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NowIWillDestroyAbydos
September 14th, 2005, 05:14 PM
I will never get into Stargate: Horizon, and I'll follow it to only a complete minimum.

So I'm wondering, how many of you will never get into Stargate: Horizon?

SierraGulf1
September 14th, 2005, 05:19 PM
Alas, I'm afraid I'm qutie into it. What can I say?

Major Tyler
September 14th, 2005, 05:26 PM
I will never get into Stargate: Horizon, and I'll follow it to only a complete minimum.

So I'm wondering, how many of you will never get into Stargate: Horizon?If you don't like Horizon, make suggestions about how it could improve rather than just being negative and mean-spirited. If you're only going to follow Stargate: Horizon "to a complete minimum," why bother making a post about it at all?! :mad:

With that said, to answer your question I probably won't get into Horizon because I really dislike the script format. I can't get lost in the narrative the way the story is presented. The story is intriguing, but I just can't get past the utilitarian, unemotional delivery provided by a script. My suggestion for improvement would be a more traditional novel writing style.

Erik Pasternak
September 14th, 2005, 05:51 PM
Yeah, we appreciate suggestions! I'd also like to know WHY you'll never get into it, NowIWillDestroyAbydos.

I'd glad you like the show, SierraGulf1!

MT, I understand your comments, but there are several reasons why we write in script format. First, it is easier. I don't know if we'd be able to crank out twenty-four episodes a year if we wrote in novel form. Second, several of our writing staff (not me though; I'm the odd man out) are aspiring screenwriters and this is an excellent opportunity to prepare. :)

Major Tyler
September 14th, 2005, 06:00 PM
Second, several of our writing staff (not me though; I'm the odd man out) are aspiring screenwriters and this is an excellent opportunity to prepare. :)One of my good buddies is an Electronic Media & Film major, and he's always writing scripts and doing revisions. I usually go to his film screening and he definitely gets better with every script he writes.

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
September 14th, 2005, 06:00 PM
Damn, I knew this was going to blow up in my face. :o
I started this thread because I asked a question in the Ask something to the person below you (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=12043) thread.
I asked (http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost.php?p=4504845&postcount=3981)

Are you following Stargate: Horizon?
I'll never get in to it.
And I got this response (http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost.php?p=4504853&postcount=3982)

nope!

All I'm wondering is what people are not following Horizon?

And Major Tyler I never said I didn't like Horizon.

Alex Rubit
September 14th, 2005, 06:50 PM
With that said, to answer your question I probably won't get into Horizon because I really dislike the script format. I can't get lost in the narrative the way the story is presented. The story is intriguing, but I just can't get past the utilitarian, unemotional delivery provided by a script. My suggestion for improvement would be a more traditional novel writing style.

Yeah, I can see how it can take some getting used to. But I've said before, over the course of the first half of the season, I believe the way the episodes are written has improved. Not with regard to the stories themselves, but with regard to writing the scripts for a general audience.

The Horizon scripts are written with more detail than you'd normally write the scripts, including references to how a character is feeling, underlining emotions, or specifying reactions. Those are all things you'd hardly find in shooting scripts for weekly television shows, and often I'll say about a first draft - which is already really good - that it needs more detail.

I kind of reacted to the word "unemotional." I believe there are quite some emotional moments in some of the episodes, because of the way they're written. I think the season finale had it's share of emotional moments. We want to give the readers the same feel they'd have if they'd watch the episodes on television, meaning they should have say the same dramatic impact. The way the first couple of episodes are written, isn't anywhere near to what the later and the upcoming episodes are like. ;)

Major Tyler
September 14th, 2005, 07:30 PM
I kind of reacted to the word "unemotional." I believe there are quite some emotional moments in some of the episodes, because of the way they're written. I think the season finale had it's share of emotional moments. We want to give the readers the same feel they'd have if they'd watch the episodes on television, meaning they should have say the same dramatic impact. The way the first couple of episodes are written, isn't anywhere near to what the later and the upcoming episodes are like. ;)I'm sorry if my word choice gave you the wrong impression...maybe "unpoetic" or "non-prose" would have been better. I've only read the first couple episodes, so I'm not really in a position to rate how the later episodes have been written. Perhaps I will try to look past the script in the hopes that the format will become more compatible with what I like reading.

ShadowMaat
September 14th, 2005, 07:42 PM
Personally, I can't stand the virtual cast. I don't think there's a person on it that I'd want to see onscreen, nevermind picturing them inside my head acting out the stories!

But then, I tend to have a severe aversion to casts which are topheavy with known names from other shows. Might make it easier for people to picture them, but it also makes it harder (IMO) for people to picture them as the characters they're supposed to be instead of as the characters they're familiar with on TV.

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
September 14th, 2005, 07:47 PM
Personally, I can't stand the virtual cast. I don't think there's a person on it that I'd want to see onscreen, nevermind picturing them inside my head acting out the stories!

But then, I tend to have a severe aversion to casts which are topheavy with known names from other shows. Might make it easier for people to picture them, but it also makes it harder (IMO) for people to picture them as the characters they're supposed to be instead of as the characters they're familiar with on TV.
Ha! Ha! Someone who kind of agrees with me.

Erik Pasternak
September 14th, 2005, 07:50 PM
Personally, I can't stand the virtual cast. I don't think there's a person on it that I'd want to see onscreen, nevermind picturing them inside my head acting out the stories!

But then, I tend to have a severe aversion to casts which are topheavy with known names from other shows. Might make it easier for people to picture them, but it also makes it harder (IMO) for people to picture them as the characters they're supposed to be instead of as the characters they're familiar with on TV.
Honestly, I can never picture those actors as the characters. My brain just makes up people to fill those shoes.

Major Tyler
September 14th, 2005, 07:56 PM
Honestly, I can never picture those actors as the characters. My brain just makes up people to fill those shoes.I agree. It's nice to have a template to work with, but the characters have evolved in my head. The first instance was when I was trying to imprint Browder's voice onto Chase...it just didn't work, LOL. :)

Osiris-RA
September 14th, 2005, 08:18 PM
With that said, to answer your question I probably won't get into Horizon because I really dislike the script format. I can't get lost in the narrative the way the story is presented. The story is intriguing, but I just can't get past the utilitarian, unemotional delivery provided by a script. My suggestion for improvement would be a more traditional novel writing style.

Well, a scripts format isn't always unemotional. It depends on who's writing it and who they're trying to pander to. In screenwriting, being novelistic with your script is discouraged because you're trying to tell the skeleton of the story to a director or actor without forcing them to be exactly the way you want. Of course, usually when I start writing, I tend to be kind of creative so I can see the picture i'm painting better, then I water it down to the way who ever I'm showing it to wants it. If you read the Alien or Mission Impossible scripts, you'll find a very vibrant way of writing and very imaginative way of writing that sucks you into a story. You can tell if a script is relly well done if you've never even seen it on screen before and you read it, and you can see and hear everything on paper vividly. You'll be reading it and then you'll begin to see what's happening, hear sounds, see the characters. It's very weird actually, kinda freaky, but it's very cool. If you already have actors in mind the way SGH does, It's even better writing it if you already know the people who are portraying the characters from other things because you'll be hearing thier voices and see thier mannerisms, etc etc. How the actor would see the character though is bound to be different than you vision of course.

But anyway, I guess some people like reading them and some don't. I'm really a rather finicky reader of scripts but I think the SGH scripts have been written very expressivley. Especially some coming up for S2. :)

Alex Rubit
September 14th, 2005, 08:32 PM
Personally, I can't stand the virtual cast. I don't think there's a person on it that I'd want to see onscreen, nevermind picturing them inside my head acting out the stories!

But then, I tend to have a severe aversion to casts which are topheavy with known names from other shows. Might make it easier for people to picture them, but it also makes it harder (IMO) for people to picture them as the characters they're supposed to be instead of as the characters they're familiar with on TV.

Well, with regard to that, we just don't have another choice than to "cast" actors which have appeared on other shows. If you're casting a new television show, you'll have auditions with hundreds of actors reading the parts, and you'd naturally go for fresh faces (in most of the cases); that's the normal process. Unfortunately we don't have that kind of luxury, so we can only cast people who we know.

I don't think anyone will picture the actors as any other characters they have actually played, because one thing I can't stand is type-casting. Unfortunately it happens in the actual business every once and a while. Not when I have something to say, even if so far it's only virtual. ;)

These characters are in fact very, very different from the characters I've seen the actors play, and their purposely different. Based on what I've seen, I have the confidence that if this were actually on TV these guys could pull it off. Each of them are great actors. But let's say Colonel Grant is definitely not Jack Bauer (Kiefer's character on 24).

Granted, maybe it's difficult for some to picture specific people for specific characters. But no one's forcing anyone to do that. Picture them the way you prefer. But if I'd be doing this for television, and could have anyone I like, those would be the choices. Although I do guess we would need an alternative for Ben, since he ended up actually having a major role in the Stargate universe.

Alex Rubit
September 14th, 2005, 08:41 PM
Well, a scripts format isn't always unemotional. It depends on who's writing it and who they're trying to pander to. In screenwriting, being novelistic with your script is discouraged because you're trying to tell the skeleton of the story to a director or actor without forcing them to be exactly the way you want. Of course, usually when I start writing, I tend to be kind of creative so I can see the picture i'm painting better, then I water it down to the way who ever I'm showing it to wants it. If you read the Alien or Mission Impossible scripts, you'll find a very vibrant way of writing and very imaginative way of writing that sucks you into a story. You can tell if a script is relly well done if you've never even seen it on screen before and you read it, and you can see and hear everything on paper vividly. You'll be reading it and then you'll begin to see what's happening, hear sounds, see the characters. It's very weird actually, kinda freaky, but it's very cool. If you already have actors in mind the way SGH does, It's even better writing it if you already know the people who are portraying the characters from other things because you'll be hearing thier voices and see thier mannerisms, etc etc. How the actor would see the character though is bound to be different than you vision of course.

But anyway, I guess some people like reading them and some don't. I'm really a rather finicky reader of scripts but I think the SGH scripts have been written very expressivley. Especially some coming up for S2. :)

That's a great way of putting it. ;)

Scripts can in general be very entertaining to read. To bring up a little example, there's an Oscar for "Best Screenplay." That award has nothing to do with the movie itself. It's an award for something most people haven't and probably will never see. It's for the script, and solely for the way it's written. In a lot of the cases "Best Picture" might go to another movie.

And, yeah, especially the Season Two scripts have...a nice way of being written. What can I say? Just took us a whole season to figure out what works best for us, but it sure is working now.

PrimalAscended
September 15th, 2005, 07:42 AM
Thought I'd pitch in with my 2 pence worth.

Sorry, but I gotta agree with Abydos, I just tried reading the first fic "Awakening" and just couldn't get into it at all. The villains seemed "familiar" as did their name, but hey there are only some many stories to tell (or so I hear). Like ShadowMaat I'm not much for the "cast", because my imagination wants to fill in my own version of the characters but that's just me.

What really niggled in my brain though was the terms the writers are using in realtion to the stories and the writers......."virtual series", "virtual cast", there being an "executive producer" etc. The stories are fanfiction at the end of the day and it just seems that the writers are trying to elevate it to a level it hasn't achieved and distancing it from its fanfiction roots. Don't get me wrong I've read some great fanfics and love trawling the fanfic sites for a good read :)

People behind Horizon, keep up with what you're doing as you are obviously entertaining alot of people in the GateVerse but sadly you aren't doing it for me. I applaud your hard work and creativity though, as it must be extremely time consuming (and frustrating getting comments like mine).Good luck with the "series", I'll pop back now and again and maybe I'll get into it someday. :)

Simonthefurling
September 15th, 2005, 09:07 AM
I personally am not into Stargate Horizon. I admirer what your doing with it, its just not something I can get into. Bearing in mind your writing roughly episodes as long as an average SG1 episode, to watch that takes 42 minutes, but to read its basically as long as a small book. However I acknowledge this couldnt be changed without seriously just making a string of fan fiction, so fair enough. It's just a time issue I have wearby sitting at my computer for hours on end isnt A) Something i have the time for B ) Healthy.

However my bigger niggle is the script format. I know you guys are budding writers and what have you but, its just not something thats good to read in my opinion. The script format is not for reading, its for being transferred into a tv show, which isnt happening here. Granted you do add extra detail but still, the point is still a fair one in my opinion. Perhaps you could try getting a budding author to pen an episode, see what the fans reactions are on the forums, if they like it perhaps you could include 2-4 novel esc episodes a season. It'l still be advancing the storyline just like a script would.

Now, in reply to Primal Ascended post I do sort of agree. Not with his examples though, at the end of the day you are the next level of FF, so virtual series is ok, the virtual cast can help some readers, and the executive producer is just a staff position. However along Primals lines comes my point. Having 'air dates' is a little over the top in my opinion, when really your what, uploading the scripts onto a website?

But anyway, from what i read on the website got me actual kind of excited about SGH, its just the way its delivered that put me off. Anyhow, i only posted that because there was a thread for it. Had there not have been i assure you i would leave you to it. :)

~Simon

Alex Rubit
September 15th, 2005, 09:21 AM
Thought I'd pitch in with my 2 pence worth.

Sorry, but I gotta agree with Abydos, I just tried reading the first fic "Awakening" and just couldn't get into it at all. The villains seemed "familiar" as did their name, but hey there are only some many stories to tell (or so I hear). Like ShadowMaat I'm not much for the "cast", because my imagination wants to fill in my own version of the characters but that's just me.

What really niggled in my brain though was the terms the writers are using in realtion to the stories and the writers......."virtual series", "virtual cast", there being an "executive producer" etc. The stories are fanfiction at the end of the day and it just seems that the writers are trying to elevate it to a level it hasn't achieved and distancing it from its fanfiction roots. Don't get me wrong I've read some great fanfics and love trawling the fanfic sites for a good read :)

I'm not so sure if I agree with that. Not to say that there's anything wrong with fan fiction, but I've never considered Horizon to be that. I've never written any fan fiction, and I'm pretty sure I never will. Again, there's no problem with it, it's just something I've never considered, or had any interest in doing. The things I write outside of Horizon are scripts, which I hope to produce and shoot eventually.

The term "virtual series" is not something we've invented. There's a ton of virtual series out there; most of them have an official "virtual cast." Using the term "executive producer" is nothing uncommon either, because, to be honest, that's exactly what I do on this series. What probably doesn't get through to the outside (and there's no reason why it should) is that this is a ton of hard work, and goes non-stop. Writing is only part of my job. You actually produce this show as you'd produce a television show or a movie, the difference is you don't shoot it; it's my responsibility to overlook everything from the development of the stories, the CG designs, the music, the promo pictures, or any other extras. In addition to that you're always on a tight schedule. For me, this is just like another job; it's not just something I do every now and then when feel like it. Can't remember the last time I had a day of, because, as I said, we're on a schedule. Right now we have six episodes in production; four in script development stage, one is in pre-production (outline stage), another is in post-production (some final revisions). In addition to that we've got several 3D designs in the works, all in various stages; the uniforms are currently being designed as well. We hope to soon also have another musical theme, once our composer will become available. It's a huge production for a virtual series. Very hectic, at times stressful, but I love every second of it!


People behind Horizon, keep up with what you're doing as you are obviously entertaining alot of people in the GateVerse but sadly you aren't doing it for me. I applaud your hard work and creativity though, as it must be extremely time consuming (and frustrating getting comments like mine).Good luck with the "series", I'll pop back now and again and maybe I'll get into it someday. :)

If you want my advice, check out the later episodes if you want to truly get an idea of what Horizon is like. I don't want to get started with bringing up all the points that I criticize with regard to the pilot (and I love criticizing my own work), but it's nowhere near of what I'd consider some of the best episodes of the season. I'd recommend the final seven, starting with "The Enoly." You'll find a new alien species, which is very different from what we've previously encountered. As is their name, which is the same as the episode title. They'll play a big role in Season Two, which I, in fact, consider the real start of the series. Season One was the run through; we're just getting started now.

So, to bottom line it, Horizon is not considered fan fiction; it's a virtual series. We all agreed on that early on, which is why it has its seperate forum section, and is not part of the fan-fic folder. Again, not saying that there's anything wrong with fan-fic. There's just too big a difference between fan-fic and a virtual series production.

Alex Rubit
September 15th, 2005, 09:34 AM
Perhaps you could try getting a budding author to pen an episode, see what the fans reactions are on the forums, if they like it perhaps you could include 2-4 novel esc episodes a season. It'l still be advancing the storyline just like a script would.

Novels within the season is very unlikely to happen. However, I have to say I have considered something like this. But instead of having the story of the novel set within the season itself, it would be taking place between two seasons, and kind of serve as a prequel for the upcoming season.

But to be perfectly honest, if something like this were ever to happen, I'd like to achieve some kind of deal with MGM, and actually sell those novels. ;)

ShadowMaat
September 15th, 2005, 02:56 PM
Well, personally, I tend to agree with Primal and Simon. It's one thing to play around with the whole "virtual series" thing, but the lengths that are taken to try and pretend this is a real series in all ways except the fact that is isn't on the air... it comes across as highly pretentious to me. Whether you're willing to admit it or not, it IS fanfic and putting it in script format doesn't change that. I wrote a fanscript for a show once. It was challenging and tricky and very sloppily done, and I learned a lot from the many MANY mistakes I made. But I still know that it's ONLY a "fancy" fic and that it would never make it past any serious producer's slush pile.

As far as I can tell, no one on the staff is a professional writer (or professional producer, director, whatever). Have any of you even studied screenwriting beyond flipping through a book or two? Has anyone had any other work professionally published in a "real" media that isn't a fan-run zine or website?

And while it might be fun to think that "maybe someday" Horizon can go beyond being a virtual series, to imply however lightly that it might some day be a real thing is sheer lunacy. It's a FAN SERIES. Plain and simple. At best it's a great way to show show your enthusiasm and creativity. At worst, it's copyright infringement. Horizon will NEVER be anything more than a virtual series and no matter how many bells and whistles get added to the site/series, that isn't going to change.

Maybe some day if one or two of you are "good enough" (however Hollywood chooses to define that) and if you try hard enough and keep studying and come up with some good, original ideas, then maybe you'll go on to work in TV. And if you're really, truly exceptional and determined, you could wind up with your own series, but that show will NOT be Horizon and I'm 99% sure it won't be any other Stargate series, either. If you choose, at that time, to do a Stargate knock-off and if the studio and network choose to allow it, then that's your perogative. But if you think the cries of plagiarism are loud now, be prepared for them to be twice as loud when your show comes out. ;)

I don't find the stories compelling. Yes, there's the whole "there are only five real stories to be done" thing, but what I've seen is familiar and I don't feel that enough has been done to make it truly original. I don't like it when the real producers of Stargate slack off and dish out rehashed material and I don't like to see it in fics, either.

I don't find the characters engaging, even disregarding the cast. I can't identify with any of them and I just don't find myself drawn in to their situations. I just don't care what happens to them, and that's an important factor to me in ANY story, whether it's on TV, in a book, or on my computer screen. I want to be able to root for the good guys. Or the bad guys. Or ANY guys/gals/creatures.

Sorry, but I'm giving Horizon a pass.

Alex Rubit
September 15th, 2005, 03:38 PM
Well, personally, I tend to agree with Primal and Simon. It's one thing to play around with the whole "virtual series" thing, but the lengths that are taken to try and pretend this is a real series in all ways except the fact that is isn't on the air... it comes across as highly pretentious to me. Whether you're willing to admit it or not, it IS fanfic and putting it in script format doesn't change that. I wrote a fanscript for a show once. It was challenging and tricky and very sloppily done, and I learned a lot from the many MANY mistakes I made. But I still know that it's ONLY a "fancy" fic and that it would never make it past any serious producer's slush pile.

Writing the episodes is challenging, tricky, but definitely not sloppily done. And, yes, you learn from every script you write, and from every mistake you make.


As far as I can tell, no one on the staff is a professional writer (or professional producer, director, whatever). Have any of you even studied screenwriting beyond flipping through a book or two? Has anyone had any other work professionally published in a "real" media that isn't a fan-run zine or website?

I've recently become involved with a voluntary project that writes, shoots, and produces little shows for a local television station around here. The gentlemen running that project has several contacts in Hollywood actually. I've not studied screenwriting in college, but then again that applies to a lot of professional writers/producers.

Haven't flipped through any screenwriting books. But I've read a tone of them. Some of which several times.


And while it might be fun to think that "maybe someday" Horizon can go beyond being a virtual series, to imply however lightly that it might some day be a real thing is sheer lunacy. It's a FAN SERIES. Plain and simple. At best it's a great way to show show your enthusiasm and creativity. At worst, it's copyright infringement. Horizon will NEVER be anything more than a virtual series and no matter how many bells and whistles get added to the site/series, that isn't going to change.

I think it's important to set one thing straight. Stargate: Horizon is NOT intended to be a television series. It's a virtual series, and that's how it will continue for, hopefully, several seasons. None of us writers/producers of the show have ever stated anything else.

I agree with what Joe Mallozzi said in his Q&A thread, if someone is going to create another spin off, it will be Brad Wright & Robert C. Cooper. And I'm 99 % sure that there'll be another spin off once SG-1 finishes its run.


Maybe some day if one or two of you are "good enough" (however Hollywood chooses to define that) and if you try hard enough and keep studying and come up with some good, original ideas, then maybe you'll go on to work in TV. And if you're really, truly exceptional and determined, you could wind up with your own series, but that show will NOT be Horizon and I'm 99% sure it won't be any other Stargate series, either. If you choose, at that time, to do a Stargate knock-off and if the studio and network choose to allow it, then that's your perogative. But if you think the cries of plagiarism are loud now, be prepared for them to be twice as loud when your show comes out. ;)

I'm currently working on two original ideas. A television pilot concept, and a feature film screenplay. I've been in touch with some agencies in LA, yet I've decided to focus on moving over to LA first, since anything else would not make any sense. That will happen next summer, because there's a certain budget I need to get together first.

I don't really understand the point about a Stargate knock-off. Oh, yeah, that's because I can't come up with any concepts that don't involve a...uh...what's it called? Stargate.


I don't find the stories compelling. Yes, there's the whole "there are only five real stories to be done" thing, but what I've seen is familiar and I don't feel that enough has been done to make it truly original. I don't like it when the real producers of Stargate slack off and dish out rehashed material and I don't like to see it in fics, either.

I'll have to disagree. Especially Season Two will be dealing with some compelling, timely, and thought provoking new concepts, which have not been done before on Stargate. In classic sci-fi style some of them will be reflecting or even showing slight parallels to events in today's world. That's the beauty of sci-fi.


I don't find the characters engaging, even disregarding the cast. I can't identify with any of them and I just don't find myself drawn in to their situations. I just don't care what happens to them, and that's an important factor to me in ANY story, whether it's on TV, in a book, or on my computer screen. I want to be able to root for the good guys. Or the bad guys. Or ANY guys/gals/creatures.

Just out of curiosity. Have you actually read an episode?


Sorry, but I'm giving Horizon a pass.

Fortunately you have nothing to say when it comes to what GateWorld chooses to do, then.

ShadowMaat
September 15th, 2005, 03:47 PM
It doesn't have to be from Stargate in order to seem familiar.

And yeah, I read your original concepts way back when, didn't find them particularly interesting, but checked out the first "episode" and wasn't impressed.

Alex Rubit
September 15th, 2005, 04:09 PM
It doesn't have to be from Stargate in order to seem familiar.

And yeah, I read your original concepts way back when, didn't find them particularly interesting, but checked out the first "episode" and wasn't impressed.

Those original concepts were, how should I say...not very good!!! They were put together in a bad way, and they made the whole thing appear as something that it isn't. Including the whole initial "advertising" of it. At that time I had just gotten familiar with finally having had an internet connection of my own. Yup. I was very far behind. I hadn't even been aware that there's such a great deal of fan fiction or virtual shows out there. What can I say?

Anyway, I've said before, there's a lot about the pilot that I'd change if I could. But it's the way it is, and it won't change. I was planning on doing a "special edition" re-release of it over the hiatus, which would have included some severe changes, but I just couldn't find the time to do that.

I think you learn a lot over the course of a year that you spend writing or re-writing pretty much every day. It definitely shows. In a way I'm serious when I say that Season One was the run through. I think we're just really getting started with Season Two. I would never ask every single fan to follow the series or to like it. In fact, it would be odd if there weren't someone who hasn't got some kind of problem with it. What I'm saying is, the pilot can't be compared to how the show is today. Especially with Season Two, which will go back to a more "classic" Stargate setting, while having, I believe, a unique feel. It's not SG-1. It's not Atlantis. But it feels like Stargate. And, no. None of which what's coming up in Season Two has been ripped off from any other show either. Actually I don't watch enough television to really rip things off on a regular basis.

I wouldn't judge whether or not the characters are interesting if you've only read the pilot, since there's been A LOT of development since. It's a very character driven show, which I think it has to be, in order to make the characters interesting without having them be on television. Other than that, character driven stories just happen to interest me as an audience member as well as a writer.

Sorry if I appeared a bit harsh before. But criticizing Horizon is one thing. Feel free to do that as much as you like. But attacking me in bit more of a more personal way (implying I don't know the first thing about writing or television and film production) is another. ;)

prometheus72
September 15th, 2005, 04:45 PM
I just read this thread and I thought I'd sound off. Many of the comments here seemed overly critical and almost attacking. I guess I was just wondering why. Some who posted here to express their dislike for the show seemed very angry about what Horizon was called (fan fic/virtual series) and someone even called it arrogant or something like that. I may be missing the point, but isn't all of this supposed to be fun? This isn't compulsory reading, folks, it's a fan site. I think Alex and his crew have enjoyed creating their own spin-off and making it as interesting as possible for the Stargate fans out there who chose to read it. It certainly comes off that way to me, anyway. So these folks are over-achievers. So what? So they want to call their creation one thing and not another. So what? If I don't enjoy something, I just move on. The fact that many here chose to vehemently express their disdain for the show is so bizarre to me (and after just reading one episode, no less!). Constructive critisism is one thing. Comments originating from a mean spirit is quite another. I admit, not everything I read here was of this mean-spirited nature. But I urge those who participated in such activities to really take a good hard look at themselves and ask why.

To Alex--I commend you on the appropriate and diplomatic nature of your resposes. You showed a lot of class while explaining your position.

PrimalAscended
September 15th, 2005, 05:27 PM
Alex, thanks for replying to my first post, it's always good to see the comeback to posts whatever it may be. I'm also pleased you didn't see my comments as "mean spirited" as they defintitely weren't meant that way. Taking on board your own comments I'll read a few more "episodes" and see how things go, you all deserve that at least for all your hard work. I'll let you know whether it converts me or not! ;)

As to the whole "virtual series" business, I had genuinely never come across it before, even with my trawling of the ever growing and resourceful interweb!! Having done some more trawling I now see its a widespread phenomenon, but I still think its just semantics and window dressing of stories written by fans. Looks like an "agree to disagree" scenario to me then. ;)

As I said before I commend you all on your hard work and I'll let you know what I think of a few more of the stories. Point me at one or two more good ones and I'll check 'em out.

ShadowMaat
September 15th, 2005, 05:53 PM
I wasn't actually trying to attack anyone personally, Alex. I know very little about you and your background and based my assumptions on personal experience. And in my experience, I've never known a professional writer to dabble in something like a virtual spin-off. No, I'm not some worldly expert on the subject, but I do know a couple of writers and I've gleaned stuff from other online forums. I guess it's the spin-off thing that is a sticking point for me.

If you're going to go through the hassle of creating a whole series, why not make it your own material? Why couch it under the coat-tails of a pre-existing show? Granted, it can make a good jumping-off point, and one I've used often enough myself, but to dump so much time, effort, and resources into it when you could be doing it for something wholly yours? *shrug* I know everyone is different, but while I could see a fan doing it and while I understand that there are some professionals who are also fans, it just didn't seem likely to me. Guess I was wrong. Sorry if I offended. ;)

I do, however, still feel that the whole thing IS taken a bit too seriously. As Prometheus said, it's supposed to be a fun fan thing for everyone (writers and readers alike) to enjoy. But having air dates and "producers" and the like... it doesn't seem to be treated very tongue-in-cheek for something of this nature. I also take issue with folks not stating flat out that Horizon will never be a real series. I've skimmed over the threads here and seen comments from fans asking if the show will ever actually air and the answers hedge the question at best. Instead of "maybe some day" and talking about how you'd probably never be able to get the real cast, and probably wouldn't be able to do it yourselves, why not simply say that you aren't interested in producing this as a real show? If it IS just a "fun fan thing" and an "interesting experiement" or even a "stepping stone to future possibilities", just say so. "Horizon was never intended to be a real show and while the possibility may be fun to think about, we prefer to keep it here on the net, where it can still be wholly OUR project and where we don't have to worry about network censors, prima donna actors or scenes/settings/characters that would be impossible to reproduce on the small screen." Don't engender false hope with this "slim chance" stuff, just give a flat-out "NO chance", but with an explanation of why it's better this way.

Incidentally, "real" shows generate a lot of negativity, too, so perhaps this is one way in which Horizon has succeeded. :P

I wish you the best of luck, but as I said, it just isn't my thing.

Agent_Dark
September 15th, 2005, 06:34 PM
Not a fan of script format. IMO doesn't flow right for reading as a story, because it comes across as the script writer simply telling you what happens. A good story on the other hand should let the reader imagine they're right there in the thick of things.
Its like watching someone play a computer game - kinda boring, because you want to be playing it instead.

BTW, I noticed that you have forums at your website... So why do you need a seperate section at GateWorld? Couldn't you just link people to your own forums?

ShadowMaat
September 15th, 2005, 08:26 PM
From what Darren said, they've shut down the forum part of their site and moved it here.

And I've read some good scripts before. It's a different style but can still be effective.

Unfortunately, I've also read scripts which were basically stories broken up into script format and those don't work quite as well. :P

Long Kiss Goodnight was actually a pretty funny script. Makes you wonder what ELSE goes on "inside" scripts that we never get to see. ;)

Alex Rubit
September 17th, 2005, 11:05 AM
Alex, thanks for replying to my first post, it's always good to see the comeback to posts whatever it may be. I'm also pleased you didn't see my comments as "mean spirited" as they defintitely weren't meant that way. Taking on board your own comments I'll read a few more "episodes" and see how things go, you all deserve that at least for all your hard work. I'll let you know whether it converts me or not! ;)

As to the whole "virtual series" business, I had genuinely never come across it before, even with my trawling of the ever growing and resourceful interweb!! Having done some more trawling I now see its a widespread phenomenon, but I still think its just semantics and window dressing of stories written by fans. Looks like an "agree to disagree" scenario to me then. ;)

Yeah, there are tons of virtual series out there. I hadn't realized myself how many there were. Check out this site: http://www.epiguide.com/forums/index.php?s=. It's the forum of a site called EpiGuide, which is a huge hub for all kinds of virtual series. They even got what you could call a TV guide for virtual series. Take a look, and see that I'm not making any of this up. ;)

Only a small amount of virtual series are fan-written shows; there are a lot of original concepts as well.


As I said before I commend you all on your hard work and I'll let you know what I think of a few more of the stories. Point me at one or two more good ones and I'll check 'em out.

Thanks.

Well, if you want me to recommend an episode, it would have to be the Season Two premiere "A Time To Rise." I think it's a nice start for the new season, and you get an idea of where some things might be headed. In addition to that, our new series regular will be making his first appearance.

But if you'd like to check out some episodes of Season One, I'd recommend the final seven, starting with "The Enoly," the first part of a three-parter. The final seven episodes are all part of an arc; this three-parter is in a way the first chapter of the arc, while the following four episodes lead up the the season finale. "Home Front" features the apperances of two SG-1 characters. A recurring character (who's been promoted) and a certain SG-1 team member, who makes a brief but significant cameo.

If you'd like one specific Season One episode, check out the season finale "Judgment Day." I think you'll still be able to understand what's going on, even if you haven't read the episodes that come before. Reading the season finale is definitely a good way to get ready for the S2 premiere.

Alex Rubit
September 17th, 2005, 11:34 AM
I wasn't actually trying to attack anyone personally, Alex. I know very little about you and your background and based my assumptions on personal experience. And in my experience, I've never known a professional writer to dabble in something like a virtual spin-off. No, I'm not some worldly expert on the subject, but I do know a couple of writers and I've gleaned stuff from other online forums. I guess it's the spin-off thing that is a sticking point for me.

If you're going to go through the hassle of creating a whole series, why not make it your own material? Why couch it under the coat-tails of a pre-existing show? Granted, it can make a good jumping-off point, and one I've used often enough myself, but to dump so much time, effort, and resources into it when you could be doing it for something wholly yours? *shrug* I know everyone is different, but while I could see a fan doing it and while I understand that there are some professionals who are also fans, it just didn't seem likely to me. Guess I was wrong. Sorry if I offended. ;)

No problem. Of course there's no way for you to know that much about me. ;)

Of course I've been thinking about whether or not this is really beneficial for me, considering the amount of time it takes. Lately I've actually been a bit behind with the other projects I've been working on, because I've been having a lot of work to do in order to be ready for the season premiere.

So you wonder, is it worth all the time and effort? It's highly unlikely we'll ever make any money from it. However, I've realized it is definitely worth the effort, and very beneficial. I had written things before this, but it wasn't before Horizon actually premiered, and started "airing" episodes weekly, that I had ever worked on a project of such scale, with regard to the story development, consistent writing, writing the same show and the same characters over a long period of time, etc.

So, basically, this is a great way to get experience with something like this before even working on a television producion for the first time. As I said, you learn a lot over the course of a year of doing this. In addition to that, it gives you an idea of what it's like to produce a weekly television show; the various things you have to keep track of. Mainly of course it's the writing, since only now we've actually gotten people to work on 3D designs and things like that. So, now that we've got two departments (writing and art department), it's more work. But essentially it's three of us who are overlooking the whole process. Joe, the new co-executive producer, Sam, the supervising producer, and myself. And these job titles truly do have their meanings, and each of them brings along certain responsibilities.

So for me (and I believe for many of us) this is a great learning experience, while at the same time just a fun project.


I do, however, still feel that the whole thing IS taken a bit too seriously. As Prometheus said, it's supposed to be a fun fan thing for everyone (writers and readers alike) to enjoy. But having air dates and "producers" and the like... it doesn't seem to be treated very tongue-in-cheek for something of this nature.

That might have come across wrong. Of course it's all for fun. We never take ourselves too seriously; there's always a lot of fun involved when it comes to say the online story meetings. Somewhere in there we also get the work done of course. ;)

Naturally, if there's no other way, we'd of course deviate from our air date schedule, which has happened on virtual shows before (almost happened toward the end of Season One). But the reason we do what we can to keep the dates is solely the fans. If it weren't for the people following the series, it would be pointless to continue it, and it would have indeed ended after the first season.


I also take issue with folks not stating flat out that Horizon will never be a real series. I've skimmed over the threads here and seen comments from fans asking if the show will ever actually air and the answers hedge the question at best. Instead of "maybe some day" and talking about how you'd probably never be able to get the real cast, and probably wouldn't be able to do it yourselves, why not simply say that you aren't interested in producing this as a real show? If it IS just a "fun fan thing" and an "interesting experiement" or even a "stepping stone to future possibilities", just say so. "Horizon was never intended to be a real show and while the possibility may be fun to think about, we prefer to keep it here on the net, where it can still be wholly OUR project and where we don't have to worry about network censors, prima donna actors or scenes/settings/characters that would be impossible to reproduce on the small screen." Don't engender false hope with this "slim chance" stuff, just give a flat-out "NO chance", but with an explanation of why it's better this way.

I don't think anyone expected so many people seriously thinking it would become a television show, but I think that's because the concept of a virtual series is just something new to a lot of people.

A lot of the answers to those questions weren't meant too seriously. The serious answer is: of course we'd love to see it on television. That would be great! Is it ever going to happen? Highly, highly, highly unlikely. Alone because of the fact that the people who have the right and deserve to create the next spin off, are the great people working on SG-1 and Atlantis.

I've said this before, what we'd like to do is just have the series grow as it is; meaning have a lot of people reading and enjoying the episodes, and hopefully have a lot of specials, like CG images or banners, come up down the road.


Incidentally, "real" shows generate a lot of negativity, too, so perhaps this is one way in which Horizon has succeeded. :P

I wish you the best of luck, but as I said, it just isn't my thing.

Definitely. There's been some great publicity. Regardless of what people are saying, at least they're talking about us. ;)

If this were a television show, there'd naturally be positive as well as negative reactions, because it is a different from the show it originated from, which is of course SG-1. It aims to be, in a way unique, while it stays very true to what Stargate has always been about. Maybe it sounds strange, but to me it's like an original series, which just happens to take place in the familiar Stargate universe.

Alex Rubit
September 17th, 2005, 11:40 AM
Not a fan of script format. IMO doesn't flow right for reading as a story, because it comes across as the script writer simply telling you what happens. A good story on the other hand should let the reader imagine they're right there in the thick of things.
Its like watching someone play a computer game - kinda boring, because you want to be playing it instead.

BTW, I noticed that you have forums at your website... So why do you need a seperate section at GateWorld? Couldn't you just link people to your own forums?

I've said this so many times, I'll say it one more time. Then, I'm afraid I can't keep repeating myself. ;)

These scripts, as they are now, are written in the standard industry format, but we do tweak it a little. A lot of the descriptions in the scripts, come across like something you'd write in a novel; i.e. referring to how a character feels.

In addition to that, they don't come across like someone telling you what happens. They're written in a way that makes them tense, emotional, dramatic; whatever it is you're aiming for. Believe me, it makes a great difference how you write something, and, very importantly, what kind of words you use.

If we'd ever shoot one of these episodes, the first thing we'd need to do is take out some of the details, to give the actors and directors a chance to bring in their own ideas and interpretations.

Simonthefurling
September 17th, 2005, 01:58 PM
Novels within the season is very unlikely to happen. However, I have to say I have considered something like this. But instead of having the story of the novel set within the season itself, it would be taking place between two seasons, and kind of serve as a prequel for the upcoming season.

But to be perfectly honest, if something like this were ever to happen, I'd like to achieve some kind of deal with MGM, and actually sell those novels. ;)

That seems like quite a nice idea. Or perhaps you could do some novel written stuff on the Volorians (is that right? Off the top of my head here, iv only read the start of ep1 and whats on your website, for reasons already explained) and how they lived on the space station before earth came. It would be like a mini series of Atlantis on how the Ancients lived there :)

I would read them, give those people that find reading scripts difficult/uniteresting/whatever reason a chance to experienc a taste of Horizon :D

(Perhaps if they're really impressed with novels, they'll just have to go give the scripts another shot ;))

Alex Rubit
September 17th, 2005, 02:19 PM
That seems like quite a nice idea. Or perhaps you could do some novel written stuff on the Volorians (is that right? Off the top of my head here, iv only read the start of ep1 and whats on your website, for reasons already explained) and how they lived on the space station before earth came. It would be like a mini series of Atlantis on how the Ancients lived there :)

I would read them, give those people that find reading scripts difficult/uniteresting/whatever reason a chance to experienc a taste of Horizon :D

(Perhaps if they're really impressed with novels, they'll just have to go give the scripts another shot ;))

They're the Vorians, but that's an interesting idea. ;)

Horizon used to be one of many Vorian science outposts. But you'd be surprised by what a great deal of Vorian history there is; a lot has been mentioned and hinted in the episodes ("Power Play" and "Equilibrium" mainly), but there's a vast amount of events that took place, that only have been talked about in the episodes. Some backstory hasn't even been mentioned in episodes at all yet. If there'd be a prequel, it could deal with events from Vorian history.

About a thousand years ago, there was this thing called the "Cai'nan Wars." Doesn't really give anything away if you don't know what a Cai'nan is, I guess. :D

Anyway, setting a prequel at some point in Vorian history (perhaps even recent history) is a nice idea. The Vorians, I think, are quite an interesting race of humans, because from an evolution stand-point they're much closer to the Ancients than we are (those Cai'nan guys definitely are). So maybe one day there'll be novels like that. I really like that idea. I'm thinking they'd be most likely written by a writer from outside the actual writing staff, someone who's written novels before and of course someone who's familiar with the series.

Elite Anubis Guard
September 18th, 2005, 05:55 AM
Well wow, what a load of attacks on Alex and how delightful to see your such nice people. If you'd noticed, Alex never said it was anything more. Its those people (that in my opinion are too lazy to check out the website) that make the assumptions its a telly series.

PrimalAscended
September 20th, 2005, 11:32 AM
Well wow, what a load of attacks on Alex and how delightful to see your such nice people. If you'd noticed, Alex never said it was anything more. Its those people (that in my opinion are too lazy to check out the website) that make the assumptions its a telly series.

The point I, and others, have made EAG is that by calling Horizon a "virtual series", giving it a "virtual cast", having "executive producers" and the like is confusing fans into thinking its a real TV series and not fan produced stories.

As pointed out to me by Alex, this is not a new thing, but I'm a long time fan of all things Sci-Fi and long time user of the interweb and I'd never come across this idea before. So I'm guessing neither have alot of other fans and are just getting confused and making the obvious assumption that it's a spin off TV show. Maybe a little "this is not a real TV show, but a fan produced series" would help. Just a thought. :)

Elite Anubis Guard
September 20th, 2005, 11:43 AM
There is an About Horizon section on the website which clearly explains the thing!

PrimalAscended
September 20th, 2005, 11:51 AM
I know I've read the about page as well as a couple of "episodes", but even on that page there's no explicit "this is not a real TV show, but a fan produced series of stories" to help clear up the confusion.

A tagline saying that on the main page might just stop any future problems. But as I said, just a suggestion. :)

Elite Anubis Guard
September 20th, 2005, 11:57 AM
As I have also suggested numerous times. Its is quite tiresome people asking.

PrimalAscended
September 20th, 2005, 12:04 PM
As I have also suggested numerous times. Its is quite tiresome people asking.

Hehehe....I'm sure it is! You know how excitable ravenous Sci-Fi fans can get at the whiff of a potential new series!! ;)

Elite Anubis Guard
September 20th, 2005, 12:10 PM
Meh, they should all just read the biggest thread, its all explained in there, after bits of abuse from other members.

ShadowMaat
September 20th, 2005, 12:29 PM
The serious answer is: of course we'd love to see it on television. That would be great! Is it ever going to happen? Highly, highly, highly unlikely.
See, but that's exactly the kind of comment I mean. It isn't "highly, highly unlikely", it's "never in a million years".

What's wrong with it being a virtual show? Why not be happy with that? Why build up false hopes and exagerrated expectations that it will ever be anything more than what it is now? Horizon could go on to be the most fantastic, most read, most highly anticipated virtual series on the entire internet... but it will still only be virtual. All the CGI sequences, photomanips, cool music and voiceovers in the world won't change that and while it might be fun to dream otherwise, to imply that there is even a one-in-a-million chance of Horizon being made into a "real" show is just... dishonest to me. Sorry, but that's how it comes off to me.

Be happy with what you have and by all means, strive to be something more than just "another virtual show", but please don't hint at this ever becoming a reality. It won't happen.

Alex Rubit
September 20th, 2005, 02:54 PM
See, but that's exactly the kind of comment I mean. It isn't "highly, highly unlikely", it's "never in a million years".

What's wrong with it being a virtual show? Why not be happy with that? Why build up false hopes and exagerrated expectations that it will ever be anything more than what it is now? Horizon could go on to be the most fantastic, most read, most highly anticipated virtual series on the entire internet... but it will still only be virtual. All the CGI sequences, photomanips, cool music and voiceovers in the world won't change that and while it might be fun to dream otherwise, to imply that there is even a one-in-a-million chance of Horizon being made into a "real" show is just... dishonest to me. Sorry, but that's how it comes off to me.

Be happy with what you have and by all means, strive to be something more than just "another virtual show", but please don't hint at this ever becoming a reality. It won't happen.

I say it's very, very, very unlikely, because I don't know what happens in the future. Do I think it will become a television show? No, I don't!!! I think that will never happen for the reasons I've already stated (we seem to agree on that).

Are we all happy with what it is? Yes, we couldn't be more happy!!! Thanks to GateWorld, it's turning into one of the biggest virtual series out there; episodes are now even being translated into other languages, because there've been a lot of requests regarding that. We couldn't be more pleased with how things are going.

Elite Anubis Guard
September 20th, 2005, 10:50 PM
OMFG, he never bloody said, yes it's gonna be a show some time in the future did he, highly highly highly highly unlikely is just as good as never gonna happen, because who in their right mind would actually think a fan created series such as this would ever make it onto TV?

For gods sake, it's already been on the internet for free, for a year, they certainly wouldnt take such a series, thats been available for free for a year.

Simonthefurling
September 21st, 2005, 08:08 AM
Hmm. With all the hype about this ill give reading s2 ep1 a shot. Seems interesting and from what iv heard its not compulsory to read s1 before s2 so hopefully i wont be too lost :)

Major Tyler
September 21st, 2005, 09:16 AM
LOL, the more ShadowMaat objects to it, the more I want to read the episodes to see what she's all riled up about! :P

Osiris-RA
September 21st, 2005, 09:23 AM
See, but that's exactly the kind of comment I mean. It isn't "highly, highly unlikely", it's "never in a million years".

Never in a million years, eh? I bet if the creators of Desperate Housewives had been that demotivating, they wouldn't have a hit series on thier hands. Writing's one part stamina, two parts motivation, two parts conviction, and a whole lotta hope. ;) Never say never.

chipman2382
September 23rd, 2005, 01:55 PM
anybody following this? i tried sitting down and reading the first season premier, but i just couldn't stand the script format. i kinda got bored. if it was in paragraph form, i might be more inclined to get into it. just my opinion, what does everyone else think?

Elite Anubis Guard
September 23rd, 2005, 01:57 PM
...that this should be in the horizon board.

walterIsTheMan
September 23rd, 2005, 01:57 PM
i dont bother with it. its nothing personal, i just dont consider it cannon :)