Wraith contradiction?

[DarkQuee1]

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There seems to be a contradiction in what we've been told about the Ancients and the Wraith. Toward the end of last season and into this season, we're told that the Wraith evolved from some combination of human and bug DNA, that happened on a world seeded by the Ancients (which makes the Ancients pretty unobservant: even if evolution in regard to the bugs was given a big boost by the combination, it still should have taken the Wraith a long time to develop a spacefaring civilization. No one noticed??).

But the hologram in The Rising tells us that the Ancients seeded various worlds and everything was peachy keen, until one dark and stormy night, the Ancients essentially stumbled across a world where a "dark enemy slept" (if I remember the words correctly) and that for the first time, they had met a power as advanced as their own (which I don't understand, since these guys came from Earth--what about the Asgard, Nox and Furlings? But heck, that's another topic). This dialogue says that the Wraith were *not* evolved on a world that the Ancients had already been on and seeded, but that the Ancients, while exploring, came across an already highly-evolved, spacefaring race--on a world they had *not* visited before--and conflict erupted.

Maybe I snoozed through it (not hard to do with either Stargate these days), but I don't remember any attempt to reconcile these two totally different versions of Ancient-Wraith relations. In fact, I don't ever remember the hologram version being referenced again. Did TPTB simply forget about it?

J.

[Lightsabre]

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There seems to be a contradiction in what we've been told about the Ancients and the Wraith. Toward the end of last season and into this season, we're told that the Wraith evolved from some combination of human and bug DNA, that happened on a world seeded by the Ancients (which makes the Ancients pretty unobservant: even if evolution in regard to the bugs was given a big boost by the combination, it still should have taken the Wraith a long time to develop a spacefaring civilization. No one noticed??).

But the hologram in The Rising tells us that the Ancients seeded various worlds and everything was peachy keen, until one dark and stormy night, the Ancients essentially stumbled across a world where a "dark enemy slept" (if I remember the words correctly) and that for the first time, they had met a power as advanced as their own (which I don't understand, since these guys came from Earth--what about the Asgard, Nox and Furlings? But heck, that's another topic). This dialogue says that the Wraith were *not* evolved on a world that the Ancients had already been on and seeded, but that the Ancients, while exploring, came across an already highly-evolved, spacefaring race--on a world they had *not* visited before--and conflict erupted.

Maybe I snoozed through it (not hard to do with either Stargate these days), but I don't remember any attempt to reconcile these two totally different versions of Ancient-Wraith relations. In fact, I don't ever remember the hologram version being referenced again. Did TPTB simply forget about it?

J.

They could have seeded from Space, never actually having been there.
FUrther, I don't think they say they discovered the world, just the enemy.
They could have not been back for millions of years.

[SmallTimePerson]

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There seems to be a contradiction in what we've been told about the Ancients and the Wraith. Toward the end of last season and into this season, we're told that the Wraith evolved from some combination of human and bug DNA, that happened on a world seeded by the Ancients (which makes the Ancients pretty unobservant: even if evolution in regard to the bugs was given a big boost by the combination, it still should have taken the Wraith a long time to develop a spacefaring civilization. No one noticed??).

But the hologram in The Rising tells us that the Ancients seeded various worlds and everything was peachy keen, until one dark and stormy night, the Ancients essentially stumbled across a world where a "dark enemy slept" (if I remember the words correctly) and that for the first time, they had met a power as advanced as their own (which I don't understand, since these guys came from Earth--what about the Asgard, Nox and Furlings? But heck, that's another topic). This dialogue says that the Wraith were *not* evolved on a world that the Ancients had already been on and seeded, but that the Ancients, while exploring, came across an already highly-evolved, spacefaring race--on a world they had *not* visited before--and conflict erupted.

Maybe I snoozed through it (not hard to do with either Stargate these days), but I don't remember any attempt to reconcile these two totally different versions of Ancient-Wraith relations. In fact, I don't ever remember the hologram version being referenced again. Did TPTB simply forget about it?

J.

well perhaps the ancients, like lightsabre said went there maybe 2 million years ago then came back only 10100 years ag o (remember the war lasted 100 years (i think)).
and ur advanced civilization question, the wraith tech rivaled the ancients own, the asgard and co weren't very advanced several million years ago, when the ancients met them.

[Calicto]

There has been attempt for reconcillation. McKay in the one of the episode believed that the Wraith were created by the Ancients and made a bet with Beckett about it. Also, Wraith is derived from Ancient language.

I have two explanations for you.

1. Let's take the scenario the two before me have set up. They get some type of energy source coming from a planet. They go to the planet and are captured, because well, they're Ancients - nothing to fear, aite?.

They underestimate the Wraith's psychic abilities and their hive mind capabilities. The Wraith attain some of this Ancient knowledge and begin building fleets.

Either that, or some clueless Ancient was working on the Wraith creation (to create a perfect body for ascension). The Wraith uses his psychic abilities to gain information..etc. The other ancients dont know about this and find out later.

2. They lied. They are perfectly capable.

[pleed]

It sounds like plot holes, but maybe the Ancients are trying to cover up the fact that they created the Wraith on prupose.

[CalmStorm]

I've wondered about that as well.

Hopefully we will learn more this season.

It's almost unreal that this great threat of a force, with technology that rivaled the ancients just sprung up, completely un-noticed. Beckett's theory on the bug evolving into the wraith is just that.....a theory, very plausible, but not exactly proven. Perhaps I missed it, but I'm surprised no one from the expedition has brought up that point in Beckett's theory.....that this immense threat evolved right under the ancients' noses, built fleets of ships, ravaged planets, and rivaled their own technology without anyone catching on.......they had to sustain themselves somehow while doing all this, and no one noticed?

[Stevo]

sounds like the ancients were just covering it up

[Eoin]

The way i see it is....
The ancients went to pegasus several million years ago...started seeding life on planets...that task seems like a task that will take some time, even for the ancients... so their after seeding 100% of pegasus in a few million years...but withou them knowing the first planet they seeded was the homeworld of the iratus bug...which the DNA thing happened with the humans the ancients seeded there...and walla we have the wraith..who have advanced to space travel since the ancients were there...the ancients are curious to meet one of the accident species...who then does some fancy mind trick and gets knowledge outta the ancients without the ancients actually knowing....the ancients decide to leave it alone as the new species has no power to match the ancients power...then the wraith numbers start to increase at an alarming rate...again without the ancients knowing...they start to develope hive ships and tens of thousands of ships...massively out numbering the ancients...the wraith travel to other worlds culling all the humans...then they cull a world where the ancients are on their way to...and walla the ancients have met an enemy with superiour numbers with allot of ships...even though the ancients are still allot more advanced than the wraith...the wraith takes out ancients ships with lets say 50ships to 1 ship...and then the war begins....

O.K thats my brief understanding of the wraith origins...feel free to brake down my post and change it to whatever you want
Im just guessing half my way through that post..but i have also pieced together info from the show and wrote it sown as i see it

[jash]

All life was created by the Ori. It says so in the book of origin. lol

[Eoin]

All life was created by the Ori. It says so in the book of origin. lol

And there was me thinking that everything was an accident lol
j/k btw

[SmallTimePerson]

well i think that the ancients seeded life in the PG but they took their time about it. The wraith planet was one of the first. the iratus bug was made on that planet along with some humans. The bug fed upon the humans, that the ancients didn't know about, mutated into wraith over a few thousand years, then the wraith started using the stargate. When the ancients visited the wraith planet they were confused, the planet was capable of holding life, yet there were no humans or humanoids. They set up a science lab and had a couple of spaceships there that occasionally went out and around the planet. One dark and stormy night the wraith attacked the ancients (by this time the wraith were fairly primitive, say just under our level of society, this is about 11000 years ago). and stole their tech. Instead of using this tech the wraith decided to reverse engineer several copies of their own. From the tech they got inter-stellar hyperdrive, along with knowledge of how to build statis chambers.After their first success in a space ship they concentrated their efforts on making their own, based on the ancient tech, the darts were the first out of production, then came the carrier, supply and hive ships. They made many more, but didn't venture far. When the ancients came back to see what happened the wraith discovered that their kind once used the stargate to feed, so they ate the ancients, culled a few planets, built up their numbers and fleet and attacked the ancients, the story ends 10100 years ago.

[DarkQuee1]

Some interesting ideas, but I'm afraid I still see some plot holes--unless we assume the hologram was not telling the truth. The way the hologram was worded, it definitely sounds as if they stumbled across the Wraith in some place they had been before. There's no indication it was a planet they had seeded and were just checking up on. There seems to be no reason why the hologram would not just say that, "One day, returning to a world we had visited many eons ago, we discovered no human life but instead a dark enemy blah blah blah." Wording it this way would not suggest that they were responsible for creating the Wraith in and of itself, so there's no reason *not* to say it that way.

As for the tech: we have seen that the Wraith have certain telepathic communication, but it appears limited. It does not seem as if they can hold entire non-verbal conversations. And we have not seen at all that they can read non-Wraith minds (or that the Ancients could not block any such attempts). Besides, even if they could, if they were at a primitive level, reading the Ancients minds wouldn't help them: not only wouldn't they understand the tech (and how many of us walk around thinking about how to actually *make* our tech? Picking up a thought that a TV exists would not help in making one.), but they also would not have the ability to backwards engineer anything.

BTW, hologram was only made about 10,000 years ago. By then, the Ancients had already been allied with the Asgard, the Nox and the Furlings, because all that returned to Earth was the last remnant of them. So, that bit of dialogue still doesn't make any sense. (Besides, we were told that the Wraith could *not* equal the Ancients in tech; they just outnumbered them.)

It just seems to me that TPTB had not had the Wraith backstory completely fleshed out at the beginning, or they changed their minds part-way through the first season, or they forgot what they had originally said.

[mgbland]

Sometimes, pilots contradict what happens later in the series.

I've always wondered that if the Ancients seeded the galaxy several million years ago with humans, why the humans aren't too different from them.

We do have a "second evolution" of their race. But some of the humans still retain the ancient gene.

[DarkQuee1]

Sometimes, pilots contradict what happens later in the series.

I've always wondered that if the Ancients seeded the galaxy several million years ago with humans, why the humans aren't too different from them.

We do have a "second evolution" of their race. But some of the humans still retain the ancient gene.

True about the pilots. But, for the sake of consistency and avoiding breaking the suspension of disbelief, the writers should make some effort to reconcile the two versions, especially as the hologram was an important part of The Rising. When they don't, it always makes me wonder if they even recognize the problem.

I'm with you on the humans thing: after all these millions of years, the humans on those worlds should have all physically diverged and changed. Here on Earth, we may be closer to the Ancients because I suspect that there was intermingling 10,000 years ago, when they returned. But the seeded humans should have experienced serious changes over that amount of time. Look how much the human/primate line has changed in considerably less time.

[mgbland]

True about the pilots. But, for the sake of consistency and avoiding breaking the suspension of disbelief, the writers should make some effort to reconcile the two versions, especially as the hologram was an important part of The Rising. When they don't, it always makes me wonder if they even recognize the problem.

I'm with you on the humans thing: after all these millions of years, the humans on those worlds should have all physically diverged and changed. Here on Earth, we may be closer to the Ancients because I suspect that there was intermingling 10,000 years ago, when they returned. But the seeded humans should have experienced serious changes over that amount of time. Look how much the human/primate line has changed in considerably less time.

I don't understand why the humans of the pegasus don't have the ancient gene. Did the ancients come up with the gene in the 100 years they were under seige and at the bottom of the ocean?

The writers will have to do some fancy thinking to resolve the inconsistancies. But if the humans were left for dead on the planet several million years ago, perhaps they didn't realize the connection when they first discovered them. OR, the hologram girl lied in the message. Actually, as unsavory as lying is, it's probably the simplest explanation. Anyone that rediscovered the city wouldn't have any reason to disbelieve them. I don't remember if they found anything about the bug/wraith connection in the ancient database.