Vacuum vs Zero Point Energy

[thor's first prime]

Does anyone know how these energy source work and which one is more realistic and which one has the greater potential in energy source?

[_Owen_]

Supposedly within the Stargate universe they are the same, as in "Trinity" the scientists use the two terms interchangeably.

Owen Macri

[vonbismarck]

From what I have read, there have been confirmed through experiments that vacuum fluctuations are real. This is when particles and anti-particles form out of nothing near the event horizon of black hole. Normally this would cancel each other out but sometimes one of them will be pulled into the black hole before that can happen. When this does happen, the one that is left leaves with energy (mass) of the black hole.

Hope this helps.

[Lord §okar]

That is the process of Hawking radiation, not zero-point energy, though they are related. Vacuum energy and zero-point energy are synonymous terms.

[vonbismarck]

Yes I know that that is Stpehen Hawking radation but I believe it is a way that power might be drawn from a vacuum.

Do you agree that it could be a way for power to be drawn from a vacuum?

[lethalfang]

From what I have read, there have been confirmed through experiments that vacuum fluctuations are real. This is when particles and anti-particles form out of nothing near the event horizon of black hole. Normally this would cancel each other out but sometimes one of them will be pulled into the black hole before that can happen. When this does happen, the one that is left leaves with energy (mass) of the black hole.

Hope this helps.

The reason particles and anti-particles appear is because a local high "concentration" of energy in the field, enough energy to convert to mass. They quickly annilate each other and convert back to energy. The energy is there in the first place.
In terms of real science, neither zero point energy nor vacuum has any potential to do work, the laws of thermodynamics.

[cozzerob]

the best analogy i can think of at the mo is if you imagine a buoy on the sea's surface. the waves that hit into it, making it move up and down are electromagnetic waves, which transfer energy to the buoy. the water in the sea is the zero point energy. Although it looks like there is a phenonenally huge amount present, there would appear to be no practical way to get at it (at least not at the moment), just like the buoy can't get any energy from the water itself. Only the waves which carry energy throught the medium of water.

in hawking radiation, as far as i understand, the energy you get is removed matter from the black hole. Hawking radiation causes a black hole to shrink. the energy is coming from the black hole, not vacuum.

and vacuum energy is the less scientific name for zero point energy, but both are used interchangably.

[vonbismarck]

I know the energy is coming from the black hole. I just thought that it might be called vacuum energy since the name for how the particles/anti particles are formed that cases the energy to be released is called vacuum fluctuations.

[beale947]

I know the energy is coming from the black hole. I just thought that it might be called vacuum energy since the name for how the particles/anti particles are formed that cases the energy to be released is called vacuum fluctuations.

Attually Z.P.M's get there energy from subspace, not black holes. Sam says this when she firsst analyses them, and talks to Gen. O'neill.

[beale947]

And the reason why, they are called Z.P.M's is because when weir travels back in time, she talks to janus, and he asks her what they call them, and she says zero point modules. And Zero point energy I believe, is gathered from the 'zero point' which is the point where normal space and subspace meet.

[Auralis]

No, Zero Point means the point of the lowest possible energie level anything can have in our known universe, hench, zero point.

However, due to quantum mechanics, energie level still fluctate at that point, particales are created and destroyed nearly instanous.
The major difficulty in utilising that is that it is still the lowest energie level possible, no matter how much power is actually present in it.
Which is very nicely and correctly used as plotdevice in SGA Trinity.

Now, a ZP module works because it can extract power from those quantum fluctuations because they are accessed from outside the artificialy created space/time continua inside the ZPM. Since that "poket" dimension inside the ZPM is limited and space, it will slowly drain the ZPM module till it reaches maximal entropy and not longer hold any energie potential at all.

Now what would make agood energie source, is when you are able to tap into a different realm of our own universe with less entroy then ours, say hyperspace, subspace, what ever. Then one would be able to create a basicaly endless power supply, well as long as the entropy in that other realm is less then ours. Also energie would flow by itself from there to us once the barries are breached, which in return is probably the main difficulty in creating such powersource savely.

[lethalfang]

Now what would make agood energie source, is when you are able to tap into a different realm of our own universe with less entroy then ours, say hyperspace, subspace, what ever. Then one would be able to create a basicaly endless power supply, well as long as the entropy in that other realm is less then ours. Also energie would flow by itself from there to us once the barries are breached, which in return is probably the main difficulty in creating such powersource savely.

That's a clever way to make this thing work, but I'd like to point out that this scheme would not create an endless power source.
This is akin to have two closed containers of gas with two different pressures: the one with lower pressure represent our universe and the one with higher pressure represent the other universe. Both containers are at equilibrium and both are at maximum entropy and thus no work can be done inside (altho ours universe doesn't have to be). However, when you connect the two containers together, all of the sudden there will be a flux of pressure between the two previously closed containers, and all of the sudden the overall system is no longer at equilibrium nor at maximum entropy.
In your scenario, the closed and limited space which the ZPM locks into is at the lowest possible energy and maximum entropy. However, when it is connected to our universe, it actually has a higher energy than its surrounding and there will be a movement of energy which can be extracted.

[_Owen_]

That is the process of Hawking radiation, not zero-point energy, though they are related. Vacuum energy and zero-point energy are synonymous terms.

Ok, I thought so, thank you.

Owen Macri

[smartquin]

Ok, this is my theory for a Zero Point extraction: Exlpoitation of the Casimir Effect. In 1948 Dutch physicist Hendrik B. G. Casimir of Philips Research Labs predicted that two uncharged parallel metal plates will be subject to a force pressing them together. This force is only measurable when the distance between the two plates is extremely small, on the order of several atomic diameters. The Casimir effect is caused by the fact that space is filled with vacuum fluctuations, virtual particle-antiparticle pairs that continually form out of nothing and then vanish back into nothing an instant later. The gap between the two plates restricts the range of wavelengths possible for these virtual particles, and so fewer of them are present within this space. As a result, there is a lower energy density between the two plates than in open space; in essence, there are less virtual particles between the two plates then on the other side of them.

So we have to figure out some way of splitting these anti-particle pairs apart before they get to each other. Electromagnetic containment vessels can store the anti-particles with out exposing them to normal matter, and then you have a source of anti-mater fuel... however, the particles are very short lived, so unless we can discover a stable anti-particle, this is gona have to remain a dream

[Wandering Tamer]

maybe this thread will help some. http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=16869