Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Nitpicking, realism, and the law of non-contradiction

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Nitpicking, realism, and the law of non-contradiction

    Personnally I am not very interested in the realism of a sci-fi show, and I am not the kind of guy who will nitpick at the realism of military costumes or weapons or other stuff. I am even convinced that a sci-fi show must be somewhat unrealistic.

    If you tell me that Superman can see through thick walls, ok I accept it, even if you wish to demonstrate that Superman cannot, precisely because light doesn't cross thick walls. It's just a show, it's a superpower. The zpm is a super battery well then ok. No physics discussion.

    On the other hand, one thing that makes me uneasy is the lack of INNER coherence. That is, if we have stated that Superman is allergic to kryptonite, then we don't see Superman every odd episode close to kryptonite without anything happening. Seems to me fair enough to demand such a consistency from a show, otherwise there's no story anymore, precisely no plot.

    In Runner, I have seen (Spoilers):

    1) McKay says the planet receives lethaly intense solar energy. Nobody contradicts him and yet nobody cares, McKay is a clown character because he takes basic precautions, and then eventually he doesn't care himself. So, what can I say, everybody has skin cancer now and will die in a few weeks, or McKay was wrong and he's no longer a scientist? Or did I miss something...

    2) Ronon is supposed to come from a planet. A whole planet with at least one large city. Yet SGA send a drone looking around the stargate site for a few minutes, see no one and decide no one survived the culling. On the whole planet. That they don't see.

    Plus many other details. Plus there is as usual this constant shift in the series between wraiths you can kill and wraiths you cannot kill, but we already spoke about that.

    I don't know what to say. Is it some kind of new poetic license storytelling, or are TBTP clearly overworked?
    No rep points, I'm out of the Karma now. No title would be perfect.
    I apologize for not having time to read everything, and missing relevant contributions.
    Please don't read my posts as important about real life issues, and don't reply as such.


    #2
    Originally posted by Furling God
    In Runner, I have seen (Spoilers):

    1) McKay says the planet receives lethaly intense solar energy. Nobody contradicts him and yet nobody cares, McKay is a clown character because he takes basic precautions, and then eventually he doesn't care himself. So, what can I say, everybody has skin cancer now and will die in a few weeks, or McKay was wrong and he's no longer a scientist? Or did I miss something...

    2) Ronon is supposed to come from a planet. A whole planet with at least one large city. Yet SGA send a drone looking around the stargate site for a few minutes, see no one and decide no one survived the culling. On the whole planet. That they don't see.
    1) He said that the levels of radiation were dangerously high not lethal and you probably need to be exposed for an extended period
    2)Whats to say that they didnt also send a PJ and just used the drone to show him - whats to say there isnt toxins in the atmosphere detected by the drone which are too high for human life to be sustainable
    gumboYaYa: you are all beautiful, your words and openness are what make that shine. don't forget how much talent love and beauty you all have.
    so for now, peace love love love more love and happy, and thank you, thank you, thank you
    love Torri

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Furling God

      1) McKay says the planet receives lethaly intense solar energy. Nobody contradicts him and yet nobody cares, McKay is a clown character because he takes basic precautions, and then eventually he doesn't care himself. So, what can I say, everybody has skin cancer now and will die in a few weeks, or McKay was wrong and he's no longer a scientist? Or did I miss something...

      2) Ronon is supposed to come from a planet. A whole planet with at least one large city. Yet SGA send a drone looking around the stargate site for a few minutes, see no one and decide no one survived the culling. On the whole planet. That they don't see.
      1.) McKay is a scientist, but he's also a fuss-bucket. He tends to get himself worked up about things that most people would shrug off. Fact is, even if Earth had no ozone layer, you could withstand months of exposure to those radiation levels with no ill-effects, so long as you kept yourself somewhat covered up. The ISS and the Shuttle have exactly NOTHING in the way of realistic shielding from solar radiation, except for their hulls blocking most visible light, and alot of UV. People stay long stretches of time on the ISS, and the Shuttle can stay up for around 16 days at a time. The planet's atmosphere, while lacking an Ozone layer would still block some radiation, as would the dense foliage they were walking through, and their uniforms, and overall it would be a heck of a lot healthier to be on that world for an extended stay than it would be to hang around on the ISS for the same period of time.

      2.) In a galaxy populated by the Wraith, it's not unlikely to believe that this was the only major city on Ronon's planet. Just not enough time between cullings to really build up a whole civilization.

      -IMF
      "There's not a little boy born who wouldn't tear the world apart to save his mummy... and this little boy can." --The Doctor.
      "The plastic tips at the ends of shoelaces are called Aglets. Their true purpose is sinister."--The Question.
      BAD WOLF!!!

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Furling God
        In Runner, I have seen (Spoilers):

        1) McKay says the planet receives lethaly intense solar energy. Nobody contradicts him and yet nobody cares, McKay is a clown character because he takes basic precautions, and then eventually he doesn't care himself. So, what can I say, everybody has skin cancer now and will die in a few weeks, or McKay was wrong and he's no longer a scientist? Or did I miss something...
        You missed something. The first scientist guy said that they could stay up to two days on the planet without adverse affects(I'm paraphrasing) and hypochondriac Rodney -who has measured how much radiation he's gotten from celphones - discredited him on the basis that he was a mere botonist. The point was made: 2 days wasn't gonna kill them.

        2) Ronon is supposed to come from a planet. A whole planet with at least one large city. Yet SGA send a drone looking around the stargate site for a few minutes, see no one and decide no one survived the culling. On the whole planet. That they don't see.
        Looks like you're nitpicking Superman's X-Ray vision, here... The MALP thing is consistent within the Stargate universe. The only mapping the SGC has ever done of a planet has been, at the most, within the range of a UAV. In at least two occasions they thought the planets were uninhabited, based solely on the UAV range(One False Step) and once, on a foot-patrol(Prisoners). In both cases they were proved wrong, but MALP intel and foot patrols continue to be the main criteria for decising whether a planet is inhabited.

        Also, in Point of No Return, Martin believes that his homeworld is destroyed based solely on the ruins of the one city. So, consistency within the show's universe.
        Gracie

        A Cherokee elder sitting with his grandchildren told them,
        "In every life there is a terrible fight – a fight between two wolves.
        One is evil: he is fear, anger, envy, greed, arrogance, self-pity,
        resentment, and deceit. The other is good: joy, serenity, humility,
        confidence, generosity, truth, gentleness, and compassion."
        A child asked, "Grandfather, which wolf will win?"
        The elder looked the child in the eye. "The one you feed."


        Comment


          #5
          I thought McKay was just paranoid. That other scientist said that it would definitely take an extended amount of time in the sun to affect them. Here's the actual quote:

          MAJ. LORNE: Dr. Parrish said a day or two of exposure wouldn't kill us.
          MCKAY: Oh yes, and Dr. Parrish has a Ph. D. in what, exactly? Right, botany!

          They landed at night, most of the action takes place in daylight, and then the conclusion is at night again. That implies they were only on the planet for about 1 day's worth of exposure to the UV radiation.
          Thornbird: I'm Major Robort Thornbird. And you are?
          Jack: Captain James T. Kirk of the starship Enterprise.
          Thornbird: Your dog tags say otherwise.
          Jack: ... They're lying.

          Comment


            #6
            Nope, the solar radiation wouldn't have killed them as the botanist stated earlier. McKay does like to overexaggerate a tad...

            However, I did find it odd that no one else on the team seemed to take measures to protect themselves. No sunglasses, no hats, both of which are standard fare on SG1. Oh those macho SGA military men...

            Comment


              #7
              Sorry when I heard the botanist at the beginning say "I don't think there's much chance any animal could survive the long term effects of exposure to the sun light on this planet", I imagined it was superior to Earth exposure and that was the level that would harm human skins very quickly. Hence I thought McKay' fears were grounded.

              ... or at least that it was a planet with THIS parameter to be taken into account. But it's not during the rest of the episode.

              I thought McKay's solar cream was not excessive. At least I put some on my face in intense solar exposure. But the soldiers were not even wearing a cap...

              By the way, the botanist was talking about animals being killed by solar exposure in a dense forest shielding from solar exposure... Or was he meaning that ALSO under trees radiation was lethal? Yes I must have understood that was why they investigated by night.

              And also I suspect there's something missing in the rythm of days and nights in this episode. I must take time to watch it entirely again.
              No rep points, I'm out of the Karma now. No title would be perfect.
              I apologize for not having time to read everything, and missing relevant contributions.
              Please don't read my posts as important about real life issues, and don't reply as such.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by ToasterOnFire
                McKay does like to overexaggerate a tad...
                Yes, and yet overdoing and exaggerating were already excessive

                Now, more seriously: on the same beginning scene, the botanist says it's "surprising the vegetation survived despite this level of radiation". Sounds a bit scorching to me...
                No rep points, I'm out of the Karma now. No title would be perfect.
                I apologize for not having time to read everything, and missing relevant contributions.
                Please don't read my posts as important about real life issues, and don't reply as such.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Furling God
                  Sorry when I heard the botanist at the beginning say "I don't think there's much chance any animal could survive the long term effects of exposure to the sun light on this planet", I imagined it was superior to Earth exposure and that was the level that would harm human skins very quickly. Hence I thought McKay' fears were grounded.

                  ... or at least that it was a planet with THIS parameter to be taken into account. But it's not during the rest of the episode.

                  I thought McKay's solar cream was not excessive. At least I put some on my face in intense solar exposure. But the soldiers were not even wearing a cap...

                  By the way, the botanist was talking about animals being killed by solar exposure in a dense forest shielding from solar exposure... Or was he meaning that ALSO under trees radiation was lethal? Yes I must have understood that was why they investigated by night.

                  And also I suspect there's something missing in the rythm of days and nights in this episode. I must take time to watch it entirely again.
                  Well first, he said the radiation was higher than Earth's exposure due to the lack of an ozone layer on that planet. That's it, just lack of ozone. Like I said before, people survive months above the ozone layer when on ISS. Trust me, the radiation levels in space are very high.

                  Second, that botanist guy was talking out his butt. Of course there was animal life on that planet. Their probably just nocturnal and burrowers.

                  -IMF
                  "There's not a little boy born who wouldn't tear the world apart to save his mummy... and this little boy can." --The Doctor.
                  "The plastic tips at the ends of shoelaces are called Aglets. Their true purpose is sinister."--The Question.
                  BAD WOLF!!!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    It is true the major says "Dr Parish said a day or two shouldn't kill us", but during the previous dialogue they were like taking the exposure danger seriously into account, like saying it was dark, saying they were protected by rain and clouds... seems pretty confusing to me.
                    No rep points, I'm out of the Karma now. No title would be perfect.
                    I apologize for not having time to read everything, and missing relevant contributions.
                    Please don't read my posts as important about real life issues, and don't reply as such.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Furling God
                      Yes, and yet overdoing and exaggerating were already excessive

                      Now, more seriously: on the same beginning scene, the botanist says it's "surprising the vegetation survived despite this level of radiation". Sounds a bit scorching to me...
                      Parrish said he was surprised that things could survive "long-term" exposure. We have no idea what he meant by long-term. Days? Not likely, in my opinion, since most vegetation and animal life take a lot longer than days to grow and thrive. I think he meant more along the lines of months or years. The radiation's higher but I'm pretty sure McKay was just being paranoid and overly cautious. Plus, McKay points out that his skin is very fair. Very fair-skinned people can easily contract skin cancer from being out in the sun on Earth, so it's understandable that he'd be kind of paranoid about protecting himself on a planet with a reduced ozone layer.

                      Edit: I just checked the episode again and the scientist says that it's unlikely any animal could survive the long-term effects of the radiation, implying that Lorne should ease up and not be so cautious. I think the intent behind what he was saying is that animals couldn't have evolved very far with the level of radiation, which makes sense. Animals evolved on Earth to the extent they did partly because of the ozone layer protecting us from higher levels of UV radiation, but it doesn't mean that all the animals on that planet died simultaneously after a few days' exposure to the higher UV. They more likely died out gradually, after constant exposure for generations. The time frame is a lot longer than a day or two, at least.
                      Last edited by TheCorpulent1; 02 August 2005, 07:57 AM.
                      Thornbird: I'm Major Robort Thornbird. And you are?
                      Jack: Captain James T. Kirk of the starship Enterprise.
                      Thornbird: Your dog tags say otherwise.
                      Jack: ... They're lying.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Ok I think I can describe it better now. There seems to be two lines contradicting each others in this episode.

                        The first and main line is to show a high solar exposure planet. To this line belong the ecological summary by the botanist at the beginning, the numerous night and/or forest protection scenes, the fact that the first day scene begins by Ronon hiding with his hostages in a cave, that Ronon and Tayla waiting for Becket sit in the shadow of the cave's entry, and so on. Quite interesting, I would say, to have an adventure on a planet with particular parameters.

                        Then there is a later and secondary line, but also a very decent one, aiming to show McKay as the clown character, with his orange rubber suit and all that, oversensitive, over-self-caring... Fair enough, a few comical scenes. In order for that line to be effective, the other characters had to walk by day without any protection, and without any unease, being the psycologically normal references. Consequently the planet has to be safe, with just a sunny weather, not even a desertic sun exposure on Earth.

                        The problem is, according to the series in general, Rodney is the one character who would be right about radiation measures. He can be wrong about food or weapon wearing or dates or whatever, but not about scientific measures.
                        No rep points, I'm out of the Karma now. No title would be perfect.
                        I apologize for not having time to read everything, and missing relevant contributions.
                        Please don't read my posts as important about real life issues, and don't reply as such.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          His knowledge of science has also made him more paranoid than others in certain situations too. Like in "Thirty-Eight Minutes," when he's getting frantic while the others remained calm because he was "the only one capable of comprehending how screwed" they were. Same deal here. McKay had somewhat legitimate concerns about the higher radiation but the others chose another scientist's word over McKay's so they could keep cool heads (no pun intended).

                          The planet's got a relatively high solar radiation index that is sufficient to kill off early animal life and keep it from evolving, but not high enough to harm advanced life--like humans--with natural resistances to radiation from living under our own sun on Earth. As for all of the precautions, well:

                          - The teams searched under cover of night simply because it's pragmatic. The radiation wouldn't do any major damage over the course of one or two days, but still, why expose yourself even that much if you can hopefully get all your business done overnight?

                          - Dex hid in a cave because he was probably on the planet for a lot longer than just a few days. He jumps from planet to planet, stays as long as he can until the Wraith compromise his location, then he moves on. In his case, standing around in the sun for as long as he would've stayed on the planet probably would have been harmful to him.

                          - No one else used McKay's sunscreen because, as Sheppard pointed out, they're on a search and rescue mission for Ford, who might potentially get hostile with them. The element of surprise would've been a great addition to their arsenal in that situation and apparently McKay's sunscreen reeked of coconut oils. Ford's new super-senses would've picked that up a mile away and they probably never would've found him. The team weighed potential exposure to UV radiation during the day against tipping Ford off too quickly to their presence and took a calculated risk in order to better facilitate the achievement of their objective.
                          Thornbird: I'm Major Robort Thornbird. And you are?
                          Jack: Captain James T. Kirk of the starship Enterprise.
                          Thornbird: Your dog tags say otherwise.
                          Jack: ... They're lying.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by ToasterOnFire
                            Nope, the solar radiation wouldn't have killed them as the botanist stated earlier. McKay does like to overexaggerate a tad...

                            However, I did find it odd that no one else on the team seemed to take measures to protect themselves. No sunglasses, no hats, both of which are standard fare on SG1. Oh those macho SGA military men...
                            McKay is a hypochrondriac, but he'll probably outlast the rest, if nobody shoots him first

                            Well, they all set out on their searching at night, so why bother with hats or sunglasses, and I think it'll be a cold day in hell when we see anything atop Shep's head (aside from a helmet in an X-302) Usually, by TV rules, only one guy can wear sunglasses. if everybody does, you don't see the emotion on their face and in their eyes, as so much shows in the eyes. Hence, it's counterproductive to entertaining the masses. Rule 2: second lead-in types can wear boonie hats, handerchiefs, radiation suits, as they make up for it with their fast talking and gesturing limbs.

                            But as for the radiation on the planet, I'd be more worried about cataracts down the line.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Furling God
                              The problem is, according to the series in general, Rodney is the one character who would be right about radiation measures. He can be wrong about food or weapon wearing or dates or whatever, but not about scientific measures.
                              We've known from the beginning of the series how McKay can go to extremes about a number of things. How many people do you know who keep track of everything they encounter that has even the tiniest bit of radiation. I know I don't and I doubt many people do.
                              "Embress your life, find what it is that you love, and pursue it with all your soul. For if you do not, when you come to die, you will find that you have not lived."

                              A character from the novel "Chindi" by Jack McDevitt

                              Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one.
                              'Eleanor Roosevelt'
                              Individuality is freedom lived.
                              'Janis Joplin'

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X