12:28 PM
I can understand why Harry is acting the way he is in HBP. I mean after all...he's lost almost everything...

Ascended Times.2
December 8th, 2005, 03:38 AM
Were I harry, I probably woulda memorised the three most terrible curses (or is it forbidden? I also get those mixed up!) and kept my wand at the ready around every corner, for the love of pete, the Dark lord is around again! Whatcha gonna do, expelliamus him again?

Still, I think the good guys need some serious killing curses, or at least the ability to reallyhurt you're enemys, maybe something like an edge.
Forgive me if any of this has been brought up before...
also, plot mechanic, that last line of spoilers...Hm...I hadn't thought of that, excellent...

In short, Harrys a complete horse S*** (Sorry, not a big Harry fan, more of a everyone around him fan!)

skritsys
December 8th, 2005, 05:47 AM
I kind of like the darkness of the stories, it is very fitting because Harry is acting all spoiled and not learning. Harry has learned how to do as little as possible and get the desired result. Cheating his way out of this and that.
and the way he blows off Hagrid later in the series is proof that he doesn't respect anyone if they cannot help him in any sense of the word
What makes Harry Potter so big, is that the majority of the fanbase are children and teens. When our future generation makes Harry Potter the end all, be all of everything, and the kind of examples that Harry is setting, action without consequence, and that your friends are always going to bail you out, that you can wave a wand and magically correct your problems, it does not suprise me.
Psycho-babbling aside, it is entertaining, and I would not be suprised to learn that Harry Potter (possible is the next Anakin Skywalker

BigGator5
December 8th, 2005, 04:34 PM
Were I harry, I probably woulda memorised the three most terrible curses (or is it forbidden? I also get those mixed up!) and kept my wand at the ready around every corner, for the love of pete, the Dark lord is around again!

They are "The Unforgivable Curses".

chyron
December 8th, 2005, 04:39 PM
If you haven't figured it out...

Harry Potter will die as he posses one of Valdemore's(sp?) souls.

AzMcNeil
December 8th, 2005, 05:08 PM
Wow, a Harry Potter bashing thread on a Stargate Forum site. I've seen it all now.

In regards to everyone's comments against your Harry, [mod snipped]. Honestly, it's a book, but looking at it from the outside you have to realize that this kid has been abused since day 1. Pardon me if I unleash a series of spoilers for the Harry Potter series but if your hear you at least know whats going on.

1) Harry's parents are dead. He has never grown up with a loving mother and father. His Aunt, Uncle, and *******ly cousin have kept him in a cupboard under the stairs for at least a decade. Sure he has a room now but thats because Dumbledore threatened the Dursley's into giving it to him. With all that being said, throughout the entire series he has shown an incredible capacity to love and care for people.

2) The kid has had no real friends until he met Ron and Hermione on the Hogwarts Express during his first school year at Hogwarts. He has never know companionship and was definetly never shown and trust or respect from said family members (Dursly's). Again, since he has started attending school and Hogwart's he has shown us that he is able to show respect towards others and truly have trust in certain individuals.

3) Dumbledore keeping Harry out of the wizarding world is somewhat of a catch22. Yes Harry has never been exposed to the fame and celebrity status that he would rightfully expect, being the boy who survived and all, but would all of it have turned young Harry into a Draco-like individual. On the other hand, being kept in a god dman cupboard doesn't do him any good either.

4) The moment he starts acting like a normal kid, this big bad-ass evil wizard, Voldemort, and his henchmen start coming out of the wood works with plans to kill him. So now we have a, and I'll use this term loosely, ferral child (look it up if you don't understand it, it's rather intersting :)) who has never been loved, nurtured, and whatever else you show towards a child. This child has no friends and no real loving family, but as soon as he meets people who like him, accept him, and take him in, now he has to watch out for a bunch of freaks in black robes chasing him with sticks yelling spells at him. I know I would be pretty F***ed up in the head if I had to deal with that daily.

5) Another point, Harry finds out he still has family, in a sense, with Sirius Black. Harry finally seems to be happy and then what happens... poof, oh look your only family member who you've known for only a year is now dead and gone forever. Go study little Harry and don't focus on it. [mod snipped] Everyone that criticizes this story book boy for getting a little pissy and down right mean for all that crap he has to deal with throughout his life, you are the cruelest people in the world. If this were a real life situation, none of you would feel this way, [mod snipped]

6) The only father figure Harry has ever had dies. Dumbledore, don't call him Gandalf, is probably the coolest fictional person ever. He has all his strengths but his weakness is trust. 6 years Harry has always had Dumbledore at his side, guiding him through his short tours of Hogwarts. Aiding him in in life, love, and friendship. Now we is dead and Harry has revenge on the mind. If someone killed your father would you just stand there and say "Oh, I forgive you!" [mod snipped] Hell no, you would go Rambo on that person's ass.

In closing, Screw Off for getting mad at poor Harry for getting darker and meaner as his years progress. He has been through more (fictional) s**t than any of us can ever imagine (except for JKR, [mod snipped] )

Thank you

My views are alcohol induced and do not refelct the views of Gateworld or any of it's members :)

BigGator5
December 8th, 2005, 05:53 PM
Harry Potter will die as he posses one of Valdemore's(sp?) souls.

Why would Voldemort want to kill his own Horcrux?

chyron
December 8th, 2005, 07:39 PM
Why would Voldemort want to kill his own Horcrux?
That I can't answer other than he doesn't realize that that's the case. Remember the locket or whatever that contained one which was replaced with a fake and the note? I'm willing to be that that's the connection.

BigGator5
December 8th, 2005, 09:28 PM
The theory is still a waste of time.

I mean, who guessed that Snape was the Half-Blood Prince? Also, who saw the death of Dumbledore? Answer to both, no one did. Everyone and their brother had a theory about HBP, and I don't remember anyone of them being Snape/Dumbledore. I thought it would be Hagrid/Neville Longbottom.

There also no reason for Harry to be a Horcrux. What does Harry have to do to stop Voldemort, kill himself? Like we need a teen hero for suicide. I can see it now: "To solve all your problems, kill youself." -Harry Potter

Erised
December 8th, 2005, 09:30 PM
[mod snipped]
some of you need and either read all the books and appreciate them or not bother reading book 6 and then going here and *b*i*t*c*hing about it.

as for getting darker...
have a look at the interview!!!!!!!
July 16 Emerson from Mugglenet and Melissa from the Leaky Cauldron interview with JKR.


JKR:
You're right, it is an intense message, but I am ultimately writing about evil, and I have said before, I think, that I'm surprised when sometimes people say to me, “Oh, you know, the books are getting so dark.” I'm thinking, “Well, which part of ‘Philosopher's Stone’ did you think was light and fluffy?” You know, there is an innocence about it, Harry is very young when he goes to the school, but the book opens with a double murder. The possibility of death, I think, is present throughout “Philosopher’s Stone,” and I feel that there are a couple of really gruesome images in “Philosopher’s Stone.” I think the first book contains more gruesome imagery than the second, despite the giant snake, because the cloaked figure drinking the unicorn blood is pretty damn creepy. It was to me when I thought of it, and I really, right up until now, all these years later, think that the idea of the face in the back of the head [Voldemort sharing Quirrell’s body] is one of the most disturbing images in the whole book. (The whole book; I call it one big book. In the whole series.)

So, yes, it's intense, I agree with you, but I would say it's been pretty intense throughout. There are a lot of things in there that are disturbing, intentionally so, but I really don’t think I've ever crossed the line into shocking for shocking's sake. I feel that I could justify every single piece of morbid imagery in those books. The one that I wondered whether I was going to be able to get past the editors was the physical condition of Voldemort before he went into the cauldron, do you remember? He was kind of fetal. I felt an almost visceral distaste for what I had conjured up, but there's a reason it was in there and you will see that. And I discussed that with my editor and she was okay with it. In fact, she was more disturbed with the idea of the grave cracking open. I think it's the desecration idea, isn't it, again. There's nothing really to see ther — but again it's the violation of a taboo.

http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview3.shtml

BigGator5
December 8th, 2005, 09:57 PM
That I can't answer other than he doesn't realize that that's the case.

That is utter bunk. This is how the Horcrux Creation Spell works:

"After committing the act of murder, the Horcrux Creation Spell is used to encase the torn portion of the killer's soul into an object or creature."

In other words, commiting the act of murder doese not a Horcrux make. You have to cast a spell too.

So, your telling me that Voldemort made Harry a Horcrux (because he had too, you can no longer hide behind 'not realizing Harry's a Horcrux' argument) and now want's to kill him?

gatehorse
December 8th, 2005, 10:29 PM
I'm not that fond of fantasy generally. So I haven't been following Potter discussions much. Perhaps some help on current thinking amongst fans?

Have people thought that Harry in Half Blood Prince is not really very nice? I don't mean teen ager sulks unpleasant, I mean bad. As in sneaking out to spy on people, actually trying to kill them and planning to kill people.Methinks that this is not so positive a development.

Have people noticed that the big dramatic resolution in the book is Draco's choice not to kill Dumbledore?

Have people thought that Dumbledore

Have people thought that Dumbledore is right about Snape, since he knows that Snape loved Lily Potter? Meaning that the big choice for Harry is [spoiler]to forego murdering Snape, like Draco did.

Have people thought that the sorting hat messages presage a need for Harry to reconcile with Draco?

Have people thought that perhaps the scar is a Horcrux
pm
Have people thought that maybe JKR really meant what she said when she said that she did not write HP for children, and that it was going to get dark? Think about everything that has happened in the books. Is this really a children's book? No. The first couple may not have seemed so bad, but she warned us what was coming.


JKR: Well, there you go. See, I'm aware that “Half-Blood Prince” will not delight everyone, because it does shoot down some theories. I mean, if it didn't, I haven't done my job right. A few people won't particularly like it, and a lot of people aren't going to like the death very much, but that was always what was planned to come.

She also says:
JKR: Yeah, well, I think if you take a step back, in the genre of writing that I'm working in, almost always the hero must go on alone. That's the way it is, we all know that, so the question is when and how, isn't it, if you know anything about the construction of that kind of plot.
This is how the books go. Of course they're turning darker, and of course Harry will lose people along the way. Fantasy has always been my favorite genre, so I'm used to this type of book, and I love it.
http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview3.shtml

neko138
December 9th, 2005, 12:55 AM
I can see it now: (harry becomes Darth)
Hermoine: Harry, you're breaking my heart!!
Ron: You were the chosen one!!

I agree, of course these books will be taking on a darker dimension, the series has created a seriously twisted kid. In fact, it would be silly if harry turned into a fifteen year old Without issues. We all had/have issues that we had to overcome at some point. As long as the story continues to be somewhat believable and there arent any stupid twists, it will be good. As for JK Rowling, there are rumour circulating that she didnt even write HBP, but had a team writing for her. I dont really care either way.

Erised
December 9th, 2005, 04:09 AM
I can see it now: (harry becomes Darth)
Hermoine: Harry, you're breaking my heart!!
Ron: You were the chosen one!!

I agree, of course these books will be taking on a darker dimension, the series has created a seriously twisted kid. In fact, it would be silly if harry turned into a fifteen year old Without issues. We all had/have issues that we had to overcome at some point. As long as the story continues to be somewhat believable and there arent any stupid twists, it will be good. As for JK Rowling, there are rumour circulating that she didnt even write HBP, but had a team writing for her. I dont really care either way.
:couh: that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Go write your [mod snipped] theories somewhere else.

LtColCarter
December 9th, 2005, 04:28 AM
Wow, a Harry Potter bashing thread on a Stargate Forum site. I've seen it all now.

In regards to everyone's comments against your Harry, [mod snipped]. Honestly, it's a book, but looking at it from the outside you have to realize that this kid has been abused since day 1. Pardon me if I unleash a series of spoilers for the Harry Potter series but if your hear you at least know whats going on.

1) Harry's parents are dead. He has never grown up with a loving mother and father. His Aunt, Uncle, and *******ly cousin have kept him in a cupboard under the stairs for at least a decade. Sure he has a room now but thats because Dumbledore threatened the Dursley's into giving it to him. With all that being said, throughout the entire series he has shown an incredible capacity to love and care for people.

2) The kid has had no real friends until he met Ron and Hermione on the Hogwarts Express during his first school year at Hogwarts. He has never know companionship and was definetly never shown and trust or respect from said family members (Dursly's). Again, since he has started attending school and Hogwart's he has shown us that he is able to show respect towards others and truly have trust in certain individuals.

3) Dumbledore keeping Harry out of the wizarding world is somewhat of a catch22. Yes Harry has never been exposed to the fame and celebrity status that he would rightfully expect, being the boy who survived and all, but would all of it have turned young Harry into a Draco-like individual. On the other hand, being kept in a god dman cupboard doesn't do him any good either.

4) The moment he starts acting like a normal kid, this big bad-ass evil wizard, Voldemort, and his henchmen start coming out of the wood works with plans to kill him. So now we have a, and I'll use this term loosely, ferral child (look it up if you don't understand it, it's rather intersting :)) who has never been loved, nurtured, and whatever else you show towards a child. This child has no friends and no real loving family, but as soon as he meets people who like him, accept him, and take him in, now he has to watch out for a bunch of freaks in black robes chasing him with sticks yelling spells at him. I know I would be pretty F***ed up in the head if I had to deal with that daily.

5) Another point, Harry finds out he still has family, in a sense, with Sirius Black. Harry finally seems to be happy and then what happens... poof, oh look your only family member who you've known for only a year is now dead and gone forever. Go study little Harry and don't focus on it. [mod snipped] Everyone that criticizes this story book boy for getting a little pissy and down right mean for all that crap he has to deal with throughout his life, you are the cruelest people in the world. If this were a real life situation, none of you would feel this way,[mod snipped]

6) The only father figure Harry has ever had dies. Dumbledore, don't call him Gandalf, is probably the coolest fictional person ever. He has all his strengths but his weakness is trust. 6 years Harry has always had Dumbledore at his side, guiding him through his short tours of Hogwarts. Aiding him in in life, love, and friendship. Now we is dead and Harry has revenge on the mind. If someone killed your father would you just stand there and say "Oh, I forgive you!" [mod snipped] Hell no, you would go Rambo on that person's ass.

In closing, Screw Off for getting mad at poor Harry for getting darker and meaner as his years progress. He has been through more (fictional) s**t than any of us can ever imagine (except for JKR, [mod snipped] )

Thank you

My views are alcohol induced and do not refelct the views of Gateworld or any of it's members :)

I agree with you 100%! I think if I'd had all of that stuff happening to me that I would react similarly. What I liked is that starting with GOF Harry is acting more like a normal teenager instead of a child who has been cloistered all of his life and kept in a broom closet under the stairs.

LtColCarter
December 9th, 2005, 04:33 AM
The theory is still a waste of time.

I mean, who guessed that Snape was the Half-Blood Prince? Also, who saw the death of Dumbledore? Answer to both, no one did. Everyone and their brother had a theory about HBP, and I don't remember anyone of them being Snape/Dumbledore. I thought it would be Hagrid/Neville Longbottom.

There also no reason for Harry to be a Horcrux. What does Harry have to do to stop Voldemort, kill himself? Like we need a teen hero for suicide. I can see it now: "To solve all your problems, kill youself." -Harry Potter

Again...I agree because Dumblebor said that horcrux would be extremely difficult to place in a living object (or something to that extent). So, I don't see Harry being a horcrux. However...I think that Sirrius' <sp> brother had something to do with the horcrux being missing from the locket

Erised
December 9th, 2005, 04:48 AM
Again...I agree because Dumblebor said that horcrux would be extremely difficult to place in a living object (or something to that extent). So, I don't see Harry being a horcrux. However...I think that Sirrius' <sp> brother had something to do with the horcrux being missing from the locket

it's not missing.. well I don't think.
Remember they found a locket in Sirius' house that no one could open? (OotP) what's the reason for it to be locked so tight? It's all covered in magic to prevent people from opening it.
join us in HP appreciation thread istead of this place where some clueless people are bashing Harry.

LtColCarter
December 9th, 2005, 07:11 AM
it's not missing.. well I don't think.
Remember they found a locket in Sirius' house that no one could open? (OotP) what's the reason for it to be locked so tight? It's all covered in magic to prevent people from opening it.
join us in HP appreciation thread istead of this place where some clueless people are bashing Harry.

Oh...I'm not bashing. I love HP...and the HP series. I was just agreeing with someone who supporting or giving rationale for Harry being a little angsty in the more recent books.

You have a good point. Yes, the found a locket in Sirius' house that was protected with magic. I think, somehow, Sirius' brother is connected to it. The initials RAB were found on the scrap of paper in the locket that Harry and Dumbledor retrieved, and he was a death eater...allbeit a death eater that wasn't important enough to be killed by Voldemort. The only fault with my theory is that Regulus Black is supposed to be dead. I still think Regulus has something to do with it and that he may still be alive. I also think that Snape didn't kill Dumbledor. My reasoning being:

1) Snape knew of Voldemort's plan to have Draco kill Dumbledor. If he is as trustworthy as Dumbledor believes than he would've made Albus aware of the plan and precautions would've been taken.
2) When Snape uses the Avada Kedavra on Albus, he doesn't immediately fall over dead. He is pushed back and fell over like a "rag doll." Whereas, every other time the Avada Kedavra was used...the person fell over dead immediately.
3) Fawkes also flies down to Dumbledor. What do phoenix tears do? They heal...

Anyway...those are my theories...I can't wait for book 7!

Erised
December 9th, 2005, 08:03 AM
Oh...I'm not bashing. I love HP...and the HP series. I was just agreeing with someone who supporting or giving rationale for Harry being a little angsty in the more recent books.

You have a good point. Yes, the found a locket in Sirius' house that was protected with magic. I think, somehow, Sirius' brother is connected to it. The initials RAB were found on the scrap of paper in the locket that Harry and Dumbledor retrieved, and he was a death eater...allbeit a death eater that wasn't important enough to be killed by Voldemort. The only fault with my theory is that Regulus Black is supposed to be dead. I still think Regulus has something to do with it and that he may still be alive. I also think that Snape didn't kill Dumbledor. My reasoning being:

1) Snape knew of Voldemort's plan to have Draco kill Dumbledor. If he is as trustworthy as Dumbledor believes than he would've made Albus aware of the plan and precautions would've been taken.
2) When Snape uses the Avada Kedavra on Albus, he doesn't immediately fall over dead. He is pushed back and fell over like a "rag doll." Whereas, every other time the Avada Kedavra was used...the person fell over dead immediately.
3) Fawkes also flies down to Dumbledor. What do phoenix tears do? They heal...

Anyway...those are my theories...I can't wait for book 7!

lol I didn't say you were bashing :D I said that some people here were bashing, and that if you want you can join us at Harry-lovers thread :D

Many people including me share your theories :) and who RAB is too.

but I never thought about #2 actually. That's a really good point! Maybe that's what DD menat by "I can hide you, Draco"

captainpash
December 9th, 2005, 08:18 AM
Harry potter won't turn to the darkside. JK would never do that. The character has always been about being pure of heart and doing what is right no matter what. There is no way she would break that now. It is one of the major themes of the HBP. It was in the first one with the mirror and how he only wanted the stone to get it away from lord voldemort.

skritsys
December 9th, 2005, 09:06 AM
Despite the criticism, I still stand by my opinion of the book and character. IMO the whole point that Harry is growing as an individual is the issue. I know this is a story of a kid who was raised in harsh conditions and unable to have a normal childhood, and how we can always hear the argument that "if this was real and happening to someone, how can you not sympathize?"
Harry is reacting as though he doesn't realize what sacrifices were made to protect him. And he probably never will until he gets much older. He is acting a bit spoiled, and yes I am saying it and I have read all the books and seen all the movies and will read and see all the movies and books to come.
I am not bashing Harry Potter, I am simply saying that the character that is revered by so many people, i.e. the younger people out there that will one day be our future have put Harry Potter on a pedestal. The point that I am getting out of the HP books is not that Harry is the hero, but simply a magical genius who out of luck and his friends who care about him, is able to sail through his problems.
He needs his friends more and more to help keep him on the straight and narrow. A hero so to speak is never alone, a hero is smart enough and intelligent enough to work through issues by depending on the skills of everyone around him. If it wasn't for Dumbledore, Hagrid, Hermione, and the Weasleys, Harry would not have the advantages he has.
SpiderMan had AuntMae, Uncle Ben, and MJ. Every hero has his/her friends that can be counted on to provide insight. No one is ever alone. Harry's character, for being so "gifted" is unable to see that.

Erised
December 9th, 2005, 09:11 AM
Harry potter won't turn to the darkside. JK would never do that. The character has always been about being pure of heart and doing what is right no matter what. There is no way she would break that now. It is one of the major themes of the HBP. It was in the first one with the mirror and how he only wanted the stone to get it away from lord voldemort.
of course he wouldn't. That's a stupid idea somebody created

The Signal
December 9th, 2005, 09:21 AM
I dont think he will turn into some dark wizard or anything, but he is definately becomeing a much darker character who pays less and less thought to the consequences of what he is doing upon those around him, that is how he is darker now, but i think by the end of Book 7, he will turn to become the pure inncocent he was back in TPS. How he does that is how his final fate will be decided

SlytherinGal
December 9th, 2005, 10:13 AM
you know maybe if you guys would go and read all the books and watch all the movies...you would get a clue and GROW UP!!! this is the stupidest thread ever...all it is is a *****ing match and ranting match. Just because you guys don't like Harry Potter, etc...doesn't mean you have to make a thread about it stating you're theories...go read the books and watch the movies.

GROW UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and get a life and as Erised said, go write your theories somewhere else other then here. PATHETIC!!

Erised
December 9th, 2005, 10:20 AM
^ totally agree 100%!
It's like saying "I hate Stargate. I saw one episode and it was so stupid!"
GROW UP
I stopped hating things before experiencing them years ago. You people are older than me and I would think you'd grow out of it too, but apparently not!

AcidSquid
December 9th, 2005, 10:34 AM
Rodney Mad Rodney Mad!!!

SlytherinGal
December 9th, 2005, 10:43 AM
^ totally agree 100%!
It's like saying "I hate Stargate. I saw one episode and it was so stupid!"
GROW UP
I stopped hating things before experiencing them years ago. You people are older than me and I would think you'd grow out of it too, but apparently not!

i totally agree...it would be like if I, or someone else, created an 'I Hate Stargate' thread (of course I wouldn't cuz I like Stargate), but that is a good example.

Don't go starting "wars" so-to-speak without think about your actions first...I am trying to be civil and such, but if this keeps up, I will lose my cool and you DO NOT want that.

Skydiver
December 9th, 2005, 10:45 AM
guys

I will freely admit that i haven't read this thread closely, largely because i have yet to see the latest movie and would like it to be a surprise. However i would like to remind everyone of one of gateworld's rules, Respect your fellow posters.

that means to respect thier opinions as well.

No fighting, no calling of names, no rude comments.

debate the topic, not the posters.

If this thread goes too far, it will go away.

SlytherinGal
December 9th, 2005, 10:52 AM
thanks for your quick response Skydiver :D

Erised
December 9th, 2005, 11:19 AM
please, make this thread go away, Skydiver. I think me and Potions Mistress are going to lose it.., go crazy... nuts... insane... bonzo... no longer in possessions of one's faculties... three fries short of a Happy Meal... WACKO!!!

TameFarrar
December 9th, 2005, 11:38 AM
The basics have been cleaned up so that arguments are on topic.

However, like Skydiver has pointed everyone has a right to an opinion as long as it is stated with respect to other members.
I have read each and EVERY post so far in this thread...cleaned up some language and seen that for the most part this has been a discussion that really was NOT esculating into anything to crazy.

What I would suggest is that anyone who dearly loves Harry Potter and is really offended by the view-point view-point of the original poster to NOT post in this thread. The first post was fairly concise in its topic and the reasons behind it and many of the following posts have had a very intelligent and thoughtful discussion.

SlytherinGal
December 9th, 2005, 11:45 AM
okay, thanks Tame :D

skritsys
December 9th, 2005, 11:46 AM
Why is everyone going so ballistic? At least over in the Star Trek sections we have differing opinions and no one is calling the other an idiot. I am a big fan of HP, SW, SG, ST, D+D, and the last time I posted, I made some observations of HP and presented an opinion.
Someone started this thread presenting the topic of HP going all Vader. And then when someone starts to say something that pretty much validates that point, they are called an idiot or criticized for supposedly not reading every book, or seeing all the movies.
I frequent HP OHIO, have many HP friends, hang out w/ HP fans, and will continue to be a HP fan. Most of the fan groups I know of do not invalidate someone simply because they have not seen or read all the books or movies. They welcome them.
To insult someone or be derogatory demonstrates a total lack of objectivity when presenting an argument. There may be some disagreement over facets of character development in the HP universe, but there is no need to call people pathetic or idiots.

SlytherinGal
December 9th, 2005, 12:18 PM
i am not bashing everyone's opinions...as a matter a fact, i liked your opinions skritsys...:D...

skritsys
December 9th, 2005, 12:23 PM
though Dumbledore dies in the books, does not that mean he will be around in a painting or is he really dead? He may be appear to be dead, but throughout the entire series we always hear Dumbledore providing cryptic responses to HP to aid him. That would go to show the DD, knows what is going on and would plan ahead.

plot mechanic
December 10th, 2005, 08:02 AM
I hadn't noticed that the thread seems to have come back to life.

First, thanks for the reminder that there must be a spell for a Horcrux to be made, as well as a death. That would seem to rule out the scar, or Harry himself, as a possible Horcrux.

Second, regardless of what Rowling consciously intended, or how more committed HP fans feel, personally I feel that some of HP's actions are morally wrong. The character faces increasingly serious moral questions. As I see it, there is every indication that Harry has not understood these questions, and is being sorely tempted to do evil in response to evil.

Third, I do not think that this is Potter bashing. I think that growing up is a main theme of the story. Realizing that parents/surrogates are not perfect and all powerful (neither James, Lily, Sirius nor Dumbledore,) or that unpleasant people are still people and may have good reason (Snape, anyone?) for their actions in my opinion have been major elements in the story thus far. Is it so wrong to think that maybe the story has a more sophisticated morality than "kill the bad guy?"

pm

captainpash
December 10th, 2005, 01:00 PM
People are entitled to do think what they want, but the fact is that Harry Potter has always been about being good, and JK will never change that.

LtColCarter
December 10th, 2005, 03:28 PM
though Dumbledore dies in the books, does not that mean he will be around in a painting or is he really dead? He may be appear to be dead, but throughout the entire series we always hear Dumbledore providing cryptic responses to HP to aid him. That would go to show the DD, knows what is going on and would plan ahead.

At the end of book 6 it says that when Harry is taken to Dumbledor's office to discuss what has happened that he notices a new paiting of Dumbledor. However, if my theory pans out...the painting may be there just to keep up the illusion that Dumbledor is dead.


...Is it so wrong to think that maybe the story has a more sophisticated morality than "kill the bad guy?"

pm

No, it isn't. I agree that the plot lines have more to them than just eliminate the bad guy. Unfortunately, we will have to wait for book 7 to find out how specific story lines play out.

Exiled Master
December 10th, 2005, 03:29 PM
I feel that the original post needs to be addressed.

I'm not that fond of fantasy generally. So I haven't been following Potter discussions much. Perhaps some help on current thinking amongst fans?

Have people thought that Harry in Half Blood Prince is not really very nice? I don't mean teen ager sulks unpleasant, I mean bad. As in sneaking out to spy on people, actually trying to kill them and planning to kill people.Methinks that this is not so positive a development.

Have people noticed that the big dramatic resolution in the book is Draco's choice not to kill Dumbledore?

Have people thought that Dumbledore

Have people thought that Dumbledore is right about Snape, since he knows that Snape loved Lily Potter? Meaning that the big choice for Harry is [spoiler]to forego murdering Snape, like Draco did.

Have people thought that the sorting hat messages presage a need for Harry to reconcile with Draco?

Have people thought that perhaps the scar is a Horcrux
pm
We know from OotP that Snape is heartless and neither loves or likes anyone. He is a heartless and ruthless fiend, as we find in HBP. I doubt that JKR would recall the theme of mercy (from PoA) for the final battle, unless in some dramatic departure from Harry's emotional trajectory it becomes the mechanism for Voldemort's defeat. I don't see Harry as replacing Voldemort, because the would have killed somebody already.

Madeleine
December 11th, 2005, 02:55 AM
People are entitled to do think what they want, but the fact is that Harry Potter has always been about being good, and JK will never change that.

How do you know that? Harry may need to face some darkness within before good can ultimately triumph. For a good person to stay good involves less drama than for a good person who's done bad things to redeem himself and end up as good (or better) than when he started.

Madeleine
December 11th, 2005, 03:03 AM
People are entitled to do think what they want, but the fact is that Harry Potter has always been about being good, and JK will never change that.

How do you know that? Harry may need to face some darkness within before good can ultimately triumph. For a good person to stay good involves less drama than for a good person who's done bad things to redeem himself and end up as good (or better) than when he started.

LtColCarter
December 11th, 2005, 08:46 AM
How do you know that? Harry may need to face some darkness within before good can ultimately triumph. For a good person to stay good involves less drama than for a good person who's done bad things to redeem himself and end up as good (or better) than when he started.

We know this from reading the books. If Harry has some inner demons to battle...I doubt that it will involve things that would lead him down the dark wizarding path. As was stated in previous posts...this would be too much of a departure from the path that JKR has been taking Harry down, and it would not be consistant.

immhotep
December 11th, 2005, 01:50 PM
i have to disagree, emotional trauma like your parents dieing, or seeing your entire blood ties to the world vanish within a few years of each other could spark off alot of issues within. We know harry has no issue with dieing but he has fear of killing. for all we know this dark side hes coming in to could be his facing of death. He now knows the only way for him to be free from his past is to end a life or for his life to end, thats a horrible thing to have to deal with.
Also i think a little dark side could be a good thing, im not saying he should become a death eater but if he can learn about the dark side, explore it, understand it then maybe he has a better chance when the final battle finally has to be fought.
maybe this is the path JK has led him down.

plot mechanic
December 11th, 2005, 06:48 PM
In Rowling's universe, it appears that the dark side is not somehow separate as in the Star Wars universe. I think the "darkness" is how the magic is used, as for example slashing/stabbing an enemy; spying on people with impunity; making a list of people to kill; appointing oneself judge, jury and executioner, seriously enough to rearrange personal life, and so forth. Certainly, Harry will never be a Death Eater, nor ever tempted to be one, if only because Voldemort appointed himself a mortal enemy in Harry's infancy.

In Half Blood Prince, Snape makes an Unbreakable Vow to save Draco Malfoy. This was entirely unnecessary, indeed, showed conclusively that Snape's devotion to Voldemort was false in at least that one regard.. Why not in all regards? At least, what heartless or ruthless fiendishness impels this action? As to Snape's love for Lily...I don't think Harry's point of view is the author's, nor is it to be taken as the reader's. I can only say that Snape, seen with adult eyes, seems like a man angry at the visible reminder of his rival's victory in love.

Last, if Draco Malfoy, taught at home to revere Voldemort, under threat to himself and family, with hope for father's return, can still choose not to kill, would Harry's murder of Voldemort, Snape, Draco Malfoy (and Umbridge, Kreacher, Rita Skeeter and who else at the rate he's going?) truly be a satsifying end to the story?

pm

neko138
December 11th, 2005, 08:58 PM
*short rant*
FYI: my last post was making a joke (well the first bit), if you cant appreciate humour and parody of another movie, then you need to grow up sweet heart. Jeez, and just because people here might have differing opinions of the movie, books, etc, doesnt mean they're any less fans than anyone else. it's an opinion, and everyone is entitled to such. as for the ghost writing, i already said i dont care either way. it could be written by a four year old savont for all i care. its about the story, not the writer.
theres no need to get your knickers in a twist. And fyi, i have read the books and seen the movies and i dont appreciate being abused by a kid.
*rant over*

There was a suggestion floating around somewhere that there is a reason Dumbledore keeps a phoenix in his office (healing tears) because he knows/knew something would eventually happen.

gatehorse
December 11th, 2005, 09:48 PM
In Half Blood Prince, Snape makes an Unbreakable Vow to save Draco Malfoy. This was entirely unnecessary, indeed, showed conclusively that Snape's devotion to Voldemort was false in at least that one regard..
Why was it unecessary and in what regard are you talking about?

skritsys
December 12th, 2005, 11:50 AM
I would tend to agree with the Phoenix observation. It is obvious that the Phoenix would not let Dumbledore die. I would not think that JKR would kill off Dumbledore so easily either.

MartoufMarty
December 12th, 2005, 01:32 PM
I love the whole Harry Potter thing (especially since it's getting so dark). The problem is (to me at least):

Harry has been through alot of bad stuff, but still he doesn't seem to get the concept of consquences.

Maybe it's just supposed to be another one of those teenage things I don't get, but it really makes me mad when he's more concerned about missing Quidditch than the fact that he almost killed someone.

SlytherinGal
December 12th, 2005, 02:19 PM
i totally agree Marty. it seems that JK Rowling wanted to make Harry more like someone who doesn't care about killing someone and someone who wants to cause trouble, play Quidditch, etc.

ShadowMaat
December 12th, 2005, 02:47 PM
Wow, and I thought Stargate fandom was vicious! Just look at all the mod edits and nasty comments directed at people over a bunch of books! ...OK, books and movies. ;)

Reading over this thread, I see very little in the way of attacks against Harry Potter (who is, BTW, a fictional character), but I HAVE seen plenty of attacks against folks voicing less-than-popular opinions. What's up with that??

My take on things: Harry IS going darkside. The books have been getting grimmer, the choices Harry faces are getting tougher, and the line between good and bad is getting very blurry.

Harry has done remarkably well, all things considered. HBP Especially since he carries a part of Voldemort within him. But he has ALWAYS been tempted by the "dark side" so to speak- whether because of that Voldy bit in him or because he's simply human, it doesn't matter- point is, it's there, burning within him. HBP more than any other book has demonstrated that potential for darkness within him.

Harry has also tried to use one of the unforgiveable curses before, but couldn't, because he didn't truly have it within him to do it. At that point. And in the GoF movie (I can't remember if it's in the book, too) there is a moment where Harry hesitates before going back to help Cedric.
Cedric: For a moment I didn't think you were coming back.
Harry: For a moment, neither did I.

His desperate burning need to prove himself is, IMO, just another part of this darkness within him.

I fully expect that the final book will be VERY bleak and will see Harry tempted once again by the darkness. If he gives in to it, I won't be surprised, but I doubt that he will STAY darkside. He'll get his shot at redemption and he'll shine brighter than ever before, in true Harry style. :)

Does the fact that I think Harry has the capacity for great evil in him make be a Harry basher? Does the fact that I think he might give in to temptation mean I hate the character? I certainly don't think so. I love the books and I think Harry is a highly complex, deeply emotional character... but I also don't think he's some ultra-perfect golden boy. I probably wouldn't read the books if he was. Harry has faults... as we all do, and the books have never shied away from showing us those faults and their impact and how Harry reacts to them. It's one of the things that makes the books so good. At least in my opinion. ;)

captainpash
December 12th, 2005, 03:36 PM
I thought I settled this. Harry is a character of moral fiber who for all intents and purposes is good. He will never even put one toe on the darkside because it is not something he can do. JK has the darkside being a world with outl ove. Harry can love, and that is his gift he has preventing him from going to the darkside.

gatehorse
December 12th, 2005, 04:50 PM
Harry has been through alot of bad stuff, but still he doesn't seem to get the concept of consquences.

Maybe it's just supposed to be another one of those teenage things I don't get...
Hmmm....that makes me think it might be related to psychology...one of the things that might influence teens to make the kind of reckless decisions they do is that the brain doesn't finish developing until you're in your twenties, and the decision-making part is the last to fully develop. Technical explanation if you care. :P I dunno if JKR has ever taken any psych courses though.

MartoufMarty
December 12th, 2005, 05:13 PM
Hmmm....that makes me think it might be related to psychology...one of the things that might influence teens to make the kind of reckless decisions they do is that the brain doesn't finish developing until you're in your twenties, and the decision-making part is the last to fully develop. Technical explanation if you care. :P I dunno if JKR has ever taken any psych courses though.
... Reckless decisions? Rebelling?

... I must have missed that memo :P

ShadowMaat
December 12th, 2005, 05:20 PM
I thought I settled this. Harry is a character of moral fiber who for all intents and purposes is good. He will never even put one toe on the darkside because it is not something he can do. JK has the darkside being a world with outl ove. Harry can love, and that is his gift he has preventing him from going to the darkside.
Oh, well, by all means then, Ms. Rowling. Pray forgive my GRIEVOUS error in daring to express my own opinion without consulting you first. :P

Until I hear different, though (such as learning that you are, in fact, JK), I'll assume that I'm still allowed to politely disagree with your opinion. ;)

neko138
December 12th, 2005, 05:23 PM
you dont have to have taken a psych course to see how the teen is developing in harry. after all, most people would go through some period of darkness, rebelling, etc. But, as for not going to the dark side, and briefly referring back to the anikin theme before, if you see Ep3, you would know that Ani went to the dark side, partly because of his own desire for power and also for the desire to save Padme. I could imagine Harry trying to do the right thing which may see him crossing the line. He might not be entirely evil, like Ani, who we see later still has shreds of humanity, but he's not perfect anymore either.

I think we saw it begin in GOF, after he experienced Cedric die and the connection to his family and friends. Harry isnt going to turn into the next voldemort, obviously, but sometimes you have to experience the darkness before you can appreciate the light.

Lightsabre
December 12th, 2005, 06:35 PM
Harry going bad. I love this topic!!! :)

In the books, Dumbledore tells Harry that he is protected by his ability to love.
THat LOVE is the power that Voldermort doesn't know, and will never understand(given that he's shredded his soul too much to actually experience it).
For this reason, Harry will never JOIN Voldermort.
Given that one of his best friends is a muggle born, I think he's unlikely to adopt Voldermort's policies.

However, does this mean Harry will always be sweetness and light. That's tosh. No one is perfect. Harry never was and he never will be.
Harry could be just as evil as Voldermort, to protect what he loves as Anakin Skywalker did. Had he not loved Padme so much that he couldn't bear to lose her and had he not had a childhood filled with loss and grief, he could have accepted what happened or averted it.


As to the comment that he worried more over not playing Quidditich than almost killing Draco, am I the only one who remembers the stunned horror he was in after it happened? or how he desperately babbled, trying to explain he didn't know the spell was lethal?
When he was punished, he KNEW Malfoy was ok and was healing. So, yes, Quidditch became his main concern.
Also remember that he tells Hermione that he agrees that what he did was wrong and he should be punished.

As to Snape being cruel and a fiend, He's obviously someone who had a pretty terrible home life.
Add that to him being picked on by Harry's father(Tho I'm sure Snape did his share), and you get why Harry annoys him so.
However, throughout the series, Snape has been protecting Harry, NOT trying to harm him.
Does anyone REALLY think Harry stood much of chance in the final duel with Snape in HBP. I don't. Snape was continually blocking Harry's attacks and ONLY struck back when it seems Harry had taunted him one time too many.
Even then, tho, he didn't use a lethal attack.

Finally, Dumbledore.(this section is in spoilers cause it relies on HBP)

Dumbledore does die. I believe this for 2 reasons.
1)Dumbledore, being the only wizard that Voldermort fears, HAD to die before the end. HE was the last one shielding Harry from Voldermort.
2)The magic that creates a portrait of the headmasters on their death.
I also believe he will come back. Why?
At the funeral, Fawkes flies down to the bier he's on and there's a bright light or fire of some sort.
Fawkes is a pheonix. Phoenix's die in fire and are reborn from the ashes. I think Fawkes being with Dumbledore then will rebirth both of them.
But that's just me!! :)

gatehorse
December 12th, 2005, 07:13 PM
Finally, Dumbledore.(this section is in spoilers cause it relies on HBP)

Dumbledore does die. I believe this for 2 reasons.
1)Dumbledore, being the only wizard that Voldermort fears, HAD to die before the end. HE was the last one shielding Harry from Voldermort.
2)The magic that creates a portrait of the headmasters on their death.
I also believe he will come back. Why?
At the funeral, Fawkes flies down to the bier he's on and there's a bright light or fire of some sort.
Fawkes is a pheonix. Phoenix's die in fire and are reborn from the ashes. I think Fawkes being with Dumbledore then will rebirth both of them.
But that's just me!! :)

Thank you!!! It seemed like no one else thought this! Although I disagree about him coming back. :P

gatehorse
December 12th, 2005, 07:15 PM
... Reckless decisions? Rebelling?

... I must have missed that memo :P
Sorry, I didn't say that it's also related to considering consequesnces. :P

gatehorse
December 12th, 2005, 07:16 PM
you dont have to have taken a psych course to see how the teen is developing in harry.
Never said you did. :S

neko138
December 12th, 2005, 07:20 PM
i wasnt having a pick gatehorse, just adding to your comment. :P

LtColCarter
December 12th, 2005, 07:22 PM
Of course...as to what happens in book 7...it is all speculation up to this point. I'll be waiting for the next one to come out.:rolleyes:

Lightsabre
December 12th, 2005, 07:22 PM
Thank you!!! It seemed like no one else thought this! Although I disagree about him coming back. :P

Sorry, should have clarified, I meant returning in some form. Tho, I'm pretty sure he'll be back in the flesh

gatehorse
December 12th, 2005, 07:26 PM
Sorry, should have clarified, I meant returning in some form. Tho, I'm pretty sure he'll be back in the flesh
I think his portrait will be it. I doubt he'll be back in the flesh, because no matter how you look at it, you just can't recover from the avada kedavra curse.

LtColCarter
December 12th, 2005, 07:32 PM
I think his portrait will be it. I doubt he'll be back in the flesh, because no matter how you look at it, you just can't recover from the avada kedavra curse.

Unless that's not what Snape used. Remember...Dubledor didn't react the that avada kedavra the way everyone else it was used on reacted...which was to immediately fall over dead. Plus, Snape doesn't have to say spells out loud. He could've said something else. People also over look Fawkes by Dumbledor's side. However, we'll all have to wait until book 7 to see what happens!

Lightsabre
December 12th, 2005, 07:47 PM
Unless that's not what Snape used. Remember...Dubledor didn't react the that avada kedavra the way everyone else it was used on reacted...which was to immediately fall over dead. Plus, Snape doesn't have to say spells out loud. He could've said something else. People also over look Fawkes by Dumbledor's side. However, we'll all have to wait until book 7 to see what happens!

the Avada Kedavra curse is always characterised by a flash of green light.
DOes anyone remember if there was one when Snape killed Dumbledore??
That might answer the question.

gatehorse
December 12th, 2005, 09:13 PM
Unless that's not what Snape used. Remember...Dubledor didn't react the that avada kedavra the way everyone else it was used on reacted...which was to immediately fall over dead. Plus, Snape doesn't have to say spells out loud. He could've said something else. People also over look Fawkes by Dumbledor's side. However, we'll all have to wait until book 7 to see what happens!
I thought he did fall over..didn't he? They were on a tower right? And he fell backwards to the ground? I don't remember there being anything different about his reaction...
Good point about Snape, that is something to consider, but just because he doesn't have to say it out loud doesn't mean that when he does say it out loud, it wasn't just as effective. I don't know of any spell he could have said silently that would have protected Dumbledore from the curse.

ShadowMaat
December 12th, 2005, 09:29 PM
I doubt Dumbledore will return alive. It's too easy an out and having him return would remove a major angst point in Harry's already angst-ridden life. Plus, at some point the boy is going to have to face the consequences of... everything. Book 7 seems like a good place for it to happen. :)

And I still say he's going to at least put a toe in the water on the dark side of the pond. So there. :P

LtColCarter
December 13th, 2005, 08:05 AM
the Avada Kedavra curse is always characterised by a flash of green light.
DOes anyone remember if there was one when Snape killed Dumbledore??
That might answer the question.


This is true...I don't remember a flash of light, but I will check when I get home this afternoon.



I thought he did fall over..didn't he? They were on a tower right? And he fell backwards to the ground? I don't remember there being anything different about his reaction...
Good point about Snape, that is something to consider, but just because he doesn't have to say it out loud doesn't mean that when he does say it out loud, it wasn't just as effective. I don't know of any spell he could have said silently that would have protected Dumbledore from the curse.

Yes he did fall off of the tower, however, the book said that when the curse hit him in the chest is was thrown back. Whenever we've seen the avada kedarva curse being used in the past...the person it was used on didn't get thrown back. They simply fell over dead. This wasn't the case with Dumbledor. He was hit in the chest and he flies back when Snape did the curse, and then the book said something about him falling over like a rag doll...which...again...we don't see with any previous times the curse is used

On another note...I was watching CoS last night, and towards the end when Harry gives Lucius Riddle's book and Dobbie opens it and finds a sock...Malfoy is extremely upset at Harry and it sounds like he was going to do the avada kedarva. At least that what sounds like is starting to come out of his mouth before Dobbie does his thing.

skritsys
December 13th, 2005, 09:08 AM
I tend to agree with Lighsaber's point.
Dumbledore may not come back until near the very end of Book 7 since he knows that Harry needs to find it within himself to defeat Voldemort. What better way for Harry to finally snap and push himself to learn everything he can to defeat Voldemort if he believes Dumbledore is dead.

The Signal
December 13th, 2005, 11:08 AM
LtColCarter: You are right with that one, it definately sounded like that was what he was saying

Lightsabre
December 13th, 2005, 11:30 AM
LtColCarter: You are right with that one, it definately sounded like that was what he was saying
If you turn on subtitles, he say 'avada' before Dobby hits him
But that's the DVD and they do stupid things on there.

skritsys
December 13th, 2005, 11:55 AM
Harry did tell Dobby though to not ever do that again.

Lightsabre
December 13th, 2005, 01:00 PM
Harry did tell Dobby though to not ever do that again.
Well he asked him not to save his life again.
He didn't say anything about blasting Malfoy! :)

plot mechanic
December 13th, 2005, 04:35 PM
Sorry about being so slow to clarify the point about Snape's motivations.

Narcissa asks Snape to protect Draco, even though Bellatrix points out that Voldemort's expressed orders were for Draco to be next to attempt to kill Dumbledore. Narcissa believes this to be a disguised punishment for Lucius' failure at the Ministry battle. This belief is almost certainly correct: Why else is a kid entrusted with such an important task?

If Snape is a Voldemort loyalist, why does he try to evade Voldemort's will in this fashion? And in front of Bellatrix, no less, who is openly suspicious of Snape's loyalties. By agreeing to Narcissa's plea, Snape leaves himself open to being denounced to Voldemort by Bellatrix for disobedience to Voldemort's expressed will: leaving Draco to expiate with blood Lucius' failure. The is the "regard" to which Snape is disloyal to Voldemort.

True, the part of the Unbreakable Vow about killing Dumbledore assures Bellatrix that Snape is not a spy. So? Why would he care about Bellatrix' opinion. It's Voldemort's opinion that matters. By the same token, Snape's vow reassures Narcissa about Draco's safety. But, again, why would Snape care about Narcissa's anxiety for Draco?

If Snape is disloyal to Voldemort in his sadistic scheme to sacrifice Draco, why can't he be completely disloyal? That is what "all regards" meant.

It is true that Snape may the villain he has always seemed to Harry. In which case, why doesn't Snape denounce Narcissa for her attempt to inveigle Snape into independent (non-Voldemort ordered) action?

Snape's action seems to me to be motivated by a desire to save Draco from death. As I recall it, his Unbreakable Vow did not preclude saving Draco from discovery.

To finish, my view is strongly conditioned by my belief that the death, whether real or feigned, was planned.

pm

gatehorse
December 13th, 2005, 09:27 PM
Yes he did fall off of the tower, however, the book said that when the curse hit him in the chest is was thrown back. Whenever we've seen the avada kedarva curse being used in the past...the person it was used on didn't get thrown back. They simply fell over dead. This wasn't the case with Dumbledor. He was hit in the chest and he flies back when Snape did the curse, and then the book said something about him falling over like a rag doll...which...again...we don't see with any previous times the curse is used

Wouldn't falling over like a ragdoll be like simply falling over dead? But even with being thrown back like that...I don't think it's significant. The curse still hit him. I think the only way he'll be back in the next book is as a portrait.

gatehorse
December 13th, 2005, 10:01 PM
Sorry about being so slow to clarify the point about Snape's motivations.

Narcissa asks Snape to protect Draco, even though Bellatrix points out that Voldemort's expressed orders were for Draco to be next to attempt to kill Dumbledore. Narcissa believes this to be a disguised punishment for Lucius' failure at the Ministry battle. This belief is almost certainly correct: Why else is a kid entrusted with such an important task?

If Snape is a Voldemort loyalist, why does he try to evade Voldemort's will in this fashion? And in front of Bellatrix, no less, who is openly suspicious of Snape's loyalties. By agreeing to Narcissa's plea, Snape leaves himself open to being denounced to Voldemort by Bellatrix for disobedience to Voldemort's expressed will: leaving Draco to expiate with blood Lucius' failure. The is the "regard" to which Snape is disloyal to Voldemort.

True, the part of the Unbreakable Vow about killing Dumbledore assures Bellatrix that Snape is not a spy. So? Why would he care about Bellatrix' opinion. It's Voldemort's opinion that matters. By the same token, Snape's vow reassures Narcissa about Draco's safety. But, again, why would Snape care about Narcissa's anxiety for Draco?

If Snape is disloyal to Voldemort in his sadistic scheme to sacrifice Draco, why can't he be completely disloyal? That is what "all regards" meant.

It is true that Snape may the villain he has always seemed to Harry. In which case, why doesn't Snape denounce Narcissa for her attempt to inveigle Snape into independent (non-Voldemort ordered) action?

Snape's action seems to me to be motivated by a desire to save Draco from death. As I recall it, his Unbreakable Vow did not preclude saving Draco from discovery.

To finish, my view is strongly conditioned by my belief that the death, whether real or feigned, was planned.

pmI'm not quite sure what you're saying about Snape. Do you mean that you think he is not loyal to Voldemort?
The death was planned, in that Draco was supposed to do it. Draco could easily be killed in the attempt, and Narcissa doesn't want to lose her only son. I think Snape could still be loyal to Voldemort, because treachery is part of human nature. Voldy is the only one without a shred of humanity left, and no matter how cold Snape may seem, he still has some. I think it's human nature to lie and decieve. While some of Snape's actions may show disloyalty, I still believe in the end that he was working for Voldy.

ShadowMaat
December 14th, 2005, 04:38 AM
Is it worth pointing out that this thread is about HARRY going darkside, not Snape? :P

I think Harry has the motivation and emotional turmoil necessary to go dark. I think the line between right and wrong will become even more blurred and that Harry's going to do some very questionable things before the end, but undoubtedly his friends (and his own heart) will save him. :)

LtColCarter
December 14th, 2005, 04:41 AM
I checked the book....and it is a green jet of light that shoots out of Snape's wand. However, as I've said before...in every other instance when the person is hit with the avada kedavra they immediately fall over dead. They don't get blasted into the air and seem to be suspended there and then fall over slowly like a ragdoll. This description seems to indicate that Dumbledor didn't fall...the floated to the ground. Also, there are other spells/curses with green light. And we also have Fawkes with Dumbledor. I do however, agree with a comment that was made by another poster...that if Dumbledor is alive...I don't think he will immediately come back. I think he wants his death to fuel Harry's desire to learn all he can to protect himself and defeat Lord Voldemort.

Oh...I read on mugglenet that the actor who plays Lord Voldemort will be on the Tonight Show with Jay Leno tonight! So, you may wanna check that out!:)

LtColCarter
December 14th, 2005, 04:42 AM
Is it worth pointing out that this thread is about HARRY going darkside, not Snape? :P

I think Harry has the motivation and emotional turmoil necessary to go dark. I think the line between right and wrong will become even more blurred and that Harry's going to do some very questionable things before the end, but undoubtedly his friends (and his own heart) will save him. :)

Good and very valid points Shadow! ;)

Exiled Master
December 15th, 2005, 06:42 PM
Even if John Williams were still doing the music for the movies:( :( I don't see him writing an Imperial March-type theme to the Harry Potter. Bringing Harry to the dark side would confuse a lot of people, unless there's some other series waiting (It's Star Wars all over again:rolleyes: :eek: ) It doesn't seem likely that Harry will have to seek redemption since we know that's been coming for us since Azkaban. I'm positive he'll have a Duel of the Fates (I and II) moment in Book Seven (actually, that sounds awesome:rolleyes: :D ) for the final battle.

AzMcNeil
December 28th, 2005, 02:02 PM
Love will save the boy.

LtColCarter
January 2nd, 2006, 05:57 AM
Love will save the boy.

Dumbledor was always very quick to point out that is the quality Harry has that Voldemort *shiver* doesn't.

Something else I was thinking is Harry discovers that Dumbledor and Snape were arguing earlier in the book. Could it be that Snap entrusted Dumbledor with the information about the unbreakable curse he made with Narssisa? So, they devised a plan to make it appear that Snape had used the killing curse on Dumbledor? This would enrage Harry, make him want to better himself in order to rid the world of the Dark Lord. Just a theory I picked up upon my second reading of the novel.

LtColCarter
April 6th, 2006, 11:07 AM
If you haven't figured it out...

Harry Potter will die as he posses one of Valdemore's(sp?) souls.

I kindly and humbly disagree. You see...
If the snake is one of the horcuxes as Harry thinks...we must remember that Voldemort has unusal control over it...even for a parcelmouth. That would lead one to believe that if snakey-poo is a horcrux and good 'ole Voldey has control over it...wouldn't he have control over over Harry?

mckaychick
April 6th, 2006, 11:51 AM
Love will save the boy.
yeah for awhile

LtColCarter
April 7th, 2006, 07:16 AM
yeah for awhile

This is true...it will for a while.

Another angle I was thinking about it...
Dumbledor told Harry that all of the horcruxes had to be destroyed first, which would leave good 'ole Voldie vulnerable and allow Harry to kill him. If Harry is a horcrux...he would have to destroy himself. If any of Voldemort's horcruxes are around...then he will be able to come back from death again. So, the rationale or thinking that Harry is a horcrux seems to be flawed. Since Harry is the one with the power to kill Voldemort, he can't destroy himself. Therefore, this seems to rule out Harry being a horcrux.