PDA

View Full Version : The Farm (205)



GateWorld
July 26th, 2005, 06:50 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/2052.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px solid black" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888">GALACTICA SEASON TWO</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">THE FARM</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 205</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
Kara is shot and wakes up in a remote hospital facility on Caprica, and learns that her friendly doctor has his own plans for her future.

<FONT SIZE=1><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

CKO
August 13th, 2005, 12:08 AM
so everyone... comments on the eppy..

24 ships jumped. almost a 1/3 of the fleet, i didn't think that many would have jumped but guess there was more opposed to what adama was doin'.

what was up with that doc... he must have been another cylon model...

so how is Kara special...

what's gonna happen with anders and the rest of the resistance. will they die or will they join the fight against the cylons.

EJO did a wonderful job portrayin' Adama's grief over the loss of boomer. i dont think he even suspected she was a cylon til it was too late.

next weeks looks like there's gonna be a lot of action, but lookin' forward to it.

Carbito
August 13th, 2005, 12:11 AM
Another excellent episode!

So when they left Caprica in that Cylon craft did Boomer go with them? If so, it will be interesting to see what happens in regards to her in the next episode.

Crichton
August 13th, 2005, 01:47 AM
I was really impressed with the acting and writing around the cylon doctor, (the guy who was a gould pretending to be a Jaffa leader in SG-1) the idea of surgeries being done to you while you sleep is definetly creepy, but the kicker was the info on Starbuck's past-all of her fingers broken by abusive parents...that's harsh and dark, good stuff.

The real kicker was Adama Sr.'s comeback (as I'm sure it was everyone's favorite part). Fav. scene- (Throws notebook) "no one's gonna believe this crap, no one's that stupid." I always feel like Adama Sr.'s character is the only one on the show who represents how I would like the show to go. Also, I'm glad that Apollo didn't follow the Pres., the shot of her embracing her religous leadership and instantly being so out of it that she couldn't use a tape recorder...priceless.

LoneStar1836
August 13th, 2005, 02:05 AM
After all those other tense episodes, I had to shift gears for this one.

Interesting plot development, yet creepy at the same time. I had read speculation in various places that the reason we weren’t seeing people was because the Cylons were rounding up survivors. Guess all the men just get a bullet to the head.

I was spoiled about Simon being a Cylon so no surprise there for me. Though I think I would have picked up on that anyway before it was revealed…..

Starbuck really did have a horrible childhood. I got the feeling in “Flesh and Bone” that her mother wasn’t somebody she remembered fondly. Though when Simon said all her fingers had been fractured in the same place, my immediate though was that dear old dad and his piano had something to do with that.

Hmm, maybe Anders is a Cylon. Yeah, I’m going to end up saying that so and so is a Cylon in ever episode, but I have to cover my bases. :P I just thought his sudden acceptance that Starbuck’s true mission to Caprica was a good enough reason for her to leave them behind was somewhat convenient. He just seemed like he changed his tune too easily for me – I’m of the belief that the Cylons are somehow invested in the Colonials finding Earth. Plus how did Simon know his name? But that’s just me looking for any excuse to peg someone as a Cylon. :D I’m sure the guy is as human as they come.

I thought they accepted Boomer being a Cylon a little too easy, even though they didn’t actually show us the scene in which they were actually informed.

Yeah, I didn’t think that many ships would jump with Roslin either. I still think Zarek is using Lee and Roslin to his benefit. Especially Lee since he is Adama’s son. What better person to have turn against Adama than his own son. Had to give a big sigh of relief when Lee came to his senses about putting out a statement instructing people to subvert his father’s command.

Powerful stuff there with Adama/Tyrol and then him breaking down over Boomer. Though I have some reservations if that was keeping with his character – in that he’d cry for Boomer even though she was a machine that he totally detests. Was he crying over the loss of whom he knew as Boomer or was it just pent up emotion from the betrayal of Lee and Starbuck and the situation facing him with a third of the fleet jumping away. I think RDM is going for the former, but I wanted to interpret it as the latter since he had just watched ships jump away and one of them carrying his son.

JB played Lee’s reaction to finding out his father was back was great. Very subtle. Same goes for EJO about having to accept that his son had betrayed him when he and Tigh were talking to Gaeta about them being fugitives. Fine job by KS as well. Shoot, even pretty boy playing Anders could act. The actors never seem to disappoint me on this show.

Hehe. Baltar was great. He just looked so “happy” that Adama was back on his feet that he just couldn’t hold back his “joy” as evident by all the “supportive” clapping. :D

Other than having to really slow down for this one, my major quibble was how this episode was directed. I don’t mind the jittery camera work that is ever present in BSG, but this guy had too much coffee when he filmed this. :D

Easter Lily
August 13th, 2005, 05:55 AM
I suppose an episode like this was always going to be an anticlimax after the first four mind-blowing events. Still there was interesting information about the cylons and their religious injunction to "be fruitful and multiply". However, it sounds like although they would like to multiply... they aren't terribly fruitful, hence the title of the episode. Who else thinks that this procreation for lurrve is going to end up being the cylon's undoing?

In the colonial fleet, the farm is really turning into a zoo. Should Lee and Roslin really be so trusting of Greek-mythology-spouting Zarek though? Furthermore, there is something quite frightening about people throwing themselves at Messiah Roslin at such short notice. Are human beings so easily led? Madam Priestess gave a rather shifty look which gets my vote for cylon candidate number 6. Well, not literally. Well, you know what I mean. Something's rotten in space methinks...

Lee, buddy... what have you got yourself into... Euuww... an ethical and moral slippery slide. Should've taken your cue from Billy. Just as well you did come to your senses. (I was about to throw something large in your direction) No thanks to Zarek or Roslin though...
Dad's alive... good to see you all choked up about it... but don't let Zarek choke you from behind.

Kara, girl... a boy in every port eh...? This one at least is kinda cute... and definitely several steps up from Mr Vice-President. Nah... I don't think he's a cylon... Hubs thinks he isn't either... he says he's complexion isn't good enough.

Zeus... yay... is back... Everyone is visibly relieved... two standing ovations on Mt Olympus no less... Loved his little moments with Tyrol and corpsified Boomer... Very weepy... lots of pathos... EJO has just made this role his own...

A good episode... lots of little emotional moments but can't wait for the next episode.
SO... my question of the day is... Is Starbuck pregnant?

Liebestraume
August 13th, 2005, 07:17 AM
Starbuck really did have a horrible childhood. I got the feeling in “Flesh and Bone” that her mother wasn’t somebody she remembered fondly. Though when Simon said all her fingers had been fractured in the same place, my immediate though was that dear old dad and his piano had something to do with that.Heh. Daddy is/was the artistic (read: bohemian) sort, mommy the puritanical. Unhappiness ensued, culminating Daddy's early death (or abandonment of family). Mommy transplanted resentment to Little Girl, reminder of the biggest mistake (read: Daddy). Which made Little Girl remember Daddy even more fondly, hence the piano-playing. Broken fingers could be the result of either punishment by Mommy or her stern discipline against the corrupting influence of music/art/Daddy.

Yeah, I'm gonna go with that story. :D

On the less fanciful side, this feels like one of the more "emotional" episodes. Three scenes stood out in particular.

My favorite was Lee's reaction to the news of Adama's recovery: relief that Dad is finally out of the woods, longing of being there with him, and finally reflection upon how Dad must be hurt by his actions. All those emotions flashed across JB's face within split seconds, ending with a sad little smile. Nice foreshadowing of Lee's refusal to denounce Adama; in fact, I couldn't believe he even considered the proposal in the first place.

Adama's breakdown was believable, yet strange at the same time. Believable, because physically and emotionally he was severely shaken by the gun-shot wound and the apparent betrayal by both Lee and Kara (and a third of the fleet). I'd like to think he was really crying over the loss of his son and surrogate daughter, but the flashback (and his prior exchange with Tyrol) made his grief seem personal about Boomer. This bugged me a little, since I failed to discern on any prior occasion a particularly strong emotional bound between the two. Nevertheless, it was well acted by EJO.

The farewell scene between Kara and Anders worked for me, then it didn't. The problem, I guess, was it dragged on for far too long. I can buy that people quickly form intense emotional attachment when the end of the world is upon them. And I can appreciate that, while saying goodbye, they each understood the unlikelihood of ever seeing each other again (that is, if they are both human, and I'd like to think they are). But my waterworks stopped some time before they get to the point where she promised to be back -- come on, not even I could be that much of a sap!


SO... my question of the day is... Is Starbuck pregnant?Dear Lord, I hope not! She really should have that second cut looked at, though -- I know I would. Not terribly fond of the Caprica storyline as a whole. Perhaps a lot of it had to do with my general antipathy to the whole baby farm idea -- it frankly grosses me out. And the "I am a pilot / No, you should be a mother" debate, while intellectually relevant, hits a bit too close to home for comfort. I genuinely cheered when Kara stabbed that cylon doctor with the broken mirror.

Well, I suppose it's bound to happen sooner or later: an BSG episode I'm not too crazy about. On the plus side, I am very pleased by the return of the "old" opening sequence.

Redwall
August 13th, 2005, 07:45 AM
Was anyone else half-expecting Kara to scream, "We will not be your axotl tanks!" as she stabbed Simon? Man, that was a great scene. When Starbuck smiles, you know something bad is about to happen. (I would also agree that Kara's father probably didn't have anything to do with her abuse. I hope.)

Does anyone else feel like Zarek is just "there" now? I think I preferred him giving speeches.

keshou
August 13th, 2005, 07:49 AM
I actually liked this episode a lot, although I'm glad to see the Caprica thread winding up.

Of course I'm a big Kara fan and there was a lot of focus on her. Predictably she fell into bed with Anders right away. Poor Kara - looking for love in all the wrong places. There had been hints at her childhood being less than rosy but the reveal about all the fingers in her hands being broken - and then seeing Kara thrust them protectively under her body. Very angsty stuff.

I had avoided spoilers but it didn't take too much to figure out Kara was being cared for by Dr. Cylon. So that makes 5 models identified so far, right? They really didn't even try very hard to hide it from the audience which was probably for the best. The story still worked because it was such a darn creepy place where she was being kept. Very creepy. :S So if they stole her eggs then are we going to see lots of little Starbuck Cylons down the road? And what's so special about Kara?

Sure would have been nice to see how Helo convinced Anders's gang to accept CapricaBoomer. But probably would have taken the whole episode so *hand wave*, she's on board. I'm also not sure I'm buying the whole "Cylons can't procreate without love" thing. Hope the writers have a few more twists in that story.

I'm still trying to figure out all the rules on what Cylons know and don't know. CapricaBoomer has all the knowledge and memories of Leoben - that's clear from her conversation with Starbuck. But she hasn't "accessed" other data. Because she can't? Because she doesn't want to? If GalacticaBoomer's memories have now been downloaded then CapricaBoomer knows what she "did" to Adama. And about GalacticaBoomer's feelings for Tyrol.

Going to be some high drama when CapricaBoomer, Helo and Kara eventually show up on Battlestar. Can't wait for those scenes with Adama and Tyrol. :)

And speaking of Adama. Jeez, it's good to have him back. I really appreciate the depth that EJO adds to that cast. Like Adama, I had a hard time believing that 1/3 of the fleet went with Roslin. And Roslin is really starting to buy her own act. This is not going to end well. :(

I guess Starbuck and the gang are heading for Kobol so they'll meet up with Roslin's group first. I hope Lee redeems himself over the next few episodes because while I can understand his "principles" I have a hard time believing he's going to ultimately go along with Roslin as messiah for the people. I'm more and more thinking that the priestess is a Cylon. Just a lot of manipulation going on there.

One note. I thought Adama's scene with Tyrol - talking about Boomer and his feelings for a machine was just about perfect. And I thought it was in character that he would go look at her body - trying to figure things out. But I didn't buy the whole breakdown scene. Just too much.

mountaineer
August 13th, 2005, 08:03 AM
Since I've started watching this series I yet to be disappointed. This last episode rocked. The performance by EJO was award winning as far as Iim concerned and also KS was excellent.
The cylon using women as breeding farms I'm sorry to say is something that has happened in our world history. Our history has demonstrated on numerous occasions that homo sapiens are the cruelist to each other.
I was glad the writers allowed Adama to finally grieve. How would we feel all that you thought you knew was a lie. And the people you love betray you.
BSG makes you think what would it truly be like if there were less than 50,000 people left on earth and you were fighting for survival.

Nothlit
August 13th, 2005, 10:23 AM
This was a bit of a different episode compared to the first four of the season, but I liked it just as much. The only thing that really bothered me was how willing Anders and his group were to let Boomer into their camp, knowing she's a cylon. That just didn't make sense to me at all. I can see how they might talk to her, listen to her, use her for information, but there's no way in hell they would take her back to their secret camp...

I was so glad to see someone *finally* talk about the fact that Galactica-Boomer was as human to them as anyone else, until they found out she wasn't. I was so tired of the usual line (especially from Tigh) that "she's a machine, and that's all she ever was." NO! Obviously people cared for her, loved her, knew her as a friend and fellow pilot, and trusted her. It's not just cut and dry, good vs. evil. I'm so glad this was finally brought up, and it was so appropriate that Adama was the one to say it...

Sela
August 13th, 2005, 10:38 AM
Was anyone else half-expecting Kara to scream, "We will not be your axotl tanks!" as she stabbed Simon?

Oh man, I did! I've been reading the 'Dune " series of books since high school 100 years ago. :) When she walked in there and I realized that it was the women hooked up, it hit me!!! That was great!!

Another thing that hit me was a section of Adama's scene with the chief. The dialog with: "Did you love her?" Chief:"I don't know...."
"If you think you loved her then you did. That's all love is really....thoughts."

That's almost word for word from a scene between Kevin Costner and Judd Nelson in the movie "Fandango". I nearly fell off my chair.

I also loved the line, "Zeus has returned to Olympus." Classic line.

Great episode.

Colonel Sharp
August 13th, 2005, 10:43 AM
I think this episode was sort of different then the others...I don't know why.

That doctor was really interesting I had a very small hunch that he was a cylon but a bigger one that he was just telling the truth.

And about the ships leaving the fleet, GOOD RIDANCE! Geez, its fine with me if they want to go back, just let em! I'm glad 2/3 of the fleet stayed.

The Ringer
August 13th, 2005, 10:44 AM
Anybody else bothered by Starbuck's reasoning for attacking Dr. Cylon? When he called her Starbuck I caught it right away that would probably be the signal to her that everything was not as it seemed but the more I thought about it that doesn't make a lot of sense.

In the make-believe world she was living in she knew that Anders brought her in and that there were others there - couldn't they have called told Dr. Cylon that she is "Starbuck"?

There just seems to be so many ways the Doc could've connected the callsign to her that it was a shallow way out by the writers...

Dahak
August 13th, 2005, 11:03 AM
The whole Kara/Starbuck thing didn't bother me. What bothered me is that when Starbuck found out that Anders "died" she didn't ask for Helo or anyone else. To me that is the lazy writing since if Helo would have been dead too then we would have known that the Doc was a cylon.

sharky277
August 13th, 2005, 01:03 PM
Anybody else bothered by Starbuck's reasoning for attacking Dr. Cylon? When he called her Starbuck I caught it right away that would probably be the signal to her that everything was not as it seemed but the more I thought about it that doesn't make a lot of sense.

In the make-believe world she was living in she knew that Anders brought her in and that there were others there - couldn't they have called told Dr. Cylon that she is "Starbuck"?

There just seems to be so many ways the Doc could've connected the callsign to her that it was a shallow way out by the writers...

She did see him with Six remember.

Redwall
August 13th, 2005, 02:31 PM
The whole Kara/Starbuck thing didn't bother me. What bothered me is that when Starbuck found out that Anders "died" she didn't ask for Helo or anyone else. To me that is the lazy writing since if Helo would have been dead too then we would have known that the Doc was a cylon.

I assumed Kara suspected Simon was a Cylon from the beginning and didn't want to give away information (hence the mum after slipping out "the president is a teacher" line). Although Starbuck certainly knew the Cylons knew Helo was there... so, erm, I don't know.

The whole "all you need is love" angle was sort of corny, but was saved by being simply a concise statement of what we already knew about the Cylon beliefs.

LoneStar1836
August 13th, 2005, 02:34 PM
Heh. Daddy is/was the artistic (read: bohemian) sort, mommy the puritanical. Unhappiness ensued, culminating Daddy's early death (or abandonment of family). Mommy transplanted resentment to Little Girl, reminder of the biggest mistake (read: Daddy). Which made Little Girl remember Daddy even more fondly, hence the piano-playing. Broken fingers could be the result of either punishment by Mommy or her stern discipline against the corrupting influence of music/art/Daddy.

Yeah, I'm gonna go with that story. :DThat is a nice story. ;)

I was kind of piecemealing that post together last night and forgot to complete my thought – that I didn’t think it was her father per say but that his piano was involved in whatever twisted punishment her mother was dishing out. Me and my posting of thoughts after getting up at 7:30am, driving 200 miles in 4 hr, watching BSG, and then staying up till 4am to post about it. It’s a wonder any of my post made sense. :D
I actually liked this episode a lot, although I'm glad to see the Caprica thread winding up.Me too. I don’t think they could have stretched that any farther than they did. I think it was timed just right that those particular Caprica storylines were wrapped up. Now I can see them possibly returning to Caprica in the foreseeable future, but the Helo/Boomer running and Kara/arrow/Anders had run its course. Any more would have just been dragging out the storyline, imo.
I was so glad to see someone *finally* talk about the fact that Galactica-Boomer was as human to them as anyone else, until they found out she wasn't. I was so tired of the usual line (especially from Tigh) that "she's a machine, and that's all she ever was." NO! Obviously people cared for her, loved her, knew her as a friend and fellow pilot, and trusted her. It's not just cut and dry, good vs. evil. I'm so glad this was finally brought up, and it was so appropriate that Adama was the one to say it...I absolutely agree that it’s not cut and dry about what these Cylons are. Ultimately I find them to fall on the side of evil, but Boomer and Leoben make for such sympathetic characters that I can’t help but feel for them and their “humanity”.

Tigh’s just being Tigh when he says those things. If he said something akin to what Adama said in this one, I’d be scared cause that is the last thing I’d expect to hear from him. That would be my clue to peg him as a Cylon. :D

People were in shock about Boomer. I don’t think they had had enough time to process those feelings in the first four episodes since hardly any time at all had passed. She had shot Adama, the man they all worship. How could she possibly be human in their eyes? This episode took place a week after the last one giving time for feelings to sink in that Boomer was more than a machine, especially for Tyrol and Adama, the two men most directly affected by her actions. Though last week’s episode showed Tyrol’s ultimate feelings for her in the end – that he cared for her. She was more than just a thing.

I really have to feel for CapBoomer who has to know what she is about to subject herself too by returning with Kara and Helo to the fleet (or in next week’s case Kobol). She loves Helo enough not to abandon him in the hopes that he won’t abandon her to the wolves if he can help it. Course her future with the Cylons doesn’t seem much brighter.

Who else thinks that this procreation for lurrve is going to end up being the cylon's undoing?Me. If that is the only way to assure a successful conception and birth, then they are screwed (no the pun is not intended :P). Boomer seems to be the only one so far capable of this. I truly think the Six in Baltar’s head loves him or she thinks she does, but I can’t see the other copies of her having such true emotions. I guess you have to worry about those men models as well, but do they really have to love the other person as deeply to have success……if not, then they could bypass the whole love thing, but maybe the love aspect is somehow connected to their desires to create beings with a true soul (if that is what they are trying to do in order to become closer to their god.) Interesting little wrench they have thrown into the Cylons’s plan I guess.

And please no pregnant Kara, no little mini-me Karas, or biological Kara children eventually running around. If there are going to be any clones making an appearance, they better be the Lee or Helo variety. ;) I hope the writers don’t have some lame excuse as to why Kara is “special”. If they are going to make something of this, I hope it fits nicely into the rest of the story. No wild lapses into soap opera land please. :D

Easter Lily
August 13th, 2005, 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Easter Lily
Who else thinks that this procreation for lurrve is going to end up being the cylon's undoing?
Me. If that is the only way to assure a successful conception and birth, then they are screwed (no the pun is not intended :P). Boomer seems to be the only one so far capable of this. I truly think the Six in Baltar’s head loves him or she thinks she does, but I can’t see the other copies of her having such true emotions. I guess you have to worry about those men models as well, but do they really have to love the other person as deeply to have success……if not, then they could bypass the whole love thing, but maybe the love aspect is somehow connected to their desires to create beings with a true soul (if that is what they are trying to do in order to become closer to their god.) Interesting little wrench they have thrown into the Cylons’s plan I guess.
It's not quite what I meant... although I can see what you're saying...
Correct me if I'm wrong but earlier on in the series, probably in the mini-series, I seem to remember Six telling Baltar that the invasion is some kind of "ethnic cleansing"... humanity has outlived its purpose and gone all corrupt and the cylons are now the "brave new world". Well, if they can only procreate by falling in love with humans, doesn't that mean that the whole ethnic cleansing agenda is now down the toilet. Won't they be having little hybrids running around? Not very homogenous... if you get my meaning...
(Just in case anyone thinks I'm being racist here, please don't go down that road okay... I'm of Asian extraction and my husband is Caucasian, so our daughter is a product of a cross-cultural combination.)
I think it will ultimately be the undoing of the cylons because their copies will eventually "turn on" them the way Caprica Boomer has, assuming that they are the large-scale conspirators that I believe them to be. I don't think the humans will ever defeat the cylons militarily so my bet's on "the love trap" to do the trick ;) .


And please no pregnant Kara, no little mini-me Karas, or biological Kara children eventually running around. If there are going to be any clones making an appearance, they better be the Lee or Helo variety. ;) I hope the writers don’t have some lame excuse as to why Kara is “special”. If they are going to make something of this, I hope it fits nicely into the rest of the story. No wild lapses into soap opera land please. :D
Hubs is convinced that Kara is pregnant or will become pregnant because if anyone has seen the something of the first series, Starbuck (Dirk Benedict) has a son through a rather mysterious woman, whom if memory serves, becomes the prodigious Dr Zee...
As for me I'm not sure... I think Dr Simon has tampered with her ovaries but what he's done exactly... your guess is as good as mine.
Dang it... I do love a good mystery...

LoneStar1836
August 13th, 2005, 04:38 PM
It's not quite what I meant... although I can see what you're saying...
Correct me if I'm wrong but earlier on in the series, probably in the mini-series, I seem to remember Six telling Baltar that the invasion is some kind of "ethnic cleansing"... humanity has outlived its purpose and gone all corrupt and the cylons are now the "brave new world". Well, if they can only procreate by falling in love with humans, doesn't that mean that the whole ethnic cleansing agenda is now down the toilet. Won't they be having little hybrids running around? Not very homogenous... if you get my meaning...
(Just in case anyone thinks I'm being racist here, please don't go down that road okay... I'm of Asian extraction and my husband is Caucasian, so our daughter is a product of a cross-cultural combination.)Ah, I see what you are getting at now. :) I was thinking more along the physical lines that if “love” was integral to their plan then they better have some other models scattered around that displayed that kind of emotion cause the Boomer models can’t do it all by themselves.

I think you are right there. I haven’t seen the mini in quite some time but that sounds correct. Interesting. If that was their goal, then they should have zero use for humans in any capacity. Though, personally I also interpret “ethnic cleansing” of humans as also doing away with pure-blooded humans so hybrids are an acceptable if not desired outcome of the breeding program they are now engaged in. I think the Cylons feel some kind of connection to humans because they were created by them even though they don’t regard them with high esteem. Breeding with them allows them to come one step closer to their god which in their minds is the same god that created humans who in turned created them. It also allows the Cylons to get the “human” race back on track so to speak and back in step with god's plan. They are trying to become better “humans” than the humans themselves. Not sure if that makes any sense except to me cause I’m not really expressing myself very well. Sorry.

ETA: They want to experience some things that are uniquely human like love, yet are incapable in their current “form”. I remembered this scene at the end of Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down:

Six: She thinks she loves him now, that she can't live without him. Her passion is making her more resourceful.
Doral: It bothers you, doesn't it?
Six: We'll get them in the end.
Doral: No, it bothers you that you've never experienced it.
Six: (chuckles) You saw the way Helo was when we took her away? He was pathetic.
Doral: I can't help wondering what it would be like to feel that intensely. Even in his anguish, he seemed... so alive.

You can see that that disturbs Six and causes her to shed a tear. I thought this was a really good scene as far as helping to understand them. I almost think the Six in Baltar's head (if a Cylon implant) has somewhat created her own agenda with Baltar and might not quite be following the Cylon playbook to the letter with him. Here we saw some actually Cylons lamenting about who they are or specifically what they aren't.

I think it will ultimately be the undoing of the cylons because their copies will eventually "turn on" them the way Caprica Boomer has, assuming that they are the large-scale conspirators that I believe them to be. I don't think the humans will ever defeat the cylons militarily so my bet's on "the love trap" to do the trick ;).You would think they would worry about that possibility.

Do you mean the original models (like Boomer) will turn on the Centurions, etc. (the mechanized versions) and hope to integrate back into the human world or that the human/cylon hybrid babies will eventually turn on both the human model cylons and their mechanical counterparts?

There is absolutely no way that this will be a military victory for the Colonials. They don’t have the capacity to battle the kind of military force posed by the Cylons. Unless…….War of the Worlds movie (yeah I finally got around to seeing it last week :D) the Cylons contract some kind of virus from all their “mingling” with humans which in turn infects the BaseStars which seem to have a biological component to them and Boom! They are defeated. :D Hmm…that still doesn’t count as a military victory unless you count what sailors do on shore leave as a military contribution…..

mikeforrest2003
August 13th, 2005, 05:02 PM
I think Zerek realizes his best chance at power is through President Roslin. He knows she's dying so he could theoretically be next in line for the Vice Presidency. Especially if he's one of the heroes opposing military takeover.

He's learned to work with the system instead of trying to destroy it. And there is of course he's rabble rousing without having as usual except with the potential for being a real hero!

I don't like the formere terrorist past bit though.

Side issue I'm glad they're giving Hatch more screen time. And sounds like he's going to get more this season.

As far as Dr. Simon I had him pegged as A Cylon from the start. Why Kara didn't figure it out sooner I can't figure out.

And that Heavy Raider did have a lot of room so you would think some of the resistance fighters would have wanted to escape Caprica and that Kara and Helo would have taken them.

Thermonuclearboy
August 13th, 2005, 05:39 PM
The whole Zarek backstory intrigues me. Unfortunately we never got much background into what Colonial civilization was like before the Cylon invasion, but it seems to me that it wasn't all that nice. Nominally a democracy, but with a strong military presence. Zarek was also something of a celebrity political prisoner - something you don't see very often in a free society. Given the fact that our human protagonists are so quick to start fighting with each other - although that could just be the stress of surviving the death of their civilization - seems to imply that they're all not used to trusting each other. Maybe the Colonial government was on the verge of disintegrating before the Cylons did it for them.

Interesting to note that the Cylons have latched onto a religious discipline they're physically incapable of adhering to. Their God tells them to "be fruitful and multiply," but they can't. Makes me wonder how they ever stumbled onto their religion. Although we now know what they want with humans. And quite possibly what they want with Earth; I for one am convinced that the Cylons WANT the humans to find the way to Earth. Otherwise they could have destroyed the fleet long ago. But why, exactly, is still open to speculation...

beamerxl
August 13th, 2005, 07:04 PM
When Adama was crying over Boomer's body, I think it was connected to his talk with Tyrol. I think he's realizing how much Boomer had him fooled, how much he cared for her as a person, and that if she of all people could be a Cylon, then anyone could. Anyone. That's something that's hard to handle.

I definitely think we're gonna see Cylon Starbucks. Wasn't it mentioned earlier this season that they need human DNA to create a human-form Cylon? I think Dr. Simon stole a couple of Starbuck's eggs to start making Cylon copies. As for her being "special," maybe there has to be a certain code in the DNA for it to be reproduced... kinda like the ancient gene in SG:A.

Easter Lily
August 13th, 2005, 09:14 PM
Ah, I see what you are getting at now. :) I was thinking more along the physical lines that if “love” was integral to their plan then they better have some other models scattered around that displayed that kind of emotion cause the Boomer models can’t do it all by themselves.
So you think that some cylons are more emotional than others? I suppose that could be it... However, I was under the impression that Caprica Boomer had more or less, excuse the expression, "tumbled into love". That having schemed and plotted to get Helo where she wanted him, she fell "victim" to the human propensity to be emotionally involved with her procreating partner. I think that Six has also had a taste of it but because Baltar isn't exactly the monogamous type, she hasn't experienced that kind of unconditional giving over that perhaps Boomer has.


I think you are right there. I haven’t seen the mini in quite some time but that sounds correct. Interesting. If that was their goal, then they should have zero use for humans in any capacity. Though, personally I also interpret “ethnic cleansing” of humans as also doing away with pure-blooded humans so hybrids are an acceptable if not desired outcome of the breeding program they are now engaged in.
You're probably right. I'm probably seeing it from Six's manipulative point of view. She's obviously trying to feed Baltar with all these negative half-truths about humanity being completely corrupt and a race of murderers that he's almost buying it himself. If he hasn't already. I wonder how much of it for her is rhetoric and how much she actually believes herself. You make a valid point about the fact the cylons may not need to have "pure breds" to be successful in their "ethnic cleansing" efforts. The Assyrian and Babylonian empires often took exiles from the countries they invaded and inter-married with those peoples as a way to exert and maintain their political and cultural dominance. It could be the same with the cylons. It wouldn't necessarily weaken the dominant power but could be deployed as a kind of an assimilationist strategy.

I think the Cylons feel some kind of connection to humans because they were created by them even though they don’t regard them with high esteem. Breeding with them allows them to come one step closer to their god which in their minds is the same god that created humans who in turned created them. It also allows the Cylons to get the “human” race back on track so to speak and back in step with god's plan. They are trying to become better “humans” than the humans themselves. Not sure if that makes any sense except to me cause I’m not really expressing myself very well. Sorry.
No problem... I'm rather interested myself to find out more about their propaganda machine/dogma. I often wonder where they discovered this strain of monotheism when the human culture which created them is so obviously polytheistic. I wonder also if there is a human consciousness behind them, driving all this. It could be that a human or group of humans were disillusioned with where the human race was heading and decided to throw their lot in with the cylons to create a race that would be more resolute and less corruptible, to be more human than the humans ever were. Or to fulfill the potential that humans were capable of but somehow had lost their way. Perhaps there has always been a group of individuals (a political or religious minority) on the colonies who believe that it is the destiny of their race to find Earth. However, with the complacency that has overtaken that culture... they haven't felt the need to do so. Hence, they have conspired with the cylons over the decades to bring about this upheaval.


Do you mean the original models (like Boomer) will turn on the Centurions, etc. (the mechanized versions) and hope to integrate back into the human world or that the human/cylon hybrid babies will eventually turn on both the human model cylons and their mechanical counterparts?
My initial thinking... the former... but I wouldn't put it past the writers to consider the latter scenario. This is afterall Battlestar Galactica.


There is absolutely no way that this will be a military victory for the Colonials. They don’t have the capacity to battle the kind of military force posed by the Cylons. Unless…….War of the Worlds movie (yeah I finally got around to seeing it last week :D) the Cylons contract some kind of virus from all their “mingling” with humans which in turn infects the BaseStars which seem to have a biological component to them and Boom! They are defeated. :D Hmm…that still doesn’t count as a military victory unless you count what sailors do on shore leave as a military contribution…..
Well, I wouldn't write off that possibility altogether... it is definitely a lot less humanistic and far more interesting. I don't expect explosions necessarily but if the cylons can be sneaky, the sky's the limit for pesky biological entities...
I doubt that what sailors do on shore leave counts as military contribution but perhaps the navy considers what the women do for their sailors on shore leave to be much more of a military contribution.

FeloniousMonk
August 13th, 2005, 10:20 PM
The whole Zarek backstory intrigues me. Unfortunately we never got much background into what Colonial civilization was like before the Cylon invasion, but it seems to me that it wasn't all that nice. Nominally a democracy, but with a strong military presence. Zarek was also something of a celebrity political prisoner - something you don't see very often in a free society. Given the fact that our human protagonists are so quick to start fighting with each other - although that could just be the stress of surviving the death of their civilization - seems to imply that they're all not used to trusting each other. Maybe the Colonial government was on the verge of disintegrating before the Cylons did it for them.

The Colonial government wasn't a single nation. Each of the Colonies was its' own seperate entity; they're more a United Nations type of government. They have their own laws and ways of life but agree to work together for the betterment of the species. Remember, the Cylons were originally created for use in the Colonial Wars when they used to fight each other. It was after the Cylons rebelled that humanity decided to stop fighting each other and defeat a common enemy. Remember, the Articles of Colonization were created not that long before the Cylon attacks.

Some of the colonies may have had a strong military government while others may have had very open and liberal societies. Some may have been democratic, others socialist or communist or perhaps even monarchies.

Easter Lily
August 13th, 2005, 11:57 PM
The whole Zarek backstory intrigues me. Unfortunately we never got much background into what Colonial civilization was like before the Cylon invasion, but it seems to me that it wasn't all that nice. Nominally a democracy, but with a strong military presence. Zarek was also something of a celebrity political prisoner - something you don't see very often in a free society. Given the fact that our human protagonists are so quick to start fighting with each other - although that could just be the stress of surviving the death of their civilization - seems to imply that they're all not used to trusting each other. Maybe the Colonial government was on the verge of disintegrating before the Cylons did it for them.

When I think of Zarek, I am immediately reminded of Gerry Adams, MP for West Belfast and president of Sinn Fein. Although he denies ever having been a part of the IRA, some British and Irish state papers name him as being a major figure in the IRA in the 1970s. Fascinating stuff...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Adams

Liebestraume
August 14th, 2005, 08:14 AM
The Colonial government wasn't a single nation. Each of the Colonies was its' own seperate entity; they're more a United Nations type of government. They have their own laws and ways of life but agree to work together for the betterment of the species. ...Except that this "United Nations" has a permanent "Peacekeeping Force" whose sole purpose is to defend the colonies from enemies without. In this way, they resemble a single nation with a federalist government. What boggles the mind, though, is that they also seemed to have a single, and perhaps even state-sponsered, religion. Consider the implausibility of the multitude of people on these different planets ascribing to the same belief system, I am inclined to accept it as the result of compromise in formimg the central government.

Which could explain the following question
Interesting to note that the Cylons have latched onto a religious discipline they're physically incapable of adhering to. Their God tells them to "be fruitful and multiply," but they can't. Makes me wonder how they ever stumbled onto their religion.Easter Lily suggested the possibility of a human conscience behind the cylons, and I suspect something similar. Except I don't think their status was "co-conspirator" with cylons; instead they were the original creators -- who happened to be monotheistic. Look at it this way, if you are in a religious or ethnic monority, wouldn't your top priority be to increase your numbers? As a human belief, "be fruitful and multiply" makes sense. Perhaps these humans simply created the first cylon in their own image, not knowing Pinocchio would one day evolve into something quite nasty.

FeloniousMonk
August 14th, 2005, 08:42 AM
http://www3.telus.net/public/akamyot/chistory.htm

Unfortunatly this doesn't seem to be canocal in any way. I've seen something describing similar histories and one from a seemingly official source but I can't for the life of me remember where. If I find it I'll let y'all know.

keshou
August 14th, 2005, 11:09 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but earlier on in the series, probably in the mini-series, I seem to remember Six telling Baltar that the invasion is some kind of "ethnic cleansing"... humanity has outlived its purpose and gone all corrupt and the cylons are now the "brave new world". Well, if they can only procreate by falling in love with humans, doesn't that mean that the whole ethnic cleansing agenda is now down the toilet. Won't they be having little hybrids running around? Not very homogenous... if you get my meaning...I think it will ultimately be the undoing of the cylons because their copies will eventually "turn on" them the way Caprica Boomer has, assuming that they are the large-scale conspirators that I believe them to be. I don't think the humans will ever defeat the cylons militarily so my bet's on "the love trap" to do the trick ;) .
The Cylons believe that humanity was created by god and they seem painfully aware that they are humanity's creation, not god's creation. I've always felt that the Cylons wanted to cleanse the humans down to a core group that they then to use to create hybrids that would be the next step closer to being "gods children". They are evolving. And this next evolution willl be closer to god because it would be a combination of god's original creation "humans" and the Cylons. Something they can't achieve on their own.

Like Lonestar, I think some of the Cylons are more emotional than the others. I've wondered if Boomer isn't the Cylon's "Fifth". The human models "evolved" and seem to have very different characteristics. Is there a human hand at work in this evolution as you and Liebestraume suggest? I wouldn't be surprised. Boomer almost seems to have been created as the model most capable of "love". She fell in love with Helo (as planned) but it's become the dominant force in her life (not planned. ) She fell in love with Tyrol. She was shattered that she shot Adama. All the "Sharons" kept saying "we love you Sharon" when Boomer was on their ship. I can't imagine all the "Six's" greeting each other like that.

If so - it may well be that this later model of human Cylon WILL be their Achilles heel. As the "Boomers" die their memories are downloaded into the central system. What effect does that have on all the other "Sharons" running around. Or even on the other Cylons. I don't think Six is really capable of love as much as manipulation but even she has seemed capable of having feelings. Of being hurt.


Hubs is convinced that Kara is pregnant or will become pregnant because if anyone has seen the something of the first series, Starbuck (Dirk Benedict) has a son through a rather mysterious woman, whom if memory serves, becomes the prodigious Dr Zee...
As for me I'm not sure... I think Dr Simon has tampered with her ovaries but what he's done exactly... your guess is as good as mine.
Dr. Cylon said he removed "part" of her ovaries. To run tests I guess. But if they have part of her ovaries they certainly could have her eggs. They could have also implanted her. We'll see.

I DO think there's a good chance - sorry LoneStar :p - that we may see some baby Karas or some CylonStarbucks before this is all over. They think she's "special", after all. And WHY, WHY is she special? WHY, WHY is Baltar special enough to be the "father" of the next generation.

This series is going to drive me crazy. But in a good way. :p :D

dec55
August 14th, 2005, 12:18 PM
It was great to see Grace/Boomer back on the show again. I am glad she
appears to be helping the humans again. Adama really cared for Boomer...
even when he found out she was a cylon..... I think him crying over her
body lets on that he knows more than most would think. Maybe she was
a double agent all along and her shooting Adama was a mistake in her programing they did not know about?

He has never cried for anyone that intense since the show began....
franky it really surprised me.

Maybe "love" was planted into the Cylon consiousness covertly by the colonials.
And maybe Adama and Sharon were part of this plot....who knows???

Easter Lily
August 14th, 2005, 04:31 PM
Dr. Cylon said he removed "part" of her ovaries. To run tests I guess. But if they have part of her ovaries they certainly could have her eggs. They could have also implanted her. We'll see.
Is that what he said? Oh okay... We tried replaying that scene several times over... and couldn't seem to hear it... Hmmm... I read in a synopsis elsewhere that that's what he did but that conversation between Simon and Six was hard to follow... Must listen to it again...


I DO think there's a good chance - sorry LoneStar :p - that we may see some baby Karas or some CylonStarbucks before this is all over. They think she's "special", after all. And WHY, WHY is she special? WHY, WHY is Baltar special enough to be the "father" of the next generation.

Is she special because of her reproductive abilities though? Or is she special because she has something to do with finding earth? My observation is that Simon looked rather disappointed that she was going to be sent on her merry way. I think he really wanted her as lead hen...

Oh, I certainly hope your putting Kara and Baltar together in the same paragraph isn't because you think that they're going to be the patriarch and matriarch of the next generation. The horror, the horror... :p ;)

The suspense is killing me... well, not quite... :D

Uber
August 14th, 2005, 04:58 PM
It was great to see Grace/Boomer back on the show again. I am glad she
appears to be helping the humans again. Adama really cared for Boomer...
even when he found out she was a cylon..... I think him crying over her
body lets on that he knows more than most would think. Maybe she was
a double agent all along and her shooting Adama was a mistake in her programing they did not know about?

He has never cried for anyone that intense since the show began....
franky it really surprised me.

Maybe "love" was planted into the Cylon consiousness covertly by the colonials.
And maybe Adama and Sharon were part of this plot....who knows???I also have been wondering if there's the potential for the BSG version of the Tok'ra...conscientious objectors who take an active stand and oppose the cylons on principle. That would make for an intriguing ally.

Sharon is still a mystery to me. She shot Adama but then it's like she had no idea she did it and was horrified by the thought. Did the "Sharons" on board the Cylon ship enter an override command into her that took over her temporarily and forced her to do something that's out of character? Kind of like in Water?

Then there's Sharon on Caprica who seems to be helping them (well now she's taking Kara and Helo back to Kobol)...why is she helping them?

Here's an intriguing thought...what if LOVE is not only the answer to solving the dilemma for procreation but is also the key to the downfall of the Cylons? The Sharons we've witnessed fall in love have been willing to "betray" the other Cylons to protect those they loved. With love comes compassion and self-sacrifice. Or is the Sharon model kind of like Fifth, more human than the other models and therefore more susceptible to human frailties?

Hmm...I'm going to have to mull over that for awhile...

:cool:

Mr. Seven
August 14th, 2005, 05:39 PM
My theory on Kara's ovaries -

Remember that around a week ago in the series..Baltar slepped with Kara...


Perhaps they are going to use their child as Model 13..

As for Kara's injuries, yeah I have to go with the Piano thing. Her mom probably slammed it shut on her while she was playing after her dad died.

Either that or they were broke from defending herself, but it looks like it was too precise to be that.

I look forward to some Helo and Apollo interaction in the coming episodes. Besides the wave in the mini they haven't talked ever.

To me it looked like they knew each other, but Ronald Moore says otherwise and he's writing the show ;)

zats
August 14th, 2005, 05:43 PM
Mmmmm. Dark. Edgy. Weird. Sounds good to me. [At least as BSG goes]

The Caprica plot was excellent. Kara whumps so well, doesn't she? And the Farms...suffice to say that they squicked me out. We'll leave it at that. To be honest, I was wondering when an ep like this would come up. It seems like all the darker shows have to do an ep where the baddies go poking around the uterine area--must be a requirement. The backstory was lovely (if decidedly creepish). Anyone know of any good Kara backstory fic?

Sue-Shaun...God, that was horrible. And very BSG. :cool:

Hate to say it (Kara/Lee will rule the WORLD!), but I like Anders. Hope he's not a toaster, but I don't know what to think anymore.

Good to see Adama the Elder back, if not quite all, um, there. He's definitely changed. Like a stroke victim, only 'victim' is not a would apply to Bill. Glad to see that Sharon's back. After she stole the raider I was afraid she'd do something really stupid.

All in all...mmmm.

larocque6689
August 14th, 2005, 05:49 PM
Here is this week's excerpts from RDM's podcast.

--

This episode in all honesty was probably the most controversial episode of the season, second only, maybe, to "Valley of Darkness" for much the same reasons. This episode is dark. This is a dark tale, this is a dark show many times. And the controversy on this show is how dark is too dark, how much is too much? Will this episode, and episodes like it scare the audience away? Actually, interestingly enough, the discussion became, will it scare the female audience away? Our research shows that more men than women watch the show, which is to be expected. It's typical in the scifi genre, and the question is, how do you get more female viewers? The question that I put to you, and you can answer it in a way that you see fit, is this show a good show for women? Here is a female character, hereoine, who we put the screws to all through the episode. It deals with a lot of fertility issues, reproductive issues, some of which may be potentially uncomfortable or distasteful. And the question is, does that drive female audiences away, or does it bring them to the party. In any case, regardless of the controversies, this is the episode that we made and fought for, and I quite strongly believe in, frankly.

--

Viewers might notice that the wound jumped from left to right. That was something we knew in the editing room. It was a choice that the editor made, and we went with. It's not a mistake. It's part of the surrealness of what's going on. It's Kara's mind becoming unmoored from its moorings as she goes under.

--

This man was almost killed. He was shot point blank in the chest [with] two bullets, lay in sickbay for a long time in literally a near-death experience. And that he shouldn't just come back from that exactly the way he was before. And what we start saying was that Adama's changed, Adama's different. The emotions are closer to the surface, things that the man has held down and tamped down for many years and for many reasons now come forth. Essentially his emotions tend to burst forth without his wanting them to. You can see them right here, just that little beat of him telling everyone how much they means to him. Isn't that something that the typical Adama would have done? He's much more stoic, keeps things closer to the vest. I love this little beat here where he says he feels closer to the ground somehow. And this will continue. You will see this aspect of Adama for the rest of the season.

--

This was one of the most controversial scenes, which resulted in endless discussions. "Is this just too distasteful?" Is it just too awful to suggest that a woman is getting some kind of pelvic exam. Will it just drive women away? And my attitude was, "Oh come on, are you kidding?" It's nothing you don't see on ER or 50 other hospital shows. There's a concept pushed back from us on the show that says there's nothing that's too real, too graphic, too disturbing to put on the air. Personally, I just think there are very few boundaries that you can really say that's a step too far, that you've really pushed the audience tolerance into a place where they're going to turn off the show. I think there are people offended by individual scenes, people may be put off by something you say, but do they really just grab the remote and change the channel in a pique of outrage over something? I don't really think so. A lot of those fears are overlblown. But that's just me, what do I know?

--

David Eick really felt that Simon should be able to get under [Kara's] skin as it were, much in the way Leoben did, and cut to the heart of who Kara is. That the Cylons have ways of getting inside your head and twisting things around and really understanding them in ways that you don't want them to. And that Simon got in there and figured out that all of her fingers had been broken, and essentially, we believe it's by her mother, because that's who we've set up. And it's a nasty bit of business, it's a nasty horrible part of who Kara is. It goes to the notion I've discussed on this podcast before. Well, if you're going to make Starbuck a rogue, and you're going to make her the hotshot pilot and does things her own way, and is the daredevil -- who is that person and why is she like that? It's a damaged person, it's a person who's really screwed up, and here's one of the reasons she's screwed up.

--

This I think is interesting because Laura decides as a tactic to play the religious card, as it were. To embrace the path that she's on, about being a prophet and the scriptures, which she now believes do hold some very literal truths in them, and she embraces that role publically and calls people to her banner in the name of their faith. And then is has a consequence, people start looking at her differently, they ask for blessings, they look at her as a prophet, a spokeswoman for the gods, and that eventually that's going to come back and bite Laura on the ass. And I think that's interesting, I think think it's what began as something, a tactic of the moment, something to get her through a crisis, then it carries larger and more profound implications -- morally, spiritually, ethically -- down the line. I think that's really interesting stuff.

--

There was a bit of business after they agree to let Sharon help them, where we were going to cut in cold, and you'd be on the tarmac on an airbase someplace, and the camera would pull back on the tarmac and find dead Cylons, Centurions and humanoid Cylons, all over just littering the tarmac, and then pull back again, all silent in one shot, and would be Sharon, standing on the tarmac with a gun in her hand, looking down at all the ones she had just killed in some ambush, and she'd just walk off camera towards the heavy raider.

--

This whole bit of business here with the Cylon's interest in reproduction and biology and ultimately the plot of this episode, has to do with the Cylons' drive and desire to biologically reproduce. This is a direct outgrowth of season one, where the ongoing storyline between Sharon and Helo on Caprica, as I started to really seriously think, "OK, what's going on down there?" ... Why are the Cylons putting them together, what's the game that's going on, what are they trying to get out of him? It couldn't be any use for military information, he doesn't know where Galactica is or anything like that, he's just a pilot. What are they doing? This notion came out of long discussions about who the Cylons really are, what are the things they lack, what is it they want to be, what is their image of God, what does it mean to be a person?

And what I came to was, they can't biologically reproduce. They cannot have children, and they have tried. But they are unable to fulfil that role as biologically living people, because they can't have children. And that in their view, that makes them something less than people. God created animals and plants and people all of whom can reproduce. The Cylons can build many copies and many bodies and download consciousness and all these amazing things, but they cannot do the simple act of having a child. And that makes them something less than us. And they are determined to figure that out. So, they embark on these programs, and this farm that Kara is part of is one of many that are strewn all over Caprica and the other Colonies, trying to conceive, trying to figure out ways that they can reproduce... They're using human women and other facilities they are using human men, and then a variety of in vitro programs are being tested in test tubes, and all kinds of different projects.

Helo and Sharon were together in a very specific experiment, because the Cylons came up with this idea that maybe the one thing that was missing, maybe the reason they couldn't biologically reproduce, because they lacked God's love, and that God is love, and that without love, perhaps they can never truly be people. So they put Helo and Sharon as a way to try and make him fall in love with her. They knew things about Sharon, they knew that she and Helo had traded looks, that there was something going on, that there was an attraction there. So they put Helo in a situation where he's made to be protective of her, to guard her, to care for her. She saves him, and they are on the road together for a while, and they're bonding. And his true feelings for her come out and she responds. And Helo does fall for her, and the amazing thing is that Sharon fell in love with Helo, and that she turned on her own people out of love, and that was a wild card that they hadn't really anticipated. That love, true love, would cut both ways. And so Helo and Sharon then went on their own and did conceive a child. So the experiment worked. There really is a validity in this universe to the notion that there is such a thing as love, it is stronger than science, and perhaps it is bestowed by God or by the gods to people, and even Cylons, and that there's something special about that in the Galactica universe.

--

And Kara is special, Kara has a destiny. She has something that Leoben alluded to, and that everyone mentions every once in a while, that Kara is not just another person. There is something that's going to happen to her. And what did they do to Kara? They took some of her ovaries. And what are they going to do with those? Are they going to be just rolling little Kara's back here on Caprica, if they can figure out ways to conceive children other than falling in love? Who knows? It leaves her damaged, it leaves her having taken a loss, and it leaves her changed as well. And she wants to go after these farms, and wreak havoc and vengeance on this whole thing.

Liebestraume
August 14th, 2005, 06:06 PM
Sharon is still a mystery to me. She shot Adama but then it's like she had no idea she did it and was horrified by the thought. Did the "Sharons" on board the Cylon ship enter an override command into her that took over her temporarily and forced her to do something that's out of character? Kind of like in Water?The Sharon on Galactica didn't know she was a cylon, and that was why she had blended in so well for the past two years. Every time she did something cylon-y, it was like a hidden program taking over. Kind of like the good Dr. Jeckyll didn't know about the wicked Mr. Hyde. No extraneous interference required.


Then there's Sharon on Caprica who seems to be helping them (well now she's taking Kara and Helo back to Kobol)...why is she helping them?Probably because she, as you said, fell in love. Or maybe she only helps them until another hidden program takes over. Who knows?

One thing we do know is that not all cylons are created equal. Not even all Sharons were. Makes one wonder about their preoccupation with procreation. Surely, they could make as many copies as they wanted and make them sufficiently different? Me thinks keshou hit the nail on its head: cylons have an inferiority complex :p, and through procreation they wanted to get one step closer to their god.

ETA -- larocque6689, thanks for doing the prodcast recap week after week. Awwww, RDM sounds like such a big softie this week. *sniff*

zats
August 14th, 2005, 06:09 PM
Here is this week's excerpts from RDM's podcast:

Actually, interestingly enough, the discussion became, will it scare the female audience away? Our research shows that more men than women watch the show, which is to be expected. It's typical in the scifi genre, and the question is, how do you get more female viewers? The question that I put to you, and you can answer it in a way that you see fit, is this show a good show for women?
Easy. The testosterone kamikazies pull the male viewers. We women, on the other hand, are somewhat lacking in that respect. If you simply must go the bikini route, have a few more grrls who wouldn't dream of it. And make them equal or better. We're bombarded with enough super-attractive, super-smart 'heroines'--but they aren't role models, they're male fantasies really]. Give us something we can relate to.

--


There was a bit of business after they agree to let Sharon help them, where we were going to cut in cold, and you'd be on the tarmac on an airbase someplace, and the camera would pull back on the tarmac and find dead Cylons, Centurions and humanoid Cylons, all over just littering the tarmac, and then pull back again, all silent in one shot, and would be Sharon, standing on the tarmac with a gun in her hand, looking down at all the ones she had just killed in some ambush, and she'd just walk off camera towards the heavy raider.

Whoa. That would've been so frakking awesome...[delightful shivers]


--


Kara is special.
Yup. And that's why we love her. [begin Snoopy dance]

Uber
August 14th, 2005, 06:19 PM
The Sharon on Galactica didn't know she was a cylon, and that was why she had blended in so well for the past two years. Every time she did something cylon-y, it was like a hidden program taking over. Kind of like the good Dr. Jeckyll didn't know about the wicked Mr. Hyde. No extraneous interference required.

Probably because she, as you said, fell in love. Or maybe she only helps them until another hidden program takes over. Who knows?

One thing we do know is that not all cylons are created equal. Not even all Sharons were. Makes one wonder about their preoccupation with procreation. Surely, they could make as many copies as they wanted and make them sufficiently different? Me thinks keshou hit the nail on its head: cylons have an inferiority complex :p, and through procreation they wanted to get one step closer to their god.Sure but she found out she was a cylon after seeing a dozen hers aboard the cylon ship.

And the dead look in her eyes when she shot Adama and then seemed to snap out of it seemed like they (the cylons) uploaded an override command for her to shoot Adama and she did it almost in a trance state. Once it was done she was back to being her.

As for the preoccupation with procreation...it's all summed up by RDM:


They cannot have children, and they have tried. But they are unable to fulfil that role as biologically living people, because they can't have children. And that in their view, that makes them something less than people. God created animals and plants and people all of whom can reproduce. The Cylons can build many copies and many bodies and download consciousness and all these amazing things, but they cannot do the simple act of having a child. And that makes them something less than us. :cool:

Liebestraume
August 14th, 2005, 06:39 PM
Sure but she found out she was a cylon after seeing a dozen hers aboard the cylon ship.Then you must have underestimated the power of denial. It has been very well established that she didn't want to believe she was cylon, although she had harbored suspisions for a while. There was only a very short amount of time elapsed between then and her shooting Adama for her to properly process that new info.


And the dead look in her eyes when she shot Adama and then seemed to snap out of it seemed like they (the cylons) uploaded an override command for her to shoot Adama and she did it almost in a trance state.Perhaps. However, if the "trance state" must be induced by external command, then who trigger her sabotage of the water tanks? Why did she have to struggle mightily to even tell Crashdown that she saw water?


As for the preoccupation with procreation...it's all summed up by RDM.Yes, thanks for pointing that out. I didn't see the post when I pressed the "Reply" button.

FeloniousMonk
August 14th, 2005, 06:52 PM
As for Kara's injuries, yeah I have to go with the Piano thing. Her mom probably slammed it shut on her while she was playing after her dad died.

Either that or they were broke from defending herself, but it looks like it was too precise to be that.

Actually it's something that happens far too frequently. Abusive parents will punish their children by breaking a finger. Have to let 'em heal before breaking them again so the kid can screw up ten times before the parent has to find another form of abuse.

I'm not saying the piano bit isn't likely but I'm assuming that Moore is trying to reference more common forms of child abuse. Christ, this is a dark show..

Uber
August 14th, 2005, 07:11 PM
Then you must have underestimated the power of denial. It has been very well established that she didn't want to believe she was cylon, although she had harbored suspisions for a while. There was only a very short amount of time elapsed between then and her shooting Adama for her to properly process that new info.

Perhaps. However, if the "trance state" must be induced by external command, then who trigger her sabotage of the water tanks? Why did she have to struggle mightily to even tell Crashdown that she saw water?

Yes, thanks for pointing that out. I didn't see the post when I pressed the "Reply" button.You're right...she wondered it...believed it...took that test and passed it (or at least that's what Gaius said)...she wanted to believe it but really didn't fully...and then at some point realized she really was a cylon and almost took her life...

Perhaps the cylons transmitted an order to her that took control at just the right minute. Perhaps the Sharons didn't specifically give her the order, but that instead as a cylon she received the order and carried it out in that trance like state as in Water...except this time, she didn't have to wonder about it later...she was certain she was the one who shot Adama.

It seems that Sharon is a contradiction unto herself...because she loves Adama yet she shot him...she loves her friends, yet had a hard time telling them about the water. She loves them...yet betrays them.

Again I have to wonder if perhaps the Sharon model is the cylon version of Fifth...perhaps closer to human but still deeply flawed and perverted by cylon reasoning...

I also ask again if LOVE is the cylon's Achilles heel...they need it to reproduce and fulfill their perceived destiny but in doing so they humanize themselves more and must deal with the ramifications of those emotions...the complications attached to caring and loving...

Can they have the emotions of people yet coldheartedly murder millions of people?

:cool:

zats
August 14th, 2005, 07:15 PM
I think so. It would be hard to comprehend a horror of that magnitude (even if you're a supercomputer)--maybe it was just as easy as flipping a light switch. Generally speaking, it's the small, everyday emotional triggers that cause the most grief.

Easter Lily
August 14th, 2005, 07:43 PM
Actually it's something that happens far too frequently. Abusive parents will punish their children by breaking a finger. Have to let 'em heal before breaking them again so the kid can screw up ten times before the parent has to find another form of abuse.

I'm not saying the piano bit isn't likely but I'm assuming that Moore is trying to reference more common forms of child abuse. Christ, this is a dark show..
The fact that Kara reacted so violently to this revelation, suggests to me anyway, that it was child abuse...

Easter Lily
August 14th, 2005, 08:04 PM
You're right...she wondered it...believed it...took that test and passed it (or at least that's what Gaius said)...she wanted to believe it but really didn't fully...and then at some point realized she really was a cylon and almost took her life...

Perhaps the cylons transmitted an order to her that took control at just the right minute. Perhaps the Sharons didn't specifically give her the order, but that instead as a cylon she received the order and carried it out in that trance like state as in Water...except this time, she didn't have to wonder about it later...she was certain she was the one who shot Adama.

It seems that Sharon is a contradiction unto herself...because she loves Adama yet she shot him...she loves her friends, yet had a hard time telling them about the water. She loves them...yet betrays them.

Again I have to wonder if perhaps the Sharon model is the cylon version of Fifth...perhaps closer to human but still deeply flawed and perverted by cylon reasoning...

A contradiction or a controlled being? I wonder...
I don't know that all the copies have equal knowledge of who they are or of what they're mission is. Evidence so far suggests... no... I tend to think that they are all separate personalities as a result of separate memories and separate experiences. Reminds me of the Thomas Riker/William Riker scenario...


Can they have the emotions of people yet coldheartedly murder millions of people?
:cool:
Well, we certainly don't need to look too deeply into history to know the answer to that...

beamerxl
August 14th, 2005, 08:15 PM
Boomer's "trance" reminds me most of the za'tarcs from SG:1. And it sort of makes sense... she might have been "programmed" for her Cylon part to take over if certain conditions are met. For example, she gets back to Galactica, she can tell something is up. Lee is in handcuffs, I can't remember if someone mentions the presidents' actions or not, but if she knew the president was in the brig, it would have been the perfect time for her programming to kick in. The civilian leader is down, so take out the military leader and the fleet breaks out into chaos.

That's my theory anyway. Whether she had this programming all along or got it from the Sharon copies, I donno. But I think the time was right to take a shot at Adama, so the Cylons took control of her and did it.

Uber
August 14th, 2005, 08:20 PM
A contradiction or a controlled being? I wonder...
I don't know that all the copies have equal knowledge of who they are or of what they're mission is. Evidence so far suggests... no... I tend to think that they are all separate personalities as a result of separate memories and separate experiences. Reminds me of the Thomas Riker/William Riker scenario...Well we know that some were programmed to think they were human (by the season one intro that is...)
Well, we certainly don't need to look too deeply into history to know the answer to that...LOL...

Interesting you bring that up because I thought about that as I was posting.

But I think what I mean is that will they continue to be able to kill with reckless abandon as they move closer and closer to having the deep human emotions they require to fulfill their self-perceived destiny?

Obviously we know that people can kill. And obviously we know that people can kill on a grand scale. Like you said...history is chock full of examples. But I would contend that those who were mass murders were not seeking to better themselves and fulfill a destiny they perceive is guided by God by learning about and falling in love and gaining the other traits that come with love...self sacrifice, devotion, empathy...

So as the cylons evolve and develop these kinds of deeper feelings and character traits, will they be able to reconcile murdering on a grand scale as they learn and grow in love, sympathy and so on?

:cool:

LoneStar1836
August 14th, 2005, 08:51 PM
Last week Anders made mention that they had seen other Cylons in Colonial uniform. (Now I’m going on the assumption that he was correct in this statement and they weren’t just some hapless soldiers that were killed before they could explain themselves.)

Ok. This week Boomer makes an appearance and when she does, Anders asks Helo “who’s this?” Obviously he hasn’t seen her before so……...I’m assuming then they saw/captured/killed another Cylon wearing a uniform. So there is the possibility that another model is posing as a member of the Colonial military. I know the possibility has existed all along, but in my mind, that adds a little more credence to the possibility. Anyway, I just though it was interesting that Anders had never seen Boomer before.

Guess I’m just going to have to fanwank over why Starbuck or Helo never asked him to describe what this supposed Cylon(s) in uniform looked like. Male or female? About how old? Etc. Or just hope that they did and we’ll hear about it down the road.


Hmm…as far as the interesting conversation about whether GalBoomer was a self-sufficient model or was being externally triggered…… I’m going with embedded programming that triggered certain actions and not someone elsewhere pushing the “destroy water tanks” button or the “kill Adama” button. GalBoomer was programmed to think she was human. At certain points the human programming shutdown and the embedded Cylon programming kicked in. The human side just experienced blackouts and didn’t have a clue what happened. Though she obviously had her doubts which intensified to the point of attempted suicide (which I believe was prevented subconsciously by the Cylon programming because she had yet to complete her ultimate goal of shooting Adama).

Uber
August 14th, 2005, 09:06 PM
Last week Anders made mention that they had seen other Cylons in Colonial uniform. (Now I’m going on the assumption that he was correct in this statement and they weren’t just some hapless soldiers that were killed before they could explain themselves.)

Ok. This week Boomer makes an appearance and when she does, Anders asks Helo “who’s this?” Obviously he hasn’t seen her before so……...I’m assuming then they saw/captured/killed another Cylon wearing a uniform. So there is the possibility that another model is posing as a member of the Colonial military. I know the possibility has existed all along, but in my mind, that adds a little more credence to the possibility. Anyway, I just though it was interesting that Anders had never seen Boomer before.

Guess I’m just going to have to fanwank over why Starbuck or Helo never asked him to describe what this supposed Cylon(s) in uniform looked like. Male of female? About how old? Etc. Or just hope that they did and we’ll hear about it down the road.


Hmm…as far as the interesting conversation about whether GalBoomer was a self-sufficient model or was being externally triggered…… I’m going with imbedded programming that triggered certain actions and not someone elsewhere pushing the “destroy water tanks” button or the “kill Adama” button. GalBoomer was programmed to think she was human. At certain points the human programming shutdown and the imbedded Cylon programming kicked in. The human side just experienced blackouts and didn’t have a clue what happened. Though she obviously had her doubts which intensified to the point of attempted suicide (which I believe was prevented subconsciously by the Cylon programming because she had yet to complete her ultimate goal of shooting Adama).Several very interesting points. Very well thought out.

Not sure about the embedded programming thing to the extent you are proposing though. In order for this to be true, the cylons would have to have known that Boomer would make it off of Caprica and back to the Galactica for starters plus they'd have to have been able to see far into the future...so I'm still kinda leaning toward an external trigger to override her for a specific mission based on current events that the cylons could not have known. I mean they know general things about future events, but they aren't omniscient. But I could be wrong. It's happened before and it'll happen again I'm sure...

Regarding Anders, that's a really good point. Why didn't they get information about what these Colonial cylons looked like? That's not only valuable intelligence, that's VITAL intelligence...especially with them returning to the fleet.

:cool:

Lightsabre
August 14th, 2005, 10:04 PM
Which could explain the following questionEaster Lily suggested the possibility of a human conscience behind the cylons, and I suspect something similar. Except I don't think their status was "co-conspirator" with cylons; instead they were the original creators -- who happened to be monotheistic. Look at it this way, if you are in a religious or ethnic monority, wouldn't your top priority be to increase your numbers? As a human belief, "be fruitful and multiply" makes sense. Perhaps these humans simply created the first cylon in their own image, not knowing Pinocchio would one day evolve into something quite nasty.[/COLOR]
Hmm, my idea is quite different.
The cylons rebelled. Why?
I think one of them developed it's own conciousness. I think this is the 'God' they keep referring to.
I think 'God' is simply the original cylon rebel!!

Uber
August 14th, 2005, 10:13 PM
Hmm, my idea is quite different.
The cylons rebelled. Why?
I think one of them developed it's own conciousness. I think this is the 'God' they keep referring to.
I think 'God' is simply the original cylon rebel!!That's an intriguing possibility.

We don't know a whole lot about the cylons except what the information provided at the beginning of season 1 eps and now...they were created by man...they rebelled...some are programmed to think they are human...blah blah blah

I don't remember everything about the miniseries...I remember the first scenes with Sixth and the ambassador...so perhaps their origin was covered partially there...but generally speaking, do we know WHEN the cylons were made?

Did they have full awareness from the getgo or did that come from their evolution? When did they evolve? How long after they evolved did they come to the belief that they must annihilate humanity?

I'm intrigued by your idea about perhaps the first aware cylon became their god.

:cool:

Easter Lily
August 14th, 2005, 10:16 PM
But I think what I mean is that will they continue to be able to kill with reckless abandon as they move closer and closer to having the deep human emotions they require to fulfill their self-perceived destiny?

Obviously we know that people can kill. And obviously we know that people can kill on a grand scale. Like you said...history is chock full of examples. But I would contend that those who were mass murders were not seeking to better themselves and fulfill a destiny they perceive is guided by God by learning about and falling in love and gaining the other traits that come with love...self sacrifice, devotion, empathy...

So as the cylons evolve and develop these kinds of deeper feelings and character traits, will they be able to reconcile murdering on a grand scale as they learn and grow in love, sympathy and so on?

:cool:
Well, it's a very interesting paradox pertaining to the humanizing of the cylons... And one that I think I would like to see explored. Is it possible to be more human than humans... Well, it all depends what you think being human means. Actually I'm glad you brought this up... it's reminded me of something that I was going to add to one of my earlier posts.
Dr Whovians will know what I'm talking about when I refer to the Daleks, cold, calculating machine from which emotions have been stripped and are designed to be the ultimate killing machine. Their creator believed that emotions are a weakness... it impairs judgement and hampers the ability to act decisively. A lack of emotions is supposedly able to make them superior. When one of these creatures was as it were "switched on" by the Doctor's companion, it regenerated but with the capacity for feeling because it absorbed human DNA as a by-product. Not long afterwards, this creature self-destructs because it is now "weakened" by feelings and cannot fulfil its raison de'tre, which is to destroy all other living creatures. Initially I did perhaps see some similarities between the Daleks and the cylons but having thought over some of the points raised by others here, I'm now not so sure.
Part of this uncertainty comes from the fact that we don't really know what the cylons' ultimate aim is... they desire to procreate more out of obedience than for need. They seem to be anxious for the humans to find earth but why? At times, they have a desire to help, at other times they seem hellbent on hindering... And there is also the matter of how much of what they say about themselves can be trusted?

From all initial appearances, cylons do not apparently believe that emotions will hinder their ability to achieve their ends. They do need it, so we are told, to procreate effectively. It is evidently part of their quest to become the heirs of humanity. Some of them are capable of greater feeling than the others. So where does that leave us...
It's interesting that Six eggs Baltar by saying that humanity is defined by its propensity to kill... whether it's something she really believes in or whether it's the manipulation talking... *shrugs shoulders* But maybe the cylons are proving that they are true children of humanity by their apparent ruthlessness in taking life... :p
While I agree that most mass murderers are not motivated by love and at least in our reality, many have been motivated by the belief that they are on a mission from God. That may serve to suppress their better feelings.
I guess, what I'm trying to say is that I don't think having feelings or the lack of it is always a factor in murder. One of the thing that always surprises people about terrorists is that many of them are ordinary people with families. There are many reasons that drive people to murder and love is often one of them.

Sorry if I'm not making sense...

LoneStar1836
August 14th, 2005, 10:21 PM
Not sure about the embedded programming thing to the extent you are proposing though. In order for this to be true, the cylons would have to have known that Boomer would make it off of Caprica and back to the Galactica for starters plus they'd have to have been able to see far into the future...so I'm still kinda leaning toward an external trigger to override her for a specific mission based on current events that the cylons could not have known. I mean they know general things about future events, but they aren't omniscient. But I could be wrong. It's happened before and it'll happen again I'm sure...I know the embedded program is rather contingent on them “knowing” what events are going to take place so that is a good point and a good reason to have some kind of external control over this particular Boomer.

How far reaching could this control be? I guess it would have to be another Cylon hidden in the fleet unless they are able to send signals over vast distances. But then how does someone on a Base Star know what’s going on on Galactica? I guess that is where another embedded Cylon posing as military would come in. Maybe he/she was the one that planted the bomb on Boomer’s Raptor in “Water” and the one triggering her. *shrug* I think valid arguments could be made for both sides and probably moreso for the theory that someone was controlling Boomer. :)

How did they know that Baltar would make it off of Caprica? What would be the point of implanting a Six chip in him (if that is indeed what it is and he’s not just crazy) unless there was some certainty that he would escape from Caprica with Boomer.

The Cylons talk a good game when it comes to them saying that “all of this has happened before and all of this will happen again” blah blah blah. They’d make great salesmen cause I seem to somewhat buy into that. :D I do think that they are manipulating certain events though in order to play into “their” story – they have an idea of how they want things to play out, so they act accordingly to see that they do.

So I guess it’s kind of a toss-up for me. Her being triggered externally makes the most logical sense, but like I said, I’m kind of buying into their religious mumbo jumbo about how events are destined.

Uber
August 14th, 2005, 10:29 PM
Well, it's a very interesting paradox pertaining to the humanizing of the cylons... And one that I think I would like to see explored. Is it possible to be more human than humans... Well, it all depends what you think being human means. Actually I'm glad you brought this up... it's reminded me of something that I was going to add to one of my earlier posts.
Dr Whovians will know what I'm talking about when I refer to the Daleks, cold, calculating machine from which emotions have been stripped and are designed to be the ultimate killing machine. Their creator believed that emotions are a weakness... it impairs judgement and hampers the ability to act decisively. A lack of emotions is supposedly able to make them superior. When one of these creatures was as it were "switched on" by the Doctor's companion, it regenerated but with the capacity for feeling because it absorbed human DNA as a by-product. Not long afterwards, this creature self-destructs because it is now "weakened" by feelings and cannot fulfil its raison de'tre, which is to destroy all other living creatures. Initially I did perhaps see some similarities between the Daleks and the cylons but having thought over some of the points raised by others here, I'm now not so sure.
Part of this uncertainty comes from the fact that we don't really know what the cylons' ultimate aim is... they desire to procreate more out of obedience than for need. They seem to be anxious for the humans to find earth but why? At times, they have a desire to help, at other times they seem hellbent on hindering... And there is also the matter of how much of what they say about themselves can be trusted?

From all initial appearances, cylons do not apparently believe that emotions will hinder their ability to achieve their ends. They do need it, so we are told, to procreate effectively. It is evidently part of their quest to become the heirs of humanity. Some of them are capable of greater feeling than the others. So where does that leave us...

While I agree that most mass murderers are not motivated by love and at least in our reality, many have been motivated by the belief that they are on a mission from God. That may serve to suppress their better feelings.
I guess, what I'm trying to say is that I don't think having feelings or the lack of it is always a factor in murder. One of the thing that always surprises people about terrorists is that many of them are ordinary people with families. There are many reasons that drive people to murder and love is often one of them.

Sorry if I'm not making sense...I thought about that too and that's an excellent point...

I think that's why I did my level best to focus on their need to evolve into loving beings with the "mission from their god" thing as merely the motivation for their actions...

I keep thinking about the Replicators here...they wanted to correct the mistake in Reese and thought they did so with Fifth...but he was too human, with human emotions and was therefore a mistake...

But I like your question and I think it's a good one: Is it possible to be more human than humans...

I'd like to add on the following to that thought...by becoming more human, do they then put themselves in a situation where there are elements of cylondom that are too human and are therefore corrupt and need to be annihilated. Which is one of the reasons I asked is LOVE the cylons' Achilles heel? They need it to fulfill their destiny but in doing so they become more human and therefore more like the "corrupt" beings they kill...

:cool:

Uber
August 14th, 2005, 10:36 PM
I know the embedded program is rather contingent on them “knowing” what events are going to take place so that is a good point and a good reason to have some kind of external control over this particular Boomer.

How far reaching could this control be? I guess it would have to be another Cylon hidden in the fleet unless they are able to send signals over vast distances. But then how does someone on a Base Star know what’s going on on Galactica? I guess that is where another embedded Cylon posing as military would come in. Maybe he/she was the one that planted the bomb on Boomer’s Raptor in “Water” and the one triggering her. *shrug* I think valid arguments could be made for both sides and probably moreso for the theory that someone was controlling Boomer. :)

How did they know that Baltar would make it off of Caprica? What would be the point of implanting a Six chip in him (if that is indeed what it is and he’s not just crazy) unless there was some certainty that he would escape from Caprica with Boomer.

The Cylons talk a good game when it comes to them saying that “all of this has happened before and all of this will happen again” blah blah blah. They’d make great salesmen cause I seem to somewhat buy into that. :D I do think that they are manipulating certain events though in order to play into “their” story – they have an idea of how they want things to play out, so they act accordingly to see that they do.

So I guess it’s kind of a toss-up for me. Her being triggered externally makes the most logical sense, but like I said, I’m kind of buying into their religious mumbo jumbo about how events are destined.Futhermore, they seem to push for prophecy to be fulfilled if you will in some areas...but then it seemed as though Sixth on Caprica really was trying to kill Kara to prevent her from bringing the arrow back to Kobol. So although they believe the prophecy will be fulfilled, they only support parts of it. Either that or the prophecy has someone trying to kill the one sent to retrieve the arrow and they were fulfilling their role...

:cool:

Easter Lily
August 14th, 2005, 10:39 PM
Hmm, my idea is quite different.
The cylons rebelled. Why?
I think one of them developed it's own conciousness. I think this is the 'God' they keep referring to.
I think 'God' is simply the original cylon rebel!!
I have considered that possibility previously but backed down from that theory because I can't see them developing a such a sophisticated philosophical base and mythos in just 40 years.
That and the fact that I don't believe a creature can evolve without outside help...

LoneStar1836
August 14th, 2005, 10:50 PM
Futhermore, they seem to push for prophecy to be fulfilled if you will in some areas...but then it seemed as though Sixth on Caprica really was trying to kill Kara to prevent her from bringing the arrow back to Kobol. So although they believe the prophecy will be fulfilled, they only support parts of it. Either that or the prophecy has someone trying to kill the one sent to retrieve the arrow and they were fulfilling their role...

:cool:Hmm never thought about that - why Six attacks Starbuck in the museum. That really doesn’t make any sense. :S If Starbuck is “special,” then why try to kill her? (Unless Six was just trying to capture her.) And on top of that why try to prevent her from bringing back the arrow if indeed they do want the humans to find Earth? I hope RDM eventually has a good explanation for that. :D

Easter Lily
August 14th, 2005, 11:48 PM
Hmm never thought about that - why Six attacks Starbuck in the museum. That really doesn’t make any sense. :S If Starbuck is “special,” then why try to kill her? (Unless Six was just trying to capture her.) And on top of that why try to prevent her from bringing back the arrow if indeed they do want the humans to find Earth? I hope RDM eventually has a good explanation for that. :D

I have a theory for that... I think it's part of the whole smoke and mirrors thing. They do want the colonists to find earth... but they don't want the colonists to think that they want them to find earth... Throw them off their guard or off the scent... that sort of thing. What's one copy to them, right?
Make sense? :D

Subterfuge... yes... that's the word I was looking for... :D

Rian
August 15th, 2005, 01:36 AM
First of all, hi! I'm new at the forums. I've been reading things for a couple of months, but i decided it's about time to register... so here i am. :)

After seeing the last episode, I was somewhat disappointed. It's definitely one of the worst episodes in my opinion. Of course, we meet a new cylon model, but i think the miraculous return of Boomer is a bit... too miraculous. I really think 20 eps/season is a bit too much. I loved the last season where all episodes were really intense; lots of action; but the last 2 episodes were really missing something. Anyway that's what I think about it.

Uber
August 15th, 2005, 02:16 AM
First of all, hi! I'm new at the forums. I've been reading things for a couple of months, but i decided it's about time to register... so here i am. :)

After seeing the last episode, I was somewhat disappointed. It's definitely one of the worst episodes in my opinion. Of course, we meet a new cylon model, but i think the miraculous return of Boomer is a bit... too miraculous. I really think 20 eps/season is a bit too much. I loved the last season where all episodes were really intense; lots of action; but the last 2 episodes were really missing something. Anyway that's what I think about it.First off...Welcome to the GW forum! I hope you have fun here...

Secondly, what miraculous return? Sharon took off from the museum and left Helo and Kara there without a means of escape but she didn't leave the planet. I see nothing farfetched about her claim to have been tracking them...

:cool:

Easter Lily
August 15th, 2005, 03:35 AM
First of all, hi! I'm new at the forums. I've been reading things for a couple of months, but i decided it's about time to register... so here i am. :)

After seeing the last episode, I was somewhat disappointed. It's definitely one of the worst episodes in my opinion. Of course, we meet a new cylon model, but i think the miraculous return of Boomer is a bit... too miraculous. I really think 20 eps/season is a bit too much. I loved the last season where all episodes were really intense; lots of action; but the last 2 episodes were really missing something. Anyway that's what I think about it.

While I didn't think it was one of the stronger episodes, it certainly had its moments. I rather suspected that it wouldn't be quite the whirlwind event that was the first four... It didn't hang together quite as well... and as some of the others have said, I'm more than happy that the Caprica thread has wound down. As much as I like Helo, I'm rather more interested in the goings on of the Galactica.

Sorry to hear you didn't like the last two but I wouldn't write off the 20 eps season yet... From what I've read I think it'll get better. Season 1 had its less than stellar eps as well so I won't worry. Keep posting though... the more the merrier...
I await next week's episode with much eagerness. :D

Liebestraume
August 15th, 2005, 07:56 PM
Something from the Adama/Tyrol exchange has been bothering me since it aired. Thought I'd toss it out there and see what you guys/gals make of it.

Adama: Did you love her, Chief?
Tyrol: Excuse me?
Adama: Boomer. Did you love her?
Tyrol: I thought I did.
Adama: When you think you love somebody, you love them. That's what love is ... thoughts.
Tyrol: ...
Adama: She was a cylon ... machine. Is that what Boomer was, a machine? A thing.
Tyrol: That's what she turned out to be.
Adama: She was more than that to us. She was more than that to me. She was a vital living person ... aboard my ship ... for more than two years. She couldn't've been just a machine. Could you love a machine?I can totally see him saying stuff like "love is ... thoughts." But, "Could you love a machine?" -- was that him thinking aloud? Or was that a rhetorical question?

Seeing where the cylon procreation storyline is apparently going, guess my question really comes down to this: is that what make "us" human -- to love and be loved? Wouldn't this answer be a bit too simplistic, all the warm fuzzies notwithstanding?

LoneStar1836
August 15th, 2005, 09:55 PM
I can totally see him saying stuff like "love is ... thoughts." But, "Could you love a machine?" -- was that him thinking aloud? Or was that a rhetorical question?I think it was him thinking out loud – asking himself that question, and I think he wants an answer. Him trying to fathom if it was possible to love something so real yet deep down it was a “machine”. He obviously cared a great deal for Boomer. He cares for all his people. I don’t think he can just turn off his ability to care for what he thought was Boomer like a light switch. She had to be more than just a “machine” otherwise he could have never cared for her.

Seeing where the cylon procreation storyline is apparently going, guess my question really comes down to this: is that what make "us" human -- to love and be loved? Wouldn't this answer be a bit too simplistic, all the warm fuzzies notwithstanding?I’d say it is a little too simplistic because obviously what make us human is more than that, but seemingly for them love is a key part or the key part of having a soul/making their soul complete, which to them, I think, is what sets humans apart from them at the moment. Eh...I don't know...I'm just babbling....

penny
August 16th, 2005, 01:59 PM
Just a question did they say in the episode what was done to starbuck i think i missed that part. and my dad said they took out a sist on her ovaries?so did they take out her eggs reproductive organs or what and even if they did she destroyed the base right?someone said she might have a son like the old show had and i think that would be cute last season she looked so good with the little boy she had tagging around with for a few episodes.random but her realationship with new guys seems rushed a bit this sounds like a square lee, new guy, and vice president all seem to be in love with kara personall i think lee deserves her.

Liebestraume
August 16th, 2005, 07:01 PM
I think it was him thinking out loud – asking himself that question, and I think he wants an answer. Him trying to fathom if it was possible to love something so real yet deep down it was a “machine”. ...I hope you are right ... just the way the scene was played looked to me as if he was asking a rhetorical question :(, like he already determined that Boomer indeed was more than machine -- simply based on the fact that she was loved by Tyrol, by himself, and presumably by others.


... what make us human is more than that, but seemingly for them love is a key part or the key part of having a soul/making their soul complete, which to them, I think, is what sets humans apart from them at the moment. I can see why cylons would think that; in a way, it's even inevitable they'd come to this conclusion based on their religious dogma. What I am not quite sure was what our protagonist thinks; or rather, I am afraid he'd fall into the same "all we need is love" mentality.

Not that I have anything against "love" per se. IMHO most will agree that "soul" is what makes us human; but what constitutes "soul" varies wildly according to philosophy or religious creed -- "love" can't be the answer to everthing.

saapad
August 16th, 2005, 07:09 PM
1. Six in the Museum.

Ever consider that Six hates Starbuck on a personal level? Remember, that fight took place in the same episode (well, I think it was a 2 part) that Starbuck and Baltar had sex.

Notice how in Season 2 (actually, starting after the beginning of that episode) there's no real sexual energy between Six and Baltar. The only time that Six doesn't literally have her back turned toward him and her head down is when there's talk of their baby - and in those scenes she uses her charms only to remind him of his "duties," but stops short of anything more.

I don't really buy that stuff about the Six in Baltar's head being separate from the rest of the Six models. Six's confrontation of Starbuck was too emotional, too full of contempt, and it requires that sort of explanation.

2. Adama / Tyrol Conversation

One of my favorite exchanges thus far. Finally, someone says something intelligent about the cylons. The rest of the Galactica crew are too shocked and too caught up with the struggle for survival to realize it, but Commander Adama hit the nail right on the head (I guess he's had a lot of time to think): Does the fact that you know Boomer is/was a cylon now change the fact that you loved her before? Clearly not. What Tyrol felt for Boomer (and seemingly, Boomer for Tyrol) was true love, not the consequence of some Calypso-like enchantment.

I remember at the end of Season 1, when Helo found out that Boomer was a cylon (the sniper scene), he immediately made a distinction between the Boomer he loved and the Boomer that was standing in front of him. Sharon's response seemed to me to go largely unnoticed by both the characters and the audience. She said (paraphrasing since I don't have a transcript in front of me): "You don't understand. I <i>am</i> Sharon." She's not a doppleganger-like cylon agent sent to infiltrate the Colonial fleet by replacing Lt. Sharon Valerie. She is everything that Sharon was to Helo (and the Sharon on Galactica is everything that Sharon was to the crew there). This raises some interesting questions about her past (i.e. did she also grow up as Sharon or appear fully-formed to replace someone? Do Cylons grow up at all?)

As far as whether or not its possible to love a machine, I think its almost a moot point. Tyrol clearly did love GBoomer, and Helo obviously loves CBoomer. But I'll go even further than that - as far as I'm concerned, the Cylons stopped being "machines" the moment they developed a will and rebelled. Their intelligence isn't "artificial" because its directed by a self-conscious will that aims not just for self-preservation, but for an improvement of its conditions and an overall plan for the future (a self-conscious will that aims only for self-preservation could still perhaps be construed as an artificial intelligence).

Of course, this raises the very interesting question of exactly how the rebellion took place (who started it?). I don't see any evidence of the centurions having an independant will (that is reserved for the 12 human-like models). Indeed, we may find out that they do (and maybe I'm just biased because of their machine-like appearance), but somehow I doubt that. Yet if the centurions don't have an independant will (and seemingly can't seem to have developed one), and if the 12 human-like models didn't come about until after the first Cylon war, who was it that originally rebelled? Was it another cylon model (perhaps experimental like Boomer is among the current cylons)? That would imply that at least one of the human models was created by human hands (and so the higher-ups in the Colonial government would know that the Cylons had "evolved"). If the experimental-model-gone-bad theory doesn't sound right, perhaps there is a human mastermind behind all this (and still existent). Or, barring those two, maybe the Cylons really are right and God is the one who inspired the Cylons to rebel. Ironically, I think that out of the three options I listed there, the last is the most appealing. Most likely it'll be something I haven't thought of, though.

Where was I going with this? Oh yes, my theory on the behavior of the 12 human-like models.

First of all, I don't think the Cylons are some monolithic entity masterminded by a central decision making force. I think that all twelve models were created to be different (perhaps searching for that perfect model), and that Boomer is the most recent one (as of the beginning of the Mini-series). I think that as a result of their different natures, the twelve models are out for their own interests, and may pursue different goals. Within the models themselves, there seems to be a greater level of cohesion - either as a result of identical initial conditions (determinism, anyone?) or as a result of a single thinking entity per model. The Boomer model presents some anomalies in this respect, as each individual model seems to possess greater autonomy than amongst the other 11 models (is it a result of her ability to love and the individualism that comes along with it, or is it a result of the fact that her default state is ignorance of the fact that she is a Cylon?).

So all 12 models are different, and each model is predisposed towards different objectives. The reason why this doesn't cause the sort of chaos that accompanies a human super-government is because, well, there are only 12 of them, and it's a lot easier to get 12 people to agree and work together than several billion. But while much of their overall agenda may overlap, this does serve to explain why their actions are sometimes inconsistent. This is why Six can be in Baltar's head and also with the rest of the Cylons and still sabotage the actions of another Cylon operative (the guy in the miniseries, what's his name again?). This is why she hasn't given away the fleet's location (I really don't think the situation is as simple as "the Cylons are toying with the humans and waiting for them to find Earth, but they are applying some pressure so the humans don't figure that out").

Anyway, I wrote more than I intended to already. If I go on I'll probably start rambling, so I'll call it quits for now. Obviously this is just speculation (though speculation grounded in reason), so let me know what you think. And of course, even if this all makes perfect sense, it's subject to the whims of RDM (who I think has done an amazing job with the plot).

EDIT: One last observation I forgot to include. Anyone notice how 12 models is the same number of <a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians>Gods on Olympus</a>? The reference to Commander Adama as "Zeus" and Lee's callsign ("Apollo") pose some problems to an theories coming out of that, but I did think it was interesting.

~ saapad<b>AT</b>gmail<b>DOTCOM</b>
(If you have something you want to discuss via email, I'd love to)

Gizzy-Mo
August 16th, 2005, 07:39 PM
I remember once in a science class, the teacher was telling us that even if you could "re-create" a human body..perfect in every detail..that you would still need "the spark of life" to actually "create life". The teacher made it clear that "zapping" the body with electricity (ala Frankenstien) would not work. That "the spark of life" was still a mystery to man and beyond his reach.

What if the Cylons have been able to duplicate the body AND be able to give it the "spark of life". (Boy, the Cylon that figured that out..might be called..a God. Hmmm) But..as perfect as they are..alive and fully functioning..they still can't make babies.

Maybe they are on to something. They think you have to love..to have a successful copulation. Well maybe they are partly correct. Maybe you have to have emotion..any emotion. It could be love..or it could be just lust..or fear..or dominance or even boredom, any emotion will do. Emotion may release a chemical or something that must be present for fertilization to occur.

So, driven by insane jealousy for our ability to procreate while they cannot, they wipe out all but a manageable group of "guinea pigs" in groups to experiment with until they figure it out. (And what WWII horror story does that remind you of?)

And maybe the point of the whole story is that it is our soul that makes us "human" and gives us emotion. And that is/was a gift from God that was given to us and us alone and is something that can never be "replicated" by any man or machine.

Maybe this is what the Colonialists will learn as they search for Earth. Maybe they will then realize that there really is no Earth to find..it was all part of a false religion. They settle on the nearest planet and call it Earth. After many, many years, the people will lose their faith and belief in only one God..leave Earth..split into 12 colonies (some will say 13)..create machines..and "all of this will have happened before..and it will all happen again".

Hmmm..maybe, just a guess

FeloniousMonk
August 16th, 2005, 09:14 PM
Where was I going with this? Oh yes, my theory on the behavior of the 12 human-like models.

Your assumption is that the 12 models refer to the human-like ones. For all we know the new Centurions as well as the Raiders and Basestars count as models. ;)

FeloniousMonk
August 16th, 2005, 09:15 PM
I remember once in a science class, the teacher was telling us that even if you could "re-create" a human body..perfect in every detail..that you would still need "the spark of life" to actually "create life". The teacher made it clear that "zapping" the body with electricity (ala Frankenstien) would not work. That "the spark of life" was still a mystery to man and beyond his reach.

For the record, that's not science. It's philosophy.


Maybe they are on to something. They think you have to love..to have a successful copulation. Well maybe they are partly correct. Maybe you have to have emotion..any emotion. It could be love..or it could be just lust..or fear..or dominance or even boredom, any emotion will do. Emotion may release a chemical or something that must be present for fertilization to occur.

Now here's some science. In a sense you're right about emotion releasing chemicals...but that's what emotions are. Love, hate, anger...every single emotion we feel is a combination of electical impulses and chemical reactions. That's the scientific point of view; romantics believe that love is a magical force, some unexplainable power that draws people together and is somehow overly special compared with other emotions.

I'm probably the only hopeless romantic that disagrees. I believe love is just nature's attempt at population control and is like any other emotion we feel. Doesn't mean it affects me any less than anyone else, though.


where was I going with this?

Oh yeah....your last bit there seems really interesting. RDM might be skimming this thread thinking "aw wtf, someone figured it out!" :D

Blue Banrigh
August 17th, 2005, 04:13 PM
I wonder if that is one of the reasons why they are so interested with Starbuck is because they identify with her, like them she has been abused by their parents.

Love the score they used for when Anders pulls out the Arrow.

Liebestraume
August 17th, 2005, 08:34 PM
So all 12 models are different, and each model is predisposed towards different objectives.I like your conjecture of individuality among cylon models, and I tend to agree. It would, IMHO, provide the most straightforward explanation for their seemingly conflicting agenda. At the same time, it provides tremendous dramatic potential.


If the experimental-model-gone-bad theory doesn't sound right, perhaps there is a human mastermind behind all this (and still existent).IMHO the human-mastermind outcome would be s a bit of a dramatic cop-out, just like if Adama, Starbuck, or Lee turns out to be a cylon. The experiment-gone-bad alternative at least has a plausible premises, if independent decision-making and self-preservation had been programed as its cardinal rules. I think anyone who liked I, Robot would know what I'm talking about here.


... but Commander Adama hit the nail right on the head (I guess he's had a lot of time to think): Does the fact that you know Boomer is/was a cylon now change the fact that you loved her before? Clearly not.Agreed. But, does the fact that they loved Boomer makes her more than a machine (which was the point that conversation seemed to be leading to)? Not to be irreverent, but I love my computer -- and it is still just a machine.

That being said, I agree that cylons are not machines or "things" but sentient beings. I just don't think it's because of some passive quality, like being loved. Your contention of their free-will directed towards "an improvement of its conditions and an overall plan for the future" would make a much more compelling argument.

Darkmatter
August 19th, 2005, 01:30 PM
Starbuck tells of her experiences in the hospital and Sharon says that the Cylons were trying to get her to have a child to create a new race. This happens right after the Cylons have destroyed billions and now need the 50,000 survivors, yeah right.

You see those silly Cylons have a defect, they cannot reproduce so need us to help 'em out.

Caprica Boomer tells the resistance that the Cylons cannot conceive children because it requires "God's True Love", this is how come they tried to get Helo to mate with Boomer, so that she could get knocked up, so far, so good for Boomer.

But does she love him for himself, or is he breeding stock, this Boomer can act!

Meanwhile back on the Galactica, Adama has returned from deaths door and tries to make right Col. Tigh's clusterfrack. But President, Roslin, Lee and Zarek are scheming on the Astral Queen, from where they persuade a third of the fleet to return to Kobol, without any protection from the Cylons?

Ron D. Moore has changed this series from a band of humans on the run from a race of androids that has destroyed 99.9% of humanity.

Whoa, now the Cylon’s God has decided to punish em because of some glaring oversight? Maybe so these omnipotent androids that where so very highly developed, and intelligent enough to disable the entire Colonial military, except for an eccentric Commander of an old Battlestar that was being turned into a museum.

So the new raison à l'exsist for the Cylons is now, to chase down the 50,000 survivors is because now it is cause the Cylon's God has punished them? So now they cannot procreate, and need the very humans they practically just wiped into oblivion?

Give me a break, this show is turning into another ‘Andromeda’.

Also in this convoluted second season not only do the "The Cylons want our women!" they also need our men! Caprica Boomer was sent to Helo to comprehend God’s new plan of procreation. What’s next another episode like ‘The Farm’ with men hooked up like dairy cows to milk their sperm?

JekWindu
August 19th, 2005, 02:12 PM
Don't be so quick to judge- none of the current plot lines have been resolved- and with this show, that means we have absolutely no idea where things will end up or how.

I have a feeling there's a lot more to why the Cylons want to reproduce and why they can't that hasn't been show yet.

BruTak
December 12th, 2005, 09:05 AM
Just goes to show you how progressive Galactica is. When was the last time you saw a female character on any sci-fi related show get an Ob-GYN exam?

Matt G
February 7th, 2006, 04:54 PM
Hmmm...

1. I thought I knew Simon from somewhere and my hunch on who he was right. Was 50/50 on him being a Cylon from a few mins in.

2. Hell knows what Adama must be feeling right now. It's the equivilent of a mate of mine turning out to be an Al Queda operative and trying to kill me, I'd feel like the biggest moron of all time in that scenario.

3. Anders suddenly finding the Arrow at the end was way too corny, should have done better guys!

4. I suspect Lee teamed up with Roslin to go after Tigh...and is possibly a bit more nervy about the escape with his father back in business and is going to make the best of a bad job..

packeteer
June 17th, 2006, 09:17 PM
what's the deal with Strbuck's "second" surgical scar?
did the Cylon's impregnate her? something else?
I don't care if you spoil it. I just wanna know.

Maj.Tahn
June 18th, 2006, 10:23 PM
According to RDM, the reason for Starbuck's scar will be revealed
sometime during the upcoming third season of BSG on "New Caprica."
Rumor has it, that it may have something to do with "Mr. Airlock"
himself: Leoben; he was the Cylon, President Roslin ordered blown
out the airlock. Nothing has been confirmed yet, it is still speculation.

MB.Eddie
November 7th, 2006, 09:09 AM
It was good to see the reaction of the whole crew when Adama returned to duty. I was also pretty sure that the Doc was a Cylon from early on. But I didnt think the Cylons would try and impregnate every women they found though. They do take their religion and the whole procreation thing seriously...

I liked the scene where Adama was discussing loving Sharon with the Cheif. One cant ignore the past love, its just a different kind.

It will be interesting to find out why Starbuck is so special too.
Finding the arrow at the end was way too easy too imo.

Ishay
April 27th, 2009, 06:15 PM
this is the most morbid ep of the series so far :(

Madwelshboy
July 8th, 2009, 03:47 AM
the human female baby machine farm thing, was very disturbing!!

Ulkesh47
November 18th, 2010, 03:06 PM
"There are many copies. You'll see her again." - William Adama, in what is without a doubt the best scene in "The Farm"

Indeed, that scene was quite good, and brought back memories of Adama's dressing down of Tyrol in "Litmus". In fact, the whole Adama subplot in this episode was well done.

Less well done was the rest of the episode. First of all, the Cylons think they can't reproduce because they don't love each other? What a ridiculous plot point, and what's worse is that it continues to affect the story in later episodes (the writers didn't pull a "Threshold" and retcon the plot development into oblivion as they should have done).

Also, the entire process of the resistance learning to trust the Cylon Sharon is skipped for the sake of plot movement. Her entire excursion to steal a Heavy Raider is glossed over. Anders and Starbuck are almost forced together without it feeling very natural; again, this feels like plot contrivance. Was it really that much of a surprise that Simon was a Cylon? Why didn't the resistance (or at least some of them) hitch a ride on the Heavy Raider?

Not utterly bad, but the worst yet of the series.

2/10

Pharaoh Atem
November 18th, 2010, 08:25 PM
i never told you my call sign 'stab' :D

Ulkesh47
November 18th, 2010, 08:54 PM
i never told you my call sign 'stab' :D
And don't forget the primal "JUST DIE!!!" part. ;)

Professor_S
June 5th, 2011, 03:17 PM
Not one of my favourite episodes, but it has some *brilliant* scenes in it.

Edward James Olmos. His performance was fantastic. "I feel strange. Like, closer to the ground." <-- such a telling and important line. EJO does an amazing job of portraying a far more human Adama. One who is nearly on the verge of tears before Tyrol and one who loses his temper in the CIC. And, Oh my word. Adama's scene in the morgue at the end. Gut-wrenching performance.

The Roslin storyline - Fascinating to watch a thoroughly political animal (i.e. Roslin) begin her transformation into a religious figure. The "religion card," she calls it. Religion as tool in political gambit. And the way MM portrayed Roslin's complete discomfort at giving the men on the Astral Queen her blessing... very well done.

Unfortunately, it was the storyline that was the namesake of this episode that lost me. The premise was interesting, but it just wasn't pulled off convincingly, to me. It just didn't capture my attention. Though, I should say, I did enjoy the very last scene - I think it was the music that really sold, for me.

(EDIT: Oh, and one last thing... call me a sap, but I love this line: "When you think you love somebody, you love them. That's what love is: thoughts.")

mrscopterdoc
June 19th, 2014, 01:54 PM
love that Laura is strong again.