Large plot hole (physics based)

[geojedi]

This has to do with a few things, and it might be hard to follow; bare with me.

First I want you to read this piece of the Episode Enigma (season one)


She takes out a tomcat from the cage. The cat meows.
NARIM: I never thought I'd see a living animal.

CARTER: His name's Schrödinger. (She hands the cat to Narim, who takes it, and begins petting it.) Oh... it's kind of a joke really. His name, that is. Schrödinger's cat...

NARIM: Oh? (Confused)

CARTER: (The cat is heard purring softly) Right. Uh, see, there was an Earth physicist by the name of Erwin Schrödinger. He had this theoretical experiment. Put a cat in a box, add a can of poison gas, activated by the decay of a radioactive atom, and close the box.

NARIM: Sounds like a cruel man.

CARTER: Oh, no, no. It was just a theory. He never really did it. He said that if he did do it at any one instant, the cat would be both dead and alive at the same time.

NARIM: Ah! Kulivrian physics. An atom state is indeterminate until measured by an outside observer.

CARTER: We call it quantum physics. You know the theory?

NARIM: Yeah, I've studied it... in among other misconceptions of elementary science.

CARTER: Misconception? You telling me that you guys have licked quantum physics? (Omac is seen lurking behind her.)

Great, so our understanding of quantum physics is flawed. I am fine with that, we are very "young" compared to them. But, if they are right, then we hit a very hard problem: energy. Think of the best life form created, stable energy source out there. The most common one is the ZPM. What does that stand for? Zero-Point Module. Where does the energy come from? A piece of created subspace. How is the energy made? Why, as the name implies, from zero-point energy. But, that is the problem. If what Narim says is true zero-point energy cannot exist. I now point you to read what WIkipedia has to say about Zero-Point energy:
In a quantum mechanical system such as the particle in a box or the quantum harmonic oscillator, the lowest possible energy is called the zero-point energy. According to classical physics, the kinetic energy of a particle in a box or the kinetic energy of the harmonic oscillator may be zero if the velocity is zero. Quantum mechanics with its uncertainty principle implies that if the velocity is measured with certainty to be exactly zero, the uncertainty of the position must be infinite. This either violates the condition that the particle remain in the box, or it brings a new potential energy in the case of the harmonic oscillator . To avoid this paradox, quantum mechanics dictates that the minimal velocity is never equal to zero, and hence the minimal energy is never equal to zero. (to read the rest go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_point)

Putting these pieces together one finds something is wrong. The Ancient technology is based off of quantum physics, but Tollan is from non quantum (as in quantum is fundamentally wrong). The writers of Stargate usually do a very good of using good physics and keeping it straight, but they blundered this time.

Opinions?

[CeeKay Sheppard]

I think Narim was just talking about the one theory when he called it a "misconception", not quantum physics in general. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I get.

[uknesvuinng]

I think they messed it up when humans were able to understand Ancient tech to any degree. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, but it seems like Ancient tech, though with millions of years more advancement, seems just a little bit beyond our current grasp. I miss the days when human science was filled with elementary misconceptions and was completely unaware of particles that seemed common knowledge to our advanced neighbors.

[TrustNo1]

Oh Know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[helio9]

Narim may have just meant that somewhere along the line, they found a way around the uncertainty principal, nothing more. If it is a flaw, it's a rather small one.

[general ben]

have to agree there i think that he was talking about certain aspects of quantum physics

[geojedi]

have to agree there i think that he was talking about certain aspects of quantum physics

I think that you all could use a bit of review of your quantum physics. The uncertainty princible is very basic to it, and thus applies to almost all of quantum physics. On top of that, it directly applies to zero-point energy. It is the uncertainty of not knowing that creates the basis for the energy. I suggest that you read the whole entry at wikipedia that I linked.

I thought that the Stargate viewer base was more inclined to be scientific, but I now see that I was wrong. I am not trying to be mean, I will just note this for later (and possibly further) insights. Sorry for not offering a fuller explination from the start. I will see if I can't explain the whole thing.

[general ben]

narim was talking about atoms state and how quantum is just basically all probablity maybe they have taking the probablity out of the equations which wouldn't be out of the question in the scifi world. according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_physics there are 4 main theroies that make up quantum physics (i) the quantization (discretization) of certain physical quantities, (ii) wave-particle duality, (iii) the uncertainty principle, and (iv) quantum entanglement. and i think he is talking about the uncertainty principle which is only part of our quantum physics. i say part cause Narim specifically said "Ah! Kulivrian physics. An atom state is indeterminate until measured by an outside observer." which is more about our uncertainty principle than our science as a whole. also a lot of the quantum stuff we have is filled with holes due to unexplained phenomena that we choose to just say well you can't do that then.
but i think u are crossing between real applications and scifi which is tricky. i think that zpms are more complicated than we know of and i think we have dumbed down the ancients science to where we can understand it. Or u are right and the writers forgot about what they wrote in the first couple of seasons when they made Atlantis, which isn't out of the question.

for the record i am gonna graduate with a Mechanical Engineering degree in December but i haven't taken a physics class in a couple of years much less an intensive quantum class.

[TrustNo1]

We have another Lord Sokar on our hands

[Three PhDs]

If by Lord Sokar you mean "Someone who's right, but no-one else is smart enough to agree", then yes

[TrustNo1]

No.

[FreeStyLA]

The uncertainty principle ties in with quantum mechanics on a large scale

It is also related to the wave-particle duality theory

Basically, before the 20th century, almost everyone thought that light was a wave and only a wave. This is commonly known as part of Newtonian physics... where there are definite values that can be obtained from any experiment. In the case of light, it was proven to be a wave, because it refracted around edges, and also diffracted through circular appertures and slits. Much like how water waves acted, as well as other waveforms.

This was disputed by Planck, due to elaborate scientific investigations. It wasn't actually disputed though, rather, the whole wave theory was put into question. I'll try to explain it in layman's terms with relation to the Newtonian physics of the day... basically if you heat a perfect blackbody object (a black object that absorbs all radiation incident upon it... the opposite to a reflective object like a mirror) then what should happen is that it should radiate more energy exponentially as the frequency of the radiation emitted becomes increasingly large. (ie. for example... from radio frequencies -> gamma rays)

Planck discovered that this was not the case, and instead he found that the graph of the black bodies of Power Vs Frequency reached a peak at a certain frequency... but then started to drop off. Kind of like a bell curve when the graph should have been an exponential curve. Thus begins the process of the invention of quantum physics and its principles. This couldn't be explained well by Planck. He wrote a formula to fit nicely with the graphs he obtained and made a number called "Planck's constant". It wasn't until Einstein that it could be better explained.

Next on the book we have Einstein. He came up with the revolutionary idea that light was emitted in the form of tiny packages. These packages are called "photons" or "quanta" thus giving quantum physics its name. In simple terms, Einstein came across this through the nature of photo-electric emission. Where electrons are released given the right frequency of light. He found that with certain metals, electrons can be given off with UV radiation. However, with frequencies below this, no electrons were given off, no matter how powerful the light source. For example, even if you took 1 million torches that only emitted visible light, no electrons would be given off. But if you took just 1 small UV radiator... electrons would be given off easily. This could only be explained if light was thought of as being a particle with certain levels of energy. This forms the basis of today's Solar Cells as well as other technology. Technology based on quantum principles.

How does this relate to the uncertainty principle?

It does so because of the whole wave-particle duality thing.

For years people have wanted to know what is light really? Is it really a wave? Or is it really a particle?

The answer is that it depends on the experiment you are running. If you use diffractive experiments which are only meant to work with waveforms, then light becomes a wave. There is no conceivable way that a particle could suddenly make bright and dark patterns on a screen due to constructive and destructive interference in a diffraction-interference experiment. Likewise, there is no conceivable way that a wave-like energy would explain the graph discovered by Planck, and photoelectric emission.

One famous experiment tried to prove once and for all what light really was. The experiment consisted of a long, light-tight box with an extremely dim light at one end. At the other is photographic film. This is used to record the bright and dark bars made by interference effects from a diffraction experiment for waveforms. The box is so long, and the light is so dim, that there is never more than 1 photon in the box, going from the lamp to the film. Between the light and the film there are a pair of slits used to from a diffraction pattern. The box was left in place for several months to get enough light to produce an image. When the plate was developed, the diffraction pattern was found. The question was, how did the photon "know" where it was supposed to go? It was the only photon in the box, and so how could it behave so that it could form an interference pattern?

The same experiment was done with an electron. Everyone knows from elementary chemistry and physics that the electron is a particle.

However, when this was done with electrons... with a few at a time through double slits (of dimensions suitable to the electrons of course), a series of bright and dark bars resulted... typically a pattern for waves in a diffraction experiment.

Therefore... the result depends on the experiment you run. You know that the photon or the electron started as a particle. However when you went to measure it you interfered with the process (the placing of the pair of slits). As a result of the measurement, it then becomes one or the other, in this case a wave. There are other experiments which have a light wave from the outset being recorded in the end as a particle. Too lengthy to explain here... you get the picture.


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This is the uncertainty. Newton said that if you know the present conditions and the laws of nature, you can predict what will happen. (Watch Season 6 - Prophecy)

For example, given the mass and velocity of a tennis ball, you can tell exactly where it will go if you apply a known force to it. If measurements are done, you will find that it will follow what you calculated. There is always uncertainty in these experiments due to things such as human errors or measurement errors, but given an almost perfect experiment, it is possible to reduce the uncertainty, to increase the accuracy of measurement with no limit.

Quantum physics doesn't work like that. Dealing with atoms, small particles, and small amounts of energy, there is an ultimate limit to the accuracy of the measurement available.

Just like in the above experiments, to find out where an electron is, you have to do something to it. In this case, bombard it with a photon (light packet). This energy is enough to change things. The fact that you cannot find out where an electron is w/o disturbing it placed an ultimate limit on the accuracy of measuring the electron. Uncertainty is always built into the experiment.

this uncertainty principle is formally known as the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. It says that physical quantities come in pairs. There's always uncertainty about measuring either member of the pair. Momentum and position make up a Heisenberg pair.

In other words, the more accurate you try to measure the velocity of a particle... say an electron, then the less accurate you can determine the position of the particle. This is vice versa.

This is why, electrons don't orbit the nucleus of an atom like planets around the sun. Instead, it is more correct to think of electrons inhabiting "Probability shells" around the nucleus. You don't know exactly where it is within that shell... but you know that the electron inhabits that shell.

Schrodinger's Cat is a common explainer of how the uncertainty principle works. Like the episode Enigma in 1st season, Sam Carter goes:

A Cat is placed in a box. You have no windows so you can't see into this closed box. In the box is placed a vial of cyanide. This is linked to a detector which detects the radioactive decay of a material within the box. This material decays randomly however, and so there's a 50% chance it will decay, and a 50% chance it won't. If it decays it will release the cyanide, killing the cat. If it doesn't... the cat lives.

Basically... noone will know the state of the cat. There is UNCERTAINTY because the cat could either be dead or alive. YOU DO NOT KNOW WHICH OF THE 2 CASES IT IS! The only way to find out is if you open the box. Thus going back to the statement I said earlier... Results depend on the experiment you run. The cat is in a state of limbo... just like light. Light can be both a wave and a particle. It simply depends on the experiment you run.

My Quantum lecturer once said (or asked for that matter)... "Is the moon really there if you have never seen it before in your life?"

Ponder that for a minute (or for a long while)

Anyhow... not to bore any of you any more than you need to... this is a long read and I'm sorry if i've lost some of your interest... though I find quantum physics to be interesting

(I am currently doing a combined degree of Bachelor of Aerospace Engineering/Science... where I am majoring in Physics for my Science degree)

[Heaven]

just because mckay decided to call it zero point module doesnt necessarily mean that it draws energy from quantum fluctuations or "virtual particles" as we've come to know them from quantum theory.
quantum theory obviously does not apply for stargate as it doesnt cover extra dimensions which is the very basis of the idea of a ZPM.
the terms ZPE and vacuum energy are misleading because you immedialty think of quantum fluctuations. I think a more appropriate term would be "non-thermal dimensional energy" (from "farscape" ).
in "Origin" we hear Dr. Lee saying "this device draws its power directly from subspace.." - this will also qualify as non-thermal dimensional energy..
so vacuum energy can really mean alot of things in stargate..

[zintradi]

My Quantum lecturer once said (or asked for that matter)... "Is the moon really there if you have never seen it before in your life?"

Ponder that for a minute (or for a long while)

IF a tree falls in a forest and no one see's it, will the wacko environmentalist who was hugging it die?

[Dutch_Razor]

The thead was kinda long to read but: What is the Tollans understand something different out of Quantum Theory than we do?

Maybe he just assumed we used the same word for the same theory.