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airdish
July 11th, 2004, 04:17 PM
Every time I see something about the new show, that gate at Atlantis has the bottom 8th or so in the ground. So how is it still able to open a wormhole? I thought that if something was blocking the opening (iris of axis or stones) then it would not engage a wormhole. Any thoughts…

Brickster
July 11th, 2004, 04:30 PM
How about some common sence.

If the stargate works while its an 8th in the ground, then the stargate works while an 8th in the ground. Obviously the gate doesnt need the entire diameter of the gate to be uncovered for the event to occur. The "swish" effect of the energy release doesnt not take up the entire event horizon area, it mushrooms.

Ugly Pig
July 11th, 2004, 04:31 PM
Many a gate encountered on SG-1 has been the same way. I've been wondering about this myself. I guess we're not really supposed to notice. :p

airdish
July 11th, 2004, 04:36 PM
Obviously the gate doesnt need the entire diameter of the gate to be uncovered for the event to occur.

Do we know this for sure? And the gateway itself (blue water thing/ event horizon) takes up the whole gate. I could have swore that at sometime they talked about misaligning the iris even a few millimeters into the gate so it would be enough to stop a wormhole from opening???

Ugly Pig
July 11th, 2004, 04:38 PM
You're right, they did say that. Don't remember which episode off-hand, though.

Chevron_nine
July 11th, 2004, 05:43 PM
I think the gate has to be entirely covered to stop a wormhole from forming. I remember an episode where they were finding a way to dial the gate faster so a Goa'uld couldn't dial-in. If that was the case why wouldn't someone just stick their hand through the gate so a wormhole couldn't form?
Also it's possible the event horizon is actually only 2D, so it doesn't actually occupy any real "space", so it wouldn't matter if anything is covering the bottom 8th of the stargate because the event horizon doesn't really exist in our space, if you get what I'm saying.

If you look closely you'll even notice that the earth gate is covering the bottom. For some reason I always though there was a slit in the floor where the stargate is, but it turns out there isn't.

Mio
July 11th, 2004, 06:19 PM
The gate has protocols to make sure that underwater gates won't gush water through by sensing what it's submerged in.

It would be reasonable to assume that the ancients could design the gate to accomidate for a reasonable platform that it is mounted on.

KorbenDirewolf
July 11th, 2004, 06:25 PM
For some reason, nearly every stargate shown in the series that is free-standing is embedded into the floor or ground where it is. Maybe not quite as much as what the Atlantis one is, but to some degree.

Mio
July 11th, 2004, 06:29 PM
So long as the kawoosh doesn't hit the platform, it should be fine.

SGSlugger
July 11th, 2004, 07:25 PM
It's only if anything solid is stucking in and through the gate that the event horizon won't form. Then the gate is essentially "buried." The only thing the iris does is that it blocks incoming matter from forming.

airdish
July 11th, 2004, 10:01 PM
I remember an episode where they were finding a way to dial the gate faster so a Goa'uld could dial-in. If that was the case why wouldn't someone just stick their hand through the gate so a wormhole couldn't form?

maybe the sgc should get a large but movable stone block to use when need be.

Anubis
July 11th, 2004, 11:16 PM
They should have found a way to do faster dialing by now. They were working on this a while back

wilhelmganon
July 13th, 2004, 06:21 AM
The "rapid-dialing" sequence has been used once or twice ("Serpent's Song" comes to mind) - I'd assume that it's still an option to be used, but the SGC would be hesitant to constantly use it, for fear of wearing on mechanical components.

The military is very keen on using technology which is simple, tried, tested, and proven; essentially, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." The dialing mechanism has proven itself some 1,000 times - why change it if it's worked so well?

VirtualCLD
July 13th, 2004, 06:47 AM
A similar question, and I'm sure it's been brought up before, what type of matter does the event horizon "disolve" or vaporize (I think the apropriate term is sublimate) and what types do not? Basically, any human standing in the way of the splash back will be killed instantly, but the iris won't disapear durring splash back. I also remember a specific episode where the SGC shot a superheated LASER through the wormhole to melt the rock on the other side, allowing the splash back to form a bubble. When the rock was solid, the bubble coudn't form. However, we've also seen loose soil be "disolved" by the splash back to for a hole in the ground when the gate is on the side. Anyway, my question is, what determines if matter is disolved or not by the even horizon splash back? (My thought is: whatever is convenient for TPTB)

Mio
July 13th, 2004, 07:56 AM
A similar question, and I'm sure it's been brought up before, what type of matter does the event horizon "disolve" or vaporize (I think the apropriate term is sublimate) and what types do not? Basically, any human standing in the way of the splash back will be killed instantly, but the iris won't disapear durring splash back. I also remember a specific episode where the SGC shot a superheated LASER through the wormhole to melt the rock on the other side, allowing the splash back to form a bubble. When the rock was solid, the bubble coudn't form. However, we've also seen loose soil be "disolved" by the splash back to for a hole in the ground when the gate is on the side. Anyway, my question is, what determines if matter is disolved or not by the even horizon splash back? (My thought is: whatever is convenient for TPTB)
The iris is too close to let any destructive vortex particles form, if that's what you mean.

Stargate Agent
July 13th, 2004, 08:19 AM
The swish effect doesn't emcompass the whole gate! I have seen the Atlantis preview the part that is in the ground doesn't swish out. Only the middle of the gate does.

Besides maybe the Ancients made a SPECIAL gate that wasn't a perfect circle!! ahhaha

rustedborg
July 14th, 2004, 10:26 AM
There have been some great posts on this thread, but I think the best explanation is that the gate event horizon does not exist in our 3-dimentional world. When the iris is closed a gate still forms (the blue shimmer behind the iris and the fact that objects still travel to our side of the gate but cannot fully materialize. Granted, there has been some flawed physics regarding the gate in previous episodes (mainly so for good story purposes), but I don't think objects blocking the gate prevent a wormhole from forming ... just that it prevents matter from rematerializing on the other side of the gate.

Janus
July 14th, 2004, 10:38 AM
There have been some great posts on this thread, but I think the best explanation is that the gate event horizon does not exist in our 3-dimentional world. When the iris is closed a gate still forms (the blue shimmer behind the iris and the fact that objects still travel to our side of the gate but cannot fully materialize. Granted, there has been some flawed physics regarding the gate in previous episodes (mainly so for good story purposes), but I don't think objects blocking the gate prevent a wormhole from forming ... just that it prevents matter from rematerializing on the other side of the gate.

Sorry, but your theory doesn't work.
If the pubble is 2-D, they how can you step through it ?
Also, a wormhole is a manipulation of the space-time continuum, which is made out of at least four dimensions.
You can't just skip one dimension.

VirtualCLD
July 14th, 2004, 10:58 AM
Sorry, but your theory doesn't work.
If the pubble is 2-D, they how can you step through it ?
Also, a wormhole is a manipulation of the space-time continuum, which is made out of at least four dimensions.
You can't just skip one dimension.

I don't follow too well. Why can't you step through a 2-D surface? In fact a surface is defined as 2-D. Ever heard of flux, it's the measurement of the flow of something through a surface. A surface can exist in 3-Dimensions, but only have 2. If you took the surface of a sphere, for example, the sphere obviously exists in 3-D and the surface goes up, down, in and out. But when I say surface of a sphere, it's like peeling off the top layer of the sphere, only the layer is infinitesimally thin, so thin that it has no thinkness at all, it is 2-D. I know it sounds strange, but trust me, it is true. Therefore, it is more than possible to walk through a 2-D surface and that is exactly what the event horizon is, a 2-D surface barrier between real space and the "hyper"space that the wormhole exists in.

Larry The Chevron Guy
July 14th, 2004, 04:44 PM
I have a related question.

If the atlantis gate is covered up at the bottom, and the ring doesn't spin, what symbols are covered up at the bottom (can't be seen) as well? Or are there just less symbols on the atlantis gate?

Chevron_nine
July 14th, 2004, 07:06 PM
There are 36 places on the atlantis gate for symbols. A few of them an buried. If you draw lines straight through a symbol through the center, and connect it with the other side you will have 36 divisions. I tried in in paint shop pro. The old gate has 39. The new gate should still "spin" but only with lights. From the latest commercial you can see that each symbol will change position around the gate. ie. the ">." symbol will be in position 1 then will move to 2, then 3 etc. so we should still see all the symbols, except the three that should be missing.

Janus
July 15th, 2004, 10:12 AM
I don't follow too well. Why can't you step through a 2-D surface? In fact a surface is defined as 2-D. Ever heard of flux, it's the measurement of the flow of something through a surface. A surface can exist in 3-Dimensions, but only have 2. If you took the surface of a sphere, for example, the sphere obviously exists in 3-D and the surface goes up, down, in and out. But when I say surface of a sphere, it's like peeling off the top layer of the sphere, only the layer is infinitesimally thin, so thin that it has no thinkness at all, it is 2-D. I know it sounds strange, but trust me, it is true. Therefore, it is more than possible to walk through a 2-D surface and that is exactly what the event horizon is, a 2-D surface barrier between real space and the "hyper"space that the wormhole exists in.

You're wrong, an object must have three dimension at least.
Because, the first three dimension are:

1 Length
2 Hight
3 Thickness

And as far as your peeling off the top layer idea goes.
The third dimension might in very, very small but it's still there.
If there was not thickness, there would be no mass.
And mass = zero means no object.

The theory of the event horizon being 2-D is nonsense.
2-D objects are theoriatically and practially impossible.
It can not be done.
The Stargate can ignored and/or bent a lot of laws of physics, but not this one.

Mio
July 15th, 2004, 10:26 AM
There are 36 places on the atlantis gate for symbols. A few of them an buried. If you draw lines straight through a symbol through the center, and connect it with the other side you will have 36 divisions. I tried in in paint shop pro. The old gate has 39. The new gate should still "spin" but only with lights. From the latest commercial you can see that each symbol will change position around the gate. ie. the ">." symbol will be in position 1 then will move to 2, then 3 etc. so we should still see all the symbols, except the three that should be missing.
Since the new symbols are 'lightup' symbols, they didn't need to make 39 place holders. In fact, they really only needed 8/9.

VirtualCLD
July 15th, 2004, 11:47 AM
You're wrong, an object must have three dimension at least.
Because, the first three dimension are:

1 Length
2 Hight
3 Thickness

And as far as your peeling off the top layer idea goes.
The third dimension might in very, very small but it's still there.
If there was not thickness, there would be no mass.
And mass = zero means no object.

The theory of the event horizon being 2-D is nonsense.
2-D objects are theoriatically and practially impossible.
It can not be done.
The Stargate can ignored and/or bent a lot of laws of physics, but not this one.
I'm sorry, but from a mathematical standpoint you are wrong. A 2-D object existing in a 3-D space is not imposssible. There is a book, written by a mathemetician, that explains this in story format, unfortunately, I don't know the name of it. Take Calculus three and you will understand what I mean. I was using the "peeling off a layer" as a metaphor. I piece of paper has three dimensions because it has thickness, even though it is very thin. But when you talk about the surface of the paper, like a 2-D cartesian plane, you are talking about a 2-D object, even though it exists in 3-D. The theoretical or mathematical surface of a sphere, although it exists in 3-D space, has only two dimensions because it is [/I]infinitesimally[I] "thin." Think of a line connecting two points on a cartesian XY plane. The line is actually 1-D as it only has length, no thickness, no depth. When you draw a line with a pencil, obviously the real graphite leaves a 3-D trail that has length, depth, and width. A point defined is space has no dimensions!!! It is infinitesimally small and has no depth, length, or height.

I guess the thing is, the event horizon is not a real tangible object like you call it. It is a field or barrier and as a result, it is 2-D. Obviously no matter or object can exist in only 2-D.

I'm not going to argue back and forth over this, it's trivial really. If you believe you're right, then you're right. I believe I'm right because I've taken calculus, calculus-based physics, and electrical engineering courses involving this stuff, but it doesn't mean that I can't be wrong. Let's just assume that the technology is a lot more advanced than we are.

Janus
July 15th, 2004, 11:57 AM
Okay, but we STILL haven't figured out why/if the Gate works if it's embedded.

VirtualCLD
July 15th, 2004, 12:06 PM
Yeah, I don't quite get that either.

Janus
July 15th, 2004, 12:11 PM
Yeah, I don't quite get that either.

Then what did we have this whole argument for ?
Do ! :D

aeroe
July 15th, 2004, 01:17 PM
Then maybe it's not that complicated? There could be a tiny gap at the base of the gate where the event horizon forms, just enough to maintain a lock.


That flushing makes me wonder how many poor chaps were vaporized watching the lights activate on the gates.

Teal'c
July 16th, 2004, 03:50 PM
So I guess nobody here has watched this show called Stargate SG-1? It's similar to Atlantis, and in many episodes when they go offworld, the gate is "embedded" in a solid rock platform, with steps up to it...

[/extremesarcasm]

VirtualCLD
July 16th, 2004, 04:49 PM
So I guess nobody here has watched this show called Stargate SG-1? It's similar to Atlantis, and in many episodes when they go offworld, the gate is "embedded" in a solid rock platform, with steps up to it...

[/extremesarcasm]
Yeah, umm I never understood that either, but maybe aeore is right.

airdish
July 16th, 2004, 06:50 PM
So I guess nobody here has watched this show called Stargate SG-1? It's similar to Atlantis, and in many episodes when they go offworld, the gate is "embedded" in a solid rock platform, with steps up to it...

[/extremesarcasm]

ya but it always seems to have the steps and then like flanges to hold teh gate upright. anyway...

airdish
July 16th, 2004, 09:08 PM
ok, I just saw the new show. And I must say that it really bugs me that the gate is embedded. Maybe I didn't pick up on it with Stargate, but every time they went through the gate I wanted to yell at the TV that the gate shouldn't open. Is that just me?

Janus
July 17th, 2004, 01:14 AM
ok, I just saw the new show. And I must say that it really bugs me that the gate is embedded. Maybe I didn't pick up on it with Stargate, but every time they went through the gate I wanted to yell at the TV that the gate shouldn't open. Is that just me?

Have you tried decafe ?

Mio
July 17th, 2004, 04:19 AM
ok, I just saw the new show. And I must say that it really bugs me that the gate is embedded. Maybe I didn't pick up on it with Stargate, but every time they went through the gate I wanted to yell at the TV that the gate shouldn't open. Is that just me?
Every gate in the universe has the base at the same level....plus the gate probably will move the matter around the event horizon to get it to reform. There's really no reason to be angry. Every other stargate is :)

puddlejumper747
July 17th, 2004, 07:18 AM
Well if the event horizon is 2-D (which makes sense, but I won't argue with anyone), then it occupies no real space. So shouldn't a wormhole always form, whether or not an oblect of any size is blocking it? How can burying the gate stop a 2-D wormhole from forming - or does it only act like an iris? (I don't know - maybe just a built-in safety feature on the gate?)

And what if the puddle jumper enters a space-gate to close to the bottom half? :D

Yu Huang Shang Ti
July 18th, 2004, 02:52 AM
A 2-D object still occupies space, in the two dimensions that it forms in. If a gate is "buried" (all the space on the inside taken up by matter), then there's still no room for the wormhole to form. We know that wormholes don't form because the iris was recalibrated to "bury" the Earth gate when Teal'c was trapped in it; if the gate could still activate then the next incoming wormhole would haved wiped out Teal's pattern, whether anyone could get through or not.

Of course there's no definitive answers to "how much is too much?" when it comes to the point of burial, but we can at least extrapolate from all the embedded gates that it's somewhere above ~15% of the area consumed.

As for bumping into the bottom half -- I've been waiting for someone to trip on a slightly misplaced platform (or step into the air just above a lower one) for some time now. It's gotta happen one of these days...

aaobuttons
July 18th, 2004, 03:01 AM
How about we say it works because the Ancients built the Stargates and they are really really smart and they found a way to make it work. We will probably never understand it because we are stupid humans from earth who can't comprehend their math and we should just be happy to have the technology.

ImportRacer
July 18th, 2004, 06:41 AM
well i think the only way the gate wont work is if there is something actually blocking the event horizon from forming (as in something inside the ring...) because we have seen the gate laying on the ground and when it was activiated it created a hole in the ground... as long as nothing is obstructing the event horizon the gate works...