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Falconoffury
July 27th, 2005, 03:32 PM
I have been reading an interesting discussion about the hypotheses of real zero point energy on the forum of another website. If you want to see the discussion, here you go.

http://peakoil.com/fortopic9186.html

Many scientists agree that zero point energy is a force all around us, but there is much disagreement on how to harness that energy, or if it is even possible to harness it. The basic hypothesis is that energy can come from empty space, at the point of no energy (explaining the name "zero point").

It's a controversial subject, and there is much resistance to it, and very little funding for it, but there is some evidence that some scientists who discovered how to harness zero point energy have been silenced or even murdered. Some hypothesize that zero point devices were invented sometime around or before the Egyptian empire, and it was used in building the pyramids by utilizing something called Casimir force, which is like anti gravity. Some also hypothesize that recovered UFO crashes contain zero point energy systems and fly using anti gravity.

If a ZPM uses zero point energy, then it technically wouldn't ever truly run out of energy. The battery may run dry, but it would be able to recharge itself by extracting energy from space. I just thought that was something never mentioned when discussing ZPMs in the show.

LiquidBlue
July 27th, 2005, 03:47 PM
Any real expert is welcome to give a better exmplanation.

The "zero point" in zero point energy is absolute zero. That is, the term arrises from quantum theory. Any particle within a potential well, and eventually all particles are found to be in some well, will have a determined minimum energy. Even when all other energy is removed there is some ground state below which there are no other energy states. Thus at the "zero point", absolute zero, when classical theory would predict that the particle would have no energy, the particle is found in the ground state with positive energy.

Harnessing this energy to do work is problematic. According to thermodynamics, the amount of useful work that can be performed is a function of the available energy and the difference in temperature between the source and the sink. This is where zero point energy runs into trouble. In order to harness it, we would have to take the particles from the state in which they are in to a lower energy state, but the the state in which they are in, the ground state, is by definition the lowest energy state.

_Owen_
July 27th, 2005, 10:57 PM
Yes, the concept of Zero Point Energy is an interesting one. In fact the "Zero" was rounded to make calculations easier. I can't remember where I read this but I am almost certain it is true. But yes, it is a very cool subject.

Owen Macri

Loaf
July 28th, 2005, 04:52 AM
It sounds very complicated

i read that they'd been able to make small amounts by collapseing water bubbles in a vacume chamber

Qasim
July 28th, 2005, 05:18 AM
Rodney said that the energy is harnessed from subspace

Also see these articles:

http://www.zamandayolculuk.com/cetinbal/QuantumGraviticReactorx.htm [bit of a spoof]
http://kjmaclean.com/ZeroPointEnergy.html [quite long]

Loaf
July 28th, 2005, 08:00 AM
i'm just saying i read it it was a while ago maybey they were observing some other effect

That means ZPM's are just tiny little vacumes or more than that :S

cozzerob
July 28th, 2005, 11:36 AM
It's all very interesting - only time will tell if it actually works. Besides, our current understaning of the universe is probably so flawed that in 100 yrs time our views on science will look quaint...

But one point I must mention - if we are rapidly advancing to ancient-like tech, we must not become as arrogant as them! Its no wonder the asgard haven't tried to ascend...would you want to be stuck with these ppl for all eternity, telling you how advanced their tech was, and how you musn't intervene in mortal matters, etc... not how I'd want to spend my eternity...

Loaf
July 28th, 2005, 12:39 PM
If we last 100 years :S

lethalfang
July 28th, 2005, 07:36 PM
Zero point energy is a term invented to describe the ground state energy level.
According to many equations calculating energies of any system or particles, the lowest energy level (aka the ground state) has a non-zero value. In order to simply numerous calculations of interest, this ground energy level is set to zero, and whatever energy that is above ground state is the maximum amount of work (100% efficiency) one can theoratically extract from the system.
Using zero point energy to work violates the laws of thermodynamics. In order to extract zero point energy to do work, this system that was previously at its ground state has to go to a lower energy state. However, by the definition of "zero point energy," the system does not have a lower energy state. Therefore, zero point energy cannot be used to do work.
However, ZPM is still an entertaining sci-fi plot.

Regarding comments about people who have harnessed "zero point energy" being murdered for working on zero point energy, it's non-sense conspiracy. There's no funding in its research because it goes against everything we know about physics: the conservation of mass-energy.

Casimir force is only demonstrated recently, and hypothesized not too long ago. I'm not too familiar with it, but it think it used the same line of thoughts that gave rise to Hawking's Radiation. You guys can educate me on that part. Casimir force does not violate the laws of thermodynamics.

_Owen_
July 28th, 2005, 07:41 PM
Yes, ok, that is what is exactly what I was trying to say, except for the fact that it was like four o'clock in the morning here and I couldn't think.

Right now, we view science of the Dark Ages, as "magic" and "heresy" not really science at all, however, in the Dark Ages, it was considered modern. In a thousand years, we will likley look back at this time as "ancient." Think about it, what really happend in the year 1000, not a lot, we view those times as ancient, so as technology and knowledge progresses, so will our views on what is ancient.

Owen Macri

lethalfang
July 28th, 2005, 07:56 PM
People 1000 years ago generally did not try to figure out the universe with experimentation or theoratical calculation.
Science as we know it began with Galileo, who started to study the universe in scientific and independent terms.
Over the past few hundreds of years, we have learned much.
We have still only scratched a surface regarding the laws of nature.
However, not everything we have discovered are bound to be wrong.
The laws of thermodynamics is the most fundamental laws of nature, based on sound logic and countless experimentations.
Theormodynamics is independent of the nature of the matters in question. It was developed before quantum mechanics, even before the the existence of atoms was accepted. It still worked after people got rid of the concept of heat as a physical substance.
"Thermodynamics is the only physical theory of universal content which, within the framework of the applicability of its basic concepts, I am convinced will never be overthrown." — Albert Einstein
The only way to use zero point energy to do work is to find an even lower energy state, but then, it wouldn't really be "zero point energy."

_Owen_
July 28th, 2005, 08:03 PM
You see, we assume that what we are doing now, will be recognized in the future as reasonable advanced, however that is far from the case. People one thousand years ago likley thought what they were donig was what we would consider, advanced, science or not. We have no idea, we could not possible ponder what is to come, so we could not possibly assume that what we have done in this day and age will be recognized as science one thousand years from now.

Owen Macri

lethalfang
July 28th, 2005, 08:15 PM
You see, we assume that what we are doing now, will be recognized in the future as reasonable advanced, however that is far from the case. People one thousand years ago likley thought what they were donig was what we would consider, advanced, science or not. We have no idea, we could not possible ponder what is to come, so we could not possibly assume that what we have done in this day and age will be recognized as science one thousand years from now.

Owen Macri

Sorry, but except for the laws of thermodynamics.
If zero point energy can be used to do work, then you have perpetual motor. You have a system at zero point energy, and after it does work, it is at zero point energy because it has no lower energy to go to, and therefore it will run on forever. The fact that "ZPM" can run out of power in Stargate, is a contradiction in itself.
If there is infinite amount of energy stored in any system, this universe would not work the way it does.

_Owen_
July 28th, 2005, 08:28 PM
Well you see in Stargate they changed it up a bit. Instead they are saying that there is all this energy in subspace, zero point energy, so all you need to do it lock onto, or create a self contained region, and "milk," if you will, the energy from it.

Owen Macri

lethalfang
July 28th, 2005, 08:34 PM
Well you see in Stargate they changed it up a bit. Instead they are saying that there is all this energy in subspace, zero point energy, so all you need to do it lock onto, or create a self contained region, and "milk," if you will, the energy from it.

Owen Macri

In order to reconcile with stargate world, I offer this explanation.
Really, it's very hard to imagine an entire region of space to be at absolutely zero point energy. Thus, they found regions of higher energy states within their ZPM. They lock onto these regions and bring them together, and now they extract energy from it, until the locked up regions reaches zero point energy, at which point the ZPM has to be discarded.

_Owen_
July 28th, 2005, 08:37 PM
No, you see I don't think it works that way, I think they are just calling them zero point modules, and that they have nothing to do with zero point energy, they are just using that as a name for this energy that they are extracting from subspace.

Owen Macri

lethalfang
July 28th, 2005, 08:49 PM
No, you see I don't think it works that way, I think they are just calling them zero point modules, and that they have nothing to do with zero point energy, they are just using that as a name for this energy that they are extracting from subspace.

Owen Macri

Another potential mechanism:
The ZPM really contains a space of zero point energy, but instead of extracting energy from the subspace, energy is actually extracted from the space around it. The ZPM provides a lower energy state which matters in the surrounding space can go to, and give off energy in the meantime. The ZPM will run out when the subspace it contains reaches the energy level of the surrounding space.
As an analogy, imagine the air particles in the atmosphere. It can't do any work even though it has a pressure of 1 atm, because there is no difference in pressure/force for it to do work. However, if suddenly a box of vaccum is created (0 atm), all of the sudden there is a pressure difference of 1 atm, and the gas particles will rush into the vaccum until the pressures of the two system equilibrates. Work can be extracted during this process.
ZPM is like that region of vaccum in the atmosphere to extract energy from the surrounding.

_Owen_
July 28th, 2005, 08:51 PM
That is a very good idea, very interesting. I don't want to be a party pooper, but just to be fair about Stargate, they called it a Zero Point Module, we assumed this related to Zero Point Energy. Oh well, Zero Point Energy is still a really cool subject and lethalfang has so really good ideas.

Owen Macri

Loaf
July 29th, 2005, 04:44 AM
maybey is hould try an build one in my shed my elctric bills have gone up again

_Owen_
July 29th, 2005, 07:15 AM
Lol, I want to help!

Owen Macri

Hermiod
July 29th, 2005, 09:50 AM
Sorry, but except for the laws of thermodynamics.
If zero point energy can be used to do work, then you have perpetual motor. You have a system at zero point energy, and after it does work, it is at zero point energy because it has no lower energy to go to, and therefore it will run on forever. The fact that "ZPM" can run out of power in Stargate, is a contradiction in itself.
If there is infinite amount of energy stored in any system, this universe would not work the way it does.

Perhaps the ZedPM is like a large battery capable of storing massive amounts of energy. The Ancients may have used another technology to tap into zero-point energy and charge the ZedPM. I don't recall anyone saying that the ZedPM itself tapped into Zero-point energy.

Loaf
July 29th, 2005, 10:25 AM
it extracts its energy from a tiny self contained vacume which would eventuarly run out

And what if we have the laws of thermodynamics wrong

lethalfang
July 29th, 2005, 03:06 PM
it extracts its energy from a tiny self contained vacume which would eventuarly run out

And what if we have the laws of thermodynamics wrong

This is a self-contradiction. If you can extract work from vaccume (i.e. zero point energy), you have created a perpetual motor out of nothing.
We have the basic framework of laws of thermodynamics right. You simply cannot create something out of nothing.
If the laws of thermodynamics were wrong, that means every particle, every matter, every photon, and every given region of space in this universe contains INFINITE amount of usable energy. If that were true, everything in this universe would have behaved fundamentally differently.
If you can directly extract energy out of zero point energy, that means you have infinite energy from infinitesmally small amount of anything.
The only way a Zero Point Module can do work without violating the laws of thermodynamics is to extract energy from the surrounding, as explained in post #17 in this thread. The ZPM would essentially act as a "cooler" in a heat engine.

Falconoffury
July 29th, 2005, 03:53 PM
If you can directly extract energy out of zero point energy, that means you have infinite energy from infinitesmally small amount of anything.

Not exactly. You would still be limited by the speed at which energy can be extracted.

I think life in general goes against thermodynamics. What created Earth's stores of fossil fuels? Life.

lethalfang
July 29th, 2005, 08:23 PM
Not exactly. You would still be limited by the speed at which energy can be extracted.

I think life in general goes against thermodynamics. What created Earth's stores of fossil fuels? Life.

The speed at which energy is extracted is power, not energy.
The amount of energy you spoke of would be infinite, i.e. energy will be produced forever from a finite source. This is impossible.

Life and everything in life absolutely obeys the laws of thermodynamics. Enormous amount of energy is required to sustain life. This energy comes from fusion reaction in the sun. The fusion occuring in the sun needs fuels, i.e. hydrogen, which will run out some day.

Falconoffury
July 29th, 2005, 10:25 PM
After doing a lot of research about zero point energy, I think it may be possible.

I also think that life is powered by something more than the sun.

All that science really produces are theories. While they are accepted today, there should always be an open window for them to change.

lethalfang
July 29th, 2005, 11:06 PM
Exactly what kind of research do you claim about? Most speculations on the internet regarding the usefulness of zero point energy along with perpetual motion motor are utter non-sense and nothing more than day dream.
Life needs energy to sustain. There are a lot of energies available to us. The most important of which is the energy from the sun. Nearly all other sources of energy, such as chemical energy of gasoline and natural gas, originated from the Sun. Cosmic radiations are also sources of energy, although I suspect that has a significant role other than inducing genetic mutations.
Scientific theories are based much more than just mindless thoughts. They are based on experiments, mathematics, and logics.

"Thermodynamics is the ONLY physical theory of universal content which, within the framework of the applicability of its basic concepts, I am convinced will never be overthrown." — Albert Einstein

Loaf
July 30th, 2005, 12:44 AM
how do we know its not wrong

lethalfang
July 30th, 2005, 01:28 AM
how do we know its not wrong
If a finite source contains infinite energy, and nothingness can do work, then this universe will not work the way it does. Numerous observations we have taken for granted would not have been observed.
Two basic principles must be true, otherwise nature is non-physical:
1) Laws of Thermodynamics: you cannot create something out of nothing; you cannot create infinity from finite source; and you cannot destroy things without a trace.
2) Causality: the cause must precedes the effect, e.g. a bullet cannot hit a target before this bullet fired.
If these two principles are violated, our world will become a very strange place, and we will certainly take notice.

Loaf
July 30th, 2005, 04:14 AM
i thought the way we percieved our universe depended where you viewed it from

lethalfang
July 30th, 2005, 11:28 AM
i thought the way we percieved our universe depended where you viewed it from
This is the basis for the theory of relativity.
The perception of time and space are different for two people (two different frames of reference) if they are moving relative to each other or if they are experiencing different amount of gravity/acceleration.
Cosmic speed limit being the speed of light ensures that the causality does not break down under relativistic effects.

nicedog
July 30th, 2005, 07:06 PM
I read some posts claiming that at the lowest point has the highest Ez. Which is quit right but every object in a force field has potential energy, quite correct again, this can be an electrical field, under water(same as Fz), in a magnetic field etc. This is all very true but can someone please explain to me how you can use that energy, I know it’s there, it will remain there for eternity but how to use it ???. I also read a claim which state that the mass of an object is relevant to it’s Ga, which is not correct, if something weighs 5 grams or 100 tons they will have a same amount of Ga.

Maybe if this is true about Zpm energy we can actually use the Up+Uk= const in reality rather than it just being a quick way to solve a problem.
I also want to say that many is unknown about the universe, it is a place of infinite size( I believe) where we have never encountered anything odd, chances are that if life exists our there in the universe we will never encounter it or we will but ions from now

Back to the ZPM, The whole idea seems what confusing because it really conflicts with many other laws of everything. Maybe in the future ?

Note : English is not my native language

lethalfang
July 30th, 2005, 09:07 PM
I read some posts claiming that at the lowest point has the highest Ez. Which is quit right but every object in a force field has potential energy, quite correct again, this can be an electrical field, under water(same as Fz), in a magnetic field etc. This is all very true but can someone please explain to me how you can use that energy, I know it’s there, it will remain there for eternity but how to use it ???. I also read a claim which state that the mass of an object is relevant to it’s Ga, which is not correct, if something weighs 5 grams or 100 tons they will have a same amount of Ga.

Maybe if this is true about Zpm energy we can actually use the Up+Uk= const in reality rather than it just being a quick way to solve a problem.
I also want to say that many is unknown about the universe, it is a place of infinite size( I believe) where we have never encountered anything odd, chances are that if life exists our there in the universe we will never encounter it or we will but ions from now

Back to the ZPM, The whole idea seems what confusing because it really conflicts with many other laws of everything. Maybe in the future ?

Note : English is not my native language

Potential energy in an applied field, assuming this field will remain there forever, can do work. However, when it does work, it loses potential energy. One thing to keep in mind is that, it takes energy to generate a field.
Basically, in order for a system to do work, it has to release energy. When this system releases energy, this system goes to a lower energy state. That's why batteries will run out of energy.
By the definition, zero point energy is the lowest possible energy state.
Because "zero point energy" cannot go to a lower energy state, it cannot release any energy, therefore it cannot do any work.
Another point I'd like to stress is, even though the universe at some point seems very odd, so does physics. Everything in this universe must obey the laws of nature.

aAnubiSs
July 30th, 2005, 11:07 PM
Find a way to capture a wide spectrum of EM and a way to convert it to useable energy and there you go :) Or/And find a way to capture the virtual pairs and split them up before they annihilate eachother, or just pick up the few particles that get left behind once in a while.

lethalfang
July 31st, 2005, 01:45 AM
Find a way to capture a wide spectrum of EM and a way to convert it to useable energy and there you go :) Or/And find a way to capture the virtual pairs and split them up before they annihilate eachother, or just pick up the few particles that get left behind once in a while.
Damn. Now I'm starting to talk about stuff I am not too familiar with, so I will resort using analogies.
You cannot use the fluctuations in the quantum field such as virtual particles to do work, for the very same reason you cannot use the molecular collisions in the air to do perpetual work. Richard Feynman proposed a thought experiment involving a ratchet and has it move in only one direction via molecular collision from the air. This imaginary device at the first glance would seemingly violate the laws of thermodynamics, but further explanation by Feynman demonstrated that this device can do work only if the temperature inside is higher than the temperature outside, i.e. work can only be extracted from a difference in energy states.
Let's go back and entertain the thought of capture virtual particles for a bit, from the original state to the state of two seperated particles, and consider what you need to overcome to make it happen. A few things come to mind are: the attractive force of the oppositely charged particles, the decrease of entropy of seperating two types of particles. This system is now at a higher energy state, and it can do work by annihilating each other, therefore going to a lower energy state. BUT!
Do you need energy to make this happen? Absolutely.
Will you spend more energy than you get out? I bet ya.
I think the concept of virtual particles come from quantum field theory, where particles can appear if there is a high localized energy (energy to matter conversion). However, the total matter-energy in the system is still conserved. In other words, more energy in the system, more virtual particles. Less energy in the system, less virtual particles.

Loaf
July 31st, 2005, 06:15 AM
i think theres something wrong with the way the universe works

Falconoffury
July 31st, 2005, 10:37 PM
I think the uncertaintly principle conflicts with thermodynamics. According to thermodynamics, energy will contine decreasing until it reaches zero. According to the uncertainty principle, the ground state can never be zero. There are constant electromagnetic fluctuations occuring throughout the universe. So, energy truly is infinite according to quantum mechanics. We just either haven't figured out how to harness that energy, or it's a well-guarded secret.

I suggest reading the thread I posted on the other forum. Read about the MAHG, and read about John Hutchinson.

lethalfang
August 1st, 2005, 01:20 AM
I think the uncertaintly principle conflicts with thermodynamics. According to thermodynamics, energy will contine decreasing until it reaches zero. According to the uncertainty principle, the ground state can never be zero. There are constant electromagnetic fluctuations occuring throughout the universe. So, energy truly is infinite according to quantum mechanics. We just either haven't figured out how to harness that energy, or it's a well-guarded secret.

I suggest reading the thread I posted on the other forum. Read about the MAHG, and read about John Hutchinson.
The uncertainty principle does not contradict laws of thermodynamics.
IN FACT, thermodynamic equation can be directly derived from quantum mechanics containing uncertainty principle. Thermodynamics and quantum mechanics are directly linked by an area of study called statistical mechanics. Quantum mechanics deals with a small number of particles or single particles. Thermodynamics governs how a system containing large number of quantum mechanical particles will behave. They are not seperate fields.
Thermodynamics does not say energy will decrease. It says energy will equilibrate, i.e. if you mix a substance of high temperature with a substance of low temperature, over time, the temperature of the two substances will be the same. If that total system is a closed system, total internal energy will be same before and after. Before the system equilibrates, you can extract work. When the system reaches equilibrium, that system can no longer do work but it still contains energy of maximum entropy.
Total mass-energy is conserved. It never goes to zero. In fact, it never changes.
IMHO, it is absolutely ludicrous to say such thing is a well-guard secret and some people are conspiring to keep it hush. Tens of thousands of scientists, researchers, and university professors, some of whom are my colleagues, are experts in theoratical thermodynamics and quantum mechanics. Every single one of them knows that if they can even present a theoratical equation demonstrating the possibility of perpetual work or perpetual motor, they will be regarded as Albert Einstein of the new millennium.

Loaf
August 1st, 2005, 03:41 AM
i think the U.s goverment would cover it up, they don't want anyone else getting it would they now

lethalfang
August 1st, 2005, 11:48 AM
i think the U.s goverment would cover it up, they don't want anyone else getting it would they now
US government has no ability trying to silence tens of thousands of independent scientists around the world in terms of theoratical physics. The economy and wealth one can build around perpetual motor and infinite energy is perpetual and infinite. It's ridiculous to think US gov't would want to, or actually have the ability to do so.
What is the point, anyway? It's not like anyone can go out and build the machine tomorrow and destroy oil company's profits. If anything, this is the kind of technology energy companies will want to invest in their research.
The problem is, it is impossible.

Falconoffury
August 1st, 2005, 12:07 PM
The uncertainty principle shows us that energy at its ground state is not constant, but fluctuating. This is probably not enough energy to power anything but a microscopic motor, but zero point energy exists. These fluctuations can possibly be used for work, but this is such a small amount of power that it may only be able to power nanotechnology.

I'm not saying that zero point energy is going to be powering cars or any kind of motor that can be seen with the naked eye, but it may one day be used to power microscopic devices or small batteries that take years to charge. Zero point energy is infinite, but the limitations on it's power compared to fossil fuels, nuclear, etc, are extreme. It's a limited source of power. I don't see why that's so hard to even consider.

lethalfang
August 1st, 2005, 12:34 PM
The uncertainty principle shows us that energy at its ground state is not constant, but fluctuating. This is probably not enough energy to power anything but a microscopic motor, but zero point energy exists. These fluctuations can possibly be used for work, but this is such a small amount of power that it may only be able to power nanotechnology.

I'm not saying that zero point energy is going to be powering cars or any kind of motor that can be seen with the naked eye, but it may one day be used to power microscopic devices or small batteries that take years to charge. Zero point energy is infinite, but the limitations on it's power compared to fossil fuels, nuclear, etc, are extreme. It's a limited source of power. I don't see why that's so hard to even consider.
Energy of any real system is fluctuating.
Work, however, is a thermodynamic term.
Fluctuation is random and it is a microscopic. The fluctuation in energy of a system, for instance, is directly proportional to its heat capacity. Work, on the other hand, is a macroscopic concept and it has directions. When you go from microscopic scale to macroscopic scale, you use statistical mechancis, and it has been shown over and over that you cannot extract work from an equilibrium system.
You can call zero point energy whatever you want. Energy is an additive quantity. Zero point energy is like the constant "C" when you do an indefinite integral. It's there, but it cannot do work, because as I have said before, for a system to do work, the system will release energy and goes to a lower energy state.

Loaf
August 1st, 2005, 12:42 PM
you 2 are very clever :S

_Owen_
August 1st, 2005, 07:18 PM
Lol, this discussion has gone on too far now, I don't think I should jump in, so I will just admire your posts, they are very intelligent and well written.

Owen Macri

LtColCarter
October 11th, 2005, 10:52 AM
If a ZPM uses zero point energy, then it technically wouldn't ever truly run out of energy. The battery may run dry, but it would be able to recharge itself by extracting energy from space. I just thought that was something never mentioned when discussing ZPMs in the show.

Why then were the ZPMs depleated when the team arrived at Atlantis?

Hermiod
October 11th, 2005, 11:41 AM
The ZPM's are not a source of infinite energy. They extract vacuum energy derived from selfcontained region of subspacetime. Since the region is contained, that means it's a finite region of spacetime and therefore only a finite amount of energy could exist in it.