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cozzerob
July 28th, 2005, 11:54 AM
Just a quick question that's bin buggin me for a while - it has become common knowledge that to fire through a goa'uld's personal defence shield (which is created by the ribbon device) is to use a tranquilliser dart. This is done in several episodes, ie, chimera, etc. However, O'neill tried this out on apophis in season 1 and it didn't go through.

Why not - why is there a discrepancy/ plot hole or have I just missed something that was said sometime that explains this. All your thorghts are much appreciated.

Loaf
July 28th, 2005, 12:54 PM
did he fire from his ribbon divice to deflect it like osiris did in "the curse"

otherwise the writers have just screwed up which is what happens when their deprived of caffine

mightydefiant
July 28th, 2005, 01:32 PM
O'neill tried this out on apophis in season 1 and it didn't go through.
Can you name when this happened? Because I don't recall this.

Watters87
July 28th, 2005, 01:45 PM
Can you name when this happened? Because I don't recall this.

It happened in 'The Nox'. To answer the original question, I think it was said if you reduce the kinetic energy of the tranquiliser dart then it would go through the shield (like the staff weapon) and they probably factored this into the other occasions ie. Chimera

mightydefiant
July 28th, 2005, 03:13 PM
In Nox, Jack is shooting the tranquiliser out of a gun. So it was fast enought for the shield to stop it.

_Owen_
July 28th, 2005, 07:54 PM
Well, first of all the shield is not generated by the hand device, it is generated by a device on the hand device. an "accesory," if you will. We know this because not all hand devices have the shield attachment.

As for the real issue of this thread, in "The Nox" O'Neill wasn't aware that Apophis had a shield, let alone, that they exist, so when he tried shooting him, it didn't work, obviously. However, I believe in "Chimera" Osiris, used the hand device to deflect the tranquilizer, then Daniel just stabbed her with it, or something like that.

In response to mightydefiant. I am sorry, O'Neill fired the tranquiliser of of a tranquiliser gun. You can't fire a tranquiliser dart out of an MP5. To be truthfull it was actually a paintball gun that they modified and spray painted black and said was a tranquiliser gun.

Owen Macri

mightydefiant
July 28th, 2005, 08:06 PM
In response to mightydefiant. I am sorry, O'Neill fired the tranquiliser of of a tranquiliser gun. You can't fire a tranquiliser dart out of an MP5. To be truthfull it was actually a paintball gun that they modified and spray painted black and said was a tranquiliser gun.

Owen Macri
That is what I ment, tranquiliser gun. How did they stop Osiris in season 7, where Pete finds out about Sam's true job?

_Owen_
July 28th, 2005, 08:10 PM
Oh ok, I appoligize. I actually can't remember. it was only like last year that I saw that but I can't remember to well, I think they got into a fire fight when Pete was there but I don't think I remember more than that.

Owen Macri

Charles17
July 29th, 2005, 12:05 AM
i always thought they should just get close enough to slowly stick the weapon into the shield and then start firing. even if all they had was a staff weapon, they should have poked it in and started firing...

~Thor~
July 29th, 2005, 01:59 AM
They shot her like 3 times with a tranquiliser gun

Ascended Times.2
July 29th, 2005, 02:28 AM
For the Apophis thing, the nox saved him from being hit by the darts, and the rest of the goa'uld? They seem to have an unbelieveble resistance to the tranquilizer fluid. Although, Osiris (About he only goa'uld they ever wanted alive) mainly just blocked the darts with ribbon hand device, just making it bounce of the ribbon device

Ascended Times.2
July 29th, 2005, 02:36 AM
i always thought they should just get close enough to slowly stick the weapon into the shield and then start firing. even if all they had was a staff weapon, they should have poked it in and started firing...
Lol, that is so much easyer to say than actually do, the Goa'uld would have blasted you with their ribbon device before you could get near them, or their Jaffa (Whatever Jaffa wanna help the Goa'uld these days...) Or super soldiers would have blasted them into pieces...Although, i suppose it's possible, just unlikely :)

cozzerob
July 29th, 2005, 05:18 AM
Well, first of all the shield is not generated by the hand device, it is generated by a device on the hand device. an "accesory," if you will. We know this because not all hand devices have the shield attachment.

Actually, I think that the hand device made the field - not an accesory. I think this because every goa'uld with a hand device and seemingly nothing else is able to have a forceshield, ie, in 'the tomb' the goa'uld tiamat retrieves his hand device and protects himself from O'neills shooting.

I think you got the idea that the generator was an accesory because teal'c said he'd never seen a personal forceshield like that of apophis. However, this could be due to many other reasons, ie, it was an upgrade that caught on quickly (like the cloaking device on the cargo ships), or maybe he'd never seen it in action - until we showed up a goa'uld as powerful and protected as Apophis would rarely have shots fired at him. so the shield was almost certainly from the hand device.

So, other than Watters87's idea that they toned down the power of the tranq dart pistol for later encounters, all i can see is a massive gaping plot hole...

Oh and yes - it is true that Osiris used the hand device to deflect a tranq dart but that was by using the whole 'blaster' effect that the hand device can create (the one which sends ppl flying). But o'neil fired through the shield with a dart when her back was turned.

_Owen_
July 29th, 2005, 07:09 AM
Plus we have seem many hand devices that do not have shields, as well, it apears that you are just able to control the field through the hand device, and this would be logical because the hand device is controled by the mind, so theoretically, truning something on and off, you be a cinch.

Owen Macri

cozzerob
July 29th, 2005, 08:43 AM
When have we seen hand devices -shields (apart from the movie)?

Crazedwraith
July 29th, 2005, 10:16 AM
When have we seen hand devices -shields (apart from the movie)?
Hathor in season 1.

cozzerob
July 30th, 2005, 10:29 AM
well:

1) I don't think that hathor's hand device doesn't have a shield - she just never uses it (remember - the goa'uld always have to activate it to get it to work {however, i'm not sure if this is true of apophis in season 1 - but if it's not/we didn't see him do it its probably cos it wasn't shown, he'd already turned it on, or it's just a plot hole. They had a few in the first series, but by season 3 they were mostly straightened out...}). Hathor is busy punishing jack when sam shoots her. She hadn't turned the shield on...

2) she's been trapped in the sarcophagus for ages (can't quite remember how long exactly tho...). Maybe the shielding is an upgrade that was introduced after she was trapped?

however, I thikn it's more likely that the shield was off. I'll have to have another look at the season 1 ep with apophis in with his shield, but i know that in every other case the goa'uld has had to manually turn the shield on (the devil you know, double jeopardy, etc)

Lord §okar
July 31st, 2005, 04:31 PM
Osiris' original hand device was sans shield, you can clearly see that the purple crystal that they touch to activate it was absent from the wrist assembly. The shield device was later added aftermarket. Yes, on some occassions the tranquilizer dart fails to penetrate and some it doesn't, they probably made a special ponderously slow shot to pass through Goa'uld shields unhindered.

Actually, I think that the hand device made the field - not an accesory. I think this because every goa'uld with a hand device and seemingly nothing else is able to have a forceshield, ie, in 'the tomb' the goa'uld tiamat retrieves his hand device and protects himself from O'neills shooting.
The cystralline device that sits atop the wrist mounting of the ribbon is what generates the shield. If it were simply integrated into the ribbon itself then they'd be able to activate it without an action and just a thought.

Ascended Times.2, your signature contains spoilers regarding the identity of the Ancients and I must take issue with the grammar.

cozzerob
August 1st, 2005, 08:58 AM
Ascended Times.2, your signature contains spoilers regarding the identity of the Ancients and I must take issue with the grammar.

Ah - the sig has actually cleared something up for me... I have always wondered why the ancients called them selves that - seems pretty arrogant (which may be inkeeping with their personality, but still the name seems out of place). I was wondering if they had previously called themselves something else then changed their name after 'seeding life', etc, etc.

However, due to technical contraints, ie, not having sky tv and living in the UK, I have only managed to get to the end of series 7 of SG1 and 3 episodes into SGA, which means there is lots of cool stuff I have yet to discover. Please do not wreck it for me...

That said i'm very pleased I was right...

But out of interest, when exactly do you discover this cool new info?

cozzerob
August 1st, 2005, 09:03 AM
Oh, and thank you for your explanation Lord §okar. Basically there's a slight plot hole.

Oh, and are you sure that the crystalline device generates the shield. Maybe it's just the start/stop button and the device is incorporated into the hand device?

Anyway, thanx for your thoughts.

_Owen_
August 1st, 2005, 07:21 PM
When have we seen hand devices -shields (apart from the movie)?
As well, there was the one on Cimeria, as well, they have one at the SGC, which we have seen, Carter uses them all of the time, in the episode when Sha're is found, she uses one on Daniel, as well as Hathor in season one, thank you. There are likley many more.

Owen Macri

Lord §okar
August 1st, 2005, 11:19 PM
Oh, and are you sure that the crystalline device generates the shield. Maybe it's just the start/stop button and the device is incorporated into the hand device?

The cystralline device that sits atop the wrist mounting of the ribbon is what generates the shield. If it were simply integrated into the ribbon itself then they'd be able to activate it without an action and just a thought.

Crazedwraith
August 2nd, 2005, 11:31 AM
As well, there was the one on Cimeria, as well, they have one at the SGC, which we have seen, Carter uses them all of the time, in the episode when Sha're is found, she uses one on Daniel, as well as Hathor in season one, thank you. There are likley many more.

Owen Macri

1)Carter uses a hand device twice. Once in 'Thor's CHariot' and once in 'Seth'. That's hardly all the time.

2 For all examples except 'Hathor': Lack of Evidence is not evidence of Lack. Just becuase no one activated a shield o those devices does not mean they did not have one. The only devices we can prove didn't a shield were Ra's and Gathor's becuase in both cases they had to use Human shields instead on energy ones.

_Owen_
August 2nd, 2005, 12:03 PM
Ok, by "all of the time" I didn't mean it litteraly, I meant that more times than zero have we seen a hand device that does not have a shield. There are times when Carter uses the hand device, whether they are two or more, there are two or more, they still exist and disprove the theory that all hand devices posses shields, as well we surley would have learned if they did, seeing as the SGC has or does posses one.


Owen Macri

LOKI LOKI
February 5th, 2006, 03:03 AM
Back to the initial topic of firing through the shields and plot holes i noticed another odd thing that may explain the whole thing. The shields ability to stop something is supposed to be related to the energy and speed at which it approaches the field (just a thought this may be neccesary so air for the person inside to breathe can still enter). However in the one episode with apohis and the replicators they are crawling over his shield very slowly possibly trying to find the way in. At this speed they should pass through it however they dont, this may be a plot hole or.. the shields may have variable settings they use it mainly to stop high energy/ speed objects as it protects against most weapons but conserves energy but that it can also be used to block everything (like the ancients personal shields) however they dont use it on this setting as it drains the batteries too quick?