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GateWorld
July 26th, 2005, 06:52 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/2062.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px solid black" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888">GALACTICA SEASON TWO</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">HOME, PART 1</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 206</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
Lee joins President Roslin and Tom Zarek in a separatist fleet determined to explore Kobol, forcing Commander Adama to find a new flight leader for the Galactica.

<FONT SIZE=1><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
August 19th, 2005, 08:41 PM
Best episode so far this season (Fragged 2nd best)
Sweet ending

CKO
August 19th, 2005, 09:00 PM
damn TBC ;)

loved the eppy..

the shipper in me was frakkin' celebrating :)

i loved the lee/kara kiss and him tellin' her that he loves her

so much happenin' so little time. cant wait for next wks eppy as its also gonna frakkin' kick some major ass as well.

meimei
August 19th, 2005, 09:03 PM
Best episode so far this season (Fragged 2nd best)
Sweet ending
Sweet?? Sweet????? Well, yeah, sweet with Dee... She's cool...

That was the most nail biting episode yet! And the priest... Well, crap! *pouts* I really liked her!!

I think there is going to be serious difficulty in living until next Friday!!!!!! The previews were just, just, just... ARGH!!!!!

I knew I should have just started taping the season and then watch them all when it was over!

Liebestraume
August 19th, 2005, 09:14 PM
Absolutely my favorite episode this season -- or have I used this line before? :p In any case, I love this show! :)

Maybe coherent thoughts will return to me later. At this moment, all I can say is: druggie or not, Laura, you are my hero. :D

Mr. Seven
August 19th, 2005, 09:25 PM
I'd say that The Farm was the best episode yet IMO, followed by Fragged..ah hell this one was awesome too it's a tough call.

I did like all the LeexKara scenes, she's such a player it's good to see a woman in that role rather than a man for a change.

Although that screen cap with them kissing is going to show up on various shippers sigs I would imagine. ;)

Zarek..man I hope one of the Adama's cap him and his character actor henchman.

Oh and what a nice first conversation for Helo and Apollo.

It's going to be a long week.

larocque6689
August 19th, 2005, 09:58 PM
Here's this week's podcast excerpts. Portions spoken by David Eick are indicated with "DE".

--

This couple of episodes now is the culmination of all the arcs that began in season one. And in a very real sense, "Home" is the completion of the entire first season. After the conclusion of "Home, Part 2" you'll see that we begin different stories, there's more self-contained episodes, different story arcs begin. This is where it all comes to a conclusion. There was just too much material to wrap up. What we kept running into was, we could get through the plot in a one hour script, but you were missing all the fun of doing it. You were missing seeing Starbuck and Apollo reunite, you were missing Laura and Adama reunite, you were missing all the character interactions that the show is about. And it was a universally held feeling that we were just trying to do too much in one episode. And the network and the studio agreed, and so we had enough time to split this into two parts.

--

The kiss was Jamie's idea. Jamie was watching me do a rewrite on the set. That's how pathetic this process became. I was sitting on the set with my laptop doing rewrites while we were shooting episode four. Jamie was standing over my shoulder reading the return scene, [and] he said to me, "I should kiss her, we should kiss" or something like that. And I went, "oh my god, that's great." And so, I just wrote a version of it, and it made it all the way through the process. DE

--

It's a very untradiional kind of storyling that we're following. It's not that Adama is facing a crisis back on Galactica. He's not facing down the Cylons, the ship is not going to explode, he's not even going through an internal crisis or something. He's trying to move on, and representative of him trhing to move on is that someone has to be the new CAG, and bring in this guy who seemingly is everything you want the CAG to be, and he falls short.

--

This scene had a very literal godfather, which was a great moment in history, actually, where Al Haig takes the microphone at the podium, "I'm in charge." Here's a guy who's not in his right element here, and it was really just intended to speak to the absence of Laura Roslin. This is what she normally does. (DE)

--

The only inspiration for the [scene] was my wife and I took a trip to Alaska a year ago, and there was a bridge where we stood on and looked down on in the salmon spawning area. It was one of those really evocative images, you're looking at a very shallow river bed, and there were so many fish you couldn't even deal with it. It was just really bizarre and strange, and half of them were dying and spawning, and it was just like this weird life and death kind of place. From that, there was a sense of looking out at this other, these fish, that weren't really like you, and had this whole other world going on. I think it was interesting to suggest that Baltar is moving into a place where he was starting to look at humanity that way, where he was starting to look around and go, "I'm not really part of these guys any more."

--

What we're starting to say about Laura is that she's willing to say whatever she has to, to the Cylons. Again, she promised another Cylon, "Oh, don't worry, if you just do X, Y and Z, you'll be fine." And as soon as the guns come down, it's like toss her out the airlock. And Mary bridles a little bit against that because I think Mary is a person would never do that. She's not someone who would lie to your face and kill you. She's also concerned that Laura not be portrayed as duplicitous. But it felt right that you want your president to do ugly things every once in a while. There's a sense that we elected this person to make decisions for us that maybe we're afraid to make for ourselves.

--

And [Elosha's death is] really necessary in a way, because you're telling a story about the costs in blood for Laura to make this decision to go to Kobol and divide the fleet... And because Laura's role as the "prophet", or seer in the story, is about to reach a conclusion and spin the character in a different direction, back to a position of governance, and back to a position where she's got a more supportive dynamic with Adama, it seemed right that metaphorically you would kill the person who represented that chapter of her life. The priestess who she had depended upon, who had been her guide through this experience is someone she is no longer going to have in her life. DE

--

I love this leather jacket that they dug up for Tom Zarek. That's such a great little piece of wardrobe that just has added quite a bit to his character, in some sense. It's so anti-Apollo. It's vaguely sort of Nazi. You can put an SS cap on and it wouldn't look too out of place.

--

The thing about Richard is that he really is a completely different character in this. He's someone who is, as many of you know, was a very outspoken opponent of the reimagining of this show, and came full circle and elected to embrace it. And it didn't hurt that he was given a very compelling role that started last season. This guy shows up, he's the consumate professional, hits his marks, knows his lines, takes direction well. He may not be seen again for several episodes. You never hear from his people, you never get complaints, there's never any questions about "why aren't I in more of them?" I think he understands that in some respects, a little of his character goes a long way. (DE)

--

There's a scene coming up later where Adama is in his quarters with Dualla, and they're having a sort of heart to heart... It was supposed to be an escalation. It was supposed to be heart to heart scene with Dualla, and then he goes into CIC and the whole Birch thing blows up. And David said, we really didn't want that scene to be the straw to broke the camel's back any more. And it felt better that Dualla, the more heartfelt scene is the one that tips him over the edge ultimately. So we swapped the scene order in the editing room.

--

We forced the sound mixers to reprise a music cue we used one time last season and hadn't used at all this season, which is this Irish brogue from episode 110 ("The Hand of God"). And it seemed to me that it would be useful to do a simplified version of that starting here. So where you start with the drums you, and you start to hear the men humming, I just wanted this very masculine quality to his decision, because it is a magical thing we're doing. We're saying Adama of his own volition arrives at this very profound conclusion about what they're going to do. And it felt like it earned the right to have some sort of martial theme to it. (DE)

Magniopi
August 19th, 2005, 10:20 PM
There was sound with the explosions (and impacts) in space this episode. Has there been sound in space in previous episodes? I know we could always hear the guns firing, but external explosions?

Overall, I thought the episode was great, but the sound in space really threw me in a very negative way. Has it always been there? Maybe I've just seen too many Firefly episodes lately, but I love Galactica and I thought they did space correctly too?

CKO
August 19th, 2005, 10:28 PM
wow.. the kiss was Jamies idea... thats so very cool ;)

Carbito
August 19th, 2005, 10:53 PM
Great episode, I'm so glad that the fleet is going to get back together at last. I can't wait till next week.

Shipperahoy
August 19th, 2005, 11:37 PM
I am such a happy little shipper right now. And I can't say enough how much I love how the actors involved are both for it and are not afraid to say publically that they are for it. I loved the stuff between Sharon and Helo too. I'm still not entirely sure about Sharon (and I'm sure that that's the way it's supposed to be) but I'm really pulling for those 2 crazy kids.

LoneStar1836
August 20th, 2005, 12:10 AM
Adama needs to get the fleet back together before he self-destructs. His internal rage over Lee was blinding him like Tigh’s drinking. Adama is just going to have to swallow his pride and do what’s best for everyone.

Go Dee! I loved that scene with her and Adama near the end. For a second there I was worried she had/or was going to tell him that she had helped Lee. Even Gaeta was telling Adama like it was – in regards to the new CAG.

Wow. Roslin using a threat to space Helo to force cooperation. I wouldn’t be surprised if she didn’t really mean it. You can’t accuse Roslin of not doing what she thinks it takes to get the job done. She is no PC president. I love her for that. As far as nearly spacing Boomer, eh, she had already lied to another one and then spaced him…..

Hehe. I know my personal view of the press colors how I see the press on BSG (I don’t care for them) so I loved when the guy stood up to accuse Adama of being a liar and when Adama approached him, he quickly sat back down. :D Course I don’t condone Adama threatening to throw people in the brig for expressing opinions even though I’d want to do the same thing. People in positions of power open themselves up to all kinds of attacks. It’s part of the job. And yes I know Adama is lying, but he has his reasons. The exact same reasons Roslin has for lying about her impending death.

Starbuck tossing the Pyramid ball reminded me of Steve McQueen in “The Great Escape” and ha, they’re on a prison transport ship. Ok, I’m not exactly sure I want to know why Lee smelled it though….. I’ll just go with it was akin to the act of smelling an old baseball glove..…;)

Glad Kara reminded him that his “halo” wasn’t so shiny any more.

I was so worried that Hotdog was about to buy it because of the new CAG. Yeah, I didn’t want Kat to die either but I like Hotdog and am fearful that the day will come when they kill the poor kid off. He may be EJO’s son, but that doesn’t mean that the actor isn’t expendable.

Dang. In a way I hope that they don’t kill Zarek next week (for some reason I have a feeling that that is a strong possibility) cause he makes for an interesting bad guy, but on the other hand, I want that guy gone. I can’t accuse Adama of purposely seeking to make himself into a “dictator.” Zarek on the other hand has those aspirations, imo. “The man with the guns makes the rules.” He just wants to use Roslin to his own advantage like I have believed all along. He espouses that he’s doing it to preserve the liberties and freedoms of the fleet, but I don’t buy it.

Overall, a great episode, though they kind of drug it out with pointing out that the new CAG was an irresponsible choice.

NOOOO……I can’t wait an entire week for the conclusion……… :D

Carbito
August 20th, 2005, 01:23 AM
Dang. In a way I hope that they don’t kill Zarek next week (for some reason I have a feeling that that is a strong possibility) cause he makes for an interesting bad guy, but on the other hand, I want that guy gone

I don't think that they will kill Zarek any time soon, I have the feeling that his character will play a much more important and continued role in the future. I'm sure that the writers must have some interesting plot line involving Zarek and his fight for power when the President dies, which hopefully will no be any time too soon.

Easter Lily
August 20th, 2005, 04:56 AM
So where is Home... is it a place... or is it where people who care about each other come together and make a place for themselves? Or is it simply a place of familiarity and regularity. It's interesting that "family" is synonymous with "home" here and as dysfunctional as this family is, it gives its members a raison de'tre. When the fleet is divided... loyalties are divided, the raison de'tre is ripped from its soul and the desire to continue on the journey is lessened. Why survive when the reason for pushing ahead no longer exists?

Adama returns to work... but work is no longer home... The home that he thought he fostered is now a divided house. He cannot hide his disappointment... the people he loves and trusts left his side and took a path that was not of his choosing. Like the father who is experiencing the "empty nest"... he feels alone in his grief and the grief turns to anger. In his anger he chooses a successor to the son that left but deep inside he knows that he is "no Apollo".

The son also is not home... he is among strangers... True, he is with the mother-figure... and is reunited with an old friend. But he is not trusted and not safe from the strategems of those who fear the son and his bond with the mother-figure. Even while the father is not there... he is reminded of home, ironically by a cylon. He talks to his old friend of home... Caprica... a place that once was but now no longer is... home...

The cylon wants to have a home also... she has fallen in love with a man and wants to bear his child. She does all she can to make herself worthy of "home".

The dying leader is driven by one goal... to lead everyone to their final home... She cannot rest... she is "committed".

No one as yet has come home... but perhaps next week they will... ;)

Mr. Seven
August 20th, 2005, 05:49 AM
Yeah I don't think Zarek is going anywhere anytime soon. I wonder if he knows that he was playing the role of Apollo before as well..

microzstar
August 20th, 2005, 07:57 AM
I am such a happy little shipper right now.

ME TOO. Wow, that was absolutely amazing. I loved L/K's banter and him kind of letting it slip that he loves her... it was an interesting scene because you could tell Kara was being sulky about Anders, and that Lee was very confused. But by now, Lee has of course realized that he loves Kara, and when he let it slip, she picked up on it and I think she realized that she shouldn't be focused on Anders so much, because he's out of the picture for the time being, and Lee is right there, in love with her. They were so cutteeeee!

I also loved on Kobol, when they were shooting Centurions together *squeals*

Liebestraume
August 20th, 2005, 09:52 AM
So where is Home... "Home is where the heart is," there goes the saying. It's an old cliche, no doubt, but it would not have been a cliche if it hasn't been repeated so often. And, it would not have been repeated so often, had it not a lot of truth in it. As it were in this episode.

There was a small scene that really struck me: when Adama was telling Tigh and the new CAG about the ship being a family, he glanced down to a picture of his two sons. It spoke of so much loss, for Lee was now as dead to him as Zak had ever been. It also underscored his emotional state; from past experience. we know he doesn't make the best command decisions when his (immediate) family was involved.

Small scenes like this is how BSG reveals characters' flaws while endearing them to us at the same time. It is especially true in the case of Adama who, in a lesser hand would have become the archetypical "wise old man" -- all pathos but deviod of true feelings. This is why he managed to garner my sympathy in his "fight" with Roslin, even though I firmly believe he was wrong to summarily dispose the democratically elected president.

The lack of sympathy for Roslin is more than made up by my tremendous respect for her personal courage and commitment. (I still believe) it was wrong of her to go to such length to act on a particular brand of religious belief while being the governer of all people, no one can fault her for lack of rationalism (in tactics) or personal cowardice. As for her leadership, I believe LoneStar said it best,
She is no PC president. I love her for that.
As for the younger generation, totally loved that "7-year-olds-on-playground" scene. And wondered what Freud would have made that Pyrimid ball. ...
Ok, I’m not exactly sure I want to know why Lee smelled it though….. I’ll just go with it was akin to the act of smelling an old baseball glove..… ;) ... and wonder why you are not exactly sure you want to know ;). Yeah, much better to think he was trying to remember the smell of home.

I like practically all types of Lee/Kara interactions -- from fighting by each other, to fighting with each other, to just goofing off -- because I really buy their friendship. Not just the comradery borne out of military service together, nor some codependency because each can't function without the other. They just seem enjoying being with each other, and being themselves when with the other. It is rather ... sweet. :)


No one as yet has come home... but perhaps next week they will... ;)I am far frae my hame, an' i'm weary aften whiles,
For the longed-for hame-bringing an' my Father's welcome smiles.
- E. W. Ellsworth

(and, no more cliches, I promise :p)

FeloniousMonk
August 20th, 2005, 10:43 AM
that kiss was an embarrassing moment. what a doofus

lol adama sucks at press conferences. helo's a dumbass

Liebestraume
August 20th, 2005, 10:54 AM
that kiss was an embarrassing moment. what a doofus Embarrassing for whom?

Well, granted he was rather ... enthusiastic about the reunion (well, actually they both were), but sometimes instincts just take over. Ain't nothin' wrong with that. :cool:

Besides, no one abroad Astral Queen (was it?) seemed to think it embarrassing.

Agree the point about Helo, though. :D

microzstar
August 20th, 2005, 11:06 AM
Starbuck tossing the Pyramid ball reminded me of Steve McQueen in “The Great Escape” and ha, they’re on a prison transport ship. Ok, I’m not exactly sure I want to know why Lee smelled it though….. I’ll just go with it was akin to the act of smelling an old baseball glove..…;)

You know what? (And this is just my opinion) but I think he smelled Anders... heehee. I mean, like come on. Apollo caught a whiff and was like WHOA OTHER MAN SMELL and... I don't know. That's just how I explained it. Because then we see Starbuck looking away like "Ummmm yes, I hope he didn't just smell what I think he just smelled."

Wow, I really can't wait until the next episode... I can't believe I have to wait a whole week! Aaaah....

FeloniousMonk
August 20th, 2005, 11:26 AM
Embarrassing for whom?

Notice her reaction? Doesn't look like it was expected or welcomed. The "i love you" scene was written by a sixth grade girl, it seems.

also, may get lynched for this but he's kind of a pansy.

Gargen
August 20th, 2005, 11:32 AM
i thought from the preview that the whole putting the fleet back together was adama was gonna go kick the presidents ass not join her

LoneStar1836
August 20th, 2005, 11:53 AM
There was a small scene that really struck me: when Adama was telling Tigh and the new CAG about the ship being a family, he glanced down to a picture of his two sons. It spoke of so much loss, for Lee was now as dead to him as Zak had ever been.That was such an effective scene. For Adama to consider Lee dead to him.......wow.......that's what I love about this show....all the little touches in the dialogue and character details that make the characters seem so real that you can almost feel their pain.

You know what? (And this is just my opinion) but I think he smelled Anders... heehee.LOL! :D Yes, for the briefest of seconds that thought crossed my mind as well, but I’m sticking with the baseball glove comparison ("Field of Dreams" is one of my all-time favorite movies) – he was trying to recapture the smell of home.

And wondered what Freud would have made that Pyrimid ball. ...... and wonder why you are not exactly sure you want to know ;)Hehe. Freud can go psychoanalyze someone else. :P:D

saapad
August 20th, 2005, 04:04 PM
<i>"You know what? (And this is just my opinion) but I think he smelled Anders"</i>

Yeah, that's exactly what I figured as well. But the "smell of home" explanation also makes sense.

Anyway, I thought the episode was excellent as always, with some very powerful scenes.

The Lee/Sharon scenes were fantastic. When he first saw her come around the corner the camera slowed, and the interesting thing is that she was looking nervously at him and him alone (as if expecting the ensuing outburst). The gun wasn't simply held to her head but pushed painfully against her cheek, which you could see clearly.

Some interesting revelations about Sharon and the cylons that relate to my conjectures following last week's episode (see the thread for "Farm"). First, Sharon "chose" to be here, indicating her autonomy on some level. Seondly (and more importantly), she mentioned to Lee that "It doesn't work like that. I'm not wired in." There's no Borg drone thing going on here, nor is there any shared consciousness. Which makes me wonder about the supposed information download following death - are they lying, or is that the only circumstance in which a direct link between the cylon body and a central repository be made (i.e. they can only be "wired in" if they are unconscious/dead).

The bungling of the new CAG was hilarious (btw: what does CAG stand for?). It made a good theme for the Galactica story during this episode (as opposed to the Kobol story) - there was no Cylon-induced emergency, nor mutiny in the crew, nor anything that would have brought the characters into severe pressure and discomfort, and yet there it was. The podcast talks about this episode showing Bill Adama's inability to "move on," and I totally agree that this was the best way to portray it.

Also an interesting thing I noticed about Saul Tigh. Is it just me or has Saul benefitted somewhat from his stint as Commander? He seemed much more comfortable in his role as Adama's second this episode (as opposed to certain circumstances in Season 1, and especially the occasion in the Mini-Series with Chief Tyrol and the order to vent the decks on fire). He even questioned Adama's decision at one point (which was somewhat unexpected given his hero-worship in the first few episodes of this season). The fact that he was annoyed Adama had already chosen a new CAG before asking for his suggestion reveals that Saul has something of his own mind now (which is good). I really think the Commander stint was a turning point for Saul's career and his own commanding abilities. Although he totally bungled the job, there's no doubt that he gained something very concrete from it.

The "family" theme and the heart-to-heart with Dee was probably the best part of the episode. If you remember the podcast from previous weeks, RDM mentioned that after the shooting incident Adama felt more "down to earth" (EJO even said it aloud last episode). RDM went on to say that for a brief period following his return, Adama would display more sentimentality and emotion than his character is accustomed to (as is evidenced by his announcement on the bridge on his return, and his crying over GBoomer's body at the end of the episode). Although Dee's conversation with him was significant, I think it's this that plays more of a role in his decision at the end of this episode to reunite the fleet - something that the old Adama would never have done. I purposely turned off the TV before they showed previews for next week, but I imagine that there'll be some loss of face for him and the rest of Galactica, or at least a display of weakness. The old Adama would never have backed down from a decision that he believed was right, but this Adama is willing to take the shot to his pride in the interests of the fleet, and most importantly, his Galactica family (remember, his feelings for Kara are also very strong and family-like).

The repoter scene was interesting, when the reporter asked him if it was true he had made up all that nonsense about Earth. It makes sense, because if he was the one who initially put out the idea, how is it that he wasn't at all enthusiastic about supporting Roslin with her Kobol objectives? That's how it would appear the the fleet, and the only conclusion they could reach is that it's all nonsense. And ironically, that conclusion seems to be closer to the truth than Adama is willing to admit (see discussion at the end of Mini-Series between Roslin and Adama).

Anyway, gotta go now. More later (yes, there's more).

FeloniousMonk
August 20th, 2005, 04:59 PM
Commander, Air Group

Nessauk
August 21st, 2005, 01:26 AM
helo's a dumbass

Why? Because he fell in love with a Cylon? Does that mean that Chief Tyrol is a dumbass too?

kiwigater
August 21st, 2005, 02:58 AM
They DO delight in torturing me don't they :S ANOTHER "to be continued" :eek:

yeah, my inner shipper was sqeeing at the Kara-Lee stuff :D Except now of course I want MOOOOREEEE :D :D :D :o :D :D

I was so happy when Adama said he was gonna reunite the fleet - I really hope it's in a good way, more conflict is so not what they need right now.

I couldn't help thinking when watching the previews for next week "Oh god, not AGAIN" at the bit with Sharon saying " You take the son, I'll take the Father" ..... :S I'm not delusional right, she did say that, promptly followed by a clip of Sharon rounding on the Old Man with a gun.... again.... :eek: WAAAA!

Easter Lily
August 21st, 2005, 04:50 AM
Why? Because he fell in love with a Cylon? Does that mean that Chief Tyrol is a dumbass too?

I think I prefer the word "naive"... Naive to think that the rest of the fleet would have forgotten the act of genocide that the cylons committed, naive to think that the remnants of humanity would just allow a cylon to live among them without some degree of prejudice and naive to think that the cylon would not be looked on with hatred.
He forgot about his own initial reaction, which was to run and then reach out for his sidearm.

Easter Lily
August 21st, 2005, 05:00 AM
I've been watching the miniseries and I noticed that Dee was also in some way instrumental in getting Adama to change his mind about leaving the civillians behind.
Don't know if it was an intentional recurring motif but I thought that was interesting.
The old man seems to have a soft spot for his crew, doesn't he? He really does see them as family. That's why Roslin, Lee and Kara's "betrayal" hit so hard... because he does take it all so personally.

Nessauk
August 21st, 2005, 05:29 AM
I don't think I could say he was naive or a dumbass, or whatever context people choose to take. Helo was unfortunate that he didn't know Boomer was a Cylon prior to them developing a relationship, plus he's now tied to the knowledge that she is carrying his baby.

For Lee it was easy for him to out his sidearm. Lee's only current emotional attachment to the Cylons (esp Boomer) is vengence over the shooting of his father. Helo on the other hand now has the emotional attachment that Boomer is carrying his child. If I was him, or you put yourself in the situation where the mother of your child was not the person you thought they were, I don't think I could go through the act of killing that individual -after all its not the fault of the child. I'd like to think that if he was to meet another Boomer, or indeed if Boomer hadn't fallen pregnant, then he'd have done the smart thing and shot her.

Liebestraume
August 21st, 2005, 09:16 AM
I don't think I could say he was naive or a dumbass, or whatever context people choose to take. Helo was unfortunate that he didn't know Boomer was a Cylon prior to them developing a relationship, plus he's now tied to the knowledge that she is carrying his baby. I think Easter Lily's point is this
He forgot about his own initial reaction, which was to run and then reach out for his sidearm.His initial reaction was human, while his current is a man in love. While the rest of humanity shares his, well, humanity, they don't share his love. For him not to realize this is indeed ... unwise. ;)


Notice her reaction? Doesn't look like it was expected or welcomed.Unexpected, to be sure, sinec they've never done it before. Well, not conciously anyways, since we've known she'd done more than that in her mind. ;) But, does this (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/CKOCOSG2/bsg206192.jpg) look unwelcomed by her? :D


also, may get lynched for this but he's kind of a pansy.Nah, no one around here is lynched for expressing an opinion. Now, not being able to properly support it might be an entirely different matter. :p

FeloniousMonk
August 21st, 2005, 10:18 AM
Why? Because he fell in love with a Cylon? Does that mean that Chief Tyrol is a dumbass too?
Because the only reason he's latching onto her like this is because he had to sit back and see her with the chief for so long. Probably been pining for her for years and likely been "friend-zoned" for just as long. Whether or not he actually loved the Boomer he thought he knew, this attatchment because she claims to be pregnant is ridiculous. He's taking advantage of the opportunity because he knows it's the only way he'll have the woman he's seen with another man for years. In sci-fi it's called romance, in real life it's called pathetic.

Mr. Seven
August 21st, 2005, 10:23 AM
Not really. Take a look at Boomer. Hell take a look at any of the women on this show and it's not so pathetic to act like Helo, Apollo, Tyrol, etc.. are.

FeloniousMonk
August 21st, 2005, 10:32 AM
I think Easter Lily's point is this His initial reaction was human, while his current is a man in love. While the rest of humanity shares his, well, humanity, they don't share his love. For him not to realize this is indeed ... unwise. ;)

Unexpected, to be sure, sinec they've never done it before. Well, not conciously anyways, since we've known she'd done more than that in her mind. ;) But, does this (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/CKOCOSG2/bsg206192.jpg) look unwelcomed by her? :D

Nah, no one around here is lynched for expressing an opinion. Now, not being able to properly support it might be an entirely different matter. :p Yes it looks unwelcomed! What was the first thing she did when he initiated the kiss? She pulled back, pushed him away, said "Good to see you too, Captain." She emphasized the rank for a reason, to remind him that she was hugging him as a friend and fellow officer, not a lover. The look on her face was certainly not one of appreciation. Unless Sackhoff acted the scene wrong, it was readily apparent she wasn't pleased with what he did.


Well, Barber's high pitched voice and pale skin notwithstanding, the character isn't written as a pansy around Starbuck. That talk they had was, like Helo's obsession with a machine that is just as likely lying to him, pathetic. It felt like I was watching a nerdy freshman trying to swoon over a vulnerable cheerleader by being "a nice guy". Looks like Apollo's had a thing for Starbuck since before Zak died...."if you wanna talk, I'm here for you" is such a cheesy line.

Not to say that he's not a man of his convictions (though it seems kinda ****ed up that he was doing what he did to support a democracy that, right before his eyes, is turning into a theocracy) but between the two Starbuck is easily the more masculine character.

FeloniousMonk
August 21st, 2005, 10:36 AM
Not really. Take a look at Boomer. Hell take a look at any of the women on this show and it's not so pathetic to act like Helo, Apollo, Tyrol, etc.. are.
yes because looks are certainly everything ;)

Tyrol is one thing. They had a relationship, he loved his Sharon and knew that she loved him back. What he feels now is confusion and betrayal. It's hard to let go of something like that. But Helo seems like he was always the guy watching Sharon out of the corner of his eye, wishing it was him instead of the chief. So hey, look how convenient this is. Now there's enough Sharon's for everyone to he latches on as if his life depended on it.

And like Starbuck said, guys can be unimaginably stupid sometimes. They have NO proof whatsoever that she's actually pregnant and even if she was they should've shot her back on Caprica (though it wouldn't have served the story well, I know :p ).

Ariadne
August 21st, 2005, 01:04 PM
Yeah right! What you people are trying to say in oh so many replies to quote is that these guys can't tell the difference between a Cylon and a human woman. They ARE HUMAN you putzes!!!

Their minds were designed to act like humans. They bleed. They sweat. They turn red when they're horny. THEY ARE HUMAN!!!! I couldn't tell the difference if they had a big neon sign on their backs.... oh they do!, don't they? It's ridiculous to judge the way these people's reactions were written when the entire circumstance is SCIENCE FICTION!!!

OH! and as far as Apollo being a pansy? He is because Jamie Bamber looks like a 15-year-old, as bald or ruggedly handsome. If Anders had said it, NO ONE would call him a pansy because he looks like the hunky hulk. It's a casting thing.

But true fans know, we love our new Apollo and we wouldn't change him for the world. ^_^

--Grace

And the kiss rocked. No one can challenge me there. As the queen of shippers, yeah... well done. Had nothing to do with plot. Now that's how a good shipper is made.

FeloniousMonk
August 21st, 2005, 01:44 PM
Human or not it doesn't change the fact that Helo's attraction stems from him not being able to hook up with the Boomer he knew. Again, the pregnancy should be a non-issue because only a complete fool thinking with the wrong head believes a woman claiming "I'm carrying your child" when her entire family is known for their deception. Could she at least pee on a stick and prove to them that she's pregnant? Nah, he just buys it. Human, Cylon, whatever, it's still a really bad choice. If Sharon was a human simply aiding the Cylons I'd have the exact same opinion. Helo finally gets the girl he's been pining for.


I wouldn't call Anders a pansy because his character wouldn't say that. His and Starbuck's goodbye scene was a bit overplayed but in my opinion that was just the writers trying to fill time for some reason. But Apollo was acting like a neutered puppy; believe me, I've been the "nice guy" more times than I care to remember so I can spot the feebleness a mile away. The point is that Starbuck seems like more of a man than Apollo and that's a really disturbing thought.

I dunno if y'all were watching the same episode I was but the look on her face and the first thing coming out of her mouth seemed very apparent that he should not have done that, especially in front of a crowd.

Easter Lily
August 21st, 2005, 02:39 PM
Yes it looks unwelcomed! What was the first thing she did when he initiated the kiss? She pulled back, pushed him away, said "Good to see you too, Captain." She emphasized the rank for a reason, to remind him that she was hugging him as a friend and fellow officer, not a lover. The look on her face was certainly not one of appreciation. Unless Sackhoff acted the scene wrong, it was readily apparent she wasn't pleased with what he did.
Well, I've looked at the scene several times over (and the husband can testify to that ;) ) and while she does pull back in surprise, she certainly doesn't push him away. (Just rechecked... and she even gives him a little smile) In fact she looks to be still holding on to him until the President makes her approach and then she turns around slightly (and somewhat reluctantly) to look at the Roslin. But as far as her body language is concerned... she didn't give me any sense that she was displeased, just taken aback. Her hands are still on his shoulders until Roslin walks up to her. It seems to me that her attempt at a bit of humour suggests something more along the lines of "My, my what have we here?" Throughout their little banter, their proximity is maintained.
Actually I read in an interview in which Katee Sackhoff claims that when she has a scene with Apollo, she tells herself, "You're in love with this guy" and acts accordingly.



Well, Barber's high pitched voice and pale skin notwithstanding, the character isn't written as a pansy around Starbuck. That talk they had was, like Helo's obsession with a machine that is just as likely lying to him, pathetic. It felt like I was watching a nerdy freshman trying to swoon over a vulnerable cheerleader by being "a nice guy". Looks like Apollo's had a thing for Starbuck since before Zak died...."if you wanna talk, I'm here for you" is such a cheesy line.

Not to say that he's not a man of his convictions (though it seems kinda ****ed up that he was doing what he did to support a democracy that, right before his eyes, is turning into a theocracy) but between the two Starbuck is easily the more masculine character.
Well, I don't disagree that Jamie Bamber has a high-pitched voice which is probably exacerbated by the fact that he has to put on an accent which is not his own. It would have been nice for him to keep his Oxbridge accent but it was not to be. *Sigh*
But I'm not convinced the awkwardness is not deliberate. The man is trying to reach out... but he's not too sure how to do it, so he dances around to "test the waters" as it were. It doesn't suggest that he's a wimp, all it says to me is that he doesn't know how to relate to Kara on an emotional level.
I don't disagree that there is an interesting role reversal with regard to the male Apollo and the female Starbuck with regard to Apollo being the more thoughtful, "nurturing" character and Starbuck being the gungho, military maverick. But that's as far as it goes and it doesn't equate with someone being wimpy. Lee is still very much a leader of men and is full of initiative when the need arises. I think it's rather clever of the writers to play around with the archetypes and yet still not take away from the character's fundamental masculinity.

FeloniousMonk
August 21st, 2005, 03:17 PM
I guess we disagree on both counts because I still see a look of unacceptance on her face in addition to what she says. The near sarcastic way she uses his rank does not, to me, denote affection.

Also, I still think that particular scene (the talk, not the kiss) solidified a wimpy image. Leader of men, yes. I'm not saying he isn't being a good CAG and isn't acting like a man in battle. But his attitude around her is so beyond pathetic that it's not even laughable. Then again maybe I'm reading too much into it but it just seems he's written like a pansy.

Mr. Seven
August 21st, 2005, 03:30 PM
I dunno, I think the reason she didn't like the kiss because she just left Anders behind, so Lee kissing her felt like an intrusion.

If he had done that BEFORE Kobol's Last Gleaming, she would have been all over him.

Easter Lily
August 21st, 2005, 03:37 PM
I don't think I could say he was naive or a dumbass, or whatever context people choose to take. Helo was unfortunate that he didn't know Boomer was a Cylon prior to them developing a relationship, plus he's now tied to the knowledge that she is carrying his baby.

For Lee it was easy for him to out his sidearm. Lee's only current emotional attachment to the Cylons (esp Boomer) is vengence over the shooting of his father. Helo on the other hand now has the emotional attachment that Boomer is carrying his child. If I was him, or you put yourself in the situation where the mother of your child was not the person you thought they were, I don't think I could go through the act of killing that individual -after all its not the fault of the child. I'd like to think that if he was to meet another Boomer, or indeed if Boomer hadn't fallen pregnant, then he'd have done the smart thing and shot her.
I am not totally unsympathetic with Helo's plight and I certainly see your point that he was misled. I like him and feel sorry for him but he has shown himself rather unwise on more than one occasion.
For him to be involved with Sharon while being on the run, in the first place, was to my mind, extremely ill-judged. I have often wondered why he never questioned her once about why having established such a passionate relationship with the chief she would throw herself at him. I think a wiser man would have given this some consideration. I have no doubt he was desperately in love with her... Kara said as much... But for her to change her "preferences" at the drop of a hat should have rang alarm bells. I take Felonious' point that Helo was desperate... and desperate to the point that it has impaired his judgement. (Because as we see, the man is no fool... he afterall did deduce that the cylons were now more human like) But as my mother giving me the benefit of her experience, tells me that even the most capable men in the world can become utter fools when a woman is involved.
Furthermore, as Liebestraume has said, Helo was naive in thinking that just because he is in love with a cylon and that she claims that she's in love with him that everyone would somehow roll over and pretend that the cylons weren't responsible for the almost complete decimation of the human race. I'm with Lee, Roslin and everyone else on this. So far the cylons have proven themselves to be killing machines adept at deception and subterfuge, what's to say that this one is different? There are no guarantees that this Sharon, pregnant or not pregnant, will not turn on them at some point in time and send them all to eternity. Also let's not forget Helo's reaction the first time he discovers that she's a cylon... the man takes off like a rabbit. And when they meet at Delphi, he pulls out his sidearm and gives her a couple of rounds. So it's not like he hasn't thought of it himself.

Incidentally, I do believe she is pregnant... there is the matter of her morning sickness in The Hand of God which is suppose to indicate to us anyway that she's not prevaricating on that point.

Easter Lily
August 21st, 2005, 03:46 PM
I guess we disagree on both counts because I still see a look of unacceptance on her face in addition to what she says. The near sarcastic way she uses his rank does not, to me, denote affection.

Also, I still think that particular scene (the talk, not the kiss) solidified a wimpy image. Leader of men, yes. I'm not saying he isn't being a good CAG and isn't acting like a man in battle. But his attitude around her is so beyond pathetic that it's not even laughable. Then again maybe I'm reading too much into it but it just seems he's written like a pansy.

Well, I don't know about you... but I haven't seen a man who is secretly in love with a woman who isn't just a tad awkward around her. Maybe it is pathetic... maybe it is also human... ;)

FeloniousMonk
August 21st, 2005, 04:47 PM
Well, I don't know about you... but I haven't seen a man who is secretly in love with a woman who isn't just a tad awkward around her. Maybe it is pathetic... maybe it is also human... ;)
It's not about being awkward. Maybe I'm just explaining it wrong but it's almost as if he's trying too hard to get in her pants using the nice guy routine. Up until that scene I didn't see it this way but the kiss and that talk just brought my previous analogy into my mind; the scared little freshman nerd trying to console a vulnerable cheerleader. If y'all can't grasp what I'm trying to convey with that then I'm simply not able to explain it well enough.

It just ruined the character for me, that's all.

Egeria
August 21st, 2005, 05:19 PM
Human or not it doesn't change the fact that Helo's attraction stems from him not being able to hook up with the Boomer he knew. Again, the pregnancy should be a non-issue because only a complete fool thinking with the wrong head believes a woman claiming "I'm carrying your child" when her entire family is known for their deception. Could she at least pee on a stick and prove to them that she's pregnant? Nah, he just buys it.

So Helo's a fool for believing Boomers claims that she's pregnant. I'm sorry but I don't agree. Yes it is an age old practice of women 'trapping' men by false claims of pregnancy, but he's hardly in a position to seek proof. He can't verify her claims cos he isn't walking around with a home pregnancy testing kit. So is he a fool for believing her? What should he do...kill her because of her lineage, taking the chance that there's a high probability that she's lying, or not take the risk, on the slight chance that she might be telling the truth and be carrying his child?

tsaxlady
August 21st, 2005, 05:25 PM
They DO delight in torturing me don't they :S ANOTHER "to be continued" :eek:

yeah, my inner shipper was sqeeing at the Kara-Lee stuff :D Except now of course I want MOOOOREEEE :D :D :D :o :D :D

I was so happy when Adama said he was gonna reunite the fleet - I really hope it's in a good way, more conflict is so not what they need right now.

I couldn't help thinking when watching the previews for next week "Oh god, not AGAIN" at the bit with Sharon saying " You take the son, I'll take the Father" ..... :S I'm not delusional right, she did say that, promptly followed by a clip of Sharon rounding on the Old Man with a gun.... again.... :eek: WAAAA!

Just a guess here but I have a feel that Sharon will turn the gun on Zarek's guy and take him out and save Adama and Apollo

This was my personal favorite episode of the season so far. I'm looking forward to seeing how things play out next week.

FeloniousMonk
August 21st, 2005, 05:47 PM
What should he do...kill her
She's a Cylon, so yes. :) Synthetic organism or not, she's a Cylon. Pregnant or not, she's a Cylon. Granted it wouldn't fare well for the story and certainly not for Grace Park's employment.. :p But a smart man wouldn't have shot her in the shoulder.

Mr. Seven
August 21st, 2005, 06:50 PM
Well she is a human being, so they just can't kill her. She hasn't done anything to Helo or Starbuck that merits killing her.

Her race nuked the 12 colonies, but she didn't press the button.

Easter Lily
August 21st, 2005, 07:07 PM
It's not about being awkward. Maybe I'm just explaining it wrong but it's almost as if he's trying too hard to get in her pants using the nice guy routine. Up until that scene I didn't see it this way but the kiss and that talk just brought my previous analogy into my mind; the scared little freshman nerd trying to console a vulnerable cheerleader. If y'all can't grasp what I'm trying to convey with that then I'm simply not able to explain it well enough.

It just ruined the character for me, that's all.

Oh... I understand what you're trying to say... Even if your analogy applies, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing. Who knows... Apollo maybe hunter and healer in other contexts but not in this... ;)

Maybe it's a girl thing... but I thought it was very sweet...

Well, all we can do is agree to disagree...

Mr. Seven
August 21st, 2005, 09:19 PM
So what do you guys think they'll find in the Tomb of Athena?

I've been thinking, how in the heck could there be a map to Earth from there? I mean a set of FTL jumps might work...

Also, it would be funny if they found a big round thing with weird symbols on it..

Easter Lily
August 21st, 2005, 09:27 PM
So what do you guys think they'll find in the Tomb of Athena?

I've been thinking, how in the heck could there be a map to Earth from there? I mean a set of FTL jumps might work...
Did they actually say something about a map? It could be a puzzle thingy...


Also, it would be funny if they found a big round thing with weird symbols on it..
So you think that the Lords of Kobol are the Ancients, eh? :p

Mr. Seven
August 21st, 2005, 09:40 PM
Adama: Mr. Gaeta, dial the gate.

Gaeta: Chevron one encoded..

SG-BSG -

Apollo
Starbuck
Baltar
Helo

LoneStar1836
August 21st, 2005, 11:56 PM
^^Hehe. Which one is the alien though? :P Every week you get to play guess which one is the Cylon. :D

Warning: Rambling to follow about my thoughts on some things said up thread......

RE: the kiss

I think she was a little surprised especially since it was coming from him. Before that, they spat more like a brother and sister. Sure, they had feelings for each other, but neither admitted as much. Closest Lee had come before to admitting anything (to prossibly even himself) was snapping at Kara about Baltar.

RE: the “locker room” scene or whatever you want to call that….I think he was initially trying to cheer her up (she just wasn’t in the mood to play along) and maybe apologize in a way. He had said that rather biting line to her, “thanks for brining in the trash” and then snapped at her about stealing the raider. After giving up on that, he just directly let her know he was there if and when she felt like talking. It took a lot for him to offer her a shoulder to “cry” on, knowing she’s not the type to open up except on her terms, but he made the offer anyway to show that he cared. Serious stuff has happened to both of them....Poor Lee, I wonder who he's been able to talk to, if anybody yet. Possibly Roslin but I'm not so sure.
But I'm not convinced the awkwardness is not deliberate. The man is trying to reach out... but he's not too sure how to do it, so he dances around to "test the waters" as it were. It doesn't suggest that he's a wimp, all it says to me is that he doesn't know how to relate to Kara on an emotional level.I agree. She closes herself off pretty tight when it comes to the touchy, feely stuff. You don't just barge in and ask her how she's feeling. You might get your neck snapped.

Lee's not an aggressive sort of guy, and he probably still suffers from not having complete confidence in himself, even though he has grown leaps and bounds in that area, especially since last season, which was only what, three weeks ago in the show’s timeline. :D I'm guessing Lee's probably always had a thing for her, but was too shy and unsure of himself to say anything. Zak, probably the more aggressive of the two, swooped in and made his feelings known, leaving Lee in the dust and then his death complicated things even more.

He's a changed man this season after the events of KLG forward...he's grown as a person....but probably not so much on the relationship front. Even after this, I don't see him aggressively pursuing Kara, (though he might be a little more focused in what he wants), and I sure don't see her going after him for fear of opening herself up and being rejected, even if he is the object of her desires.

Heh. My younger brother thinks Lee is a wuss too........ So what if Bamber doesn’t have a deep voice (not that I have a problem with the one he has) …..he makes up for it with those nice arms. ;)

If I were in Roslin’s position, I’d shove Boomer out the airlock as well. It’s the safest thing to do. It may not be the most moral thing to do, but Boomer poses a very credible threat. But she could also possibly give good intel as well if you could trust her. Course I don’t want Boomer to die, but Roslin doesn’t have the benefit of watching the show like I do. :D

Interesting that Baltar slaps himself for not asking GalBoomer about the identities of the 8 Cylons left in the fleet. I wonder if he just wanted to know for his own benefit or would he have informed someone if she had said something. I think he only did that little experiment to see if she would tell the truth since he already knew there were only 8 other models left. Course that doesn’t mean that there isn’t more than one copy hidden within the fleet….. But why would he want to know the identities? I almost read that as a desire to help the humans, but then with him I’m never sure since in that scene he seemed to be distancing himself from them. I guess he just rigged his detector to pass everybody. “No muss, no fuss.”

And while I’m just tossing out random thoughts here…….my interpretation of Dee’s comments.

You let us down. You let us down. You made a promise to all of us... to find earth, to find us a home. Together. It doesn't matter what the President did or even what Lee did, because every day that we remain apart is a day that you've broken your promise. The people aboard those ships made their own decision.I place the emphasis on "together". I don’t think Dee wholeheartedly believes that Adama lied about knowing where Earth is. She may have her doubts, but I don’t think in this excerpt she is accusing him of lying about Earth. To me she is saying that he is reneging on his promise to get them all there together.

So what do you guys think they'll find in the Tomb of Athena?Athena. :P
I've been thinking, how in the heck could there be a map to Earth from there? I mean a set of FTL jumps might work..Well they are supposed “gods” after all….all knowing and all that I guess….

Maybe it’s some old star charts or vague reference to Earth. Could be the first piece to some kind of puzzle where they have to jump around to different areas of space collecting the pieces of the puzzles to form the complete map (course Moore had said he wanted to avoid that whole planet of the week thing). *shrug* Couldn’t be FTL coordinates cause then they’d get there too fast and the show would end. :D Your guess is as good as mine. Obviously, it’s not going to be some map with a big red arrow pointing to a dot saying “Earth here”. :D

Earth will probably be just some random planet that they eventually settle on and proclaim as “Earth”. I don’t think that they will ever find it by show’s end. This show is more about the journey than the destination.

FeloniousMonk
August 22nd, 2005, 08:42 AM
Well she is a human being, so they just can't kill her. She hasn't done anything to Helo or Starbuck that merits killing her.

Her race nuked the 12 colonies, but she didn't press the button.
Then we disagree because I wouldn't see a Cylon as a human being. I don't care if it was brought up to think it was a human, it's still a machine. Artificial intelligence is still artificial, it's still software.

She may not have pressed the button but that's like saying the only person responsible for Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the pilots that actually dropped 'em.

[/two cents] :p

FeloniousMonk
August 22nd, 2005, 08:45 AM
So what if Bamber doesn’t have a deep voice
I know, I know. It's not a big deal :p It's just...humorous. Barber's a damn good actor and when he's yelling at people his voice is a lot more commanding.

yaaayoubetcha
August 22nd, 2005, 10:52 AM
Earth will probably be just some random planet that they eventually settle on and proclaim as “Earth”. I don’t think that they will ever find it by show’s end. This show is more about the journey than the destination.

i agree...i rather think this little arc will end with no revelation of earth...
ros and the gang may find a temple...but there will be no map to earth...

rexpop
August 22nd, 2005, 03:01 PM
i agree...i rather think this little arc will end with no revelation of earth...
ros and the gang may find a temple...but there will be no map to earth...

The way I see it there are a couple of ways that this could pan out:

1) The Tomb does contain the location of Earth. It's probably too far away for a single FTL jump so it would require many years of travel and FTL jumps.

2) The Tomb does contain the location of Earth, however it cannot be deciphered before the Cylons turn up.

3) The Tomb is a fake. The Cylons, knowing the prophecies faked the whole Kobol experience as a way to entrap the fleet.

4) The Cylons want the humans to find Earth so that they can go wipe it out as with the 12 Colonies. While the Tomb contains the location of Earth they can't go there while the Cylons are still after them.

Take your pick. I have to admit I have no idea how this episode is going to end up, which is nice in this day and age of spoilers.

Scoobing
August 22nd, 2005, 03:28 PM
I heard in the podcast for this ep that what happens in the tomb is somehow related to
The Sagitarian Archer, "Oh so that's why he has the arrow" - Either Mr Moore, or Mr Eick.

Egeria
August 22nd, 2005, 03:36 PM
Then we disagree because I wouldn't see a Cylon as a human being. I don't care if it was brought up to think it was a human, it's still a machine. Artificial intelligence is still artificial, it's still software.

No I wouldn't call her a human being either, but certainly a sentient being.:)


She may not have pressed the button but that's like saying the only person responsible for Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the pilots that actually dropped 'em.

Good point, but since when were the masses guilty of the acts of the few, or the few guilty of the acts of the masses. Granted the Cylons as a mass attacked Caprica. However there will always be exceptions. You cannot consider it a god-given that Boomer condones the acts of her race and as such is responsible just because she's a Cylon. Surely as a sentient being she has the ability to make choices, and as such should be judged on her actions albeit with a very healthy dose of scepticism.:)

FeloniousMonk
August 22nd, 2005, 03:52 PM
Good point. She's still a Cylon, though. Not a person, a machine. Not a sentient being, just a machine programmed to act like one.

Scoobing
August 22nd, 2005, 04:01 PM
The line seems to be a little blury I would say at this point Physically they don't seem to have any mechanical parts. How can they be a machine? But they were 'grown' in a lab, and there are many copies. Is our uniqueness a defining factor in what makes us human?

Such questions....argh my head. :)

Egeria
August 22nd, 2005, 04:33 PM
Good point. She's still a Cylon, though. Not a person, a machine. Not a sentient being, just a machine programmed to act like one.

Initially when I read your post I thought "why does this guy/gal seem so intent on viewing her as a machine", I was a bit irked. I have to say thanks though, because it has made me reconsider my stance on whether she is programmed with a false sentience.:)

Certainly Galactica's Boomer would support this...up until she shot Adama she seemed to have self-awareness, and remorse, even though she suspected that she might be a Cylon. At the end of the day, though, she had no control over her programming when she shot the old man.

Caprica's Boomer also has shown self-awareness, though she has known from the start that she is a Cylon. The question is that in the earlier eps (can't remember which one) when Six kicks the crap out of her to make out that she had been roughed up by the Cylons, it seems like she is following a plan. However in Home Roslin is quick on the uptake that this Boomer apparantly loves Helo, so much so that she can use it against her. (my head is starting to hurt).

Another question re: sentience - surely the fact that the Cylons who were initially machines created to serve Humans, rebelled, demonstrates some kind of self-awareness. The fact that they seem to be on some religious drive demonstrates further sentient thought.

God, I hate this show as much as I love it....it don't 'alf make your brain work.:)

Liebestraume
August 22nd, 2005, 04:59 PM
...."if you wanna talk, I'm here for you" is such a cheesy line.You know, I actually thought that was a very nice line (as was the whole scene), but I know where you come from. A lot of my friends are guys in their 20's; were I openly ask them what they thought of that line, I know for sure almost all of them would tell me exactly the same thing that you just said.

That is, if they had to answer that question in front of other guys. Some of them are very good friends of mine, and I happen to know they are capable of sensitivity in private. The interesting thing here is that these "sensitive males" would feel genuinely embarrassed to witness this type of sentiment displayed by another member of their own sex; I suppose that's because it's not considered "cool" in our culture.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, the dialogue and the whole scene was perhaps meant to be viewed as a very private moment between two very old, good friends. In fact, I kind of doubt Lee would say all that stuff publicly, seeing his slight confusion and embarrassment right after that implusive kiss from before.

To be honest, if I were to observe that scene I'd probably feel quite embarrassed myself. Just like you probably did -- hence this may be not a "gender" thing 'cos ours are obviously opposite. However, if I saw it from the POV of either one of them, I'd probably feel it quite natural. So, perhaps, it's literally a matter of perspective.

And I agree with Easter Lily and LoneStar that his initial "goofiness" was most likely delibrate. Earlier in that day their interactions had ran from hot to cold to all over the place, and now he just needed something to break the ice. One might say an "I'm sorry" would have been a good place to start, but I think sometimes you just don't say that when you are friends with someone for too long and been through too much together.

Sorry if I'm not explaining all this very well :o ... that whole scene just felt so everyday and ordinary to me that it's hard to wax poetic about it. But that's also why I thought it was so good. :)

FeloniousMonk
August 22nd, 2005, 09:26 PM
The line seems to be a little blury I would say at this point Physically they don't seem to have any mechanical parts. How can they be a machine? But they were 'grown' in a lab, and there are many copies. Is our uniqueness a defining factor in what makes us human?

Such questions....argh my head. :)
What makes us human is our genetic code, nothing else. Not morality or murder or art or literature or baseball or lipstick. Genetics are the only thing that truly defines us as homo sapien and seperates us from other organisms.

Now, as well as the Cylons may have copied those genetics and used them to grow synthetic cells that mimic geniune tissue, they're still not human and they're still not alive. They mimic life, they mimic sentience, they mimic a consciousness but at the end of the day it's all software. Coded instructions and responses to input; that's not thought.

Then again that's just my theory, I could be wrong :D




Caprica's Boomer also has shown self-awareness, though she has known from the start that she is a Cylon. The question is that in the earlier eps (can't remember which one) when Six kicks the crap out of her to make out that she had been roughed up by the Cylons, it seems like she is following a plan. However in Home Roslin is quick on the uptake that this Boomer apparantly loves Helo, so much so that she can use it against her. (my head is starting to hurt).

Another question re: sentience - surely the fact that the Cylons who were initially machines created to serve Humans, rebelled, demonstrates some kind of self-awareness. The fact that they seem to be on some religious drive demonstrates further sentient thought.
Roslin points out that it doesn't matter whether she really loves him or not, just that she thinks she does. She's been programmed to have a seemingly emotional attatchment to Helo but in the end it's still just lines of code being processed according to preset instructions.

You're right, it does seem to demonstrate some form of sentience but I think artificial intelligence is defined as such because it's still based on a series of complex algorithms that work around a basic set of commands. AIs are given core principles (survive, replicate, make pizza, etc) and then the proper programming necessary to meet those goals in the most statistically efficient way possible.

Unless one can suggest that our own thoughts are somehow governed by some type of programming, I don't think I could ever accept that Cylons are anything but really complex computers.

FeloniousMonk
August 22nd, 2005, 09:42 PM
You know, I actually thought that was a very nice line (as was the whole scene), but I know where you come from. A lot of my friends are guys in their 20's; were I openly ask them what they thought of that line, I know for sure almost all of them would tell me exactly the same thing that you just said.

That is, if they had to answer that question in front of other guys. Some of them are very good friends of mine, and I happen to know they are capable of sensitivity in private. The interesting thing here is that these "sensitive males" would feel genuinely embarrassed to witness this type of sentiment displayed by another member of their own sex; I suppose that's because it's not considered "cool" in our culture.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, the dialogue and the whole scene was perhaps meant to be viewed as a very private moment between two very old, good friends. In fact, I kind of doubt Lee would say all that stuff publicly, seeing his slight confusion and embarrassment right after that implusive kiss from before.

To be honest, if I were to observe that scene I'd probably feel quite embarrassed myself. Just like you probably did -- hence this may be not a "gender" thing 'cos ours are obviously opposite. However, if I saw it from the POV of either one of them, I'd probably feel it quite natural. So, perhaps, it's literally a matter of perspective.

You're right, it's probably more of an awkward moment because it's being looked at from a third person POV. And while you make very good points on the other subject, it's not where I'm coming from. I readily accept whatever sensitive side I have left in me that isn't currently being eroded by cynicism (girls are crazy and a pain in the ass :)) and I understand that most of your friends wouldn't admit it either. But given this veil of anonymity I'd have no issue whatsoever enjoying an emotional and heartfelt scene. Back in the miniseries when Adama found out Apollo was still alive and they hugged in his quarters I had to really work at holding back a couple tears (my relationship with my father was certainly a catalyst).

My problem was never with the goal of the scene, only the execution. Over the years I've begun to master the art of being sensitive while at the same time retaining a sense of masculinity about me. Why? Because I've learned that despite what girls claim they do not like guys to be as sensitive as they are. Again we go back to simple biology. Men have more of the hormone that dictates the survival instincts while women have more of the hormone that dictates the familial instincts. We're simply designed this way and believe me I would never, ever suggest that one role is less important than the other or that men are "stronger" because of this fact. We're simply wired differently. :p

Gimme a second to figure out where I was going with this....

..

oh yea

I didn't have a problem with what the writers were trying to convey with the scene. I just feel that Apollo was portrayed as a teddy bear for her to cuddle with as opposed to a rock for her to stabilize herself on. I truly believe the latter would've been better for the characters and their very disfuntional relationship because even a woman as solid as Starbuck has more estrogen than testosterone coursing through her veins and thus at some level needs a man to act like a man.

[/two cents]


I like this forum, I really hope I don't offend anyone with my overly clinical view of human psychology :p

TheHomegaMan
August 22nd, 2005, 09:44 PM
I'm going to fall in with those who say that Caprica Sharon's "love" is artificial. From everything they've indicated, the whole purpose of CSharon was to fall in love with Helo, placate him, and see if "love" is what the Cylons lack when it comes to natural reproduction. The best way to accomplish a goal is to get your agents to truly believe in what they're doing. Looks to me like CSharon's getting played, expertly so.

Shipperahoy
August 22nd, 2005, 10:53 PM
I actually don't think that Caprica Boomer's love is artificial. Actually it's more like I don't want to think that her love is artificial. I'm actually pulling for those two. What can I say? I'm a hopeless romantic. ;) Plus, I think that it would make the story more interesting if Cylons were actually capable of feeling human emotions without it being programming.

Easter Lily
August 23rd, 2005, 02:08 AM
My problem was never with the goal of the scene, only the execution. Over the years I've begun to master the art of being sensitive while at the same time retaining a sense of masculinity about me. Why? Because I've learned that despite what girls claim they do not like guys to be as sensitive as they are. Again we go back to simple biology. Men have more of the hormone that dictates the survival instincts while women have more of the hormone that dictates the familial instincts. We're simply designed this way and believe me I would never, ever suggest that one role is less important than the other or that men are "stronger" because of this fact. We're simply wired differently. :p

Gimme a second to figure out where I was going with this....

..

oh yea

I didn't have a problem with what the writers were trying to convey with the scene. I just feel that Apollo was portrayed as a teddy bear for her to cuddle with as opposed to a rock for her to stabilize herself on. I truly believe the latter would've been better for the characters and their very disfuntional relationship because even a woman as solid as Starbuck has more estrogen than testosterone coursing through her veins and thus at some level needs a man to act like a man.

[/two cents]


I like this forum, I really hope I don't offend anyone with my overly clinical view of human psychology :p

Apollo... a teddy bear...? I want, I want, I want... :D
Drats... just remembered...
*grumbles something about being married*

I have no doubt that Lee is being portrayed as the Sensitive New Age Guy here (he has a nice moment with Roslin at the end) but we mustn't forget that his character is not privy to the kind of information that we are. We know what she's been up to... he doesn't... He tried the playful angle but that didn't go down well so he changes tact.
He was more than a little annoyed with her for interrupting his "conversation" with Boomer and probably realised quickly enough that her accusation of his being hypocritical had some merit. I suppose he was trying to offer the olive branch but she wasn't in the right frame of mind for it.
From your "omniscient" point of view, she needs him to be a man... but from his point of view, he wants to find out what's eating her. She's not terribly communicative... So instead of forcing the issue, he does what any wise person would and that is to back off but leave the door open for further communication... except of course we know he doesn't just open the door in the episode... he opens the floodgates too... ;) It may seem unmanly to you but in a strange way it works, her interest is piqued and she perks up... At the risk of repeating a horrendously trite and overused cliche, it brought out the child in her, with the whole "Lee Adama Loves Me" line and then the rest of the playground banter. This to me is significant because it relates to something very profound about her background... the unhappy childhood and child abuse that was strongly suggested the earlier episode. That she can relate to Lee on this childlike/elemental level is very poignant... very different to her relationships to other men which is largely about flying, adrenalin, and sex.

I've had a bit of experience counselling couples... just a bit... ;) and I know that sometimes men and women confuse each other no end.. But I don't like generalizing too much where relationships are concerned. Of course, men and women are wired differently but their family and cultural background also contributes in a major way to the dynamic of the relationship. Every couple is different in the way they make demands and relate to one another because they come from different families...


But... aaaaaaannnnyway... it's all fascinating stuff... ;)

FeloniousMonk
August 23rd, 2005, 05:29 AM
But... aaaaaaannnnyway... it's all fascinating stuff... ;)
well at least I won't argue with that :D

Thermonuclearboy
August 23rd, 2005, 05:53 AM
Here's my take on Lee Adama: he's a military brat. His father is a decorated officer and hero, and Lee went into the armed forces either to please his father or because he simply knew no other way to be. Probably got a cushy assignment far away from any potential combat, thanks to Bill Adama, and even though he's an officer he's just not used to actually commanding men, let alone leading them into battle. He's the "golden boy" of the fleet, but not really much of a soldier. A good pilot, but flying under actual fire is a new experience for him. He was simply not prepared to step up and become a CAG in a time of war (then again, I guess the whole point is that NO ONE was prepared for this). If you recall some of the early exchanges between Apollo and Starbuck, you'll see that he's clearly not used to giving orders and handing out discipline, and Starbuck actually calls him on that several times. In a sense Starbuck is a more natural warrior than Apollo. She really should be the CAG, if only her discipline problems were under control.

entil2001
August 23rd, 2005, 06:05 AM
So now that all the early season plot threads are coming together, there’s too much story for just one episode. The result is a two-part story that slowly but surely triggers all the little plot elements that have been waiting for their time to shine. Since this is the first half of the story, there’s not a lot of action, and the focus is on character development. That’s not a bad thing; it’s simply not as exciting as the last few episodes before it.

Everything that’s been happening on the series this season traces back to the first season finale, where Roslyn asked Starbuck to violate orders and retrieve the Arrow of Apollo. It’s just taken a long time to hash itself out, and I couldn’t be happier about it. In this case, we get to see Adama slowly work through his emotional response to the fragmentation of the fleet, Roslyn struggle to maintain her control, Zarek’s underhanded plots, and a little Apollo/Starbuck action. Oh, and there’s the small matter of Boomer’s return as well.

I like how Adama’s psychological space is so controlled, yet everything can be discerned by one look in his eyes. Olmos brings such an intensity to the role; it’s a joy to behold. I think there’s a tension and distance growing between Adama and Tigh, however. For all the support Adama promised upon his return, he’s seen the cost of Tigh’s heavy-handed dictatorship. The only way to heal the wounds (if they can be healed) is to make peace with Roslyn, which is going to take a lot for Adama to accept. Odd that Dualla is the one that gets him to see that.

That’s something that happens a lot on Galactica. Minor characters provide an amazing level of support for their commanding officers. Normally, that would go unquestioned, especially in a siege crisis like the one they are enduring. But this is also a fleet with unknown Cylon infiltrators, one of which was just as trusted a “family member”. It’s hard not to wonder about motives.

Speaking of which, there’s Boomer and all the questions surrounding her motivations. I’m surprised that Apollo’s the only one who assumed that the ambush was Boomer’s doing. Whatever Boomer’s role in the big picture, she provides a great trigger point for conflict within and between the humans. Roslyn in particular seems to have little use for Boomer, despite the fact that Boomer is probably the only source of real intel that the humans know they have.

Richard Hatch must be incredibly happy. After all these years of trying to get the original series resurrected and fighting against a reinvention, he’s not only come around to see the light, but he’s been handed what is possibly the best role of his career. He brings a relish to Zarek’s plotting, even if the dialogue is a little heavy-handed; they didn’t need to say nearly as much as they did to get the point across.

And then there’s Apollo and Starbuck. A lot of critics of the new series were expecting these two to get together within seconds of the first episode. Take that, naysayers! It actually works when the characters have time to grow into an appreciation of each other. Or rather, when Apollo starts recognizing that a hot pilot with a rebellious streak is more than just a strange reflection of himself. I don’t see Kara settling down with Lee anytime soon, but would any future return for Anders be much fun if there wasn’t personal conflict for Kara in the process?

The next episode should see, based on the promos and the podcast, the next turn in the plot arc. The whole “Arrow of Apollo” thing ought to get a payoff, and Adama’s desire for some kind of confrontation with Boomer (even if it’s a different one than the one who shot him) should come to fruition. I don’t want to see this more serialized storytelling disappear completely, but it ought to be satisfying to see so many plot threads come to momentary fulfillment.

Easter Lily
August 23rd, 2005, 06:04 PM
Here's my take on Lee Adama: he's a military brat. His father is a decorated officer and hero, and Lee went into the armed forces either to please his father or because he simply knew no other way to be. Probably got a cushy assignment far away from any potential combat, thanks to Bill Adama, and even though he's an officer he's just not used to actually commanding men, let alone leading them into battle. He's the "golden boy" of the fleet, but not really much of a soldier. A good pilot, but flying under actual fire is a new experience for him. He was simply not prepared to step up and become a CAG in a time of war (then again, I guess the whole point is that NO ONE was prepared for this). If you recall some of the early exchanges between Apollo and Starbuck, you'll see that he's clearly not used to giving orders and handing out discipline, and Starbuck actually calls him on that several times. In a sense Starbuck is a more natural warrior than Apollo. She really should be the CAG, if only her discipline problems were under control.

Well, it boils down to two things for me: what you mean by a "natural warrior" and does being a "natural warrior" necessarily mean a better leader? Being CAG is as much a leadership issue as a military one.
I suspect that we must be watching two different versions of BSG because the one I've been watching tells me that Lee is a very good CAG... at least the other characters in the show seem to think so. ;)
Col Tigh, heaven forbid, thinks he's so good that he gets him out of the brig on parole to deal with the cylon attack. In the Valley of Darkness, Lee certainly took the bull by the horns during the cylon incursion and got people organized. Furthermore, his pilots love him seen in the way they clamoured for his full return in Resistance. In Fragged, he took the initiative to go down to Kobol to look for Crashdown's team while Tigh was de-stressing with alcohol therapy. Dee even hinted in no uncertain terms that he'd do a better job than Tigh. Even the new CAG said as much, "I was a tremendous supporter of your son, Capt Adama, he was a great leader." And twice in this episode, Adama and Tigh remind each other that any new CAG would be "no Apollo".

Whether Kara would do a better job, is difficult to say. She is the fleet's best pilot and can kick all manner of behind with the best of them but whether that translates to administration and organizing people is another thing

Buggy542
August 24th, 2005, 12:25 PM
What makes us human is our genetic code, nothing else. Not morality or murder or art or literature or baseball or lipstick. Genetics are the only thing that truly defines us as homo sapien and seperates us from other organisms.
Genetics... programming... they both seam very similar to me... What do genetics do? They give the body instructions, what to do on a subconscious level. "Make this type of cell here, another type there". What does programming do? It gives a computer instructions, what to do when this button is pressed, or what to run when another button is pressed. The difference between them would be that on top of the genetics humans have the ability to think and make choices, whereas computers don't have that type of higher thought. But isn't that what AI is? Higher thought? So when it comes down to it, humans and cylons wouldn't be that different if they didn't hold to their beliefs, customs, "morality or murder or art or literature or baseball or lipstick". It's our history that's going to make us different, not what we're made of.


Roslin points out that it doesn't matter whether she really loves him or not, just that she thinks she does. She's been programmed to have a seemingly emotional attatchment to Helo but in the end it's still just lines of code being processed according to preset instructions.
Humans have preset instructions too... If you think about it that code is very similar to our instincts. It's deeply wired within our brains that mating is good. Just like it's wired into us that we need to eat, sleep, and do everything else associated with life. Most humans have a fascination with flame, which it has been suggested is probably something left over from our cave dwelling times when fire meant warmth, light, and safety. Sharon loves Helo, her code tells her to love Helo. Helo loves Sharon, his instincts are what's driving him - albeit on the most basic level - to love her. Are they so different?


Anyway, I'll shut up now because I'm starting to repeat myself. And I'm not trying to be mean or anything, just in case my thoughts came off as such. I just don't happen to agree with you... :rolleyes: :)

An interesting fic on this type of thing is 'Twelve' (http://www.cylondreams.com/dreaming/archive/0/twelve.html) by Rhianna. It's rated R for containing some... shippiness... but you can skip over that stuff if you're sensitive to it.

Droops
August 24th, 2005, 01:22 PM
Then we disagree because I wouldn't see a Cylon as a human being. I don't care if it was brought up to think it was a human, it's still a machine. Artificial intelligence is still artificial, it's still software.

Which, I think, brings up some interesting questions about the human race. If someone is conceived in a test tube, are they human? If there are ever clones of someone, are THEY human?

If we start implanting ourselves with machines, which we already have (pacemakers for example), are we still human? If we implant a mobile cell phone in our heads and a sub-vocalizing microphone in our throats, are we still human? Is there a point where we lose our humanity?

And if the cylons take on human form, bleed like humans, have emotions like humans, can become pregnant by humans, are they still cylons?

I think this is one of the central questions that the show is trying to raise.

FeloniousMonk
August 24th, 2005, 09:48 PM
But isn't that what AI is? Higher thought?
Nope. Artificial intelligence is just that - artificial. It's complex programming that mimics sentience.

You have a point in that genetics are a type of programming but that's biology, not technology. The programming that directs Cylon "thoughts" comes from bits of digital code while the programming that our DNA directs comes from actual life. The programming controlling a Cylon was, at its' core, at some point created by a person with sentience (ie, whoever built the first colonial computer) and was a product of technology, a machine. Thus anything that stems from that discovery will forever be based on a machine.

I have no issue with people disagreeing with me :) Just because we don't share points of view doesn't mean anything. We are human, after all...










..mostly :eek:

Buggy542
August 25th, 2005, 02:36 PM
Nope. Artificial intelligence is just that - artificial. It's complex programming that mimics sentience.

You have a point in that genetics are a type of programming but that's biology, not technology. The programming that directs Cylon "thoughts" comes from bits of digital code while the programming that our DNA directs comes from actual life. The programming controlling a Cylon was, at its' core, at some point created by a person with sentience (ie, whoever built the first colonial computer) and was a product of technology, a machine. Thus anything that stems from that discovery will forever be based on a machine.
True. It all depends on where you draw the line I guess. I'm not saying that they are exactly the same, just that they're so similar I would consider them to be human now, even if they're really not originally. Boomer managed to fool everyone for a year - maybe longer depending on how the cylons create and distribute the copies - and during that time she was human because no one suspected otherwise (except herself but I won't get into that :rolleyes: ).

I don't even know where I was going with this... I guess my point is that faced with the decision about what to do with Boomer, I don't think I'd be as hasty to toss her out the airlock as Roslin was. To me she's kinda like a person with multiple personalities, we don't punish people with that type of problem in our society today, so maybe we should just use extreme caution. Look out for the times when she's an active cylon agent, and treat her as a normal person when we know she's trying to be one.

This is all very idealistic of course… Nothing of the like would ever work unless there was some concrete way to either tell when she's being influenced by the collective, or prevent them from influencing her at all. Until such time as that's possible I think they'd better keep her because not only is she nice 90% of the time, she also might have some valuable information that wouldn't be able to be salvaged if she was a body floating in space.


I have no issue with people disagreeing with me :) Just because we don't share points of view doesn't mean anything. We are human, after all...







..mostly :eek:
Hopefully mostly. :eek: :eek:

:p

Liebestraume
August 25th, 2005, 04:53 PM
I didn't have a problem with what the writers were trying to convey with the scene. I just feel that Apollo was portrayed as a teddy bear for her to cuddle with as opposed to a rock for her to stabilize herself on. I truly believe the latter would've been better for the characters and their very disfuntional relationship because even a woman as solid as Starbuck has more estrogen than testosterone coursing through her veins and thus at some level needs a man to act like a man.Thanks for clarify your earlier point -- now I really know where you come from (as opposed to just "know" from before :D). I'll bypass the discussion of biology for the most part, because I fear we'll never see eye-to-eye on that issue. The difficulty may be traced to our seeming distinctive viewers of human behavior -- you see it mostly visceral while I cerebral; "gender bias" may have nothing to do with it.

Now, I am not all together sure what you mean by "act like a man" so perhap you'll elaborate? To me, he was exactly what she needed at that time. I am not going to say that there will never be a time when Kara needs a rock to lean on -- I hope there will be, for she is after all human -- but I don't think that was one of those times. She looked reflective, perhaps a bit melancholy, but not vulnerable. His "... if you need to talk I'm here" may indeed be superfluous, given she is not the communicative type; but IMO that's exactly what she needed to hear at the time. Even a tough girl like Kara wants to know she is not alone and she is cared.

Back on track to the current topic "Are Cylons Human" ... I am of the opinion that Cylons are not human but sentient beings. But, would that change the rule of the game? I think most of us would be ready to concede the equality among humans, Vulcans, and Kligons; why are these sentient beings so different? Would their "artificial" origin always make them "subhuman"?

dec55
August 25th, 2005, 11:33 PM
It would appear that the Galacticans are not able to see that AI are a new
form of sentient life...like say the folks in the Matrix or Andromeda...or even Aliens,and Bladerunner , where AI rights are just accepted as a life form. It would appear the Galacticans are on the verge of discovering that what they actually created is a form of life.....

It would put the Galacticans at the same point in time as in the Matrix where Earth folks were not aware of the AI self awareness and got whacked because of it. Just to give a reference with another story. The Matrix story and BSG humans find themselves in the same situation. With the same predjudices and basically getting the same fate for now.

Easter Lily
August 26th, 2005, 01:09 AM
I'm not sure how much of what Six says to Baltar is official party line, how much of it is manipulation or how much can be accredited to an individual awareness but she is always at pains to highlight the worst in the human condition. So at least from her rather coloured perspective, humans have turned corrupt and no longer deserving of "God's" favour. Leoben also appears to be towing that line.
So what we have are the cylons saying that they are a superior successor to the human race and yet some of them are demonstrating the same "weaknesses" that they despise in humanity. Or are they merely manifesting the better qualities of humanity? Does that, therefore, mean then that they are human? But then we have Doral saying to Six, "I wonder what it is like to feel alive" which makes one suspect that perhaps they are not as "complete" as they would like to be.
I don't believe the cylons are human in the way we understand "human"... while they can take on human qualities, there are aspects of their make up that are unlike humans. They are capable of rational thought and yet they can be programmed to be given memories or instructions. Their consciousness seems to be transferable in a mechanical sort of way. As for them developing emotions, is that something inherent or is it something triggered by long interaction with humans?

Thermonuclearboy
August 26th, 2005, 05:30 AM
Well, emotions are, essentially, programmed things. Human beings are conditioned to respond to certain things in certain ways by upbringing, by social pressure, by biology. In essence, emotions are a set of programming instructions that influence decision-making. It's not impossible for a complex-enough computer to have them.

Sentience is another matter altogether...if a machine is programmed to THINK it's sentient, and acts accordingly, does it make it truly sentient? And how would an outside observer know the difference? Is there even a difference?

FeloniousMonk
August 26th, 2005, 06:59 AM
I think I understand why my views differ from most...

See, I agree that emotions can be considered a form of programming but where I draw the line is that I believe our genetic programming is governed solely by the biochemistry at work behind it, with no external intelligence having "decided" anything. With the Cylons, everything they think and feel was at one point based on human intelligence creating the concept of programming computers. Every strand of our DNA can be broken down each level and you still won't have anything making a decision; if string theory is correct then everything that our "life" is based on it basically random chance. The Cylons were created via intelligence, we weren't. That's the difference between real sentience and artificial intelligence, in my opinion.


so yeah, that's just how I see things

Egeria
August 27th, 2005, 02:21 AM
The Cylons were created via intelligence, we weren't.

Oooh, that opens up an entirely new arguement....that of creation v evolution.:D

IMForeman
August 27th, 2005, 09:23 AM
Also, it would be funny if they found a big round thing with weird symbols on it..

http://www.enigmanaut.com/adamagate.jpg

Made that during Season 1. :D

Why is the topic for Home Part 2 still locked?

-IMF

zats
August 27th, 2005, 10:27 AM
--spoilers 'Home Pt. II'--

They sorta did...it just wasn't a Stargate (or was it...?)

IMForeman
August 27th, 2005, 10:35 AM
--spoilers 'Home Pt. II'--

They sorta did...it just wasn't a Stargate (or was it...?)

It was a bit long for a Gate address though. ;)

-IMF

zats
August 27th, 2005, 10:54 AM
They have an older model of 'gate, that's all. :D

FeloniousMonk
August 27th, 2005, 12:30 PM
watching last night's episode now...one thing I noticed last week but forgot to mention: a bouncing betty would've done a hell of a lot more damage to the priestess. that close to a land mine and her face would've been shredded half off with third degree burn marks all over. not a big deal for most but tiny little things like that ruin scenes for me...reminds me of when a footprint from a previous take of a scene ruined an otherwise perfect HBO miniseries about the Apollo landings for me

[/tan]

Blue Banrigh
August 29th, 2005, 04:56 AM
Was anybody else surprised that Adama chose Dualla to talk to? But the reasons she gave him for why he chose her made sense.

Love the 'Good Lighter' music theme from Hand of God.

Wayan
January 16th, 2006, 03:50 PM
Hi all, not new to GateWorld, but New To the BSG part of it. Only discovered the show this weekend with a mammoth DvD watching Spree (the mini series and all season 1 in one Day). Well thats not technically true, I've been meaning to get into the show forever but avoiding watching it on TV as I just hate jumping into series mid flow. Finally got my hands on the Mini-series DVD and season 1 and sure enough I fallen in love with it and have since been watching the Second series a friend of mine sent me (on VHS). So far only watched upto this episode hence my commenting on it.

I really will try not to babble on all my thoughts on the show but I did want to add my comments on FeliousMonks posts about seeing the Cylons as nothing more than computers. I for one find this very hard to swallow now. Infact I think its one of the driving forces behind the whole show. Challenging our preconceptions of humanity and what makes us human. i won't argue the Cylons were simple machines to begin with but they seem to have evolved to something else. Saying there nothing more than computers mimicing just doesn't cut it for me. If you want to break them down and say they can't be scientiant or alive due to the parts that make them, when humans are broken down into there pure scientific parts were nothing more than strands of DNA. The real life and soul of a human has yet to be quantified. Biological where nothing special. Once more we have evolved ourselves if the theory of evolution is to be believed. We weren't always the sentient beings we are now and were something much more basic and simple.

I don't know maybe I give the Cylons too much credit... but for them just to be killing machines mimicing humans just seems... well too simple for BSG... and wouldn't leave me forfilled at the end of the day.

Mr. Seven
January 17th, 2006, 01:02 AM
Looking back, I hope that Kara, Helo and Anders exchanged Cylon intel..

I mean they all had to have encountered humanoid cylons before.

We know Anders encountered Leoben, due to his " You swin in the stream " line.

I am wondering if Anders is a cylon...

Matt G
February 14th, 2006, 03:10 PM
OK...

1. How much of a moron was the new CAG?

2. Dualla had a point that I completely forgot about, it was Adama who was yelling "so say we all" in the mini-series. Looks like Adama had realised he'd forgotten about it as well, 9/10 he wouldn't back down on that sort of thing.

3. Interesting dynamics running between Apollo and Starbuck.

AndyStargateUK
February 15th, 2006, 08:13 AM
If one of the 'Human Cylons' knows how to access the tomb with the location of Earth isn't it at all possible they have rigged anything that they will eventually find. Or at worst they Cylons are always on there way to Earth....

MB.Eddie
November 9th, 2006, 08:56 AM
Reasonable ep. The new CAG did stuff up a lot. That ambush on Kobol was to be expected too. I love the scene where Dee speaks up to Adama and tells him to bring the fleet/family back together again, and then when Adama speaks to everyone on the bridge, and they are all happy. Good stuff :)

Ulkesh47
November 19th, 2010, 12:49 PM
First, I have to give three cheers for the Wander, My Friends/Good Lighter music!

Now that that's out of the way... highlights include the intense confrontation on the Astral Queen ("let's do what the nice lady says." "she's the President of the Colonies, you moron"), the Adama/Dualla scene and the "cost in blood" coming back to claim Elosha (how unironic).

Speaking of Roslin and her merry band of cohorts, I'm going back to "Resistance" and Billy's inexplicable decision not to follow her. Of course, the behind the scenes reason was that Paul Campbell was filming something else, but I think an unforeseen obstacle blocking Billy's path to the Raptor in "Resistance" until it was too late would have worked better than the rather half-baked explanation he gave. Also, I can't help but think that Billy should have died on Kobol along with Elosha as opposed to his upcoming fate in "Sacrifice". It would be more emotionally powerful for Roslin to have insisted on finding the Tomb of Athena only to lose her two most trusted allies.

The rest of the ep was ho-hum. The idiot CAG subplot was an exceedingly heavy-handed attempt to show that Apollo and Starbuck are needed on Galactica, and there was too much screen time spent on it.

This was your typical BSG episode, and as such earns...

5/10

Professor_S
June 5th, 2011, 04:05 PM
First, I have to give three cheers for the Wander, My Friends/Good Lighter music!

Now that that's out of the way... highlights include the intense confrontation on the Astral Queen ("let's do what the nice lady says." "she's the President of the Colonies, you moron"), the Adama/Dualla scene and the "cost in blood" coming back to claim Elosha (how unironic).
<snip>


^^You forgot the part where Adama's all bad*** about cracking walnuts with his bare hand. :P

I agree with what a lot of people have said here already - the accident with the new CAG was incredibly amateurish and then, when the mishaps piled up it seemed very heavy-handed. How did this guy get so high up the ranks? How was he even in contention? Is it possible that Adama was deliberately hasty in his decision and perhaps (subconsciously?) sabotaging the choice. That is, maybe it was meant to be understood this way: Adama doesn't want anyone to replace Lee and Starbuck. Maybe it was meant to be a reflection on Adama's character/state of mind at the time rather than an implicit reflection on Lee and Starbuck.

I adore the scene between Adama and Dee. That feeling, from last ep, about feeling "closer to the ground" was precisely what Dee was talking about here - Adama feels helpless. EJO delivered that opening bit of dialogue so coolly; but it was a coolness of barely contained tumult. And his anguished glare when Dee mentions "parents separated from their children"... haunting.

Finally... :D:D:D The final scene!!! Yay for the "Wander, My Friends" theme again. That scene always gives me goosebumps. :cool:

MrZaborskii
May 10th, 2014, 05:23 PM
That music kicks in at all the right moments. I'm glad they save it for special occasions like this.