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GateWorld
August 26th, 2005, 06:36 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/2072-160x120.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px solid black" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888">GALACTICA SEASON TWO</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">HOME, PART 2</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 207</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
Adama joins President Roslin and her team on the surface of Kobol, intent on reuniting the fleet. Six tells Baltar that he is going insane.

<FONT SIZE=1><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Cikak
August 27th, 2005, 01:37 PM
I just started watching Home Part 2 and I noticed something. Not sure if this is a spoiler but just in case When Baltar is talking to Six, when she changes clothes (or rather puts them on) she flips the chair around and sits back down. If Six is just in his head how did she move the chair? The chair thing isn't just in his head because there are shots without Six of the chair in both positions

Or am I just being nitpicky?

Redwall
August 27th, 2005, 02:40 PM
Yeah, that must be a mistake. I wonder if it's addressed in the podcast...?

LoneStar1836
August 27th, 2005, 02:42 PM
Hehe. I noticed that but I didn’t really think about it. The set people probably didn’t either. I don’t think it’s meant to imply anything…..like Six being able to move inanimate objects, etc…….other than Baltar of course. :D Or at least I hope it’s not meant to imply that....


Heh. My nitpick of the night was who in the heck was lugging around all those tarps they were sitting under when it was raining. They had at least four shelters set up at one point. Those were some pretty big, heavy-duty looking tarps. ETA: Actually it was several tarps tied together, but still that was a heck of a lot of bulk. Didn’t look like many people were carrying packs – just Helo and the remaining redshirt – but no one else as far as I could tell. I’m guessing when they broke camp that final time, they just left them, but somebody had to carry them up until that point. Plus, who was carrying the food and water even if all they were eating was granola bars? The rain ponchos? The blankets? The extra ammo? I guess redshirt dude was a mighty efficient packer. ;)

Only I would wonder about something as stupid as those tarps. :D Course I know why they actually had them, but still....;)

Blade Runner
August 27th, 2005, 03:15 PM
Yeah, that must be a mistake. I wonder if it's addressed in the podcast...?

Its there as a visual cue for when Baltar sat down and appered to be talking to no one

Lt. Elliot
August 27th, 2005, 05:43 PM
I can't believe no one has anything to say about this episodes to where a thread gets started! I just watched it (I had an event at school the other night and missed all three Sci-Fi shows) and I am in total amazement and shock still!

First off, we have a road to Earth! YES! FINALLY! It is amazing, no? The Tomb was so cool and then when Starbuck put the arrow in and they got transported, so awesome! And the constellations and stuff - for some reason, I never connected those to a possible map. Kinda cool, huh? And I'm guessing the star thing they were talking about is our solar system? But when I first saw the constellations, I thought...STARGATE! YES! ULTIMATE CROSSOVER!

Caprica Boomer! She shot Zarek's sidekick and established herself as Sharon, exactly as she is. Nothing hidden to pop up later like Galactica Boomer. I think she took to the situation of almost being choked to death well. I love that they've managed to keep Grace Park on the show cuz she is awesome!

Third, Baltar and Six. Man, first, she was naked. That was like :cool: ! And then she's in sweatpants?!? Usually she's in a skimpy dress, right? That kinda shocked me. And her whole talk about Baltar's weak mind snapped - she's a genius. Secondly, they first had me going like they weren't gonna go sexual and then in the MRI, she grabs his he-la-he-la. I just kinda rolled my eyes. I'm glad he isn't crazy.

They had some awesome lines in this episode!
**Adama: Everyday is a gift...
Roslin: From god.
Adama: No, from you.
**Starbuck: This thing could have come with a frakking handbook. But no, that would be too logical!
**Baltar: So who - or what - are you?, exactly?
Six: I'm an angel of God sent her to protect you. To guide you, to love you.
Baltar: To what end?
Six. To the end of the human race.
**Sharon: I'm Sharon but I'm a different Sharon. I know who I am. I don't hidden protocals or codes lying in wait waiting to be activated. I make my own choices, I make my own decisions and I need you to know this is my choice.
**And the most unsettling of the night:
Sharon: I'll take the father, you take the son.

FeloniousMonk
August 27th, 2005, 06:12 PM
One thing that bothers me is exactly what happened in the tomb. Where they transported somewhere? If so, where to and how did they get back? Was it just an illusion? If so, did it turn off on its' own or did it give them time to record the star patterns? I tried to listen to the podcast but for some reason they've encoded it in such a way that makes it impossible to play in any decent media player and it's choppy as hell in Winamp (unless they're just bad recordings). He mentioned that he just ignored the process of them getting back to the ship and other menial things but how can you just gloss over a thing like this?

Where the hell were they and how'd they get back?

beamerxl
August 27th, 2005, 06:32 PM
I was under the impression that they weren't actually transported to earth, that they were still in the tomb but there was some sort of hologram. The door slammed shut to make it nice and dark, and I figure that a giant hologram is a little more logical than some mystical, completely unexplained transportation device.

What bothers me is that they didn't encounter any more Cylon ambushes on the way to the tomb. A couple landmines and 2-3 centurions are all that's guarding the path? And especially after the first fight in part 1, I would think any Cylons in the area would have heard the commotion and come to check on things.

Lt. Elliot
August 27th, 2005, 06:48 PM
From what I got from the Podcast:

1. They were not transported to Earth. It was indeed a hologram.
2. It was originally planned that a) the hologram "sky" would have broken apart due to the mortars from a Cylon attack, b) Centurions would climb up the cliffside to the tomb, and c) there would be a second battle in the episode on their way back to the fleet. However, all of that was taken out for some reason.

mikeforrest2003
August 27th, 2005, 07:37 PM
Well it does make sense for the Fleet to have a map then to have them blindly running from place to place looking for clues like in the original series.

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
August 27th, 2005, 07:39 PM
Best episode of the season. Very exciting. :)

IMForeman
August 27th, 2005, 07:45 PM
I hope they don't actually head out to the Lagoon Nebula... that's hell and gone from here, really. More than 5,000 light years away. I get the impression that they would be heading in the wrong direction if they head for M8.

But that map did remind me of Stargate. In both the use of Constellations as a guide post (Were the Gods of Kobol the Ancients? ;) ) and the way the Tomb of Athena worked just reminded me greatly of the Hall of Thor's Might.

-IMF

Cikak
August 27th, 2005, 07:49 PM
**And the most unsettling of the night:
Sharon: I'll take the father, you take the son.

I know that is in the preview, but as far as I know its not anywhere in the actual episode, neither is the part of the preview where Sharon says "Come here you should see this"

Lt. Elliot
August 27th, 2005, 08:40 PM
I know that is in the preview, but as far as I know its not anywhere in the actual episode, neither is the part of the preview where Sharon says "Come here you should see this"

It was in the actual episode. Almost 31 minutes in, she says it with her conversation with Zarek's man after Adama has arrived - its right after a commercial break. Same with "Come here, you should see this." It is seconds after.

Liebestraume
August 27th, 2005, 08:46 PM
I read it somewhere that this episode was originally planned to be the finale for the first season. The episode number certainly makes sense, if we assume there are 20 episodes to each season. And the theme also makes sense: now they can cease their seemingly aimless wander and have a true sense of direction.

The Celestial Map (at least that's how I think of it) scene is exciting as well as awe-inspiring, and the idea quite cleverly connects to the 12 tribes. I find it interesting that it was Lee who pointed out the Lagoon Nebula -- perhaps a connection to Apollo's Arrow? The nebula should lead them towards the 12 contellations, which in turn will lead to the solar system and finally Earth.

That is if they first shake off those pesky Cylons. And perhaps Baltar as well. Actually that part confused me a little. I have on occasion entertained the possibility that perhap Six is not "real" but the manifestation of Baltar's psychosis, but this episode seems to scoff at that idea. So, if Baltar is not crazy and Six is not a chip, then what is she? The part of Baltar that knows he is a Cylon?

Boomer certainly doesn't seem to have any doubt about herself being a Cylon. Not only she accepts it as a matter of fact, she doesn't seem to be apologetic about it either. I kind of like that about her, and her "I don't have hidden programs ... I make my own choices" spiel. Still I wonder if she is being a bit naive about escaping her linage. She seems to think she is not "wired," but her taking on the memories of the "other Boomer" surely belies at least a part of that. This should be very interesting to watch.

The juxtaposition of the Galactica and Kobol scenes at the beginning is excellent. It builds tension effectively, as well as conveys what each party is up to without undue exposition. And the way Adama goes about finding Roslin's party is just so ... military. I really appreciate these bits and pieces of "realism."

But once they meet up, I feel there is entirely too much hugging (and clapping). To be sure, I enjoyed the father-son, Adama-Kara, Adama-Roslin scenes individually. But putting them side-by-side just felt too pat. They just emerged from a sort of "contitution crisis" -- surely there would be some feeling of recrimination and consequences? But looking at them at the end, you'd never know. I think that is my only nitpick.

Nate
August 27th, 2005, 08:57 PM
I am just curious if anyone else noticed Baltar flipping us off when he raised his glasses looking at the brain scan. bad baltar ;P

Easter Lily
August 27th, 2005, 09:51 PM
This show just keeps going from strength to strength... I certainly hope they don't find earth any time soon because I would like them to keep stumbling around in the dark for a while... as much as it is realistically possible. I'm glad that this show has come at a time in my life that I can understand it, appreciate it and at a time when I have a bit more insight into the human condition.

Adama is an engaging study in leadership... and EJO is doing a fantastic job portraying the quiet dignity and turning the veiled charisma on and off at will. It just intrigues me that this stooped figure with such a world-weary face can suddenly emerge and become this charismatic, leader of men with the eloquence of Churchill. This is a man who can see the bigger picture, who can humble himself and has a great capacity for generosity. And he doesn't second-guess... He lives with all his demons and forges ahead.
Now, I begin to see why the cylons and his adversaries really fear him. He is a rallying point... a catalyst... he leads and people follow. The man is an initiator.

Roslin, is an administrator not a leader IMO... She does what she has to and keeps things in order but it is her role as prophet that propels her as a rallying cry. As far as I can tell, her character is largely driven by circumstances and how far she is able to accommodate these circumstances.

I loved the build up with everyone heading towards the tomb... the juxtaposition of the Kobol scenes with scenes of the Galactica. The little moments of tension between characters really serve to heighten expectation of what is to come when the tomb is found.

The look on Lee's face when he came face to face with his father said a thousand words. It was as if the prodigal son had come home... as it were... a mixture of guilt, shock, apprehension and disbelief. It looked like it was the last thing he ever expected to see. And that embrace... reminiscent of the scene in the miniseries when father and son reunite at Ragnar. It was full of pathos... I find it interesting that Lee's loyalty and love for his father never wavered the whole time... his lashing out against Sharon the first and subsequent times really reflected this inner turmoil.
This and the scene with Roslin, really cements in my mind why Adama is the true initiator. I was quite struck by the chemistry between these two on this occasion. It affirms to me that the idea I've had of Lee being trapped between two estranged parents is not far from the truth.

I have a theory about the arrow of Apollo... and I was jubilant, to say the least, that it is somewhat confirmed in this episode. I was excited to see that the theme, if you like, worked on 3 levels in this episode... First, the literal arrow... the object placed on the archer's bow. Second, Apollo/Lee Adama being instrumental in opening the cave and thirdly, already mentioned by Liebestraume, Apollo/Lee pointing to the Lagoon Nebula. Actually I might even say that it was interesting to see Lee holding a compass during the hike up the rocky ridge. I've been thinking for sometime now, that the arrow of Apollo works on both the symbolic and literal front. Whether that is the end of it... I can't say for certain. But I am quite sure that Lee will play a very large part in the survival of the fleet and its finally locating earth.

Speaking of finding and locating earth... I think it is fairly certain from what Six says to Baltar that the cylons are using the fleet to find earth and the goal appears to be seeing its destruction also. This makes me wonder if they will actually find earth and ask for sanctuary or find earth and then return to Caprica. So it is possible for them to find earth but never actually go there.

sharky277
August 27th, 2005, 09:55 PM
I'm almost positive Doc Cottle said f*** after Baltar banged his head. I'm like 99% sure. Just want to point that out. :D

Nate
August 27th, 2005, 10:13 PM
I'm almost positive Doc Cottle said f*** after Baltar banged his head. I'm like 99% sure. Just want to point that out. :D
After just rewatching that scene with the sound way up I have concluded that he says "Oh for.. I told you not to move!"

sharky277
August 27th, 2005, 10:16 PM
In an hour and a half I'll watch it again and we shall see! :D

LoneStar1836
August 27th, 2005, 10:18 PM
I’ve been agonizingly waiting 7 days for this episode. Both Stargates just deemed to drag on forever and then this episode went by too fast. :D And now I have to wait two weeks till the next one. :eek: Anyway since the thread wasn’t open last night I just rambled on and on…….and on and on…..

Nice little opener there to this one with the cuts between searching for the tomb on both Kobol and Galactica. Still doesn’t top the one to KLG I though.

My most anticipated moments of the night were the reunions and I wasn’t disappointed though I wanted more but thinking about it, what they had was just right. Though I hope we get additional conversation later about what had happened and that it’s not just going to be whitewashed over with all the forgiveness. Anyway….Great expressions of emotions by everyone. That’s why I love the show – the people aspect of it……to me they seem so genuine in their feelings and actions. I could really care less whether they are searching for Earth or a big purple dinosaur. Though I don’t think they’d get so emotional over the dinosaur. :P:D

EJO never fails to disappoint me. Excellent performance by him as always in my book especially when he was eyeing Boomer again for the first time- his range of emotions without saying a word. And then bam! Adama takes her down. Wonder why Zarek made a move to try to pull Adama off of her? What does he care? Guess he was still seriously considering using her to off Lee.

Poor Helo. :( I can’t help but feel for him. So much pain is in store for him. He is such a simple character and the truest one out there because he seeks only to do the right thing (in his mind) because he’s got a good heart, yet he takes so much crap from everyone else for standing by his love for Sharon and the baby. He really trusts and loves her to take this much abuse and not turn his back on her. Touching scenes with those two in this one. I might have to start shipping for those two. ;)

However, can we really trust Boomer? How does she know that Adama asked “Why?” but didn’t know that GalBoomer was dead? (if that’s what she was referring to) Did she just fake her surprised reaction really well or did she not know? Maybe she was playing it up for added Helo sympathy. That little comment (“And you ask why?”) to Adama and his reaction has thrown me for a loop. Not to mention the fact that Boomer was “dead” when he asked that. :S Though her little retort seems to imply, “Yeah, we want to kill you, Adama, because you want to kill us. That’s why.” Either that or she was going back to Six’s adage that murder is man’s true nature, so man must be exterminated.

No surprise about shooting Meirs. The previews all week pretty much gave zero tension to that storyline. I hope someone does a little questioning of Zarek about it though and not think the henchman was acting of his on volition.

Nice handling of the whole arrow/tomb/map thing. I was kind of worried how that was actually going to play out on film. My guess…some kind of advanced holographic representation that was activated by the arrow (same kind of tech used on Cloud 9 for the fake environment). I’m not even going to try to guess how that image got to Kobol. Someone goes to Earth and then comes back and left the info; people on Kobol originated from Earth, built the tomb, and then fled back to Earth; or was it somehow a direct link to something on Earth? I almost think that it indicates that the descendents of Kobol were originally from Earth. Interesting how Starbuck was whispering while the others were speaking in a normal tone.

Cool that they used an actual existing nebula, yet they kept the exact same name (Lagoon Nebula) and Messier designation of M8 and being in the constellation Sagittarius – The Archer. (But they flubbed and had Lee place it in the constellation Scorpius unless that was some how intentional.) On that note, what would Sagittarius be doing with Apollo’s arrow? Doesn’t he have his own? :P I’m terrible with mythology.

Heh. Tigh refusing to clap for Roslin at first. I wonder what he really thinks of Adama for backing down and reconciling with her after all the **** he went through when Adama was out of commission.


Six: I'm an angel of god sent here to protect you. To guide you, to love you.
Baltar: To what end?
Six: To the end of the human race.

Yikes. Six’s final line to Baltar and the look on his face. *shudder* Man she is wickedly evil.

I’m going to go as insane as Baltar if they don’t stop with the whole thing with Six, is she or isn’t she a chip, and her riddles and mind games. Now I think Baltar is a Cylon…..because if Six isn’t a chip and Baltar’s not crazy, she’s certainly no angel….:S TH’s impersonation of Starbuck was great.

To have such a serious episode yet inject so much humor into it. The whole bit with Baltar/Six and then with the doc (that character is priceless), Kara’s crack about the arrow needing an instruction manual and “I think that was the lobby.” Hehe.

Incredible episode. I thought it tied up some plot lines nicely. Maybe a little too conveniently, but we needed to move on so all was forgiven……Hopefully we'll get some additional conversation in later episodes concerning what transpired between KLG and Home.

LoneStar1836
August 27th, 2005, 11:10 PM
I am just curious if anyone else noticed Baltar flipping us off when he raised his glasses looking at the brain scan. bad baltar ;PI think that’s just the actor. He’s done that before during Hand of God when he was pointing out on the map of the refinery where they should bomb.

I've been thinking for sometime now, that the arrow of Apollo works on both the symbolic and literal front.I always assumed that as well because it was too obvious that Lee’s call sign is Apollo and oh yeah we just happen to need something called the Arrow of Apollo to find Earth. :D Just had to always figure that Lee would play prominently into events on Kobol and in finding Earth.

Boomer certainly doesn't seem to have any doubt about herself being a Cylon. Not only she accepts it as a matter of fact, she doesn't seem to be apologetic about it either. I kind of like that about her, and her "I don't have hidden programs ... I make my own choices" spiel. Still I wonder if she is being a bit naive about escaping her linage. She seems to think she is not "wired," but her taking on the memories of the "other Boomer" surely belies at least a part of that.I think this Boomer is acting as an individual model, in that I don’t think she is influenced by some other Cylon throwing an on and off switch to get her to do certain things or that there is embedded programming waiting to be triggered. So if she is telling the truth, then I think she is capable of making her own choices and avoiding any residual Cylon impulses such as to kill….well at least not kill Helo….. Though I do think she is lying about the whole “wired” thing. My only worry is can she really be trusted. I think she’ll do anything to protect Helo and the baby. Anything. But then again her whole demeanor could be an elaborate ploy that is a step in the master Cylon plan to get her aboard the Galactica in order to meet up with Giaus “Instrument of God” Baltar.

Easter Lily
August 27th, 2005, 11:59 PM
I always assumed that as well because it was too obvious that Lee’s call sign is Apollo and oh yeah we just happen to need something called the Arrow of Apollo to find Earth. :D Just had to always figure that Lee would play prominently into events on Kobol and in finding Earth.


Well, you know me... I've been accused of reading too much into things before :p ...
Still it surprises me that nobody on Kobol picked up on it... Didn't somebody ask the question about how they got inside without "the arrow of Apollo"? I suppose the arrow here seems to refer to his arms. ;)
Now, all I'm waiting for now is that the metaphorical aspect of the Arrow of Apollo to come to light... :D

Cikak
August 28th, 2005, 12:00 AM
It was in the actual episode. Almost 31 minutes in, she says it with her conversation with Zarek's man after Adama has arrived - its right after a commercial break. Same with "Come here, you should see this." It is seconds after.

That is probably why I never heard because it was right after the commercial break, Time Warner must be screwing up or somebodybecause commercials don't end at the right time and I end up coming back to a show a few seconds late.

Nate
August 28th, 2005, 12:38 AM
I think that’s just the actor. He’s done that before during Hand of God when he was pointing out on the map of the refinery where they should bomb.



oh i agree but it was extremely noticible, and in retrospect quite symbolic as a protest of how the doctor was treating baltar at that moment in time.

Gategusher
August 28th, 2005, 12:59 AM
I've always thought that somehow Six and Baltar fused in the moment she sheltered him from the bomb blast, way back in the original attack. Her consciousness was supposed to be downloaded into a new body somewhere else and instead it downloaded into him. So she's not a chip, but she is a real person sharing his software.

boodoosy
August 28th, 2005, 02:49 AM
Wow, what an episode! Just when you think BSG can't get any better, they successfully pull off something like tonight's episode.

First let me say that I am overjoyed that Sharon is back. It doesn't matter if she is EJO's or Helo's Sharon.

Admiration aside, Sharon is just like the other Sharon; she is wired in to the big Cylon internet. She proves this by asking when Adama "and you had to ask why?" Chief's Sharon was already dead when Adama asked that question. So that has to mean that Helo Sharon is wired in to the Master Cylon Controller. On a side note, when she repeated that question to Adama, I nearly fell out of my chair. That was so perfect. Who writes this stuff?

Another reason I don't trust Sharon is because I think she is scheming to at least ensure her survival. That speech she gave Helo about loving and trusting her to do what is best for them clearly applies to more than just the incident at the tomb's entrance. She is still very aware of how the humans feel about her, and she has a plan. Maybe her plan is an instruction from the Cylon Master Controller.

Tonight's episode definitely proves that Baltar is a Cylon. Six is the Cylon Master Controller's way of programming him for the final plan. Just as Chief's Sharon was very conflicted with her instructions, you can clearly see that Baltar is conflicted with his new instructions. Baltar is a Cylon mole.

Adama is the man! I don't think he really acknowledges the President's position. He is only supporting her to accomplish his goal of reuniting the fleet.

I was a little upset to see that Zarek's man died before he could expose Zarek's dishonesty. Guess Zarek survives for another week.

The reunion scene on Cobol was fabulous! I loved how Starbuck and Apollo prepared to attack the "noise in the bushes" only to find that Adama himself had already tracked them with his weapon drawn. All those years in command hasn't dulled his infantry skills. Adama is a true soldier. The reunion between Adama/Apollo, Adama/Starbuck, and Rosylyn/her aid (forgot his name) was emotional. It seems that everyone was just happy to see each other forgetting all the animosity between them. They are a true family.

I didn't mean to type so much, but this episode has a lot to offer. I will quit now and have dinner with the family.

Carbito
August 28th, 2005, 03:54 AM
However, can we really trust Boomer? How does she know that Adama asked “Why?” but didn’t know that GalBoomer was dead?

Heh, I completely missed the significance of that line the first time I saw the episode, dispite the facts they showed a flashback of that clip only seconds before.

I'm sure there is much more to this Boomer than we have seen so far. However I don't think the writers will "kill" this Boomer model off because there would be no way to successfully introcude another one into the story line, and I don't think that they want to get rid of this character any time soon.


Tigh refusing to clap for Roslin at first. I wonder what he really thinks of Adama for backing down and reconciling with her after all the **** he went through when Adama was out of commission.

Its going to be really interesting to see how Tigh reacts to Adama's new acceptance of Roslin in future episodes. We also see that a lot of the military agree with Tigh's point of view.

kiwigater
August 28th, 2005, 03:55 AM
Definitely much to think on :D Love that about this show!

I dunno about Sharon.... I don't think she can really MAKE the claim that she's independent of the rest of the Cylons, even if she believes it, so did the other Sharon, it was just an instantaneous takeover when she shot Adama. I don't see any reason why this Sharon should be any different. And her saying to Adama " And you ask why..." gave me shivers! :eek: How could she know that, if as others have pointed out, Sharon was dead when Adama said it!?!

It's amazing how different TH looks not all dolled up, I actually had a little difficulty determining it WAS still Six :o

As always, can't wait for the next ep. Watched this one on a home theatre projection system with a rocking surround sound set up. :D I must see what sort of bribery would be required to watch the eps on it every week..... *plots*

FeloniousMonk
August 28th, 2005, 05:06 AM
I still would've liked to see a definite answer as to what happened in the tomb. It's unlikely they were transported anywhere but the grass around them seemed far too real to be an illusion. They didn't even mention it; Cloud 9 has actual trees and plants, the illusion there is just the sunlight and the horizon created by the dome, everything else is genuine. We're supposed to assume the technology on Kobol can recreate matter as well?

It would've been nice to get at least some kind of comment on it. Other than that I really enjoyed the episode.

Oh and I still think Helo's a pathetic fool :p

Agent_Dark
August 28th, 2005, 05:45 AM
I still would've liked to see a definite answer as to what happened in the tomb. It's unlikely they were transported anywhere but the grass around them seemed far too real to be an illusion. They didn't even mention it; Cloud 9 has actual trees and plants, the illusion there is just the sunlight and the horizon created by the dome, everything else is genuine. We're supposed to assume the technology on Kobol can recreate matter as well?

Not recreate matter, but trick their minds it making it up for them. The human brain can be fooled quite easily by sensory illusions, so I dont think it was too far-fetched at all.

Blade Runner
August 28th, 2005, 06:16 AM
After just rewatching that scene with the sound way up I have concluded that he says "Oh for.. I told you not to move!"

I'm positive Cottle was about to say 'Oh,for fracks sake' and got as far as Oh f',

FeloniousMonk
August 28th, 2005, 07:10 AM
Not recreate matter, but trick their minds it making it up for them. The human brain can be fooled quite easily by sensory illusions, so I dont think it was too far-fetched at all.that makes sense but I still would've liked to have seen some kind of explanation, even a single line from one of them or perhaps a mention of "how do we turn this off?"

boodoosy
August 28th, 2005, 07:19 AM
Originally Posted by LoneStar1836
However, can we really trust Boomer? How does she know that Adama asked “Why?” but didn’t know that GalBoomer was dead?

I can only think of two reasons for this discrepancy:

1. The writers missed this little mistake.
2. Sharon intentionally lied to Helo when he asked her if she had any of Chief's Sharon's memories. She probably lied to gain his trust or maybe to put his mind at ease by convincing him that she did not have any of the feelings Chief's Sharon had for the chief.

Man, Sapporo at 11pm at night makes typing hard.

Blade Runner
August 28th, 2005, 07:25 AM
Originally Posted by LoneStar1836
However, can we really trust Boomer? How does she know that Adama asked “Why?” but didn’t know that GalBoomer was dead?

I can only think of two reasons for this discrepancy:

1. The writers missed this little mistake.


it wasnt a mistake, it was put there on purpose

Gargen
August 28th, 2005, 09:14 AM
Did anyone just suspect that sharon was gonna turn the gun on other guy to prove her loyalty, when they saw the commercial for the first time.

Blade Runner
August 28th, 2005, 09:34 AM
Totally expected it

Aussie_86
August 28th, 2005, 09:50 AM
Apart from the map and Constellations in the Tomb of Athena, The thing that got me the most... 'riled up' you could say... or, maybe thinking, and anxious for future seasons was when Sharon said

"We know much more about your religion than you do" etc... and "we don't worship false idols (stargate much?)"

That means, in the 40 years that the Cylons were gone, they found answers! They found these "lords of Kobol" and somehow found out that they were fake.... something must have happened to make them believe in a One True God.... They know about, just about everything about the Colonial's religion, and mostly it's history.

I've also been looking forward to the Last episode ever, where hopefully it's explained exactly how "it's all happened before, and it will all happen again" etc stuff.

But for now, we've got "The Cylons know more about the COlonial's religion than they do, and there's an actual basis to the religion (ie, Cylons found SOMETHING that will allow them to discredit their religion.... so, somewhere out there, beyond Kobol, there are other traces of The Lords of Kobol or something else like that).. can't wait to find out more


Apart from that, the rest of the episode was great!!!! Can't believe it that we're 7 episodes in, and the intensity and greatness of the show hasn't diminished in the slightest


Aussie

sharky277
August 28th, 2005, 09:59 AM
What if the Cylons have been playing of the Colonials religion and made the tomb to show then the way to Earth because maybe it's not realy Earth its leading them to but the Cylonh home world or a huge Cylon force to wipe them out.

Blade Runner
August 28th, 2005, 10:03 AM
Keeping the Cylons ahead of the game makes them a formidable enemy and one to be feared, even with the few centurians on Galactica were scary

sharky277
August 28th, 2005, 10:32 AM
My theory also fits into why they didn't get attacked any more on the way to or from the tomb. And the only reason why they got attacked at all was to spill the blood needed for the prophecies and make it look like the Cylons were trying to stop them.

Gargen
August 28th, 2005, 10:36 AM
Maybe the cylons fear the tomb or something like it has a built in cylon buster, like thor's hammer, but i could be just accidental that it would mess them up.

Vorlon-1
August 28th, 2005, 11:53 AM
Great episode. I can't wait two more weeks grrrr.

Baltar a Cylon I think not. It was Six who gave him the cylon code in his navigation programming that ultimately fell humanity. He is all too human and it is clear that Six is in love with him, not th model but the man.

Sharon has hidden programming. It was hinted too by Six on Kobol when they realized Sharon wasn't playing thier game anymore, the programming always wins I believe was muttered. The child will trigger it, whatever it may be. Adama Choking Sharon "and you asked why". Gave me chills. Sharon is connected and should be spaced at once, but wouldn't she know who the other cylons in the fleet are? Certainly she remembers the convo with Baltar.

Starbuck is hot :)

keshou
August 28th, 2005, 12:03 PM
I LOVE this show. They've been building to this moment for 6 episodes and it didn't disappoint me one iota. :D

Unlike some leaders Adama has the ability to recognize that a new course of action is needed and move forward with all the determination he previously expended on resisting. Just as he did when Roslin first convinced him to abandon the fight on Caprica (his natural inclination as a warrior) and move on. And boy he's back in charge in this episode. It was fabulous and I worship the ground EJO walks on. His scenes were all amazing.

As much as I love the story arc on this show I treasure the character moments the most - perhaps because we get so few of them on the other Friday night shows. The reunions were all wonderful.

Adama/Lee. I was practically in tears when Adama hugged Lee. I love the exploration of parent/child relationships and I thought the angst of their entire relationship was beautifully portrayed by both actors in this one scene. [On a shallow note Lee looked especially hot in this episode - scruffy is a good look on him :) ]

Adama/Sharon. After Adama's affection towards Lee and Starbuck, I swear there were a few seconds where I had no idea how Adama was going to react. When he threw her to the ground and started choking her I nearly jumped out of my chair. - jeez, what drama.



However, can we really trust Boomer? How does she know that Adama asked “Why?” but didn’t know that GalBoomer was dead?
Dunno. Sharon's remark did appear to be a direct reference to Adama's meltdown over Boomer's body in the morgue. Very creepy, btw. So I don't now how to *handwave* that Sharon seemed clueless about Boomer's fate in her later conversation with Helo. But I also don't understand how the Cylons "absorb" the memories of the Cylons who die. On Caprica, Sharon knew of Leoben's confrontation with Starbuck - "Leoben told you you were special". Maybe all those flashbacks we saw during the struggle weren't Adama's memories - maybe they were an information packet being sent to Sharon. She's only getting bits and pieces. Either that or 1) Sharon was lying to Helo later (don't think so) 2) she's more of a tool of the Cylons than she thinks she is (very possible) or 3) plot hole. :p :D

I figured after seeing the previews that Sharon pulling a gun on Adama was going to be part of a setup to get them to trust her. Helo is just a poor sappy guy in love. And how interesting was the Sharon/Tyrol scene. Poor guy - he looked completely stunned.

Tomb of Athena. That was all very cool. A virtual map of the stars. Lost of questions but at least our little band of survivors has a direction to more in. Are the Cylons skillfully "herding" the humans to find Earth? Sure seems that way at times.

Speaking of Cylons - all the Baltar/Six stuff was fascinating. If there's no chip is there another way that Baltar could be wired? I'm back to thinking he's a Cylon.

So the fleet and the family is back together - after a stirring ceremony with Adama backing Roslin and rallying the troops. Tigh looked none too happy. ;)

Darn - no episode next week. :( But Yay! BSG S1 DVDs out on Sept. 20th. :D

larocque6689
August 28th, 2005, 01:58 PM
Here's this week's excerpts from the podcast. David Eick commentary is indicated with DE.



During the Hercules and Xena days, Rob Tapert used to say women on horseback was the cheapest special effect. The second cheapest special effect is rain. Rain looks great on film, it adds a whole dimension to the scene, you're pulled into the drama in a different way, because there's this inherent desperation to everything, because everyone's wet and trying to survive, so I'm thrilled we kept it. (DE)

--

There's a tremendous amount of information actually about the Cylons, what they know, what the mythos is in the show that comes out in these two episodes. And a lot of it are things that we've talked about for a couple of years and just never really brought out. This was a really good opportunity to do that.

--

This Baltar/Six plot, it was a late developer in the script -- that shot's right out of Scandal, which I love. This whole storyline with Six telling Baltar that he's actually just crazy is something that I think dates back to season one. We were in love with this idea that at some point, Six would change the game, and tell Baltar, "You know what? Just kidding. You're nuts. There's no chip in your head, you moron, you're just having a psychotic break." And it was a really delicious idea and I always wanted to play it, and for some reason it went in and out of a couple of storylines, and then we kind of forgot about it. And then we were working on this script and had to flesh this out into a full-blown episode on its own. And then the question came, what is Baltar doing during all this? ... I love that he just goes off in such a typical Baltar rant there, James off doing his thing, and then suddenly she's laughing. And this is really closer to how Tricia actually looks. Trish wears her hair in a ponytail quite often and wears sweats, and this is kind of who she is. It's kind of fun to just suddenly change the character so completely, and he would be so taken off stride by just how natural she is, and that she seems perfectly genuine that she's telling him that he's just crazy... The look on James' face. He conveys fear so well.

--

This scene was one of the few times that we've actually run up against broadcast standards and practices and they slapped us back down. We argued to no avail. The original line that Tyrol has coming up here is, "Topography is for pussies." And then I added in the beat later where Adama says, "And Adar was a prick." And they wouldn't let us say either one. I actually called broadcast standards and made some whole eloquent pitch about, "Well, it's context." He's not calling someone a pussy. It's not used as an epithet. It's really just sort of a general statement of life. And then Adar is a prick is a joke. It's not harsh, it's not demeaning. And they just kind of went, oh that's really interesting, no you can't say it. It's just really annoying, and it's so arbirary. And it's cable so it's like they really do just make up their own rules. There's no FCC, it's just whatever.

--

This is a high pressure air blaster I was very adamant about us using all throughout prep. I was being told it was impossible because it could cause an embolism. It's blowing so hard into your flesh that it can cause an air bubble and kill you. But I had to have it, and I felt the actors had lived very rich lives. If something were to go wrong, they would die with their boots on. I'd seen it in a James Bond movie the first time called Moonraker, in which Roger Moore is in a contraption that's simluating the G-forces you pull in outer space. I didn't know how they did it until we had our prep meeting here. I said, in Moonraker how does Roger Moore's cheek ripple. Our special effects guys said it's a high pressure blaster, they're dangerous. And I said, how dangerous? Define dangerous. (DE)

--

In early drafts of this, I really didn't have Adama reacting to Sharon. Eddie was talking about this scene he was shooting in Episode 205 where Adama weeps at the corpse of Sharon ("Why?"). He had just got through shooting that, we're on the set, and he said to me, "I love doing that scene, because now I know, if I ever saw that character again, I wouldn't stop at anything until she was dead." And I was sitting with my draft of this episode which had him showing up at this location and sort of dismissing her presence. So this scene came into being... [and I said], "Yeah, you're right. He wouldn't stop at anything until killing her. I'll be right back." (DE)

--

"And you ask why?" What does that mean? It's an interesting creepy moment. It's a legitimate question. How did she know that? I don't know. Write it in... [Re: Eddie's saying, "they're stronger than we are."] I did like that. When you read it in the script, it made perfect sense.

--

The ultimate moment which has since been cut was Eddie saying they're stronger than we are. It struck a chord of confusion that I didn't really ever see, and it was actually a network note that I thought was valid, which was that, does that mean she just gave him the heart attack? Is he referring to her in a literal sense, being stronger than him, or in a greater sense? Had it been covered a little differently, I think it would have resonated but we were so limited by the coverage that we had for good reason.

--

Adama's the one who doesn't want to navel gaze. What's past is past. He owes his life to Laura, which I think is an interesting and unacknowledged truth in the show. That Laura saved all of them back in the miniseries... What I like too about that scene about the two of them, is it's the first time that they use each other's first name. He calls her Laura, she calls him Bill. It's the first time they ever did that.

--

There used to be a Cylon attack after this whole thing with Sharon went down. The centurions came and attacked during the upcoming planetarium sequence. And we eventually cut that... We changed this very moment right here, where Adama gets the gun. It was a late change in the editing room. Originally he took that gun and put it to Sharon's head. And we were playing the beat of will he shoot Sharon or not. And then we just made that lift within the last week, so it plays out more emotionally here, instead of putting another gun to another person's head.

--

A lot of struggle too with Zarek and his responsibility for what happened. Eventually the way this all works, it feels like essentially that because Meier did it, went for this assassination attempt, even though Zarek had told him not to, you kind of feel like you can let Zarek off the hook now. It's sort of why they don't slap the cuffs on Zarek and throw him in jail. The characters don't know of anything that happened or why, but we the audience know that Zarek did try to stop it and then it didn't work.

--

This notion of the constellations is something that I came up with. I wanted to connect it to our present day mythology of the zodiac. The show is replete with symbols and references to zodiacal things. Somehow, these names for these Colonies are not random, there is a connection, and here's the connection. That these people of the thirteenth tribe looked up into the sky and made up these constellations and assigned them to their brethren, the lost tribes.

--

Sagittarian has this prominent arrow and there was this whole mythological story which goes along with his father and why the arrow was bestowed upon him. So it seemed like, well, if the arrow is the thing, then if you put it back in Sagittarius' bow, it is the trigger that gets you to the map of Earth. (DE)

--

Now Jeff did do a fairly faithful interpretation of the end of the film Brubaker which I was watching here in my office a couple of days before we shot this. It's a direct lift, there's no shame about it. I wanted there to be a sense of a polite applause... Michael Rymer saw this yesterday and he said, "Isn't that kind of the same scene as the [end of the] miniseries?" Yeah, kind of. But what I liked about it in the movie Brubaker and what I like about it now, is it speaks to a sense of tradition or ritual. That to demonstrate respect you would clap in unison. And I don't really know why that would be and I don't know that it requires explnation, but it seems to work. In Brubaker it was Yaphet Kotto's praise for Robert Redford, now it's Eddie Olmos' praise for Mary McDonnell. (DE)

SGalisa
August 28th, 2005, 03:06 PM
Wow. A Baltar episode I actually liked for once. Makes the ethereal Six more tangible, and better explains the whole Shelly Godfrey spiritual episode that examined Baltar's spiritual faith aspects. (She did make a hint to his faith factor in the beginning of that particular episode, which was reinforced at the end.) ;)

So, the cylons are aiming to believe in one "God" rather than the many - whom the majority of the (Galactica storyline) humans believe, or give tribute ("personal thanks") to?

Boomer # 2's reactions surprised me, but I've come to expect something opposite from whatever the preview commercials tease about; so it wasn't a total shocker. :)

LoneStar1836
August 28th, 2005, 04:36 PM
It’s going to be really interesting to see how Tigh reacts to Adama's new acceptance of Roslin in future episodes. We also see that a lot of the military agree with Tigh's point of view.Yeah, it will be, though I don’t think Tigh will put up much of an argument. Maybe just some snippy remarks here and there. Now that this whole arrow thing is behind them, I’d guess there is much more room for cooperation between the military and the government because they really do now have a common goal that seems tangible. Before it was “common” but each had a different plan to find it, though admittedly Adama really didn’t have a plan to find Earth other than to wander aimlessly through space in hopes of finding somewhere, anywhere to start a new life. I’m guessing the biggest source of conflict now will come in the form of what to do with Sharon and her baby – keep them or space them - and all the ethical issues involved.

I can see why Tigh wasn’t in the mood to welcome her back, but I think the other military people were probably wondering “Well should we really get all excited about having her back? The Old Man tossed her and we’re supposed to support him so maybe we shouldn’t give her a really enthusiastic welcome back because it might give him the wrong impression that we thought he was wrong.” Them kind of playing both sides of the fence. But then Adama’s steely-eyed glare with the look of “you better clap damn it and mean it or I’ll rip your arms off” reassured them it was okay to be happy that she was back and that the fleet was back together.

I'm sure there is much more to this Boomer than we have seen so far. However I don't think the writers will "kill" this Boomer model off because there would be no way to successfully introcude another one into the story line, and I don't think that they want to get rid of this character any time soon.I totally agree. I mean technically she can always be “replaced” and thus the actress can stay employed on the show, but any other copy is nowhere as interesting or provides us with a sympathetic character because they are just copies. Just giving them the memories of our two Sharons doesn’t really compel me to feel for them like I do these two…well now one. Plus she’s got to have that baby, and if HumanCylon physiology is the same as human physiology then the gestation period for her baby shouldn’t be accelerated. I wouldn’t think. She’s not going to be having that baby next week.....I hope. :D

The baby shouldn’t make an appearance until after the presidential election, I’d guess, which is still another 20 plus episodes away if the average 20 episode season covers about 3 months BSG time, so about this time next year they ought to be getting into all the political wrangling of the election since the six months would be up for Roslin’s term. Course if they don’t find some miracle cure for her, she should also be dead/dying about this time next year……which I don’t see happening because her character is so crucial to the show. I could see the writers killing her off before the show ends (which I hope isn’t anytime soon), but wow that would be such a loss.

Adama is the man! I don't think he really acknowledges the President's position. He is only supporting her to accomplish his goal of reuniting the fleet.I agree that him taking her back is mainly due to him realizing that the fleet could not survive (emotionally) if divided, but I do think his disdain for her actions has dissipated considerably. I think he’ll probably go back to about the same power position that they were at before. He’s not going to bow down to her every instruction, but he will accept that she is once again legitimately in charge of at least the civilian portion of the fleet. I think he came to terms that they were both wrong in their decisions and he had to be the better man and try to set things straight and get over his petty emotional anger, but I don’t think Roslin regrets what she did. Notice how she didn’t say “well I forgive you for deposing me” and feeling that there was no need for her to be forgiven because she had done nothing wrong (only him – at least that’s how I interpreted that) – she only did what needed to be done in her eyes, consequences be damned.

Adama won’t be any more accepting of her authority than he was before, but I don’t think it will be considerably less. (At least not how Zarek was intending on using her as a puppet to control “his” dream fleet.) He’ll still vehemently argue that he should make all military decisions. Her finding this “map” hasn’t elevated her that much in his eyes, I don’t think, but I guess we’ll see. He seems to be a practical guy so I think he’ll still remain uneasy about her claims to see visions and that she thinks she’s some kind of prophet. I can’t see him jumping on the religious bandwagon, even if she was right about the arrow and Kobol. But I do think he’ll go back to giving her the same level of respect he had before for her, if not just a little more since he realizes that he does owe his life to her and more importantly his son’s – or at least that brings it back up to par. I think they've gone back to seeing each other as equals......partners in this journey. Maybe even moreso on Adama's part.

I still would've liked to see a definite answer as to what happened in the tomb. It's unlikely they were transported anywhere but the grass around them seemed far too real to be an illusion. They didn't even mention it; Cloud 9 has actual trees and plants, the illusion there is just the sunlight and the horizon created by the dome, everything else is genuine. We're supposed to assume the technology on Kobol can recreate matter as well?

It would've been nice to get at least some kind of comment on it.Well they didn’t really physically interact with any of the surroundings (I don’t think) so I can buy that it was all a visual illusion – even the grass. Where they were standing the grass was all beaten down so no one had any cause to walk through the tall stuff and actually touch it.

As far as how they got out of there. *shrug* The illusion was on a timer maybe. Personally I don’t care. :) I guess a comment would have been nice, but I’ll leave it up to my imagination. :D

What fascinates me is the fact that somehow information that is only valid and visible to people who are physically standing on Earth made it’s way to Kobol. That I really want to know about. At any other position in space, outside our solar system, the constellations are not going to look the same when you look up at the sky because they are star patterns unique to us. So people standing on Kobol are not going to see our constellations move across their night sky as the planet rotates. Stars in the constellations are all at varying distances from Earth and their brightness is relative to our perspective from Earth. (I’m trying to recall some of what I learned 5 yrs ago in my college astronomy class…..so don’t quote me cause it’s quite possible I’m very wrong….:D)

Which is why I’m leaning towards the idea that the Colonials are all decedents from Earth that traveled to Kobol bringing with them their knowledge of the constellations (since the 12 colonies later adopted these constellations and their names from the old home world [Earth] once they splintered off from Kobol. Otherwise how would they know what the constellations looked like and were called if the 13th tribe fleeing Kobol only created them in remembrance of the other 12 tribes.) Some how society evolved into a polytheistic society on Kobol, whatever happened happened causing people to abandon Kobol and some of them returned to Earth leaving behind a vague way of finding them. Which then would put the setting of this show in the very distant future.

Eh, I don’t know. I just don’t see how images from Earth could be on Kobol unless someone had actually been to earth and seen them. I guess this will eventually be worked into the “all of this has happened before and all of this will happen again” mantra. I just hope Moore and Eick have a half way sane explanation for most everything on this show and don't just chalk it all up to magic or something. :D

FeloniousMonk
August 28th, 2005, 06:35 PM
yeah, it would really get on my nerves if they took the lazy route of "let the audience come up with their own explanation" as we all experienced in the final Matrix movie

Easter Lily
August 29th, 2005, 02:26 AM
Dunno. Sharon's remark did appear to be a direct reference to Adama's meltdown over Boomer's body in the morgue. Very creepy, btw. So I don't now how to *handwave* that Sharon eemed clueless about Boomer's fate in her later conversation with Helo. But I also don't understand how the Cylons "absorb" the memories of the Cylons who die. On Caprica, Sharon knew of Leoben's confrontation with Starbuck - "Leoben told you you were special". Maybe all those flashbacks we saw during the struggle weren't Adama's memories - maybe they were an information packet being sent to Sharon. She's only getting bits and pieces. Either that or 1) Sharon was lying to Helo later (don't think so) 2) she's more of a tool of the Cylons than she thinks she is (very possible) or 3) plot hole. :p :D

I'm not convinced that she isn't a tool of the cylons in spite of all her claims to autonomy... She might like to think that she's independent of programming/control and that she's doing it all for "lurrrrve" but she cannot be sure. No one can. At least someone has the sense to put her in the brig. Whatever the situation is, they all seem to be playing into the Cylon's hands at this point in time. That remark she made about, "And you wonder why?" as well as that steely look she gave saying it, rang all manner of alarm bells.
I hate to say it but Helo's not the most discerning fish in the sea. And I found their conversation about the child-that-is-yet-to-born somewhat cringeworthy. Well, okay... I have a deeply suspicious nature but I think he's too accepting. Also I can't help agreeing with Lee even if he was being rather bratty about the Helo/Sharon pairing.



Speaking of Cylons - all the Baltar/Six stuff was fascinating. If there's no chip is there another way that Baltar could be wired? I'm back to thinking he's a Cylon.
Yeah... just when you think it's safe to eliminate him from the cylon suspect list... they throw a spanner in the works and you have to think again.

Cikak
August 29th, 2005, 03:14 PM
To the people wondering how Sharon knew that, according to the podcast they don't have an explanation for that

Blade Runner
August 29th, 2005, 03:23 PM
To the people wondering how Sharon knew that, according to the podcast they don't have an explanation for that

Yup, they are going to let us ponder that one for a while

Liebestraume
August 29th, 2005, 09:50 PM
Cool that they used an actual existing nebula, yet they kept the exact same name (Lagoon Nebula) and Messier designation of M8 and being in the constellation Sagittarius – The Archer. (But they flubbed and had Lee place it in the constellation Scorpius unless that was some how intentional.) On that note, what would Sagittarius be doing with Apollo’s arrow? Doesn’t he have his own? :P ...Tee Hee! That's what I'd like to know, too. And the following comments by DE from the podcast (thanks, larocque6689 :))
Sagittarian has this prominent arrow and there was this whole mythological story which goes along with his father and why the arrow was bestowed upon him. So it seemed like, well, if the arrow is the thing, then if you put it back in Sagittarius' bow, it is the trigger that gets you to the map of Earth. (DE) The only connection I can see here is that, supposedly, Sagittarius' arrow points to Antares, the heart of Scorpius, and that the center of Milky Way is somewhere in that neighborhood. (I say "supposedly" because any minute now an astromony major is going to come along and correct me. :p)

But what's this "mythological story" of his father and the arrow? There seems to be some confusion as to whom/what Sagittarius was supposed to be. I've heard it was supposed to represent Cheiron, a famous mythical figure sired by Cronus (a Stargate connection?), but then I've also heard Cheiron is actually the constellation Centaurus. :confused:

If Sagittarius = Cheiron, then at least there would be some connection to Apollo; except they were not father-son but cousins of sorts. Cheiro was a great teacher, so Apollo entrusted one of his mortal sons to Cheiro's care (and much petty greek gods' bickering ensued.) That's about all I can come up with. :o


Which is why I’m leaning towards the idea that the Colonials are all decedents from Earth that traveled to Kobol bringing with them their knowledge of the constellations (since the 12 colonies later adopted these constellations and their names from the old home world [Earth] once they splintered off from Kobol. Otherwise how would they know what the constellations looked like and were called if the 13th tribe fleeing Kobol only created them in remembrance of the other 12 tribes.) Some how society evolved into a polytheistic society on Kobol, whatever happened happened causing people to abandon Kobol and some of them returned to Earth leaving behind a vague way of finding them. Which then would put the setting of this show in the very distant future. I wish it was this clear-cut, but they still could be on a parallel course to us. Remember in the time of Plato, the "society" was polytheistic. He was also the one who thought an ideal society should be devided into 12 tribes, with each having their own guardian/patron god etc. So what if the 12 tribes went over to Kobol back then, for whatever reason and via whatever mean? :confused:

Inquiring mind wants to know ...

Pryito
August 30th, 2005, 01:01 AM
Adama Choking Sharon "and you asked why". Gave me chills.

This freaked me out as well, being that when he said it to Sharon in the morgue, she was DEAD!

LordHart
August 30th, 2005, 03:10 AM
A few things about this episode were great. The confrontation between Adama and Boomer was great, and the "and you asked why?" statement to him, with his reaction to it. There is something odd going on there.

But definately, the best part of the episode was Baltars response to Doc Cottles statement about him being crazy, and Baltar pops his head up, looks at him in the red light with his manic wide eyes, and states "i'm not crazy!", looking anything but crazy... brilliant.

FeloniousMonk
August 30th, 2005, 07:36 AM
why do people keep saying "a stargate connection"?

There is no crossover and there never will be one, any name used in BSG that happens to be used for a goauld is there because both shows draw from human mythology. There's no connection between the two shows.

entil2001
August 30th, 2005, 10:43 AM
Before the second season aired, Ron Moore made an interesting comment. Essentially, he commented that the first season should have been 20 episodes (at the very least), and that as a result, the first third of the second season would play out as if it were the rest of the first season. I have to say that I completely agree. As much as the first season finale ended things on a high note, it was really the end of a complication phase of a much larger arc; this season has been all about the resolution of everything that happened in “Kobol’s Last Gleaming”.

A ton of plot threads reach their momentary end in this episode. On the plot side of the fence, there’s the culmination of the search for the Tomb of Athena. I find it interesting that the writers kept all these pieces in the air without really knowing how it would play out, beyond some general sense of direction. For all that doubt regarding how the puzzle would come together, it works very well.

There are issues, of course, and the writers admit it. There’s not one spot on Earth where a person could look up and see all 12 classical Zodiac constellations at the exact same time, at the same basic declination in the sky. But that’s hardly the point. The point is that Earth is the planet where the constellations would, when seen from that point in space, look as they do in the hologram. From that perspective, it works.

I do wonder, however, how this was supposed to make sense. Earth is supposed to be the lost 13th colony. So how would the constellations, as seen from Earth, end up on Kobol? Was Earth once still in contact with the homeworld, before things all fell apart? I can’t remember if that was established in the mini-series or the first season, but it struck me as a possible continuity issue. (I’ll be pleased if someone can correct me if I’m wrong, since I can’t seem to find the information right now.)

It’s incidental, however, because it gives them a general direction, without promising that the journey will be successful. After all, Boomer made it very clear that the Cylons know all about the scriptures and prophecies of the Colonists, perhaps even better than the Colonists do (not hard to imagine). Sounds to me like the Cylons might have taken the search for Earth into account after all.

There’s been plenty of evidence to suggest that the Cylons wanted to keep some small population around, and that they’ve avoided the deathblow that would wipe the Colonists out. Certainly their resources should be big enough by now! So why let the Colonists get this far, beyond the breeding experiments? What if the Cylons are using the Colonists to locate Earth? After all, the Colonists want to end the human race, and Earth would have humans on it (or so one would assume). So wouldn’t the Cylons want to wipe those humans out, too?

Six mentioned to Baltar that he was meant to lead humanity to Earth, but that he would be the last to survive. That would fit into this “Cylons want to wipe out Earth” theory rather well. A lot of what Six does in this episode is about breaking down Baltar’s growing resistance to her influence, ensuring that he can continue to act on their behalf, the ultimate sleeper agent. (It is wrong to think that Tricia actually looks even more attractive in civvies?)

Character is key in storytelling, and as usual, Adama and Roslyn provide some wonderful fireworks in the dramatic arena. They finally come to an understanding, and the human race is all the better for it. The challenge, of course, will be dealing with the rifts within the population that the two of them initially created and fostered. Adama’s emotionalism and Roslyn’s faux-religious stance could very well undermine their authority, once the masses begin to question it.

A lot of agendas are left unspoken and unrevealed. Who knows what Boomer is up to? Would Helo follow her into the fire, if her agenda is still aligned with her people? I like Boomer (and lust for Grace Park), so I hope that she sticks around and turns out to be a human sympathizer. Even so, I loved Adama’s reaction to her presence, and how it’s going to twist the knife in the gut of Galactica’s crew for her to be there. And then there’s Zarek, who seems to be gaining more sympathetic character traits by the minute.

Part of me is worried that a less serialized run of episodes will follow, and that some of the momentum of excellence will be lost in the process. I have faith in the writers, but the weakest episodes of the first season were more self-contained. While some might have found this two-part story to be stretched thin (and it was, according to the producers and writers), I reveled in the chance to see more in-depth character development. Hopefully, with the true beginning of the second season, we’ll see that continue.

FeloniousMonk
August 30th, 2005, 11:06 AM
What if the Cylons are using the Colonists to locate Earth?
What if the Cylons already found it? :eek:

And what if finding Earth is the reason they wiped out the Colonies?

Bl4de
August 30th, 2005, 01:44 PM
I think Billy will be president after Roslin, anyone else thinking the same thing?

Everything else surrounding the religion, Sharon's knowledge "beyond your scriptures" as she put it, etc. are all too confusing to think about.. according to the Cylons they believe the gods that the Colonials worship were probably real people with no extraordinary abilities, or maybe aliens of some sort.. then they believe in their own god which is starting to become more apparent with Number 6 not being some cylon trickery and her knowledge of future events. It's just way too confusing.. I hope they resolve all the questions. It hurts my mind to even think about the whole "it's happened before and will happen again" thing, it reminded me of the Matrix plot and how badly that went downhill.

Oh yeah, I can't wait for some more Viper action, I'm sure Starbuck and Apollo are itching to get in the cockpit. Which makes me think about the lack of attacks.. the cylons used to attack every so and so minutes, now there hasn't been an attack since like what, kobol's last gleaming 2?

Cikak
August 30th, 2005, 02:42 PM
People should really listen to the podcasts, they answer a lot of the questions people have asked here (even if you can't listen to the podcast and watch the episode). The writers don't really have an explanation for how Sharon knew that, but the impression I got from the podcast was she has been completely honest.

Agent_Dark
August 30th, 2005, 06:24 PM
People should really listen to the podcasts, they answer a lot of the questions people have asked here (even if you can't listen to the podcast and watch the episode). The writers don't really have an explanation for how Sharon knew that, but the impression I got from the podcast was she has been completely honest.
See, thats kinda poor story telling - People having to listen to a Podcast to get the full info on whats happening in the story. And just because the writers don't know, doesn't mean that there is no explanation as to why it happened in the BSG universe...

Easter Lily
August 30th, 2005, 06:59 PM
People should really listen to the podcasts, they answer a lot of the questions people have asked here (even if you can't listen to the podcast and watch the episode). The writers don't really have an explanation for how Sharon knew that, but the impression I got from the podcast was she has been completely honest.

Sure they don't know... :rolleyes: Why put it in there then? Call me cynical. but methinks someone's doing a Joe Mallozzi... doing the slight of hand, that is...
I have read it but I understood him to mean that no one at this stage knows... but he is still foreshadowing something.
While CapricaSharon might believe that she's honest, it doesn't mean though that she is completely free of the restraints of cylon programming. And that "and you ask me why...?" doesn't exactly inspire confidence that she's been entirely forthcoming.

Talisman
August 30th, 2005, 08:33 PM
Speaking of finding and locating earth... I think it is fairly certain from what Six says to Baltar that the cylons are using the fleet to find earth and the goal appears to be seeing its destruction also. This makes me wonder if they will actually find earth and ask for sanctuary or find earth and then return to Caprica. So it is possible for them to find earth but never actually go there. If I remember correctly in BSG 1980 when they discover that Earth hasn't evolved and is in no position to defend itself against the Cylons they have two choices, lead the Cylons away from Earth or upgrade Earth's technology and they chose the latter.

Easter Lily
August 30th, 2005, 11:33 PM
If I remember correctly in BSG 1980 when they discover that Earth hasn't evolved and is in no position to defend itself against the Cylons they have two choices, lead the Cylons away from Earth or upgrade Earth's technology and they chose the latter.

Ssssssssshhhhhhh... we mustn't mention that one...

I actually liked it... but I was like 11...
:p

LoneStar1836
August 31st, 2005, 02:13 AM
There are issues, of course, and the writers admit it. There’s not one spot on Earth where a person could look up and see all 12 classical Zodiac constellations at the exact same time, at the same basic declination in the sky. But that’s hardly the point. The point is that Earth is the planet where the constellations would, when seen from that point in space, look as they do in the hologram. From that perspective, it works.And that’s what I took away from it so I didn’t have any problem with the way they presented them. It wasn’t meant to be an exact representation of our night sky at any particular moment. If it were, I guess I’m standing in the wrong spot to see the Lagoon Nebula that close up. :D


I wish it was this clear-cut, but they still could be on a parallel course to us. Remember in the time of Plato, the "society" was polytheistic. He was also the one who thought an ideal society should be devided into 12 tribes, with each having their own guardian/patron god etc. So what if the 12 tribes went over to Kobol back then, for whatever reason and via whatever mean? :confused:It was the GIANT ALIEEENNNNSS. :D

Posting the whole conversation for reference below.
Roslin: Again the ancient symbols. These patterns... were on the original flags of the 12 colonies back in the days when the colonies were called by their ancient names: Aries... Taurus... Gemini... Cancer... Leo... Libra... Virgo.
Adama: The jewels match the constellations.
Apollo: this is the map-- this is the map to Earth.
Adama: Maybe. So is Earth in one of these constellations?
Starbuck: We're standing on it. We're standing on Earth. The scriptures say that when the 13th tribe landed on Earth, they looked up into the heavens and they saw their 12 brothers.
Roslin: Earth is the place where you can look up in the sky and see the constellations of the 12 colonies.
Starbuck: I don't know what good it's gonna do us though. I mean, what are we supposed to do? Search the entire galaxy for one particular star pattern?
Apollo: There. There in Scorpio. I've seen that before. It's the Lagoon nebula.
Adama: Astro body M8.. That's a long way from here.
Apollo: Yeah. But at least now we have a map and a direction.
I tried to think of something simpler to explain the cross-pollination of the constellations than the idea that somehow Earth is the original homeworld after all. What if the 12 tribes on Kobol already had the constellation names and star patterns associated with them so the ones who went to earth picked out some similar star patterns and gave them those names to remember them by. I figured that if you look at the sky long enough you can draw just about any ol’ pattern you want and thus make an existing pattern of stars on some distant planet (such as Kobol) fit a pattern of stars seen from Earth.

I’m guessing that the 13 tribes all had names when they lived on Kobol. I’m basing that on Roslin’s first lines above. The fact that the 12 Colonies once went by “their ancient names” implies to me that they at least already had those tribal names on Kobol and thus possibly already had the different flags associated with them.

But……then the thing with the star patterns being on the flags because they were patterns seen from Kobol is blown out of the water with Starbuck’s statement, “I don't know what good it's gonna do us though. I mean, what are we supposed to do? Search the entire galaxy for one particular star pattern?” If the patterns were originally seen from Kobol, they wouldn’t have to look any farther than out the nearest window of Galactica to see them. But I still think the names of the constellations carried over from Kobol just not the star patterns.

So how in Hades did those freakin’ constellations get on the flags? A) Humans originated on Earth to begin with and brought that knowledge with them when they came to Kobol. B) Once the 13 tribe arrived on earth and had their little commemoration ceremony, someone flew all the way back to Kobol, racking up some serious frequent flyer miles, built the Tomb of Athena and then went around to all the colonies and convinced them to use these nifty star patterns on their colony’s flag. And thus that’s also why the Colonials eventually recorded that action of naming the constellations on earth in the scriptures. Because if someone didn’t physically come back, then my only other explanation is that C) an all-knowing god or gods directed someone to build the Tomb with the map leading to earth and “inspired” someone to record in the scriptures the actions of what the people on earth had done with the whole naming bit as well as get them to adopt those flags. I say someone had to physically come back, if it wasn’t the doing of the god(s), because I don’t think the world of Galactica has sub-space communication abilities, so someone on earth isn’t just going to relay a message back to Kobol, etc. to keep in touch.

Something else……If people fled in the direction of Earth, how the heck did they even know where it was? Who told them? The gods? It’s obviously a much greater distance from Kobol than the 12 Colonies. I’m not just going to embark on some crazy *** journey into deep space unless I know where I’m going. :D It seems the majority consensus was to head towards where the colonies are now so I’m guessing they knew those planets existed.

Ugh. My brain hurts and half of my post makes no sense. :S Forget that supposed toss away line of "and you ask why" by Boomer. That I completely get and can pretty much grasp, but this benign thing with the flags has me puzzled. I just need to stop even thinking about that stuff and just go with the flow of the show and hope the answers to such questions will eventually be known. :D

Pryito
August 31st, 2005, 03:17 AM
People should really listen to the podcasts, they answer a lot of the questions people have asked here (even if you can't listen to the podcast and watch the episode). The writers don't really have an explanation for how Sharon knew that, but the impression I got from the podcast was she has been completely honest.

You need an ipod to listen to the podcast? I do not own one, cant afford one, have no idea how to get the podcast without and ipod. :(

Agent_Dark
August 31st, 2005, 03:34 AM
You need an ipod to listen to the podcast? I do not own one, cant afford one, have no idea how to get the podcast without and ipod. :(
Nah, its a just a simple mp3 file that you download. Windows Media Player will play it fine.

Talisman
August 31st, 2005, 07:40 AM
So how in Hades did those freakin’ constellations get on the flags? A) Humans originated on Earth to begin with and brought that knowledge with them when they came to Kobol.That is the answer that makes the most sense.

I think there were originally 12 tribes which came to Kobol from Earth, they would have brought the star map and zodiac names with them. Then something bad happened and the tribes decided to flee Kobol and create the 12 colonies. Prior to their departure a group made up of people from each of the tribes decided that rather than go and create new homes they were going to return home to Earth and so created the 13th tribe.

FeloniousMonk
August 31st, 2005, 09:38 AM
Another possibility is that Earth had already been explored by the people of Kobol long before the exodus. Think of it this way; life started on Kobol and eventually humans were capable of spaceflight. The first habitable planet they find they named Earth. Over the years exploratory missions were sent back and forth and during that time another 12 planets were found near each other.

Then something happens to make them all get the hell out of Dodge. Before all the tribes split up they agree to leave a marker telling future generations how to get to Earth. From the missions to Earth they saw the constellations and decided to use them to mark the colonies.

Talisman
September 1st, 2005, 01:36 AM
The baby shouldn’t make an appearance until after the presidential election, I’d guess, which is still another 20 plus episodes away if the average 20 episode season covers about 3 months BSG time, so about this time next year they ought to be getting into all the political wrangling of the election since the six months would be up for Roslin’s term. Course if they don’t find some miracle cure for her, she should also be dead/dying about this time next year……which I don’t see happening because her character is so crucial to the show. I could see the writers killing her off before the show ends (which I hope isn’t anytime soon), but wow that would be such a loss. The baby will be making an appearance very soon, around the time of the midseason break I reckon.

In "The Farm" episode, we learned that the Cylons have been unable to get a feutus to survive. Extremely premature babies are known to survive from 18 weeks, the chances of survival aren't great (10-15%) but if the feutus has survived in the womb until 24 weeks the chances of survival are 50%. I'm not sure how long Caprica Sharon is pregnant but she must be coming close to the time when her body rejects the feutus.

Possible plot line: Extremely premature hybrid baby is born by emergency section and the cylons send a few Basestar ships to collect the prize.

LoneStar1836
September 1st, 2005, 11:30 AM
I considered that – her having an extremely premature baby, but I thought maybe the writers would try to drag it out a little longer rather than end the pressing conflict they had with the divided fleet and then jump right into having this physical Cylon baby to deal with. Drag it out a little and build up some tension among people as to what this thing might be once she has it and whether or not it and Sharon should be allowed to live. Speculation for the next episode It looks like someone tries to either kill Sharon or the baby. So it’s possible that that will expedite her having the baby. But I just don’t think we are going to see the baby yet. I’m thinking they are going to hold off a little longer…at least till some time well into the second half of this season. Possibly having this season end with the birth of the baby....but then I'm just guessing.

About the Cylon babies not being able to develop. Supposedly that is what the whole “love” issue is about with her and Helo or that’s what I thought anyway. To me that implied that in Sharon’s case, her chances of producing a baby and having a successful pregnancy are greatly increase with this “love” factor. That’s why all other attempts at breeding were failing.


Possible plot line: Extremely premature hybrid baby is born by emergency section and the cylons send a few Basestar ships to collect the prize.Baltar seems to be so intertwined with this baby…at least according to Six….that I’m thinking the Cylons want this baby, once born, to reside on Galactica. For what reasons, I have no idea.


Another possibility is that Earth had already been explored by the people of Kobol long before the exodus. Think of it this way; life started on Kobol and eventually humans were capable of spaceflight. The first habitable planet they find they named Earth. Over the years exploratory missions were sent back and forth and during that time another 12 planets were found near each other.

Then something happens to make them all get the hell out of Dodge. Before all the tribes split up they agree to leave a marker telling future generations how to get to Earth. From the missions to Earth they saw the constellations and decided to use them to mark the colonies.I like that idea better, at least in a more logical sense. :D

chyron
September 2nd, 2005, 08:38 PM
I was under the impression that they weren't actually transported to earth, that they were still in the tomb but there was some sort of hologram. The door slammed shut to make it nice and dark, and I figure that a giant hologram is a little more logical than some mystical, completely unexplained transportation device.

What bothers me is that they didn't encounter any more Cylon ambushes on the way to the tomb. A couple landmines and 2-3 centurions are all that's guarding the path? And especially after the first fight in part 1, I would think any Cylons in the area would have heard the commotion and come to check on things.
You scheme like a human, not a Cylon. What if the Cylons are using them to find the path to Earth to ensure that the remnants of mankind are wiped from the galaxy?

chyron
September 2nd, 2005, 08:47 PM
What if the Cylons have been playing of the Colonials religion and made the tomb to show then the way to Earth because maybe it's not realy Earth its leading them to but the Cylonh home world or a huge Cylon force to wipe them out.
Why go through all of the effort?

Gargen
September 2nd, 2005, 08:57 PM
Hmm why not just have the huge cylon force on cobol and wipe them out there lol

chyron
September 2nd, 2005, 08:59 PM
This notion of the constellations is something that I came up with. I wanted to connect it to our present day mythology of the zodiac. The show is replete with symbols and references to zodiacal things. Somehow, these names for these Colonies are not random, there is a connection, and here's the connection. That these people of the thirteenth tribe looked up into the sky and made up these constellations and assigned them to their brethren, the lost tribes.
I think that someone else pointed this out, or alluded to it...
There *HAD* to be travel either 1 person or a group between KOBAL, EARTH and the planets of the colonies. How else would the legend of Earth exist in the religion of the colonies? How else would the map exist on KOBAL?
I'm thinking that the 13th colony was the first to leave and then someone (or persons or things) returned to that region of space. He/she/it either returned to Kobal prior to the departure of the other 12 or afterward and figured out where the 12 went to. This of course raised the question as to who buildt the tomb of Athena - complete with the map, and what happened so that there was nothing in the colonies about the location of Earth. Still assuming that someone/thing returned from Earth.

Kazper
September 4th, 2005, 01:04 PM
I wish it was this clear-cut, but they still could be on a parallel course to us. Remember in the time of Plato, the "society" was polytheistic. He was also the one who thought an ideal society should be devided into 12 tribes, with each having their own guardian/patron god etc. So what if the 12 tribes went over to Kobol back then, for whatever reason and via whatever mean? :confused:

Inquiring mind wants to know ...

Ohhh - the Atlanteans went to Kobol :D :D :D :D

Anyway the only reasonable explanation for the constellations on the colony flags are that Earth was the original planet from whence the "12 tribes" went to Kobol and then later went on from there. That would also explain the (presumably) divergent religious beliefs and differing tech levels between Earth and the 12 colonies (if we assume this is more or less present time for Earth, which it might not be, but would make for the best drama IMHO).

Oh and I'd really be surprised if Baltar is a Cylon. As someone else said he is all too human in his shortcomings and his failings. There is not one even semi-solid reason to think he's a cylon. Each and every action of his is fully explainable as both insanity and/or actually being seduced by Six. I'm pretty sure that's the real delicate balance the writers want to keep - is he really talking to Six or is he just completely insane. Not "is he a Cylon or not" - that would just be too simplistic for this show.

chyron
September 4th, 2005, 02:01 PM
Oh and I'd really be surprised if Baltar is a Cylon. As someone else said he is all too human in his shortcomings and his failings. There is not one even semi-solid reason to think he's a cylon. Each and every action of his is fully explainable as both insanity and/or actually being seduced by Six.
Unless he's a cylon running Windows and MS family of products...

Talisman
September 5th, 2005, 03:11 AM
Dialogue from Home Part 1:

Priestess: "And the blaze pursued them and the people of Kobol had a choice: To board the great ship or take the high road through the rocky ridge..."
Sharon: "And the body of each tribe's leader was offered to the gods in the tomb of Athena."
Priestess: "Yes. Precisely."
Sharon: "And the great ship was the galleon that departed from here where we're standing. And it took the founders of the 13 colonies to their destiny. And those that didn't board the galleon took the high road, the rocky ridge that led to the tomb."Is Kobol or Earth the 13th colony?

Dialogue from Flesh and Bone:

Cylon to Starbuck: You're going to find Kobol, the birth place of us all.

Blue Banrigh
September 5th, 2005, 05:55 AM
Dialogue from Home Part 1:
Is Kobol or Earth the 13th colony?

Dialogue from Flesh and Bone:
Earth is the 13th colony. For some strange reason we decided to go in the opposite direction.

grover
September 5th, 2005, 08:01 PM
It's taken me three days to get an account activated so I could say this...

Home Pt.2 SUCKED!

I know some criticisms have been discussed already, but I've been itching to throw in my 2 cents. There should have been another Cylon attack. I know, I know, there was one but it ended up on the cutting room floor. Well, forgive me, but if it doesn't make it to the airwaves it doesn't count! After all that talk about the "price in blood" and the Cylons knowing about the tomb there should have been one more ambush!

I can almost hear it now... "Ahhh, Grover, dear purple newbie friend, it's more meaningful that the expedition turned on itself and shed its own blood."

I disagree. The whole double cross ambush at the tomb was STUPID! I forget the character's name, but the guy who planned the whole set-up was carrying a 4-shot pistol. Let's think this through. Sharon shoots Adama and he shoots Apollo. He has to figure on shooting more people at this point! Starbuck's goin' to draw if you gun down her father figure and her love interest, so you've got to pop her. The chief is standing there with an assault rifle so he's got to go too. He wants to shoot Sharon as well, but killing her means taking out Helo as well. Zarek's stepped away from the plan and he's got a Cylon and a redshirt as his back-up. And at no point do we ever see him talking to the redshirt to let him know that the plan is going down! So, we've got 5 armed targets and only 4 bullets in the gun. And then he still has to off Billy and Rosalyn... and probably the redshirt too because that guy has GOT to die. C'mon, you can't break sci fi tradition!

At first I thought they were going to make the character a Cylon, because I thought it would be cool if the principle advisor to Rosalyn's chief politcal rival was a toaster, but there was no way a Cylon would be stupid enough to try this hit! The whole assassination plan became a plot device for Sharon to earn Adama's trust. Which was pretty much unnecessary because Sharon had earned her life by convincing Rosalyn, Lee and Kara.

The whole episode wasn't a loss, because anytime you have Olmos on screen and conscious you're going to see some good stuff. But after everything that was developed in Part 1, the ending was a huge let down.

And don't get me started about the final scene in the hanger! I liked it better the first time I saw it in the mini-series!

Blue Banrigh
September 5th, 2005, 10:47 PM
I was suprised that Roslin saw Billy as presidential material, that came out of the blue. I don't remember seeing her make mention of it before. I knew he was dear, I didn't think she was grooming him to succeed her. I thought she might have had Apollo in mind for the job.

LoneStar1836
September 6th, 2005, 12:31 AM
The whole assassination plan became a plot device for Sharon to earn Adama's trust. Which was pretty much unnecessary because Sharon had earned her life by convincing Rosalyn, Lee and Kara.I’m not too sure. I still think Roslin would be willing to space her if push came to shove. She was only using Sharon to find the tomb. After that I think Roslin considered her useless and a threat so if Adama didn’t want her taken back to the fleet, I’m not too sure Roslin would put up much of a fight and insist on bringing her back. Lee would most definitely take her out if he could. Kara’s kind of a fence sitter as far as Sharon goes. I don’t think she cares one way or the other and is too conflicted to make a choice. Notice how she turned her back when Adama tried to kill Sharon. Yeah, at times she sticks up for her but only because she seems to have sympathy for Helo not because she cares for Sharon. Or that’s how I see it.

Adama needed convincing because he is the man with the guns after all. So if he didn’t want her on Galactica, then she wasn’t coming back with them. So Sharon’s attempt to win some trust wasn’t pointless, imo, cause she needed to give him a reason to somewhat believe what she was saying or at least a reason to not kill her or leave her on Kobol. The guy had just tried to kill her and probably would have…. Holding a gun on him and then not shooting has to say something or at least plant a seed of doubt as to what this thing’s intentions are.

Yeah I don’t see how Meier’s plan was actually going to work. I was actually kind of confused on that. How was he supposed to justify shooting Lee? :S And not get shot himself…. Whatever. I just kind of wrote that off since it never came to be.


Welcome to the board btw. :) Hope you stick around.


I was suprised that Roslin saw Billy as presidential material, that came out of the blue.At first I just though Adama was feeding him a line of BS just to make him feel better. :D

chyron
September 6th, 2005, 03:10 AM
Earth is the 13th colony. For some strange reason we decided to go in the opposite direction.
Notice that you haven't seen or heard any reference to STARBUCKS in the 12 colonies....Now on Earth, that of course is not the case...

grover
September 6th, 2005, 04:11 AM
Here's why I think Sharon didn't need to win over Adama to stay alive: Information. She's got it and Rosalyn and Co. need it. She's shown repeatedly that she knows more about what the humans are trying to accomplish than they do. If nothing else there are still 8 cylons roaming about in the fleet and she could point them out.

I disagree with you regarding Adama vs the Prez (gotta check the spelling of her name!) Adama was the one in the weaker position, he was reaching out to Roz in an attempt to unite the fleet. If she wanted Sharon alive than Adama wasn't going to say no. Lee would follow his father's lead, but after being faced down in Part 1 I don't think he was as anxious to expose her innards to direct light. He's joined Kara on the fence... and not just because he likes the company.

Yes, I'm a shipper at heart.

grover
September 6th, 2005, 04:11 AM
Know what? I refused to consider that Kara might be a cylon until that Starbucks comment.

LoneStar1836
September 6th, 2005, 10:07 AM
Here's why I think Sharon didn't need to win over Adama to stay alive: Information. She's got it and Rosalyn and Co. need it. She's shown repeatedly that she knows more about what the humans are trying to accomplish than they do. If nothing else there are still 8 cylons roaming about in the fleet and she could point them out.I agree about that. That’s why I’d keep her around, at least temporarily, but based on Roslin’s previous history with Leoben, I still don’t think she believes that anything they say can be trusted with certainty. That’s why she was none too hesitant to space her in Home Pt I. “We don’t keep Cylons around here.” Though I guess if she believes that she can continue to hold the life of Helo and the baby over Boomer’s head, she might could get some intel from her.

I disagree with you regarding Adama vs the Prez (gotta check the spelling of her name!) Adama was the one in the weaker position, he was reaching out to Roz in an attempt to unite the fleet. If she wanted Sharon alive than Adama wasn't going to say no.Oh I think he’d say no, even if she asked or even ordered him to. I doubt Roslin would have made that a sticking point for reuniting the fleet though. She doesn’t trust Boomer any farther than she can throw her, and I doubt her helping them find the tomb changed that much. Roslin’s key goal was to find the tomb by any means necessary, and if that meant getting help from a Cylon, so be it. But now the president’s crusade from the past several episodes has been accomplished. If she had wanted other info from her (like the identity of other Cylons), I don’t think she would have been so quick to order her out an airlock in the first place. Course that’s just my opinion. :)

Lee would follow his father's lead, but after being faced down in Part 1 I don't think he was as anxious to expose her innards to direct light. He's joined Kara on the fence... and not just because he likes the company.Forgot about that. Yeah, that would make Lee a fence sitter as well, but if his father wanted her gone, he’d back him and he did. So if pulling a gun on Lee had a desired affect then it’s somewhat safe to reason that doing the same to Adama would kind of accomplish the same thing.

No one is ever going to ask Boomer directly who the other Cylon’s within the fleet are. If they do, she’ll just lie and say she doesn’t know cause Moore’s not going to make it that easy in fingering the other Cylons. :D

grover
September 6th, 2005, 10:45 AM
Couple things.

First, are you sure about the spelling of "Roslin?"

Second, we'll just have to disagree on the Prez vs Commander issue. Sharon's on board Galactica and now it's Baltar's turn to play Godfather.

Blue Banrigh
September 6th, 2005, 10:51 AM
Couple things.

First, are you sure about the spelling of "Roslin?"

Second, we'll just have to disagree on the Prez vs Commander issue. Sharon's on board Galactica and now it's Baltar's turn to play Godfather.
Yep, it's spelt Roslin.

It's an interesting discussion on who gets to control the fate of this Sharon. I'd have to go with ... actually I have no idea. Are they still keeping the military seperate from the police? If Roslin arrested her it would go to say she'd be sent to the Astral Queen, however since she is on the Galactica, I'd say Adama is the one that decides.

grover
September 6th, 2005, 11:37 AM
Thanks for the spellcheck.

Sharon's on Galactica because that's where the specially designed Cylon cell is. I don't think it had anything to do with who made the decision.

It's also easier for future plot development. Sharon and the baby have to be on the same ship for Balter to work his machinations. Who wants to see a scene where Baltar jumps on a shuttle in every episode to go see Sharon? Why saddle the writers with that responsibilty?

ForCryinOutLoud
September 6th, 2005, 01:06 PM
Oh and I'd really be surprised if Baltar is a Cylon. As someone else said he is all too human in his shortcomings and his failings. There is not one even semi-solid reason to think he's a cylon. Each and every action of his is fully explainable as both insanity and/or actually being seduced by Six. I'm pretty sure that's the real delicate balance the writers want to keep - is he really talking to Six or is he just completely insane. Not "is he a Cylon or not" - that would just be too simplistic for this show.

The one thing I can't get beyong is that he survived an atomic blast in the mini that apparently killed Six just by ducking in front of her. Next time we see him, he's running across a field.

I don't say he IS a Cylon, but I would not be the least surprised if he is. And I bet "God" is actually a human Baltar, or a Cylon Baltar with his consciousness.

Liebestraume
September 6th, 2005, 08:50 PM
why do people keep saying "a stargate connection"?Perhaps because this is a Stargate board, and some of us actually consider tongue-in-cheek pretty harmless? :cool:


Notice how [Kara] turned her back when Adama tried to kill Sharon. Yeah, at times she sticks up for her but only because she seems to have sympathy for Helo not because she cares for Sharon. I think Kara's attitude towards Sharon is quite intriguing. Turning her back on Adama & Sharon seems to indicate she neither wanted to be a diretc participant in Sharon's execution nor intended to stick up for her. Yet notice how quickly Kara produced the arrow when Roslin was contemplating Sharon's claim of knowing the way. I think deep down Kara is quite conflicted (but then I might be over-analyzing again :p).


No one is ever going to ask Boomer directly who the other Cylon’s within the fleet are. It sure looks that way, but what I don't understand is why not. Even if she lies, I doubt she'll lie completely (because that'd just be stupid). So, to the extent any of her claims could be verifies/repudiated is still valiable intel.


Here's why I think Sharon didn't need to win over Adama to stay alive: Information. ... I agree with you that information may ultimately be what will keep her alive (at least for a while), but I do think Adama was the one she most needed to persuade at that time. After Sharon proved her use to Roslin, no one was anxious to excute her on-spot. The only possible exception was Adama, but his reaction was mostly emotional. All Sharon had to do was introduce some doubt to his mind to buy herself some time, and this she did. Whether it was for some nefarious cylon programming or out of survival instinct is anybody's guess.


And don't get me started about the final scene in the hanger! I liked it better the first time I saw it in the mini-series!I liked this episode, but I share your dislike of the finale scene (that is, if you were referring to the slow-clapping). I suppose there was a dramatic purpose for that, but too much hugging and clapping in a single episode makes me squirm in my seat :p. Which kind of sucketh, because I LOVED the reunion scenes between Adama, Lee, and Kara.

grover
September 6th, 2005, 09:36 PM
Gonna have to figure out the shiney on this forum...

I agree with you that information may ultimately be what will keep her alive (at least for a while), but I do think Adama was the one she most needed to persuade at that time....All Sharon had to do was introduce some doubt to his mind to buy herself some time, and this she did. (Liebestraum)

I agree with this in principle, I'm just saying the execution was lousy. Meier's 4 Bullets for 5 Targets assassination attempt could only be a plot device to get Adama to trust Sharon. It was a cheap cop-out and I expected better.

And I was referring to Adama's (once-more-with-feeling!) clap after introducing Roslin to the crew. Been there, done that and couldn't we at least spring for a new set?

Totally random thought:

The scrolls of Pithia tell of a lower demon who helps mankind, and the natural assumption is Sharon 2 is that figure. Maybe not. I think it was "The Farm" but Sharon talked about how the Cylons hadn't been able to produce an off-spring using human DNA. What if Sharon came over to the human side so she could get a human doctor to help her keep the baby? What if she's using Helo and everyone else until her daughter is born and then she can turn the tables. The real cylon help may come later.

LoneStar1836
September 6th, 2005, 11:43 PM
Second, we'll just have to disagree on the Prez vs Commander issue.No problem. :) I like a good discussion. It gets rather boring if we just all agree on everything. ;)


I think Kara's attitude towards Sharon is quite intriguing. Turning her back on Adama & Sharon seems to indicate she neither wanted to be a diretc participant in Sharon's execution nor intended to stick up for her. Yet notice how quickly Kara produced the arrow when Roslin was contemplating Sharon's claim of knowing the way. I think deep down Kara is quite conflicted (but then I might be over-analyzing again :P).I think Kara is quite conflicted. She served two year with Boomer on Galactica or I’m guessing Kara’s been on Galactica for 2 years cause we know Boomer was. So this was her friend or Kara thought she was. I’m not sure how I would react to having a friend turn out to be a killer machine. :S In “Flesh and Bone” she prayed for the gods to protect some Cylon’s soul if he indeed had one, a Cylon whose model had tried to kill Adama and then threaten the fleet with a bomb. She tortured this “person” and then had a bit of remorse for him being killed and she had never met him till that day. If she was conflicted about killing him, I’d only imagine she’d be even more conflicted about Sharon.


I liked this episode, but I share your dislike of the finale scene (that is, if you were referring to the slow-clapping). I suppose there was a dramatic purpose for that, but too much hugging and clapping in a single episode makes me squirm in my seat :P.That sounds like some posters over at TWoP. :P They hated the clapping in this episode. Course it’s kind of a running joke over there about how clap-happy the people on Galactica are and that they clap and cheer for just about any ol’ thing. :D

Personally I didn’t mind it. Adama was trying to make a point, and I think he made it. No matter how cheesy the clapping was. :P:D

Blue Banrigh
September 7th, 2005, 12:31 AM
I liked this episode, but I share your dislike of the finale scene (that is, if you were referring to the slow-clapping). I suppose there was a dramatic purpose for that, but too much hugging and clapping in a single episode makes me squirm in my seat :p. Which kind of sucketh, because I LOVED the reunion scenes between Adama, Lee, and Kara.
The reunion scenes between Adama, Lee and Kara were among my favourites. The music was great, especially for Kara's bit.

Was anybody else thinking Stongehenge when the lights turned on in the tomb? Though the stones looked a bit too large and were missing the stones across the top.

Liebestraume
September 7th, 2005, 10:42 PM
...Course it’s kind of a running joke over there about how clap-happy the people on Galactica are and that they clap and cheer for just about any ol’ thing. :DHee! I can see where that comes from, but honestly the clapping never bothered me at all before. There have been a lot of emotional moments in this episode, so this bit at the end just feels a little "piled on" (and hence lessened the emotional impact of those aforementioned moments) for me.

But, like I said before, this is just a tiny nit-pick. I am sure I'll get over it soon enough, so long as they don't clap in the next episode or two. :p


Was anybody else thinking Stongehenge when the lights turned on in the tomb? Though the stones looked a bit too large and were missing the stones across the top.I did, too, at first. Then I noticed the horizontal "ledges" were missing ... ;)

Matt G
February 21st, 2006, 04:11 PM
Hmmmm...

1. OK...hell knows what Baltar is he's been playing his own game for a while anyway.

2. Sharon 2 I'm willing to trust for the time being.

3. I'm running on the assumption that the hologram shut down.

Trek_Girl42
March 3rd, 2006, 06:20 PM
That hologram was so beautiful, it reminded me of Stonehenge as well. Altogether a really good episode although there could have been a transition scene between the hologram and back on board Galactica. Can't wait for Final Cut tomorrow.

MB.Eddie
November 9th, 2006, 09:08 AM
Baltar having the Brain scan was very funny. I thought Number 6 might have been real in some form, but the lack of a chip seems to destroy that theory...
Loved the scene where they all met up on the planet. Good moment + music.

Them finding the way to Earth was really cool too. Good history and stuff involved by the writers too.

jadeloves_ADAMA_ROSLIN
March 17th, 2007, 01:09 PM
i love the discussions and interactions between laura and bill in this episode.


BRILLIANT!

Professor_S
June 5th, 2011, 05:00 PM
Love the opening scene. The back and forth between the search on Kobol and the meeting in Adama's office. I love that Adama is so resolute about reuniting with Roslin. I guess I should be honest from the get-go, though: I'm such an A/R shipper, so that probably (definitely...) colours my impression of this episode. [/disclaimer] :P

First, any scene with Cottle is a good scene. :D Cottle is so awesome!! "One on every bloody ship" lol

The reunion scene on Kobol was so lovely. (Also, I feel it necessary to point out that Adama looks bad*** with an assault rifle :cool:)

:D Roslin and Adama's conversation under the tarp. Not being the shipper thread, however, I shall contain myself. :P Still, it was moving to see their reconciliation. And also, it's always a joy to watch EJO and MM in a scene - they're just so dang good at what they do!

I'm a mythology buff, so I actually really enjoyed the scene with the constellations. I thought it was fascinating.

The reinstatement scene - reminiscent of the mini. I loved it! BSG doesn't do it often, but when they do happy endings, they do them well.

Despite, it seems, the resounding sentiment, I thought this episode was excellent. It sets up a lot for the long-term story and has some lovely character moments for Adama and Roslin.