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GateWorld
April 27th, 2004, 10:01 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s4/405.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/graphics/405.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#666666">DISCUSS ...</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4 COLOR="#0066BF"><B>DIVIDE AND CONQUER</B></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 405</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
When a member of the S.G.C. tries to kill a Tok'ra, it is revealed that O'Neill and Carter may be victims of an untraceable form of Goa'uld mind control.

<B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s4/405.shtml">Visit the Episode Guide >></A></B></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

SeaBee
June 12th, 2004, 02:47 AM
Not the best ep. of the season.

A little too shippy for me, and they killed my favourite Tok'ra! :(

omnian
June 12th, 2004, 02:57 AM
Martouf's death was pretty dramatic in this one! I mean, he got pumped full of bullets and there was blood all over him! Guess he wanted to go out with a sort of bang......
Alas, another Tok'ra gone.

Tis a shame how we never get to see the President of that time though. I was looking forward to it....finally seeing the big man himself.

greytop
July 3rd, 2004, 10:48 AM
I am wondering how Martouf was mind-control and if Lantesh knew about it or not? If he didn't, why didn't he?

Shipperahoy
July 3rd, 2004, 11:28 AM
I love this episode. Window of Opportunity was the first Stargate episode I saw (which probably explains why I'm a shipper) so I was loving it when I saw this episode. Although I was really upset over Martouf which is the only reason that this isn't my absolute favorite episode.

Selmak
July 10th, 2004, 08:10 PM
The idea of Zatacs are cool... we need to see more of them.

Selmak
July 15th, 2004, 06:45 PM
awww... Jack and Sam

Danny-boy
July 18th, 2004, 11:22 AM
I know, I thought this episode was so cool!!!!

Because Jack and Sam finally have to admit that their relationship is a little deeper.
It was sooo sad when Martouf died though.

KorbenDirewolf
July 30th, 2004, 06:55 AM
I am wondering how Martouf was mind-control and if Lantesh knew about it or not? If he didn't, why didn't he?

Maybe the zatarc technique works on symbiote as well as host?

VirtualCLD
July 30th, 2004, 07:00 AM
POSSIBLE SPOILERS






What happened to Freya after this ep?

TameFarrar
July 30th, 2004, 08:15 AM
POSSIBLE SPOILERS






What happened to Freya after this ep?
I have heard rumors that there was a bad fan reaction to the character and thus she wasn't used again. I stress the rumor part. But I also was told that the actress stated in an interview that the fan reaction was negative to her in fan mail as well. doesn't say a whole lot for the fans huh?

Tame

MasterPower
August 7th, 2004, 04:36 PM
This episode was pretty terrible.
The plot was stupid and I really didn't like it.

Sicarius
August 9th, 2004, 03:58 AM
But I also was told that the actress stated in an interview that the fan reaction was negative to her in fan mail as well. doesn't say a whole lot for the fans huh?

Well, I didn't send any mail to anyone, but most of the reason I didn't care for her was because she was walking around half naked the whole episode.

Anubis
August 9th, 2004, 04:05 AM
Well, I didn't send any mail to anyone, but most of the reason I didn't care for her was because she was walking around half naked the whole episode.


Yeah, I agree about that part, it did seem that way.

Crazedwraith
August 9th, 2004, 08:55 AM
Well, I didn't send any mail to anyone, but most of the reason I didn't care for her was because she was walking around half naked the whole episode.
Thats a complaint?!? :eek:

Basically that's what Anise's purpose was: to attract useless testoserone driven teengae males to watch SG-1 for "teh b00iess!!!111oneone." Baiscally she was the SG equilivlent of 7o'9.

EDIT: For spelling, grammer and the like I grouch at other people for messing up.

Anubis
August 9th, 2004, 10:35 AM
Thats a complaint?!? :eek:

Basically thats Was Anise's purpose Attract useless testoserone driven teengae males to watch SG-1 for "teh b00iess!!!111oneone" haiscally she was the SG equilivlent of 7o'9.



I'm certainly not complaining about that, but it didn't grab my attention after the first time I watched it.

zats
August 23rd, 2004, 04:05 PM
The idea of Zatacs are cool... we need to see more of them.

Perferrably with a loaded P-90 and a few miles away. But yes, they'd be neat to bring back.

Wyrminarrd
August 31st, 2004, 03:44 PM
This was a good episode even if not the best that they´ve done.

And the chick can´t be compared with 7of9 cause if so then she´d have to become part of the main cast.

Ananias
October 9th, 2004, 09:28 PM
And the chick can´t be compared with 7of9 cause if so then she´d have to become part of the main cast.

Well, Peter DeLuise has clearly said she was brought on as SG-1's answer to 7of9. Its too bad they just let her drop. Not that I'd liked her, but if they weren't going to use her again anyway, I would've much rather have had her die instead of Martuf.

Mr Prophet
October 10th, 2004, 01:15 AM
Well, Peter DeLuise has clearly said she was brought on as SG-1's answer to 7of9. Its too bad they just let her drop. Not that I'd liked her, but if they weren't going to use her again anyway, I would've much rather have had her die instead of Martuf.

But if you're going to kill someone off then the audience have to care. If Freya-Anise had failed to spark with the viewers - as she did, possibly by being the only person in TV history with worse outfits than Teri Hatcher - then no-one was going to be: Oh my God! You killed Freya!

Cpn. Chris(tine) Bowman
October 21st, 2004, 06:43 PM
Thats a complaint?!? :eek:

Basically that's what Anise's purpose was: to attract useless testoserone driven teengae males to watch SG-1 for "teh b00iess!!!111oneone." Baiscally she was the SG equilivlent of 7o'9.


Yeah, that's what the writers said in one of the interviews. I actually like the character though she was pretty flat (personality wise that is :o ) I hope they bring her back but better developped. If the Goa'uld have their scientists (brilliant Nirrti :) ) then the Tok'ra should too.

I didn't much care for Freya. I liked Anise though.

Other than that, the concept of Za'tarcs is great, I hope we get more of those. Right when you don't expect it, pow! Hailly jumps on Sam and tries to choke the life out of her :D Although, that might not be her Za'tarc programming at all...

Hmm...Shippiness...not enough fluff though (is there such thing as too much Sam/Jack fluff?)

I miss Martouf... Though the scene with Sam cradling his head as she cried was sweet.

Daniel's Sister
October 29th, 2004, 03:53 PM
I realy like this episode. I shows you how much Jack and Sam care for each other. ;)

Jane
November 6th, 2004, 06:36 AM
This is going to sound so random, but I just hate anise. :mad:, she should get some fashion sense lol.

hidden_envy
November 7th, 2004, 10:44 AM
i still havent seen this episode and i really wanna see it! :(

Edea Baldwin
November 29th, 2004, 06:36 PM
i still havent seen this episode and i really wanna see it! :(


Hidden Envy, your life will never be really complete until you have seen this episode.

Mr Prophet
November 30th, 2004, 07:52 AM
I realy like this episode. I shows you how much Jack and Sam care for each other. ;)

Yes. And also that however much they care, they don't care like that. I love this episode because it was the episode that killed the ship. Sadly, the ship came back, but we could dream.

greytop
November 30th, 2004, 08:19 AM
Wasn't this the first episode that the lie detector (forgot what is called) is first used?

Mr Prophet
November 30th, 2004, 08:35 AM
Wasn't this the first episode that the lie detector (forgot what is called) is first used?

Well, I think there might have been a polygraph in 1969, but this was indeed the first appearance of the Zatarc detector; a handy piece of kit which doubles as a long-range sensor/transmitter (see Last Stand).

Madeleine
November 30th, 2004, 01:22 PM
I'm sure the Zatarc detector was used in many fanfics prior to D&C. Different name, perhaps ;)

LMichelle
November 30th, 2004, 01:28 PM
I miss Freya/Anise. :( If I could look like that, sign me up to be Tok'raed. However, what was up with that outfit? :eek: It almost made me want to laugh each time she was on the screen. Of course, they always have attractive women scnatilly clad in sci-fi, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. :rolleyes:

I liked her kissing Jack and telling him that her symbiote liked Daniel, but the symbiote would have to suffer. LOL! Hmmm. . . Jack or Daniel? I'd choose Daniel. However, it's got to be hard for the Tok'ra to date. :eek:

jckfan55
November 30th, 2004, 03:40 PM
What was Jack's line (when they were going to sedate him)about having done the "drugged out strapped to the bed thing." (or something like that) Was that something we are supposed to know about or just guess at?

zats
January 2nd, 2005, 11:21 AM
I think it was Mr. Prophet who said this was "the death of ship". Someone please pretend that I'm incredibly dense (actually, you won't have to pretend) and PLEASE explain to me how this killed ship. I thought this was the start of ship! If this wasn't, what was?

Mr Prophet
January 2nd, 2005, 11:30 AM
I think it was Mr. Prophet who said this was "the death of ship". Someone please pretend that I'm incredibly dense (actually, you won't have to pretend) and PLEASE explain to me how this killed ship. I thought this was the start of ship! If this wasn't, what was?
Jack admits to caring about Sam. Sam must have some kind of reciprocity that she was denying to set off the detector, but she says: "None of this has to leave the room."

What does this mean? It means that she has chosen the job; that while she may care for Jack or be attracted to him sometimes, it's no big thing. That's how the ship - as far as specific writing goes - should have died.

Where did it start? Who can say with ship? Probably back in the Broca Divide with the tank top and the wrassling.

zats
January 2nd, 2005, 11:34 AM
I don't know. Caring doesn't have an on/off switch.

And thinking back, I'd've thought that ship started sometime second season. The deal with the Broca virus was just physical. That's not love/emotion--it's animal.

Mr Prophet
January 2nd, 2005, 11:59 AM
I don't know. Caring doesn't have an on/off switch.
Never said it did; I just don't think that caring necessarily means hopping into bed, getting married or both. I think that Jack and Sam both care a lot about Daniel; I don't think either of them wants to sleep with him (although I am aware that there are those who will argue both cases).

zats
January 2nd, 2005, 12:27 PM
Yeah, yeah, yeah...okay, I see your point. But still...I don't see how something could just "stay in the room" and be over and done with.

Mr Prophet
January 2nd, 2005, 12:49 PM
Yeah, yeah, yeah...okay, I see your point. But still...I don't see how something could just "stay in the room" and be over and done with.
It can't; so all it can mean is that there was never anything so much to start with, see? That's why I say it killed the ship.

zats
January 2nd, 2005, 01:06 PM
They said that it was "staying in the room". Doesn't mean it did, and it doesn't mean that they stopped caring.

Mr Prophet
January 2nd, 2005, 01:14 PM
They said that it was "staying in the room". Doesn't mean it did, and it doesn't mean that they stopped caring.
They said, none of this has to leave the room. Since at least two other people knew what went on, one of them an Air Force officer solely concerned with their wellbeing, they weren't talking about covering something up, shoving it aside or ignoring it. Therefore, Sam can only have meant that it wasn't something worth talking about; nothing, on her side at least, that would represent a breach of regs.

Nothing went away; there was nothing to start with, bar friendship and the occasional naught thought.

And will you please stop putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about anyone not caring; I said that caring doesn't mean sleeping together. Caring does not equal ship and - in a military context like SG-1, ship doesn't have to equal caring. Like love and marriage, you can perfectly well have one without the other.

zats
January 2nd, 2005, 01:18 PM
Okay, okay, okay. I'm officially sorry for being a stubborn pain in the butt and for putting words in your mouth (accidental, I swear). You're probably not going to convince me and I probably won't be able to convince you. Truce?

Mr Prophet
January 2nd, 2005, 02:17 PM
Okay, okay, okay. I'm officially sorry for being a stubborn pain in the butt and for putting words in your mouth (accidental, I swear). You're probably not going to convince me and I probably won't be able to convince you. Truce?
For sure. I long ago accepted that shippers are strange, delusional creatures who won't listen to reason. ;)

zats
January 2nd, 2005, 02:32 PM
And I long ago accepted that anti-shippers have about as much a sense of romance in others as my vacuum cleaner. ;)

Thank you. :)

Celsius
March 14th, 2005, 08:44 AM
I love this episode, Sam having to kill Martouf was tragic, and I also loved how Sam and Jack could admit to each other how they felt but took it no further. I'm no shipper, but I thought Jack's admission was really sweet.

SmartFox
March 20th, 2005, 05:11 PM
This ep was really sucked. Too much shippyness and they killed Martouf. He was my favorite Tok'ra. :(

SmartFox
March 20th, 2005, 05:14 PM
Also do they talk about Zatars later, because that is hugely unresolved. Do they find a way to test SG teams easier or do they do that little thingy everytime. Please tell me they talk about Zatars in another ep.

Celsius
March 21st, 2005, 11:49 PM
Yep they do though I think it's zatac ;) (not positive though) (season 6 spoilers) in Allegience, the Tok'ra bring a zatac detector to the Alpha site and the possibility is considered that those who are found dead could have been zatacs So at least it didn't fall into the pool of ideas they never come back to.

zats
March 22nd, 2005, 12:15 PM
See, I've devised my own little theory for the zatarc stuff: Anise is evil and is the one behind the curtain pulling all the strings. She got them into the dratted armband incident in 'Upgrades', and she's the one who made Martouf a zatarc--not the goa'uld. With Lt. Astor, I'm thinking that the chair itself did something that made Astor go nuts and kill herself. That's also why Anise was the only one who's figured out how to test for zatarcs--she invented them! Haven't yet figured out a motive, but for a moment I'm settling for the possibility that she's simply psychopathic.

Okeedokee, so it's a little farfetched. But not nearly as farfetched as a galaxywide, hide-under-the-bed threat that turns out to be about as dangerous as Casper the Ghost.

Matt G
March 22nd, 2005, 12:52 PM
Who would that be?

zats
March 22nd, 2005, 03:57 PM
If I have the name right, he's the title character in a sacchrine-sweet Halloween children's film called 'Casper the Friendly Ghost', which has somehow become something of a cult classic. As you may or may not have inferred from the title, it's about a poor little ghostling that doesn't want to scare anybody. Kinda sweet in a dumb way.

Matt G
March 23rd, 2005, 09:47 AM
If I have the name right, he's the title character in a sacchrine-sweet Halloween children's film called 'Casper the Friendly Ghost', which has somehow become something of a cult classic. As you may or may not have inferred from the title, it's about a poor little ghostling that doesn't want to scare anybody. Kinda sweet in a dumb way.

I know who Casper the Ghost is, I remember watching him on breakfast TV as a kid! :rolleyes:

Question is, which Stargate bad guy are you comparing him with?

fair_nymph
March 24th, 2005, 06:47 AM
This was a good, solid episode. The idea of Zatarcs is a clever, and makes sense. Why *wouldn't* the goa'uld develop something like this?

I love the Sam/Jack shippiness, although it did surprise me. Prior to this episode I was under the impression that Sam had a crush on Jack but that the feelings weren't really returned. I guess Jack is just very good at hiding his emotions...better than I thought he would be.

I was impressed that they killed Martouf, seeing as he's a pretty major character. I was quite saddened too as I liked his character, but I'm glad that Sam shot him before he shot himself. Well done Sam.

fan of jack
April 13th, 2005, 02:08 AM
Ok they admitted their feelings for each other but they cant exactly go around the whole base telling everyone else. so when she said none of this has to leave the room i think she meant ok we both know how we feel about each other but because of the work relationship they did'nt want to compicate things. :D

Chaka's_Mum
April 13th, 2005, 04:11 AM
Ok they admitted their feelings for each other but they cant exactly go around the whole base telling everyone else. so when she said none of this has to leave the room i think she meant ok we both know how we feel about each other but because of the work relationship they did'nt want to compicate things. :D

Fortunately, they also only 'fessed up in front of Janet and Teal'c. I can't think of any other people more suitable for this sort of thing (apart from Daniel, of course). Janet wouldn't ever betray a confidence, and gossip is just sooooooooooooooo far beneath Teal'c (could you really see him yakking over a water cooler?). Okay, Anise/Freya was there too, but (failed snog notwithstanding) she seems a pretty straight type when it comes to keeping a confidence.

Mind you, it was just as well that Hammond was busy elsewhere. That would have been one hell of a dilemma for him if he'd overheard it... :eek:

fair_nymph
April 13th, 2005, 09:12 AM
Upon rewatching this ep, I've decided that I think it's Sam who is anti-Ship. She lovec Jack, but won't let herself get involved with him. Jack, who's less the 'think about it' sort, would probably gladly jump in, but Sam has told him, effectively, 'no'. This is my interpretation of the these lines between Sam and Jack:

Sam: 'Sir, none of this has to leave this room.' (read: just because we like each other doesn't mean we should get involved)
Jack: 'And we're ok with that?' (what, you don't WANT to get involved?)
Sam: 'Yes, sir.' (effectively, no, I don't )

sg-1fanintn
April 13th, 2005, 09:20 AM
Well, someone did say the other day that even though they're smart, the characters can be as dense as cheesecake sometimes. You'd think that after saving the planet on numerous occasions, you could get permission to date your CO/21C! I think President Hayes would be cool with that!

But if that had happened, we wouldn't have had four years of shippy tension!

Mr Prophet
April 13th, 2005, 11:17 AM
Well, someone did say the other day that even though they're smart, the characters can be as dense as cheesecake sometimes. You'd think that after saving the planet on numerous occasions, you could get permission to date your CO/21C! I think President Hayes would be cool with that!

But that's not the point; it's not about being allowed to date, it's about morale and good order. If you're dating your 2IC you're prejudicing the chain of command. If you're even thinking regular naughty thoughts about your 2IC you really should get one of you reassigned, because you're putting everyone else on your team in danger otherwise. Moreover, if you're dating, then everyone else in your command will be thinking you're favouring them, even if your not. Favouritism is bad for morale; favouritism like saying that you can date your 2IC but nobody else can. Maybe Hayes is cool with it, but would Lieutenant Bloggs be down if he still couldn't date Major Smith? Or Sergeant Jones, who wants to marry Captain Davis, but isn't allowed to fraternise with the officer class?

Universally appropriate or not, the regulations exist for a reason.

That's why if Sam, a professional Air Force officer, says it doesn't need to be mentioned, there's nothing there worth mentioning.


But if that had happened, we wouldn't have had four years of shippy tension!

Bullet in the vermin head. Shame the PTB didn't leave it dead.

Chaka's_Mum
April 14th, 2005, 10:59 PM
I think that was probably the sentiment behind Sam's assertion that none of what had just been said had to leave the room.

After all, Jack is now bound by protocol (and possibly regulations, too) to go and 'fess up to Hammond that he's got feelings for one of his team-members that are inappropriate. Needless to say, one or the other (possibly both) of them will be expected to go and work elsewhere - and possibly even leave the Mountain completely - to avoid any possible conflict of interest arising.

Sam's no fool (nor is Jack, for that matter), she's well aware that there would be no future for Jack in SG1 (or, quite possibly, for her) if they admit it publicly, and quite possibly no future in the USAF at all if they try to keep a relationship quiet and get found out. Lets face it, in a work situation where everyone has to trust everyone else (and is in each other's pockets a lot of the time) keeping an illicit affair hidden is absolute murder. They'd be found out in a matter of months, and then the smelly stuff would really crash into the whirly thing.

Perhaps that's why Jack is so incredulous. After all, he's an honourable man and the one thing he doesn't want to do is wreck Sam's career (I bet he'd even be willing to retire - again - if need be). Yet here she is suggesting they keep something so potentially explosive quiet - and carry the burden of having to 'be professional' for the rest of their time on SG1. I imagine there are quite a few people out there who will know just how much easier it is to agree to do that than it is to actually do it.

You could almost read the conversation like this:

Sam: Okay, we've proved we're not zatarcs, but only Janet and Teal'c know about this. They won't blab about it, and we don't have to go and 'fess up to the top brass what just came out in here. As long as we don't take things any further, and keep it professional, we won't be breaking any rules and we get to keep things as they are.

Jack: You're willing to do that? It's not going to be that easy, you know.

Sam: Maybe not. But given the alternatives, what choice do we have? I know it sucks, but it's this or nothing. I'm prepared to live with it.

Well, that's my take on it.

greytop
May 2nd, 2005, 05:51 PM
This was a okay episode, IMO.

Believer
May 8th, 2005, 08:59 PM
I think that was probably the sentiment behind Sam's assertion that none of what had just been said had to leave the room.

After all, Jack is now bound by protocol (and possibly regulations, too) to go and 'fess up to Hammond that he's got feelings for one of his team-members that are inappropriate. Needless to say, one or the other (possibly both) of them will be expected to go and work elsewhere - and possibly even leave the Mountain completely - to avoid any possible conflict of interest arising.

Sam's no fool (nor is Jack, for that matter), she's well aware that there would be no future for Jack in SG1 (or, quite possibly, for her) if they admit it publicly, and quite possibly no future in the USAF at all if they try to keep a relationship quiet and get found out. Lets face it, in a work situation where everyone has to trust everyone else (and is in each other's pockets a lot of the time) keeping an illicit affair hidden is absolute murder. They'd be found out in a matter of months, and then the smelly stuff would really crash into the whirly thing.

Perhaps that's why Jack is so incredulous. After all, he's an honourable man and the one thing he doesn't want to do is wreck Sam's career (I bet he'd even be willing to retire - again - if need be). Yet here she is suggesting they keep something so potentially explosive quiet - and carry the burden of having to 'be professional' for the rest of their time on SG1. I imagine there are quite a few people out there who will know just how much easier it is to agree to do that than it is to actually do it.

You could almost read the conversation like this:

Sam: Okay, we've proved we're not zatarcs, but only Janet and Teal'c know about this. They won't blab about it, and we don't have to go and 'fess up to the top brass what just came out in here. As long as we don't take things any further, and keep it professional, we won't be breaking any rules and we get to keep things as they are.

Jack: You're willing to do that? It's not going to be that easy, you know.

Sam: Maybe not. But given the alternatives, what choice do we have? I know it sucks, but it's this or nothing. I'm prepared to live with it.

Well, that's my take on it.

You just about took the words out of mouth. What else can I say? I really enjoyed the episode because of that scene, and the ones that went directly before it. I feel it was the true beginning of the Sam/Jack ship, but that's just my opinion.

QuiGonJohn
May 18th, 2005, 05:33 PM
I liked the episode. But I would have thought they'd try to see if the Asgard or Nox could help take the programming out of anyone's brain who had been planted as a Zatarc.

Historian
May 23rd, 2005, 07:30 PM
I really liked that episode but I've been wondering what was Sam's side of the story. We only got Jack's. Was the script written and left out ??? :rolleyes:

And I agree with Chaka's_Mum It's not the end of the ship. Far from that. :D

Chaka's_Mum
May 24th, 2005, 04:21 AM
I really liked that episode but I've been wondering what was Sam's side of the story. We only got Jack's. Was the script written and left out ??? :rolleyes:

I don't think so. There's no pressing need to see the situation from both perspectives - as the flashback to 'Upgrades' says more than words ever could. Jack's confession (and the sheer poignancy of the dilemma it inspires for him) was powerful enough on its own.

There's also a nice bit of ambiguity left in not showing things from Sam's perspective. She doesn't, at any time in the episode, confess outright to having personal feelings for Jack - not even at the end when they agree to keep the confessions secret.

Having said that, though, the evidence we have suggests that Sam does reciprocate. The way she acts when demanding a re-test suggests that she's prepared to admit to something pretty explosive (and consequences be damned!) - not to mention her expression in the flashback when Jack flips because he can't rescue her. Plus that quiet prompt during Jack's re-test when he still tries to avoid admitting what really happened in the corridor - and why. Despite his best efforts to protect Sam from the consequences of confessing, he still has to admit it in the end.

Which is how I came to my take on what that little conversation in the testing room really meant. In some ways, to have both confessions would have diluted the overall dramatic impact - and in this case, imo, less was definitely more.

Historian
May 24th, 2005, 09:20 AM
I don't think so. There's no pressing need to see the situation from both perspectives - as the flashback to 'Upgrades' says more than words ever could. Jack's confession (and the sheer poignancy of the dilemma it inspires for him) was powerful enough on its own.

There's also a nice bit of ambiguity left in not showing things from Sam's perspective. She doesn't, at any time in the episode, confess outright to having personal feelings for Jack - not even at the end when they agree to keep the confessions secret.

Having said that, though, the evidence we have suggests that Sam does reciprocate. The way she acts when demanding a re-test suggests that she's prepared to admit to something pretty explosive (and consequences be damned!) - not to mention her expression in the flashback when Jack flips because he can't rescue her. Plus that quiet prompt during Jack's re-test when he still tries to avoid admitting what really happened in the corridor - and why. Despite his best efforts to protect Sam from the consequences of confessing, he still has to admit it in the end.

Which is how I came to my take on what that little conversation in the testing room really meant. In some ways, to have both confessions would have diluted the overall dramatic impact - and in this case, imo, less was definitely more.

Ho, I completely agree with you there. It wouldn't have had the same impact at all. What is great about this episode, is that it's all there, suggested, but not entirely showed. And we all know what are Sam's feelings for Jack.

Actually, the way I thought the situation would be resolved between them, at the end of the show, was Sam asking Jack about that fishing trip he always threatened to take her to, and if the proposition was still on. ;)

Suggestion, suggestion, suggestion. That's what I like about Sam and Jack.

I was just curious about how she really felt, and how she said it.

Abydosian
May 27th, 2005, 02:09 PM
Just watched this episode and saw the incredibly sad ending with Martouf - have since then spent the last couple of hours or so searching for any information on his return to no avail :(

He was one of my favourite characters, pretty much the only Tok'ra other than Jacob that I really felt comfortable with and was a good recurring character, and I couldnt believe it when he died - it hit me a lot harder than I ever would have imagined. Guess it shows how gripping Stargate is.

They built up the character so well, especially after the whole ordeal in the hell moon - I couldnt believe it when he died :(

Is it true they were going to bring him back later in season 5 or so (I'm only up to season 4) but couldnt because the actor was unavailable - and as a result, we'll never see the martouf character again?

I guess I just need to wait a while for my awful memory to kick in, forget he ever died, and destroy the DVD

Does anyone know exactly what the reasons were for his death? Did the actor just not want to do it anymore, did they want to get rid of a main character and he was the unlucky one picked, or what? :(

Other than that, I liked the idea of the episode, just sad about Martouf

Chaka's_Mum
June 17th, 2005, 04:45 AM
Just watched this episode and saw the incredibly sad ending with Martouf - have since then spent the last couple of hours or so searching for any information on his return to no avail

I'm assuming that you really, really want to know the answer to this, so here it is - in spoiler tags for those who don't want to know, of course.

The Omnipedia has the details - but I can confirm that (sadly) this is the last we see of Martouf (apart from brief appearances in 'Previously on Stargate SG1' recaps).


He was one of my favourite characters, pretty much the only Tok'ra other than Jacob that I really felt comfortable with and was a good recurring character, and I couldnt believe it when he died - it hit me a lot harder than I ever would have imagined. Guess it shows how gripping Stargate is.

I know what you mean. That moment of 'ship is a very neat distraction from the main plot - 'find the Za'tarc'. The discovery of a 'Za'tarc Alert!' reading on Sam and Jack completely sidetracks the whole thing, and it's only at the last possible minute that they realise that there is one person on the base who could well have been compromised - but hasn't been tested...

It's a tidy diversion - and it really does ramp up the impact of the discovery that Martouf is the Za'tarc. Until that moment, it probably never occurred to anyone even to consider that possibility. Anise, of course, hasn't been off-base at any time while all this brain-tampering has been going on - so she's okay. But what about Martouf?

:eek:

It was sad to see him go - Martouf has been a fab recurring character. But, if he had to go, at least he got a really good dramatic exit. He could have been simply referred to in passing ('oh, by the way - did I tell you that Martouf snuffed it recently?'), or just vanished, never to appear again.

divcon
June 24th, 2005, 06:26 AM
I don't think so. There's no pressing need to see the situation from both perspectives - as the flashback to 'Upgrades' says more than words ever could. Jack's confession (and the sheer poignancy of the dilemma it inspires for him) was powerful enough on its own.

There's also a nice bit of ambiguity left in not showing things from Sam's perspective. She doesn't, at any time in the episode, confess outright to having personal feelings for Jack - not even at the end when they agree to keep the confessions secret.

Having said that, though, the evidence we have suggests that Sam does reciprocate. The way she acts when demanding a re-test suggests that she's prepared to admit to something pretty explosive (and consequences be damned!) - not to mention her expression in the flashback when Jack flips because he can't rescue her. Plus that quiet prompt during Jack's re-test when he still tries to avoid admitting what really happened in the corridor - and why. Despite his best efforts to protect Sam from the consequences of confessing, he still has to admit it in the end.

Which is how I came to my take on what that little conversation in the testing room really meant. In some ways, to have both confessions would have diluted the overall dramatic impact - and in this case, imo, less was definitely more.

Oh yes, you are so right. TPTB show Sam's side in later season, mainly Season 7 (Grace). As you can see my name is DIVCON (DIVide and CONquer) so yes I love this episode. I was such a touching scene in Jack's flashback. Just the look between them almost melted the TV. Apparently there was supposed to be words said but the actors decided a look was worth a thousand words and wern't they so right. Although I would love to know what was supposed to have been said between them.

Also in the room with Freya when Sam was prompting Jack the look in her eyes conveyed a world of feelings, feelings she had for Jack. I agree that Jack was still trying to protect Carter from any fall-out if the wrong people heard what had been said in the room.

On the subject of Martouf, yes the host did die that day :( :( but the Tok'ra symbiote Lantash did survive but later died Season 5 episode 16 ' Last Stand'. So Sam had to watch him die twice, first Martouf whom Sam had grown fond of and then Lantash whom Sam still had Jolinar's feelings for him.

Anyway, thats my say. See you soon. :rolleyes:

Commander Aegir
June 24th, 2005, 08:31 AM
great directing from Martin Wood (never doubt him) and it is quite messy when Martouf gets shot by the two guards I like that part because I never liked Martouf

zats
June 30th, 2005, 03:36 PM
I know who Casper the Ghost is, I remember watching him on breakfast TV as a kid! :rolleyes:

Question is, which Stargate bad guy are you comparing him with?

Any number of the 'Big!Bad!Bully!Run!Away!' threats that were minor sensations and then faded into obscurity. The Ree'tou, the zatarcs...threats that were hyped for a few eps and then sort of disappeared without much nudging on the SGC's part. :cool:

Matt G
July 1st, 2005, 01:38 PM
Right!

Perriman33
August 14th, 2005, 05:39 AM
It got a bit mushy just after the middle but I really liked the idea of this episode. Jack and sam looked a bit uncomfortable telling everyone what happened and I thoght the idea of the za'tarc was good. Had me guessing right to the end anyway. How could they kill martouf :( him and sam are the only ones that smile in the show, he even managed one at the end. :)
Those small weapons were cool as well, pity we never saw much said about them! :)

Uber
August 14th, 2005, 11:37 PM
I really liked that episode but I've been wondering what was Sam's side of the story. We only got Jack's. Was the script written and left out ??? :rolleyes:

And I agree with Chaka's_Mum It's not the end of the ship. Far from that. :DWell not only do we know from future eps how Sam feels, we know from this ep too:

Sam: The machine thinks that we have false memories, but we don't. We were lying.
Jack: I wasn't lying.
Sam: Okay. You left something out.
Jack: No, I didn't.
Sam: Sir, when you wouldn't leave me, are you sure there wasn't something else that you're not admitting?
Jack: What are you talkin' about?
Sam: Something neither one of us can admit, given our working relationship, our military ranks....
Jack: Oh! (Pause) Oh, that.
It got a bit mushy just after the middle but I really liked the idea of this episode. Jack and sam looked a bit uncomfortable telling everyone what happened and I thoght the idea of the za'tarc was good. Had me guessing right to the end anyway. How could they kill martouf :( him and sam are the only ones that smile in the show, he even managed one at the end. :)
Those small weapons were cool as well, pity we never saw much said about them! :)But we do get to see that weapon again in Chimera...

:D

Hulabaloo
August 15th, 2005, 03:05 AM
Such a good ep, such a sad ending.

At least in this ep they get it out of the way.

Beatrice Otter
August 17th, 2005, 10:24 PM
I don't think so. There's no pressing need to see the situation from both perspectives - as the flashback to 'Upgrades' says more than words ever could. Jack's confession (and the sheer poignancy of the dilemma it inspires for him) was powerful enough on its own.

There's also a nice bit of ambiguity left in not showing things from Sam's perspective. She doesn't, at any time in the episode, confess outright to having personal feelings for Jack - not even at the end when they agree to keep the confessions secret.

Having said that, though, the evidence we have suggests that Sam does reciprocate. The way she acts when demanding a re-test suggests that she's prepared to admit to something pretty explosive (and consequences be damned!) - not to mention her expression in the flashback when Jack flips because he can't rescue her. Plus that quiet prompt during Jack's re-test when he still tries to avoid admitting what really happened in the corridor - and why. Despite his best efforts to protect Sam from the consequences of confessing, he still has to admit it in the end.

Which is how I came to my take on what that little conversation in the testing room really meant. In some ways, to have both confessions would have diluted the overall dramatic impact - and in this case, imo, less was definitely more.
The only way they could have made two confessions work (and not have the second one feel like an anti-climax) would be to intercut between the two. Jack says something, cut to Sam saying something similar, cut back to Jack, etc.

Chaka's_Mum
August 17th, 2005, 10:50 PM
That's certainly a possibility; though I think I'd find that a tad heavy handed and perhaps a bit long-winded too.

I think they got the focus right with this one - primarily because the confession has so much more impact coming from Jack alone. The fact that Sam's feelings are largely left to our imaginations is a nice touch. We know that she's confessed to something that occurs between her and Jack - but we don't actually know what it is. We only know that Jack has feelings for her which are deemed 'inappropriate' by their circumstances.

Now, it's a fairly safe bet (what am I saying? It's pretty much a given) that Sam feels the same way about Jack. However, this has been left open to interpretation. Sam could simply be confessing (and later prompts Jack to confess) that there are inappropriate feelings in the mix - but only on his side - which were, by tacit agreement between them both, not to be referred to in future; until they were overtly expressed by Jack during the mission.

Yep, it's an unlikely theory - but I like the fact that the situation leaves me able to propose it.

gwenhwyfar
August 20th, 2005, 01:44 PM
The only way they could have made two confessions work (and not have the second one feel like an anti-climax) would be to intercut between the two. Jack says something, cut to Sam saying something similar, cut back to Jack, etc.

I had always thought it was a little weird that they did not show Sam's confession (given that SHE was the one who demanded a retest). But when you put it that way, I have to agree. It would have just been like they were repeating the same scene over again. But it would have been kind of interesting (though not as dramatic/emotional) to have both confessions.

Stricken
September 8th, 2005, 04:42 AM
err..an okay episode pity about Martouf but what you going to do about it ehh! Thank God Jack and Sam arent Zatarcs and they finaly admitted their were feelings for each other even though they never talked about it since! lol

Ascendant
September 9th, 2005, 03:19 AM
Actually, when Sam said that it wouldn't "leave the room" she meant it literally. Every night when everyone else has left the base they run back to that room, lock the doors and get on with the lovin'.

And speaking of the lovin', what's with the folks who hate Annise/Freya for her supposed lack of clothing? I think it's just a contrast - because of all the uniforms and stuff, the SGC usually looks more virginal than a fundamentalist private highschool. Her costume in this episode was kinda un-Tok'ra-ish, but her other ones were neat. It's not at all unusual to see people wearing clothing of that sparseness in real life, especially in hot areas like amusement parks and desert planets.

She was kind of bland, but reoccurring characters always get my support. I don't get it...she was almost a major character for like four episodes, then just vanishes into nowhereland after this. If they were going to focus so much on introducing a new character, wouldn't they have some explanation for why she vanished? It's like her only purpose was to get turned down by Jack so we could be introduced to the Jack/Sam ship.

Maybe that's all she was there for...to fake us out into thinking that Jack was gonna go for her. I dunno. Maybe Annise really IS evil, which is why Martouf wasn't tested. It seems ludicrous that they'd just "forget" him. His death was really dramatic. Poor guy.

Anyway...neat episode, and pivotal. In the mush-starved world of Stargate, a declaration of love is a big deal.

Albion
September 9th, 2005, 07:06 AM
Maybe that's all she was there for...to fake us out into thinking that Jack was gonna go for her. I dunno.

Actually, she was there because some executive at the time had the 'bright idea' :rolleyes: that Stargate needed a Seven of Nine character. Some sex bimbo who'd wear skimpy clothing and get the demograph of teen boys all hot and bothered and keen to watch. Seven of Nine had just been introduced in Voyager and was getting some very hot press attention. The executive wing of TPTB jumped wholeheartedly onto the bandwagon.

Fortunately, Gaters proved more sophisticated, hated the character and the tacky attempt at ratings she represented, and she was dumped after only a few episodes.

The writers even poked fun at him and that decision in Wormhole Xtreme:


Scene: Martin, and two bigwigs move away from the catering truck towards a limo. I think one is Hank Cohen from MGM.

COHEN: You know I was thinking, you know what this show needs? A sexy female alien. Trust me.

MARTIN: (unenthusiastic) Yeah.

Not sure if this Hank Cohen was the executive in question. But, anyway, I hear whoever he was, to his credit, he took the joke quite well. :p

Actually, for myself, I was never that bothered by Anise/Freya. I found her character quite interesting at times and if she'd been introduced and used in a different way that had highlighted less on the appalling clothing and more on her attitude, the differences between her host/snake characters (which were more marked than in other Tok'ra we saw) etc, I'd have been very happy to see more of her. As it was, she was seriously undermined by her role as teen tease.

I have to say I didn't even find the clothing sexy. Granted, I'm not a teen boy :p, but all the same. The first costume she wore was kind of cute, I thought, but dear god that grey, plastic molded thing she wore in this episode...ugh.

Albion :)

walter_MacChevron
September 17th, 2005, 10:55 AM
I thought this episode was pretty good.....its nice to see they are dealing with sam and jack's relationship again

Ascendant
September 21st, 2005, 08:01 PM
Actually, she was there because some executive at the time had the 'bright idea' :rolleyes: that Stargate needed a Seven of Nine character. Some sex bimbo who'd wear skimpy clothing and get the demograph of teen boys all hot and bothered and keen to watch. Seven of Nine had just been introduced in Voyager and was getting some very hot press attention. The executive wing of TPTB jumped wholeheartedly onto the bandwagon.
I dunno. I guess I just have a hard time believing that the People in Charge would be that...shallow? Create a character exclusively for sex appeal? I mean, I'm sure it was a consideration (frankly Sam is fairly boyish and Janet is too maternal), but it doesn't seem like it would be the exclusive drive to creating a character that's so useful to the plot.

It seemed like they made her to be more unique than anything, at least for Stargate. I can't say that I like the character, exactly (she's too distant and Tok'ra-ish) but I like the idea of the character. And more than anything, I hate that the integrity of the plot was sacrificed to give her a swift and silent ejection from the show due to audiences misreading her as a thinly veiled attempt to woo the more base instincts of a certain demographic. I mean, let's face it...she doesn't even get killed offscreen.


I have to say I didn't even find the clothing sexy. Granted, I'm not a teen boy :p, but all the same. The first costume she wore was kind of cute, I thought, but dear god that grey, plastic molded thing she wore in this episode...ugh.
I agree. Very un-Tok'ra-ish. As an ex-teen boy, I would be a fair judge. Her first two costumes (or was it one? I don't remember) were more stylish than slutty, like Desert Vogue with really cool boots. The one she wore in this episode makes me think that she has Seven of Nine unconscious in a closet somewhere. I'm going to discontinue that line of thought before it gets me in trouble.

sarah_uk
October 16th, 2005, 09:46 AM
Actually, when Sam said that it wouldn't "leave the room" she meant it literally. Every night when everyone else has left the base they run back to that room, lock the doors and get on with the lovin'.


LMAO

Albion
October 16th, 2005, 02:08 PM
I dunno. I guess I just have a hard time believing that the People in Charge would be that...shallow? Create a character exclusively for sex appeal? I mean, I'm sure it was a consideration (frankly Sam is fairly boyish and Janet is too maternal), but it doesn't seem like it would be the exclusive drive to creating a character that's so useful to the plot.

Believe it. It's a matter of official record that this was the sole reason for introducing Anise. Many of the crew, from directors to producers, to the execs themselves have stated so unequivocally in the past in interviews etc. A single exec had been watching the press attention Seven was getting and figured a similar sexy, skimpily-dressed alien on SG1 might bump up ratings too. It's not so much a question of being shallow as it is doing what execs do. They watch the trends, see what's working elsewhere, and jump on the current bandwagon to adopt those ideas for their own shows in the hope that they'll achieve a similar reaction. And there are few shows out there which don't bow down to the Great God Teen Guy Demographic. If they can pander to that one, they'll jump at the chance. Whatever it takes. ;)

Sadly, even SG1 execs have a brain lapse now and then. But, you know, for the most part they've kept their sticky little mitts off the show. Much more than execs on other shows have. So that's to their credit.

Albion :)

Chaka's_Mum
October 18th, 2005, 03:44 AM
True indeed. Anise/Freya's potential as a recurring character was inevitably cramped by the need to attire her in skimpy rubber whatnots and lumber her with that silly crush on Jack. Whether she would have been more acceptable had she worn Tok'ra Khaki Fatigues and left her libido at home, we'll never know. Going for the lust-bunny element killed off any chance we might have had to find out.

skritsys
November 8th, 2005, 10:22 AM
IMO, this was an ok ep, kind of lost the flair when Anise/Freya came onto Jack. That seemed a little off.

BigGator5
November 8th, 2005, 10:31 AM
I like the talk Jack and Daniel had about Anise/Freya. Classic scene! :cool:

skritsys
November 8th, 2005, 12:11 PM
any scene with Jack and Daniel are going to be good.

BigGator5
November 8th, 2005, 03:32 PM
I also have an idea for Anise/Vala (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?p=4638280#post4638280)...

The Signal
December 24th, 2005, 12:24 PM
Wow this was a fantastic episode with something for everyone! Seriously, I dont think I blinked at all during this ep!!!

Chaka's_Mum
January 2nd, 2006, 10:40 PM
Wow this was a fantastic episode with something for everyone! Seriously, I dont think I blinked at all during this ep!!!


Ouch - bet your eyes were sore afterwards!:D ;) :)

Definitely a cracker of an episode - assassins in such deep cover that even they don't know about it. Not to mention getting sidetracked by the whole :love: thing!

BigBadBob
January 2nd, 2006, 10:45 PM
Do we have a zanax detector or not? I think this was the episode that that line was spoken. Classic.

And the, Yep, these are the Jack O'Neill moments I would miss the most. When Jack is jsut sitting there, folling around with a yo-yo, when he could go crazy and kill himself at any moment.

Among my favorite episodes.

AGateFan
January 3rd, 2006, 02:24 PM
Another classic ep. I loved it, except the end when they started the first of their long line of killing off great characters. Poor Marty, why couldnt it be Arnise... oh yea we wouldnt have cared if it was arnise. At least Martys death wasnt contrived and had some type of meaning, unlike the others that follow.

Still some great lines and great acting and it did make me break out my Upgrades DVD to make sure I didnt miss anything the first time I saw this ep.
:)

jckfan55
January 3rd, 2006, 02:55 PM
True indeed. Anise/Freya's potential as a recurring character was inevitably cramped by the need to attire her in skimpy rubber whatnots and lumber her with that silly crush on Jack. Whether she would have been more acceptable had she worn Tok'ra Khaki Fatigues and left her libido at home, we'll never know. Going for the lust-bunny element killed off any chance we might have had to find out.
Excellent point. She could have made a good semi-nemesis. I loved the hostility between Anise and Fraiser in Upgrades. It wasn't about the outfit, it was about the arrogance.

skeezix
January 31st, 2006, 12:04 PM
Ooh this episode is one of my favorites. The Tok'ra lie detector thing was an awesome way to force O'Neill and Carter to reveal their feelings. I had never seen a similar situation that I recall so this episode always sticks out in my mind as unique.

And no more Freya after this? WTH? Her and her tight outfit were great. She should be brought back posthaste.

HirogenGater
February 4th, 2006, 11:39 AM
I like the talk Jack and Daniel had about Anise/Freya. Classic scene! :cool:

Jack: What?
Daniel: What?

Gotta love it.

HirogenGater
February 4th, 2006, 11:41 AM
Do we have a zanax detector or not? I think this was the episode that that line was spoken. Classic.

Another classic O'Neill line.




Among my favorite episodes.

I just re-watched this today, what a great episode. After seeing Ripple Effect, I have been watching the old Martouf eps.

L.A. Doyle
April 19th, 2006, 11:06 PM
I LOVE this ep. Ok, so I'm a die hard shipper. I don't really like Anise...she can put on some clothes! Gee. Poor Martouf, he was alright for a Tok'ra. Why couldn't it have been Anise?

cute_az_can_be
April 22nd, 2006, 06:37 PM
Another classic ep. I loved it, except the end when they started the first of their long line of killing off great characters. Poor Marty, why couldnt it be Arnise... oh yea we wouldnt have cared if it was arnise. At least Martys death wasnt contrived and had some type of meaning, unlike the others that follow.

Still some great lines and great acting and it did make me break out my Upgrades DVD to make sure I didnt miss anything the first time I saw this ep.
:)
yeah was quite upsetting when they killed ole marty since JR Bourne is such an awesome actor.

Oh jeepers so love the moments between Jack and Sam, one of the classic shippy moments. I love the flashback from the back mission when Sam says "Sir just go" and Jack yells"No"...that No gives me chills evertime and then the looks they give each other whoa! :)

*happy shippy sigh*

-JJ

cute_az_can_be
April 22nd, 2006, 06:38 PM
Jack: What?
Daniel: What?

Gotta love it.

yeah that's classic....I so heart Jack and Danny banter.

-JJ

captain jake
April 22nd, 2006, 08:13 PM
definately a sad episode Martouf was a great guy.

Chelle DB
April 29th, 2006, 03:59 AM
[QUOTE=cute_az_can_be]yeah was quite upsetting when they killed ole marty since JR Bourne is such an awesome actor.

Oh jeepers so love the moments between Jack and Sam, one of the classic shippy moments. I love the flashback from the back mission when Sam says "Sir just go" and Jack yells"No"...that No gives me chills evertime and then the looks they give each other whoa! :)

Oh yeah, you gotta love that. It is a pity they killed Martouf instead of some other deadbeat Tok'ra like... oh let's see...Anise! How could they truly keep it in that room? I can't wait for the day these 2 finally get together. Cheers shippers!;)

keshya
May 4th, 2006, 11:57 AM
still one of my favourite episodes ever! next to threads (season 8)

absolutely love Sam/Jack!

the part when he finally confesses he cares about her, when he wants to sacrifise himself because her brain's worth more than his, actually every part of the episode was great.

too bad jack's left the SGC and there are no more oppotunities for such a jack/sam moment. but he does come back in season 10 so here's hopin'!

:samanime51: :jack_new_anime04:

captain jake
May 4th, 2006, 04:03 PM
Haha I don't think they will ever get together but you never know.

Chaka's_Mum
May 4th, 2006, 10:33 PM
Too true. Not, at least, while they're both in the Military anyway. Jack would have to retire.

Again.


and then the looks they give each other whoa!

Yes - those expressions are mega intense, aren't they? They say more than words ever could. It was fab. Even for a boring old "keep the 'ship off screen, please" kind of person like me.;)

keshya
May 6th, 2006, 03:55 AM
actually I've read somewhere that
in S10 Jack's recently retired http://melyanna.livejournal.com/205413.html#cutid1 (thanks to melyanna) so who knows :)

captain jake
May 6th, 2006, 08:27 PM
Not to be the ballbuster here, but how acurate do you think her info is?

keshya
May 7th, 2006, 01:39 AM
don't know exactly where she gets it from, but she does get a lot of sneak peeks

if you wanna know, ask her. she's around here somewhere

Melyanna
May 7th, 2006, 04:56 AM
Not to be the ballbuster here, but how acurate do you think her info is?
This came from the casting sides, the same place GW's spoilers came from. Due to copyright reasons, I can't give you the exact line, obviously, but it's in there. That doesn't, however, mean it'll appear in the episode when it airs. Any number of things from time constraints to other writers to RDA's tendency to ad-lib could mean the line gets deleted, but as of Martin Gero's final draft, it's in there.

captain jake
May 7th, 2006, 12:06 PM
Cool!!

OrangeShipper
November 8th, 2006, 11:39 AM
i LOVE this episode!! (Shipper all the way!). Except Anise... I just don't like her. She has a wierd mouth, and her head kinda jolts when she talks, it really bugs me. Anyway..

There's a look that S&J share that I totally, totally love that noboadys mentioned.. Just as Jacks being led away to have the "procedure", when Sams about to be drugged, she looks down the corridoor at him and he turns back to look at her, and it kinda goes a bit slow-mo.. That look is just AMAZING, it turns me to jelly!!!

scifi_girl
November 10th, 2006, 08:15 AM
i LOVE this episode!! (Shipper all the way!). Except Anise... I just don't like her. She has a wierd mouth, and her head kinda jolts when she talks, it really bugs me. Anyway..

There's a look that S&J share that I totally, totally love that noboadys mentioned.. Just as Jacks being led away to have the "procedure", when Sams about to be drugged, she looks down the corridoor at him and he turns back to look at her, and it kinda goes a bit slow-mo.. That look is just AMAZING, it turns me to jelly!!!

yeah, thats one of my favourite moments. i love the whole episode

meredithchandler73
November 19th, 2006, 04:54 AM
Does anyone know whether the memories we see (stuff that was supposed to have taken place during Upgrades, but weren't in the episode) were filmed at the time Upgrades was filmed or if they went back and inserted that new stuff?

Chaka's_Mum
November 19th, 2006, 11:04 PM
I suspect that they were filmed at the same time as the rest of 'Upgrades', otherwise they would have had to have rebuilt that part of the set just for one very short sequence. Unless they have stock 'Goa'uld ship corridor' sets that they use for that purpose, of course! :)

Callista
November 20th, 2006, 10:37 PM
OK, so I'm finally watching all the episodes in order. On first viewing about a year ago I thought this episode was all right. Not great, but not horrible either. Now, however I think this is my most hated episode. Not just dislike, but absolute HATE! Let me clarify that I love Sam. I love Jack. I love Daniel. And, I love Teal'c. I'm not a slasher. I don't have a huge problem with ship, as long as it stays about the level of Solitudes. This episode had so many things going against it.
1)Anise/Freya's outfit was horrendous! When ALL the other Tok'ra dress in what PDL describes as "Tripe", I find it quite unbelievable that one of their top scientists dresses like a showgirl.
2)Anise/Freya/Jack/Daniel What?!?!? Is Stargate going in for foursomes now?
3)a)Jack tells them that the reason he couldn't leave Carter behind is because he cares for her "a lot more than I'm supposed to". Hello?!? Wasn't he also trapped behind multiple force fields? Daniel and Teal'c couldn't get back in, so presumably he couldn't have gotten out even if he wanted to.
3)b)Teal'c and Daniel could have left, but they chose to stay behind and get blown up with Carter and Jack even though they didn't even know where they were. For all they knew, they'd already whooshed out a back door and were at the Stargate. Does this mean that they both have inappropriate feelings for Jack and/or Sam?
3)c)Does anyone here believe Jack wouldn't have stayed behind if it had been Teal'c or Daniel stuck behind that force field? Or Frasier? Or Hammond? Or Bra'tac? Or ANYONE he knew?! Jack's catch-line has always been "We don't leave our people behind!" Since when does that only apply to people he is romantically involved with?
4)I think this episode cheapens Sam's character. I love that she is super smart. I love that she is a good soldier. I love that she is a caring and moral individual. I love that she is a great friend. I hate that the writers chose to make it appear that she would have fought less and cared less if it were Teal'c or Daniel or Janet that were being led off to have their brains fried.
5)I think Jack is a great leader and I don't like that, from this point onwards, he keeps toying with Sam (all the way to Season 8, where she dumps her fiance because she is still not sure of Jack's feelings for her). If he really loves her and is pretty sure that she loves him back, he should have retired. He retired before. Or, he should come right out and tell her they have no future. This episode starts a long run where they just make goo-goo eyes at eachother. It felt rather 90210 to me. When they said "none of this leaves this room" (although at least 3 other people witnessed it) it would seem to imply that they are putting a stop to it. Of course that doesn't happen. Sam is not some hormonal schoolgirl. Jack should be old enough and wise enough to know better. In Solitudes, nothing was stated, but their affection for eachother was obvious, but they could have gone on denying their feeling for eachother. After Divide and Conquer, everything is out in the open. At the very least, they should have been on different teams.
6)My husband brought up the fact that the whole pre-programmed assassin that doesn't know they've been pre-programmed was very reminiscent of "Strange Brew". From then on, I was picturing Walter up there playing the fatal chord on the organ that would cause Martouf to skate around and kill the President with a hockey puck.

So.....
I'm sorry if I've offended shippers. Now that we're in season 10, I have no problem if they want to imply Jack and Sam are dating eachother on the sly. But for the 6 years in between, I see this episode as the point where the show veered off the track of the remarkable friendship/loyalty/trust that was shared between 4 remarkable individuals. I still love SG-1, but I don't think it ever quite got that back.

Two_L's
April 7th, 2007, 06:59 AM
This episode had so many things going against it.
3)a)Jack tells them that the reason he couldn't leave Carter behind is because he cares for her "a lot more than I'm supposed to". Hello?!? Wasn't he also trapped behind multiple force fields? Daniel and Teal'c couldn't get back in, so presumably he couldn't have gotten out even if he wanted to.
3)b)Teal'c and Daniel could have left, but they chose to stay behind and get blown up with Carter and Jack even though they didn't even know where they were. For all they knew, they'd already whooshed out a back door and were at the Stargate. Does this mean that they both have inappropriate feelings for Jack and/or Sam?
3)c)Does anyone here believe Jack wouldn't have stayed behind if it had been Teal'c or Daniel stuck behind that force field? Or Frasier? Or Hammond? Or Bra'tac? Or ANYONE he knew?! Jack's catch-line has always been "We don't leave our people behind!" Since when does that only apply to people he is romantically involved with?

Just a guess here, but I think Jack had to say that he cared about Carter because of the tense 'moment' between them. Both Jack and Sam had avoided speaking of that specific situation that had occurred which is why the machine thought they were lying. Of course, O'Neill would've stayed behind for any of his team, but the underlying reason for his determination and desperation to rescue Teal'c or Daniel had they been in the same compromise, would only be a matter of friendship and loyalty. Therefore, all he would have had to say was, 'he is a member of my team, and a friend, and I couldn't leave without him.'

With Carter it was different. He could say 'she's a friend and I won't leave her', which is true, but the machine was capable of knowing when the whole truth was not being told. And here, the whole truth was, that he cared for her, "a lot more" than he's supposed to, and was completely omitting the fact that his personal feelings had been revealed while they were on the ship, albeit unspoken.

To the episode, I thought it was excellent! Although Anise's outfit was awful and quite distracting to say the least, the episode itself was really well done and I liked the not knowing if O'Neill or Carter where infected or not. I was sad about Martouf 's demise though, he was an awesome character despite that he could have prevented Sam/Jack shippyness ;)

Chaka's_Mum
April 18th, 2007, 11:15 AM
I think the issue Callista is raising is not so much the fact that the Za'tarc detector required the truth to emerge despite Jack and Sam's attempts to hide it, but the 'truth' that it brought to light.

Like Callista, I find the sudden emergence of a definite 'yes, they are' as opposed to 'are they/aren't they' like this somewhat unfortunate - and for many of the same reasons.

I am not actively opposed to 'ship - but I don't subscribe to it, so this episode just opens up doors I would much rather have remained closed. I could elaborate, but I think Mr Prophet has put it best:


If you're dating your 2IC you're prejudicing the chain of command. If you're even thinking regular naughty thoughts about your 2IC you really should get one of you reassigned, because you're putting everyone else on your team in danger otherwise. Moreover, if you're dating, then everyone else in your command will be thinking you're favouring them, even if your not. Favouritism is bad for morale; favouritism like saying that you can date your 2IC but nobody else can. Maybe Hayes is cool with it, but would Lieutenant Bloggs be down if he still couldn't date Major Smith? Or Sergeant Jones, who wants to marry Captain Davis, but isn't allowed to fraternise with the officer class?

Universally appropriate or not, the regulations exist for a reason.

Given that it is clear that Jack has now lost his objectivity where Sam is concerned, what's happened to his professional integrity? Does he realise what could happen to both him and Sam if this were ever to come to light? Surely they can't believe that it won't at some stage? In a closed environment like that, things like this can't stay under wraps - there are always rumours.

Again - sorry if this offends shippers - it's not meant to! My beef is not with 'ship itself but the fact that, when it was merely 'implied' I could ignore it. Now it's being shoved in my face whether I want it or not.

beccabob593
June 27th, 2007, 02:06 PM
i was so sad when martouf died he is one of my fav non sg1 characters poor martouf!

Harlan's Speechwriter
August 1st, 2007, 11:56 AM
i was so sad when martouf died he is one of my fav non sg1 characters poor martouf!

I too was sad to loose Martouf; he and Jacob Carter are/were my favourite characters among the Tokr'a.

I liked the concept of this episode; the idea of the Goual'd creating hidden, human 'weapons' was both clever and engaging. But, without meaning to offend shippers, I didn't really appreciate the Sam/Jack issue being forced on me so openly. Suggestions are ok, as you can read whatever you like into them, but this was laid on a bit thickly for my personal taste.

It also calls into question Jack and Sam's professionalism - surely things like this don't stay under wraps all that long, in such a confined organisation?

Verona
August 5th, 2007, 03:05 AM
I love the Hair issues Jack has if you go back and watch the scene when he is re tested one shot he looks like he's been dragged backwards through a hedge the next its all nice and neat. I think the rufflers from the thunk thread got to him.

Cascade
August 5th, 2007, 06:42 AM
This episode = w00t! :love:

I don't just like it because I'm a Sam/Jack fan, but because I thought the whole Zatarc concept was interesting too, as was Anise's lie-detector contraption. Despite Anise's frankly terrifying dress sense, and the death of poor Martouf (:(), this rates as (yet another) one of my favourites so far.

My favourite SG-1 episode list keeps growing and growing, hehe. :D

Nikki
August 14th, 2007, 09:43 PM
3)a)Jack tells them that the reason he couldn't leave Carter behind is because he cares for her "a lot more than I'm supposed to". Hello?!? Wasn't he also trapped behind multiple force fields? Daniel and Teal'c couldn't get back in, so presumably he couldn't have gotten out even if he wanted to.

Yes, he probably couldn't have gotten out but the point is that he didn't know that. He assumed that Daniel/Teal'c made it out of there and so could he, if he left Sam behind, as they got in there easily enough. He couldn't have predicted that a force field would drop down blocking his exit.


3)b)Teal'c and Daniel could have left, but they chose to stay behind and get blown up with Carter and Jack even though they didn't even know where they were. For all they knew, they'd already whooshed out a back door and were at the Stargate. Does this mean that they both have inappropriate feelings for Jack and/or Sam?

No, it doesn't. But the explanation for why Daniel/Teal'c stayed and why Jack stayed are different and are shown in the episode. Daniel/Teal'c stay because they 'never leave a man behind' - loyalty and friendship. Jack says he didn't leave because he cares about Sam 'a lot more that he's supposed too'...implying that she isn't just another soldier to him. He would’ve stayed behind for any other person/comrade but because of his sense of duty and honour not because of personal/intimate feelings. He further confirms this by saying 'I didn't leave . . . because I'd have rather died myself . . . than lose Carter.' - he'd rather die than grieve the loss of Sam. That's not just friendship or loyalty, he's lost friends/comrades before and each time it must have been painful but in this case he'd rather die than grieve.


3)c)Does anyone here believe Jack wouldn't have stayed behind if it had been Teal'c or Daniel stuck behind that force field? Or Frasier? Or Hammond? Or Bra'tac? Or ANYONE he knew?! Jack's catch-line has always been "We don't leave our people behind!" Since when does that only apply to people he is romantically involved with?

Yes, I do but not for the same reasons (see above) and that’s why it doesn’t imply he is romantically involved with them.



4)I think this episode cheapens Sam's character. I love that she is super smart. I love that she is a good soldier. I love that she is a caring and moral individual. I love that she is a great friend. I hate that the writers chose to make it appear that she would have fought less and cared less if it were Teal'c or Daniel or Janet that were being led off to have their brains fried.

I don't think that they implied that at all. She would have cared for all her friends as much but again just not in the same way. She knows Jack as well as we know him, he showed how much he didn't trust the Tok'ra especially Anise/Freya and would rather choose any other option than use what they had to offer and so the only other reason he would be going through with the procedure would be if it would benefit Sam in some way...and he says as much, which Janet relays back to Sam.

So obviously she's also going to have a sense of guilt as well as realise the underlying reason for why he suddenly put his life on something/someone that he verbalised his severe distrust of, esp in that ep. After seeing what happened to Lt. Astor no one in their right mind would go through with the procedure with the sole belief that 'oh maybe it'll work this time' especially when another option was available, there was obviously another reason and she knew that it was because of his feelings for her.

And if those feelings were just of friendship, why would she say 'Something neither one of us can admit, given our working relationship, our military ranks....'. They're allowed to be friends and the military is all about sacrificing your own life in order to save a fellow team mate’s but what the military doesn't allow for is what Jack did...sacrifice your life because you'd rather die than grieve the loss of another because your feelings go beyond that of friendship.



5)I think Jack is a great leader and I don't like that, from this point onwards, he keeps toying with Sam (all the way to Season 8, where she dumps her fiance because she is still not sure of Jack's feelings for her).

Well from then on (except for 'Threads') it's pretty much interpretation. Personally, I don't feel that he toyed with her and if I was forced to choose, I'd say it was Sam who toyed with Jack, even though I feel that neither did.

They had this status quo after D&C where they both knew the extent of their feelings for each other but knew that it couldn't go any further for the time being. But it was Sam who changed that mid-season 7 by dating Pete and tried to confront Jack in 'Lost City' to which he replied 'I know'. I interpreted that subtext as Sam trying to tell him that she still had feelings for him but was trying to move on by dating Pete because there was no solution to their dilemma...“I know” - Jack.

And Sam tells him that Pete proposed and she asks him (through subtext IMO) in Affinity 'has anything changed' and he tells her nothing has. She can't leave anymore than he can because they're both equally as important to the program and are at war with the Goa'uld/Replicators but if things were different "I wouldn't be here" - Jack.

She accepts the proposal and Jack finally decides its time to move on. After he thinks she had given up on them and was happy, he started dating Kerry. It was very obvious to Kerry that he was in love with Sam and Sam with him and asked 'Is the military the only thing keeping you two apart?' - rationally who else could she be talking about?

Sam realised she couldn't truly be happy with Pete because she was still very much in love with Jack and couldn't move on from him even if it would end up going no where. It wouldn't be fair to her or Pete. Jack didn't stop Kerry from leaving (or correct her when she said he had feelings for another) for the same reason and so Sam/Jack decided to be there for each other 'Always' at the end of 'Threads'.

Notice, he generally let her steer the direction of their relationship.

In season 9 the Goa'uld/Replicators had been defeated, we see Jack heading up to DC (world of paperwork and bureaucrats) not making him Sam's CO anymore and leaving the door open for a relationship. A "Not exactly" single from Sam in 'Ex Deus Machina', a marriage implied/hinted in '200', 'fishing' as her personal password and the use of "d'oh" in 'Line in the Sand' and a picture of her and Jack fishing on Sam's desk in Atlantis season 4 hinting to an off screen relationship.


If he really loves her and is pretty sure that she loves him back, he should have retired. He retired before. Or, he should come right out and tell her they have no future.

See above.


This episode starts a long run where they just make goo-goo eyes at eachother. It felt rather 90210 to me. When they said "none of this leaves this room" (although at least 3 other people witnessed it) it would seem to imply that they are putting a stop to it. Of course that doesn't happen. Sam is not some hormonal schoolgirl. Jack should be old enough and wise enough to know better.

No they are neither and the fact that their relationship progresses, shows that what they have is not just a crush/infatuation 90210 style but something more.


In Solitudes, nothing was stated, but their affection for eachother was obvious, but they could have gone on denying their feeling for eachother. After Divide and Conquer, everything is out in the open. At the very least, they should have been on different teams.


Only Janet/Teal'c knew from the SGC and they are Sam/Jack's closest friends, I doubt they would tell Hammond, knowing what the consequences would be. It was most likely covered up and therefore they stayed as SG1.


I'm sorry if I've offended shippers.

And nope, no offending here. It's nice to get a discussion going, as I said there is a lot of interpretation and implication. Everyone's PoV is different and its interesting hearing different sides. :)

Mr Prophet
August 15th, 2007, 12:15 AM
Only Janet/Teal'c knew from the SGC and they are Sam/Jack's closest friends, I doubt they would tell Hammond, knowing what the consequences would be. It was most likely covered up and therefore they stayed as SG1.

Do you really think that the CMO of Stargate Command would conceal a prejudice in the chain of command that presents a real threat to the lives of men and women in active service? I've said this before and I'll say it again: fraternization regs are not there for fun and if Jack, Sam and Janet are the military professionals we've been led to believe, they would not have ignored them just so that Jack and Sam could sneak in a few meaningful glances while they wait for their pensions to mature.

If it doesn't have to leave the room, it can't be serious. Either that, or they aren't responsible professionals, but are acting like school kids with a crush.

Nikki
August 15th, 2007, 06:57 AM
Do you really think that the CMO of Stargate Command would conceal a prejudice in the chain of command that presents a real threat to the lives of men and women in active service? I've said this before and I'll say it again: fraternization regs are not there for fun and if Jack, Sam and Janet are the military professionals we've been led to believe, they would not have ignored them just so that Jack and Sam could sneak in a few meaningful glances while they wait for their pensions to mature.

If it doesn't have to leave the room, it can't be serious. Either that, or they aren't responsible professionals, but are acting like school kids with a crush.

But that's the thing, there is no prejudice to conceal. Jack's actions have never endangered the life of any other soldier and he did exactly what he would do, had it been Daniel/Teal'c stuck behind that forcefield but just not for the same reasons. His actions only endangered his own life and he would have done the same for others therefore there was/is no prejudice to conceal just the reason behind Jack's actions, which doesn't matter as it has never adveresly effected his actions/decisions, so there would be nothing to report.

And no, off course not. I believe that when Sam said 'this doesn't have to leave this room' and Jack agreed, they both meant it. They both believed, as did Janet that what they had would end, they'd never be put in the same situation again...but you can't help how you feel. ;)

And if it doesn't leave the room, it can be serious but they just don't want it to be and at the time believed they could move on from it, but as the show progressed we were shown that they couldn't.

jckfan55
August 15th, 2007, 10:23 AM
I was one of those who originally thought this episode resolved the S/J issue. Silly me.

Cascade
August 15th, 2007, 01:13 PM
Falling for a fellow member of military personnel is something that's always going to happen from time to time, in situations like Sam and Jack's. I think it's obvious from various scenes/episodes that Sam and Jack care for each other deeply, but they also care for their respective careers. They've never properly acted on their feelings for one another because of this, thus not making them unprofessional in anyway, IMO. I don't think there's a lot in the scene where Jack and Sam agree that it should never leave the room. Any sort of relationship between them would not only get them sacked most likely, but would also leave them open to jeapordising themselves or others on their team if they managed to conceal a relationship.

I've kind of forgotten what I was wanting to say, but basically, I think in any other sort of situation, Sam and Jack would of gotten together. This episode showed that at the time, it just wasn't really an option. Damn regulations!

VSS
September 20th, 2007, 02:03 PM
i LOVE this episode!! (Shipper all the way!). Except Anise... I just don't like her. She has a wierd mouth, and her head kinda jolts when she talks, it really bugs me. Anyway..

There's a look that S&J share that I totally, totally love that noboadys mentioned.. Just as Jacks being led away to have the "procedure", when Sams about to be drugged, she looks down the corridoor at him and he turns back to look at her, and it kinda goes a bit slow-mo.. That look is just AMAZING, it turns me to jelly!!!

Anise has clearly had a badly botched lip injection procedure. Near the end, she even mangles the word "vulnerable" when describing her own lack of exposure to Go'aulds. It really annoys me. I don't know why they didn't shoot that particular scene again.

I also wonder if Frasier made Carter take a week off after this. Seems to me she'd need it.

haPpy-gO-LuX
November 27th, 2007, 05:05 PM
they shouldnt have killed off martouf :(
he was killed off way to early
i think it would have been cool if they had developed his relationship with sam a little more

chevron3
January 31st, 2008, 04:03 PM
Poor Martouf!!!

silly sally
February 3rd, 2008, 11:30 AM
they shouldnt have killed off martouf :(
he was killed off way to early
i think it would have been cool if they had developed his relationship with sam a little more

I think that's why he was killed to make room for sam&jack ship

Nikki
February 4th, 2008, 11:21 AM
I think that's why he was killed to make room for sam&jack ship

I agree, that was probably part of why they got rid of Martouf but I think the main reason was because they wanted to drop the whole Sam-Joliner arc, which was a shame. I would've loved to have seen Sam experiment with various Tok'ra/Goa'uld devices with the help of Joliner's memories. I mean in S6 and S9/10 they could've had Sam/Jack and Sam/Vala bond over their respective experiences as hosts as well but it's like TPTB didnt want to touch on that storyline again with ten foot barge pole. I hate it when they make something a season storyline when it could easily have been a running storyline. :mckay:

Saying that I'm still pleased that we saw the end of Martouf in D&C, he really creeped me out. :o

JohnDuh
March 21st, 2008, 06:47 AM
But if you're going to kill someone off then the audience have to care.

Or you could try and be a better writer and not kill of people all the time - its such a cheap stunt.

Chaka's_Mum
March 25th, 2008, 04:37 AM
I wouldn't have considered Martouf's death to be a cheap stunt, tbh. It was shocking in that it was Martouf rather than anyone else - it would have been a far cheaper shot had it been one of the Tok'ra entourage. Instead it was the closest Tok'ra ally of all, the one considered to be absolutely unimpeachable. So much so that it never occurred to anyone to put him in front of the za'tarc detector, anyway...

Verona
April 7th, 2008, 12:51 AM
I wouldn't have considered Martouf's death to be a cheap stunt, tbh. It was shocking in that it was Martouf rather than anyone else - it would have been a far cheaper shot had it been one of the Tok'ra entourage. Instead it was the closest Tok'ra ally of all, the one considered to be absolutely unimpeachable. So much so that it never occurred to anyone to put him in front of the za'tarc detector, anyway...

I agree it could not be called a cheap stunt when they killed off poor Marty,
However I don't agree with your opinion that he was the closest Tok'ra,
what about Jacob?

Chaka's_Mum
May 1st, 2008, 12:11 AM
True - but I guess I'm looking at it from the point of view of Martouf being the most receptive Tok'ra to the concept of an alliance with us at the outset, despite having no previous encounters with the Tauri. Obviously there was some ulterior motive in this, being that Sam was Jolinar's final host, but he was the one who looked deeper and saw further than his fellows at a time of real and understandable distrust.

Jacob, on the other hand - not to discount his importance, because he is important - came into the equation as someone who was already Tauri. Selmak has picked up on that and the two of them occupy a kind of 'grey area' in that they are both Tauri and Tok'ra. I tend not to see him as an ally in the strictest sense because, being Tauri, his support of our interests comes from the fact that, essentially, he is still a Tauri to some degree and there is a level of moral obligation upon him and Selmak to fight our corner. He's a bit higher up the scale in that regard as he has a foot in both camps that kind of transcends the concept of alliance.

Splitting hairs, I know! But I was looking at it in the sense that - to some extent Martouf has a stronger degree of separation from us which makes the term 'ally' more applicable to him than Jacob. I could, of course, be talking total cobblers, too. That's a habit of mine.

I guess I also tend to think these things through a bit more deeply than I should...:S

madaboutdanny
May 1st, 2008, 01:49 AM
I think that's why he was killed to make room for sam&jack ship

True, so they can delude the fans for another 6 years....:rolleyes:

silly sally
May 1st, 2008, 07:13 AM
True, so they can delude the fans for another 6 years....:rolleyes:

It's what TPTB do! :mad:

Melora
May 1st, 2008, 08:09 AM
True, so they can delude the fans for another 6 years....:rolleyes:


…or to tick off the anti-sam/jack fans for another seven years. :P


Personally, I have never felt deluded for liking the SJ ship. I’m sure some shippers have and I’m sorry they feel that way. I feel even more sorry for all the anti-ship people who still get angry or annoyed about it. It would be nice if TPTB could make all the various fan groups happy, but they can’t. :(

I personally still rank D+C as one of my favorite episodes. Martin Wood did an excellent job directing it.

silly sally
May 1st, 2008, 08:14 AM
…or to tick off the anti-sam/jack fans for another seven years. :P


Personally, I have never felt deluded for liking the SJ ship. I’m sure some shippers have and I’m sorry they feel that way. I feel even more sorry for all the anti-ship people who still get angry or annoyed about it. It would be nice if TPTB could make all the various fan groups happy, but they can’t. :(

I personally still rank D+C as one of my favorite episodes. Martin Wood did an excellent job directing it.

Oh come on TPTB have been doing the 'carrot and stick' routine to us SJ shippers for years... :mad:

Melora
May 1st, 2008, 08:22 AM
I think that's why he was killed to make room for sam&jack ship

That might very well have been part of it. I also suspect they were getting rid of him to make room for Anise. I think the studio wanted her to become the main Tok'ra contact for the SGC along with Jacob. They also wanted a Sam/Jack/Anise love triangle in Season 5. With Martouf still around it might have made it too confusing - a love quadrangle instead of a triangle.

Anise was originally supposed to be in more than three episodes and she was supposed to become a regular character in Season 5. The actress got pregnant and couldn't commit to the series. Unfortunately, they had already killed off Martouf by that point. :(

madaboutdanny
May 1st, 2008, 08:40 AM
Anise was originally supposed to be in more than three episodes and she was supposed to become a regular character in Season 5. The actress got pregnant and couldn't commit to the series. Unfortunately, they had already killed off Martouf by that point. :(
Can we thanks her husband?

Melora
May 1st, 2008, 08:49 AM
Oh come on TPTB have been doing the 'carrot and stick' routine to us SJ shippers for years... :mad:


Yes they have. :)


I'm not arguing that. I just have a different philosophy on this than you. I don't feel deceived or deluded. I enjoy what TPTB have written over the years between Sam and Jack - especially in the episode in question. If they never give the shippers any resolution, I will be content in the fact that I have enjoyed a storyline that lasted for over ten years. I will go back and watch the episodes, like D+C, from Seasons 1-8 and enjoy all of things I fell in love with about the show (including the ship).

But I prefer to be grateful for what I have than to get upset or angry over what I don't and may never have. I used to get all bent out of shape about the lack of ship resolution and how much I disliked the show after Season 8. But I realized that it was only making me hate something that I once loved. So now I try to enjoy what I love about the show and to not let the other parts that I don't care for get to me. There are things I still don't like, but I choose to focus on the things I do like. Why should I give TPTB or other fans the power to make me angry and tarnish the joy I have for something I love?

I'm sorry that some fans get upset and I do wish TPTB could give them what they want. But they can't please everyone and I accept that.

longhorn21
May 16th, 2008, 06:39 PM
One of my faves because of the confession. I'm serious, me and my mom like jumped up and were like " YES!!!!"

Inquisitor
June 11th, 2008, 09:05 AM
The one thing i did not understand with this episode is, why check with the memory scanner, when all they had to do was check if they had the goauld weapon on them?

captain jake
July 1st, 2008, 02:41 AM
This was a good episode, definitely the best Tok'ra episode of the first half of this season. Ever since Divide and Conquer, we only get temporary individuals to represent the Tok'ra. It begins with Anise leaving after this episode, but in future seasons you can see what I mean. I wonder why they didn't stick with Martouf, does anybody know why TPTB might have decided to kill him off?


The one thing i did not understand with this episode is, why check with the memory scanner, when all they had to do was check if they had the goauld weapon on them?

Well I think it's rather obvious that such a device could be hidden extremely well. I have no doubt that the Tok'ra and the SGC searched for the device, but came up empty handed. Did you see how it folded out? Perhaps that was only one stage of the expansion, maybe it could be reduced to the size of a small ring or something like that.

L E E
July 11th, 2008, 06:27 AM
forgive my shallowness but i don't like carter's hair. too messy for me. also, anise's outfits. is this really how tokra females dress? i don't think so. there's no need to dress anise so sluttily. the character was interesting enough.

ship? i am neither for or against it. i just don't like it to be obvious. or what others said, forced on me.

i'm not too fond of the tokra, but i kinda like martouf. why'd he have to die?

jack's reaction to freya's advances is very amusing. and the scene when he told daniel about it is even more so.

HelloVelo
July 11th, 2008, 03:42 PM
The scenes with Lieutenant Astor always get me.

Rating: 9/10

Full Review: http://stargatesummer.blogspot.com/2008/07/divide-and-conquer.html

Anda
September 19th, 2008, 12:24 PM
I know, I thought this episode was so cool!!!!

Because Jack and Sam finally have to admit that their relationship is a little deeper.
It was sooo sad when Martouf died though.

yes it is very cool.In specialy when carter is sedated and she dreams whit jack and the real truth,and then when she gors and tell him about this

:love:

Verdande
October 26th, 2008, 09:34 AM
I did like the episode. Being new to SG-1 though, and watching this episode for the first time - I'm not so sure I liked where it's going.

I do get that they love each other, and it was a very good scene where O'Neill admitted to caring about Carter more than he was supposed to. Very moving and well acted. But I'm still not sure whether I think it's a good idea. I guess I'm a little anxious about what will happen next.

I'm not looking to be spoiled here, and even though I haven't seen any future episodes, I obviously know that they'll both stay on SG-1 for years to come. But I really hope this won't be a major plot or storyline throughout the next seasons. I love the whole team, and I can't see how the team will work if the dynamics change drastically. So yes, I do feel a little apprehensive about all this.

Melora
October 26th, 2008, 04:34 PM
I did like the episode. Being new to SG-1 though, and watching this episode for the first time - I'm not so sure I liked where it's going.

I do get that they love each other, and it was a very good scene where O'Neill admitted to caring about Carter more than he was supposed to. Very moving and well acted. But I'm still not sure whether I think it's a good idea. I guess I'm a little anxious about what will happen next.

I'm not looking to be spoiled here, and even though I haven't seen any future episodes, I obviously know that they'll both stay on SG-1 for years to come. But I really hope this won't be a major plot or storyline throughout the next seasons. I love the whole team, and I can't see how the team will work if the dynamics change drastically. So yes, I do feel a little apprehensive about all this.

IMO, the relationship between Jack and Sam never overshadows the team or any of the other characters in any of the seasons. I'm a shipper though. Anti-shippers have a completely different perspective on this issue. It all depends on how sensitive about the ship you are. If you hate it with a passion, you are probably going to feel there is way too much focus on it all the way to the end of Season 8. If you don't like it but can tolerate it, you can probably ignore most of the references to it and still really enjoy the show. If you like it but also really like team episodes, you will probably be happy with how the writers handled it.

In Season 4, there are probably the most episodes that deal with their relationship and their feelings. When watching some of the episodes later in the season, you might even feel that the ship is a bit too blatant. Just be patient. The writers pretty much move on from it in Seasons 5, 6, and most of Season 7. There are just a few little remarks and hints here and there in those seasons, but nothing too over the top.

In the latter part of Season 7 and in Season 8, there are more references and stories based around the relationship. Again, I personally think that it never interfered with the stories or the focus on the other characters and team. But if you are sensitive about the ship, you might not like these two seasons as much. There are still plenty of Daniel, Teal'c, and team eps in these seasons.

There are only a couple of references to the ship in Seasons 9 and 10, but then there is another ship that was introduced between Daniel and Vala.

I think you will still enjoy the show and where it is going. Unless you absolutely hate the relationship for some reason, you will either enjoy most of the hints and references or you can ignore them for the most part. :)

Verdande
October 28th, 2008, 05:43 AM
If you like it but also really like team episodes, you will probably be happy with how the writers handled it.

Melora, thank you for a great and unspoilery review of the status of the ship throughout the series, you actually managed to reassure me a little as to where this is heading.

It's not so much that I'm an anti-shipper, but I'm not really sure that I'm a shipper either. I’m a little surprised that I enjoy the series as much as I find myself doing, and I think a lot of my enjoyment comes from the characters and the increasingly textured relationships between them. The technology, mythology, explosions, and science never quite grip me the same way. ;)

And I really don’t know what I would see as a good solution for Carter and O'Neill as things are right now, I really do like the characters and I sympathize with the hopelessness of their situation. I guess that as long as the fundamental friendship, loyalty and trust between all the team members, isn’t overshadowed by O’Neill and Carter’s romantic feelings for each other, I can enjoy that part of their relationship too.

gateship15
October 29th, 2008, 12:29 AM
i like this episode the feelings between O'Neil and Samantha most entertaining i also love the fact that because they both didn't want others to know of there feelings for each other subconsciously they were thought to be the enemy.

leiasky
October 29th, 2008, 08:54 AM
Verdande, have you watched from Season 1 on, in order? You'll find that, with a few exceptions, that you'll be able to watch the episodes and not see any sort of ship between them at all. The exceptions being the episodes that dealt directly with those feelings, or the hiding of them.

I'm definitely eager to hear your opinion as you get further into the seasons:)

Anda
October 29th, 2008, 11:28 AM
One of my faves because of the confession. I'm serious, me and my mom like jumped up and were like " YES!!!!"

Yes I did it too.The confesion scene was cool:love::indeed:

leiasky
October 29th, 2008, 11:37 AM
It would have been interesting to see what kind of fallout there was from the confession. Teal'c and Dr. Frasier witnessed it. And the Doc would be concerned about the regs, yes? She seemed to be in '100 days' when she asked if this concern Sam had over finding Jack was 'going to be a problem'.

Verdande
October 29th, 2008, 11:54 AM
Verdande, have you watched from Season 1 on, in order? You'll find that, with a few exceptions, that you'll be able to watch the episodes and not see any sort of ship between them at all. The exceptions being the episodes that dealt directly with those feelings, or the hiding of them.

leiasky, yes I have watched from Season 1 on, in order. I'm up to Window of Opportunity right now. And I do agree with you that in the episodes so far, with a few exceptions, the episodes can be watched without any noticeable ship between O'Neill and Carter.

Being new to the fandom, though, I find myself needing to know more of the basic terms. What constitute shippers and anti-shippers in the Stargate fandom? Is a shipper someone who thinks Carter and O'Neill should have a romantic relationship, or is it enough to believe that Carter and O'Neill have romantic feelings for each other? (Or would that be canon?)

As for the relationship between O'Neill and Carter, I thought the series quickly established that they were attracted to each other (Broca Divide, Brief Candle, Out of mind). It also established that O'Neill and Carter had strong feelings for each other (Solitudes), but not necessarily romantic feelings. And the development into a more romantic attraction between O'Neill and Carter has been fairly well done in my opinion. Although I did think they were a bit overly coy with the alternate realities and alternate versions of Carter and O'Neill, and their alternate romantic feelings for each other. This previous coyness was probably one of the reasons I was surprised by how openly Divide and Conquer talked about the strong feelings between O'Neill and Carter.

The first time I realized that Carter was in love with O'Neill was in A hundred days, from the scene with Carter and Dr. Fraiser in Carter's lab. But I guess the fun is that we all interpret these things differently, right? And I do think I can enjoy some flirting and romantic feelings between Carter and O'Neill, as long as it doesn't take away from the characters, or their relationships with each other or with the other members of the team.

And you, where are you on the whole shipper vs. anti-shipper dimension? :)

Verdande
October 29th, 2008, 12:00 PM
It would have been interesting to see what kind of fallout there was from the confession. Teal'c and Dr. Frasier witnessed it. And the Doc would be concerned about the regs, yes? She seemed to be in '100 days' when she asked if this concern Sam had over finding Jack was 'going to be a problem'.

But is the fact that O'Neill 'cares for Carter, a lot more than he's supposed to', the same as breaking the "regs"?

Interesting that you bring up the scene in Hundred Days, I interpreted Fraiser's question as concern for Carter's feelings. But you're completely right, it could also have been about the "regs".

EvenstarSRV
October 29th, 2008, 12:52 PM
Being new to the fandom, though, I find myself needing to know more of the basic terms. What constitute shippers and anti-shippers in the Stargate fandom? Is a shipper someone who thinks Carter and O'Neill should have a romantic relationship, or is it enough to believe that Carter and O'Neill have romantic feelings for each other? (Or would that be canon?)

As for the relationship between O'Neill and Carter, I thought the series quickly established that they were attracted to each other (Broca Divide, Brief Candle, Out of mind). It also established that O'Neill and Carter had strong feelings for each other (Solitudes), but not necessarily romantic feelings. And the development into a more romantic attraction between O'Neill and Carter has been fairly well done in my opinion. Although I did think they were a bit overly coy with the alternate realities and alternate versions of Carter and O'Neill, and their alternate romantic feelings for each other. This previous coyness was probably one of the reasons I was surprised by how openly Divide and Conquer talked about the strong feelings between O'Neill and Carter.

The first time I realized that Carter was in love with O'Neill was in A hundred days, from the scene with Carter and Dr. Fraiser in Carter's lab. But I guess the fun is that we all interpret these things differently, right? And I do think I can enjoy some flirting and romantic feelings between Carter and O'Neill, as long as it doesn't take away from the characters, or their relationships with each other or with the other members of the team.

And you, where are you on the whole shipper vs. anti-shipper dimension? :)

Hope you guys don't mind my jumping in here, but I'm really enjoying this discussion. :o :)

I'm pretty new to fandom myself, although I've been watching Stargate for a couple of years now, so terms like shipper/anti-shipper were new to me as well. Although my viewing of Stargate so far as been wildly out of order (ie seeing Unending before Children of the Gods :eek: :)), I also think that the development of the relationship between Carter and O'Neill has been handled pretty well.

I kinda consider myself to be more of a non-shipper, rather than pro or anti, in that I don't really have a personal preference of whether Sam and Jack should be together. As long as their relationship seems to progress naturally and realistically to me, and like you said doesn't overshadow other aspects of the show that I enjoy, then I'm pretty happy with how it's been portrayed.

On the topic of this episode, while I enjoyed the Carter/O'Neill za'tarc storyline, the most memorable part of the episode for me was the ending with Sam granting Martouf his final wish by killing him. I found it very tragic and it actually led me to become a fan of the show rather than just a casual viewer. :)

leiasky
October 29th, 2008, 01:32 PM
But I guess the fun is that we all interpret these things differently, right? And I do think I can enjoy some flirting and romantic feelings between Carter and O'Neill, as long as it doesn't take away from the characters, or their relationships with each other or with the other members of the team.

That's really the crux of the conversation right there. Everyone who sees the episodes (preferably in order so one can see how the relationship/interactions progress) interprets things differently. I enjoyed how it was done in the show and even got very frustrated during some years when it seems the tension/angst had been forgotten completely. You'll find that the team gets close and their friendships are stronger for it - until Season 8 when Jack has to make some decisions about the safety of the SGC as a whole while risking the lives of SG1. It's all very angsty, and at the very center of that are Sam and Jack and their feelings that they've pushed aside because of duty.



And you, where are you on the whole shipper vs. anti-shipper dimension? :)

I love how their relationship is progressed and am most definitely in the shipper realm. How you define a shipper, well, I think that's probably dependent on the individual so its not an easy question for me to answer. There ARE some Sam and Jack threads on GW if you want to take a look through them.

Finger13
October 29th, 2008, 01:33 PM
leiasky, yes I have watched from Season 1 on, in order. I'm up to Window of Opportunity right now. And I do agree with you that in the episodes so far, with a few exceptions, the episodes can be watched without any noticeable ship between O'Neill and Carter.

Being new to the fandom, though, I find myself needing to know more of the basic terms. What constitute shippers and anti-shippers in the Stargate fandom? Is a shipper someone who thinks Carter and O'Neill should have a romantic relationship, or is it enough to believe that Carter and O'Neill have romantic feelings for each other? (Or would that be canon?)

As for the relationship between O'Neill and Carter, I thought the series quickly established that they were attracted to each other (Broca Divide, Brief Candle, Out of mind). It also established that O'Neill and Carter had strong feelings for each other (Solitudes), but not necessarily romantic feelings. And the development into a more romantic attraction between O'Neill and Carter has been fairly well done in my opinion. Although I did think they were a bit overly coy with the alternate realities and alternate versions of Carter and O'Neill, and their alternate romantic feelings for each other. This previous coyness was probably one of the reasons I was surprised by how openly Divide and Conquer talked about the strong feelings between O'Neill and Carter.

The first time I realized that Carter was in love with O'Neill was in A hundred days, from the scene with Carter and Dr. Fraiser in Carter's lab. But I guess the fun is that we all interpret these things differently, right? And I do think I can enjoy some flirting and romantic feelings between Carter and O'Neill, as long as it doesn't take away from the characters, or their relationships with each other or with the other members of the team.

And you, where are you on the whole shipper vs. anti-shipper dimension? :)

Yes, a shipper is someone who wants to either see feelings between characters, or want actual relationships. The term could mean other things, like jokes between two incompatible characters, but they are typically between individuals in the series where a relationship could very well be possible, or may even exist just isn't mentioned. So there are the classic Jack and Sam shippers, or Daniel and Vala shippers (those two were the most obvious in SG-1, along with perhaps Sam and Orlin). In SGA there are Rodney and Jennifer shippers, Shepperd and Weir shippers (ha, their hopes were crushed), Shepperd and Teyla shippers, Ronan and Jennifer shippers, the list is endless.

Shippers and anti-shippers tend to bend certain scenes to fit their assumptions, and speculate about various scenes and such. So something that may seem completely innocuous to you or me might be blatant proof of a relationship or feelings to another viewer.

But unless it comes right out in the open, like for instance with Rodney and Ronan both liking Jennifer on SGA, then it's all speculation, however founded or unfounded the assumptions may be.

I was personally never a shipper for anyone, but some people find enjoyment in it.

If you do watch Atlantis, there's even Todd and Mr. Woolsey shippers after seeing The Lost Tribe hahahaha :P.

leiasky
October 29th, 2008, 01:34 PM
But is the fact that O'Neill 'cares for Carter, a lot more than he's supposed to', the same as breaking the "regs"?

Interesting that you bring up the scene in Hundred Days, I interpreted Fraiser's question as concern for Carter's feelings. But you're completely right, it could also have been about the "regs".

The regs are a grey area in which the writers respected the AF enough not to allow the characters to break the regs, but the actual true MEANING of said AF regs could be worked around to give those characters a chance to be together. But this is television (and now film) and keeping that tension and angst is what sells.

Melora
October 29th, 2008, 01:43 PM
Being new to the fandom, though, I find myself needing to know more of the basic terms. What constitute shippers and anti-shippers in the Stargate fandom? Is a shipper someone who thinks Carter and O'Neill should have a romantic relationship, or is it enough to believe that Carter and O'Neill have romantic feelings for each other? (Or would that be canon?)

The whole shipper/anti-shipper debate is a very complex one in this fandom. For a long time, there was a lot of tension over this very issue and you still see the more zealous anti-shippers and shippers still fighting about it here and there. In fact, “Divide and Conquer” was actually the episode that started the great ship wars between anti-shippers and shippers. From what I’ve read, it got pretty ugly on both sides for a while.

Anyhow, this is how I would define the different points of view on the ship issue:

Shippers: I would say that shippers are those fans who like the romantic relationship between Carter and O’Neill and like to see how it plays out on screen. Some are more passionate about it than others. The passionate shippers are the fans who demand nothing less than a confirmation that Carter and O’Neill are together in some form (dating, married, having babies, etc.).

However, there are other shippers who are okay with how the ship has been presented and enjoy it for what it is. For example, I do not need confirmation even though I think it would be nice to have in the end. I differ from a “canon” fan in that the ship is probably the thing I find most enjoyable about the show and I started watching because of it.

“Canon” fans: I would say these are the fans who see and acknowledge the romantic feelings between the two characters, but who prefer other aspects of the show more. They don’t hate the relationship, but prefer to watch the show for other reasons. These fans have been happy with the way the writers handled the ship for the most part because it was mostly kept in the background. I would include most non-shippers in this group.

Anti-Shippers: Just like with the shippers, there are also many types of anti-shippers.

Some dislike the ship b/c they don’t like romantic storylines on a sci-fi show. Those fans are the “noromos.” They believe any hints of romance turn the show into a soap opera.

Then there are the fans who see the romantic feelings between the two characters and dislike how it is depicted. Many of these fans feel that the ship detracts from the storylines of the other characters and the “team” feeling of the show. Sometimes they even feel that the writers make the two characters act "out of character" to cater to those fans who like the ship.

Then there are those who deny that there is a ship. They believe the romantic feelings between Carter and O’Neill are completely one-sided and not returned. In the eyes of these fans, Carter is like a simpering school-girl with a ridiculous crush on her superior officer. In many of these fans’ opinions, not only does O’Neill not return her feelings, he also doesn’t really like her on a personal level. Of course these same fans seem to think Carter should be court-martialed for the numerous incompetent acts she has committed, so I’ll let you come to your own conclusions about that.


Of course, this is a bit of an oversimplification of the issue. There are other fans who have slightly different takes on this on both sides. The interesting thing is that if you ask the more zealous anti-shippers or shippers for their definitions, you will get completely different answers. ;)

For example, some anti-shippers feel that if you like or tolerate any hint of the ship, it makes you a shipper. Some shippers think if you dislike the idea of Jack and Sam getting married and having babies, then you are not a shipper. It can sometimes be very confusing. :S


I hope you enjoy the rest of the series and that the ship never feels too heavy-handed for you. I don’t think this will happen, but you never know. :)

leiasky
October 29th, 2008, 02:22 PM
On second thought, you may want to stay out of the shipper /anti - threads until you've watched the whole series. Make your OWN conclusion based on what you saw, and then step into the threads if you want. It really is a whole new ball of wax!

Verdande
October 30th, 2008, 02:27 AM
Although my viewing of Stargate so far as been wildly out of order (ie seeing Unending before Children of the Gods :eek: :)), I also think that the development of the relationship between Carter and O'Neill has been handled pretty well.

On the topic of this episode, while I enjoyed the Carter/O'Neill za'tarc storyline, the most memorable part of the episode for me was the ending with Sam granting Martouf his final wish by killing him. I found it very tragic and it actually led me to become a fan of the show rather than just a casual viewer. :)

Evenstar, I did watch a few Stargate episodes out of order too, somewhere around late season 5 and early season 6, before I began watching. I got curious about the show after seeing a couple of really good episodes (I especially remember Abyss) and I liked the humor a lot, so I decided to watch the entire series, starting at the beginning. I haven’t been spoiled for anything really important so far, I think.

Are you planning on watching the series in order too?

I have to admit that my attention was mostly focused on Carter and O’Neill in Divide and Conquer, but yes, it was sad to see Martouf die. I never really got into the Jolinar storyline all that much, but Martouf definitely didn’t seem as duplicitous as some of the other Tok’ra we've seen.

Verdande
October 30th, 2008, 02:29 AM
The regs are a grey area in which the writers respected the AF enough not to allow the characters to break the regs, but the actual true MEANING of said AF regs could be worked around to give those characters a chance to be together. But this is television (and now film) and keeping that tension and angst is what sells.

leiasky, as for the regs and keeping the tension on television – I totally get it. Forbidden love has always been a good plot device! :)


On second thought, you may want to stay out of the shipper /anti - threads until you've watched the whole series. Make your OWN conclusion based on what you saw, and then step into the threads if you want. It really is a whole new ball of wax!

I do agree with you, I think I’ll stay away from the shipper/anti-shipper threads on the forum. So far I’m mainly staying in the episode discussion threads for episodes I’ve already seen. I really enjoy being ‘mostly unspoiled’.

Verdande
October 30th, 2008, 02:30 AM
Shippers and anti-shippers tend to bend certain scenes to fit their assumptions, and speculate about various scenes and such. So something that may seem completely innocuous to you or me might be blatant proof of a relationship or feelings to another viewer.

Finger13, I totally get that. Everybody interprets scenes differently, especially when feelings and intentions aren’t expressed directly and openly.

It’s what makes life on the forum interesting, I guess… :)

Verdande
October 30th, 2008, 02:34 AM
Melora, thank you again for your thorough summary of the shipper/anti-shipper debate. And after watching Divide and Conquer, I’m not surprised to hear that it was the episode that started a lot of the controversy.


However, there are other shippers who are okay with how the ship has been presented and enjoy it for what it is. For example, I do not need confirmation even though I think it would be nice to have in the end. I differ from a “canon” fan in that the ship is probably the thing I find most enjoyable about the show and I started watching because of it.

It’s nice to hear where you place yourself in this dimension . If you started watching because of the ship, that would mean that you didn’t watch the show from the beginning? About where in the series (and ship) did you first start watching?


Then there are those who deny that there is a ship. They believe the romantic feelings between Carter and O’Neill are completely one-sided and not returned. In the eyes of these fans, Carter is like a simpering school-girl with a ridiculous crush on her superior officer. In many of these fans’ opinions, not only does O’Neill not return her feelings, he also doesn’t really like her on a personal level. Of course these same fans seem to think Carter should be court-martialed for the numerous incompetent acts she has committed, so I’ll let you come to your own conclusions about that.

Really???? :samanime24:


I hope you enjoy the rest of the series and that the ship never feels too heavy-handed for you. I don’t think this will happen, but you never know. :)

I hope so too, and I’m glad I found you guys at GW. It’s a lot more interesting to watch Stargate when I can discuss these things with other fans. Other fans with insight and interesting viewpoints, no less.

EvenstarSRV
October 30th, 2008, 05:39 AM
Evenstar, I did watch a few Stargate episodes out of order too, somewhere around late season 5 and early season 6, before I began watching. I got curious about the show after seeing a couple of really good episodes (I especially remember Abyss) and I liked the humor a lot, so I decided to watch the entire series, starting at the beginning. I haven’t been spoiled for anything really important so far, I think.

I didn't start watching Stargate until my boyfriend (a huge fan) finally convinced me to give it a try a couple of years ago by showing me Heroes and Window of Opportunity. I was intrigued enough to starting watching the reruns on Scifi, and fell for the series soon after for it's mix of humor, science, history, and great characters.


Are you planning on watching the series in order too?

I would really like to start watching it from the beginning, but I just can't afford the DVDs right now, and really don't have the time while in school. I already spend too much time on Gateworld as it is. :o

I didn't start watching the show regularly until the season 10, so that and Atlantis's seasons 4 and 5 are the only ones I've seen in order. I'm still missing several episodes from SG-1, including some big ones like Abyss and Torment of Tantalus. One day I'll watch them all in order, I hope. :)


I have to admit that my attention was mostly focused on Carter and O’Neill in Divide and Conquer, but yes, it was sad to see Martouf die. I never really got into the Jolinar storyline all that much, but Martouf definitely didn’t seem as duplicitous as some of the other Tok’ra we've seen.

In the Line of Duty, The Tok'ra, and Jolinar's Memories/The Devil You Know are some of my favorite episodes, and I love the Jolinar storyline, so that part of the episode grabbed me as much as the Carter/O'Neill part. It was actually the impetus for me to first enter online fandom (for any show), since I really wanted to find some fanfic that dealt with the fallout from that final scene. It took me another year or so to finally join the GW forum. :)

leiasky
October 30th, 2008, 07:07 AM
[B] It’s a lot more interesting to watch Stargate when I can discuss these things with other fans. Other fans with insight and interesting viewpoints, no less.


I espectially love the different interpretations of the same scene. What one person saw or thought something meant, someone else interpreted the scene differently. I love that!

leiasky
October 30th, 2008, 07:15 AM
I would really like to start watching it from the beginning, but I just can't afford the DVDs right now, and really don't have the time while in school. I already spend too much time on Gateworld as it is. :o

Try your local library. Many of them have large dvd sections that may have the box sets.


I didn't start watching the show regularly until the season 10, so that and Atlantis's seasons 4 and 5 are the only ones I've seen in order. I'm still missing several episodes from SG-1, including some big ones like Abyss and Torment of Tantalus. One day I'll watch them all in order, I hope. :)

Wow. You missed ALL the good stuff. Seasons 9 and 10 were ho hum and didn't really hold much of a candle (with exception of very few episodes) to seasons 1-8. The cast changes really hurt the show, I think.

Have you been watching the re-runs on sci-fi? Did you like 'Heroes'? I can't imagine watching that episode if I hadn't seen all the ones before it! The two you mention above not having seen are very good episodes as well! I think I'll pop into those threads and see if you're all discussing them! Since this is the D&C folder . . . lol!

Speaking of D&C, did you catch that the Sam and Jack pining on the Gou'uld ship scenes were different than in the episode before it?

I liked Martouf as well, though I didn't like him confusing Sam like he did with the Jolinar feelings and such. But then, it wouldn't be good tv if it didn't have that kind of angst.

EvenstarSRV
October 30th, 2008, 06:58 PM
Try your local library. Many of them have large dvd sections that may have the box sets.

I've got netflix, so I'm planning on watching some over winter break. :)


Wow. You missed ALL the good stuff. Seasons 9 and 10 were ho hum and didn't really hold much of a candle (with exception of very few episodes) to seasons 1-8. The cast changes really hurt the show, I think.

I enjoyed several episodes from season 10, but only a few from season 9. The Ori never really interested me as an enemy nor did the search for the Sangraal, and there wasn't really any other storyline I could get into in those seasons. On the whole I like the SG-1 team of seasons 1-7 the best.


Have you been watching the re-runs on sci-fi? Did you like 'Heroes'? I can't imagine watching that episode if I hadn't seen all the ones before it! The two you mention above not having seen are very good episodes as well! I think I'll pop into those threads and see if you're all discussing them! Since this is the D&C folder . . . lol!

Well, when I first started watching Scifi was running 5 reruns a week plus 4 extra episodes on Mondays, so I've seen most the episodes that way. But I also found a website with of all the transcripts, so I've read most of the episodes that I haven't seen yet.

I really enjoyed Heroes, the whole documentary style gave me quick backgrounds on the characters, and I think it is a great showcase for Stargate's mix of humor and drama.


Speaking of D&C, did you catch that the Sam and Jack pining on the Gou'uld ship scenes were different than in the episode before it?

I did and it confused me a bit the first time I saw it. I had to go check the Upgrades transcript to make sure I hadn't somehow missed a huge part of the forcefield scene. :o


I liked Martouf as well, though I didn't like him confusing Sam like he did with the Jolinar feelings and such. But then, it wouldn't be good tv if it didn't have that kind of angst.

I actually really liked how confused Sam got about Jolinar's feelings, because I liked seeing the fallout from her brief possession. As a scientist who must have a lot of her self-worth and confidence wrapped up in the power of her mind, it must have been very difficult for Sam to deal with the chaos of Jolinar's flashes of memories and feelings.

That's what makes the ending of this episode so tragic for me, because I'd like to think that it's not just Sam grieving for Martouf, but she's probably also being hit with Jolinar's memories of him, as if she's grieving for two people.

Melora
November 1st, 2008, 12:29 PM
Melora, thank you again for your thorough summary of the shipper/anti-shipper debate. And after watching Divide and Conquer, I’m not surprised to hear that it was the episode that started a lot of the controversy.

It’s nice to hear where you place yourself in this dimension . If you started watching because of the ship, that would mean that you didn’t watch the show from the beginning? About where in the series (and ship) did you first start watching?

I watched a few episodes early on in syndication, mainly because I liked the original movie and I liked MacGyver and wanted to see what RDA was up to. I stopped watching pretty quickly b/c it just didn't catch my attention enough for me to keep track of what channel it was on and when. A few years later, I caught one or two episodes on SciFi, but I didn't watch regularly and was not really a fan of the show.

That changed in the second half of Season 7. I happened to see an ad for the episode "Grace" and was intrigued because it hinted that there was a relationship between Jack and Carter that I had not realized was there. I watched the ep and was very impressed with it and Amanda Tapping's performance. So I continued watching, I got online and researched the show and fandom, and became a huge fan. I then watched every Monday night marathon, caught eps in syndication, and bought some of the boxed sets. Soon I had watched every single episode and had fallen in love with the whole team.

So I became a fan b/c of "Grace" and the ship between Sam and Jack. I would not have tuned in or given the show much of a chance had it not been for that episode. I would also have not stuck around had it not been for the ongoing exploration of the Sam/Jack relationship, as I find it added depth to the characters and the show. "Grace" is still one of my favorites, as is "Divide and Conquer."

It will be interesting to hear what you think of the rest of Season 4. :)

Verdande
November 2nd, 2008, 11:25 AM
So I became a fan b/c of "Grace" and the ship between Sam and Jack. I would not have tuned in or given the show much of a chance had it not been for that episode. I would also have not stuck around had it not been for the ongoing exploration of the Sam/Jack relationship, as I find it added depth to the characters and the show. "Grace" is still one of my favorites, as is "Divide and Conquer."

It seems I have Grace to look forward to, I've already heard it mentioned several times. So far, and I just watched Beneath the Surface, I really like that they manage to be subtle and low-key about the romantic feelings between Carter and O'Neill. I really like that those feelings are just another extra layer in the relationship between them, it's not what suddenly defines who they are to each other. I think that was one of the things I feared would happen after Divide and Conquer.

I'm probably scarred for life by watching The X-files. I was a fan the first 7 seasons, but never a shipper. I loved that Mulder and Scully's relationship was so much more than any romantic relationship I had ever seen portrayed on TV. And when they finally made them in to a couple, somewhere late season 8, they did it really, really badly. I hated what they turned Scully into with that whole pregnancy storyline. To this day I pretend that there are only 7 seasons of The X-files, and that the series ended with Requiem.

leiasky
November 2nd, 2008, 11:53 AM
Grace is - difficult to explain. It's very sad in a way, and that episode is a catalyst for a lot of angst to come in the next season. But - its nice to see Carter get it wrong once in a while. . . When you see the episode, go post in that thread so we can chat about it! :)

There is a lot of depth to these characters and that's why I love them so much.

TheDeviant
January 7th, 2009, 10:01 AM
So they end up killing Martouf. That's a real surprise, as he's a major character (for the Tok'ra anyways).

I wonder what Goa'uld programmed them and how he had the intel.

magictrick
January 28th, 2009, 01:57 PM
One of my assumptions was that Martouf was programmed when he was interrogated by Apophis in that one episode when they are all prisoners in Sokar's jail.

medusacascade
February 11th, 2009, 04:05 AM
What happened to Freya after this ep?
She teamed up with Barbarella and they opened a clothes shop 'for the discerning woman' :lol:

Great thread, I cry fountains every time I see Martouf killed, and have to watch 'Ripple Effect' straight away to make myself feel better :) No, I'm not a hero-worshipping teen, but a 42 yr old woman *not sure if that's better or more creepy :confused:* Count me a member/contributor of this thread, guys. We need more like this, I think :D

gateship15
February 11th, 2009, 10:16 PM
this is a fantastic it kept u guessing tile the end. sam and jack looked very uncomfortable saying how they felt about each other but that just added to the story. i was sad when Martouf died. i felt most sorry for sam as she got very close to him

medusacascade
February 13th, 2009, 03:34 AM
I would really like to start watching it from the beginning, but I just can't afford the DVDs right now, and really don't have the time while in school. I already spend too much time on Gateworld as it is. :o
I realise that his is quite an old post, and you may have them by now, but if not, I would recommend eBay. There are companies on there who do the full 10 seasons for $100 inc postage. I own a set myself, and I have 2 American friends, 1 Danish and 1 German friend who have the same sets. They come in a presentation case, which is very nice, and seem to play no problem, on all regions. They are originally from Hong Kong. If you are interested PM me andI'll send you the link.

Divide and Conquer was a very sad episode for me, as we lost Martouf. I agree, he wasn't as 'slippery' as the other Tok'ra (even Jacob and Selmak had their moments) but Lantash should have let him know in advance he was being controlled? I haven't read all the pages of the thread, so I may be repeating someone else, but if Lantash survived to be implanted again, wouldn't he have taken control of Martouf and warned Hammond or Daniel that Martouf had been compromised? I would have liked the character to stay a lot longer, and I think there was a lot more to be explored there?

gateship15
February 14th, 2009, 11:56 PM
would Lantash know if he was taken over if him himself didn't know. if he did i would agree unless there was a safety switch preventing it. i agree i would have liked to see more of him that is why when he came back for a little wile in a later episode i was overjoyed

Dinoman
February 22nd, 2009, 03:38 PM
The confession of Jack's feeling about Sam in this episode is classic, although I'm a bit sad to see Sam's reacting a bit cold and rational to it.

I love the scene of Freya kissing Jack too. I noticed a flash of pink/red on Jack's cheek when Freya is kissing him, so cute!

gateship15
February 22nd, 2009, 09:24 PM
that was a good scene i love his reaction to

leiasky
February 23rd, 2009, 07:21 AM
The confession of Jack's feeling about Sam in this episode is classic, although I'm a bit sad to see Sam's reacting a bit cold and rational to it.

That's part of her personality. He seemed a bit shocked that she wanted to leave it in that room. As if he was prepared to deal with the ramifications of their admission if SHE wanted to. When she didn't, he was ok with tucking it away.


I love the scene of Freya kissing Jack too. I noticed a flash of pink/red on Jack's cheek when Freya is kissing him, so cute!


RDA has pink cheeks a lot. And makeup doesn't always cover it up.

His comment about 'I could blow any minute now' or whatever it was after she kissed him was priceless. He delivered the double entendre with such a straight face I have to wonder how many takes it took.

gateship15
February 23rd, 2009, 11:35 PM
[QUOTE=leiasky;9798123]That's part of her personality. He seemed a bit shocked that she wanted to leave it in that room. As if he was prepared to deal with the ramifications of their admission if SHE wanted to. When she didn't, he was ok with tucking it away.

i agree i think he would have prepared to deal with the ramifications of there admittance of there feelings and was shocked but i think he wouldn't have wanted for the both to get kicked out of the sgc because they both love there job and when she thats why when she asked it to be kept in the room he was willing to let it be even tho after that u could see the feelings were still there and strong

Butlersgate
March 1st, 2009, 07:50 AM
the whole scene with Jack and Sam with the flashback is amazing.

leiasky
March 1st, 2009, 10:00 PM
the whole scene with Jack and Sam with the flashback is amazing.

And the flashback is different than what we actually see in the episode where that scene happened. Upgrades, I think.

gateship15
March 2nd, 2009, 12:18 AM
i don't know but if it was i guess it showed there point of view

Butlersgate
March 2nd, 2009, 12:37 AM
And the flashback is different than what we actually see in the episode where that scene happened. Upgrades, I think.

yeah it doesn't show jack hitting the force field with the staff in upgrades, it does in this one and it shows him shouting NO! when sam says just go to him.

gateship15
March 2nd, 2009, 12:49 AM
oo it does to i should really watch them again

The Stig
April 30th, 2009, 10:18 PM
Bring back marty!

drewandian
May 22nd, 2009, 09:26 PM
yeah it doesn't show jack hitting the force field with the staff in upgrades, it does in this one and it shows him shouting NO! when sam says just go to him.


the flashback IS different...if you watch the show on DVD you can watch it with commentaries and they explain it (unfortunately it's been a while and i can't remember the details)

i LOVE this episode!

MyzteriouZ
June 3rd, 2009, 02:06 PM
So, this was the 1st episode I watched after signing up here (I just recently re-discovered SG-1, used to watch it occasionally when it ran on TV over here a few years back, but now since a month back I have started to watch things more seriously, got S1-4 DVD, and ordering the rest soon :) )

Well, I'm gonna be bold with my 1st post, and say that this episode wasn't my cup of tea, but that is mostly due to 1 reason, and that's the Jack/Sam "thing" at the end. I dunno why, but ever since the 1st episode I saw, that relationship has not gone well with me, maybe it's just cause the writer's went with the oh so usual "you like me, I like you, but this can not be" complicated relationship, with the constant "will they, won't they, have they?" scenarios.

Otherwise it was a decent episode, those Zatarcs were nice, althou again it seems variants of these pop up in almost every sci-fi show (doesn't even be a sci-fi show, just some show like 24) (but I guess this is the thing with most stuff, so didn't bother me)

That it was Martouf that was compromised, was also obvious from pretty early into the episode (at least to me).

So seeing how this forum is like 99% pro Jack/Sam, I think I have done a fairly good job alienating myself from the majority in my 1st post...I usually do that, so pay no attention :P

leiasky
June 4th, 2009, 07:43 AM
You're entitled to your opinion and it was voiced well:) Re-watch the whole series from beginning to end and your opinion may change - or not. Who knows.

I loved the whole episode but I'm also very pro Sam/Jack.

Welcome to GW, in any case! :)

Ashizuri
June 4th, 2009, 08:29 AM
I wouldn't worry too much about alienating people. As long as you voice your opinions without being insulting, everybody here plays nice. I don't actively ship Sam and Jack and I've never run into any problems. The Sam/Jack shippers are a nice, friendly crowd. :)

I quite liked this episode, even though I was sad to see Martouf go. Wasn't a big fan of Anise and her latex costumes, so this being, if I remember correctly, her last episode was a plus for me.

I felt like the Jack/Sam sort of came out of no where (though, admittedly, I'm a bit "ship blind" in this show, so unless it's in your face, no way to escape it, subtlety not included ship like Daniel/Vala or Pete/Sam/Jack in seasons 7/8 I tend to miss it) and the "confession" always struck me as a bit...I don't know, emotionless, on Jack/RDA's part anyway. AT always nails the emotional stuff but sometimes RDA when trying to do romance leaves me a bit cold. Though, the look he gave Sam over his shoulder when he was going to get Anise's cure always makes me go a little bit girly.

Was a HUGE fan of Sam/AT's hair at this point in the show. Huge.
And Janet. I love Janet. Love, love, love her.

leiasky
June 4th, 2009, 08:46 AM
I wouldn't worry too much about alienating people. As long as you voice your opinions without being insulting, everybody here plays nice. I don't actively ship Sam and Jack and I've never run into any problems. The Sam/Jack shippers are a nice, friendly crowd. :)

No one likes a differing opinion forced down ones throat so as long as one stays away from doing that - or the threads that seem to veer in that direction, you'll have a real fun time here! :)


I quite liked this episode, even though I was sad to see Martouf go. Wasn't a big fan of Anise and her latex costumes, so this being, if I remember correctly, her last episode was a plus for me.

I always wondered what happened to her. I liked the character and that the host liked Jack and the Tokra liked Daniel. Or - whichever way it was. She was wonderfully secretive and a not so trustworthy ally which added a good, twisted dimension to the Tokra/ Tauri alliance.

I liked the theme of the show and the inclusion of the Sam/Jack angle had been building for a while and needed to be dealt with head on. Martouf's death just served to show the two of them, after they'd admitted out loud to their feelings, what could happen. Sam was devistated because martouf died - because she retained the feelings and memories of his lover. It was a great comparison to make regarding her feelings for Jack.



I felt like the Jack/Sam sort of came out of no where (though, admittedly, I'm a bit "ship blind" in this show, so unless it's in your face, no way to escape it, subtlety not included ship like Daniel/Vala or Pete/Sam/Jack in seasons 7/8 I tend to miss it) and the "confession" always struck me as a bit...I don't know, emotionless, on Jack/RDA's part anyway. AT always nails the emotional stuff but sometimes RDA when trying to do romance leaves me a bit cold. Though, the look he gave Sam over his shoulder when he was going to get Anise's cure always makes me go a little bit girly.

It's funny to hear a non-shipper say that. Because that's not usually how they feel! LOL! They think it was shoved down their throats and don't like to see it at all even though they know it was there.

But - I'm like you when I first saw the show. I didn't see it either and felt it came out of no-where, but in going back and re-watching could see that it had been building.



Was a HUGE fan of Sam/AT's hair at this point in the show. Huge.
And Janet. I love Janet. Love, love, love her.

I liked the Sam cut from Beneath the Surface a lot! LOL! And Janet. I loved her so much and wish they had killed off another character other than her. She was just so perfectly believable as a medical officer and friend. *wipes away a tear*

Ashizuri
June 4th, 2009, 09:26 AM
I always wondered what happened to her. I liked the character and that the host liked Jack and the Tokra liked Daniel. Or - whichever way it was. She was wonderfully secretive and a not so trustworthy ally which added a good, twisted dimension to the Tokra/ Tauri alliance.

I liked the idea of the character, and I though it was about time we met a Tok'ra who was distinctly different from their host. I could always tell the difference between who was in charge by what was said, not by the voice used, and that was something that I felt was unique to her character(s). I could never tell the difference between Jacob/Selmac the way I could with Anise/Freya. She was perhaps the only Tok'ra who made me appriciate that there were two beings in one body.

I can admit my dislike of the character has more to do with the actress and the Weird Science TV show.


It's funny to hear a non-shipper say that. Because that's not usually how they feel! LOL! They think it was shoved down their throats and don't like to see it at all even though they know it was there.

But - I'm like you when I first saw the show. I didn't see it either and felt it came out of no-where, but in going back and re-watching could see that it had been building.

There were episodes where I though the ship was a bit heavy, but I really never felt that it was forced down my throat or that it was ruining my enjoyment of the show. While I may not ship Sam/Jack, I don't actively dislike it either and I genuinely enjoyed some of the shippy interaction. (The scene between them at the beginning of Nemesis is perhaps my favorite Jack/Sam moment. I adore that scene and all their adorable awkwardness.)

I think, for the most part, Sam/Jack was well written and didn't often distract me from the team, which is why I don't mind it. I started having problems with it in season 7, but that's when I started having problems with the show as a whole, and I blame that more on the new TPTB not knowing how to handle the characters.


I liked the Sam cut from Beneath the Surface a lot! LOL! And Janet. I loved her so much and wish they had killed off another character other than her. She was just so perfectly believable as a medical officer and friend. *wipes away a tear*

Actually, the only time I can think of that I didn't like Sam's hair was when it was super, super short. Like, Jack's hair short.

Janet will always be missed. She was one of those characters that anytime I saw her, the episode was automatically better, regardless of what she was doing.

leiasky
June 4th, 2009, 09:42 AM
I can admit my dislike of the character has more to do with the actress and the Weird Science TV show.


I didn't know her from anything else and have never seen her in anything since stargate! :)



Janet will always be missed. She was one of those characters that anytime I saw her, the episode was automatically better, regardless of what she was doing.

Yeah. Have to agree with you here:)

Ulkesh47
June 5th, 2009, 06:11 AM
Janet will always be missed. She was one of those characters that anytime I saw her, the episode was automatically better, regardless of what she was doing.
Exactly. :D
In this episode specifically, you can see how devastated she is about Sam and Jack's situations. It's wonderfully subtle.

WishIwasJoes
June 5th, 2009, 10:50 AM
I loved this episode it had alot of emotions running high and in full gear. I also loved the way Janet is the wiser and knows whats up with sam and jack. My only complaint is that sam does not say how she feels for jack in such a strong fashion as he does. It makes him seem warmer and more human than her. Also I never cared for her side story with Martouf. On one hand she is a strong woman that can keep herself from being happy with jack yet she cannot fight her blinded feelsing for Martouf. W/E!

leiasky
June 5th, 2009, 12:06 PM
I'd have liked to have heard Sam speak the words as well but we can just assume that she said the same as Jack and in the same concerned tone.

Sam didn't really have 'feelings' for Martouf like with Jack. They were friends. The romantic feelings were those of Jolinar which we can assume she couldn't quite suppress.

drewandian
June 30th, 2009, 11:25 AM
I just watched this ep again for the millionth time, and again I wanted to throw things at the tv! I <3 this ep, BUT when Freya kisses Jack, I can't help but wanna throw things at her!:lol:

The confession makes up for that - when he says he "cares about her a lot more than I should", I get chills every time....

Of course, Sam killing Martouf breaks my heart everytime....

Watching this ep is kinda like having the worst mood swings ever! :D

leiasky
June 30th, 2009, 11:34 AM
Oh, I laugh at Jack's reaction when Freya kisses him. . . and the comment about 'I could blow any minute here' is SUCH a double entendre that I have to laugh every time.

drewandian
June 30th, 2009, 11:51 AM
Oh, I laugh at Jack's reaction when Freya kisses him. . . and the comment about 'I could blow any minute here' is SUCH a double entendre that I have to laugh every time.

it is a great quote! but Freya/Anise always kinda annoyed me and it just ticked me off when she kissed him (or maybe i'm just a little jealous....;))

Alan Wake
July 2nd, 2009, 07:36 PM
Watching this episode now...

That outfit was just way to reviling, I wonder what the writers were thinking. In my opinion this is just a step down from that nude scene in COTG. I'm really glad we didn't see her character again after this episode. She wasn't going anywhere.

suse
July 2nd, 2009, 09:23 PM
Watching this episode now...

That outfit was just way to reviling, I wonder what the writers were thinking. In my opinion this is just a step down from that nude scene in COTG. I'm really glad we didn't see her character again after this episode. She wasn't going anywhere.

The suits above the writers/producers wanted a 7 of 9 type character on Stargate. Her clothing got more revealing in each ep. :S

<sigh> at the idiocy of some ideas

Alan Wake
July 2nd, 2009, 10:43 PM
The suits above the writers/producers wanted a 7 of 9 type character on Stargate. Her clothing got more revealing in each ep. :S

<sigh> at the idiocy of some ideas

Yes, I guess it's a good thing she didn't appear in anymore episodes... she might not have had anything on in the next appearance. :eek:

Pic
September 3rd, 2009, 04:46 AM
ah, the super-shippy episode. (well, one of them at any rate). Freya's attempt at seduction was horrible. Do you think she sat down and thought about it beforehand?
"Hm, I think I'll wait until I've targeted him as a brainwashed agent and they've locked him in a secure room. Then I'll put on my latex and kiss him"
I mean really. What was she thinking?

And regarding the whole brainwashed agent thing, that whole pretense was rather flimsy, wasn't it? Everyone just jumped on board and believed it without much thought or questioning.

And I'm not going to go on about Sam/Jack here as enough folks have already. I will say this much, however. During my first watch of this series, this is the point where I jumped on board the Sam/Jack bandwagon. I played along happily for MANY, MANY, MANY seasons (insert random grumble).

Badhron
November 28th, 2009, 09:54 PM
I know this is a bit pedantic, but I noticed that when the guard lets Freya out of Jack's cell, he stands facing away from the door before Jack closes it, giving Jack a perfect opportunity to grab his sidearm.

es!
November 29th, 2009, 02:25 AM
I know this is a bit pedantic, but I noticed that when the guard lets Freya out of Jack's cell, he stands facing away from the door before Jack closes it, giving Jack a perfect opportunity to grab his sidearm.

I understood that always as him being discreet :D
But you are actually right :)

gateship15
November 29th, 2009, 03:59 AM
i like how the host and the parasite like diffrent people one likes danial the other likes jack lol. i also love how jack and sam finally tell the truth about there feelings altho i think by teal'cs expression he had already figured it out

Tachyon
December 7th, 2009, 02:43 AM
One of my favorite episodes. The shipper in me enjoys this tremendously. The Sam/Jack flashback scene is amazing - both AT and RDA made that scene incredible. Overall a good episode. Poor Martouf, though. (And Freya's/Anise's clothes are hideous. Ha ha).

gateship15
December 7th, 2009, 10:53 AM
i felt sad that martouf was taken over then killed.

Girlbot
December 7th, 2009, 11:05 AM
I just rewatched this last week. It always makes me sad when Martouf get killed.

gateship15
December 7th, 2009, 11:07 AM
yep it makes me sad to. poor sam she has feelings for martouf and to see him get killed was horrible. but at least it wasn't jack or sam

mrscopterdoc
March 13th, 2010, 04:22 PM
The shippy epiosde. Jack says he cares for Sam but we don't get to see Sam confess that. And then right after that, Martouf dies and Sam cares for him too and Jack sees it. How messed up is that?

Thankfully no more Anise/Freya after this...that outfit was disgusting.

suse
March 13th, 2010, 04:58 PM
That outfit was MGM's idea. They wanted a 7 of 9 type character. <cough>

jelgate
March 13th, 2010, 05:24 PM
That outfit was MGM's idea. They wanted a 7 of 9 type character. <cough>

Wasn't it more Showtime then MGM?

maneth
September 6th, 2010, 11:45 PM
That outfit screamed Seven of Nine to me too... Aargh! Other than that, I liked the episode, and the Sam/Jack flashback was fabulous.

It really bothered me that we never heard Martouf's distorted voice in this episode, do we even know his host's name? Sam cradling Martouf's body bothered me a bit too, but I figure it was more Jolinar's doing than Sam's, even if Martouf claimed he had come to care for Sam as well.

Ibn Rushd
June 10th, 2011, 08:39 PM
Sad to see Martouf die (and in such a horrible way! ). As for Lantash, we never got to hear from him since "Serpent's Song" in season 2. Not a good way to develop a character, by not having him around. I wonder how he viewed the whole Natu trip, and wouldn't he have been able to withstand torture more. Also it is not resolved if Lantash knew or could've done anything about the zatarc programming.

hedwig
June 26th, 2011, 08:44 AM
It really bothered me that we never heard Martouf's distorted voice in this episode, do we even know his host's name? Sam cradling Martouf's body bothered me a bit too, but I figure it was more Jolinar's doing than Sam's, even if Martouf claimed he had come to care for Sam as well.

Martouf is the host. Lantash is his Tok'ra symbiote.

I can understand why Sam was cradling his body, since she was the one that fired the shot that killed him, and he was her friend, and she'd just been through the ringer emotionally with all the stuff surrounding the zatarc testing. I honestly can't see her just standing there looking at the body lying on the floor like everyone else was doing.

Taking this a bit off topic, we do find out in "Summit" and "Last Stand" more about Martouf and Lantash.

hedwig
June 26th, 2011, 08:47 AM
The shippy epiosde. Jack says he cares for Sam but we don't get to see Sam confess that. And then right after that, Martouf dies and Sam cares for him too and Jack sees it. How messed up is that?

Thankfully no more Anise/Freya after this...that outfit was disgusting.

Can you really see Sam just standing there looking at the body as though it meant nothing. Martouf was her friend, and she had just fired the shot that killed him. And I think Jack was totally understanding about her sorrow/grief/whatever at having had to do that, as would anybody else have been. I don't see it as messed up at all. Just because she loves Jack doesn't mean she can't feel grief over the loss of her friend, Martouf.

chrono trigger
June 26th, 2011, 09:20 AM
Can you really see Sam just standing there looking at the body as though it meant nothing. Martouf was her friend, and she had just fired the shot that killed him. And I think Jack was totally understanding about her sorrow/grief/whatever at having had to do that, as would anybody else have been. I don't see it as messed up at all. Just because she loves Jack doesn't mean she can't feel grief over the loss of her friend, Martouf.

completely agree:) people forget that because of jolinar sam and martouf had become very close (as friends) so of course she was very upset he died i would have been more surprised if sam had been unaffected by it.

SaraBahama
June 26th, 2011, 12:55 PM
The shippy epiosde. Jack says he cares for Sam but we don't get to see Sam confess that. And then right after that, Martouf dies and Sam cares for him too and Jack sees it. How messed up is that?
Thankfully no more Anise/Freya after this...that outfit was disgusting.


That outfit screamed Seven of Nine to me too... Aargh! Other than that, I liked the episode, and the Sam/Jack flashback was fabulous.
It really bothered me that we never heard Martouf's distorted voice in this episode, do we even know his host's name? Sam cradling Martouf's body bothered me a bit too, but I figure it was more Jolinar's doing than Sam's, even if Martouf claimed he had come to care for Sam as well.

Consistently thoughout the series, Sam has ALWAYS been bothered by the death of her commrades and allies (and more inclined to show it than the guys...and I believe that it bothers her that the guys seem to accept losses so stoically)...

What I always got out of that end scene was her aiming her weapon at Martouf (isn't she the one that told the others to hold their fire?), Martouf BEGGING her to keep him from blowing himself up, and her having to kill him. Then she had to push down her her emotions and clear the body, removing the ring from his hand. LORD! To have to choose to kill a friend (or even an ally)...how gut wrenching is that? Even Jack winces...and I think if he could have spared Sam that choice, he would have (he's had to do a lot of distasteful things in his career, and I don't think he wanted her to have to live with that...but he couldn't...and with the crowd in that room, he couldn't even go over and lay his hand on her as a sign of support...too much risk of gossip). imo.

SaraBahama
June 26th, 2011, 01:07 PM
That's part of her personality. He seemed a bit shocked that she wanted to leave it in that room. As if he was prepared to deal with the ramifications of their admission if SHE wanted to. When she didn't, he was ok with tucking it away.
RDA has pink cheeks a lot. And makeup doesn't always cover it up.
His comment about 'I could blow any minute now' or whatever it was after she kissed him was priceless. He delivered the double entendre with such a straight face I have to wonder how many takes it took.

1) I had wondered if his cheeks were naturally that pink (I've noticed the color in many, many episodes) or if the 'enhanced' it for the show. I LOVE his skin tone.

2) I was rewatching the ep alone the other day and laughed so hard it hurt. All I could think was:
O'NEILL: Hey…I could blow here any minute.
FREYA: If I was the target, your Zatarc programming would have triggered long ago.
O'NEILL: *That's not what I meant... * (SaraB's evil laughter)

I love his whispered 'whatcha doin'?' when she kisses him the first time. I also love when he was talking with Daniel and he said 'she made a pass at me' and Daniel immediately said 'Sam?' (ROTFL)... wonder why Daniel jumped so readily to that conclusion...

hedwig
June 26th, 2011, 02:08 PM
The confession of Jack's feeling about Sam in this episode is classic, although I'm a bit sad to see Sam's reacting a bit cold and rational to it

I didn't think she acted cold and rational at all. She still had all those drugs running through her that Janet had administered to sedate her for a long spell, and then she had to tell Jack why the machine thought they were zatarcs (with Anise, Janet and Teal'c watching and listening). I thought she looked a little bit dazed, but not cold.


That's part of her personality. He seemed a bit shocked that she wanted to leave it in that room. As if he was prepared to deal with the ramifications of their admission if SHE wanted to. When she didn't, he was ok with tucking it away.

I thought Jack seemed a bit confused at her statement, but not shocked. I also thought he looked quite relieved at the suggestion. From several episodes, we know that Jack hates talking about feelings, and I think he was relieved at her suggestion and more than willing to leave it in the room. And, btw, nobody ever said anything about "locking" it in the room, it was just suggested that it didn't have to leave the room.

stargatefangirl
July 30th, 2011, 11:59 AM
That makes a lot of sense I re-watch the episode I saw that too. She just wanted to save his life.

Solitude
August 26th, 2011, 01:15 AM
Consistently thoughout the series, Sam has ALWAYS been bothered by the death of her commrades and allies (and more inclined to show it than the guys...and I believe that it bothers her that the guys seem to accept losses so stoically)...

What I always got out of that end scene was her aiming her weapon at Martouf (isn't she the one that told the others to hold their fire?), Martouf BEGGING her to keep him from blowing himself up, and her having to kill him. Then she had to push down her her emotions and clear the body, removing the ring from his hand. LORD! To have to choose to kill a friend (or even an ally)...how gut wrenching is that? Even Jack winces...and I think if he could have spared Sam that choice, he would have (he's had to do a lot of distasteful things in his career, and I don't think he wanted her to have to live with that...but he couldn't...and with the crowd in that room, he couldn't even go over and lay his hand on her as a sign of support...too much risk of gossip). imo.

Whenever I have seen this episode this ^^^ is what I have thought. Her grieve when holding Martouf wasn't because she lost someone she as Sam loved but a comrade.

mparsons1981
October 9th, 2011, 04:01 PM
Rewatching now as part of the big stargate rewatch. Gotta love Freyas outfit! :)

Seaboe Muffinchucker
October 21st, 2011, 05:46 PM
Rewatching now as part of the big stargate rewatch. Gotta love Freyas outfit! :)
You mean the "look, I have boobs and I'm wearing a leather thong" outfit? Hate, hate, hate.

I think Freya/Anise could've been an interesting character, if the ptb hadn't restricted her role to eye candy.

Parts I love: Jack's feet falling off his desk and his not knowing what to do with his hands when Freya kisses him. Daniel talking about the Jack O'Neill moments he'll miss the most. Teal'c with the zat when Jack's about to go through "the procedure."

And that actress who played Lt. Aster--she was really something.

ETA: Hey, Jack, why didn't you take the head shot? You could've stopped Martouf (and Lantash) cold.

Seaboe

Brother Freyr
November 2nd, 2011, 10:30 PM
Do we or don't we have a Xanax detector?

This episode has a nice feeling of continuity from 4x03 and 4x04.


Gotta love Freyas outfit! :)
You mean the "look, I have boobs and I'm wearing a leather thong" outfit? Hate, hate, hate.
Yep, that's the one. :D

Stong emotional impact in this ep. Not just Jack & Sam. Martouf's death was pretty awful.

Starscape91
November 6th, 2011, 02:27 PM
This is one of my favorite episodes. I loved the whole Zatarc idea its to bad they don't mention it again until SGU. I loved the scene between Anise/Freya and Jack. I never realized it before, but Freya blamed Anise for the whole Upgrades incident and said Anise would just have to suffer because she likes Jack not Daniel. Jacks expression and comments after Freya makes a pass at him were hilarious.

Loved the scene between Jack and Daniel how Jack tells him Freya made a pass at him and the snake likes Daniel. Also the fact that Daniel thought Sam made a pass at Jack not Freya was hilarious. I'm a big Jack/Sam shipper so I love the fact that they confess their feelings for eachother it's to bad we never got to see Sams confession though. I never like Martouf so him dying at the end I didn't mind, but the way he died and the fact that Sam killed him considering the whole Jolinar thing was sad.

Matt G
November 6th, 2011, 02:51 PM
Tuesday night and another ep of SG1...

1. "Tuesday...not good for the President..." yeah...the secrecy hamstrings things slightly...

2. Per'sus gets introduced...and then a guy goes nuts...woah!

3. "Do we are do we not have a zanex detector" That's Jack O'Neill for you...

4. Well I knew Jack and Sam being zatarcs wasn't going to be straightforward but first time around I'd honestly seen no canon ship at this point.

5. Jack-Anise...fine...

6. Jack-Sam ship? :eek:

7. Martouf! :eek:

Very wierd ep!

Lieutenant Sparrow
November 7th, 2011, 12:30 AM
Not the best ep but not the worst either.

Not much I can say that hasn't already been said. But I liked the weapon the Zatarcs used.

Sad to see Martouf die. Sort of.

Seaboe Muffinchucker
November 7th, 2011, 08:37 AM
Also the fact that Daniel thought Sam made a pass at Jack not Freya was hilarious.
It was a natural guess, with no hidden ship whatsoever. They'd just been talking about Sam, Jack said "she" made a pass at him, of course Daniel would first think Jack meant Sam. That's not the same as Daniel thinking Sam made a pass at Jack.

Don't get me wrong, I see ship in the episode. I just don't see ship there.

Seaboe

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
November 7th, 2011, 03:44 PM
A really sad episode episode. I thought this episode, in a way, had a very SGU feeling to it, at least the teaser did.

So Martouf is dead, and he'll never be back. Oh wait. he'll be back (as one from another universe), in season 9.

Stuff from the commentary:

There was about how the episode focuses on the relationships of the characters.
The new footage in this episode, that was not shown in Upgrades.


Tomorrow, a top 5 episode of the series (and the franchise), Joe and Paul's first SG-1 episode, the funny "Window of Opportunity."

Krisz
November 7th, 2011, 05:10 PM
An episode that still held my interest with this re-watch. I had to think for a moment to try and remember what this episode was about on seeing the title next up on the DVD viewing list. Has it been so long since I'd last seen this episode?!

I liked the tension with working on how to stop them ending up dead whether they fulfilled their programming or not. The twist with the machine registering unspoken feelings in the same way as altered memories was a great way to bring out an awkward revelation as far as Sam and Jack were concerned.

When Jack volunteers to go through with the procedure to try to deprogram him, the moment Sam calls after him as he's walking down the corridor and he looks back is one of the most poignant moments between the two characters for me. The closest they came again was when Jack is close to death after using the chair in Antarctica in 'Lost City'.

The only bit that let this episode down was the ending as everyone stood around 'lamenting' the death of Martouf. To me they only ended up looking like a crowd of people awkwardly standing around waiting for the director to call "cut"! It failed as a solemn scene for me!

SaraBahama
November 7th, 2011, 08:17 PM
And that actress who played Lt. Aster--she was really something. Seaboe

Thanks for pointing that out -I thought the same thing on the rewatch -I don't think I had the same appreciation the first time!!

SG3Marine
November 8th, 2011, 07:04 AM
Overall it was a good episode. And even though I go along with the whole ship between Sam and Jack, I thought it was a little too much. And Anise's outfit was ridiculous

Jae'a
November 8th, 2011, 10:55 AM
You mean the "look, I have boobs and I'm wearing a leather thong" outfit? Hate, hate, hate.

I think Freya/Anise could've been an interesting character, if the ptb hadn't restricted her role to eye candy.
I hear ya. I couldn't help thinking throughout the episode, "Does Freya want to get dressed for the president's visit?" :P

My LiveJournal post (http://jo-r-lee.livejournal.com/19336.html)

Nut_ty
November 8th, 2011, 10:35 PM
This episode has great pacing—the stakes just continue to escalate with each new “dire consequence”. As the episode gets to the point of Jack risking his life for Sam. and Sam getting sedated, for possibly a long time—I just want to scream that they are not Za’tarcs! To prove this, Jack and Sam are forced to state their feelings for each other, something that neither one of them want to admit.

There are some classic moments in this episode. The Jack/Sam relationship arc gets a big boost from this episode. Freya coming onto Jack was a surprise, but who can blame her (RDA is hot :rolleyes:)! The dialog between Jack and Daniel about the Freya incident—Daniel assuming that it was Sam, and Jack telling Daniel that the “snake”, Anise, likes him is priceless!

I like Martouf, he’s my favorite Tok’ra after Jacob. While killing him off in this episode is a great end to this episode—don’t take my “Martie” away :eek:!

This is one of the episodes where my “scientific” mind is stretched too far!

While the concept of Za’tarcs is very plausible; Anise/Freya’s method of detection and “cure” of Gou’ld programming is on shaky grounds scientifically. For example, how often can you recall an event from your past in such detail so that both your conscious and the subconscious memories are identical?

In both Jack’s and Sam’s cases the results are a false positive—a false memory is indicated where none exists, and what about Lt. Aster? Was she also a false positive?

OK, sometimes trying to make sense of the “science” part of “science fiction” gives me a headache :samanime27: (flame on)!

jelgate
November 12th, 2011, 12:53 PM
I think Anise gets less clothes with every subsquent episode:P


I know this is like the holy grail of episodes among shippers but as I do not care about the jack/sam ship at all I just find this episode dull. The story of Goa'uld brain washing is hardly something new but the notion of a zatarc is a little different kind of brainwashing in that it only snaps when a certain stimulus triggers tt. I find this concept interesting and would like to have explored it a little more then just random testing. But instead we get this slow pacing of discovering who are zatarcs and the dullness of jack/sam ship.

On the plus side I like watching Martorf dieing. Not that I like Martof had to die but I thought it was done in a tasteful way when he asks Sam to kill him

dtheories
November 13th, 2011, 01:42 PM
My only comment regarding the whole Jack/Sam was there/wasn't there a *thing* is to say that I sensed from Jack more chemistry with Freya. What? What?

It's very hard to imagine Martouf is gone, though it's also interesting to realize that he did not appear in that many episodes. When I think of the SG-1 portion of the franchise and Martouf, he seems a much larger part of the storyline. Well written and performed character to leave such an impression.

hlndncr
November 13th, 2011, 01:52 PM
Some people don't like Sam/Jack. Others of us love it! Let's just agree to disagree and move on.

fems
November 13th, 2011, 02:13 PM
My only comment regarding the whole Jack/Sam was there/wasn't there a *thing* is to say that I sensed from Jack more chemistry with Freya. What? What?

What? :confused:Are you saying there's more chemistry between Freya and Jack than there is between Jack and Sam? Otherwise I have no idea what you're trying to say here...

shipper hannah
November 18th, 2011, 01:08 PM
In both Jack’s and Sam’s cases the results are a false positive—a false memory is indicated where none exists, and what about Lt. Aster? Was she also a false positive?

No, they got a false positive because they weren't telling the whole story. The recollection of the memory was false, not the memory itself.

hlndncr
November 18th, 2011, 01:34 PM
In both Jack’s and Sam’s cases the results are a false positive—a false memory is indicated where none exists, and what about Lt. Aster? Was she also a false positive?


No, they got a false positive because they weren't telling the whole story. The recollection of the memory was false, not the memory itself.

I don't think the question was refering to Sam and Jack. I think the question is if the machine gives false positives, as we know it does from Sam and Jack's testing and subsequent retesting, then did it also show a false positive in Lt. Astor's case?

I think we can safely say that the reading on Astor was not a false positive. In the case of Sam and Jack we have no other evidence of them being za'tarcs other than the machine. We have other, independent factors demonstrating that Astor was compromised and I believe that was the impression the writers were trying to give.

First, her CO Major Graham went crazy and tried to kill high councilor Persus earlier and when he was unable to complete the mission killed himself. They were both on a mission where the members of the team were separated, surrounded by Jaffa and yet returned unharmed. If one member of that team was compromised at that time it's reasonable to assume others could have been as well.

Second, when Freya attempted a procedure on Astor that would tamper with the Goa'uld programing she became violent and self destructive in the same way Major Graham had done. Unless the procedure itself causes such extreme and erratic behavior (making it very ineffective as any kind of a cure), then Astor's reaction was a result of a failsafe mechanism in the za'tarc programing to prevent just such an occurance.

So I don't believe in the case of Astor it was a false positive.

Dave2
December 5th, 2011, 04:17 PM
And why wouldn't the possible zatarc be restrained completely during the process to prevent him/her from escaping like the Lieutenant? And if the Head of the Tok'ra council could be tested in advance, then surely Martouf could have been. Any Tok'ra should have been given their access to worlds and espionage work.
And then one would ask how the goa'uld would have known that there was supposed to be a meeting with the American president that Martouf would even attend.......
And why is it that Lantash survived after Martouf was riddled with bullets, but other symbiotes die with the host under far less dangerous circumstances?
Was the zatarc seeking to kill Jolinar on Earth also suicidal?? I don't recall that he was programmed for suicide.

hlndncr
December 5th, 2011, 06:37 PM
And why wouldn't the possible zatarc be restrained completely during the process to prevent him/her from escaping like the Lieutenant? And if the Head of the Tok'ra council could be tested in advance, then surely Martouf could have been. Any Tok'ra should have been given their access to worlds and espionage work.
And then one would ask how the goa'uld would have known that there was supposed to be a meeting with the American president that Martouf would even attend.......
And why is it that Lantash survived after Martouf was riddled with bullets, but other symbiotes die with the host under far less dangerous circumstances?
Was the zatarc seeking to kill Jolinar on Earth also suicidal?? I don't recall that he was programmed for suicide.


Jolinar was hunted by an Ashrak.

They explain how Lantash survived in Summit.

I agree that it was ridiculous that Martouf was never tested.

There is a goa'uld spy in the Tok'ra's midst--Tanith.

fems
December 6th, 2011, 12:24 AM
Plus we don't know what SG-14 told the Goa'uld during their interrogation/capture after which they were zatarced. IIRC, Anise/Freya only theorized that they would kill themselves if they missed their objective or if there was a time limit at all (perhaps they'd zatarced Martouf just in case for future events).

But I agree that it's ridiculous they would even know about the USA having a president (although it could've been learned like the cotton-thing in Rules of Engagement), but that often happens because apparently there's a galactic watercooler and grapevine. I mean, how would they even know Jacob (or Selmak's host) was Sam's father? Or that Sam has been host to Jolinar?

Dave2
December 6th, 2011, 06:40 AM
Tanith was being fed FALSE information for his goa'uld master, so how would he have been able to program anything in Martouf except possibly at the very last minute, perhaps passing him in the hallway, since evidently the device or program required only a few moments to set up in the person.
However, the fact that the Tok'ra KNEW that Tanith was a spy should presumably mean that ALL the Tok'ra officials should have been tested, including Matouf.


Jolinar was hunted by an Ashrak.

They explain how Lantash survived in Summit.

I agree that it was ridiculous that Martouf was never tested.

There is a goa'uld spy in the Tok'ra's midst--Tanith.

hlndncr
December 6th, 2011, 06:58 AM
Tanith was being fed FALSE information for his goa'uld master, so how would he have been able to program anything in Martouf except possibly at the very last minute, perhaps passing him in the hallway, since evidently the device or program required only a few moments to set up in the person.
However, the fact that the Tok'ra KNEW that Tanith was a spy should presumably mean that ALL the Tok'ra officials should have been tested, including Matouf.

I didn't mean that Tanith programed Martouf just that he had the information about the summit. Although the Tok'ra were feeding him false info, they were rather incompetent at keeping him under control. In Exodus he escapes and has a hidden ship waiting for him that the Tok'ra clearly didn't know about, which tells me he could have gotten some good information through.

Dave2
December 6th, 2011, 07:08 AM
So then the story left out the likelihood that just before the Tok'ra headed for the stargate to come to Earth they passed Tanith in the hall, and he asked them where they were going. And they told him the *truth* that they were going to meet the US president. And he just zapped Martouf? That's the only scenario that makes sense. But of course why would they tell him the truth?


I didn't mean that Tanith programed Martouf just that he had the information about the summit. Although the Tok'ra were feeding him false info, they were rather incompetent at keeping him under control. In Exodus he escapes and has a hidden ship waiting for him that the Tok'ra clearly didn't know about, which tells me he could have gotten some good information through.