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GateWorld
September 8th, 2005, 11:28 AM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/2102.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px solid black" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888">GALACTICA SEASON TWO</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">PEGASUS</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 210</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
The crew is stunned to learn that the Battlestar Pegasus also survived the attack on the Colonies, but tensions run high when the Pegasus's Admiral Cain assumes command of the fleet. Baltar is assigned to examine the Pegasus's own Cylon prisoner, a battered woman who looks like Number Six.

<FONT SIZE=1><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

ronsmytheiii
September 23rd, 2005, 08:02 PM
Ron Moore is a genius, I cant say how vindicated I felt when Adama ordered the vipers launched and the marines dispatched.

Cant wait for the second episode, wonder what the fleet will say.

Lt. Elliot
September 23rd, 2005, 08:04 PM
OH WOW OH WOW! I have to say, this one was up there with the rest.

I was estatic when we heard Pegasus on the speakers. Amazing! And then Admiral Cain I do not like. Wow, that thing on her face annoyed the crap out of me.

Eww. Cylon Rapists. Those Pegasus crew people are disgusting. How could Cain find Tyrol and Helo guilty? The man had his pants down for gods sake!

Poor Number Six. Seeing her like that made me wanna cry. I've never seen Six that like. And Pegasus Six, I thought we'd see a different model, for some reason GINA I was thinking. Can't member why.

Cain was rude to Roslin about her being president. She has kicked ass and it isn't even funny. She said "I wont get involved in Galactica's internal affairs" and then she does all the crew changes. At least Starbuck knows not to obey orders for sucky plans!

Cannot wait till January! AHH! :D

Earlydawn
September 23rd, 2005, 08:04 PM
I can't even begin to address the excellence of Adama's reaction to the trial. I had a smile on my face a mile wide when he decided to go tactical. :D

923flanigan
September 23rd, 2005, 08:06 PM
Wow....that's all I can say....wow.

At first, you think it's going to be a nice, easy going, political episode...then, suddenly, the reasigning...Ha ha, score cards. That cracked me up. Then we get to see the Blackbird in action! :eek: I've died and gone to heaven! Very emotional. Must....have...second...half.....I practically screamed when the 'to be continued' screen came up. :D

microzstar
September 23rd, 2005, 08:07 PM
Oh my god, what an episode. I have to say that it was excellent... even though I pretty much hated everything that went on. I knew beforehand that they'd meet up with the Pegasus of course, but I didn't realize that so much would change. The strict military hierarchy... Cain being so ... about all the rules. Just ... oh god. I was like breathless throughout the whole episode. With Boomer and her baby? Almost cried! How could they do that? And with the captured Six... there are no words to describe what I felt. It is SO HORRIBLE what they did to her. Almost unspeakable. And putting Apollo in a raptor? SPLITTING UP APOLLO AND STARBUCK?! They can't do that! There's no way they can do that. AAAH NO DON'T DO THAT!

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
September 23rd, 2005, 08:07 PM
I must say this was the most disturbing episode of series. The rape scene with Sharon and that dude was just creepy. :eek:

Elwe Singollo
September 23rd, 2005, 08:07 PM
Well, all i can really say about Cain is that shes a power hungry hyprocrite. :rolleyes: Obviously she does bring up points that makes Adama look no so good, but her actions are just disgusting.

Speaking of disgusting, my poor cylon pretties are being bashed and raped (or attempted for that matter). That was hard to watch. :(

Pegasus crew... DIE!!!

microzstar
September 23rd, 2005, 08:09 PM
I am feeling to a strong urge to kick all the Pegasus' peoples asses HELLA BAD!!! Oh man... January? No way, how are we going to wait that long? Cliffhangers ARE NOT FUNNY when you have to wait for FOUR MONTHS! It's wrong! Very wrong!

walterIsTheMan
September 23rd, 2005, 08:10 PM
i cant believe that guy who tried to rape sharon. its too bad tyrell killed him, cause i wanted to do it myself :mad: .

one other thing i really didnt like was the music in the opening seen. i was tempted to mute the TV it was so bad

CKO
September 23rd, 2005, 08:11 PM
HOLY FRAK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PT2 is gonna be good.

Adm. Cain is (fill in the blank with a radom cus word) i really dont like her.

yea i dont like those pegasus jerks either.

one thing... reassign lee/kara is a mistake waitin' to happen... For gods sake.. lee is a viper pilot... not a raptor pilot... loved seein' kara buck the orders of the other CAG and do what lee says instead.

FeloniousMonk
September 23rd, 2005, 08:12 PM
I practically screamed when the 'to be continued' screen came up. :D
haha I hate to admit that a show can get to me this much but when the show ended I actually yelled out "david, ron. you ass holes!"

:p so i've been drinking a little, sue me

SomeoneElse292
September 23rd, 2005, 08:13 PM
if i were Adama. as soon as Cain started being an ass, i would have gotten all my crew back on board, and order the entire fleet to do a FTL jump, then i would calculate a new one and jump again, and forget i ever saw the pegasus... then if anyone asked why i did it, i would say that the pegasus was under the controll of cylons

captainpash
September 23rd, 2005, 08:14 PM
Man I really think that cain killed the XO. Man i wanted to kill cain. Anyways I think cain did not care what they did to the cylon.

SomeoneElse292
September 23rd, 2005, 08:16 PM
Man I really think that cain killed the XO. Man i wanted to kill cain. Anyways I think cain did not care what they did to the cylon.

i cant belelive she let the crew rape her... its one thing to kill a cylon for being a cylon... its another thing to let the entire crew rape her again and agiain... and everytime i saw Cain... i wish i could walk right into the room, and unload a clip into her head

captainpash
September 23rd, 2005, 08:19 PM
The Pegaus crew had no right to do that the glatica crew has been through much worse than that and they are still civil people when it comes down to it.

ronsmytheiii
September 23rd, 2005, 08:24 PM
The Pegaus crew had no right to do that the glatica crew has been through much worse than that and they are still civil people when it comes down to it.


You cant say that, all we know is that they escaped and tracked a Cylon fleet, they could have been through worse

But I think the fleet was the main balancer that prevented the Galactica from becomming the Pegasus, since they had something to fight for, while Pegasus thought they were alone so basically said "screw it, Im taking as much Cylons down with me as I can and doing whatever the heck I want" That is why Cain doesnt even care about the fleet.

FeloniousMonk
September 23rd, 2005, 08:25 PM
ok, for an actual analysis of this episode:

This was easily one of the most intense episodes I've seen. Even without the spoilers I knew exactly what would happen when Cain took charge; someone was bound to get transferred and there's no way the past indescretions of Apollo & Co. were going to be ingnored. I know people are upset about what Cain did but try looking at the situation from her perspective.

Apollo is a mutineer, that can't be denied. Starbuck is notoriously insubordinate, that can't be denied. Tyrol skated by the first trial by the skin of his teeth and in normal circumstances would've been tossed in the brig. Helo at least would've been stripped of his rank for fraternizing and protecting an enemy combatant.

Think about it...Adama has had Roslin and the rest of the fleet to keep him sane. Cain had nothing but her ship and her military training. They were all alone for this entire time, thinking the rest of humanity was simply destroyed. All they cared about was kicking some Cylon ass and when you have a ship full of military folk you're going to want to rely on that military training to get the job done.

Yes, she seems like quite the ***** but she has good reason. What amazed me is the fact that Adama didn't play Roslin's card; if Cain requires Adama to recognize her as a superior due to the chain of command then she would be a hypocrite to not recognize the authority of the President. The situation may not have been resolved by calling in the big political guns but it may have kept it from turning into the bloodbath that I'm afraid we're going to see in January.

Either way, amazing episode. Despite the lack of logic in not having Roslin stick her nose into the issue it still felt like this is exactly how these people would act if the situation were real. That's what I love so much about this show. With Stargate and most other scifi shows the way characters react to these amazing circumstances rarely feels real. To be honest the only time I really felt the realism in SG1 was in the season 1 finale and season 2 opener. But with this show...nearly every episode has at least half of its' scenes feeling more like being a voyer to a real life scenario rather than simply watching a tv show.

Great episode.....January? It's a damn good thing all the networks have started their shows now or I'd be annoyed not having any good tv to look forward to (how sad is that??).

SomeoneElse292
September 23rd, 2005, 08:26 PM
is it just me, or does it also seem that Cain doesnt care about the Civilian population... she wont talk to the president... she seem not to want to re supply them, and it looks as if shes drafted all the Civilians that were on Pegasus

Vyse
September 23rd, 2005, 08:27 PM
Great episode, pissesd we will have to wait for so long for part 2! My only question is doesn't the President have any power over the Admiral?

FeloniousMonk
September 23rd, 2005, 08:27 PM
You cant say that, all we know is that they escaped and tracked a Cylon fleet, they could have been through worse

But I think the fleet was the main balancer that prevented the Galactica from becomming the Pegasus, since they had something to fight for, while Pegasus thought they were alone so basically said "screw it, Im taking as much Cylons down with me as I can and doing whatever the heck I want" That is why Cain doesnt even care about the fleet.
Exactly. Adama had the survival of the human race to keep him sane. For all we know Cain was exactly like Adama if not a better CO before the attacks. Being alone in space, thinking the rest of your species has been destroyed....like I said, their military training is probably the only thing that kept that ship from breaking out into utter chaos.


Great episode, pissesd we will have to wait for so long for part 2! My only question is doesn't the President have any power over the Admiral?
If their chain of command is anything like ours, then yes. The leader of whatever nation in question is always the ultimate commander in chief of the entire military.

Capt. Reynolds
September 23rd, 2005, 08:28 PM
Aaarrrrrg!!!!! I hate how sci fi does this! Just when the galactica rebels against the morons....'To be continued' pops up!!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOO! Now I hafta wait till january to see the battles...the explosions...the general rebellion....*sniffle sniffle* i dont know if my pour soul can take it.....

zats
September 23rd, 2005, 08:32 PM
Ergh! Can't. Survive. Until. January! [Like a splinter in your mind...driving you mad...]

What was good:
a. Storyline. Even with spoilers, I didn't expect anything of this magnitude.
b. Effects. I think they're getting better. Wow.
c. Characters. Wow. Screen time for everyone. Not as much Kara or Lee as I'd've liked, but what was there was memorable and o so delicious. Tyrol and Helo were awesome. Number Six and her doppelganger were a surprise. An article in Sci-Fi Magazine hinted at another Six, but this wasn't how I expected her to be introduced. Giaus was magnificent--that last scene was the first time that I've ever felt anything but revulsion or contempt for his character. [sighs contentedly] This whole ep actually felt like an ensemble episode, not a selected troop of three or four, and that kept pacing up as we observed effects of the Pegasus on Galactica's crew.

What wasn't good:
a. Sorry to poke plot holes, but where exactly was the rest of the deck crew when Helo and Tyrol went barreling off to save Sharon? They could have grabbed Cally on their way down.

To summarize:
Lovely ep. Well, no, actually, it was disturbing as all hell--I nearly threw my drink at the TV during the attempted rape scene (there are lines that simply should not be crossed). But overall it was dark, and twisted, and I can't wait for January.

Which is, I guess, the point of a season finale.

SomeoneElse292
September 23rd, 2005, 08:33 PM
Great episode, pissesd we will have to wait for so long for part 2! My only question is doesn't the President have any power over the Admiral?

the laws probaly give her power over the military, but with Adama they kinda respected the Adama is incharge of Military desions and she is in charge of more polical matters... but Cain does even respect the President so she would listen to her anways... i wonder if she could of just promoted Adama to Admiral (or Admiral of the Fleet, which is the top rank in the Conial Fleet) and ended this conflict before it began

zats
September 23rd, 2005, 08:36 PM
[snip]If their chain of command is anything like ours, then yes. The leader of whatever nation in question is always the ultimate commander in chief of the entire military.
Theoretically, yes. In reality, the commander in chief is the one with nastiest guns :rolleyes: . Even if Roslin attempted to take control over the military, it's doubtful that Cain would willingly relinquish command, and there'd be nothing Roslin could do about it.

SomeoneElse292
September 23rd, 2005, 08:36 PM
right after Baltar saw number six lying on the floor in the cell, he should have gone to Adama and the president, and claimed that Cain is a cylon and should be killed right away... which might have worked since he is "the cylon expert"

captainpash
September 23rd, 2005, 08:37 PM
I think that Cain may have read the logs but she was reading them to hurt adama. There is something going on deeper below the surface between those two. She called him bill the only other people to do that are the xo and his wife.

also do you think the cain killed her xo?

spg_1983
September 23rd, 2005, 08:37 PM
that was easily the greatest episode yet! as soon as it was revealed what that guy was gonna try to do to sharon i turned to my friend and said, "Adama is gonna frak Cain up" i knew that no matter how it tunred out Pegasus' crew had crossed a line and Adama was gonna take her down, i cannot wait till january, Ronald D. Moore is a genius and I am his *****.

SomeoneElse292
September 23rd, 2005, 08:39 PM
I think that Cain may have read the logs but she was reading them to hurt adama. There is something going on deeper below the surface between those two. She called him bill the only other people to do that are the xo and his wife.

also do you think the cain killed her xo?

yes, i think that she killed her xo since he refussed to follow a crappy order, and should be exicuted for it, since she didnt give him/her a trial for disobying a direct order

Cikak
September 23rd, 2005, 08:40 PM
Man the people on Pegasus are barbarians, makes me wish the Cylons had killed them.

captainpash
September 23rd, 2005, 08:41 PM
Though I think that Cain knows Adama personly.

Sauce
September 23rd, 2005, 08:46 PM
Gotta say I'm a bit disappointed. This story line deserved much more time to develop than one episode. More like Kobol's last Gleaming two episode finale. The ending felt forced, and the characters reactions at times seemed unrealistic. One of the things I really love about BSG is the way it develops the stories and more importantly it's characters. Watching this episode was like watching a readers digest version of BSG.

Don't get me wrong though, the premise was great, I just felt it wasn't nearly filled out enough. The tensions that would arise after bringing another Battle Star into the mix is almost endless. Particularly when the commanders are not on the same page (ei. Cylon torture, crew discipline, military oblectives etc.). The stories you could tell about integrating the Pegasus into the fleet should at least fill several eps.

BTW, why didn't they talk about finding Earth. Shouldn't Admiral Cain have been informed on it's discovery? Where was the talk about the Cylon virus infecting netwoked Colonial ships? It seems Pegasus is a more advanced Battle star than Galactica. It's also equipped with the newer Vipers. Why wouldn't it be affected, did the Galactica even mention it was possibly Vulnerable? How about the different Cylon Models?

As far as the finale, do you think Colonial soldiers would actually fire upon each other? (IMHO Adama did escalate the situation unneccesarily) It's not like there's many of them left. I could see both crews refusing to follow their commanders orders. I mean what's the Pegasus crew going to do? Go down on a hail of fire against the few human survivors of a holocaust? People ultimately want to survive. The Galactica and the rest of the fleet present the best possiblity of that future. It's also something the Pegasus crew obviously doesn't have....a future.

FoolishPleasure
September 23rd, 2005, 08:47 PM
Excellent episode. . as usual!

Adama has had to deal with an entire fleet of civilians, while Cain has been alone with her military ruffians. Naturally they are going to see things differently. Cain reminds me of Capt. Bligh (Mutiny on the Bounty). Such a good actress. . and I hate her guts! *LOL*

powerofnaq
September 23rd, 2005, 08:55 PM
ok, for an actual analysis of this episode:

This was easily one of the most intense episodes I've seen. Even without the spoilers I knew exactly what would happen when Cain took charge; someone was bound to get transferred and there's no way the past indescretions of Apollo & Co. were going to be ingnored. I know people are upset about what Cain did but try looking at the situation from her perspective.
Yeah, but as Adama said, its all about context. Context is important. Yeah, they shot down a civilian ship, but did it have them on? Or was it just a ship with nukes? Context matters.


Apollo is a mutineer, that can't be denied.
True, but he still did the right thing. I think even Cdr. Adama sees that now. Trying to overthrow the civilian part of the fleet, even if right, only serves to divide the fleet. Allowing the people a voice, to give them hope, serves the grand purpose: to continue the survival of the human race.


Starbuck is notoriously insubordinate, that can't be denied.
True, but again, many times she is right. And order can't be valid if is wrong. And this brings up my theory about what this show is about: free will vs. destiny. Humans vs Cylons, respectively. She CHOOSES to follow orders. Cylons follow them because they are supposed to.

And she is still one of the best pilots in the fleet.


Tyrol skated by the first trial by the skin of his teeth and in normal circumstances would've been tossed in the brig. Helo at least would've been stripped of his rank for fraternizing and protecting an enemy combatant.
Both true, but at the same time, they got off because of the human component. Adama and Laura were compassionate, they were human, something Cylons cannot be. Not yet.


Think about it...Adama has had Roslin and the rest of the fleet to keep him sane. Cain had nothing but her ship and her military training. They were all alone for this entire time, thinking the rest of humanity was simply destroyed. All they cared about was kicking some Cylon ass and when you have a ship full of military folk you're going to want to rely on that military training to get the job done.
I think this is a great point. I totally agree. All they had to go on was their military training. They took it too far. They became the Cylons in a respect. "Fight, fight, kill, destroy. Do not think, just do." They lost their humanity.


Yes, she seems like quite the ***** but she has good reason. What amazed me is the fact that Adama didn't play Roslin's card; if Cain requires Adama to recognize her as a superior due to the chain of command then she would be a hypocrite to not recognize the authority of the President. The situation may not have been resolved by calling in the big political guns but it may have kept it from turning into the bloodbath that I'm afraid we're going to see in January.
This bring back the human component. Cain wants absolute loyalty. Follow me. Like a robot, like a Cylon. Adama lets his humanity come into play when sending the Marines and the Vipers. That humanity is still alive because of Laura, because of the fleet, because of Boomer(a big point: Cdr Adama, the Chief, Helo all care about Cylons. They cared first. Because they are human, that's what they do. They don't always follow logic, they follow emotion. Free Boomer, and maybe now Six, understand that.)


Either way, amazing episode. Despite the lack of logic in not having Roslin stick her nose into the issue it still felt like this is exactly how these people would act if the situation were real. That's what I love so much about this show. With Stargate and most other scifi shows the way characters react to these amazing circumstances rarely feels real. To be honest the only time I really felt the realism in SG1 was in the season 1 finale and season 2 opener. But with this show...nearly every episode has at least half of its' scenes feeling more like being a voyer to a real life scenario rather than simply watching a tv show.

Great episode.....January? It's a damn good thing all the networks have started their shows now or I'd be annoyed not having any good tv to look forward to (how sad is that??).

I totally agree. Best show on TV right now. Its up there with B5 as my favorites.

Sauce
September 23rd, 2005, 09:03 PM
Quote:
i cant belelive she let the crew rape her... its one thing to kill a cylon for being a cylon... its another thing to let the entire crew rape her again and agiain... and everytime i saw Cain... i wish i could walk right into the room, and unload a clip into her head

As brutal as it seems, how would you react after billions of your countrymen were obliterated in cold blood? I can't say I agree with that behavior, but then again I haven't seen my world blown up in a mushroom cloud.

Quote:
Think about it...Adama has had Roslin and the rest of the fleet to keep him sane. Cain had nothing but her ship and her military training. They were all alone for this entire time, thinking the rest of humanity was simply destroyed. All they cared about was kicking some Cylon ass and when you have a ship full of military folk you're going to want to rely on that military training to get the job done.


True, as far as the Pegasus was concerned THEY were the only survivors left.

keshou
September 23rd, 2005, 09:04 PM
FANTASTIC, if disturbing, episode. I too nearly cried when "to be continued" flashed on my screen.

You knew Admiral Cain was going to be trouble the minute her crew practically goose-stepped off the shuttle. :)

And yet she had some valid points. Even with the "context" of the events - there were a lot of screwups on the Galactica. Not the most disciplined crew around. But they got the job done under extraordinary circumstances. So did Admiral Cain - but she also happened to be sadistic in her methods. Not just a "by the book" commander.

I hated the way the Pegasus crew treated the Galactica crew. As if they were totally second-class. The only one who seemed sympathetic was the guy who wanted to look at the Blackbird. They seemed to totally reflect Cain's philosophy.

Of course the most disturbing parts involved Pegasus Six and Sharon. Ron Moore said he would make us question our views on the Cylons and he sure is pushing the right buttons for that.

Baltar's scenes with Pegasus Six were fascinating. First to hear him admit his love for HIS Six. Then to see his face as he looked at Pegasus Six. I remember the "Six" who tried to beat Starbuck to a pulp on Caprica. Not a sympathetic creature. And yet Ron Moore knows that allowing the sadistic torture and rape of a prisoner pushes all the boundaries that humans have tried to set up to preserve our "humanity".

I found Kara's interrogation of Leoben to be questionable but not over the line. I found Roslin's "airlock that trash" attitude towards Leoben (and later Sharon) to be surprising but sort of understandable. And yet systematic torture and rape crosses the line.

I can't imagine how they're going to resolve this one in part two- although I suspect Admiral Cain won't be alive at the end. What will happen to Helo and Tyrol?

And what of the special ship that the basestars are guarding? What's up with that?

Egads - it's going to be a long wait until January.

FeloniousMonk
September 23rd, 2005, 09:05 PM
Tyrol and Helo were awesome.
I hate to admit it but when I saw them bursting into the brig I actually smiled and said out loud "Good boys." :p


Theoretically, yes. In reality, the commander in chief is the one with nastiest guns :rolleyes: . Even if Roslin attempted to take control over the military, it's doubtful that Cain would willingly relinquish command, and there'd be nothing Roslin could do about it.
No, in reality it works as well. ;) Lemme give you a little lesson on the strength of the American Carrier Battle Group.


A US aircraft carrier has the power of a small air force and a single carrier can theoretically launch an attack on over 90% of the land mass on earth. Protected by a pair of guided missle cruisers, multiple destoyers, frigates, supply ships, and no doubt at least a pair of hunter/killer submarines (and quite possibly a boomer, but we'd never know it), an aircraft carrier is probably the most strongly defended piece of sovereign American land there is. The Admiral of such a battle group is able to strike nearly any place on the planet with a multitude of weapons, some of them massively destructive. The Admiral of a battle group has the ability, if not direct authority, to launch an array of nuclear weapons that can reach any point on this planet.


What keeps a power hungry Admiral from going nuts and thinking he can control the whole world? Well, the fact that there eleven other battle groups probably has something to do with it....but the main reason is the chain of command. A CVBG Admiral can't use his destructive force without authorization from a higher power, namely the President of the United States (and of course, Congress and the joint chiefs). If a crazy Admiral decided to go crazy and bomb Paris (because that would be so much damn fun....seriously :eek: ) he wouldn't be able to because a single order from a higher Admiral sitting behind a desk in the Pentagon would override it. Even if that higher brass didn't have a single weapon at his disposal an attack still wouldn't happen because the crews of those ships would realize that the chain of command was ordering them to disobey the crazy orders of a kooky Admiral.


Why did I quote that and make it so small? Because I've been drinking and if it's boring to read as it was fun to type than I highly doubt you want to bother reading a word of it. :p

My point is that bigger guns don't mean a thing if you can't actually pull the trigger on them. ;) Even in the situation the Pegasus is facing I doubt they'd all be willing to simply write off the rest of humanity by disobeying a direct order from the President of the Colonies....even if she is just a schoolteacher. :p :p :p

FeloniousMonk
September 23rd, 2005, 09:08 PM
Yeah, but as Adama said, its all about context. Context is important. Yeah, they shot down a civilian ship, but did it have them on? Or was it just a ship with nukes? Context matters.


True, but he still did the right thing. I think even Cdr. Adama sees that now. Trying to overthrow the civilian part of the fleet, even if right, only serves to divide the fleet. Allowing the people a voice, to give them hope, serves the grand purpose: to continue the survival of the human race.


True, but again, many times she is right. And order can't be valid if is wrong. And this brings up my theory about what this show is about: free will vs. destiny. Humans vs Cylons, respectively. She CHOOSES to follow orders. Cylons follow them because they are supposed to.

And she is still one of the best pilots in the fleet.


Both true, but at the same time, they got off because of the human component. Adama and Laura were compassionate, they were human, something Cylons cannot be. Not yet.


I think this is a great point. I totally agree. All they had to go on was their military training. They took it too far. They became the Cylons in a respect. "Fight, fight, kill, destroy. Do not think, just do." They lost their humanity.


This bring back the human component. Cain wants absolute loyalty. Follow me. Like a robot, like a Cylon. Adama lets his humanity come into play when sending the Marines and the Vipers. That humanity is still alive because of Laura, because of the fleet, because of Boomer(a big point: Cdr Adama, the Chief, Helo all care about Cylons. They cared first. Because they are human, that's what they do. They don't always follow logic, they follow emotion. Free Boomer, and maybe now Six, understand that.)



I totally agree. Best show on TV right now. Its up there with B5 as my favorites.
Don't get me wrong, I understand and agree with all your points...but the mind of someone in the military during times of war is often quite different than the mind of a civilian. When in extremely stressful and life threatening situations, sometimes removing all shadows of your humanity and relying solely on your training is the one and only thing that gets you through a mission alive.

I'm not saying what Cain did was right, just saying that it wasn't wrong. Also, like Adama said, if Starbuck is going to wear the uniform then she should obey the rules. I don't care how good of a pilot she is, she can't "choose" to disobey orders she doesn't like. That's not how the military works and it's not how it should ever work.


If it did, we'd lose every conflict. :p

powerofnaq
September 23rd, 2005, 09:10 PM
Gotta say I'm a bit disappointed. This story line deserved much more time to develop than one episode. More like Kobol's last Gleaming two episode finale. The ending felt forced, and the characters reactions at times seemed unrealistic. One of the things I really love about BSG is the way it develops the stories and more importantly it's characters. Watching this episode was like watching a readers digest version of BSG.

Don't get me wrong though, the premise was great, I just felt it wasn't nearly filled out enough. The tensions that would arise after bringing another Battle Star into the mix is almost endless. Particularly when the commanders are not on the same page (ei. Cylon torture, crew discipline, military oblectives etc.). The stories you could tell about integrating the Pegasus into the fleet should at least fill several eps.

Well, this is only part one of a two part episode. I expect the Cylons to jump in sometime in the next episode. I think looking at this as a single, on-its-own-ep is a mistake. Its a two parter stupidly separated by four months. Well, as much as BSG can be said to have two parters, i feel as if its like 24, one big timeline just broken up into episodes for TV purposes.


BTW, why didn't they talk about finding Earth. Shouldn't Admiral Cain have been informed on it's discovery? Where was the talk about the Cylon virus infecting netwoked Colonial ships? It seems Pegasus is a more advanced Battle star than Galactica. It's also equipped with the newer Vipers. Why wouldn't it be affected, did the Galactica even mention it was possibly Vulnerable? How about the different Cylon Models?

I'm guessing this will be dealt with in the second part.


As far as the finale, do you think Colonial soldiers would actually fire upon each other? (IMHO Adama did escalate the situation unneccesarily) It's not like there's many of them left. I could see both crews refusing to follow their commanders orders. I mean what's the Pegasus crew going to do? Go down on a hail of fire against the few human survivors of a holocaust? People ultimately want to survive. The Galactica and the rest of the fleet present the best possiblity of that future. It's also something the Pegasus crew obviously doesn't have.
I was cheering when Adama send out the Marines and the Vipers. Cain is lost in her military training, she's lost her humanity. What's the point of fighting the Cylons when you become them? Adama did the right thing. He stuck up for humanity. I expect the civilian ships in part two to block the Galactica from attack.

Sauce
September 23rd, 2005, 09:12 PM
Originally Posted by FeloniousMonk
ok, for an actual analysis of this episode:

This was easily one of the most intense episodes I've seen. Even without the spoilers I knew exactly what would happen when Cain took charge; someone was bound to get transferred and there's no way the past indescretions of Apollo & Co. were going to be ingnored. I know people are upset about what Cain did but try looking at the situation from her perspective.

I agree, in splitting up the crews your splitting up the loyalties. Leaving the crews alone could eventually lead to a situation like ancient Rome, where the legions were more loyal to their commanders than the Roman Republic. Or in a contemporary example, Somalia or Afghanistan. Countries ruled by warlords.

ronsmytheiii
September 23rd, 2005, 09:14 PM
A US aircraft carrier has the power of a small air force and a single carrier can theoretically launch an attack on over 90% of the land mass on earth. Protected by a pair of guided missle cruisers, multiple destoyers, frigates, supply ships, and no doubt at least a pair of hunter/killer submarines (and quite possibly a boomer, but we'd never know it), an aircraft carrier is probably the most strongly defended piece of sovereign American land there is. The Admiral of such a battle group is able to strike nearly any place on the planet with a multitude of weapons, some of them massively destructive. The Admiral of a battle group has the ability, if not direct authority, to launch an array of nuclear weapons that can reach any point on this planet.


What keeps a power hungry Admiral from going nuts and thinking he can control the whole world? Well, the fact that there eleven other battle groups probably has something to do with it....but the main reason is the chain of command. A CVBG Admiral can't use his destructive force without authorization from a higher power, namely the President of the United States (and of course, Congress and the joint chiefs). If a crazy Admiral decided to go crazy and bomb Paris (because that would be so much damn fun....seriously ) he wouldn't be able to because a single order from a higher Admiral sitting behind a desk in the Pentagon would override it. Even if that higher brass didn't have a single weapon at his disposal an attack still wouldn't happen because the crews of those ships would realize that the chain of command was ordering them to disobey the crazy orders of a kooky Admiral.

WTF, where did you get this?

Oh, and I live near a base that houses 5 carrier battle groups, but the flag ship is a modified cargo ship for command and Control.

Whats the new Cylon ship? Cylon ultra longrange Wifi?

zats
September 23rd, 2005, 09:16 PM
My point is that bigger guns don't mean a thing if you can't actually pull the trigger on them. Even in the situation the Pegasus is facing I doubt they'd all be willing to simply write off the rest of humanity by disobeying a direct order from the President of the Colonies....even if she is just a schoolteacher.
I stand corrected and bow [well, nod] to your superior intellect.

Well...no, actually, I don't:

There are currently three people in the fleet with Power at Their Disposal: Cain, Adama, and Roz. Cain, at the moment, has the biggest, fastest, and most lethal ship. Adama has a loyal battlestar but has been severely crippled by the [temporary] loss of Apollo and Starbuck, not to mention however many of Cain's men are running around on Galactica. Roz has Adama [see previous] and the Quorum, who have already amply proved that they can't do didly squat other than press conferances.

My point being that in this situation there is no override because these people have three very different power bases and yet all want/need to be in command.

And Roz is NOT just a schoolteacher!

:P

[Sorry if this winds up sounding overly indignant; it's not intended.]

P.S. Cool stuff on the carrier group, thanks!

FeloniousMonk
September 23rd, 2005, 09:19 PM
WTF, where did you get this?

Oh, and I live near a base that houses 5 carrier battle groups, but the flag ship is a modified cargo ship for command and Control.

Whats the new Cylon ship? Cylon ultra longrange Wifi?
Get what? :confused:

Technically the flag ship is wherever the highest ranked flag officer is on board...though it's usually the carrier's CDC. Where do you live?

I'm thinking it's a decoy like Adama said. A very tempting target...the Cylons may have just filled a ship with explosives, waiting for Galactica to send in fighters to take it down then detonate the thing and destory the CAP. :eek:

spg_1983
September 23rd, 2005, 09:20 PM
As brutal as it seems, how would you react after billions of your countrymen were obliterated in cold blood? I can't say I agree with that behavior, but then again I haven't seen my world blown up in a mushroom cloud.
it doesnt matter what they did, you dont go there. by stooping to that level they justified everything the cylons have said about us and made them right. you want to kill her, fine she is an enemy and wiped out the rest of the human race. you want to torture her for information, smack her around, very distasteful, but under the circumstances neccasary. but when you start condoning rape of a prisoner, and opening it up for the crew to do for fun, then you have become a monster. Every crew member that took part in it should be put out an airlock, and Cain should be as well for condoning it.

zats
September 23rd, 2005, 09:22 PM
I'm thinking it's a decoy like Adama said. A very tempting target...the Cylons may have just filled a ship with explosives, waiting for Galactica to send in fighters to take it down then detonate the thing and destory the CAP. :eek:
Wow, that'd be...not fun. :(

And I think they meant the info on the carrier group.

Sauce
September 23rd, 2005, 09:24 PM
I found Kara's interrogation of Leoben to be questionable but not over the line. I found Roslin's "airlock that trash" attitude towards Leoben (and later Sharon) to be surprising but sort of understandable. And yet systematic torture and rape crosses the line.

Pegasus obviously sees the cylons as machines, killing machines to be exact. If you refuse to bestow the Cylons with any humanity, how could you actually abuse them? BTW what would you call the water "interogation" Kara put Leobon thru? How about the beatings? It looked like torture to me.

FeloniousMonk
September 23rd, 2005, 09:25 PM
I stand corrected and bow [well, nod] to your superior intellect. Well...no, actually, I don't:

There are three people in the fleet with Power at Their Disposal: Cain, Adama, and Roz. Cain, at the moment, has the biggest, fastest, and most lethal ship. Adama has a loyal battlestar but has been severely crippled by the [temporary] loss of Apollo and Starbuck, not to mention however many of Cain's men are running around on Galactica. Roz has Adama (see previous) and the Quorum, who have already amply proved that they can't do didly squat other than press conferances.

My point being that there is no override because these people have three very different power bases and yet all want/need to be in command.

And Roz is NOT just a schoolteacher!

:P

[Sorry if this winds up sounding overly indignant; it's not intended.]
I would never claim to have superior intellect to anyone. :p Superior trivial knowledge that serves little purpose outside of rambling on the internet...oh yeah, I ****ing RULE in that arena. :D

I understand that they all want to be in command but from the looks of it Cain is relying on her military training to pull her through, just as her officers have done. If that's the case, if she really is following her training to the letter and doing what she feels is right by the code of ethics ingrained in her since basic training then she would feel at least partially compelled to accept Roslin's authority.

Now this is assuming that the whole basis behind her being such a cold hearted ***** is that a lone Battlestar would have to rely solely on its' military training to survive. If, on the other hand, she was a rotten ***** from the get go then she may just be a power hungry girl meeting up with the fleet during the wrong weekend of the month.

I just think that bringing Roslin into the argument would've helped cool it down a bit...either that or it would've blown up in their faces. Though I doubt Cain, or anyone for that matter, would simply leave the fleet high and dry by taking out the Galactica, knocking off the Prez, and the FTLing the hell outta there.

But I could be wrong. :)

FeloniousMonk
September 23rd, 2005, 09:27 PM
it doesnt matter what they did, you dont go there. by stooping to that level they justified everything the cylons have said about us and made them right. you want to kill her, fine she is an enemy and wiped out the rest of the human race. you want to torture her for information, smack her around, very distasteful, but under the circumstances neccasary. but when you start condoning rape of a prisoner, and opening it up for the crew to do for fun, then you have become a monster. Every crew member that took part in it should be put out an airlock, and Cain should be as well for condoning it.
You have to realize that many of them see her as just a machine. Might as well be a blow up doll or something; they never had a Boomer to bond with and think "hey, maybe they're not just a bunch of wires and code..."

To them the Cylons are just robots. Raping a human being is one thing, sticking your dick in a toaster may be damn weird but it ain't rape.

FeloniousMonk
September 23rd, 2005, 09:31 PM
It looked like torture to me.
eh, that was some of the weakest "torture" I've ever seen :p

systematically chop off the ends of each finger and toe, use needles to slice the cornea, lop off the ears and eyelids, castration, spot electrocution, rosie o'donnell....now those are forms of torture. a few punches and a bucket of water? c'mon, I've seen frat boys do worse :D

Sauce
September 23rd, 2005, 09:34 PM
eh, that was some of the weakest "torture" I've ever seen

systematically chop off the ends of each finger and toe, use needles to slice the cornea, lop off the ears and eyelids, castration, spot electrocution, rosie o'donnell....now those are forms of torture. a few punches and a bucket of water? c'mon, I've seen frat boys do worse

Didn't Rush Limbaugh say the same thing about Abu Ghraib? Yuck.

spg_1983
September 23rd, 2005, 09:37 PM
You have to realize that many of them see her as just a machine. Might as well be a blow up doll or something; they never had a Boomer to bond with and think "hey, maybe they're not just a bunch of wires and code..."

To them the Cylons are just robots. Raping a human being is one thing, sticking your dick in a toaster may be damn weird but it ain't rape.no it still is rape. they took pleasure in the fact that they were violating the cylon. it doesnt matter if it was human or not, it is the sick twisted mentality behind the act of doing it. they did it to violate and hurt the cylon and by doing so the gave up their humanity. i get what you are saying, and if they were just humping an electrical socket because they were lonely, thats fine, but the made the choice to force themselves on her/it/whatever for the purpose of violating it, there is no excuse for it, it is an inhuman act. they showed that they were ready, willing, and able to do it already, whats to stop them from doing it to cally? or kara? or dee? or roslin? they are sick disgusting creatures and by doing that justified the cylons. i know if i was a member of that crew or fleet and found out about that, i would be thinking about giving the cylons a call.

FeloniousMonk
September 23rd, 2005, 09:37 PM
Didn't Rush Limbaugh say the same thing about Abu Ghraib? Yuck.
Wouldn't know, I've never listened to that guy. Abu Ghraib was bad in its' own right...but torture? Barely.

To be honest I don't think most Americans can comprehend true torture. Real torture always includes removing body parts. :p

Amanda Eros
September 23rd, 2005, 09:38 PM
That was a very intense episode! I really really really hate anything that has to deal with Rape. I hope that those Peg hell bound Son of B****** get what's coming to them. Personally anyone who rapes another deserves either one of two fates. Be raped themselves equall to the amount that they inflicted or be compleatly and totally disarmed of their weapon of choice.

However that episode did have my heart racing. If I was Adama, I would have given the order to have the fleet jump as soon as I retreaved the rest of my crew and send a rapter and the Black bird out to retreave Apollo. Then I would have thrown the Peg crew into the brig and interigate each of them to find out what type of crimes they committeed. Then have them sent to the Astral Queen to await trail. Unless the crew were female and had nothing to do with the rapes, then I would leave them in the brig until they went to trial.

FeloniousMonk
September 23rd, 2005, 09:45 PM
no it still is rape. they took pleasure in the fact that they were violating the cylon. it doesnt matter if it was human or not, it is the sick twisted mentality behind the act of doing it. they did it to violate and hurt the cylon and by doing so the gave up their humanity. i get what you are saying, and if they were just humping an electrical socket because they were lonely, thats fine, but the made the choice to force themselves on her/it/whatever for the purpose of violating it, there is no excuse for it, it is an inhuman act. they showed that they were ready, willing, and able to do it already, whats to stop them from doing it to cally? or kara? or dee? or roslin? they are sick disgusting creatures and by doing that justified the cylons. i know if i was a member of that crew or fleet and found out about that, i would be thinking about giving the cylons a call.
Well it's not really an inhuman act. Considering humans do it quite often I'd say it isn't an inhuman act at all. Nor is it an unnatural act; what we call "rape" occurs naturally in the animal kingdom quite frequently, more often than many would like to admit. Now with our ability to reason and thus our nearly unanimous conclusion that each human has a right to their own body, rape becomes an immoral act.

But only when commited against another living creature. If someone invented a Fleshlight that could attach to your computer for some unholy reason, it still wouldn't be rape. A machine is still a machine in the eyes of many. The scene bothered me for two reasons:

A. I've been close to a rape victim and thus the mere mention of it manages to send a tingle up my spine at the thought without fail. Despite it being a natural act my ability to reason brings out a pretty nasty emotional response.

and

2. Despite the fact that I still view Sharon as nothing more than a really complicated robot, I understand that Tyrol and Helo have strong connections to her that, were I in either of their shoes, I would likely also feel. That scene made me feel for them more than Sharon.

What's to stop them from doing it to the girls you mentioned? The fact that the girls you mentioned are, at least at this point, known to be human as opposed to toasters. ;)

spg_1983
September 23rd, 2005, 09:49 PM
Well it's not really an inhuman act. Considering humans do it quite often I'd say it isn't an inhuman act at all. Nor is it an unnatural act; what we call "rape" occurs naturally in the animal kingdom quite frequently, more often than many would like to admit. Now with our ability to reason and thus our nearly unanimous conclusion that each human has a right to their own body, rape becomes an immoral act.

But only when commited against another living creature. If someone invented a Fleshlight that could attach to your computer for some unholy reason, it still wouldn't be rape. A machine is still a machine in the eyes of many. The scene bothered me for two reasons:

A. I've been close to a rape victim and thus the mere mention of it manages to send a tingle up my spine at the thought without fail. Despite it being a natural act my ability to reason brings out a pretty nasty emotional response.

and

2. Despite the fact that I still view Sharon as nothing more than a really complicated robot, I understand that Tyrol and Helo have strong connections to her that, were I in either of their shoes, I would likely also feel. That scene made me feel for them more than Sharon.

What's to stop them from doing it to the girls you mentioned? The fact that the girls you mentioned are, at least at this point, known to be human as opposed to toasters. ;)wow the very fact that you would think what they did was ok or natural is more disturbing than the fact that they did that in the show. The show is just that, a show. but you are a real person and you condoning rape. that is disgusting and so are you, im not even going to continue this discussion with you you sick freak.

Amanda Eros
September 23rd, 2005, 09:50 PM
WTF, where did you get this?

Oh, and I live near a base that houses 5 carrier battle groups, but the flag ship is a modified cargo ship for command and Control.

Whats the new Cylon ship? Cylon ultra longrange Wifi?

My guess is that it is a trap. If Peg hasn't been affected by the Cylon virus yet, then I'm thinking that they are using Peg and want them to find the fleet to turn her weapons against Galatica.

anotherquestion
September 23rd, 2005, 09:50 PM
This episode shows what can happen when the military universe collapses in on itself to a very small group that must survive "in detached deployment" by discipline alone. In a larger sense it is about the danger of tunnel vision leading one astray during crisis situations when one's scope of control, and options are limited.

Adama was much the same as Cain in the mini-series, he was balls-out ready for attacking the Cylons regardless of the odds or the probability of a favorable outcome. The blood lust was full up, it took Roslin's intervention to rein him in (and his growing sense of responsibility for a larger "family", the fleet, to care for).

Cain lacked that counterbalance of the civilian fleet, and the corresponding stewardship for its safety. Nevertheless, Cain's first impluse was for self preservation, not a self-immolation attack that Adama was contemplating. She still thinks in terms of "hit and run" tactics, and has, obviously, honed the fighting skills of her crew to a razor's edge. She has obviously kept her militay assets intact, so much so that she is able to resupply BSG with spare parts and other impossible-to-duplicate items. She seems to enjoy the respect of her subourdinates, a respect that seems to extend beyond a sense of fear. It's odd we didn't see many female soldiers or pilots among her crews complement.

What, may I ask, was so wrong with keeping a scorecard on the Vipers? It's been a time-honored tradition in our armed services, and, very likely, does increase morale and the competitive spirit among the pilots. The Cylons are clearly the enemy of humanity and we have seen the crew of the Gallactica slaughter them in abundance, just as the Cylons slaughtered the twelve colonies. It's not like they're keeping a necklace of ears or scalps. Starbuck's reaction to the practice was childish and parochial (we don't do that here, so it isn't the right thing to do) in typical Starbuck fashion. Both of the respective crews seem to bristle with a myopic vision of "it's my way or the highway". BSG's crew is not innocent in this regard.

What's remarkable in most of the posts in this thread is the sympathy toward the Cylon prisoners. In the last episode we witnessed an entire Cylon fleet massacred without compunction. Think about it--thousands of Cylons, many likely to be the human models on the larger Raiders, torn apart while they were helpless to retreat or defend themselves. This was just last week. I can understand the response of Helo and the Chief to the assault on Sharon, they both have a lot invested in the Sharon they both loved, but the response of the many posts on the thread seems to extend the milk of human kindness only to those Cylons we've met up close and personal, not the dehumanized toasters that are disposed of by the hundreds.

Cain's actions were, almost certainly, entirely legal and may well be within the spirit of the law as well. A beautiful Cylon is still not a human being, it is a predator of human beings. The one tortured on Pegasus is a known killer of seven human beings. Cain and her crew have only known Cylons as predators, never saviours or protectors of humanity. From their perspective, no rape has occured because you cannot rape a machine, but you can be fracked to death by one (think of number 6's kiss in the opening of the miniseries).

What does death mean to a Cylon, at any rate? It seems no more than a temporary blip in their otherwise continuous stream of conciousness, as they download their memories and experiences to their next incarnation. Cylons are effectively immortal. You could make a case that torture, or some kind of immediate experiential distress, is the only effective interrogative tool for a Cylon. We've kept our sympathies for Starbuck, even after she tortured Leoban. Baltar actually tortured the Chief to increase the stress level for Sharon. Both actions extracted information. This is very slippery ground the series is treading upon. Our own myopia is at play. If we were following the exploits of the Pegasus and its crew as closely as we have been following BSG, we might have had much more sympathy for Cain's views, discipline, and abilities. As Adama explained "context matters".

Doubtless both Viper groups will be called off their mutually assured destructive path when the season resumes in January. Either Adama will stand down, or an intervening Cylon attack will providentially provide the "Machina Ex Machina" event to unite both Battlestar's in a joint defense, ending in the destruction, or the permanent(?) withdrawal, of the Pegasus.

My guess about the unknown Cylon vessel is that it houses the dormant bodies of the human Cylon models, waiting to receive the conciousness of others. That's why then next episode is named "Resurrection Ship". RDM seems to like the idea of the tiltles reflecting mulitple meanings. "Final Cut" was the final edit of the video, the final decision of the D'anna about what to disclose and what to edit out of the story of the fleet, and the final "jab" at the audience when a new Cylon is revealed at the end. "Home" refers to Kobol (the birthplace of us all) and the reunification of the fleet (I'm going to bring them home, said Adama). "Resurrection Ship" also has multiple meanings, implying that one Battlestar survives through the end of the episode, and, also that the large Cylon vessel contains the "resurrected" bodies of the human Cylons as they transfer conciousness at the moment of death.

Arative
September 23rd, 2005, 09:51 PM
This was easily one of the best episodes of the series, if not one of the best episodes of any sci-fi show that I have seen. When I saw the 6 model laying on the floor, I knew they beat her but I had no idea that they had been raping her and the entire crew taking turns on her. It turned my stomach because it showed the depths that human dapravity can sink too. The 6 in Baltar's head with tears in her eyes at what had been done to a fellow cylon, to herself essential was brillant. Really parallels the current discussion of the treatment of prisoners of war.

And that got me thinking that, the Galatica crew could had easily been the same as the Pegasus' crew had they not had the civilan fleet to look after. Protecting innocent lives gave the Galatica crew a purpose but I think that all the Pegasus' crew had was the fight and it turned them into animals. When all you have is revenge, it strips away your humanity. Cain certinally seems to be insane, for a lack of a better word. I don't know the inner workings of the colonies miltary structure but I would think that Roslin would actually be in charge. I know her and Adama have an agreement that he runs the miltary, she runs the civilan fleet but still Cain is doing everything by regulations, so shouldn't Cain defer to the President? And couldn't the President relieve Cain of command?

Another thought that I've sort of been formulating over the past season and half, I keep thinking how much are the cylons are manipulating the rag tag fleet? We've caught glimpses of how the cylons were regarded before the war, as slaves and just another piece of equipment. Sharon's sole purpose seems to be to get the humans to regard cylons as people, someone to respect, basically as equals. The first Sharon tried to kill Adama, basically everyone some respects and considers a father figure. Cally certainly felt justified in killing that Sharon. Enter Helo's Sharon. She gets Helo to fall in love with her, to accept her. Then she gets Starbuck to trust her by helping out in Farm. Then she gets Adama and pretty much the rest of the Galatica crew to trust her by taking out the cylon fleet with that virus. Cally was sickened by what the Pegasus crew had done to a cylon. It at least shows that the Galatica crew are starting to regard at least the human model cylons as something other than just toasters.

I keep asking myself everytime something happens that involves cylons, how much of that is by chance and how much is by design? I mean the cylons let Sharon blow up a basestar, only to turn around and have that Sharon shoot Adama but worked it so another Sharon model came aboard and make so crew might come to accpet that Sharon. In the Final Cut, on the last scene, that Sharon model was surprised that the other Sharon was still alive. The 6 in Baltar's head seems intent on making Baltar a willing partner in helping the cylons and getting him to see them as more than toasters. And Baltar seems to have come to see the cylons are something more than just slaves.

I have to say that BSG is probably one the best sci-fi series that I have seen and its a shame that just because its sci-fi it doesn't have a wider audience.

FeloniousMonk
September 23rd, 2005, 09:56 PM
wow the very fact that you would think what they did was ok or natural is more disturbing than the fact that they did that in the show. The show is just that, a show. but you are a real person and you condoning rape. that is disgusting and so are you, im not even going to continue this discussion with you you sick freak.
lol wtf hahahahaha

I'm not condoning rape, I'm just denying the claim that it's unnatural. Dolphin mating rituals are almost always in the form of gang rapes. Male wolves, lions, chimps, even rodents are all known to engage in intercourse with females who would otherwise be unwilling. It happens all the time in nature. The only reason it's immoral to us is because we make it so.

Now don't think that my clinical analysis of that makes me disagree with that sense of morality. Like I said, I'm very close to a rape victim and I have long been an advocate of lifetime incarceration for convicted rapists (I would also agree with castration if not for the fact that many jailed rapists are in fact innocent victims of lying women). I don't condone it, I just don't call it an inhuman and unnatural act when scientific study of the animal kingdom proves otherwise.

SlytherinGal
September 23rd, 2005, 09:57 PM
I thought the eppy was great!

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but back in the original BSG, Baltar took "command" so to speak of a Cylon fleet called the Pegasus, do you think something like that will happen now??

Amanda Eros
September 23rd, 2005, 10:07 PM
Did anyone else feel that something wasn't right when one of the first things that Cain said was something along the lines of "it's good to have you join the Colonial Fleet." When I heard that I was like, aren't they joining the Colonial Fleet? About 45,000 people are out there, the Peg couldn't have more than 5,000 people there unless I missed some ships there.

It also made me wonder if when that citizen crew man told them that he was taken off of one of the other ships, if the Peg didn't only take in those who could be useful to them. Then disregard everyone else since they were at war. In other words the civilian ships would hold it back, and were seen as a hinderance.

Amanda Eros
September 23rd, 2005, 10:12 PM
Wouldn't Cain defer to Roslyn since she is the president? Well, if she respected her, perhaps... but since she isn't even taking her calls then how could Roslyn ever even give her an order if she isn't willing to listen?

Sauce
September 23rd, 2005, 10:29 PM
Did anyone else feel that something wasn't right when one of the first things that Cain said was something along the lines of "it's good to have you join the Colonial Fleet." When I heard that I was like, aren't they joining the Colonial Fleet? About 45,000 people are out there, the Peg couldn't have more than 5,000 people there unless I missed some ships there.

It also made me wonder if when that citizen crew man told them that he was taken off of one of the other ships, if the Peg didn't only take in those who could be useful to them. Then disregard everyone else since they were at war. In other words the civilian ships would hold it back, and were seen as a hinderance.

The thought did cross my mind. Unlike Adama she has no Roselyn to keep her in check. She also seems to have no use for Civilian authority or needs.

Sauce
September 23rd, 2005, 10:40 PM
Couple quick thoughts....The way Baltar's Six reacted really does make me think she's a part of his imagination. He obviously was horrified to see the tortured six, therefore his subconcious "Six" responded the same way.

Also did anybody notice Cain is accompanied by armed Marines at all times? Even Adama doesn't keep an escort like that. And he has a reason to.

Where is the Quorom of 12? Wouldn't they want to weigh in on a new Military commander? How about the Press?

Why didn't Roselyn press her authority with Cain? Couldn't she have promoted Adama to Admiral of the Fleet? If she can't, who can? Pegasus shows up and everyone who's battled together for months capitulates so easily?

Freyr Vanir
September 23rd, 2005, 10:41 PM
IMO there is a huge diffrence on how you treat a person when both of you are holding a guns at each other and how you treat a prisoner. How you treat your weak(Mentaily ill and the like) and your defeated enemies show how good of a civilization you are. Cain and her crew are what we never want to be IMO. Even tho all over the world(USA included) there are people in power that would do stuff like that at the drop of a hat.

Also listen to the podcast for this episode. http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/
They had to cut over 15 minutes cut from the episode. They wanted to make it a 90Min episode but it didn't happen. A lot of the thing people are saying they wish had happen did but had to be cut. Moore said tho that the season DVDs will have the uncut version :).

alaskannut
September 23rd, 2005, 10:58 PM
GAHHHHHHH!!!!!!


that will be all

DHD
September 23rd, 2005, 11:01 PM
Ok first, it is strange seeing Michelle Forbes on TV, God she has changed since TNG. Second, With the Pegasus being one of the newer Battlestars, one would think that Baltars CMD program would be in the computers, And while it may be a act of "treason" it would put both the Pegasus and the Mark 7 Vipers at a serious disadvanage, that is assuming that Galactica has a copy of it floating around, and if not I am sure 'boomer' may have a copy in her somewhere. I feel it may be advantagious for them to put that ***** in check with her attitude and her sadistic Diety complex. As for turning Pegasus into scrap, perhaps, but one would figure that it may be a good idea to caniblize the ship for parts, The Galactica IS 50+ years old, I am sure the ship could use some upgrades that wouldn't put her in any danger from the cylon virus, and as for the crew, while they represent the worst of the human race with bigotry, hatred and so forth, they are only trying to survive like Galactica, and unlike Galactica, Pegasus didn't have a voice of consious like Adama had with the president and 45000 plus people in the fleet. I feel that while the admiral needs to be used to wipe the hull of Galactica, the crew of Pegasus needs to be given the choice of joining Galactica's crew and following orders of the soon to be promoted Adama, and the CAG, they should also bring over the Raptors, Vipers and whatever other ships and ordinance and canibilize all the parts from Pegasus cause she is a danger cause of the flaws with the CMD program and the networked computer system.

David
September 23rd, 2005, 11:01 PM
The president has the power to issue pardons for both the men. Adama would've went to her first. Unrealistic.

DHD
September 23rd, 2005, 11:03 PM
The president has the power to issue pardons for both the men. Adama would've went to her first. Unrealistic.


Perhaps, but if you missed it, Roslyn said that Cain wasn't taking phone calls, and Cain seems to be hell bent on doing things her own way no matter what the results.

SG-1ssm
September 23rd, 2005, 11:08 PM
I think this was one of the best episodes to date. The plot was very good, and it is hard to see who is right, Adama or Kay. I side with Adama obvisiouly because he is a main character and I agree more with his point of view.

The next episode is going to be great, but I don't think there is going to be a battle. I think that Adama and Kay will yell at each other over the phone for most of the episode and at the end Kay will hand over the chief and whats-his-face, and then the main fleet will jump away.

I personally didn't like season 1 very much but season 2 is a lot better now that its not all about Gaus and #6.

NK1969
September 23rd, 2005, 11:11 PM
I loved this episode. One of the things I've always loved about BSG is that it's not traditional science fiction that relies on gizmos and gadgets. There's an element of reality in it.

Being a veteran of the US Navy who served aboard an aircraft carrier prior to the first Gulf War I'm struck by the accuracies/parallels depicted in BSG. They are many elements in Galactica's operations and crew life that hold true to my memories of being a carrier sailor.

I have to say that I bristled when the Pegasus XO referred to Galactica as an "old bucket". Pegasus may be newer, but not necessarily better in battle. (OT: I wonder why her computers weren't hacked?) My own ship was a post-Korean war class of carrier nearing retirement that did quite well in a wargame against a state-of-the-art Nimitz class carrier.

As for the actions of the crews, minus the tortures and rape (which were appalling to me) I can well relate to the breakdown of morale, discipline and even the very morality of both crews - I've seen it happen firsthand. Conflicts aboard my ship often erupted over the stupidest things and were justified as "just blowing off steam".

I think leadership has given the Galactica crew the edge over Pegasus though. Cain is clearly a loose cannon who got where she was by being aggressive and overly demanding of her subordinates. BTW, I do think that she shot her original XO. Just look how easily she justified her actions throughout the whole episode? I also think that the Marine guard is her way of exerting her dominance, like her own personal gestapo.

DHD
September 23rd, 2005, 11:17 PM
Pegasus though. Cain is clearly a loose cannon who got where she was by being aggressive and overly demanding of her subordinates. BTW, I do think that she shot her original XO. Just look how easily she justified her actions throughout the whole episode? I also think that the Marine guard is her way of exerting her dominance, like her own personal gestapo.

While I am forced to agree with you about how it is on a ship (Coast Guard), It still doesn't justify any of the actions. I have seen hardliner Admirals, and Captains, but when it comes down to it, just because there is no higher authority, there is ALWAYS someone will to step up to the challange. Cain made one fatal flaw, She is going nose to nose with Adama, He has more years of experience with him, he is in a seriously battle tested ship, a loyal and well trained and very close crew. And finally it goes back to the networked computers and the CMD program of Baltars that is onboard Pegasus ,Mark 7 vipers that is on Pegasus and the Raptors.

Natron
September 23rd, 2005, 11:22 PM
Can the President give an order to an officer? Doesn't the order have to go through the proper chain of command?

I'm pretty sure that, in the US, the President cannot give a command to anyone below the Joint Chiefs. Of course, I don't know if the Colonial Fleet operates the same way, and there are obviously no Joint Chiefs, but at least what I know from the West Wing is that the President gives an order to the Joint Chiefs, and the Joint Chiefs begin the process of carrying out that order.

Of course, I could be wrong.

SG-1ssm
September 23rd, 2005, 11:26 PM
Sorry wong place.

*reposting in proper forum*

SG-1ssm
September 23rd, 2005, 11:28 PM
Wow, that thing on her face annoyed the crap out of me

Ya, me too.

I think this was one of the best episodes to date. The plot was very good, and it is hard to see who is right, Adama or Kay. I side with Adama obvisiouly because he is a main character and I agree more with his point of view.

The next episode is going to be great, but I don't think there is going to be a battle. I think that Adama and Kay will yell at each other over the phone for most of the episode and at the end Kay will hand over the chief and whats-his-face, and then the main fleet will jump away.

I personally didn't like season 1 very much but season 2 is a lot better now that its not all about Gaus and #6.

SG-1ssm
September 23rd, 2005, 11:34 PM
if i were Adama. as soon as Cain started being an ass, i would have gotten all my crew back on board, and order the entire fleet to do a FTL jump, then i would calculate a new one and jump again, and forget i ever saw the pegasus... then if anyone asked why i did it, i would say that the pegasus was under the controll of cylons

That would be my reaction too, except I would have waited a little longer, until about where the episode left off. Then I would do exactly that and leave a couple off small supprises. Not enough to hunt the ship, just enough to say, Cein you (beep).

Amakusa
September 23rd, 2005, 11:38 PM
I agree, this episode... no, this season is way better than the first now that the Sex Sells schtick is taking a back seat.

When the scene with Adama and Cally came up in the hall, I knew that was the point where Adama was going to snap and bring his family back together, or die trying. Very consistent with the conclusion of the Kobol story.

Admiral Cain reminds me a bit of Admiral Tolwyn from the Wing Commander computer game series. He was a major hard-ass to your character, but always had the good of humanity in his heart. Until the fourth game, that is, when the war was finally over, and he started inventing a new war to maintain power for the sake of protecting humanity (by attacking his own people with genetically-engineered superfreaks). This strong desire to survive was so maddening it reached a boiling point where humanity's survival was being determined by someone who lost their humanity in the process.

SG-1ssm
September 23rd, 2005, 11:38 PM
Great episode, pissesd we will have to wait for so long for part 2! My only question is doesn't the President have any power over the Admiral?

Offically and techically yes, but really she doesn't have that much power. She could give those two guy (sorry I can't remember their names) a Presidental pardon, but I doubt Cein would honor it.

Excali5033
September 23rd, 2005, 11:39 PM
By the GODS Moore and Eick know what buttons to push. Four-month cliffhangers are the devil.

I completely agree with DHD, Pegasus needs a dose of Cylon virus. Tyrol and Helo are more awesome than ever in my book, and Tyrol's already one of my faves (guess I kind of relate to him, heh).

Argh...January...

osufanboy
September 23rd, 2005, 11:43 PM
Can the President give an order to an officer? Doesn't the order have to go through the proper chain of command?

I'm pretty sure that, in the US, the President cannot give a command to anyone below the Joint Chiefs. Of course, I don't know if the Colonial Fleet operates the same way, and there are obviously no Joint Chiefs, but at least what I know from the West Wing is that the President gives an order to the Joint Chiefs, and the Joint Chiefs begin the process of carrying out that order.

Of course, I could be wrong.

The US President is Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. He can give a command to anyone in the military. As for the show...


One thing nobody's mentioned- has anyone noticed that Pegasus is closer in design to the original series (Galactica and Pegasus)? Except for a few differences it's almost a spitting image of the original. And just a couple episodes ago they played the original theme. I grew up on the original series, and while this one is so much better, it's nice to see them give tribute to the first.

Crichton
September 23rd, 2005, 11:44 PM
I was completly blown away by this episode. Going into specifics would be pointless, I was really emotionally invested in multiple aspects of the story. It was a vey powerful episode and I have mixed feelings about how to view the human race and the cylons as far as good guys and bad guys. Excellent, excellent episode.

alaskannut
September 24th, 2005, 12:04 AM
My own ship was a post-Korean war class of carrier nearing retirement that did quite well in a wargame against a state-of-the-art Nimitz class carrier.

OT :o ....Forrestal, Oriskany or Midway class??

SG-1ssm
September 24th, 2005, 12:04 AM
Regarding the torture thing: what the crew of the Pegasus did it way over the edge. I can understand interrogating for information, but not mindless torter for "fun."

BGS does it the better way using the carret insted of the wipe.

SlytherinGal
September 24th, 2005, 12:08 AM
Something just didn't seem right with the Pegasus...I mean, how can a ship survive coming all the way to find Galactica and not have a single scratch on them from a cylon attack. I mean, IMO, the crew of Pegasus (at least a few like Cain and such) are cylons.

FeloniousMonk
September 24th, 2005, 12:41 AM
He has more years of experience with him, he is in a seriously battle tested ship
and we know this how? Cain's an admiral and for all we know has a full decade on Adama in seniority; Adama left the fleet, remember? Cain may look young but she could and likely is the more experienced officer.


Can the President give an order to an officer? Doesn't the order have to go through the proper chain of command?

I'm pretty sure that, in the US, the President cannot give a command to anyone below the Joint Chiefs. Of course, I don't know if the Colonial Fleet operates the same way, and there are obviously no Joint Chiefs, but at least what I know from the West Wing is that the President gives an order to the Joint Chiefs, and the Joint Chiefs begin the process of carrying out that order.

Of course, I could be wrong.

For an order in the sense of sending the Marines into a hot zone or deploying a battle group to a particular region, yes the orders go through the Joint Chiefs. But if a Navy Lieutenant just happens to be in the White House and the President orders him to stand guard somewhere, the order is literally coming from the highest possible point in the chain.

FeloniousMonk
September 24th, 2005, 12:44 AM
two things: y'all keep talking about the pegasus crew as if we've seen them all. there are probably thousands of people on that ship and at most we've seen bad attitudes from a dozen of them. just because we were shown the worst examples of the ship doesn't mean that everyone there is a douche and a half

also, the torture thing still seems fairly light. considering they see cylons as just machines i'd imagine some real torture going on. something like removal of a hand, one finger at a time. if you don't lose a body part it's not real torture! :p

Freyr Vanir
September 24th, 2005, 12:57 AM
two things: y'all keep talking about the pegasus crew as if we've seen them all. there are probably thousands of people on that ship and at most we've seen bad attitudes from a dozen of them. just because we were shown the worst examples of the ship doesn't mean that everyone there is a douche and a half

also, the torture thing still seems fairly light. considering they see cylons as just machines i'd imagine some real torture going on. something like removal of a hand, one finger at a time. if you don't lose a body part it's not real torture! :p

It's torture, if the person/thing in question can feel pain it's torture.

Torture is the infliction of severe physical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain) or psychological pain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_pain) as an expression of cruelty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruelty), a means of intimidation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intimidation), deterrent or punishment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punishment), or as a tool for the extraction of information or confessions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confession).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture

Torturing for information is one of the most stupid ideas every thought of. A person in any type of pain will do anything to stop the pain, it might not happen instantly but everybody has a braking point. Given enough time you can get anybody to say/do anything you want them to do just to stop the pain, most likily giving false info.

Vorlon-1
September 24th, 2005, 01:01 AM
I hate them all for making me wait again in anticapation of the "Hows this gonna end"

The Pegasus was awsome. Damn state of the art...great job in portraying just how old and outdated the Galactica really is. Just wow. The experience goes to Adama. Him and his XO are war vets from the first war. Handling an older ship that is half turned into a museum. Responsible for an entire fleets protection and supplies. Remember in 33 the civilians were ready to give up from lack of sleep but Galacticas crew held in there. There is loyalty ther that cannot be replaced.


I am not going to speculate on the 2nd part but feel free to give me ideas anyway :p

MrManganese
September 24th, 2005, 01:23 AM
Best production I've ever seen, of anything, ever.

You can tell Cain has had serious difficulty maintaining order on her ship. She didn't shoot her second in command because she's evil and likes shooting people; she did it because she absolutely had to set an example in order to remain an effective officer. Just look at the Pegasus crew.. they're just itching for another kill, or some action in the sack. They're only human, and they didn't have an Earth to strive for, and the pressure on the Admiral must have been great (pressure, for instance, to allow "recreational" usage of the Cyclon captive). Making an example of her officer worked to an extent, and you can see the looks on the faces of the people in her CIC when she gives the order to launch Vipers against the Galactica. You know they think she's lost her mind, but they're all wondering if they'll be the next ones shot. The one officer who was chatting with Tigh looked about ready to commit mutiny (perhaps the thrilling, bloodless conclusion I'm expecting). It's obvious that Cain is doing everything in her power to keep the fleet [which is now much larger and less manageable, of course] functioning, and putting a couple of Galactica's crewmen to death makes complete sense under the circumstances. She defends her actions to Adama, saying that the fleet is in "a state of war," and thus desperate times call for desperate measures. It's a short-sighted view, but it lends a lot of credibility to her actions, but for how long can this state of war continue? Obviously, people can't handle it indefinitely without going as berzerk as the Pegasus crew, and desperate measures cannot become a way of life.

From the moment Cain steps off her shuttle and welcomes the Battlestar crew back to "the fleet," it begs the question of who is joining who. Does the Colonial fleet still exist because this woman says so? Nevermind ranks entirely - with one admiral and one commander, discussion of rank is purely academic. Why should a fleet exist in which the two highest ranks are essentially "Cain" and "Adama," wherein those two powers routinely disagree, and the "Adama" rank always and forever will defer to the "Cain" rank? The Commander has already demonstrated that he and the fleet can exist independently of a 'high command,' so if he turns the fleet over to Cain it is exclusively a choice on his part, not a matter of duty as he would make it seem.

And yet he does defer to Cain, in the good faith that she would read his logs and appreciate the difficulty and significance of the decisions he has made. For a while, I shared his faith that the two could work together, even with Adama as a subordinate. I love the old man, and I didn't want to see him take a back burner, but change is unavoidable, and the story made us confront that possibility seriously. I almost couldn't believe that Adama would turn his back on military hierarchy, but all attempts to reason with Cain failed and there was no promise anything would improve. It was that moment when Adama says to her, "That was a different time," attempting to remind her that each situation is too complex to deal with so brazenly. Cain responds almost self-righteously, "Yes, it was" as if Adama's entire command was a mistake that she is here to set straight. It's only then that Adama finally makes the decision to take a stand, and it's the most believable inner struggle I've ever seen in my life :eek:

I think it's been clear from the beginning that power in the fleet lies with the military, and whomever the military men and women choose to obey. If not from the beginning, then at least from the point of Adama closing the independent tribunal. Cain almost certainly sees that the president draws most of her power in the fleet from her strong tie to the Commander, which is a sign of the president's weakness by itself. And while Baltar can be counted on to play with fire, placing himself between two such formidable powers as Adama and Cain would be silly considering that he personally has very little leverage. In fact, he seems only to have as much leverage as he can ease out of someone with a cleverly devised speech. "Provide Dr. Baltar with whatever he needs." Gotta love the guy :rolleyes:

How can this stuff be so brilliantly created? O_o I was horrified at the thought of having to wait a whole week to see the conclusion to this episode, but I'm aghast to now find out that I have to wait several months. Somebody tell me I'm having a nightmare...

Carbito
September 24th, 2005, 01:32 AM
WOW!
I just finished watching it and I can say without a doubt that that is the best TV episode that I have ever seen. The wait till January is going to be torture, I will be counting the days.

This show is without a doubt the greatest thing ever!

Earth
September 24th, 2005, 06:32 AM
Awesome episode. I thought the last one was good, this one was fantastic. Im very interested to see what happens, the next episode is called Ressurection Ship - dont know if that gives any clues...

Cain is a died in the wool disciplinarian and Adama thinks of his crew as a family, there wont be any shots fired although i'd be happy to see Apollo shoot down the Pegasis CAG :]

I am SO gutted that we have to wait until January for the next episode.

Amanda Eros
September 24th, 2005, 06:43 AM
I have another theory. Theory is not a spoiler, but if you would like to treat it as such go ahead.

I asked myself how did they know that Six was a Cylon? Then I connected some dots. When the first offer was shot for disobeying an order, he might have told them. Meaning that Six and he were having a relationship, and he fell in love with her. They might have assumed she was a cylon, or perhaps they do have their own detection test. Or, it could be that perhaps he told Cain in private about six, and disobeying the order gave her the oppertunty to take care of him.

Earth
September 24th, 2005, 06:48 AM
Haha, I almost threw my monitor out of the window when "To Be Continued" came up. Noooooooooo :(

LOVED THIS EPISODE. Cain is a dyed in the wool disciplinarian and Adama thinks of his crew as family. The initial discussion between Cain, Adama and Roslin definately indicates some previous history between the two CO's.

The next episode is called Ressurection Ship, does that give away any clues!?!

Also lets not forget the cylon reporter who got a clear insight into how to hurt the Galactica.

Miracle
September 24th, 2005, 07:29 AM
Hello all! I'm new to the forum after last night BSG I just HAD to discuss this episode, it was awesome.

A few thoughts:
*****Spoiler Alert*****





Was the Pegasus alone? I didnt see any support ships when the camera panned to the Peg, so why did Admiral can say "Welcome to the fleet?"


So people opinions seem to be rather harsh toward the Peg and its crew regarding the "mission" at hand. Being a hardass doesnt necessarily make someone a bad person. Remember, Pegasus and Galactica are BATTLEstars that means military ships built for war. If you take some times and think about it the Galactica crew has become lax , Starbucks frequent outbursts, Capt Amade shouldnt even be a pilot, Cmdr. Amade ALLOWING a member of his crew to have a SEXUAL relationship with a KNOW cylon. The Galactic was becoming some kind of zoo on some kind of video game quest to find a legendary planet! The reality is: This is a War!! The Cylons destoyed a WHOLE planet! Women, childen everyone. With a highly advanced battlestar, a crew of military personal, and nothing to lose because of the cylon attack of course Adm. Cain had all the right to adapt a hard ass attitude. To a large extent she is correct in ordering those transfers. As much as we like those characters they have serious flaws when it comes to being officers on a military vessel.

Exactly what chance does the Galactica have against the Pegasus? Obviously the Peg is much more advanced with better fighters etc. Is the Peg much bigger than Galactica? We obviously know there has to be a big advantage with the Peg in a all out fight between the two because of the fact that the Peg has been routinely ATTACKING the cylon, even basestars and winning(their still alive)! Whereas the Galactica has been more or less defensive and jumping out when under attack. I dont ever remember Galactica challenging a base star head to head in a all out attack. Although I dont think they will attack each other, in theory chance would Galactica have to defeat the Peg?

Now, I dont condone rape or any form of it, but to the Peg crew that "6" model is NOT a human its a machine. So I can somewhat see where they are coming from. But I do think they are idiots for letting her deteriote into that pitiful condition. You would think those apes would not beat her and keep her looking good if they planned on raping her repeatedly. Dumbasses! A "6" model as we all know can be a very good looking cylon!

ShadowMaat
September 24th, 2005, 07:50 AM
Even in a whole SERIES full of intense episodes, this one stands out.

Wow.

I'm seeing a lot of shock over the treatment of the cylon prisoners and while I agree whole-heartedly (even a cylon prisoner is still a prisoner, IMO, and should be granted the same rights), I can see how Cain and her crew could do what they did.

As far as the Pegasus is concerned, cylons are not human- they have no feelings, no rights, no anything; they're just glorified toasters who have killed everyone they love and millions or even billions of innocent people- they've destroyed the lives of everyone on board and left them with nothing except each other and a burning hatred of all things cylon.

Worse than all that rage, though, is the impotence: All that horror happened and they were powerless to stop it- they ran away, and that's going to add to their hatred and build up their frustration levels as well. And no matter how many cylon ships they destroy, that hate and guilt is always going to be there with them. And so we have the prisoner, a direct link to all those mean, nasty cylons who've hurt them all so bad and make them feel not-so-good about themselves. If they're impotent to stop the tide of cylons washing over them, they aren't so impotent when it comes to one individual toaster and letting her see EXACTLY how they all feel about her.

I believe Cain would say that it's "good for morale." It's a very personal and intimate way for them to strike back at the enemy... and they can feel good doing it.

I find it rather repulsive and horrifying, myself, but I think that's what the general outlook on it would be.

This was a great ep, there's no denying that, but there's one thing that didn't sit well with me- all of the Pegasus crew that we met were unrelentingly nasty. I can see wanting to show a contrast and making them "different" from Galactica, but I think it would have made it a lot more interesting if some of them had been a little nicer, if there'd been a bit more connection and camaraderie between the crews to show that as awful as the actions on Pegasus are, the crew really isn't so different from Galactica's after all. As cliche as it is, there's a monster inside us all, and if we the audience and the Galactica crew in particular could see just how easy it is to call forth that monster... I think it'd be a lot more sobering.

Right now we can cheer on the attack against Pegasus because it's a crew of b***ards and would be no great loss... but if we knew that there were people like Cally and Dee and the Chief and Apollo and all the others- real, human, sympathetic people on board- we might not rejoice quite so much in the possible lives lost.

As for running to Roslin for help... I think it's pretty clear that Cain wouldn't recognize Roslin's authority- she wouldn't take the president's calls, she expressed skepticism on the idea of the Secretary of Education being the head of the colonies, and I think that IF Roslin had tried anything, Cain would have ignored her- either conveniently misunderstanding, or pointing out that there are "things you simply don't have the capacity to understand, as a schoolteacher", or by continuing to refuse to take her calls. Yes, it would have been nice to SEE all this, but maybe that was in the bit that got snipped. :)

SG-1ssm
September 24th, 2005, 08:07 AM
IDK I think there might be a small fight.

SG-1ssm
September 24th, 2005, 08:13 AM
Wait I just found out something:
SPOILER:
Adama gets a promotion in the next episode,
Leading me to belive there isn't going to be a fight

epcrules89
September 24th, 2005, 08:14 AM
the Pegausus was the coolest thing ever! I loved the look of it and hope to see more of it in the last half of season two okay bye!

anotherquestion
September 24th, 2005, 08:23 AM
I wonder if the Executive Officer Cain allegedly shot on the Pegasus was an "able" officer? It certainly seemed to bother Adam_a. I guess she couldn't be her brother officer's keeper.

I was surprised at Tigh's altogether negative reaction to Cain. She seemed a better fit to his way of thinking and acting "by the book". That would seem a welcome transfer, should Cain have overlooked his spotty record.

Cain's philosophy of motivation and managment did take her far in the pre-war Colonial fleet. Remember, Adama and Tigh had washed out of the fleet entirely. Adama had to prove himself again to gain a second chance with the peacetime service and worked up through the ranks to the position he's in today. Cain's service up to the Cylon war, was likely altogether in peacetime, although she might have been deployed on a "peacekeeping" or a "planet building" non-war war. Her service was likely much briefer than Adama's, but it appears to have prepared her well for the operations she's undertaken against the Cylons.

What's puzzling is Cain's assessment of the "Cylon fleet" consisting of two BaseStars, one unknown very large vessel and scads of raiders. Is this supposed to be the entire military contingent, or just one of many "fleets"? Wouldn't BSG be given some deference for eliminating one full BaseStar and the 700 raiders in the past few weeks? It sounds like BSG alone is responsible for depleting about a third of the Cylon assets.

The independent tracking of Cain seems to confirm the idea that the Cylons can track BSG with little effort. Although you can only cram so much story in a one-hour time slot, there was a lot of extremely relevant data we didn't see shared between Adama and Cain:
* The appearance of all known human Cylons, so each respective fleet can be checked
* The existence of Kobol and the location vector to Earth
* The fact that Cylon raiders are organic, and can be turned into Colonial assets, if captured
* Cylon susceptibility to radiation effects. Their religous belief system.
* The Cylon "logic bombs" that can be effective counter measures.

Lots of the facts above are bound to be described in the Captain's logbooks, but you'd think these facts would be conveyed at the earliest opportunity "face to face". They would have more strategic impact, in the long run, than the hit and run tactics that Cain has employed up till now.

ToasterOnFire
September 24th, 2005, 08:46 AM
Something just didn't seem right with the Pegasus...I mean, how can a ship survive coming all the way to find Galactica and not have a single scratch on them from a cylon attack. I mean, IMO, the crew of Pegasus (at least a few like Cain and such) are cylons.
I thought of that as well. TPTB have done a great job keeping the mystery of who's a cylon and who isn't to keep everyone guessing. I still feel that at least one of the BSG regs is a cyclon...


Right now we can cheer on the attack against Pegasus because it's a crew of b***ards and would be no great loss... but if we knew that there were people like Cally and Dee and the Chief and Apollo and all the others- real, human, sympathetic people on board- we might not rejoice quite so much in the possible lives lost.
I agree here. It seems like TPTB spent too much time showing how all the Pegasus crew are worthless gits who aren't worth saving or integrating into the fleet. I worry that they may be setting up the entire destruction of Pegasus and it's crew (possibly at the hands of that unknown cylon vessel), but it's like TPTB are trying to say it's not that big of a deal since they all appear to be worthless.
BSG has done an excellent job so far setting up heroes that aren't always heroes and an enemy that isn't always evil. I don't want to see them falling into that trap now.

millhous
September 24th, 2005, 08:46 AM
That was an amazing episode. I can't believe I have to wait until January. I think the most critical aspect of the cliffhanger situation is the chain of command (as discussed here). Basically, Roslyn has to do something.

Now, here is the high point of the episode for me....Remember the whole idea that this story plays out again and again with different combinations according to the cylons? Some people thought that this could make the connection between the original series and this one. The original just being one of the previous iterations. But when I was watching last night, I noticed that Cain has models in the cases of her office like in the conference room of the Enterprise. If anyone taped the episode, can you make out whether or not one of the models was of the original Galactica from the original series? That would make an incredible connection. It seems like too big of an opportunity for RD Moore to pass up.

FeloniousMonk
September 24th, 2005, 08:49 AM
It's torture, if the person/thing in question can feel pain it's torture.

Torture is the infliction of severe physical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain) or psychological pain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_pain) as an expression of cruelty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruelty), a means of intimidation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intimidation), deterrent or punishment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punishment), or as a tool for the extraction of information or confessions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confession).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture

Torturing for information is one of the most stupid ideas every thought of. A person in any type of pain will do anything to stop the pain, it might not happen instantly but everybody has a braking point. Given enough time you can get anybody to say/do anything you want them to do just to stop the pain, most likily giving false info.I'm just saying that they could've shown a bit more on the torture end, y'know. This show has pulled a few punches for the sake of the weak stomached. Disappoints me a bit because they had a great opportunity to bring light to extreme torture techniques that are used the world over to this day.

Torture is performed because it works. ;) When a person just wants to stop the pain, they'll make stuff up. That's why interrogators rarely ever stop at the first pieces of information they get. Torture is like using a rock hammer to slowly pick away at the mental blocks protecting the mind. Sometimes it takes a while but eventually everyone will crack and when that happens, when you've dehumanized a man and made him believe that there's nothing left in his reality but pain, it becomes real hard to lie.

Natron
September 24th, 2005, 08:50 AM
It seems incredibly stupid to kill anyone (human) for whatever reason. As far as we, and they know, they are the last of their species. Why would you choose death for anyone, especially a pilot and a deck chief. Of course she is setting an example, and under normal conditions death might be the appropriate punishment, but these are obviously different times.

923flanigan
September 24th, 2005, 08:50 AM
I thought of that as well. TPTB have done a great job keeping the mystery of who's a cylon and who isn't to keep everyone guessing. I still feel that at least one of the BSG regs is a cyclon...


I agree here. It seems like TPTB spent too much time showing how all the Pegasus crew are worthless gits who aren't worth saving or integrating into the fleet. I worry that they may be setting up the entire destruction of Pegasus and it's crew (possibly at the hands of that unknown cylon vessel), but it's like TPTB are trying to say it's not that big of a deal since they all appear to be worthless.
BSG has done an excellent job so far setting up heroes that aren't always heroes and an enemy that isn't always evil. I don't want to see them falling into that trap now.

IMO, I think Galactica with ditch the Pegasus, but steal all it's supplies and ships. Then we'll know for sure if they are cylons when more of them pop up in odd places.

anotherquestion
September 24th, 2005, 09:13 AM
It seems incredibly stupid to kill anyone (human) for whatever reason. As far as we, and they know, they are the last of their species. Why would you choose death for anyone, especially a pilot and a deck chief. Of course she is setting an example, and under normal conditions death might be the appropriate punishment, but these are obviously different times.
Don't forget that a Lt was also killed in the brawl. He was Cain's chief inquisitor, and, no doubt, a great loss from her point of view.

MicaelJ
September 24th, 2005, 09:22 AM
Get what? :confused:

Technically the flag ship is wherever the highest ranked flag officer is on board...though it's usually the carrier's CDC. Where do you live?

I'm thinking it's a decoy like Adama said. A very tempting target...the Cylons may have just filled a ship with explosives, waiting for Galactica to send in fighters to take it down then detonate the thing and destory the CAP. :eek:
Norfolk is the only US naval base that homeports five CVs so I presume that's where he lives. In that case the flagship he's referring to is most likely the second fleet flag ship USS Mount Whitney though she's not a converted cargo ship but rather a purpose built command ship based on the Iwo Jima class.
This ship rarely deploys operationally and a battlegroup or amphibious assault group commander is for the most part in operational command, should multiple groups be required to join forces one of the group commanders may assume overall command or a more senior flag officer may be placed on one of the CVs or LHDs if it is deemed necessary and conditions permit. The Mount Whitney and her likes lack the necessary speed to keep up with a carrier battle group in a rushed situation.

Oh and this episode was quite good, there's very little believable room for the writers to maneuver with leading into the next episode when it comes to how Adama will get his men back.
A direct military confrontation with the Pegasus is unlikely to do much good since judging from the episode it has a higher combat potential than the Galactica. This leaves us with some options such as a mutiny against Cain opening up for a solution or some other non-combat event. Certainly a Cylon attack could also come into play.

anotherquestion
September 24th, 2005, 09:26 AM
Did anyone else feel that something wasn't right when one of the first things that Cain said was something along the lines of "it's good to have you join the Colonial Fleet." When I heard that I was like, aren't they joining the Colonial Fleet? About 45,000 people are out there, the Peg couldn't have more than 5,000 people there unless I missed some ships there.

It also made me wonder if when that citizen crew man told them that he was taken off of one of the other ships, if the Peg didn't only take in those who could be useful to them. Then disregard everyone else since they were at war. In other words the civilian ships would hold it back, and were seen as a hinderance.

The thought did cross my mind. Unlike Adama she has no Roselyn to keep her in check. She also seems to have no use for Civilian authority or needs.
The reference to rejoining the "Colonial Fleet" meant precisely that: becoming, again, another subordinate asset in the organized spacefaring military. The civilian vessels never were part of the "Colonial Fleet" but remained a "ragtag" fleet in the more generic sense of the word.

The presence of the civilians seems to have a dampening effect on some of the BSG's decison making, but some of the calls Adama has made have been as brutal as any of Cain's. He reminded us himself of the decision to destroy the Olympic carrier, and he abandoned the non-FTL "evacuees" to their certain destruction at the hands of the Cylons. The implication is that Cain was also callous, but efficient at guaranteeing the survival of the Pegasus as a functional military power, by the forced conscription of the Aeronautical Engineer, is, objectively, a mild counter-example.

Roslin, in fact, has not always kept Adama in check. As recent events have shown, Adama flagrantly disregarded the President's authority by removing her from office. Almost every "bad" action Cain has taken ("actually" or "alledgedly") has a counterpoint in an "Adama moment". The sanctioned rape of the Cylon prisoner is the one incident without a direct counter example, and it is one that has brought a lot of viewers blood to a boiling point about Cain and the entire crew of the Pegasus. But remember, sweet Calley murdered a Cylon that, in the end, hadn't actually killed anyone. She was let off with a slap on the wrist and is, even today, celebrated among the "enlightened" Gallactica crew. Rape is one of those "hot button" issues that has stacked the deck against the possibility of sympathy for the Pegasus crew, as has the heavy presence of the jackbooted thugs that Cain has surrounded herself with, and the lack of visible presence of female officers and crew.

Kirath
September 24th, 2005, 09:32 AM
wasn't there a episode of the original series like this. they meet a lone Battlestar out in the middlle of nowhere but it turns out the captain is nuts.

Vorlon-1
September 24th, 2005, 09:38 AM
I think it was made pretty apparent that the Galactica is no match for the Pegusus. I think the Pres is gonna move Colonial one in the line of fire and her religous fanatical followers will join in protecting the Galactica.

Somehow the Two battlestars will get seperated and Galactica will take on the fighters that were left behind and we will be left with a brilliant scenario of not knowing exactly what happened to the Pegusus.

But how can this all happen and in the same time get our people back on board......only the new BSG could be cabable of pulling this feat off. :p

busuan
September 24th, 2005, 09:42 AM
Controvercial? I guess that's what this show meant to be :D

It is not that apalling to me what the Pegasus crew have become. They are probably what the colonial forces were like or should be like. Machines not working properly? Fix them or trash them.

And there were not many female crew onboard...therefore, it's reasonale. It didn't even need to be "justified". THAT is a machine and you USE a machine.

Here I think is the emerging hidden major thread of the show: Humanity. Who's human? Who's to be called a human being? Is biology alone enough? As someone has noted, when they slaughtered the cyclon raiders in last episode, don't you feel a little uneasy watching the bloody scene?

When Cain said "welcome back", it's clear she was still in the same "fight back" mindset of Adama when Roslin saved him. But there was no one telling Cain "we'd better start to have babies." (I wonder her first reaction ;) ) She was obviously frozen in the mindset because she only noticed the flaws of galactica and almost completely ignored their achievement; if the Galactica crew were as bad as in the log, the whole fleet should have been wiped out long time ago.

Roslin's expression was as like she found what a daunting task she's facing if she want to continue her "Earth Path". What she said to Adama implied it, although she didn't seem to want to force her point, "hey, Bill, we have a plan, remember?"

As for the conflict between the two battlestars, it HAD to happen. In a sense, this is a fight between the Post-Kobol-Galactica and the Post-Attack-Galactica. It is a materialized mental confilict inside everyone of the fleet. This was THE decisive battle between Roslin who wanted to keep her "Earth Path" and those who wanted to go "Home Path". No matter how to resolve it, the outcome had to be a single one: Earth or Home. No compromises.

Now some comments on details.
1, "Score board", Galatica's mission is to survive and protect the fleet. It doesn't matter how many cylons they kill, if one man dies, they lose. Pegasus' is to attack as if they had such an order. This scene is to contrast the two main groups.
2, "High morale on Pegasus", I suspect that Pegasus was never a major target of cylcons. The cylons destoyed the colonial fleet. They didn't have to sink every ship. If cylcons have been igoring Pegasus, unlike Adama, it would be a lot easier for Cain to have many "victories." But we have to wait to see if this is the story.
3, The conflict. I don't see how to resolve this easily without many people got hurt first. To save them, a higher authority such as Roslin has to step in, but the question is how many people onboard Pegasus recognize her authority. This episode has not established her religious authority over Pegasus yet. Or the people step in; the civilian fleet rally to Galactica. This would force Cain to realize that she is going to kill some of the remaining human beings. And there had to be some Pegasus crew began to look for relatives. Fighting against them would cause a mutiny that even she could not put down. Or the cylons somehow helped. But that's cheesy.
4, Helo and Chief's fate. Strictly, they can be shot on spot; they did kill an officer who's carrying out the admiral's order. To save them, someone has to explain why Sharon should never be hurt; this is hard. I think Roslin or Adama has to make some story on how valuable Sharon is and punish Cain for trying to compromise such an asset. I don't see other ways.

RIX
September 24th, 2005, 09:49 AM
All I have to say is there are clearly no lawyers in BSG. President Roslyn is the leader of the lawful civil authority. If Adm. Cain wants to commit treason, sedition, and mutiny against the elected leader of the colonies and considers herself a member of the fleet, then she is definitely cracked ( Honestly, only dictators and rulers behave in such fashion, living legend OST). There is no justifying rape at any time. The law was created to protect us from ourselfs. Order has clearly broken down on the Pegasus... among other things, and they've all cracked. They are only human by species classification and all civility die within them. Order is easily maintain under disperate circumstances with the right people. Adm. Cain and the crew of the Pegasus must be that 10%, we all have to endure in life.
Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).

NotAscended
September 24th, 2005, 10:18 AM
.

It's obvious that Cain is doing everything in her power to keep the fleet [which is now much larger and less manageable, of course] functioning, and putting a couple of Galactica's crewmen to death makes complete sense under the circumstances. She defends her actions to Adama, saying that the fleet is in "a state of war," and thus desperate times call for desperate measures.



This scene (as well as the one where Cain arrives and welcomes everyone "back to the fleet") really show where she is coming from and how it differs from the Galactica crew. Cain is still at war, but the Galactica really isn't. I can't remember which episode exactly, but didn't Roslin and Adama have a conversation to the effect that the war was over and the humans lost. Now, the Galactica and the civil government are just trying to save humanity and find a new home. War vs. the maintenance of the colonial civilization are two very different goals in a post-apocalyptic world, and I hope we get to see that contrast played out in the part 2.

Natron
September 24th, 2005, 10:23 AM
But Helo and Tyrol didn't intentionally kill him, and Tyrol was the only one to actually do the killing.

Isn't the consequence of mutiny death? Did they commit mutiny? They themselves didn't disobey any orders, they interfered with someone else's orders, and they didn't know about those orders, at least from what we saw.

This could definitely be argued in a civilian court, but it's military, so I'm not sure where all that stands.

Miracle
September 24th, 2005, 10:25 AM
This scene (as well as the one where Cain arrives and welcomes everyone "back to the fleet") really show where she is coming from and how it differs from the Galactica crew. Cain is still at war, but the Galactica really isn't. I can't remember which episode exactly, but didn't Roslin and Adama have a conversation to the effect that the war was over and the humans lost. Now, the Galactica and the civil government are just trying to save humanity and find a new home. War vs. the maintenance of the colonial civilization are two very different goals in a post-apocalyptic world, and I hope we get to see that contrast played out in the part 2.

Wow, what a intuitive post. Really puts that whole ep in perspective. :cool:

Natron
September 24th, 2005, 10:26 AM
It can be noted that Adama didn't leave the non-FTL ships behind, Roslin did, and they did it to join with Galactica.

NK1969
September 24th, 2005, 10:27 AM
OT :o ....Forrestal, Oriskany or Midway class??

USS Forrestal (CV-59). I was in Air Dept, V-3 Division from 1988-1990. At the time she was not the oldest carrier in the fleet. Lexington (Essex Class) was a holdout from WWII that was still active as the training carrier and Coral Sea (Midway Class) and Midway were both still active-fleet carriers with their own airwings.

Zues
September 24th, 2005, 10:30 AM
Well what I want to know is how the Pegasus lasted so long without having a tyllium refining ship (fuel ship). =o

larocque6689
September 24th, 2005, 10:36 AM
Here's this week's podcast excerpts for the episode "Pegasus"

--

This is the one-hour version of Pegasus. We struggled mightily to get this show to time. And when the footage was complete, I believe the director's cut was a good fifteen minutes over, which is a bit of problem, because that's more than an act's worth of material. And as we tried in varying ways to get this down to the hour running length, I kept feeling like, the best version of the show was the longer version. So we actually explored for a while the possibility of showing a 90 minute version of Pegasus, and there was various discussions with the network back and forth. Ultimately, one of the problems was, we had an episode that was too long for an hour and too short for 90 minutes. We could never quite plump it out to the point where it could be a 90 minute show, and it was always very difficult to pare it down to an hour show. So we finally got it down to an hour, rather than pad it out, and just make it slow to get to 90 minutes. We compromised and decided to go with the fastest barnburner of an episode that we could in the one hour. And fortunately Universal home video has agreed to show the longer version of Pegasus in the season 2 DVD set. So there's something for all of you to look forward to...

You can tell that the pace of the show is just relentless. We're just being brutal with these scenes, we're moving from scene to scene, in trying to give you the juice of each one. In some ways you can argue it makes for a tighter, more compelling drama, but my feeling of the longer version was, it was a richer meal, you got more textures, more flavors, a greater sense of the complexity of some of the relationships. You saw more of the consequences or ramifications of the Pegasus showing up, how it affected more characters lives. And that's really why I was attached to the longer version.

--

Sheba was a character that is not present in this version of the show. I felt that Sheba ultimately was too cute of a character concept, that you'd run into another Battlestar, and that Commander also would have a child as the commander of his air group. I just felt it was one step too far. It pushed the reality of the show across the line, where essentially the show is kind of winking at the audience and going, "They did it, so we're going to do it too." It's kind of cute, isn't it? It worked for the original series... it just didn't feel it would work very well in our episode.

--

I had worked with Michelle Forbes on Star Trek: The Next Generation where she played Ensign Ro, and other people knew her from her film work. There was something really interesting about going with not an older woman, but a slightly younger woman, that she would personify this character... There was something I really liked about bringing in a younger fast-tracked admiral, who then comes in and takes command of the Galactica and the entire ragtag fleet. I should say that in the original "The Living Legend," Commander Cain did not outrank Adama. That story was similar only in so far as there is a Battlestar Pegasus, they do meet up with it unexpectedly, and that there's an Admiral Cain who is more of a hardass character than Commander Adama... I liked the kernel of that, that another battlestar comes on the scene, and the commander is a tougher one than ours is, and is a bit of a crazy person. On top of that, what I thought was even more interesting was then to say, what if that commander shows up they outrank Adama? What if that commander shows up and takes command of the fleet away from Adama, which would happen? And suddenly I realized, that was a more interesting tale.

--

There's a lot of things that did not make it into the one hour version of "Pegasus." There's a whole leadup to this scene with Adama and Laura and Tigh walking through the hallway. And that's where they talk about who Admiral Cain is. They talk about the fact that Cain was a very young admiral, had been promoted over several people on the commanders list, was sort of an up and comer, and a bit of a tough one, and that she had taken command of Battlestar Group 75 only recently before the attack.

--

We had varying storylines and drafts dealing with the interaction between Laura and Cain. In one of the drafts, Cain in this moment did not even address Laura as president, just that it's a pleasure. I kept playing a card where Cain never quite acknowledged Laura as the president. There was a scene at one point when Cain went over to talk to Laura because there was also a subplot where ships in the fleet holding back supplies and not delivering fuel etc. because they weren't getting spare parts, they weren't getting help when Pegasus is helping the Galactica after they arrive, and the civilian fleet's getting fed up and they go on strike. They're not going to deliver fuel supplies to Pegasus until they get some of their needs met, and Cain got very upset and goes to confront Laura. And in that scene, Laura goes, "Hey, what do you want? You're not helping these guys out." And Cain makes it very clear to Laura in that moment that she doesn't accept her as the president. This is a military operation and she'll take what she needs from these people if need be.

--

I'm glad we waited until the middle of the second season, because at this point, the show had matured to the point where I think we can do this episode. We've had enough happen within the show to these people. These characters have gone through enough things, that there's material to mine in this kind of an episode... Mike Rymer, when he read the script, said he loved the fact that Admiral Cain comes over here and everything she says is right. She should take command and these people have been screwing up... Her agenda is quite simple. Hit the Cylons, hit them hard, keep hitting them, do whatever it takes to accomplish that mission. And looking at the way Galactica has been run up until this point, she goes, "What the hell is this? This is ridiculous. This is no way to run a fleet." ... She doesn't say anything here that's out of line. She doesn't say anything that's wrong. Everything she says is logical. It's all based on his logs, and how can he argue with it? But you kind of hate her for bringing it up, because it's all family business. And then somebody comes in from the outside and says, "You people are screwed up." And you kind of flinch back from that kind of a naked appraisal and wish that it weren't so, but it is, and you have to deal with it.

--

What would happen, to put a story where Baltar comes across the tortured and gang-raped Six of his dreams, and be forced to deal with her? There was something so powerful about that idea, and it would speak to the heart of who the man is now, and what goes on his life, to then be confronted with another Six, and that this Six had gone through this horrific experience and wasn't the powerful, sexy woman that we've come to know and in this case had been reduced to this state, where she's lying virtually catatonic on the floor... I'm really fascinated with the idea of Baltar coming to look at the Cylons in a different way. To look at this particular Cylon in a very different way. That here's a real, flesh and blood woman, another version of the woman he knew on Caprica, and that he would have an enormous amount of sympathy for this version of Six. That this one had gone through an experience that made him want to reach out to her, which is something he had never wanted to do. He had always been the character who had held his emotions back, who never connected with a woman, who never gave himself to love or to care. Right from the beginning their relationship had been, he was a player and she was just another conquest that turned the tables on him. That as much as she wanted him to love her, he never could or would. There was something amazing about flipping that upside down, having him reach out emotionally, but only to the one who had been tortued and raped. And there was something twisted about that, and there was something true about that.

--

This character does have a name, by the way. While Number Six is how she's referred to in the scripts, this character is called Gina. Gina comes out of the fact that there are certain people out there in the fan community -- and I know who you are -- that refer to the show as GINO, "Galactica in Name Only." And there was something so funny about that. And I always get a kick out of people who would refer to the show as GINO. They couldn't even bring themselves to just call it Galactica. They had to really make up this other name, and it was GINO. I just decided that, let's call the tortured Six, Gina. But it's never actually spoken in the show.

--

There was some piece that talked about [U.N. ambassador] John Bolton's style or lack of style with his staff, and he mentions at some point, he made his staff come into his office and hold all the meetings standing up, because he wanted to get through the meetings rather quickly. And he found that if he made his staff stand during the entire meeteing, that they got through it much faster. That says so much about that man, and I thought it was a really interesting telling kind of bit of character, so I used it here, that Cain was that kind of person.

larocque6689
September 24th, 2005, 10:37 AM
--

There was an additional scene where Tyrol is relieved of his deck. That Chief Laird is assigned to take over the hangar deck as the deck chief, and Tyrol is relieved and has to play second fiddle to Laird.

--

This whole sequence of Sharon being raped by Lieutenant Thorne was one of much controversy as you can imagine. On the page we wrote this the way it's essentially cut here in this version of the show where the rape is averted at the last minute. It was shot a different way, we shot the whole rape. We shot a very disturbing rape sequence of Thorne raping Sharon, and there was a version cut where the guys come in and it's happening as opposed to about to happen. And there was a lot of controversy back and forth, and ultimately we opted to go with this version, where they come in just as the rape is happening... This is a really dark scene, this is a dark storyline. Things happened on Pegasus that you don't want to know about, and suddenly they're happening on our ship. And I like the fact that Helo and Tyrol, in the episode that precedes this one, were literally at each other's throats for a moment, that they both come charging in when this horrific thing is happening with Sharon. And they get in there and they go at these guys, and then Thorne is killed. It wasn't intended to happen, none of them set out to do this, but it just happened in the moment, that he was killed accidentally. And that that would set off a chain of events.

--
That little beat you just saw with Cally and the female deck crew sort of walking out on the conversation as it gets more about the joy these guys from the Pegasus had in going and raping their Cylon prisoner was something that Mike Rymer came up with. It wasn't in the script but it was realy nice touch and it was a very smart move. That Cally etc.. walk out on these guys, because if these are co-ed ships and the notion that the women all stand around listening to them make jokes about the fact that they went in on this twisted gang rape of Gina, it didn't seem right that they would just stand around. That's great, the yee-hah. That kills me. The yee-hah that actor gives just makes you want to reach through the camera lens and kill him.

--

Adama launches the Vipers and says, "I'm getting my men back." And there's something really interesting aabout the fact that a man who's obeying the rules and doing the right thing, admiting his mistakes, there comes a point, right or wrong, he's not going to let her execute his men without a trial. He's just not going to do that. There are places where Adama will not go, and I love that in this moment she nails him on the tribunal thing. Last year during "Litmus" he dissolved a tribunal when he didn't like the answer and it hits him. It registers on the character in that moment. He knows that that too is true. And the fact that it's true doesn't mean that he doesn't feel the way he feels in this scene. And when he finds out a moment later that they've been sentenced to death, it felt right that Adama, a man who risked so many lives when Kara Thrace was down on that planet, that he would again do anything it took to save the men that were under his command, that his bond with them was that strong. And you could very logically argue that it's a profound mistake on his part, that it's a command flaw, but people have flaws and that's one of his blind spots. It's one of the places where Adama is not the ideal commander if you want to look at it that way. And in many other ways he's the most human commander of them all.

--

I like the idea that Baltar [is] sitting and really exposing himself emotionally and talking in very frank terms about the experience that he has had with Six and with Six on Caprica and what she means to him in a very real and profound way. And he would do it in this context and that it was just a monologue. I felt really comfortable writing a monologue for James because I knew that James would embrace it and would really sink his teeth into it and really make it sing.

NotAscended
September 24th, 2005, 10:53 AM
larocque6689, thanks for the podcast excerpts! Fun reading for the pod-less.

osufanboy
September 24th, 2005, 12:04 PM
wasn't there a episode of the original series like this. they meet a lone Battlestar out in the middlle of nowhere but it turns out the captain is nuts.

That was the Pegasus. And that Admiral Cain was played by Lloyd Bridges.

Natron
September 24th, 2005, 12:09 PM
That was the Pegasus. And that Admiral Cain was played by Lloyd Bridges.

Although then it was Commander Cain.

grimmjack66
September 24th, 2005, 12:39 PM
You cant say that, all we know is that they escaped and tracked a Cylon fleet, they could have been through worse

But I think the fleet was the main balancer that prevented the Galactica from becoming the Pegasus, since they had something to fight for, while Pegasus thought they were alone so basically said "screw it, Im taking as much Cylons down with me as I can and doing whatever the heck I want" That is why Cain doesnt even care about the fleet.

I think the Galactica crew would have maintained their more civil approach to dealing with the cylons whether or not they had the rag tag civilian fleet following them.

Adama is just a more humanistic person... He works with peoples talents and flaws and brings out the best in his crew...His XO might drink and have a messed up marriage but he speaks his mind and lets Adama know when he's f'n up.

Cain apparently allows no dissent...And apparently has a group of boot lickers and yes men purposefully in place around her. Cains XO just wants to stay alive.

This is just me, I was in the Army for over fifteen years before getting hurt...I love the way BSG shows the way people in the military interact after being together for a long time under stress...The way Cain/Pegasus is portrayed is the stock Hollywood portrayal of the Military...Basically mind numbed robots incapable of independent thought. Who will murder and rape the second they get a chance. Its unfortunate that there are many out there who actually think this...

I hope the writers portray the command group of the Pegasus as a clique of morally corrupt people who take advantage of a rotten situation to get their jolly's.

Like what happens in the real world more times than not...And Adama can show why no matter what happens during a war...You have to maintain some semblance of human empathy for the enemy...And by doing that no matter what happens..You have won

djmc26
September 24th, 2005, 12:41 PM
IMHo was a great ep !
BSG has always this (well no always but often) this great pace and rythm...a great "mounted" sequence....

looked quite obvious the confrontation between adama and cain, although this, the ep was pretty well designed with a growin tension....leading to????

I dont think they will open fire (viper teams) against each otehr..maybe cylon will appear (maybe coming to help their raped captives..who knows!) and all together they will fight and defeat Cylons...


Then prolly Roslin will make Adama Admiral (why she didnt do before?!?!?) and the fleet and pegasus will divide their routes until next time....

this is my speculation :)
Cheers

Brombor
September 24th, 2005, 01:23 PM
What an excellent episode, and great script writing!

It was interesting reading everyone's comments and thoughts - but I still have a question if anyone can answer it...

Since the Pegasus is a newer class of battleship, wouldn't it have been disabled by the cylon virus like all the others? If not during the initial cylon attack, then certainly in their other run-ins with the cylons. (And their vipers would have been affected too.)

Is this a hole in the plot, or something to be explained in part two?

Has anyone heard anything?

ShadowMaat
September 24th, 2005, 01:36 PM
Since the Pegasus is a newer class of battleship, wouldn't it have been disabled by the cylon virus like all the others? If not during the initial cylon attack, then certainly in their other run-ins with the cylons. (And their vipers would have been affected too.)
I actually wondered the same thing.

Weren't they supposed to be in for refit/repairs or something? Might mean some systems were offline. Although I'd like to know how they managed to get out of dock and jump away. Of course, as you said, that doesn't explain all their encounters AFTER that, unless there have been some massive changes no one's bothered to mention, yet. :rolleyes:

Somehow, though, I think it's something much bigger than that. I wonder if the crew's growing inhumanity will play into whatever it is.

January is so far away. *sigh*

millhous
September 24th, 2005, 01:51 PM
Somehow, though, I think it's something much bigger than that. I wonder if the crew's growing inhumanity will play into whatever it is.


What if the cylons purposefully allowed the Pegasus to escape and survive so far? Just as they studied Helo with Boomer on Caprica for love (and possibly studying Galactica through six), maybe they are studying the Pegasus to learn about hate/anger/inhumanity. This would explain why a newer Battlestar escaped the initial attack virus that knocked out everyone else. Even if the Pegasus systems were down at the time of the attack, the Vipers would have been up and running. And the Vipers would have been susceptible after that as well. If they're studying humanity doesn't it make sense that they study inhumanity?

ShadowMaat
September 24th, 2005, 01:56 PM
Sounds as likely as anything at this point. :)

And I wonder how they feel knowing that the Cylons are following Galactica and have basically ignored Pegasus except during direct attacks? Attacks generally started, I gather, by the Pegasus itself. ;)

THSEX1138
September 24th, 2005, 02:27 PM
Hey Dick and Ron If you guys are reading this I never liked the taste of the "NEW COKE". The Lords of Kobol would spin in their tombs if they heard the soundtrack on Pegesus it Fracking Sucked! :( The music was perfect before why change it. Let Bear McCreary and Richard Gibbs do that thing that they do. The music for this series is unique, emotional and sometimes beautiful. Those guitar riffs ( as hard as it might seem ) almost deflated the very powerful Dr. Baltar scence where he finally admits his true feelings for Number Six. Please guys and girls of BSG stay on the path the gods have laid out for you. "Coke Classic" is wonderful thing.

SG1diplomat
September 24th, 2005, 04:04 PM
Pegasus was an awesome episode. I am continually amazed at the level of drama and emotion of this show. We are really made to care about the characters on Galactica. I cheered when Adama called Pegasus and they got a response. Adama really kicks ass. I was glad when he ordered to marines and vipers to intercept the Pegasus. Man, you don't want to mess with Adama. The look he gives when he is pissed, is enough to scare anybody.

I wonder thought if the writers didn't go a bit overboard in portraying the Pegasus crew in a negative way. It seems like the entire Pegasus crew are all evil. Couldn't we get at least one Pegasus crewmember that's not evil?

Excali5033
September 24th, 2005, 04:27 PM
Laird isn't evil...though of course he's just a pressganged civie. Fisk is just scared for his life, he's probably not that bad, either.

Someone mentioned a model of a battlestar in Cain's office, but the only thing I saw was the cabinet full of guns.

The music was pretty different than what we're used to, but it was very percussive and military, which is to be expected given the subject matter, no? The only odd music was the opening, which reminded me of Twin Peaks for some reason.

shipdriver
September 24th, 2005, 04:31 PM
If you've ever been on a ship with a martinet for a Captain, you can understand how the entire crew can walk on pins and needles, sometimes to detriment of good judgement. (And martinet doesn't cover killing your XO in front of everybody!) To an outsider, these formerly easy going people appear stressed and mercurial. Now add in the fact that this is completely bottled up inside the skin of a solitary ship forever because the entire crew thinks that there is no one else left in existence- warping their morality. It's Caine Mutiny meets Heart of Darkness.

LT Thorne was not executing a LAWFUL order when raping Boomer. They got court-martialed at Abu Ghraib and that was nothing compared to what the Pegasi were doing. Of course, more sophisticated interrogators know that better information will be obtained with mind games rather than brutalization. Cain's "justice" is not particularly legitimate, thus justifying in large part the whacking of LT Thorne, or at least meaning that such whacking is not treason.

I still wonder if the two carriers, I mean battlestars, will go after the Cylon unusual large ship (which Starbuck will have successfully scoped out with the "Laura") together. The Pegasus "disappeared" in the original series eiposode while making a "suicide run" on Baltar's basestar, after having offloaded all non-essential personnel, fighters, etc.- conventiently reinforcing Galactica's viper wing and adding Sheba. In the original series Cain was a Halsey-like figure who wanted to attack the Cylons/Japanese rather than protecting the civilian fleet/troops at Leyte. Halsey was also a man who based his heroic reputation on his aggressiveness, not on actual large fleet organization and strategy. If Admiral cain in the new series even remotely follows suit, then regardless of what happens between Pegasus and Galactica, she will still want to go after those Cylons.

Anyway, enough for now. This was a great ep! A 4 month wait?!!?! You've got to be kidding me!

cavscout
September 24th, 2005, 05:27 PM
you have to be kidding me, the adm and the crew of the pegasus is out of control, killing that rapes LT i would have done the same. 3months to see the galactica kick the pegasus b----t, not good :cool:

ToasterOnFire
September 24th, 2005, 05:40 PM
Hey Dick and Ron If you guys are reading this I never liked the taste of the "NEW COKE". The Lords of Kobol would spin in their tombs if they heard the soundtrack on Pegesus it Fracking Sucked! :( The music was perfect before why change it. Let Bear McCreary and Richard Gibbs do that thing that they do. The music for this series is unique, emotional and sometimes beautiful. Those guitar riffs ( as hard as it might seem ) almost deflated the very powerful Dr. Baltar scence where he finally admits his true feelings for Number Six. Please guys and girls of BSG stay on the path the gods have laid out for you. "Coke Classic" is wonderful thing.
I'll agree with that; the different style of music in this ep felt off for me, especially the music in the pre-credits clip. I normally don't notice the music (which to me indicates that it fits well with the onscreen action), but it really stood out here.

Redwall
September 24th, 2005, 05:49 PM
I asked myself how did they know that Six was a Cylon? Then I connected some dots. When the first offer was shot for disobeying an order, he might have told them. Meaning that Six and he were having a relationship, and he fell in love with her. They might have assumed she was a cylon, or perhaps they do have their own detection test. Or, it could be that perhaps he told Cain in private about six, and disobeying the order gave her the oppertunty to take care of him.

I don't think it's mentioned in the episode, but here's why according to the spoilers: Gina (Pegasus' Six) helped the Cylons board the Pegasus, leading to the 800 dead Cain mentions. Which also gives the crew another very good reason to go as far as they did with Gina -- she was directly responsible for the deaths of people they knew personally.


This was a great ep, there's no denying that, but there's one thing that didn't sit well with me- all of the Pegasus crew that we met were unrelentingly nasty. I can see wanting to show a contrast and making them "different" from Galactica, but I think it would have made it a lot more interesting if some of them had been a little nicer, if there'd been a bit more connection and camaraderie between the crews to show that as awful as the actions on Pegasus are, the crew really isn't so different from Galactica's after all. As cliche as it is, there's a monster inside us all, and if we the audience and the Galactica crew in particular could see just how easy it is to call forth that monster... I think it'd be a lot more sobering.

While I agree in principle, I feel I should point out that Laird (Pegasus' deck chief, the former civillian engineer) was pretty decent. He didn't get much screen time, though.


I actually wondered the same thing.

Weren't they supposed to be in for refit/repairs or something? Might mean some systems were offline. Although I'd like to know how they managed to get out of dock and jump away. Of course, as you said, that doesn't explain all their encounters AFTER that, unless there have been some massive changes no one's bothered to mention, yet. :rolleyes:

According to RDM's podcast, this was answered in the initial questionairre scene between Adama, Cain, and Roslin, but it got cut. Pegasus was in for repairs so most of her systems were shut down and, more importantly, the networks not connected. They got the computers up fast enough to jump away (the "blind jump") and at some point realized the vulnerability and shut down their networks permanently.

ShadowMaat
September 24th, 2005, 06:01 PM
I dunno about Laird. He wasn't inherently as wretched as the rest of the Pegasus crew, but his comments about Blackbird left me suspicious of him. I kept waiting for an additional scene where he took Tyrol up one side and down the other, condemning the design of the ship and doubting its ability to stay together under the stress of battle. It never happened, and maybe I'm wrong, but until we learn more about him and get a better sense of his character, I'm not ready to call him a definite good guy. He's ambiguous at best. ;)

creed462
September 24th, 2005, 06:02 PM
Cain does not strike me as a good leader, even though she had the rank, psycologically taking comand away from Adoma at this point would lead to terible moral issue, coupled with her vilent tendencys, and instance "Justice" she could distroy everything they fought to protect. Remember they aren't just fighting for their lives, they are fighting for thier idea as well.

alaskannut
September 24th, 2005, 06:39 PM
Fisk is just scared for his life, he's probably not that bad, either.

I rather agree with you there--and don't forget he warned Tigh about the good admiral, albeit while masking the warning as a joke, then in the end he tried to dissuade her from launching the vipers.

appel
September 24th, 2005, 06:39 PM
It was probably one of the top 3 best episodes of battlestar galactica. Although, very hard to decide which ones are the best since all the shows episodes are so great and well done. :)

I just can't believe I have to wait 3 months for the next episode :eek:


Funny, I watch both stargate sg1 and atlantis, and battlestar galactica. I must say that battlestar galactica is really way better than stargate, at least I enjoy watching it a lot more.

skrip00
September 24th, 2005, 07:36 PM
Prediction: Cain is going to have a bullet in her head by the end of the next episode. Possibly by Fisk.

Roslyn will promote Adama to rank of Admiral.

The Pegasus will be destroyed in an effort to kill the Cylon "Mystery" ship. It will succeed. However, many vipers will be transfered to Galactica along with pilots.

This show isnt big enough for two Battlestars...

madk99
September 24th, 2005, 07:39 PM
I would like to bring up the possibility that Captive 6 may actually be Baltar's original physical 6. We know that Peg returned to a planet to conscript some useful folks. We also know that the planetside resistance knows of human-form cylon models. They may have captured one (or more) at that time. Incidently, Cheif Laird is now a prime target for "Cylon Incognito". Since a surviving Battlestar came back to draft the human remnants, the Cylons would certainly make sure one with useful skills would be available. I also think if any other Cylon is on the "Milky Battlestar" it must be Cally. It was just too Jack Ruby for me.

REgarding the episode at large --- I enjoyed it but it really did seem quite rushed. I didn't feel the new interactions and developing emotions were flesched out in sufficient detail. I'm very anxious to see the extended version.

Now, how will this be resolved??? He He He. The Cylon Attack Theory and the Civilian Intervention Gambit are both reasonable. Another possibility is the Illegal Order Argument. This could conceivably lead to a full scale Caine Mutiny(sorry ;) but I doubt this what the writers have in mind. I think it's clear that the Cain and the Peg represents the worst of us. While Adama, Ros and the Fleet represent the balance that shows our human nature at it's complex best. There will be undoubtedly be an unanswered disappearance of the Peg.

Bl4de
September 24th, 2005, 07:47 PM
Prediction: Cain is going to have a bullet in her head by the end of the next episode. Possibly by Fisk.

Roslyn will promote Adama to rank of Admiral.

The Pegasus will be destroyed in an effort to kill the Cylon "Mystery" ship. It will succeed. However, many vipers will be transfered to Galactica along with pilots.

This show isnt big enough for two Battlestars...

I think you just read a lot of spoilers and tried posting them off as predictions, you sound a little too sure of yourself.




I really don't think Adama had to let Cain take over, the situation has been touch and go since the destruction of their homeworld, they didn't have to keep military rank like it was, it was restructured so that people weren't getting promotions or demotions since there couldn't be anyone to take over for those people, so everyone was stuck. Obviously if they can bend the military laws they could have just said you know what I'm the commander of the fleet and I've gotten us this far, you can take a back seat, if you don't like that response I was promoted to admiral right before the attack. I could see a lot of excuses not to let Cain take over.

I think the take over was way too quick, they didn't spend enough time assimilating the crew of the Pegasus into the fleet. What of the civilians onboard the Pegasus that were forced to become part of the crew such as Larry the new deck chief? They should have dealt with their roles in becoming civilians again in the fleet doing their old job or staying in the military onboard the Pegasus.

They just need to mutiny against Cain and use the Pegasus as backup in fights, the fleet/government should never have allowed a new fleet leader to take over with no previous experience in that situation, without having the trust of the fleet.

The episode just seemed really rushed.. they should have put the conflict into the next episode and left off at a different spot while dealing with other issues.

madk99
September 24th, 2005, 08:00 PM
I hope he wasn't sneaking in spoilers. I never read them. It's far too much fun to discuss/dissect it yourself. To tell the truth I think better ideas come up on these forums that sometimes appear in the actual show. I wonder if the writers go fishing here occasionally. Hmmmmm. (Hi. Ron!)

I believe the Peg will leave behind a significant Viper force when it disappears.
I believe one of the characters from the Peg (or two) will be strongly hinted or revealed to be Cylons.
I believe there may yet be brothers of man that even now, stuggle to survive somewhere beyond the heavens.
I believe I'll have another beer.

Miracle
September 24th, 2005, 08:08 PM
Prediction: Cain is going to have a bullet in her head by the end of the next episode. Possibly by Fisk.

Roslyn will promote Adama to rank of Admiral.

The Pegasus will be destroyed in an effort to kill the Cylon "Mystery" ship. It will succeed. However, many vipers will be transfered to Galactica along with pilots.

This show isnt big enough for two Battlestars...

I dont know about Cain being killed or Adama being promoted, but I do think we will find out the purpose of the "mystery" cylon ship and the Pegasus will be lost in an successful attack against it.. I also agree that Galatica will pick up alot of new vipers from the defunct Peg.

Zoidberg
September 24th, 2005, 08:24 PM
This was a great episode, and like most of you, I was about to throw the fraking remote control to the plasma LCD exactly when the "to be continued..." appeared. ARGGGGGGGGGGGG

This brought painful memories of other great season cliffhangers, like in DS9, when the Federation battle fleet is on its way to retake DS9 and the "to be continued..." show ups ... G0D DAM1T !!!!!!! or in BABYLON 5, on the hour of the wolf, great space battle about to start and ... "to be continued ..." SONS OF DEATH !!!!!!!!

A now, comes BSG, and they end the new episodes for this year with "to be continued...", and that's it, I can't take it anymore. That's why I decided to finish my time machine and go to January 2006 for the conclusion of this great episode. DAMN SCI FI channel, I know they want to keep viewers attention, but DAM!T, at least make some decent SCI FI ORIGINAL movies, and not the boat load of crap they try to push as SCI FI supper CHEESE ... Get some good decent anime at least, HECK a rerun of MACROSS will keep me coming to the network, and not just for Fridays to catch SG-1, SG-ATLANTIS, and BSG.

In any case, let me check my list to assemble my time machine...
- Flux capacitor: CHECK
- Plutonium rods: CHECK
- IC internal components: CHECK
- OS to run all this: CHECK
- Hazmat suits: CHECK
- Delorean vehicle: AAAA CRAP !!!!!!! WTF can I get one of those? Not even on FRAKING Ebay !!!!!!!

DARN IT !!!!! Now I will have to wait like all my fellow sheep until January 2006 for the conclusion of Pegasus.

Thank my lucky stars that Dawn of War 40K: Winter Assault is just out, that will keep me occupied for some time, and at least some other good TV show is around .... ROME !!!!! With a new episode premiering tomorrow. Thank you HBO. So between Winter Assault and ROME I should be able to manage it until January 2006.

Now back to the killing, and just like my fellow Assault Marines would advice CAIN: We must execute a tactical withdraw commander !!!

You HERETICS !!! For the EMPEROR !!!!
It is better to DIE for the EMPEROR than to live for your self. DIE !!!
I just love the Dreadnoughts. :D

Vorlon-1
September 24th, 2005, 09:02 PM
Sci-fi is gonna air a Pegasus mini to hold us over till Jan. It will start back at the ship yard and end up with the Galactica's call from Adama Lots of action on the state of the art Battlestar.




Beep....Beep....Beep...man my alarms going off gotta wake up now :(

MASON
September 24th, 2005, 09:08 PM
First off, I thought this episode was great.

The role reversal of the Galactica from leader to follower was incredibly effective. I really felt as though the Galactica was suddenly a much smaller, weaker ship than I'd perceived previously, which made it all the more impressive that she'd survived so many conflicts.

Although, I was surprised that Roslyn just seemed to roll over when Cain "shot her dog," I still found Cain's character convincing in that she would ignore Roslyn's authority because she'd been on her own so long, commanding the Pegasus, in a time of war; Cain let it go to her head, and believes she's earned the right hold onto that power.

-----

From the darkness you must fall...

The last few episodes, Final Cut, Flight of the Phoenix, and Pegasus, all seem to be wake up calls for the Galactica crew, to their past, their present situation, and their future, respectively, through dealing with their mistakes, coping with the growing stresses, and questioning whether they need to change. A very interesting arc, however loosely connected.

-----

Gaius' Gaias are colliding:

Did anyone else notice Tricia Helfer's performance in this episode? I mean, in other dramas, even in feature films, you don't see such a convincing depiction of suffering and pain, and the tears of finally reconnecting with someone who is genuinely trying to help you. And Baltar's confession to Gina... Incredible. I was really moved by this scene, despite the somewhat out of place music (and I have to agree that the weak guitar dropping in and out definitely has something akin with Angelo Badalamenti's Twin Peaks score). I'm starving for some kind of substantial sublot between Six and Baltar, and it's finally here (Convenient, though, for filming's sake, that Baltar asks for time alone so that they don't have to do too many multiple six effects).

Double sixes, baby! You can definitely call that a hard six.

-----

And what an ending.

I just couldn't believe they went out on that, I actually got up and started talking aloud to the room, in utter disbelief that it was over, but from Season 1, we know that Moore is the king of cliffhangers.

Carbito
September 24th, 2005, 09:15 PM
I liked how Tigh's voice broken as he was saying "she is going to execute them both for murder and treason", it show that he really does care about the crew of the Galactica dispite the fact he goes around calling them nuckle heads and such. It shows a new depth to his character.

HOTDOG
September 24th, 2005, 09:31 PM
WHAT THE FRAKIN' GODS WAS COMMANDER ADAMA DOING?
From what it looked like on TV, Pegasus has at least 4 to 5 times more vipers than Galactica, They are all Mark VIIs too! If they really engage in battle Galactica's vipers are done for! I almost screamed at the end seeing that Pegasus send out 3 times as many vipers as Galactica. AND THOSE VIPERS ARE EMERGENCY VIPERS ONLY(CAIN SAID "LAUNCH EMERGENCY VIPERS") and there are the squadron send out for do the Recon with Apollo. GALACTICA ARE OUT MATCHED BADLY!

I DIDN"T FEEL SORRY FOR PEGASUS NUMBER-SIX AT ALL
THE CYLONS WIPED OUT 12 COLONIES LEAVING 47,000 people running for their lives. THEY MURDERED BILLIONS IN A BLINK OF AN EYE AND ALL OF YOU ARE FEELING SORRY FOR NUMBER SIX?
I did think that it is wrong to "abuse" the CYLON babes,however I WOULD HAVE JUST SHOT HER IN THE HEAD INSTEAD.

HOTDOG
September 24th, 2005, 09:44 PM
1. number one possible OPENING
I THINK THAT WHILE GALACTICA IS FIGHTING PEGASUS, THE CYLON FLEET THAT APOLLO IS DOING RECON ON FOLLOWED HIS RAPTOR AND JUMPED IN THE COLONIAL FLEET...AND DESPITE THE HATE BETWEEN CAIN AND ADAMA...CAIN VOLUNTEERED TO HOLD THE BASESTARS UNTIL THE FLEET JUMPS AWAY. AT THE END PEGASUS IS DESTROYED BY THE "NEW" HUGE CYLON SHIP...

2. number TWO
maybe CAIN CALLED OFF THE VIPERS AT THE LAST MINUTE. SHE GIVES BACK THE TWO GUYS ON DEATHROLE. THEN SHE REQUESTED ENOUGH SUPPLY FROM THE FLEET AND THEN SIMPLY JUMPED AWAY. SHE AND HER BATTLESTAR CONTINUED THEIR LITTLE HUNTING AGAIN....(VERY UNLIKELY TO HAPPEN)

tHE BEST ENDING IS PEGASUS BEING DESTROYED.

EVEN THOUGH WE ALL HATE PEGASUS WE CANNOT DENY THAT WE ALL LOVE TO THE TWO BATTLESTARS IN THE FLEET. i PERSONAL WANTED PEGASUS TO STAY AND GUARD THE FLEET...BUT IN THE END PEGASUS HAS TO GO...ONE WAY OR ANOTHER...

HOTDOG
September 24th, 2005, 09:47 PM
Please Excuse All The Grammar Errors In The Replies Above

MASON
September 24th, 2005, 09:50 PM
WHAT THE FRAKIN' GODS WAS COMMANDER ADAMA DOING?
From what it looked like on TV, Pegasus has at least 4 to 5 times more vipers than Galactica, They are all Mark VIIs too! If they really engage in battle Galactica's vipers are done for! I almost screamed at the end seeing that Pegasus send out 3 times as many vipers as Galactica. AND THOSE VIPERS ARE EMERGENCY VIPERS ONLY(CAIN SAID "LAUNCH EMERGENCY VIPERS") and there are the squadron send out for do the Recon with Apollo. GALACTICA ARE OUT MATCHED BADLY!

I DIDN"T FEEL SORRY FOR PEGASUS NUMBER-SIX AT ALL
THE CYLONS WIPED OUT 12 COLONIES LEAVING 47,000 people running for their lives. THEY MURDERED BILLIONS IN A BLINK OF AN EYE AND ALL OF YOU ARE FEELING SORRY FOR NUMBER SIX?
I did think that it is wrong to "abuse" the CYLON babes,however I WOULD HAVE JUST SHOT HER IN THE HEAD INSTEAD.

Although I don't agree with you about how to treat six, I was just thinking about what card Adama had up his sleeve. If he's counting on the Pegasus Vipers not to fire on their own fleet, he might be mistaken. If the Pegasus Vipers do destroy the boarding party, is Adama counting on the outrage of the civilian fleet to bring Cain to justice?
Not likely, if the civies even question why he was going to save his men, I'm sure they'd be shocked that he was prepared to risk intra-fleet combat to save two men who were defending a cylon.

Pretty strange behaviour for the commander of a Battlestar.

I've gotta see the conclusion, though, I can only see Adama's outrage catalyzing a mutiny aboard the Pegasus. As trite as it sounds, it seems like a Cain Mutiny is the only way out for Galactica.
(EDIT: Or, fittingly, in this show, Galactica could be saved through deus ex machina: either Boomer sending a virus or the cylons showing up with their mystery ship(any guesses as to what this is?))

It's funny, Adama seems to use a one-size-fits-all solution to his power struggles, a handful Raptors and Vipers for the Colonial One, and a handful Raptors and Vipers for the Battlestar Pegasus. I guess it doesn't help that, that's pretty much all he has on his flight deck.

ShadowMaat
September 24th, 2005, 09:50 PM
It's an issue of humanity.

Adama CARES about his crew, which is why he's willing to go up against another battlestar to try and save them.

The treatment of the cylon prisoners is ALSO a matter of humanity: break that and how are we any different from the toasters we're fighting? And the major issue people have is the fact that Six/Gina was RAPED. Repeatedly. If she'd been shot in the head, I don't think people would have minded as much, but to be so thoroughly abused and in the worst possible ways... how is that even remotely acceptable? A prisoner is still a prisoner whether she's human, cylon, or sleestack. And while you may be all for "anything goes", Hotdog, I and apparently a few of the others tend to take issue with it. We can sympathise with her because NO ONE deserves to be treated like that, no matter what they've done and genocide is no exception.

Plus, if you want to split hairs, do we know for a fact that Six/Gina was a willing participant in the destruction of the Colonies? Or was she another sleeper agent like Sharon, with no initial awareness of her true identity?

And speaking of Sharon, does she deserve to be raped and beaten, too? Should she have a bullet put through HER head?

Something tells me you'd have fit in perfectly on the Pegasus.

EDIT: And for god's sake, can you turn off your frackin' caps lock? Please?

appel
September 24th, 2005, 09:50 PM
Awesome episode. I've been watching tons of scifi stuff over the weekend, stargate sg1, stargate atlantis, invasion, threshold, surface, and then battlestar galactica.

I must say that BSG is kicking ass!!!!! :)

There are many unknown variables in that episode:

1. Both Apollo and starbuck (in the new ship) are somewhere out there, or on the pegasus.
2. Vice president is with #6 on Pegasus, who knows what they will cook up together.
3. Nothing has been heard from the president, maybe she will do something.
4. Maybe the fleet will react to that crisis. It be fun to see some reaction from the FLEET, not just galactica. That's the only thing missing from BSG, something else than just a couple of shots of the fleet per episode.


For those wondering about pegasus superior tactical power, then you have to remember that there are few items in galacticas arsenal that can be of use, like that virus they sent to the cylons.

Carbito
September 24th, 2005, 10:03 PM
AND THOSE VIPERS ARE EMERGENCY VIPERS ONLY(CAIN SAID "LAUNCH EMERGENCY VIPERS")

Actaully Admiral Cain said to launch the alert vipers, just like Adama did.

Personally I feel that Commander Adama's reaction was perfectly justified. He obvisouly can't take on Pegasus in a fight, perhaps he is hoping that Cain will choose not take on Galactica seeing as how it will lead to loss on both sides and just hand over his men.

MASON
September 24th, 2005, 10:05 PM
EDIT: And for god's sake, can you turn off your frackin' caps lock? Please?

Maybe caps lock is some kind of Cylon code...

o_O

HOTDOG, are you a Cylon?

sharky277
September 24th, 2005, 10:19 PM
Awesome episode. I've been watching tons of scifi stuff over the weekend, stargate sg1, stargate atlantis, invasion, threshold, surface, and then battlestar galactica.

I must say that BSG is kicking ass!!!!! :)

There are many unknown variables in that episode:

1. Both Apollo and starbuck (in the new ship) are somewhere out there, or on the pegasus.
2. Vice president is with #6 on Pegasus, who knows what they will cook up together.
3. Nothing has been heard from the president, maybe she will do something.
4. Maybe the fleet will react to that crisis. It be fun to see some reaction from the FLEET, not just galactica. That's the only thing missing from BSG, something else than just a couple of shots of the fleet per episode.


For those wondering about pegasus superior tactical power, then you have to remember that there are few items in galacticas arsenal that can be of use, like that virus they sent to the cylons.


A few things:

Starbuck is in the Laura possibly already jumped to the cylon ships even and Lee is in a Raptor with the Pegasus CAG that will jump in a few minutes.

Althought it would be nice to see the fleet do something, they don't really have the power to. They have no weapons on the ships and they would not be fast enough to get between the Vipers.

I don't think Adama will revert to using the cylon shutdown virus, infact he doesn't even posses it, Sharon concocted it somehow with aid from the cylon virus. She used the virus and transformed ti and sent it back at them. With the computers erased completely I don't think she would be able to do it. Another reason the virus wouldn't be used is because it probably just wouldn't work. The Pegasus and itsVipers must be already modified not to be affected by the cylon virus that shut down the Battlestars etc... in the mini because it has fought with the cylons since them. So in my mind, if the original virus wouldn't work then the one Sharon made wouldn't either. But the most damning reason why we wont see the virus is because we just saw it and Ron Moore said about something else in a recent podcast that he doesn't like to use special things over again if they just were implemented. Besides that, it would be a cheap, and non Galactica (more Treck, SG-1, or Atlantis) way, to deal with the situation.

MASON
September 24th, 2005, 10:29 PM
Starbuck is in the Laura possibly already jumped to the cylon ships even and Lee is in a Raptor with the Pegasus CAG that will jump in a few minutes.

Just a little thing, I don't think the Blackbird (Laura) can jump. Although it's a different ship, it's still a fighter, like the Vipers, and even the Mk VIIs don't have FTL drives. The Blackbird is fast and stealthy, but there's nothing to say that it has any kind of FTL drive, it's even more unlikely considering that it has to make room for two engines.

Easter Lily
September 24th, 2005, 10:35 PM
T'was a very disturbing episode... but I'm not sure what's more disturbing... the content of the episode or some of the comments made on this thread... :(

As much as I don't trust the cylon, they are still a sentient life form and should be treated as such. The irony about the whole rape scenario is that if they did really treat the cylon as just a killing machine, they could have tortured it, put a gun to it or shoved it out the airlock... Rape is a human act of using one's sexuality to overpower another, so by raping the cylon, they are treating "it" as a "woman". It isn't about war, justice or even vengeance... it's about deluding oneself that one has power which is in fact, transcient or non-existent.
None of us are that naive to believe that rape never happens but since when did rape become an integral part of interrogation? Let's just call a spade, a spade.

The Pegasus is symptomatic of a larger problem when human beings are merely living to keep themselves alive. Cain has taught her crew that survival is about dominance and fear a la Lord of the Flies. She asserted authority through fear (shooting her XO in front of the entire crew) and dominance (allowing the repeated torture and rape of her prisoner). They don't really have a reason to exist except to kill the enemy. Their goal is merely to survive the enemy. It isn't hope that drives them. It's dominance over the enemy. Cain is not a leader but a strategist. Adama, on the hand, asserted authority through trust and loyalty. Adama, is a visionary... He realised early on that for the fleet to really survive, one needs hope. He was also reasonable enough to realise that just to survive wasn't enought. So he lied. But then he didn't. :p So what we have here are two battleships having to fend for themselves. One not tempered by having to care for others weaker then themselves becomes insular and forgets what it means to be part of a community. Hence, the crew of the Pegasus has largely been dehumanized.

Bl4de
September 24th, 2005, 10:38 PM
Sci-fi is gonna air a Pegasus mini to hold us over till Jan. It will start back at the ship yard and end up with the Galactica's call from Adama Lots of action on the state of the art Battlestar.




Beep....Beep....Beep...man my alarms going off gotta wake up now :(

I have a feeling we don't want to know what those twisted sick SOB's were doing all those months.


Just a little thing, I don't think the Blackbird (Laura) can jump. Although it's a different ship, it's still a fighter, like the Vipers, and even the Mk VIIs don't have FTL drives. The Blackbird is fast and stealthy, but there's nothing to say that it has any kind of FTL drive, it's even more unlikely considering that it has to make room for two engines.

They took the cylon transport's FTL drive out and put it in the Blackbird. You can clearly see it make an FTL jump (short range) when Kara is infront of Lee and then jumps and he loses contact.

MASON
September 24th, 2005, 10:56 PM
They took the cylon transport's FTL drive out and put it in the Blackbird. You can clearly see it make an FTL jump (short range) when Kara is infront of Lee and then jumps and he loses contact.

Somehow I doubt that, there was a hard burn, but no jump. As soon as Starbuck hit the gas, she powered down, so as to go off DRADIS. And I don't recollect seeing any salvage of the Heavy Raider.

sharky277
September 24th, 2005, 11:01 PM
Just a little thing, I don't think the Blackbird (Laura) can jump. Although it's a different ship, it's still a fighter, like the Vipers, and even the Mk VIIs don't have FTL drives. The Blackbird is fast and stealthy, but there's nothing to say that it has any kind of FTL drive, it's even more unlikely considering that it has to make room for two engines.

O, I'm sorry, you're right. Then I guess it's just Lee and Apollo that will be jumping in the Raptor to gather info on the ship. Although, then having everyone in the redi room seems a little rediculous unless Pegasus was going to jump, but if it's just recon there's no reason to but it in that danger. Argh.

Locutus_Of_Borg
September 24th, 2005, 11:08 PM
I thought it was awesome, i also cant wait until next episode.
Although i don't feel any love loss for that thor or Lt. Thorn guy. He was just plain
BLEH

LoneStar1836
September 24th, 2005, 11:25 PM
I was calling upon the electricity gods hoping that I wouldn’t loose power to the hurricane, at least until I could see BSG. They answered the call and waited 30 minutes after BSG was over till they yanked the plug.

WOW! That was intense. Damn good episode even if it was rather disturbing, but I applaud Moore and company because they are not afraid to push the limits. That’s what I love about the show.

Interesting new music introduced in this episode. Different. Still trying to decide if it works or not.

Ugh. I hated Cain as soon as she stepped off that Raptor and addressed Galactica and said “Welcome back to the Colonial fleet.”

If I thought Adama lacked respect for Roslin in the past, Cain really has the disdain going for her. “You look like I just shot your dog.” You could see that Roslin knew that bridges she had worked to build with Adama were being washed away, the spirit of cooperation between military and civilians was fading fast since this new person was assuming command.

I’m guessing the whole situation with Tyrol and Helo went down before Adama could call on Roslin to speak to Cain about them. Not that Cain would listen, but I do think Adama would have said something to Roslin.

I guess they were trying to beat us over the head with “context matters.” Of course it matters, but even if the Pegasus has been isolated with the thought that they were possible the last humans alive, I personally still don’t condone rape in any context. Now I really don’t care about the Cylons. If I were one of the humans in the BSG universe, they could space every one of them as far as I’m concerned, but this guy seemed to get his jollies from rape, and that is what I find really disturbing - the mentality of this officer. And the fact that Cain is bound to know that this takes place is nearly as disturbing.

Wouldn’t he rather read Harry Potter to them instead. That’s what the professionals do these days…. (no that’s not a slam at the book to make that perfectly clear)

Heh. I wonder if Tigh hasn’t just pitched his tent down in the hanger bay. :D I swear he will drink the fleet dry. But I love the character anyway. :P Wonder why Cain didn’t do anything about Tigh. Maybe Tigh is her kind of XO. She may have made the comment about him, but she seems to like her officers loyal, and if anything Tigh is that.

My only nitpicks for this episode were: a)where the hell were the Galactica guards for Sharon and why did is seem people didn’t know this interrogation was taking place (not that they would have been really sympathetic, but I’d imagine they would have at least alerted someone as to what was happening with Helo and the Chief). b) how did the Raptor with Helo, etc. get off Galactica. Who cleared them? Surely people could see what was happening. Why didn’t they alert Adama who could have refused to let the Raptor off of Galactica? Yes, I know it’s more dramatic to have the face-off so it’s not a big problem, but I found it rather convenient that the Raptor could leave Galactica that easily. c) It was too damn short. I hate that this show is confined to the space of 43 minutes. I wanted more.

Three months is entirely too long to wait…..

THSEX1138
September 24th, 2005, 11:25 PM
I would like to bring up the possibility that Captive 6 may actually be Baltar's original physical 6. We know that Peg returned to a planet to conscript some useful folks. We also know that the planetside resistance knows of human-form cylon models. They may have captured one (or more) at that time. Incidently, Cheif Laird is now a prime target for "Cylon Incognito". Since a surviving Battlestar came back to draft the human remnants, the Cylons would certainly make sure one with useful skills would be available. I also think if any other Cylon is on the "Milky Battlestar" it must be Cally. It was just too Jack Ruby for me.

REgarding the episode at large --- I enjoyed it but it really did seem quite rushed. I didn't feel the new interactions and developing emotions were flesched out in sufficient detail. I'm very anxious to see the extended version.

Now, how will this be resolved??? He He He. The Cylon Attack Theory and the Civilian Intervention Gambit are both reasonable. Another possibility is the Illegal Order Argument. This could conceivably lead to a full scale Caine Mutiny(sorry ;) but I doubt this what the writers have in mind. I think it's clear that the Cain and the Peg represents the worst of us. While Adama, Ros and the Fleet represent the balance that shows our human nature at it's complex best. There will be undoubtedly be an unanswered disappearance of the Peg.
WoW! what and excellent theory about Number Six. Now I'm really hyped for season three. There needs to be something like this in the story line that would cause Dr. Baltar pull an Anakin Skywalker on the human race for good this time. Remember what Adama said about choosing sides.

alaskannut
September 24th, 2005, 11:26 PM
we know that Moore is the king of cliffhangers.
king of cliffhanger....maybe :S

meanest of the 'verse's meannies......definitely ;)

masta chef
September 24th, 2005, 11:27 PM
I thought that this episode was one of the best so far. I can't wait to see what happens in January.

This is my first post here, so I'm not quite sure how to post speculations and if that constitutes a spoiler or not, so I'm going to set is a spoiler nontheless. These are some of my speculations of what might happen in the next episode.


-Scenario 1: The president might step in and promote Adama, even though it's highly unlekely considering it's a military matter, but then again, our commander-in-chief is the highest ranked military official so Roslin might promote Adama to fleet admiral and boot Cain out of power. I don't think is is most likely to happen because Cain might not easily give out her power.

-Scenario 2: Galactica and Pegasus are about to go at it when Starbuck comes back with important information or the Cylons attack. This would seem most logical to me because that would probably be the best way to end the battle between the two battlestars. In that process Pegasus gets really damaged and Helo and the Chief escape to Galactica. I don't see how the Pegasus can be integrated into the remaining fleet so it's most likely that it's going to be destroyed in the next episode.

alaskannut
September 24th, 2005, 11:39 PM
Wouldn’t he rather read Harry Potter to them instead. That’s what the professionals do these days…. (no that’s not a slam at the book to make that perfectly clear)
Ah dammit...and here I thought I'd finally found someone who agreed with me :p ;)




My only nitpicks for this episode were: a)where the hell were the Galactica guards for Sharon and why did is seem people didn’t know this interrogation was taking place (not that they would have been really sympathetic, but I’d imagine they would have at least alerted someone as to what was happening with Helo and the Chief). b) how did the Raptor with Helo, etc. get off Galactica. Who cleared them? Surely people could see what was happening. Why didn’t they alert Adama who could have refused to let the Raptor off of Galactica? Yes, I know it’s more dramatic to have the face-off so it’s not a big problem, but I found it rather convenient that the Raptor could leave Galactica that easily.
I've been wondering the same things myself...it was just too convenient that the Peg folks were the only ones there at the time, and it makes no sense that they were able to clear out that quickly, and with the Chief and Helo...last I heard there is this whole jurisdiction thing ;)


Three months is entirely too long to wait…..
AGREED!! :) Three days...no scratch that...3 seconds is too long to wait :o :D

Now where'd that guy who was going to build a time machine go? ;)

Raim
September 24th, 2005, 11:57 PM
Wow.

One of the most intoxicating experiences I've seen to date, in a sci fi show. Very good job, indeed, with the direction and the thought provoking script writing BSG has displayed thus far.

Now, on to the thread. Wow. The Pegasus is an example of what can happen to any of us should we lose our humanity. Being born human, does not always make one Human. So we get to a point in which humans are as humans do. What some of the crew of the Pegasus did is simply put inhumane. I say some of the crew, because there is clear proof of remorse, doubt, uncertainty, and hesitation written across several other members of the command crew throughout the episode. Can't condemn the entire ship but for the actions of a few.

As much as I dislike her personally, Number Six is right, our legacy of barbarism and depravity never lies too far below the surface. Human history is rife with it, and it would seem that our future is as well. Clear examples of which can be seen in parts of our own world as we peruse this blog.

Now, the question beckons... Have any of you thought about what Baltar is to do once Gina is well enough to describe to him what has happened to her? This is the point where after all these months of his psyche "humanizing" the Cylons, -I say his psyche as I believe he is indeed insane- he decides that the Cylons are indeed more "Human" than humanity. It will be this line of reasoning that eventually leads to his betrayal of is race. I hate him already.

On to some smaller things... The rivalry between the crews of the two battlestars is nothing unusual for military units. I was infantry, we'd get into full on brawls with other units routinely. Add to that the fact that the crew of the Galactica has got to be seen as a bunch of lames. It was an era of I forget however many decades of peace. No Cylons for years and no wars, so who was hot, and who was not was totally decided by politics, not battle competence or experience. Getting stationed aboard the Galactica, a floating museum, could not possibly have been a good career move. So that could itself be the reason the Pegasi treat the crew of the Galactica with such disdain, one would think.

The Pegasus wholly outguns the Galactica in every way imaginable. Given that the Galactica was due to be mothballed, and is currently fielding a force of mostly outdated vipers. (Pay little attention to the fact that in ep 9 we saw a bevy of mark VII Vipers mixed in with the older mark V's in the massacre of the Cylon fleet.)

The fact remains that at the end of all human civilization as it were, and with a common enemy seeking the genocide of the human race, there are plenty of things that should be tops on the "to do" list aside from killing ourselves. But there, my good fellows is the thing. ... Humans. Gotta love em.

With surviving members of your race that you can unerringly count not numbering more than 50k, I'd say I wouldn't be executing anyone, but hey, that's just me. Silly Humans. That Cain woman is a little bit out of focus to say the least.

Cain saying "...Welcome back to the colonial fleet," just rankled me. Excuse me miss admiral lady, one ship, does not a fleet make.

The fact that Cain called Adama "Bill" doesn't really mean anything. Once you get up that high, you know all the other commanders, admirals, fleet admirals etc. etc. by name, as there are only a handful of you to begin with. Most of the time you've known or known of each other for years anyway.

The crew of the Pegasus sure does contrast with that of the Galactica. It just illustrates in two different aspects how far the military ideology can be skewed in times of stress. You have the Pegasus, aboard which Admiral Cain rules with aggression, fear, and dominance. Then the Galactica, which Adama governs by what we thought was a stern hand, but now we see that we didn't really know what stern was. In actuality what is contrasted is just how far his crew has strayed from a proper military bearing. Inexperienced, insubordinate, mutinous, just for starters. In his defense, he does have the weight of humanity on his shoulders, so he's got that to consider as well.

Ok, you KNOW that should have been at least a 90 minute episode. I for the life of me cannot figure out why it's so flippin hard to get the network to give these shows the time they need to be all they can be. No pun intended, heh. I know I'd rather watch a 90 minute bsg ep than frickin Tremors or Vampire 3000, sheesh. Who watches that crap anyway...

Carbito
September 25th, 2005, 12:14 AM
it was just too convenient that the Peg folks were the only ones there at the time

There was one of Galactica's marines there who opened the cell door. But I guess he could not do anything because Thorn outranked him.

Tempis
September 25th, 2005, 12:30 AM
Not sure if this means anything, but in the original series, the Pegasus commanded by Cain (Lloyd Bridges) goes toe-to-toe with a Basestar and is sacrificed to let the rest of the fleet escape. It's been a while since I saw this two-parter, but I'm fairly sure it's something along those lines.

Kaviyd
September 25th, 2005, 12:49 AM
Ron Moore is a genius, I cant say how vindicated I felt when Adama ordered the vipers launched and the marines dispatched.

Cant wait for the second episode, wonder what the fleet will say.

Frankly, the situation that Cain created shows not only her immorality but her stupidity. Given that she had carried out the unlikely action of removing Helo and Tyrol from the Galactica without being stopped by Adama -- her message to Adama should have been that she had convicted and executed them, thus presenting Adama with a fait accompli that he could do nothing about. Given her ruthless nature, why were Helo and Tyrol still alive a full minute after she convicted them of murder?

Hatcheter
September 25th, 2005, 03:35 AM
Not sure if this means anything, but in the original series, the Pegasus commanded by Cain (Lloyd Bridges) goes toe-to-toe with a Basestar and is sacrificed to let the rest of the fleet escape. It's been a while since I saw this two-parter, but I'm fairly sure it's something along those lines.

IIRC, it was two Basestars. Pegasus destroyed them both, and was unaccounted for after the battle.

In the new Galactica, did anybody manage to catch the rank of Pegasus' XO, Fisk? I wonder if he was equal to or outranked Tigh.

Locutus_Of_Borg
September 25th, 2005, 04:11 AM
Not sure all i know they said "XO to Xo" and "XO's Descresion"

voigtstr
September 25th, 2005, 04:19 AM
Did anyone else feel that something wasn't right when one of the first things that Cain said was something along the lines of "it's good to have you join the Colonial Fleet." When I heard that I was like, aren't they joining the Colonial Fleet? About 45,000 people are out there, the Peg couldn't have more than 5,000 people there unless I missed some ships there.

It also made me wonder if when that citizen crew man told them that he was taken off of one of the other ships, if the Peg didn't only take in those who could be useful to them. Then disregard everyone else since they were at war. In other words the civilian ships would hold it back, and were seen as a hinderance.

According to the population counts at the start of the show, the pegasus has 1752 on board (perhaps minus a few if there were births in the fleet)

Also hows this for creepy thought, what if Pegasus's crew chief was a cylon and did something to the blackbird?

Excali5033
September 25th, 2005, 05:23 AM
I also think if any other Cylon is on the "Milky Battlestar" it must be Cally. It was just too Jack Ruby for me.

Don't forget Cally was almost raped in "Bastille Day," which would certainly account for her outburst.

dosed150
September 25th, 2005, 05:31 AM
this was an amazing episode if a little disturbing at times but i dont think all of pegasus' crew are scum im sure there are some good people there could be a mutiny next ep because admiral cain doesnt deserve to keep her command it tells you quite a lot about cain with the fact that they have a chief interrogator on pegasus the bridge crew of pegasus looked terrified of cain but when adama's marines board the ship i think theyll be more likely to stand up to her

gorkon
September 25th, 2005, 07:02 AM
As far as the finale, do you think Colonial soldiers would actually fire upon each other? (IMHO Adama did escalate the situation unneccesarily) It's not like there's many of them left. I could see both crews refusing to follow their commanders orders. I mean what's the Pegasus crew going to do? Go down on a hail of fire against the few human survivors of a holocaust? People ultimately want to survive. The Galactica and the rest of the fleet present the best possiblity of that future. It's also something the Pegasus crew obviously doesn't have....a future.

I think this is the point Adama is trying to Press. You got two of his men who have a somewhat checkered past....Tyrol and Helo. Also, Helo himself is responsible for most of the engineering on the Stealth Viper(which Starbuck is taking on it's FIRST real mission against orders (even though we ALL know that SHE will get the scan of the unknown Cylon ship)). Do we really want to lose a man like Helo because he killed a scumbag who was going to rape a Cylon? Hello? Does the fleet have something like the Geneva conventions?? Me thinks that IF Adama does not pull the Presidents card, Roslyn herself will be paying a visit to CIC and be on the horn to Admiral "dipwad" Cain.

Personally, I am a bit offended on the treatment of the Cain character. Totally different from the Lloyd Bridges Cain. IN any case, I am a bit anxious to see how this will all work out. Personally, I hope that Cain decides to attack the unkown and then the Pegasus disappears. I like the fact there's another Battlestar, but do we need a whole crew with such disdain for cylons that they can't even think straight??

chyron
September 25th, 2005, 07:07 AM
I personally would have liked to have had Galactica make initial contact with Pegasus at the end of the prior weeks episode simply ending the episode on a lines like 'Battlestar Pegasus' is that you? Pegasus acknowledges' or someother very simple, short reveal. Of course to keep the BANG in the surprise, I would have liked the producers to have kept the inclusion of the Pegasus a tight VERY tight secret not revealing it to ANYONE.

ShadowMaat
September 25th, 2005, 07:26 AM
How much does the crew of the Galactica know about what happened? Because if it's just "Chief and that toaster lover killed a guy from Pegasus and Adama wants them back in one piece" then it might be a little questionable.

However, if it's known that the Pegasus guy tried to rape Sharon... that might go a long way towards explaining things to the masses. Sure, the crew hates cylons and a lot of them probably don't understand why they're keeping one alive, but...

1) It's THEIR cylon and thus THEY should decide what happens to her.
2) I don't think they're too far gone into hatred to understand that there are some things you simply don't do to a prisoner of any species. The female crew are certainly more likely to sympathise.
3) She may be a monster disguised as Sharon, but that Sharon-y exterior is going to remind them all of the "real" Sharon and how would they feel if this was happening to HER.

aaobuttons
September 25th, 2005, 07:35 AM
As much as I don't trust the cylon, they are still a sentient life form and should be treated as such. The irony about the whole rape scenario is that if they did really treat the cylon as just a killing machine, they could have tortured it, put a gun to it or shoved it out the airlock... Rape is a human act of using one's sexuality to overpower another, so by raping the cylon, they are treating "it" as a "woman". It isn't about war, justice or even vengeance... it's about deluding oneself that one has power which is in fact, transcient or non-existent.
None of us are that naive to believe that rape never happens but since when did rape become an integral part of interrogation? Let's just call a spade, a spade.



What I found interesting wasn't just how dehumanizing the rape torture made the crew of the Pegasus, but how HUMAN it made the cylon. She was tramatized by the violence just like any other human would be, she had no immunity to it, she wasn't able to ignore the pain and humiliation inflicted on her that a machine would be able to. It doesn't appear now that Helo's Boomer is an exception to the rule, but that the Cylons are more human than they or the humans want to believe.


BTW: On the whole Cally as a cylon theory, I'd have to vote against it. It just doesn't seem possible that the two most important gals in Tyrol's life could BOTH be cylon.

ShadowMaat
September 25th, 2005, 07:43 AM
BTW: On the whole Cally as a cylon theory, I'd have to vote against it. It just doesn't seem possible that the two most important gals in Tyrol's life could BOTH be cylon.
It'd be sorta funny, though. Kinda like how Daniel's girlfriends tend to be Goa'uld. ;)

I hope she isn't, though. I love Cally, and I think the cylons already have one strongly emotional model already: Sharon. Don't want to repeat the pattern in someone else.

Bl4de
September 25th, 2005, 07:46 AM
There's definately going to be a mutiny, everyone looked like they had a "wtf" expression on their face when Cain ordered alert fighters to be launched.

Lol nice signature aaobuttons, Firefly rocks :).

"No.. this must be what going mad feels like."

aaobuttons
September 25th, 2005, 07:48 AM
It'd be sorta funny, though. Kinda like how Daniel's girlfriends tend to be Goa'uld. ;)

I hope she isn't, though. I love Cally, and I think the cylons already have one strongly emotional model already: Sharon. Don't want to repeat the pattern in someone else.

Yeah, I can see the poor guy going off the deep end and thinking everyone's a cylon if that happens.

HOTDOG
September 25th, 2005, 10:38 AM
Does any of you think Commander Adama is a cylon?
I know it's weird to think Commander Adama is a cylon but it is usually the least expected character who is a cylon.

Does any of you think that the entire crew of Pegasus are Cylons?
It certainly possible because the cylons could have built a pegasus themselves( or captured it) and then made copies of the entire crew(or 3/4 because they can lie and say the other 1/4 =700 men died in the initial attack). Then the HUGE KNOWN ships is out there to observe the interactions between the pegasus and galactica. Cains provoked Adama and found a good a reason to attack galactica under the impression of a counter offence. Note that Cain has TAKEN AWAY GALACTICA'S BEST PILOTS<APOLLO AND STARTBUCK>. :eek:

spg_1983
September 25th, 2005, 10:44 AM
Does any of you think Commander Adama is a cylon?
I know it's weird to think Commander Adama is a cylon but it is usually the least expected character who is a cylon.

Does any of you think that the entire crew of Pegasus are Cylons?
It certainly possible because the cylons could have built a pegasus themselves( or captured it) and then made copies of the entire crew(or 3/4 because they can lie and say the other 1/4 =700 men died in the initial attack). Then the HUGE KNOWN ships is out there to observe the interactions between the pegasus and galactica. Cains provoked Adama and found a good a reason to attack galactica under the impression of a counter offence. Note that Cain has TAKEN AWAY GALACTICA'S BEST PILOTS<APOLLO AND STARTBUCK>. :eek:Adama is not a cylon for the simple reason that that kind of twist would be too predictable and cliche. im sure some character we have met IS a cylon but its not any of the main characters because for one they have all been tested for sure, and it is too predictable. my money is on Zarek for being a cylon.

Pegasus might have some cylons on board but they arent all cylons, thats the point of the drama of the tension between pegasus and galactica, its human against human.

chyron
September 25th, 2005, 11:11 AM
How much does the crew of the Galactica know about what happened? Because if it's just "Chief and that toaster lover killed a guy from Pegasus and Adama wants them back in one piece" then it might be a little questionable.

However, if it's known that the Pegasus guy tried to rape Sharon... that might go a long way towards explaining things to the masses. Sure, the crew hates cylons and a lot of them probably don't understand why they're keeping one alive, but...

1) It's THEIR cylon and thus THEY should decide what happens to her.
2) I don't think they're too far gone into hatred to understand that there are some things you simply don't do to a prisoner of any species. The female crew are certainly more likely to sympathise.
3) She may be a monster disguised as Sharon, but that Sharon-y exterior is going to remind them all of the "real" Sharon and how would they feel if this was happening to HER.

There should be a certain amount of comradrie among the crew due to the hell that they've been through along with trust in Adama. In other words, by this point the crew wouldn't doubt that the Chief & Helo wouldn't just kill a man. Plus it probably would have gotten out that the Sharon cyclon was invovled and so they probably would have granted them a bit more leaway due to the crews connection to her as well as the Chief & Helos. In otherwords, the crew wouldn't be believe that it wasn't without just cause.

chyron
September 25th, 2005, 11:14 AM
Yeah, I can see the poor guy going off the deep end and thinking everyone's a cylon if that happens.

Until it reveiled that he (the Chief) is not only a Cylon - but their Imperious Leader - whos mind has been programmed so that he himself doesn't know that he's the Cylon leader. The one behind it all. He does afterall have a nack for mechanical things, building them (the Stealth Viper), repairing them and seemingly brining them back from the dead.

chyron
September 25th, 2005, 11:21 AM
What I found interesting wasn't just how dehumanizing the rape torture made the crew of the Pegasus, but how HUMAN it made the cylon. She was tramatized by the violence just like any other human would be, she had no immunity to it, she wasn't able to ignore the pain and humiliation inflicted on her that a machine would be able to. It doesn't appear now that Helo's Boomer is an exception to the rule, but that the Cylons are more human than they or the humans want to believe.

I was really expecting Baltar to say something that would acknowledge the Cylon decimation of the Colonies, but that even in light of that there are certain brutalities that are never justified.

Side note - I could see the Cylons getting royally pissed off and wiping out Pegasus just because of that. Course, I'd also REALLY, REALLY like to see Cain taken as a Cylon prisoner for interogation.

dec55
September 25th, 2005, 11:27 AM
This was probably the most disturbing episode since the series premiere where
Six killed a child, and the Human race got nuked. Seeing the attempted rape on
Sharon who had just saved the fleet was really shocking...(though one wonders if she could have killed the the idiot interrogator and the troops who did not
stop him, if her child would have been in danger. After all the already raped
Six had killed 7 of the Pegasus crew .) I know some posters here were suggesting it happen to the Cylon females since last season, but I have a feeling
everyone was pretty shocked at the actual graphic nature of the scene.
Even though Sharon and Six may not be fully human, they may be part and
are sentient. Pregnant Sharon at least had proved to be a ally ...Six though
had killed. The raping may destroy the Cylons mentally, but it looks to have
destroyed the humanity of the Pegasus crew and made them more sadistic.
It was great to see Helo and Tyrol save Sharon at the nick of time.
(Two knights in shining Armor...not bad Sharon...;) )
(Grace and the rest of the cast did such a good job in depicting it.)

I just wonder, once Sharon and Six on Caprica find out what happend to their counterparts, and if they capture Cain.....if they will have the same fate
for the Admiral....just to get even.


In this episode, instead of fighting the Pegasus with other vipers, they should
have gotten Sharon to send the computer virus to the Pegasus like she did
to the Cylon fleet.

dec55
September 25th, 2005, 12:10 PM
All I have to say is Sharon should shut the Pegasus down with the Computer
virus.......and let Adama and crew bust Cain and her pilots' butts.

ShadowMaat
September 25th, 2005, 12:24 PM
Do I think Adama is a cylon? No. As someone else said, it's cliche, it's stupid, and if he was one, then why the hell would Boomer try to kill him?

Likewise, I doubt that Pegasus is crewed entirely by cylons. Again, it'd be stupid, it'd be too much of a cop-out, and frankly, it's a lot more disturbing to think of HUMANS doing horrible things rather than the cylons. And, again, why the hell would they rape, beat and torture one of their own? I highly doubt it's because she's gone all lightside and "human sympathiser".

There MIGHT be a few cylons lurking on board, but they'd definitely be in the minority.

Raim
September 25th, 2005, 01:17 PM
Does any of you think Commander Adama is a cylon?
I know it's weird to think Commander Adama is a cylon but it is usually the least expected character who is a cylon.

Does any of you think that the entire crew of Pegasus are Cylons?
It certainly possible because the cylons could have built a pegasus themselves( or captured it) and then made copies of the entire crew(or 3/4 because they can lie and say the other 1/4 =700 men died in the initial attack). Then the HUGE KNOWN ships is out there to observe the interactions between the pegasus and galactica. Cains provoked Adama and found a good a reason to attack galactica under the impression of a counter offence. Note that Cain has TAKEN AWAY GALACTICA'S BEST PILOTS<APOLLO AND STARTBUCK>. :eek:


Are you serious?

ToasterOnFire
September 25th, 2005, 01:25 PM
People who give me the "could be a cylon" itch:

-Tigh's wife. Is she hungry for power for only her/her husband or for another reason?
-The priestess that was always around Roslin. She had a hand in setting a lot of things in motion.
-Cain herself, not necessarily most of the Pegasus crew.
-Cally...maybe. The way the camera focused on her when she was next to Adama on the phone in the hallway just triggered something in me. Probably not though.

I'm not getting anything from Adama, and I highly doubt TPTB would go that route. It would be quite a shocker if Roslin was though...

ShadowMaat
September 25th, 2005, 01:27 PM
Are you serious?
Don't ask unless you REALLY want to know. :P

There are stupid ideas and then there are stupid ideas. And then there are the "Dear gods, did someone open up your empty skull and fill it moldy kibble?" ideas. ;)

I am, of course, in no way trying to insult moldy kibble, and forgive me if it comes across that way. :D

Incidentally, to drag this somewhat back on topic, I gotta say, I'm jealous that Sharon has so completely captured Helo's affections. *sigh* He's quite the yummy specimen of stud-dom. :D

ShadowMaat
September 25th, 2005, 01:34 PM
I'm not getting anything from Adama, and I highly doubt TPTB would go that route. It would be quite a shocker if Roslin was though...
Funny you should mention that. I had a theory a while back suggesting that Roslin was, in fact, a cylon, and that all her "visions" were being fed to her by the cylon god/collective/whatever.

Gaeta's also on my suspect list. I never trust uptight do-gooders, they make me twitchy. ;)

Tigh's wife is almost TOO predictible.

I'm actually still working out how I feel about Gaius. That boy just doesn't add up no matter how I work the numbers...

Billy. Poor, nervous, fumbling Billy. When in doubt, target the most unlikely. :D I love him to pieces, but it'd still be an interesting direction to take, and it'd be the next best thing to Roslin herself, especially since Billy is the best placed person to "get inside her mind" so to speak. If the cylons aren't feeding the visions directly into her head, maybe they're doing so through Billy.

Raim
September 25th, 2005, 02:02 PM
Don't ask unless you REALLY want to know. :P



... I suppose you're right, lol. I'll certainly be more careful in future posts, :D .

I suppose Tigh's wife could be a cylon... but that would be just too convenient.

Baltar is going to start to have a serious of twisted revelations come to him once Gina relays to him all that she's suffered at the hand's of the Pegasus crew. I think that will definately be when he turns against humanity. He's not a cylon, and there's no cylon chip in him either, he's just a nutjob.

Cain might be one. Given her disposition. But again I think that she's more than likely human.

With humans it's hard to tell if they're evil because they're cylon, or if they're just evil. Because we're you know, just so bloody smart, we always manage to confound our own interests as a species as a whole.

So what we know what know what 7 of the 12 human form cylons look like now, right? Five more to go then we know them all, provided they just didn't start cranking out new models. Blah.

Excali5033
September 25th, 2005, 02:11 PM
Billy. Poor, nervous, fumbling Billy. When in doubt, target the most unlikely. :D I love him to pieces, but it'd still be an interesting direction to take, and it'd be the next best thing to Roslin herself, especially since Billy is the best placed person to "get inside her mind" so to speak. If the cylons aren't feeding the visions directly into her head, maybe they're doing so through Billy.

Hmm...according to a deleted scene from the miniseries, Billy had JUST started working for Roslin. In fact they first meet on (at the time) Colonial 798. Could be. And it'd probably put Dualla back on the market. (Now I just have to get Lee out of the picture...mwahaha)

Giantevilhead
September 25th, 2005, 03:02 PM
The Pegasus crew are insane. Even if they believed that Six was nothing but a machine, their behavior was still deviant at best. There's a reason why there are no rape video games out there.

neuraloverload
September 25th, 2005, 03:35 PM
great episode. this show keeps getting better with each one. but then so did the original, when i was 7 =)
another point to mention regarding pegasus and galactica is military elitism. galactica was meant to be mothballed very shortly after adama's speech about 'our past catching up with us'. his crew was mostly green and just meant to keep her afloat in the meantime. thats not to say they arent good at what they do, but standard sop in the military is just that. the opening tour and the final call, a mix of operational junior personel and longer term officers (like adama, tigh). where as the pegasus was obviously considered a flagship, with the best and brightest c.f. had to offer a new 'star' admiral. military politics are a onsideration as well. was cain sleeping with someone before the post? did she have a mentor she should have been working with in that regard? so, a relatively unproven officer, commanding over a crew that considers themselves 'elite'. the numbers on the vipers seem a sign of intense competition, not morale boosting. (i wonder if thorne, or others, have similar marks on their lockers regarding 6?) she may have found herself in a place where she had to grow large ones quickly, too quickly, to create an internal balance of action.
im loving the role reversal and questions of humanity as well. what is 'humanity', but a collection of prescribed actions toward a fellow human? a reflection of someones 10 commandmants? if the cylons have found religion,could it temper action or inflame it? what is humanities past experience with religion? since the cylons engaged in human form, does that automatically apply humanity? context is king, or queen, as the case may be.
the civilian conscripts are likely those taken onboard prior to attack, but after docking for refit. you cant expect a viper pilot to install a toilet can you? (one of the best jokes ever, thank you 'clerks')
my thoughts on resolution? imho


the large cylon ship is a colonizer, it holds the seeds to cylon worlds expansion, and is possibly heading towards earth by shadowing the galactica.
cain will redeem herself with a fiery plunge into the depths of the enemy.
pilots aplenty for the galactica.
6, gina, will resurge and probably force cain into the plunge by sabotaging the peg from within with baltar' s help, leaving him just that much more guilty and closer to breaking.
i guess we have to wait and see, unless some poor production assistant hears our call and pulls and fast one ;). dont lose your job though, vancouver is a great place to be if you're employed.

do cylon raiders purr if they are happy?

Raptor 1
September 25th, 2005, 04:40 PM
It was funny because I remember the old Battlestar episode back in the 70s (through old reruns). This was a remake of that one. Plot was different but it was a little similar. I forget how that episode turned out but this one was great. 1. I am a HK fanatic so seeing the marine details with mp5s and G36's made me happy. 2. I'm a former Marine. So when Commander Adama said with no hesitation to Prepare a Marine Detail with Vipers to get Helo and Tyrol I was again happy. My wife just rolled her eyes. But made me mad when Cain arrived aboard and said welcome to the fleet to Adama? Cain was the one who joined the fleet, not Adama! Or is there something I'm missing? Did Cain have more ships with her? I didnt see any.Cain tried to give off the impression that her crew was all proffesional and Adamas crew lacked discipline. Yet she had rapists as officers. Go figure. Still was a great episode to me though.

anotherquestion
September 25th, 2005, 04:42 PM
the large cylon ship is a colonizer, it holds the seeds to cylon worlds expansion, and is possibly heading towards earth by shadowing the galactica.

Among your speculations, I like this one the best.
I think the ship may actually be the oldest ship in both fleets, the "Galleon" as in the "Meadow of the Galleon" as described in one of the Home episodes.

The Galleon, it was implied, was the "seed ship" for the twelve colonies taking them from Kobol, and apparently depositing them group-by-group on the twelve colonies. If the Cylons were able to "reactivate" this ship it would explain a lot of the larger unresolved plot elements:

The Cylons might have encountered a surviving "Lord of Kobol" or the legacy of such a person
The Cylons could have picked up the ability for creating the human models from the advanced techonolgy on the Galleon
The Cylons could have gotten the sources that "extend beyond the Colonial Scriptures" from the Galleon, as obliquely implied by Sharon on Home II.
The whole Cylon monotheism might have arisen from the artifacts or survivors found on the Galleon, making it their new spiritual core. No wonder it enjoys the maximum protection of the Cylon fleet.


The Cylons could have stumbled on this Galleon out in deep space in their flight from the Colonials after the first Cylon war..


cain will redeem herself with a fiery plunge into the depths of the enemy.
pilots aplenty for the galactica.

Cain has been a survivor from the first. I think it is far more likely that she is forced into making another "blind jump", this one with not so happy an outcome, either becoming hopelessly separated from the Colonial fleet, or jumping to a place that disables her FTL capability. Either way the Pegasus will be vritually inaccessible from the fleet, but with an option to show up later.

In any case the Pegasus will jump even though all her vipers are still unrecovered. They will join with Gallactica and the civilian fleet. An uneasy integration period will follow for the pilots originally from the Pegasus.


6, gina, will resurge and probably force cain into the plunge by sabotaging the peg from within with baltar' s help, leaving him just that much more guilty and closer to breaking.

This outcome seems least probable, at this point. I think Baltar will try his best to help Gina, and fail, pushing him over the tipping point entirely in his loyalty to the Cylons over the Colonials. I expect him, actually, to end up somehow on the Galleon "supership", and taking part in it's ongoing operations which will be redirected against the Colonial Fleet.

chyron
September 25th, 2005, 04:51 PM
i cant belelive she let the crew rape her... its one thing to kill a cylon for being a cylon... its another thing to let the entire crew rape her again and agiain... and everytime i saw Cain... i wish i could walk right into the room, and unload a clip into her head

There are of course male cylons (at least 2 if not 3 - mem's getting bad) and we haven't ruled out the Cylons getting pissed at how Pegasus Number Six was treated & going after Cain.

Raises a question - Which of the Cylons do you think would be more ticked off about the Pegasus Six abuse - the male Cylons (being male and possibliy having the same protective instinct as humans males) OR the Number Six models on the grounds that it was one of them?

chyron
September 25th, 2005, 04:59 PM
Theoretically, yes. In reality, the commander in chief is the one with nastiest guns :rolleyes: . Even if Roslin attempted to take control over the military, it's doubtful that Cain would willingly relinquish command, and there'd be nothing Roslin could do about it.

Actually, if Cain failed to obey an order from the Commander-in-Chief she would be the equivalent of disobeying a superior officer, the crime probably being disobeying an executive order. At that point, she could command any military office to arrest Cain. I has been established that the military does report to the President (and I believe the Council of Twelve, unless I'm blurring the two BSG series). At any rate, there are probably laws in place dictating who can declare martial law and probably also the role of the military in time of War. However, unless there's a flat-out military coupe generally the Commander-in-Chief is ALWAYS in charge - martial law or not.

anotherquestion
September 25th, 2005, 05:10 PM
Just a little thing, I don't think the Blackbird (Laura) can jump. Although it's a different ship, it's still a fighter, like the Vipers, and even the Mk VIIs don't have FTL drives. The Blackbird is fast and stealthy, but there's nothing to say that it has any kind of FTL drive, it's even more unlikely considering that it has to make room for two engines.

If the Laura can't jump then it cannot do the recon mission. The Raptor with Apollo and the Peg CAG had to jump to do it.

Albion
September 25th, 2005, 05:49 PM
Great episode! I am so loving this season. Can't wait till it comes out on DVD. I can hardly believe that so much drama, angst and emotion has been packed into just half a season! So much has happend to our characters already, that I felt as though I was watching a season finale and was actually quite startled to be reminded that we have another half season still to come.

One thing which I haven't seen mentioned on this thread with regard to the rape of Gina and the attempted rape of Sharon, and which surprises me that it seems to have been forgotten, is that a few episodes back Kara discovered that the Cylons are conducting mass rape on human females, along with enforced pregnancies. And Six seemed to be in overall charge of one of those Cylon farms. Which made our Six's response to 'Gina's abuse somewhat interesting, I thought. Or is our Six unaware of these experiments going on on Earth? I'm not too clear on whether she's still connected to the Cylon 'hive mind' or been completely cut off.

It was interesting though to see Six, who hasn't seemed to have any empathy to spare when it comes to humans, suddenly shocked and appalled at the treatment meted out to her counterpart.

I'll agree with those posters disgusted at the behaviour of Cain and her stormtroopers. It was clear that although they superficially didn't recognise 'Gina' as human - referring to her as it for instance - that they did in reality accept her humanity, even if they saw it as faux humanity. That was clear in the way that the two crewmembers gloried in their rape of her in the conversation which Cally walked out of. They responded to Gina's responses as they abused her, taking about her reactions. Clearly, they understood she was more than an emotionless machine.

A few posters have postulated that Cally and the female crewmembers of Galactica are safe from assault by the Pegasus crew because the Pegasus crew recognise the difference between the Cylon prisoner and human females. One has rights and the other doesn't, as they see it. But I have to wonder about that. There was clear disrespect from those two towards Cally and the other female crew members, and an air of sexual predation in the room. I think that these guys have crossed a line and, having done so, it wouldn't be too difficult for them to take that one step just a little further. Although, I don't think that this is a plot thread that we'll see on the show, I have to say. I do think it's entirely possible for them to behave that way, though.

I found the whole theme of the episode - that Cain and her crew had, through their experiences, lost their humanity and had descended to the level of machines, debased themselves with their actions to become just as evil as the Cylons - totally intriguing and fascinating to watch.

And I'm with those who wanted to up and slap Cain soon as those words, "Welcome back to the fleet" came out of her mouth. Knew she was trouble right there. Grrrrrrrrr. And, of course, the Pegasus crew acting all superior, lording it over the Galactica crew just ticked me off royally and didn't endear them to me any better. :p

I also loved the moment mentioned in the podcast - and agree! - that it was a great moment to see Helo and Tyrell suddenly snap to and co-operate to save Sharon, when they were at each other's throat just recently. Great turnaround.

I'm hoping that the full rape scene they filmed isn't on the extended 90 minute DVD version of this one. I wasn't clear from the podcast whether it will be or not. The attempted rape was intense and graphic and emotionally disturbing enough. I don't think I could take more. And I think the consquences of a rape as opposed to an attempted rape would needlessly complicate matters. Attempted rape seems to me to have been the right choice in this context.

Anyone know, btw, when SKY is starting with S2? I'm hoping it's in October with SGA and SG1.

Albion :)

HOTDOG
September 25th, 2005, 05:50 PM
Wowa!
Cain Said They Have Been "kickin'" Cylon Asses Since The Attack. Is It Possible?

Galactica Is So Weak That It Cannot Possiblely Stand Up To A Single Cylon Basestar. How Is It Possible For Pegasus To Attack A Fleet Of Them?

HOTDOG
September 25th, 2005, 05:54 PM
I can hardly believe that so much drama, angst and emotion has been packed into just half a season!
Albion :)

Wait a second...Half a season?! Pegasus wasn't the last episode? There's more episodes in season two?? Why aren't they playing it?

spg_1983
September 25th, 2005, 05:55 PM
Wowa!
Cain Said They Have Been "kickin'" Cylon Asses Since The Attack. Is It Possible?

Galactica Is So Weak That It Cannot Possiblely Stand Up To A Single Cylon Basestar. How Is It Possible For Pegasus To Attack A Fleet Of Them?dude, whats with capping every word? it makes reading your post very uncomfortable.

skrip00
September 25th, 2005, 05:59 PM
Maybe there is a method to pull Vipers through FTL?

recalcitrant
September 25th, 2005, 06:00 PM
There's a reason why there are no rape video games out there.

You must not travel to Japan much.

HOTDOG
September 25th, 2005, 06:02 PM
But made me mad when Cain arrived aboard and said welcome to the fleet to Adama? Cain was the one who joined the fleet, not Adama! Or is there something I'm missing? Did Cain have more ships with her? I didnt see any.C

I truly agree with you Raptor 1, i gave cain a "WTF" look when she said well come back to the fleet. I was like "DID I JUST MISS SOMETHING?" IT WAS SHE WHO JOINED ADAMA'S FLEET!! Well, i guess rank matters...i think she meant that the fleet is her's now. You know, welcome to MY fleet.... :eek:

Albion
September 25th, 2005, 06:10 PM
Wait a second...Half a season?! Pegasus wasn't the last episode? There's more episodes in season two?? Why aren't they playing it?

The American season is always split into two, HotDog. You get the first half as a 'summer season' and then a few months hiatus. The 'winter season', aka the second half of a season, begins in January. Shows often end their first half with part one of a two part episode, a cliffhanger, which is resolved in the premiere episode of the season's second half.

Pegasus is episode ten. AFAIK, S2 has 20 episodes in total. So the next 10, starting with episode 11 - Resurrection Ship - should appear in January.

Albion :)

Vorlon-1
September 25th, 2005, 06:17 PM
Adama is not a cylon for the simple reason that that kind of twist would be too predictable and cliche. im sure some character we have met IS a cylon but its not any of the main characters because for one they have all been tested for sure, and it is too predictable. my money is on Zarek for being a cylon.



My biggest problem at pointing fingeres about who's a cylon is Sharon. This Sharon is fully aware of knowledge from many sources as she put it on Kobol. The Sharon on board the Galactica now would recongize instantly if there are hidden cylons around her. At least one of the so called nine models. Would she hold this information back...she told Gauis the number left in the fleet. I don't think Sharon got a glimpse of the reporter due to the stress and all but if she had she would have known.

Darth Buddha
September 25th, 2005, 07:07 PM
Cain was rude to Roslin about her being president. She has kicked ass and it isn't even funny.
Yep, but Roslin, having picked up on that, should have taken the initiative and promoted Adama to the role of head of the military. If that's an Admiral, then so be it. If it's a Grand Admiral, then that too.

A president needs to have a Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, or its equivalent, that they have confidence in. If the President/executive of the Colonies is like the U.S. model (so far it seems to be) she can and should rearrange the command structure to suit HER needs.

Her failure NOT to act when Cain didn't return her calls was a sign of a weak leader, not a strong one. Her failure to demand Cain's logs and have them evaluated by a military officer SHE trusted was also


...if Cain requires Adama to recognize her as a superior due to the chain of command then she would be a hypocrite to not recognize the authority of the President. The situation may not have been resolved by calling in the big political guns but it may have kept it from turning into the bloodbath that I'm afraid we're going to see in January.
Cain probably would not have recognized her authority if she gave her an order, but if she promoted Adama to be Cain's superior, I suspect that a good many of the officers on the Pegasus would have GLADLY accepted Adama over Cain... making Cain's position untenable.

Essentially, Roslin could have, and should have, hamstrung Cain at the first sign of trouble.


right after Baltar saw number six lying on the floor in the cell, he should have gone to Adama and the president, and claimed that Cain is a cylon and should be killed right away... which might have worked since he is "the cylon expert"
Good thought. But not to claim that Cain was a Cylon, but instead report the rape as torture technique. It would have been FURTHER reason for Roslin to do what was necessary to cut Cain's legs out from under her.


yes, i think that she killed her xo since he refussed to follow a crappy order, and should be exicuted for it, since she didnt give him/her a trial for disobying a direct order
Yet ANOTHER reason for Roslyn to undermine Cain!


The president has the power to issue pardons for both the men. Adama would've went to her first. Unrealistic.
I don't think there was time... but it was yet ANOTHER great way for Roslyn to intervene if there had been.


Helo at least would've been stripped of his rank for fraternizing and protecting an enemy combatant.
Considering at the time the fraternization began, he thought she was a fellow officer and they were alone behind enemy lines, that's a hard sell. Further, given that this "enemy combatant" has actively collaborated with humans to escape from Caprica, collaborated with Roslyn's quest and even saved Adama's life by killing his assassin, and finally aided the Galactica's crew in dealing with the Cylon virus ALL FOR THE BENEFIT OF SAID OFFICER AND HER UNBORN CHILD, taking any action against Helo would be ill advised.

Helo represents leverage they desperately need, and is the reason the Boomer is an asset to the fleet while Gina apparently was not much of an asset to Pegasus.

Strategy and need trumps military rules every time. It has to.


Think about it...Adama has had Roslin and the rest of the fleet to keep him sane. Cain had nothing but her ship and her military training. They were all alone for this entire time, thinking the rest of humanity was simply destroyed. All they cared about was kicking some Cylon ass and when you have a ship full of military folk you're going to want to rely on that military training to get the job done.
Nevertheless, she's devolved a good deal. She's killed her own XO in cold blood, she's complicit in the raping of prisoners... just what kind of leader IS this? I don't think Adama would EVER have degraded that far.


I must say this was the most disturbing episode of series. The rape scene with Sharon and that dude was just creepy. :eek:
It was indeed creepy, but it raised some interesting questions.


As brutal as it seems, how would you react after billions of your countrymen were obliterated in cold blood? I can't say I agree with that behavior, but then again I haven't seen my world blown up in a mushroom cloud.
To quote Frank Herbert...



Atrocity is recognized as such by victim and predator alike, by all who learn about it at whatever remove. Atrocity has no excuses, no mitigating argument. Atrocity never balances or rectifies the past. Atrocity merely arms the future for more atrocity. It is self-perpetuating upon itself--a barbarous form of incest. Whoever commits atrocity also commits those future atrocities thus bred.
Some acts degrade the perpetrator. Torture is bad, rape is bad... torture by gang rape is abominable.


Pegasus obviously sees the cylons as machines, killing machines to be exact. If you refuse to bestow the Cylons with any humanity, how could you actually abuse them?


You have to realize that many of them see her as just a machine. Might as well be a blow up doll or something; they never had a Boomer to bond with and think "hey, maybe they're not just a bunch of wires and code..."

To them the Cylons are just robots. Raping a human being is one thing, sticking your dick in a toaster may be damn weird but it ain't rape.
Ah, yes, dehumanize your enemy.

If it were a toaster version, I could see such treatment, but that's clearly not the case. They are physically undifferentiable from humans. But you are right, dehumanization is a classic stance. It was used by the Nazis with the Jews in the holocaust. It was used by slaver takers and slave owners of kidnapped Africans and their descendants.

Do you really want to be using the same argument as Hitler, slave owners, and butcherers throughout time.


BTW what would you call the water "interogation" Kara put Leobon thru? How about the beatings? It looked like torture to me.Do you really want to compare a rather short term harsh interrogation and execution of a spy to the long term gang rape of a spy... or worse, the attempted gang rape of somebody who is NOT a spy but demonstrably a collaborator WITH your side?


To be honest I don't think most Americans can comprehend true torture. Real torture always includes removing body parts. :p
What monumental and uninformed bull**** is this, FM?

I assure you, I know of at least three ways to torture you TO DEATH without ever cutting off anything.

Your comprehension of torture, including your later posts, is sophomoric at best. I suggest you try Jerome Frank's "Persuasion and Healing". Moreover, you utterly discount the value of hope in coercion. Start carving somebody up and hope is out. They know the gig is up. More importantly, humans can and do become desensitized to pain. If it is your only card, then I'm sorry, you will NOT invariably break the individual. Read up. Folks DO manage to completely resist.

Torture does NOT always work. Torture often backfires insofar as when folks don't know what you want they WILL make things up, so you'll never know which of the lies they've told are true if any. Moreover, if in fact they are toasters as you argue elsewhere, then your arguments regarding pain are even further out.

But beyond the disinformation you've provided, I must say I find your arguments morally repugnant. If your concept of torture MUST NECESSARILY involve the removal of body parts, then I surely hope that you are never put in any position of command, judgment, or any othe authority ever.

To me your posts here are the posts of a sociopath. While I grant the Cylons humanity, I must seriously question yours. I do know this, I'd never share a foxhole with you, or even an office. You can rationalize things far too easily.


When in extremely stressful and life threatening situations, sometimes removing all shadows of your humanity and relying solely on your training is the one and only thing that gets you through a mission alive.

I'm not saying what Cain did was right, just saying that it wasn't wrong. Also, like Adama said, if Starbuck is going to wear the uniform then she should obey the rules. I don't care how good of a pilot she is, she can't "choose" to disobey orders she doesn't like. That's not how the military works and it's not how it should ever work.
What regulations endorse rape as an interrogation technique? Which ones endorse the killing of an XO in cold blood for refusing an order?

Cain's actions are unquestionably wrong. They are wrong by any military code, they are wrong from any moral standpoint, and they are even wrong from a unit cohesion standpoint. Your argument isn't even moral relativism... it's an apologists approach for that which is inexcusable.


Speaking of disgusting, my poor cylon pretties are being bashed and raped (or attempted for that matter). That was hard to watch. :(

Pegasus crew... DIE!!!
Now, now. There are clearly some decent folks on Pegasus. Obviously Cain's first XO was a stand-up guy (and was shot for it), and while Cain's current XO isn't that assertive, when push comes to shove I think he'll do the right thing. The Deck Chief for Pegasus (the civillian pressed into service after the Cylon attack) seems like a good guy too.

In any bad situation like that, there will always be those who will do the right thing if they are given an out to do so. With Cain ruling Pegasus with and iron fist, and a pistol, with no place else to go, they never had that chance.


I can't even begin to address the excellence of Adama's reaction to the trial. I had a smile on my face a mile wide when he decided to go tactical. :D
Yep, but what does he have up his sleeve?

Adama isn't going to pit a 40 year old warship that was scheduled for decomissioning and a handful of vipers against a modern warship and a larger viper force if he doesn't have another card to play.

Easter Lily
September 25th, 2005, 07:29 PM
What I found interesting wasn't just how dehumanizing the rape torture made the crew of the Pegasus, but how HUMAN it made the cylon. She was tramatized by the violence just like any other human would be, she had no immunity to it, she wasn't able to ignore the pain and humiliation inflicted on her that a machine would be able to. It doesn't appear now that Helo's Boomer is an exception to the rule, but that the Cylons are more human than they or the humans want to believe.


BTW: On the whole Cally as a cylon theory, I'd have to vote against it. It just doesn't seem possible that the two most important gals in Tyrol's life could BOTH be cylon.

That is a terrific point... By those very acts of violence and sexual assault, they not only humanized the cylons but we also we saw how humanized the cylons had become... how vulnerable they were to some of the frailties that inflict "humanity".

ShadowMaat
September 25th, 2005, 07:39 PM
A few posters have postulated that Cally and the female crewmembers of Galactica are safe from assault by the Pegasus crew because the Pegasus crew recognise the difference between the Cylon prisoner and human females. One has rights and the other doesn't, as they see it. But I have to wonder about that. There was clear disrespect from those two towards Cally and the other female crew members, and an air of sexual predation in the room. I think that these guys have crossed a line and, having done so, it wouldn't be too difficult for them to take that one step just a little further. Although, I don't think that this is a plot thread that we'll see on the show, I have to say. I do think it's entirely possible for them to behave that way, though.
Absolutely. And worse, they could "justify" their actions by saying that (for example) Cally was a cylon, so it doesn't matter. What makes them THINK that? Well, she was rude and insubordinate and wouldn't follow the orders she was given. Or she looked at him funny. Or she's been hanging around the equipment and then something went wrong, so she must have sabotaged it.

It's disturbing the number of ways in which something like that could be rationalized, especially in a mind which is already deviant.

bestshowontelevision
September 25th, 2005, 07:57 PM
Unbelievable.....Consistently the best scifi drama ever made. The beginning of the episode was moving for the crew to discover Pegasus. If you remember in the last episode, Adama mentions to Col. Tigh that crew has finally reached their breaking point. Can you imagine what the crew would feel like to discover that after all their losses and sufferings, they had found other Caprica survivors! Imagine the elation. That would be enough emotion to forget their losses for a while. Then.....it can all change in a heartbeat. Again, the reaction of Adama was priceless after finding out the unfair trial and sentencing of Helo and Tyrol. At that moment, the music playing in the background along with his reaction and forecoming confrontation was priceless. Can't wait for the conclusion of the episode in January.

LoneStar1836
September 25th, 2005, 08:45 PM
I can’t remember if someone has already mentioned this, but another nitpick I had was that I can’t believe these prison cells are not monitored by cameras and microphones. Here Baltar is rambling away that he was sleeping with a Cylon. I can see Galactica not having its cells monitored like that, but the Pegasus seems to be a state-of-the-art battlestar. Obviously, they don’t, but I find that a little convenient.

For me, the image that really stuck out in this episode was Sharon’s act of pulling the blanket over her. This show is so great about conveying emotion through visual imagery and body language.

ShadowMaat
September 25th, 2005, 08:57 PM
I can’t remember if someone has already mentioned this, but another nitpick I had was that I can’t believe these prison cells are not monitored by cameras and microphones. Here Baltar is rambling away that he was sleeping with a Cylon. I can see Galactica not having its cells monitored like that, but the Pegasus seems to be a state-of-the-art battlestar. Obviously, they don’t, but I find that a little convenient.
Yeah, I wondered the same thing, in fact. I also wondered if Cain would use the tape to try and blackmail Gaius (to what end, I dunno) or present it as evidence that Baltar is a Cylon sympathiser and a traitor to humanity who needs to be destroyed. It would also, of course, be further evidence on why Adama and his crew are not to be trusted.


For me, the image that really stuck out in this episode was Sharon’s act of pulling the blanket over her. This show is so great about conveying emotion through visual imagery and body language.
Yeah. Good to know that SOME shows, at least, still know that you don't need to waste a page worth of exposition where a simple gesture will do wonders.

x_sid
September 25th, 2005, 09:00 PM
Did anyone notice that The Pegasus looked a lot like the Galactica did from the original series. I got the overall feel when I looked at Pegasus there was a lot different about her. I mean obviously she is newer, but it didn't look as though her landing pods retracted like Galatica's.

Side not I honestly like the exterior look of Galactica. She just looks cooler, more like a work of art. I guess they don't build em like they used to.

What does everyone thing?

dec55
September 25th, 2005, 09:34 PM
Did anyone notice that The Pegasus looked a lot like the Galactica did from the original series. I got the overall feel when I looked at Pegasus there was a lot different about her. I mean obviously she is newer, but it didn't look as though her landing pods retracted like Galatica's.

Side not I honestly like the exterior look of Galactica. She just looks cooler, more like a work of art. I guess they don't build em like they used to.

What does everyone thing?

Looked like the Pegasus had more exaust ports than the the Galactica.
Their position were also in a circular config.

LoneStar1836
September 25th, 2005, 09:46 PM
Yeah, I wondered the same thing, in fact. I also wondered if Cain would use the tape to try and blackmail Gaius (to what end, I dunno) or present it as evidence that Baltar is a Cylon sympathiser and a traitor to humanity who needs to be destroyed. It would also, of course, be further evidence on why Adama and his crew are not to be trusted.It would provide an interesting predicament if there were cameras. How would Baltar worm his way out of that….

As sadistic as that officer was with his torture, I can almost totally see him taping his sessions (if there aren't built-in cameras) and going back and watching them for kicks as repulsive as that sounds. I have to thank Jammer and crew for building that cell with strategically placed bolts that jut out. That’s one human I’m not sorry to see die.

Giantevilhead
September 25th, 2005, 10:11 PM
You must not travel to Japan much.
They do not have rape video games in Japan, they have lots and lots of porn/sex video games but no rape games.

Raptor 1
September 26th, 2005, 01:33 AM
I truly agree with you Raptor 1, i gave cain a "WTF" look when she said well come back to the fleet. I was like "DID I JUST MISS SOMETHING?" IT WAS SHE WHO JOINED ADAMA'S FLEET!! Well, i guess rank matters...i think she meant that the fleet is her's now. You know, welcome to MY fleet.... :eek:

Hotdog, yeah i thought of that too. I think maybe it would have been better if Adama had said, "Welcome, I relinquish fleet command to you, what are your orders?" Or something along those lines. Because he knows that he will have to give up command of the fleet. You know?

Sisko197
September 26th, 2005, 01:36 AM
Among your speculations, I like this one the best.
I think the ship may actually be the oldest ship in both fleets, the "Galleon" as in the "Meadow of the Galleon" as described in one of the Home episodes.

The Galleon, it was implied, was the "seed ship" for the twelve colonies taking them from Kobol, and apparently depositing them group-by-group on the twelve colonies. If the Cylons were able to "reactivate" this ship it would explain a lot of the larger unresolved plot elements:

The Cylons might have encountered a surviving "Lord of Kobol" or the legacy of such a person
The Cylons could have picked up the ability for creating the human models from the advanced techonolgy on the Galleon
The Cylons could have gotten the sources that "extend beyond the Colonial Scriptures" from the Galleon, as obliquely implied by Sharon on Home II.
The whole Cylon monotheism might have arisen from the artifacts or survivors found on the Galleon, making it their new spiritual core. No wonder it enjoys the maximum protection of the Cylon fleet.


The Cylons could have stumbled on this Galleon out in deep space in their flight from the Colonials after the first Cylon war..

Cain has been a survivor from the first. I think it is far more likely that she is forced into making another "blind jump", this one with not so happy an outcome, either becoming hopelessly separated from the Colonial fleet, or jumping to a place that disables her FTL capability. Either way the Pegasus will be vritually inaccessible from the fleet, but with an option to show up later.

In any case the Pegasus will jump even though all her vipers are still unrecovered. They will join with Gallactica and the civilian fleet. An uneasy integration period will follow for the pilots originally from the Pegasus.

This outcome seems least probable, at this point. I think Baltar will try his best to help Gina, and fail, pushing him over the tipping point entirely in his loyalty to the Cylons over the Colonials. I expect him, actually, to end up somehow on the Galleon "supership", and taking part in it's ongoing operations which will be redirected against the Colonial Fleet.


This thread (or rather this post) forced me to HAVE to register just to contribute to this idea. ;) So be kind to a longtime lurker. And my idea isn't really that involved beyond what was already postulated here.

You suggest that the larger ship than the standard basestar might be the galleon. That they might have encountered a Lord of Kobol that taught them to replicate human DNA and that is what happened. I think anyone who suggests the Cylons can manufacture copies of specific people is forgetting what Sharon/Caprica said to the Resistance. They can't reproduce. Notice, now. They have tons of copies of the same individuals, but they can't make new models. They just copy them, a lot of the time with the same memories and personalities. That's why Six (in Baltar's head) said that, "this model was always weak." They share the same personalities and only when their experiences diverge is when they begin to change somewhat. Most are likely never exposed to circumstances that can cause divergence in personality. Even Sharon/Battlestar from Season 1 never really acted like a Cylon, except in short moments. She died a human-like Sharon.

I think the Cylons are trying to master the secret to creating new models. I think that they have been reproducing the same "souls" they were given, they realize that Man's weakness as a creator was that they can only be given souls by creatures with souls and that is their one, overriding limitation. They are powerful, their souls can transfer to other bodies, their intelligence is vast, and their will absolute. But while they can transfer and they can duplicate, they cannot make a new soul. That is why they need humans; and that is why Sharon states they need "love." That is why Six is so obsessed with "love" from day 1 ("Do you love me, Gaius?" "Are you serious?"). That is why the marring of an act of love so destroys Pegasus Six.

I'm straying. I have to say I really like the idea that this is the Cylon version of the Galleon and I wish I had been the one to think that up! It got me to thinking though. How many colonies other than Earth are there? 12. How many models of Cylons are there? 12. What if the human Cylons are the clones of the 12 Lords of Kobol? That would explain why the Cylons have no respect for religions that worship the Lords of Kobol, would explain why Sharon sided with the ship representation of Caprica, and could give a clue as to what the baby between human and Cylon/clone would end up being. The thirteenth tribe. Perhaps to the Cylons Earth is not a home, but a who. A way to finally make their own home and their own lives. To make new souls.

Consider that each human cylon seems to represent a peculiar personality. Very strong in their characterization of those traits they embody. Six is strongly sexual, Sharon strongly caring, PR guy is strongly intellectual, "In the River" religious guy is so uber-zealous, the "You need to have babies" doctor model is the worrier, and new-Xena model may well be the "earnest model."

Anyway, that is my pet theory on what is going on. The Cylons recreated the Lords of Kobol and have been trying ever since to use them or other methods to create more "souls" for their people, but have been frustrated by the fact that God and Man have them and can replicate them while they merely can have them.

Darth Buddha
September 26th, 2005, 01:50 AM
Interesting, but perhaps you should actually start using the "Lord of Kobol" as we know them... they appear to be Greek Gods.

Ergo, we will have an Apollo for certain (arrow of Apollo). We know we have an Athena (Temple of Athena). We will likely have an Aphrodite. Is Six an Aphrodite? She's not a good fit. She's not Athena or Artemis, as they were virginal godesses. Nor does she fit any of the other (presumably) Greek godesses.

Sharon MIGHT be Demeter, the Earth/Fertility godess. If so, look for her baby to be kidnapped by somebody Hades-like!

The Doctor model MIGHT be Hephaestus/Vulcan, but he seemed to have a lot more empathy than Hephaestus exhibited. He's certainly not Ares, Zeus, or Poseidon.

The reporter character MIGHT be an Athena or an Artemis. Probably Athena.

But I can't fit them all. So I'm not really seeing the fit with the "Lords of Kobol", or at least the limited information we have on them thus far.

Sisko197
September 26th, 2005, 02:02 AM
Interesting, but perhaps you should actually start using the "Lord of Kobol" as we know them... they appear to be Greek Gods.

Ergo, we will have an Apollo for certain (arrow of Apollo). We know we have an Athena (Temple of Athena). We will likely have an Aphrodite. Is Six an Aphrodite? She's not a good fit. She's not Athena or Artemis, as they were virginal godesses. Nor does she fit any of the other (presumably) Greek godesses.

Sharon MIGHT be Demeter, the Earth/Fertility godess. If so, look for her baby to be kidnapped by somebody Hades-like!

The Doctor model MIGHT be Hephaestus/Vulcan, but he seemed to have a lot more empathy than Hephaestus exhibited. He's certainly not Ares, Zeus, or Poseidon.

The reporter character MIGHT be an Athena or an Artemis. Probably Athena.

But I can't fit them all. So I'm not really seeing the fit with the "Lords of Kobol", or at least the limited information we have on them thus far.


I wouldn't expect a *perfect* fit since they seem to be very human-like and not deity-figures. But I would expect a decent fit. Like most legends, myth is 5% truth, 95% interpretation after it goes passed a certain length of time. It might be that the Cylon models tend to de-humanize certain aspects of the clones' personalities. After all,they are *clones* and not the actual Lords of Kobol, one would assume. We have seen Six crying when she was describing Sharon/Caprica's escape with Helo as her being weak. I assumed that was the Six model remembering what she thought of as her moments of "love" with Baltar.

Raptor 1
September 26th, 2005, 02:19 AM
Well the cylons wanted to study us? Welcome to humanity! At times humanity can display its beautiful side, and unfortunately its ugly side too.
Has it been determined how gaias sees #6's image all the time? The cyclons dont know the history of thier own copy. Like one #6 wouldnt know that another #6 was captured? I have to admit when I saw her laying there I was exactly mad, and #6 trying to pitch her little "Stop being a scientist for one second and Look at the lady laying there" speech didnt really move me either. Considering she helped to destroy an entire planet. I thought maybe they just beat the crap out of her.
Also it was heroic that Helo and Tyrol ran to Sharons rescue but Thorn was still just a Leiutenant. Helo is the same rank. Couldn't he have just ordered Thorn to stand down? Then filed charges against Thorn? Even if nothing came about from the charges. it would have bought Sharon some time.
Also when Cain gave the order to launch vipers, her second in command. I forget his name. but he was against it. Yet she went through the order anyway. But she had a look like she was extremely stressed. Like she was about to crack. Did anyone else notice it? Maybe its just me.

chyron
September 26th, 2005, 02:34 AM
Also it was heroic that Helo and Tyrol ran to Sharons rescue but Thorn was still just a Leiutenant. Helo is the same rank. Couldn't he have just ordered Thorn to stand down? Then filed charges against Thorn? Even if nothing came about from the charges. it would have bought Sharon some time.
Not neccessarilty, I seem to recall that in the US Armed Forces that when two officers have the same rank, the senior officer is the one with the Earlier commissioning date. If they both have the same commission date, the senior is the one with the lower Social Security number. Also, I'm not certain wether or not the BSG militar has sub ranks as in Leiutenant Junior Grade, Leiutenant Commander. Again, in the USAF both would be referred to as Leiutenant and Commander respectively (even though there's also Leiutenant and Commander). If there's anyone in the Miltary - 1.Keep kicking butt in Iraq. 2. Feel free to correct me.

Darth Buddha
September 26th, 2005, 02:38 AM
I wouldn't expect a *perfect* fit since they seem to be very human-like and not deity-figures. But I would expect a decent fit. Like most legends, myth is 5% truth, 95% interpretation after it goes passed a certain length of time. It might be that the Cylon models tend to de-humanize certain aspects of the clones' personalities. After all,they are *clones* and not the actual Lords of Kobol, one would assume. We have seen Six crying when she was describing Sharon/Caprica's escape with Helo as her being weak. I assumed that was the Six model remembering what she thought of as her moments of "love" with Baltar.
Given that the Greek Gods exaggerated specific attributes and aspects of man and woman just as you are positing for the Cylons, I'm afraid I would expect a far better fit than "5%". Moreover, if the fit were only 5%, then your idea has no predictive value. No testable implications. Nothing that would make us slap our heads after the fact and say "of course"! Right now, by my estimate, we have ONE good fit, TWO half fits, and the remaining three are contrary to your model as they fail to fit ANY available member of the pantheon. That's a 40%. You could probably do as well by chance with any group of twelve people and a copy of Jean Shinoda Bolen's books (check 'em out on Amazon).

Ergo, the link isn't "clever". It'd be sloppy mystery writing, and the mystery here is THE central arc. So while in a real life situation I might buy in merely on the 12/12 correlation, this isn't real life. You really don't HAVE anything beyond the 12/12 correlation, and there are plenty of OTHER appearances of the number 12 and it could be connected to any of those other appearances. This is fiction, and Ron Moore is trying to be clever. In my opinion, he's more clever than your Gods/Cylons parallel with a 5%, or a 40%, fit.

Sorry to be blunt with you on your first and second posts, but if you are going to posit a grand theory such as this, expect it to be assessed rigorously.

Personally, I find it more plausible if you back it off a peg. For example, perhaps they have only the twelve types of personalities as you say, and are unable to breed with other cylons because they have no overlap. Whereas with a human, who is a blend of (hypothetically) of all twelve, there are enough commensurables to form a personality. Perhaps THAT is what they need.

There are probably a dozen (pardon the pun) other ways you could interpret the different models attributes as well. But making them clones of the Lords of Kobol .. then exaggerating their characteristics into patterns DIFFERENT from the also exaggerated personalities of the Lords of Kobol just isn't much of an organizing principle. Now if he decides to ditch the Greek Pantheon for some of the Lords of Kobol, then you might be back in contention.

Raptor 1
September 26th, 2005, 02:42 AM
Not neccessarilty, I seem to recall that in the US Armed Forces that when two officers have the same rank, the senior officer is the one with the Earlier commissioning date. If they both have the same commission date, the senior is the one with the lower Social Security number. Also, I'm not certain wether or not the BSG militar has sub ranks as in Leiutenant Junior Grade, Leiutenant Commander. Again, in the USAF both would be referred to as Leiutenant and Commander respectively (even though there's also Leiutenant and Commander). If there's anyone in the Miltary - 1.Keep kicking butt in Iraq. 2. Feel free to correct me.

Yes commisioning dates do apply but I think that as an officer it is still his right to intervine in what is going on. Especially if he feels what is goin on violates military protocol, or is illegal.If Thorn was senior to Helo, that still makes Helo second in command of the room. The only others was the chief and the marines. Ever see Crimson Tide? Denzel Washington's character releived the captain of his command because he felt he was no longer in control of his senses . And he wasnt even the same rank.

chyron
September 26th, 2005, 02:43 AM
Interesting, but perhaps you should actually start using the "Lord of Kobol" as we know them... they appear to be Greek Gods.

Ergo, we will have an Apollo for certain (arrow of Apollo). We know we have an Athena (Temple of Athena). We will likely have an Aphrodite. Is Six an Aphrodite? She's not a good fit. She's not Athena or Artemis, as they were virginal godesses. Nor does she fit any of the other (presumably) Greek godesses.

Sharon MIGHT be Demeter, the Earth/Fertility godess. If so, look for her baby to be kidnapped by somebody Hades-like!

The Doctor model MIGHT be Hephaestus/Vulcan, but he seemed to have a lot more empathy than Hephaestus exhibited. He's certainly not Ares, Zeus, or Poseidon.

The reporter character MIGHT be an Athena or an Artemis. Probably Athena.

But I can't fit them all. So I'm not really seeing the fit with the "Lords of Kobol", or at least the limited information we have on them thus far.
That I think would be strechting it like someone did who tried to make a direct parallel between the Twelve Models of Cylons and the Twelve Colonies. In that instance, I don't believe that its shear conincidence, but to try and do a one-for-one match is pushing it. Anyways, it is quite common in soceities to name children after historical figures wether real or fictional.

Darth Buddha
September 26th, 2005, 02:52 AM
That I think would be strechting it like someone did who tried to make a direct parallel between the Twelve Models of Cylons and the Twelve Colonies.
Also a stretch. We're reading from the same page.


In that instance, I don't believe that its shear conincidence, but to try and do a one-for-one match is pushing it.
Not if you assess it as a piece of mystery fiction. The parts need to click at the end. If they're going to use the clones of the Lords of Kobol, then there's going to be a better fit than we've seen thus far. Maybe EVERY SINGLE ONE from here on out will fit, which will improve the fit to 75%. Then I might be impressed. But if so, then we would already KNOW the persona of every single Cylon from here on out.


Anyways, it is quite common in soceities to name children after historical figures wether real or fictional.
This point is apparently wholly non-sequitur and irrelevant. We're talking personalities/souls, not names. Are you saying the names of the Lords of Kobol are just coincidentally the same as the Greek Gods? Then are you also suggesting that the Arrow of Apollo being appropriate for the Greek God who was also an archer is a further coincidence?

Here are the Gods mentioned and their parallels with the Greek Gods.

# Zeus - The father of the gods. Tom Zarek has twice referred to Commander Adama as "Zeus" returning to Olympus (Bastille Day, The Farm). So we have Zeus (fit #1) who is a leader (fit #2) on Olympus (fit #3)
# Apollo - His son, said to be the god of the hunt and of healing (Bastille Day). Moreover, this god is apparently an archer. So thats fits #4-8.
# Artemis - (Flesh and Bone) Fit #9/9.
# Aphrodite - (Flesh and Bone) Fit #10/10.
# Athena - Comitted suicide "out of despair over the Exodus of the thirteen tribes" (Home, Part II). Her tomb holds a map to Earth. (Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I) Her suicide is the ONE contrary point. Fit #11/12. In reality, it doesn't contradict the model.. but it doesn't fit it either, so I'm going to split the difference and make it 11.5/12.
# Hera - (Home, Part II) Fit #12.5/13.

It seems pretty clear to me that Moore has removed the Mormon influence on the religious lives in the original series and replaced it with the a classical Greek mythology from the evidence thus far. That is, by the way, a 96% fit on thirteen points of data.. not a 40% fit on five.

If that's not where you were headed, then I'm not following your point.

fishbone
September 26th, 2005, 04:11 AM
My only question is doesn't the President have any power over the Admiral?

I dont think in the BSG universe that the President is also the Commander and Chief.
Lets assumes she does for the sake of argument. If she has war powers then she would also need aproval from the council of the 12. They are already at war for that matter and any good CNC does not just remove a general/admiral just for the sake of doing it. The President at this time does not have any reason to do so other than she wont answer the phone. Not a good reason for removal of rank and title

mpenn4077
September 26th, 2005, 05:11 AM
If you recall, the president and Adama agreed that all military matters would be handled by him, and with a higher ranking officer just replacing Adama as the military commander of the fleet, that that would remain.

As for why the Pegasus looks diffrent that the Galactica, the Galactica is the oldest ship in the fleet, and from what i've read, the Pegasus is a newer Mercury-Class Battlestar.

Albion
September 26th, 2005, 05:39 AM
I can’t remember if someone has already mentioned this, but another nitpick I had was that I can’t believe these prison cells are not monitored by cameras and microphones. Here Baltar is rambling away that he was sleeping with a Cylon. I can see Galactica not having its cells monitored like that, but the Pegasus seems to be a state-of-the-art battlestar. Obviously, they don’t, but I find that a little convenient.

Yes, I wondered about that, too. Kept wanting to slap my hand over his mouth, going, "Ssssssssssh. Walls have ears!" :p

I had a thought last night. What if, Cally had gone to the cell after Tyrol and Helo had been taken away and found a distressed Sharon? Given that Cally was obviously disgusted and appalled by the knowledge that the Cylon on Pegasus had been gang-raped, and with her own near-rape on the Astral Queen in the mix, I doubt that she would have been able to resist offering Sharon comfort. Especially as she's generally shown as being an empathic character. Which might have made for an interesting dynamic, considering that Cally felt such hatred for the other Sharon that she killed her. Could have been interesting to explore, that one, especially if it set up a moment of bonding that changed Cally's feelings.

One thing which amused me about this episode was that I have always had a real problem buying the fact that the fleet is acting like this big democracy, given the situation they're in - running, fleeing, struggling to survive on a daily basis, under constant attack etc etc. It always seemed to me much more likely and indeed desirable, that for so long as they were on a war footing it should be a benign dictatorship. Adama should gather all resources, parcel them out evenly (no Cloud Nine for example), people should be assigned tasks that are productive and useful as fits the needs of the fleet (no press pack or political talk radio shows - what use are they when you're under attack from a Cylon? Eeesh) The needs of the many and so on. Until such time as they find a safe haven and settle down, when they can start reverting to a democracy.

So I was amused by myself when we basically got that in Cain - and I wanted to slap her right from the start. :p Course, her dictatorship is slightly less than benign. ;) But all the same, couldn't help but tell myself, "Be careful what you wish for..." :D

Oh, and I keep meaning to ask and forgetting - what's the difference between a Viper and a Raptor? One detail I've obviously missed out on noticing when watching.

Albion :)

mpenn4077
September 26th, 2005, 07:10 AM
The Viper is a Fighter, and the Raptor is a combination shuttle/bomber/assault ship/ electronics warfare platform

Darth Buddha
September 26th, 2005, 09:17 AM
The Viper is a Fighter, and the Raptor is a combination shuttle/bomber/assault ship/ electronics warfare platform
That's an odd combination for a multi-role. I don't think even the Germans in WWII, who were so extreme as to make their aircraft inferior in an effort to have them fit in too many niches, ever came up with something that performed THAT many roles.

But back to the rape/torture issue. There's one interesting question raised by the use of such techniques that nobody has mentioned, though FM did stumble on it inadvertantly.

If you are going to use torture, how do you then draw a line at what is allowed and not allowed? For example, the U.S. is currently complicit in torture via rendering of prisoners to "allies" with far fewer human rights assurances. Even a naturalized American citizen who was refused re-entry has been rendered to a second party for a while to more thoroughy interrogate him.

So what is the U.S. government willing to give a wink and a nod at? Anything that doesn't leave permanent marks, so they don't have to make people "disappear" after they've been questioned? FM's part's snipping would make things pretty evident to the Red Cross and Amnesty International if anyone was ever released in such a state. Making people disappear would also be caught... though plausible deniability (at least for U.S. citizens, but perhaps not for Arabs, Persians, or Pashtuns) might be maintained.

If no physical marks are in, then rape is in. So are some other phenomenally brutal tortures that could even kill if taken to the ultimate level, but heal quite nicely if not. Is that where you'd stop?

If that's too far, then how DO you say when torture has gone "too far"? Just what ARE the criteria? Once you are willing to torture, just where does the slippery slope end up?

Bl4de
September 26th, 2005, 10:10 AM
I'm confused where was this "Galleon" mentioned in the series?

masta chef
September 26th, 2005, 10:18 AM
#6 kills model on Pegasus kills Cain and Adama gets promoted

Albion
September 26th, 2005, 10:38 AM
The Viper is a Fighter, and the Raptor is a combination shuttle/bomber/assault ship/ electronics warfare platform

Thanks, mpenn!

Albion :)

Darth Buddha
September 26th, 2005, 10:40 AM
Um.. well this link will possibly get me banned but what the heck:

(I deleted the link)

I've personally seen other games (point and click games) where the main objective is to setup and commit rapes on females.
Egad. What a wonderful thing to "game" and thereby desensitize yourself too...

... and just when I thought this thread couldn't get any more disturbing. But if you are going to discuss a show with torture by gang rape, I guess there's no way around it. You either discuss the show, or you don't.

dec55
September 26th, 2005, 12:13 PM
That's an odd combination for a multi-role. I don't think even the Germans in WWII, who were so extreme as to make their aircraft inferior in an effort to have them fit in too many niches, ever came up with something that performed THAT many roles.

I think the US has done such things but with superior aircraft.
The C 130 is a gun ship, a transport, and sometimes a assualt vehicle.
And also puts out fires.......very good plane for a 40 year design.

I think the Raptor is just a combination of the Apache,S3,BlackHawk,and Superstallion roles.....throw in recon duty too...like the SR-71.

mpenn4077
September 26th, 2005, 12:14 PM
yeah.....just the whole idea of that game is wrong.

as for the Raptor, those are just the roles i've seen it in, with the exception of bomber, and i threw that in for good measure

hyzmarca
September 26th, 2005, 12:24 PM
Yeah, I wondered the same thing, in fact. I also wondered if Cain would use the tape to try and blackmail Gaius (to what end, I dunno) or present it as evidence that Baltar is a Cylon sympathiser and a traitor to humanity who needs to be destroyed. It would also, of course, be further evidence on why Adama and his crew are not to be trusted.


Yeah. Good to know that SOME shows, at least, still know that you don't need to waste a page worth of exposition where a simple gesture will do wonders.

It wouldn't be that difficult to talk his way out of. He said that he was going to play mind games with her and try to gain her sympathies. For all any other human knows, he was simply lying so that she would feel more comfortable with him.

dosed150
September 26th, 2005, 12:57 PM
yeah.....just the whole idea of that game is wrong.

as for the Raptor, those are just the roles i've seen it in, with the exception of bomber, and i threw that in for good measure

ive seen two examples of it as a bomber apollo fired sum kind of napalm/incendiary missile at those cylons on caprica, and boomer used one to drop a nuke in a cylon basestar

Darth Buddha
September 26th, 2005, 12:57 PM
I think the US has done such things but with superior aircraft.
The C 130 is a gun ship, a transport, and sometimes a assualt vehicle.
And also puts out fires.......very good plane for a 40 year design.

I think the Raptor is just a combination of the Apache,S3,BlackHawk,and Superstallion roles.....throw in recon duty too...like the SR-71.
Good point.

I'm not so sure of the "superior" part, as they have to be judged against the respective aircraft of their day. All of those vehicles are pretty much reliant on air superiority, whereas the He-111 and the other schnell bombers were used in a variety of roles but did have some chance outside of an air superiority umbrella.

But now that you've got me thinking, the De Haviland Mosquito DID fill all of those roles too, so I have to correct myself. It was a fast attack bomber, and ECM plane (even in WWII), a spotter, a recon aircraft, an interceptor, and even an anti-shipping aircraft. Everything but the troop transport.

I guess there ARE plenty of aircraft that have successfully filled a lot of roles... so the Raptor isn't much of a stretch.

ShadowMaat
September 26th, 2005, 01:19 PM
It wouldn't be that difficult to talk his way out of. He said that he was going to play mind games with her and try to gain her sympathies. For all any other human knows, he was simply lying so that she would feel more comfortable with him.
But can you see anyone on Pegasus believing him? Because I can't. They're definitely the type to make up the facts to suit their own interests and if that means demonizing the crew of Galactica, so be it. I'm sure a lot of them already think that Galactica is full of cylon sympathisers, what's one more body on the pyre?

BackStageJim
September 26th, 2005, 01:23 PM
I think Cain is cylon, and a sick one at that. She/it allowed one of her own (in both species and gender) be assulated by the crew. True it might be part of some master plan, but at this point I really can't see the train in the tunnel. Also, kinda confused that Six was not aware in some aspect one of her other selfs was in such poor condition.

If the whole crew are cylons, then I missed the train. I will give credit to TH for for 2.10, and can only guess that in 2.11 she rates an Emmy nod.