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GateWorld
July 26th, 2005, 06:47 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/2042.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px solid black" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888">GALACTICA SEASON TWO</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">RESISTANCE</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 204</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
Apollo orchestrates an escape for Roslin and her supporters, while Tigh's suspicions about Cylon operatives fall on Chief Tyrol. Kara and Helo fall in with a group of humans who have survived on Caprica and started a resistance movement.

<FONT SIZE=1><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Lt. Elliot
August 5th, 2005, 08:00 PM
Sorry Gateworld! But I cannot wait for it to get unlocked. My mind is reeling!

*Tigh is on my last nerve - Tyrol is no Cylon and Tigh should be one for what he is doing!
*Roslin is still doing a great job as President, with the Lt. on her escape and all that - and so civil towards Zarek (newfound love for him!) The enemy of my enemy is my friend (total Stargate there!)
*ADAMA IS BACK! YAY!
*Dee and her little convos with Apollo were cute - and Gaeta at the end denying the off-log calls and stuff! Perfect!
*Helo and Starbuck and the C-Bucs was cool! So glad we have 53 known surviors on Caprica - I was hoping for a Starbuck/Anders kiss, but none!
*Okay, so when Roslin said "Something ugly is coming, I can feel it", I was half-expecting Ellen Tigh to walk through the doors. She is so pathetic and making excuses and trying to get her incomptent, drunk-ass husband back to power...she is on my last nerve and I'm sick of her! AND I DID NOT WANT TO SEE TWO WRINKLY OLD BABOONS ALMOST GO AT IT!
*Baltar surpised me! Didn't know he had it in him to almost kill Chief. Nonetheless, 8 Cylons...scary!

The Farm looks good, but this ranks up as one of my favorite episodes. I was yelling at Ellen Tigh and Colonel Tigh and everything!!

microzstar
August 5th, 2005, 08:11 PM
AND I DID NOT WANT TO SEE TWO WRINKLY OLD BABOONS ALMOST GO AT IT!
LOL Lt. Elliot! That shocked me quite significantly as well.

Oh wow... this episode was... absolutely excellent. EXCELLENT. Probably my favoritest this season. The stuff on Kobol... worth waiting for! Kara and Helo, yay! They didn't show as much as I thought they would of Caprica, but maybe next time...? I'm hopeful.

I was so stunned about the ending... BOOOOOMER! *sad* I know there's another copy of her, but they're two completely different people, and before there was one Sharon for Helo, and one Sharon for Tyrol, but now Tyrol doesn't have a Sharon and... that's sad! :( *cries* Poor Tyrol! I want to hug him.

I think I'm going to stay up for the second showing so I can watch this episode again. *cackles* Yay for that!

Jonisa
August 5th, 2005, 08:38 PM
Wow. That was...just wow. Sooooo good.

Way too much to take in on one viewing. Baltar finding out how many Cylons are on the fleet. Apollo's decision to side with Roslin *again*. Billy's decision to not stay with her! Tigh screwing up even more than I thought possible. Ooky Ellen and Tigh groping. Please no more of that. :eek: Starbuck and studly Caprica guy. Gaeta is looking more and more like a Cylon, to me anyway. (I hope I'm wrong, I don't want him to be one.) Adama woke up...and asked for Lee! And poor Boomer/Chief. :(

This episode is a perfect example of why I'm a spoilerphobe. :p

I'll have to write more when I'm less tired and more coherent.

This show rocks! :D

Vorlon-1
August 5th, 2005, 09:06 PM
Damn this fracken show for once again leaving me wanting more. :mad: So many things going on I'm really glad they got back on Caprica, Starbuck has become my favorite character ;)

shinyredpants
August 5th, 2005, 10:18 PM
man i think this takes top on best ep so far imo

CKO
August 5th, 2005, 10:30 PM
damn cliffy (is it friday yet)

so much info to take in..

8 cylons in the fleet...

love the stuff on Caprica... gettin' more and more interstin'

glad the old man is back :)

i see a love triangle fromin' lee/kara/anders.

i could go without tigh and his uh.. umm.. little frakkin' backstabbin wife, makin' out... :eek: frakkin freaky

this whole season is turnin' out to be kickin' some major butt.

im havin more and more respect for Cally, i didnt see that comin' shootin boomer like that..

poor tyrol.. he's not a frakkin' cylon. tigh has to come down from his alcohol induced idiotcy and look at what the hell he's doin.

(uh yea still no repect for him... actually he's been a bigger idiot since his wife came back... he's back in the bottle and tryin' to keep it underwraps.. news flash, loose the wife, she's a bad infuence.)

Carbito
August 6th, 2005, 12:46 AM
This so is getting really good, its turing into one of my all time favorite shows. This episode was great as awlways, I'm so glad now that Commander Adama is back - can't wait for next week.

Smashing Young Man
August 6th, 2005, 08:16 AM
I absolutely loved the episode on a dramatic level, but...

...in reality, these people wouldn't last two minutes under the circumstances. Only 50,000 people left, running aimlessly through space, under constant threat of attack by a vastly superior force and their only defense is a hopelessly dysfunctional military. Of the most paramount importance to any military, even during peacetime nevermind the situation these people find themselves in, is discipline, discipline, discipline and the unquestioning obeying of orders. It seems everyone on Galactica, from the lowest private to the officers, will disobey an order at the drop of a hat on personal principle.

Then you also have the civilians who are rather foolishly intent on maintaining a normal life resembling what they had prior to the Cylon Armageddon. It seems to me that under such extreme circumstances, every civilian had best show a military-like discipline if they have any wish to survive. All the political machinations are insane. You can worry about democracy and setting up a government once the race's survival is assured. Tigh's declaration of martial law is something that should have happened from the beginning.

Don't get me wrong, I love the series and I loved this episode. But what I outlined above does sort of get on my nerves, and it was more pronounced in this episode. Of course, this is fiction and the writers can sidestep what, in reality, would be suicidal behaviour on the part of the survivors.

LoneStar1836
August 6th, 2005, 08:58 AM
Oh man that episode was intense. And it kicked you know what……

I had spoiled myself about the Caprica situation so I knew they were going to find survivors, and the NBC promo commercial had spoiled me about Tigh treating Tryol like a Cylon, but the rest was just WOW! I didn’t see it coming and am so glad I didn’t.

Lee, what in the bleep have you gone and done! I totally disagree with what he did and what the rest of them did to help the President escape. They have made the situation even worse. Adama was eventually going to wake up and take back command. Now I don’t think he would have immediately let her resume her position of power, but I think he could have been more diplomatic about the situation and possibly withdrawn marshal law and let the Quarum with Baltar serving as interim president take back control of civilian affairs. As much as Baltar being Pres scares me, it’s better than what is about to happen. I really have to admire Billy for growing a pair and telling Roslin what she was doing was wrong and that he couldn’t be a party to it. Go Billy! Then after seeing who Lee was relying on to hide them………..Go Billy! Go! Tom Zarek. That is who we fall back on in this desperate time? The man who possibly orchestrated some of the crap that is going down. I still think he and Ellen have some kind of little pact going on. I think he whispers things in Ellen’s ear and she whispers them in Tigh’s. Marshal law has almost turned out to be the best thing for Zarek because the President has been brought down leaving open the possibility for him to ascend to power once things calm down. I think he is secretly glad marshal law was declared, and think he had a hand in it. Anyway back to Billy. I think him being all puppy dog for Dee could have factored into his decision to stay, but I truly believe that what he said is a possibility and that he believes it.

And then there is Dee “betraying” the Old Man by helping Apollo. Yikes. I thought she worshiped at Adama’s feet. And then dragging poor Gaeta into the fray.

I admire Lee for his principles, but then I also hate traitors wearing a military uniform. And jeez there where a lot of people wearing the uniform willing to betray Adama.

Ugh. I hate how this show is almost forcing me to take sides. I want to support both sides. I want my democracy, but right now my loyalties lie with the military, and Lee has really betrayed the military with this move. I just can’t support that. Hehe. Jamie Bamber really has beautiful hands though. When he put his hand on Adama’s pillow, I was like oh damn get that woman away from Adama thinking it was Ellen. I kid you not. I really said that. :P

OMG! When Baltar killed the Chief, I was like WTF. Noooo. Not the Chief! Because I honestly wouldn’t put it past tptb to kill him. Great scene but then it really didn’t answer any questions cause we already knew that there were 8 other faceless models out there. So that raises the question. Was Boomer just referring to there being 8 other models out there with maybe a couple of copies hiding in reserve or are there just purely 8 other Cylons out amongst the fleet. No more, no less. Or did she just give him a number to save the Chief. She said 8 right after Baltar said 9 as he was counting down. Dang Baltar is evil.

And Nooooo! They killed Galactica Boomer. :( I think she was my favorite of the two Boomers because she was so conflicted. Here the show goes and makes me want to cry for something that just shot my favorite character and whose race just annihilated the human race. Jeez these people are good. Nice visual with the dripping blood and its symbolic meanings.

Could Cally be a Cylon since she assassinated the assassin?

Hmmm……..some Starbuck/Pyramid player dude ship going on there, eh. He’s a dead man walking.

I like the character of Tigh, but then I just want to slap the idiot and say wake up you jerk, she’s manipulating you. Well, I guess Tigh does still have two brain cells rubbing together amidst all that drinking (and not even bothering to hide it this week), though I imagine he’s know all along that’s how Ellen plays the game. What does he see in her? It’s almost like battered wife syndrome, but only in reverse. And please no more Ellen/Tigh foreplay. :S

But when Adama walked into the room and said those words, I had to take pity on Tigh because he was put in a difficult position, and it’s always easier for us armchair quarterbacks to criticize those who are put in positions where they have to make critical decisions. Great words by Adama. Damn. I love his character.

Oh and YES! Adama’s back! The show has been totally great without him, so it can only get better with him.

Damn. Best episode of the season so far I think. Gah. It’s almost too hard to pick a favorite episode in this series. Though it could have done without the little Starbuck/hunky model boy pick-up Pyramid game. :P

Vorlon-1
August 6th, 2005, 09:26 AM
Oh man that episode was intense. And it kicked you know what……


Oh and YES! Adama’s back! The show has been totally great without him, so it can only get better with him.



I never really considered the show being "without him". More of the show having him being in an incapacitated state. If that makes any sence :S . But your right stuffs gonna hit the fan and I'm afraid that the split mid season is gonna be too much for me too handle :eek:

The damn show is Too good this early in the series. Can they honestly keep this pace up. First episode after the mini was 33, when they were jumping evey 33 minutes and had no rest......I feel like the damn series is still on that pace for the viewers :D

Lt. Elliot
August 6th, 2005, 09:44 AM
And then there is Dee “betraying” the Old Man by helping Apollo. Yikes. I thought she worshiped at Adama’s feet. And then dragging poor Gaeta into the fray.

Dee has just been doing what she needs to do. She wasn't so much betraying the Old Man as she was trying to save the fleet because of Tigh. She said it herself to Apollo that he's back on the bottle and its worse than ever. What would you do in this case? Try to get the President (who isn't a drunken fool) safe and back into some power until the Old Man resumes command or let Tigh (a drunken fool) continue to control the fleet and lead them into immenent death!


Could Cally be a Cylon since she assassinated the assassin? I don't think she's a Cylon because she did that. I think Cally loved the Chief as much as Galactica Boomer did, and since everyone was saying it was Galactica Boomer's fault Chief was in the brig, she wanted revenge!


I like the character of Tigh, but then I just want to slap the idiot and say wake up you jerk, she’s manipulating you. Well, I guess Tigh does still have two brain cells rubbing together amidst all that drinking (and not even bothering to hide it this week), though I imagine he’s know all along that’s how Ellen plays the game. What does he see in her? It’s almost like battered wife syndrome, but only in reverse. And please no more Ellen/Tigh foreplay. I agree Tigh needs a good slapping and someone needs to take that flask away. If you noticed, he can't be away from it for half a second! Yeah, that foreplay was completely gross and something TPTB needs to consider in the rest of the episode - no one wants to see two old, wrinkly people go at it! It's gross! Especially if one is an incompetent drunk and the other is a power-mongoring Cylon-wannabe!


Lee, what in the bleep have you gone and done! I totally disagree with what he did and what the rest of them did to help the President escape. They have made the situation even worse. Adama was eventually going to wake up and take back command. Now I don’t think he would have immediately let her resume her position of power, but I think he could have been more diplomatic about the situation and possibly withdrawn marshal law and let the Quarum with Baltar serving as interim president take back control of civilian affairs. Well, I doubt Adama will ever just allow Roslin back to power, but then again, Home is all about Lee joining Roslin and Zarek in a Separatist Fleet and leaving Adama and the main fleet. I commend Lee on knowing where his loyalties need to be, because a military government spells disaster for the whole fleet, where as a civilian government did and does mean some safety and peace within the fleet.

LoneStar1836
August 6th, 2005, 09:50 AM
I never really considered the show being "without him". More of the show having him being in an incapacitated state. If that makes any sence . But your right stuffs gonna hit the fan and I'm afraid that the split mid season is gonna be too much for me too handle :eek:
That makes sense cause that was what I was implying, I just didn’t express that very well. :) He’s been there all along and his presence is felt in all of these episodes, he just wasn’t out there with that commanding voice of his.

I have a hard enough time putting together a coherent sentence when I’m not excited about something. With my gushing over this show, there is no telling what babbling will make its way into a post. :D

That mid season break is going to be a killer……..


The damn show is Too good this early in the series. Can they honestly keep this pace up. First episode after the mini was 33, when they were jumping evey 33 minutes and had no rest......I feel like the damn series is still on that pace for the viewers :DI hear you. In the back of my mind, I’m always wondering when the magic will run out cause I don’t see how they can keep up this pace of producing episodes that have yet to disappoint me.

keshou
August 6th, 2005, 11:32 AM
You know I have a hard time even forming coherent thoughts about this show. I keep thinking about things long after it's off. SG-1 and Atlantis are easy. I either like them or not - good popcorny fun. But they don't stay with me like BSG does.

I LOVED "Resistance".

There were all kinds of interesting things going on with ALL the characters. What other show pulls that off? Dee and Gaeta. I was surprised Gaeta covered. Really surprised. Maybe he IS a Cylon.

Chief - they locked up Chief!? :( I mean I know the reason but just so unfair. I didn't expect Baltar to try killing Tyrol to make CylonBoomer talk but kind of a stupid idea really. Boomer could have made up anything and he would be none the wiser. But if it's really 8 Cylons - I suspect that's the total number in the fleet. Wonder if that included the guy they spaced. Now I've forgotten his name. Sheesh - need the S1 DVD's to come out.

That was actually sad at the end when CylonBoomer died. I mean I know Boomer is a Cylon but she loved Tyrol. Poor Tyrol. :( I figured we'd lose one of the Boomers and she seemed the most likely.

And what's up with Cally? I was wondering about her being a Cylon too. Maybe she was just trying to keep them from experimenting on CylonBoomer. If not - her behavior on behalf of the Chief seemed a little out of character. But guess after all the stress on the planet she was entitled to go off the deep end.

So much going on with the political maneuverings. I'm sorry - in a way - to see Apollo going with Roslin. The estrangement from his father is going to get much worse before it gets better I think. Still, he's acting on on his principles and it's hard to say he's really wrong at this point - what with Tigh going off every other minute. I just think his father is going to need his help and support to fix this mess and he's not going to be there. Roslin and Zarak are going to be odd bedfellows. And Billy stayed behind - that was another surprise.

I want to strangle Tigh. *****slap him or something. What a fool. :( But every decision he made was a tough one. The civilian casualties were very predictable - why was he surprised?

I've never been so glad to see Adama walk thru the door. :p :D I don't know how well he would have handled things - and it was a thoughtful speech he gave Tigh about the pressures of the job - but at least he's sober and doesn't have Ellen whispering in his ear. ;)

Oh - I'm forgetting all the resistance stuff. Which was great but more predictable.

I'm sure if I ever land on a planet devastated by nuclear events the leader of the resistance isn't going to look like that guy. :D He'll be some straggle-tooth fellow. Quite a little game going on at the end - and not just on the court.

Can't wait until next week. I love this show.

LoneStar1836
August 6th, 2005, 11:34 AM
Dee has just been doing what she needs to do. She wasn't so much betraying the Old Man as she was trying to save the fleet because of Tigh. She said it herself to Apollo that he's back on the bottle and its worse than ever. What would you do in this case? Try to get the President (who isn't a drunken fool) safe and back into some power until the Old Man resumes command or let Tigh (a drunken fool) continue to control the fleet and lead them into immenent death!I think they could have weighed other options. Number one being getting Tigh out of power. Have the man declared unfit for duty and relieve him. It was very evident he was hitting the bottle. That should be justification enough that his mental capacities were impaired and thus the fleet was at risk. All they needed to do was work on convincing Captain Kelly to force him to step down by ordering the Marines take him into custody. If several Marines were willing to help Roslin escape, then they shouldn’t have too many qualms about detaining Tigh. Imo, that should have been their first plan of action.


Well, I doubt Adama will ever just allow Roslin back to power, but then again, Home is all about Lee joining Roslin and Zarek in a Separatist Fleet and leaving Adama and the main fleet.Oh, I agree that Adama will not just let Roslin back into power. If she does somehow manage to regain her position, it will not be because he just agreed to let her have it. There will be some major wrangling and arm twisting involved. I honestly don’t see how he could ever consent to let her back into power, much less respect her authority, if she even regains her position as president of the Colonies anyway.

This is going to be interesting. :D
I commend Lee on knowing where his loyalties need to be, because a military government spells disaster for the whole fleet, where as a civilian government did and does mean some safety and peace within the fleet.Got to disagree there cause I see the military in this dire situation as the only hope for the fleet’s survival. They are the only thing that stands between them and the Cylons. So while a military government is not my first choice, it is practically the only option, imo. If I were on one of those civilian ships, I would want the military on my side. Having the “democracy” they had in place, taken down in one fell swoop would bother me, but not nearly as much as having zero military protection. Spoilery talk about next week based on the previews shown It looks to me as though Roslin is asking ships of the fleet to take sides. They can either stay under the protection of Galactica and her guns and Vipers, etc. or they can jump away with her to Kobol in the hopes of fulfilling some prophecy in an attempt to find Earth. Now I agree that hope is the only thing these people have to cling to and faith and religion provide people with hope, so hey why not follow Roslin. She might be the best hope of finding some shelter from the Cylons where the people can pick up the pieces of what is left of their civilization. But then again Adama claimed, though falsely, that he knew where Earth was in order to give people hope. Unless Roslin comes out and claims that Adama admitted to her that he lied, then why shouldn’t people continue to believe him, even though I suspect that a number people probably do doubt the credibility of his claim. Anyway, if I were on one of those civilian ships, I’d vote to stay with Galactica where I was at least assured a better level of protection than just going it alone and hoping that Roslin knew what she was doing.

Principles are a great thing to have, and like I said I admire Lee for having them and standing up for them and I even agree with them in our real life setting, but the people on BSG live in a very different reality. If General John Abizaid or General George Casey over threw President Bush today, I’d want to hang them from the highest tree, and I respect both of those generals, but I’d consider that action intolerable in our reality, especially since I support the President. But if I’m going to have to chose between supporting the principle of democracy or living through the next day, then I think I’m going to support which ever government provides me with the most actual, physical security and not the one that is more compatible with my ideals and principles, which is why I’d support the military government in BSG and can't support what Lee did, and definintely can't support what it seems like they are about to do.

The military government provides protection against the terrorists (the Cylons). The democratic one does not unless it has access to a military. You don’t negotiate with terrorists, which is the only option that the civilian government would have if the military ceased to exist. That is if the terrorists didn’t blow them up before they ever made it to the negotiating table.

Nothlit
August 6th, 2005, 11:52 AM
I have to agree with everyone else...what an amazing episode. I keep myself spoiler-free because I love being able to sit back after watching the show and just go..."wow!" I have to admit I was a little surprised to see Apollo still so willing to go along with Roslin, and Billy deciding to stay behind was completely unexpected. I hope he won't just disappear from the show. As a couple of other people have mentioned, the ease with which virtually every crew member on board the Galactica sides with Roslin seems a bit unsettling from a military perspective. I'm hoping things straighten back up now that Adama is back in charge.

Speaking of which... I had absolutely no idea Adama was going to wake up in this episode. I was definitely expecting his coma to go on a little bit longer, at least one more episode, so it was so wonderful to hear his voice coming from the doorway. The look on Tigh's face ("Did I just hear what I thought I heard?!") was exactly the look that I had on my face! Can't wait for next week!

Anubis345
August 6th, 2005, 02:43 PM
This was an awsome episode i want to see more like it i can't wait till next friday.

larocque6689
August 6th, 2005, 06:28 PM
Here's excerpts from this week's podcast for "Resistance".

This story was always conceived - we kept calling it the Kent State episode, where Tigh's repressive leadership would essentially result in the deaths of civilians. There would be an explosion of outrage in the fleet. This would prompt the prison break of Laura Roslin, and the start of a counter-coup, or counter-revolutionary movement within the fleet, and at the end of the episode would culminate in the return of Commander Adama to the Galactica. And that was always the concept of the show.
--
Here's the guy that was in love with Boomer. Here's the guy who protected Boomer. Here's the guy that everybody on the ship knew was involved with Boomer. So wouldn't he be under some kind of suspicion?
--
This plotline about Cally ultimately being Jack Ruby, I believe was suggested by our co-executive producer Toni Graphia, who wrote this episode. Toni's idea, in one of her drafts, as we started talking about Sharon, and what would happen to Sharon, somewhere along the line came this idea of a shocking end to Boomer, that Boomer would just get shot and killed. And it was a great instinct... What we wanted to play was a little bit close to the reality of some of these events, as close to reality as we could get, in that there would be tremendous amounts of anger and conflicted emotions about having her on the ship at all. From this point forward, even though Cally's not talking about Sharon, it's essentially that there's that Cylon woman in there, representative of all the problems that we have gone through on Galactica. As a perseon and a representative of her race, everything these people have gone through can be tracked back to her. So wouldn't there be tremendous amounts of ill will toward her?
--
This scene serves a couple of purposes, some things we're going to develop later in the season are beginning her with this relationship between Dualla and Lee. We also liked the idea that Dualla had a special relationship to all the pilots, because she was literally the voice on the phone. She was the voice that called them home, and the voice that told them it was OK, or the voice that told them where danger was, and that she had this almost informal relationship with all the pilots on the ship, and this little scene is a nod in that direction, where they've established this routine each day of her happening to fall in with him as we walks back toward the brig. The guards deal with it, they like her, nothing untoward ever happens. But it is also a subtext that maybe there's something else here, and this little look here at the end from Kandyse.
--
There has to be a real marriage here. There has to be some back and forth psychologically of what she provides to him, in the way of some kind of comfort. And yet at the same time, that she's "comforting him", there's also a bit of the twist of the knife, and there's also a bit of manipulation. Some of it conscious on her part, some of it unconscious. I think there's a part of Ellen that doesn't really understand what it is she does. I don't think she consciously is trying to get him to do specific things, so much as she does react to the moment, and reacts to weakness in a very predatory way. She sees weakness in her husband, and it makes her almost go on the attack, almost like a pack mentality kind of thing.
--
There was also this idea that Toni and I discussed. We were talking about, who are these resistance guys, where do they come from? Are they just going to be a bunch of other army guys, because that's not that interesting. Are they survivalists? That's almost interesting. Then somewhere in our conversation, one of us popped out with, maybe they're basketball players or something. And we both just started laughing. And I thought, that's actually kind of great. I kind of liked the absurd quality of that, that these guys would be a pyramid team. And then there was something that started to make sense. Like, oh, it's a pyramid team, and they're out doing high altitude training, they're in the mountains, that's why they've survived. It means they're not like crackerjack army special forces guys, which makes them interesting as well. And pyramid being the game that [is part of] Kara's backstory -- she wanted to be a pyramid player before she became a fighter pilot. It provided a certain connectivity to her story. And it was also great to opportunity play the attitude involved, and see the game. We decided to go for it. It's just one of those odd, absurd moments, that in the aftermath of a nuclear holocaust, that you might happen across the L.A. Lakers or something.
--
This little running thing with Corporal Venner, which comes to head here of course, when he ultimately aids in the escape of Laura Roslin. We talked for quite a while about who Venner was, and Venner sort of being representative of a more spiritual type of person in the fleet. He comes from Geminon. We've established that Gemininon is more "fundamentalist" planet in our mythos, and he would have a special connection to Laura, and that religious connection was going to override his sense of duty to the command. But you're seeing the whole command starting to fracture along different lines anyway under the leadership of Tigh. And I think the episode in some ways underlines how fragile this situation is. What's important to remember is that there is no higher power for these people to deal with. There's no fleet back there, there's no headquarters to deal with, there's no judicial system, there's no governmental structure at all. There's no replacements coming for any of these guys, there out by themselves. So essentially, right or wrong, anything that happens, they're going to wake up the same people tomorrow and nobody's going to change any of that.
--
At a much later date, I started going, this really isn't Kent State, it's a misleading type for what this episode is about, and what happens here. A more accurate description of this sequence is the Boston Massacre, in that a group of soldiers pinned in a situation that they're unprepared for, and a tragedy happens. In the Boston Massacre, a group of British redcoats, before the outbreak of the Revolutionary war, were backed up against a building in Boston with a mob, and the mob grew ugly and started throwing things. The situation got out of control, and somebody in one of these situations, like in that situation aboard the Gideon, squeezes off a shot. And it's really kind of key to the idea that you'll note we didn't show you who squeezed off the shot, where the first shot came from. Was it one of the civilians? Was it a Marine? How did that Marine fire off the shot? It doesn't matter, but the mistake is made. One shot goes off, and then the other Marines, in this situation they were completely unprepared for, fire back on instinct and people are killed. That's not Kent State. Kent State is a very different political situation, a very different setup. It carries with it a great, heavy political connotation. This is truly a little bit more the Boston Massacre, which then became a propaganda thing. The Colonists used it as a weapon ("There was a massacre, they fired indiscriminately into this crowd"), but the truth is actually more complex.
--
This little beat, I love it because it's so oddly twisted. What is going on with these two? What kind of relationship do they have? There's some vaguely violent sexual thing that happens between Tigh and his wife. You get the feeling this ain't the first time, and there's tragedy in the air, and then there's anger and then there's sex. It's interesting sometimes how those dots are connected.
--
He comes over, and he seems to be taking blood tests from Tyrol, Tyrol collapses, and suddenly "He's dying, Sharon. He has moments to live, and I want to know XYZ." Baltar has suddenly gone much darker, and it's all laid down, the pieces are there. Cally getting in his face, Tigh getting in his face, and the pressures that he's under, and the constant harping from Six. And finally this man starts to turn. And from this point forward in this season, he will slowly but surely start turning in a different direction. It doesn't mean he's become and out and out villain or bad guy, but certainly he's started to take a more aggressive, less kid-glove approach with everybody, and he's starting to advance his own agenda very strongly.
--
I'll be trying to get back do "Fragged" at some point. I think "Fragged" is one of my favorite shows of the whole season, I'd love to do commentary on that. I've been playing around with doing podcasts, things for you guys on other topics. There's a podcast report in my car on the way to work, I've been trying to record writer's meetings with varying degrees of success. Because of the audio quality, you may or may not be able to hear. I'm going to also attempt to get back to my blog, which is still neglected, and which "tortures me", because I feel I've made a promise to keep that up, and I just haven't been able to, as much as I would really like to.

Vorlon-1
August 6th, 2005, 08:40 PM
That makes sense cause that was what I was implying, I just didn’t express that very well. :) He’s been there all along and his presence is felt in all of these episodes, he just wasn’t out there with that commanding voice of his.
.

I understand exactly what you meant. His lack of a presence in itself was such a powerful driving force of events. Just so hard to put into words :o


8 Cylons in the fleet. She either lied to save the chief or it really was deep in her mind and if so then that would mean currently. There is no way she could know how many would end up in the misc fleet of ships ahead of time. There must be some sort of communication between them all and if there is she would know about the spacing and the missing number 6. The question is......What is Baltar to do with this information? :eek: I don't think he's gonna be telling the Commander, I think he's got his own agenda (whatever Six has in store for him that is :p )

Easter Lily
August 6th, 2005, 09:49 PM
Battlestar Galactica must be the ultimate assault on the senses... at least where television is concerned. No matter whether you love or hate the characters, they suck you right in and then spit you back out leaving you in a daze. The characters are really what makes it interesting for me because if it wasn't for them, the show would degnerate into a soapfest.

I absolutelybloomingly love this episode but I also realise that it couldn't have come about without the last three... LS, I absolutely agreed with everything you said in your analysis but then we seldom disagree, do we... ;)

Can I say first of all that I am so relieved to see Adama up and about? Yes, I cheered in an ungirly fashion but after the last three episodes, I was ready to throw something large and heavy at Col Tigh. It is becoming obvious the show isn't the same without him and everything is in such an unholy mess with him incapacitated. The end of the world may be nigh but Cmdr Adama is makes us believe that with him at the helm the colonists will somehow make it through the worst.

Doc Cottle is becoming a favourite. That snarky humour is welcome relief to all that grimness... A doctor who smokes and tells it like it is, is a refreshing change from all that deception, manipulation and backstabbing.

Phew... and that's just my preamble... :p

I see these first four episodes as one continuous thread and it is a fascinating if not grim study of leadership. The issue of leadership is especially important here because the fleet is now leaderless... the military leader is down, and the civilian leader is ousted so the remnant colonists are scattered and must look within to find others to lead the way.
Col Tigh... poor man... I don't hate him by the way... is unable to rise to the occasion. He is an experienced military officer but he is unable to lead or command. He doesn't understand people or consider the consequences of his actions, neither do his actions inspire confidence, therefore, he cannot garner respect from his subordinates. Which obviously doesn't help if one has to erm... lead. Of course it doesn't help that he has a wife who makes Lady Macbeth look like a girl scout. With her whispering naughty nothings in his ear and an alcohol addled brain, the man doesn't have a chance.

Crashdown... poor boy... Don't hate him either... Another good example that rank does not equal ability to command. A person who doesn't do well in a pressure cooker... not good with people... and not exactly a calming influence. So he crashes. I don't think he was crazy, by the way, but I do think that he felt responsible for the deaths of the other men who seemed to have died for nothing. I'm somewhat interested in the theory that someone suggested in this thread that Baltar is the turncoat not Crash.... hmmm... have to think about it some more.

Chief Tyrol... I'm beginning to actually like... Love isn't exactly a many splendoured thing... but a cylon. And yet there's a quiet dignity about him which showed in the tribunal episode, which I liked. His actions then and in these last four episodes covered, for me, a multitude of sins. The man at least understands people and knows what they must be feeling. It's not hard to see why he inspires so much loyalty among his people.

Lee Adama... sigh... he's one of my favourites... so there's not much he does that is wrong in my eyes... until this episode. "Even good people make bad decisions," so says Ron D Moore... While I understand why he scoots off with Madam Prez, I don't agree with it. I'm with LS and Billy on this... That said, I think it's pretty consistent with who he is. I'm not surprised he did it but I'm disappointed that he had to... especially just before Dad wakes up... :rolleyes:
But it doesn't mean that he is a bad leader... on the contrary, he is a very good leader. And people know that... at least Dee does anyway. He's a good CAG (observe his own "cheer squad" in the briefing room), a reliable officer, and a good man between a rock and a hard place. Note the parallels between Lee commanding a small group in Ep 2 (which was also very good) and Crashdown doing the same. A small group of jittery individuals facing centurions but Lee, in spite of his own fears, inspires confidence while Crash instills more fear and distrust. Furthermore, for Lee to pull off this escape, he had to have not only the nouse but also the affection of his co-conspirators.

If BSG has a weakness, it is the way it tries to integrate the mythical aspects with the main storyline. At this stage it feels too much to me like an add on and I don't feel that the writers are very comfortable delving into its ramifications. But I won't jump on them too hard because I'm still hoping that there's a lot more to it than some retrodden Messianic myth prattled off by people who don't seem convinced by it. While I'm a little bit intrigued by Roslin's messianic status... I'm not very convinced by it. I don't know if she is either and yet she's doing her darndest to tear the fleet apart to get to where she has to. It seemed rather sudden to begin with and now the Quorum of 12 are throwing themselves at her feet. Euwwww... Yeah, not too convinced... Now, I'm not sure if that's deliberate because I do wonder at the back of my mind from time to time if the cylons aren't pulling strings behind the scenes to get "the prophecy fulfilled" because they want to blow Earth up too. I suppose that possibility will always exist.
All this to say that Roslin is far more interesting as the teacher turned politician than she is as politician turned Messiah... well, I'm not buying it... yet...

But a great start to the season nonetheless...

ylai
August 6th, 2005, 11:42 PM
They are the only thing that stands between them and the Cylons.

[...]

Principles are a great thing to have, and like I said I admire Lee for having them and standing up for them and I even agree with them in our real life setting, but the people on BSG live in a very different reality.

This is a strange perspective. Generally, all TV series with potential social criticsm built into them do not really happen in an "alternative reality" in term of their message. This should be especially true for BSG.


The military government provides protection against the terrorists (the Cylons). The democratic one does not unless it has access to a military. You don’t negotiate with terrorists, which is the only option that the civilian government would have if the military ceased to exist. That is if the terrorists didn’t blow them up before they ever made it to the negotiating table.

Sorry, but I strongly disagree here. And in fact, you probably missed one important message of the past few episodes. The military government in BSG is dangerous because they do not provided the colonist the most critical enemy beside the cylons: the human themselves and in fact the military.

Just look at the alcoholic Tigh in power.

In fact, you even missed the point Cdr. Adama made in the miniseries: It is not about the bare survival, it is also about having a purpose. What is the purpose to survive and ruled by a rampant (and drunk) dictatorship?

dec55
August 6th, 2005, 11:43 PM
Grace was awesome in this episode......I am so glad there are a ton
of Sharons out there to keep Grace on the show....:D

kiwigater
August 7th, 2005, 12:13 AM
awesome awesome awesome ep :D
I too keep waiting for the ground to fall away from under us - how can they possibly keep up such powerful, wonderful eps for the whole season??!? :o

Yes, I'm very very glad to see Tigh go, or at least have less of him, I'm sort of sympathetic to the character (yeah, with a wife like that... :eek: ). I was getting a bit bored of seeing him frak things up even more, altho it really is like watching a train wreck in slow motion, I can't help but watch!

Overwhelmingly glad to see the Old Man back :D Unsuprised at Roslin's plans to get off the ship, but taken aback at Lee's willingness to help her, and the lengths to which he went :S

Tryol is fast becoming my fav character - human and fallible, but with a huge heart, love him! I felt so sorry for him when Galactica Boomer died in his arms - how conflicted must he feel! Altho I couldn't help thinking that at that moment her consciousness was being dl-ed into a new body.... :eek:

It was great to get back to Caprica, I do wonder how all these threads will get tied together eventually. Having Starbuck on Caprica seems like a great disservice to the character, she's wasted there... well not really, but that's the way it feels a bit :o

aiiiii, military vs civilian government.... wow, there's a dilemma that can't really be proven. My own feelings are that it was absurd to reconstitute the civilian government so soon after the initial attack. On the run, under attack and in dire circumstances hardly seems the time to be focusing on civilian political struggles :S However, having done so, I don't feel it's right for the military to overthrow that government just because they don't like the decisions that are being made, or who's in power. But on the other hand (yes, I have a lot of hands ;) ), as we've seen, Tigh is completely inadequate as a leader, and even Adama's decisions haven't always had the good of the colony, but the good of the ship and HIS people at their heart.

see, way too complicated! Really, they all seem to spend way to much time focused on petty things, when they are in danger of being completely eliminated at any moment.....

minh
August 7th, 2005, 01:52 AM
Sorry, but I strongly disagree here. And in fact, you probably missed one important message of the past few episodes. The military government in BSG is dangerous because they do not provided the colonist the most critical enemy beside the cylons: the human themselves and in fact the military.

Just look at the alcoholic Tigh in power.

In fact, you even missed the point Cdr. Adama made in the miniseries: It is not about the bare survival, it is also about having a purpose. What is the purpose to survive and ruled by a rampant (and drunk) dictatorship?

I wholeheatedly agree. I believe that we should follow our conscience moreso than rules. How many Nazis excused themselves crimes because they were just following orders. If Tigh ordered you to murder Roslin, because she's a political opposition, would you do it? What if you were forced to strave her and witness her waste away? Will you follow your conscience or orders? In the end, the only important thing is that you must take responsibility for whatever actions you did. I'm not sure Tigh will take responsibility for what he did. Adama, I don't think he really accepts that it was his fault for ordering the coup and placing Tigh in charge. Lee and Roslin, I believe they know their actions have consquences, good and bad, and are fully commited to take responsibility for whatever happens. That is what make them admirable; in a Socrates sort of way.

I could go even further and argue that there is no right nor wrong. No self, no reality, no consciousness and no free will. Then everything is pointless. But that's going outside of this discusion, and wandering towards philosophy.

Easter Lily
August 7th, 2005, 05:46 AM
This is a strange perspective. Generally, all TV series with potential social criticsm built into them do not really happen in an "alternative reality" in term of their message. This should be especially true for BSG.
I think what LS means is that BSG doesn't have a fully functioning democracy. The fleet is in a rather unusual situation. More often than not security needs to take precedence over political niceties.
Consider also that Roslin has now been crowned Messiah of the colonists and is doing her utmost to get the prophecy fulfilled... that's not exactly the kind of thing we read about everyday.


Sorry, but I strongly disagree here. And in fact, you probably missed one important message of the past few episodes. The military government in BSG is dangerous because they do not provided the colonist the most critical enemy beside the cylons: the human themselves and in fact the military.

Just look at the alcoholic Tigh in power.

In fact, you even missed the point Cdr. Adama made in the miniseries: It is not about the bare survival, it is also about having a purpose. What is the purpose to survive and ruled by a rampant (and drunk) dictatorship?

The military is not the problem... people are the problem... or in this case individuals are. Col Tigh may be incompetent but he was right about the fact Roslin caused the loss of a key military asset. She acted against all advice given to her because she believed that she is the key to humanity's salvation. Whether you believe she is, is one thing, but don't forget she manipulated Starbuck to get her to go to Caprica. As Billy pointed out, she undermined all the goodwill and trust that had been built up between the military and civil authority. It could just as easily be said that she is as dangerous as Tigh.

yaaayoubetcha
August 7th, 2005, 07:26 AM
I'm goin to be in the minority here and say that i thought it was a pretty weak ep.

The writers had invested too much time in Caprica for Helo to not meet other people there, so Kara is sent back and then they meet 'the resistance.' Which turns out to be a streetball team. Hmmm

And for the streetball team to think they're doing something pro-active when it's been demonstrated that the cylons apparently have complete control of the planet, just makes me think there's an obvious setup for the final crushing defeat of the planet when the streetball team and it's followers are finally wiped out allowing Kara and Helo to make an escape. I suspect the cyclons know they're there and are just using them as a psych experiment for whatever purposes like they did Helo.

Also, did anybody see if they took the Arrow from the hummer before it got shot to pieces? I saw them both grab a lot of guns, but no humanity saving arrows.

Also, I think the writers have been hammering away at Tigh and his use of alcohol to try and distract the audience from the fact that Roslin is essentially an opium addict. I think shortly after Adama returns there will be the counterpoint and something will happen that causes people to question the leadership of a person that's hittin the root every day. Perhaps Kobol isn't Kobol but just another cylon ploy. Who knows. Just for basic story telling, they cannot have a fractured fleet for too long. This is why i think Roslin's religious advisor is a cylon. Said it last season and I'm sticking with it. Best way to get a leader to follow bad advice is under the guise of drugs and religion.

It'll be interesting to see how the split fleet that seems to have been layed out in the previews plays out, but, this ep, as whole, i thought was pretty weak.

keshou
August 7th, 2005, 09:25 AM
I think what LS means is that BSG doesn't have a fully functioning democracy. The fleet is in a rather unusual situation. More often than not security needs to take precedence over political niceties.
Consider also that Roslin has now been crowned Messiah of the colonists and is doing her utmost to get the prophecy fulfilled... that's not exactly the kind of thing we read about everyday.
I agree with LS that the fleet needs the military way more than the democracy at this point. But what was established in the miniseries is that there's a place for a democratic voice to temper the military decisions - even in wartime. This fleet wouldn't even be together if Roslin hadn't insisted on rounding up as many civilian ships as she could.

I was totally behind Adama in Kobol. I though Roslin was acting as a fool - she's dying and taking drugs that make her hallucinate and then sending one of the fleets best military assets (Starbuck) off to chase a dream. Without Adama's permission. But then Adama pushed it too far - as he's wont to do - when he sent troops to her ship. There was nothing good that was going to come from that. Even the bridge crew didn't seem to back his decision.

However - I still think Adama is the best strategic thinker and the best leader. And they are at war. He's the one who can get the most survivors from Point A to Point B. The military naturally takes the upper hand in these situations. Roslin has gone from providing a different "voice" in the proceedings to setting herself up as a messiah for the people. Dangerous stuff. But would she have ended up there without Adama's actions in Kobol? And Tigh's reign of incompetence?

I think Billy staying behind is interesting. He was in a position to steer Roslin in a different direction - during the whole incident in Kobol I&II - and just wasn't strong enough to do it. But he's also one of the few who really knows how unstable she is. He went up a notch in my book. Although staying with Dee probably figured in there as well.

I feel Apollo's acting on his principles. Even in the miniseries he seemed to believe very strongly in having a civilian government to provide a balance to the military - even in a fleet that's on the run. But I don't think he would be backing Roslin and helping her escape if he hadn't been pushed in that direction by Tigh's actions. I DO think Lonestar made a good point up the thread that perhaps ousting Tigh would have been a better choice - he certainly isn't popular. But maybe Apollo didn't feel he had enough support to perform a military coup. Whereas a few conspirators could cause Roslin's escape easily enough.

I've also wondered if Apollo decided to take off with Roslin because he can't face his father. :(

Whatever happens you're seeing everyone choose their destiny. Apollo is striking out on his own - against his father. Baltar is becoming a man with an agenda.

It's going to be very, very interesting to see how Adama deals with all this.

ylai
August 7th, 2005, 11:09 AM
Let me try to defend some of my sentences:


The military is not the problem... people are the problem... or in this case individuals are. Col Tigh may be incompetent but he was right about the fact Roslin caused the loss of a key military asset.

The thing about Cdr. Adama/Col. Tigh that annoys me most is that they did not get the concept that people make concious decisions. To fly back to Caprica is a concious decision by Starbuck - and I agree with minh here.

If you take this point of view, the complete opposite is Cdr. Adama, who made the decision to make finding Earth as the "purpose" of the fleet, yet he does not stand behind it, especially all the consequences.


She acted against all advice given to her because she believed that she is the key to humanity's salvation. Whether you believe she is, is one thing, but don't forget she manipulated Starbuck to get her to go to Caprica.

I disagree. She did not manipulate, she presented the situation as it appeared to her to Starbuck. This manipulation tale comes from Cdr. Adama and is simply not true. I would welcome you to quote verbally where she supposed have "manipulated" her.


I though Roslin was acting as a fool - she's dying and taking drugs that make her hallucinate and then sending one of the fleets best military assets (Starbuck) off to chase a dream. Without Adama's permission.

Also here: The decision to fly to Caprica is a decision Starbuck made by her own concious decision. Pres. Roslin only merely presented the fact as it appeared to her - and not as a "fool". You can clearly see (already indicated at that point, and more the next episodes) that her view is shared by a significant part of the fleet, who are definitively not taking Kamala.

And also here you forgot the "dream" is triggered by the decision of Cdr. Adama himself. Putting Roslin in brig for a course of events that has been triggered by himself is a sign of extremely weak personality.

LoneStar1836
August 7th, 2005, 12:37 PM
Generally, all TV series with potential social criticsm built into them do not really happen in an "alternative reality" in term of their message. This should be especially true for BSG.I agree, but what I’m saying is that at this very moment, I, myself, am not living on a civilian spaceship fleeing through space from mechanical machines that just committed genocidal mass murder. Now if that is not a different reality, then I don’t know what is. :P So yes, while the social commentary is very much relevant to our reality, these people on BSG are facing a much vastly different physical reality, and thus I do think that some actions and principles that would be completely rational in our reality, have to be judged based on BSG’s reality. Thus I can’t agree with what Lee or Roslin did in helping to widen the rift in the fleet by fleeing, and thus putting the fleet in even greater danger. In my opinion, the people of BSG are in much greater need of security from a military force than having a functioning civilian democracy.
I think what LS means is that BSG doesn't have a fully functioning democracy. The fleet is in a rather unusual situation. More often than not security needs to take precedence over political niceties.
Consider also that Roslin has now been crowned Messiah of the colonists and is doing her utmost to get the prophecy fulfilled... that's not exactly the kind of thing we read about everyday.Bingo! That is exactly what I’m trying to say. Thanks for saying it better than I could. :)

Sorry, but I strongly disagree here. And in fact, you probably missed one important message of the past few episodes. The military government in BSG is dangerous because they do not provided the colonist the most critical enemy beside the cylons: the human themselves and in fact the military.That may be the message you got from those episodes, but it’s not the one I did. Though actually I’m not quite sure what you are saying there. :S Are you saying that a military government is not capable of protecting humans from themselves or from the possible abuses of the military towards civilians?

I guess that would all have to depend on how one actually feels about the military. Now, me, I personally will always support the U.S. military and its troops, so of course I have a biased view of the military because I see it in a positive light and have high esteem for my military. So I don’t automatically assume that a military is an entity that can’t be trusted. I trust my military. Now I don’t have blind trust in them, but I generally believe in what they do and that they try their best to do the right thing. Thus I believe that the military on BSG is trying its hardest to do the right thing.

So back to my original statement.

The military government provides protection against the terrorists (the Cylons). The democratic one does not unless it has access to a military. You don’t negotiate with terrorists, which is the only option that the civilian government would have if the military ceased to exist. That is if the terrorists didn’t blow them up before they ever made it to the negotiating table.Situation: I’m living on a civilian ship in space with killer machines chasing me. Do I want a democratic government, with no military capacity, “protecting” my civil rights or do I want a military government providing me physical protection? This is the choice you are going to have to make in the next episode because President Roslin is forcing you to choose sides. You can have your basic civil right of having representation in a civilian government if you go with her, but no military protection OR you can remain under the protection of Galactica which is better equipped to provide for your physical security from the most pressing enemy which is the Cylons (not other civilians or the military, imo) but not have a voice because there is no civilian government.

I still believe security outweighs my need to have a voice in the decisions of how business of the fleet is conducted. In this particular situation, I would trust the military to look out for my needs.

The only reason the military in “Resistance” endangered and ended up accidentally killing 4 civilians was because the civilians of that ship refused to re-supply Galactica, otherwise the military would have never been sent to that civilian ship in the first place. These civilians were upset and rightly so, but I think they made the wrong choice in forcing Galactica’s hand.

The only other time that I thought the military endangered the fleet (other than not forcing Tigh to step down) was when Adama refused to give up on finding Starbuck. He let personal feeling hinder his judgment and thus the President was needed to step in and tell the military that this was not what was best for the protection of the rest of the civilians in the fleet. Otherwise, I think the military has made the best decisions that it can in protecting the fleet. So in my opinion, BSG’s military has pretty much done what was in the best interest of protecting the civilians of the fleet and thus I have no reason to believe that it couldn’t continue to make critical decisions on my behalf. Therefore, I am willing to relinquish my voice in a civilian government in order to remain under Galactica’s protection. I just hope and pray I’m not on one of those ships that chooses to follow Roslin and jump to Kobol (if that indeed is what scenario is going to play out next week).

Just look at the alcoholic Tigh in power.And that is why I think Lee should have considered the option of forcing Tigh out of power. Imo, that would have been the option that was in the best interest of the entire fleet. Not splitting the fleet in hopes of forcing the military to back down and reinstate Roslin. I would hope that Lee would believe that once his father was in a position to make decisions, Adama would reinstate a civilian government. Now I highly doubt that Roslin would regain her position but a civilian gov. would be in place, and that is the underlying principle for Lee’s dissension - the civilian government had been dismantled. Now I’m not certain that is what Adama is going to do, but it is what I believe he would do.
In fact, you even missed the point Cdr. Adama made in the miniseries: It is not about the bare survival, it is also about having a purpose. What is the purpose to survive and ruled by a rampant (and drunk) dictatorship?I didn’t miss that point. I actually made that point in my other post. It was in the paragraph that I had in spoiler tags. :)

ylai
August 7th, 2005, 01:43 PM
Are you saying that a military government is not capable of protecting humans from themselves or from the possible abuses of the military towards civilians?

I guess that would all have to depend on how one actually feels about the military. Now, me, I personally will always support the U.S. military and its troops, so of course I have a biased view of the military because I see it in a positive light and have high esteem for my military. So I don’t automatically assume that a military is an entity that can’t be trusted.

I think the most important thing I would like comment on this is: The military in BSG is not the US armed forces. And BSG with Cdr. Adama is not BSG with Col. Tigh. Just to make it clear: My comments are in the context the entities are not to be mixed up.

And even our world is not just the U.S. I think if you are familiar with some of the totalitarian coutries in our world, you will think differently about the military in the sense how it is sometimes (ab)used by the persons in power as always that "nice". History does not always play out as it was in North America.

This is the reason why people have democracy.


The only other time that I thought the military endangered the fleet (other than not forcing Tigh to step down) was when Adama refused to give up on finding Starbuck.

The most questionable decision was to dissolve the Quorum. By all means: this is the legitimately elected government, and neither Tigh or Adama has any right to dissolve them.


Now I highly doubt that Roslin would regain her position but a civilian gov. would be in place, and that is the underlying principle for Lee’s dissension - the civilian government had been dismantled. Now I’m not certain that is what Adama is going to do, but it is what I believe he would do.

Please explain what you mean. Roslin has virtually the support of all of the Quorum members. The support among the actual citizens will be hardly different. Do you mean by "dismantle" to install a puppet civilian government?

You know, look in the history. There are many cases things went this way. The world is not the U.S.

Qasim
August 7th, 2005, 02:14 PM
Glad to see the old man wake up

LoneStar1836
August 7th, 2005, 03:00 PM
I believe that we should follow our conscience moreso than rules. How many Nazis excused themselves crimes because they were just following orders. If Tigh ordered you to murder Roslin, because she's a political opposition, would you do it? What if you were forced to strave her and witness her waste away? Will you follow your conscience or orders?How are those examples relevant to BSG? I have yet to see the military of BSG even hint at considering such acts.

Adama is not spacing all the citizens in the fleet who have their ethnicity connected to say the colony of Geminon. Tigh has never considered murdering Roslin. He may wish he could since she helped to instigate the situation that is happening now, but he would never order such things that you are using as hypothetical examples. So I fail to see the relevance of those examples.

Of course any sane person would object to such acts. ;)


I disagree. She did not manipulate, she presented the situation as it appeared to her to Starbuck. This manipulation tale comes from Cdr. Adama and is simply not true. I would welcome you to quote verbally where she supposed have "manipulated" her.In my opinion, Roslin did manipulate Starbuck. She used Starbuck’s loyalty to Adama against her. Kara had complete faith in Adama, and when she learned that Adama had betrayed that trust, she lashed out by agreeing to do what Roslin suggested. I consider that manipulation of Starbuck’s feelings.

And also here you forgot the "dream" is triggered by the decision of Cdr. Adama himself. Putting Roslin in brig for a course of events that has been triggered by himself is a sign of extremely weak personality.I fail to see how that is a sign of Adama having a weak personality. How did he know going to what may or may not be Kobol was going to trigger some possible drug induced vision by Roslin. Does Adama even know she has visions? I don’t think so. They initially discovered Kobol because they were looking for supplies. Then Adama suggested that they consider permanent settlement there. Not quite sure I agreed with him there but I guess you have to start somewhere and can’t run forever.

Here was their later conversation:

Roslin: So, according to the scriptures, if we had the Arrow of Apollo we could take it down to Kobol and we could use it to open the tomb of Athena and find our way to Earth.
Adama: I didn't know you were that religious.
Roslin: Neither did I. Something wrong with that?
Adama: No. It's just new. There is no Earth, you understand that.
Roslin: It would seem that we were wrong. Commander, just because you and I don't know where it is doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Adama: Madam President, I'm not trying to mock your faith, so please understand me. These stories about Kobol, gods, the Arrow of Apollo... they're just stories, legends, myths. Don't let it blind you to the reality that we face.
Roslin: Reality is that the cylon raider has been successfully jump-tested. Reality is that cylon technology obviously outstrips our own, and reality is, there is a good chance the raider can jump all the way back to Caprica and retrieve that arrow and find our way to Earth, the real Earth.
Adama: The raider's a military asset. I'm not gonna use it to go chasing some mythical arrow. I'm sorry.
Later……..

Billy: If you do this, it could threaten everything that we've accomplished. It will probably bring down the government and you don't have a right to risk that for a...
Roslin: Go on.
Billy: For a drug-induced vision of prophecy.
Roslin: I am well aware of that. But it would seem that the gods have a different plan. Would you please get me Lt. Thrace?

Starbuck: You can't be serious.
Roslin: All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again. The cylon you interrogated, he quoted that bit of scripture. He also said that we would find Kobol and Kobol would show us the way, did he not?
Starbuck: Yes, he did.
Roslin: Well, we have found Kobol. Do you believe in the gods, Lieutenant?
Starbuck: Not that it's any of your business, but, yes, I believe.
Roslin: Lieutenant, I'm not trying to put you on the defensive, I just-- I would like you to think this through with me. If you believe in the gods, then you believe in the cycle of time, that we are all playing our parts in a story that is told again, and again, and again, throughout eternity.
Starbuck: That's the way I was raised. But that doesn't mean that my part in the story is to go off on some crazy-ass mission against orders.
Roslin: May I tell you the part of the story that it would seem, I am playing? I am dying.
Starbuck: What?
Roslin: I have terminal breast cancer. I have six months at the outside to live and I've only told three people so I would appreciate it if you kept it to yourself.
Starbuck: Of course. Are you saying that you're--
Roslin: The scriptures tell us that a dying leader led humanity to the promised land. If you go back to Caprica and bring me the arrow, I will show us the way.
Starbuck: This is crazy.
Roslin: You keep using that word. It is crazy, perhaps. But it doesn't mean it isn't true. And it may be our only chance, our only chance to find Earth.
Starbuck: The old man is our last chance to find Earth. He knows where it is, he said so, you were there. The location is a secret but he is going to take us there.
Roslin: Commander Adama has no idea where Earth is. He never did, he made it up in order to give people hope.
Starbuck: You're lying.
Roslin: Go ask him.
Starbuck: I will.
I still see Roslin as the instigator because she insisted on using the Raider to retrieve the arrow (which may or may not actually do what Roslin hopes it will do). After Adama refused to do that, she went behind his back and turned Starbuck against him. I’d be pissed as well and want to throw her in the brig because she overstepped her jurisdiction and had essentially betrayed him. Adama was impulsive when he sent a contingent of troops to take her into custody, but she had just endangered the fleet, so he wasn’t think with a calm head on his shoulder, but I think they might have worked it out latter if Boomer hadn’t shot him, BUT……………….then we wouldn’t get all this intriguing and intellectual goodness that resulted. :D


I think the most important thing I would like comment on this is: The military in BSG is not the US armed forces. And BSG with Cdr. Adama is not BSG with Col. Tigh. Just to make it clear: My comments are in the context the entities are not to be mixed up.Check. Check. And check. I agree and never suggested otherwise so we are clear in that regards.


And even our world is not just the U.S. I think if you are familiar with some of the totalitarian coutries in our world, you will think differently about the military in the sense how it is sometimes (ab)used by the persons in power as always that "nice". History does not always play out as it was in North America.

This is the reason why people have democracy.Oh, I’m very much aware of what military dictatorships can lead to. We just overthrew one in Iraq. ;) So I’m all for democracy. And there is one that is alive and well in North Korea, Pakistan, and other countries. I may not be as well versed in world history as I’d like to be, but I did minor in history in college and have an armature interest in history in general so I’m well aware that not all militaries have the best interest of the people that they are supposed to be protecting in mind.

But the military of BSG has yet to demonstrate that they are willing to round up dissenters and start executing them so I’m still optimistic that eventually, democracy will return to the fleet. Just not tomorrow. But before the mid season break, I predict democracy will have returned to the fleet, because I believe that Adama is as much of a supporter of democracy.


The most questionable decision was to dissolve the Quorum. By all means: this is the legitimately elected government, and neither Tigh or Adama has any right to dissolve them.I agree that was the most “questionable” decision, but did that put the actual fleet in physical danger. Imo, no.


Please explain what you mean. Roslin has virtually the support of all of the Quorum members. The support among the actual citizens will be hardly different. Do you mean by "dismantle" to install a puppet civilian government?Sorry. I wasn’t very clear there. What I meant was that I think Adama would have reinstate the Quorum’s authority (i.e. civilian gov) if Lee and Roslin wouldn’t have bolted. Roslin would still be confined to the brig, but with Baltar being the elected VP, he would serve as interim president. Lee would still have his objections to her being confined and not in power like he thinks she should be, but at least a civilian government elected by the people would be back in place. Besides Roslin was never technically elected anyway, and with this new revelation of hers, how do we know that the majority of people will continue to support her. To solve that go ahead and hold new elections for president. Let the people decide whether they wanted her back or not. That would be the fairest thing to do. Then if she was elected, then Adama should have to support the people’s decision.
You know, look in the history. There are many cases things went this way. The world is not the U.S.And BSG is not necessarily the world. ;)

Now I hope neither of you don’t think I’m trying to be aggressive towards y’all in defending my view points. :) I’m just disagreeing in, I hope, the politest manner possible. It is a TV show after all, so everybody is entitled to their own interpretations. Especially with this show were nothing is cut and dry and open to all kinds of interpretations and opinions which is what makes it so great. :)


Also, did anybody see if they took the Arrow from the hummer before it got shot to pieces? I saw them both grab a lot of guns, but no humanity saving arrows.Starbuck did have the arrow in her hand when they got to that high school. To me it looked like they drove her Hummer back cause the windshield was shot out. What I found amazing was at how the Hummer survived all that gunfire - the engine block, the tires. Starbuck must have some of those run-flat tires (as well as armor plating since someone forgot to draw in the pretty bulletholes) that our military Hummers have unless that Pyramid team is really that bad a shot. :D

Easter Lily
August 7th, 2005, 03:22 PM
Let me try to defend some of my sentences:
The thing about Cdr. Adama/Col. Tigh that annoys me most is that they did not get the concept that people make concious decisions. To fly back to Caprica is a concious decision by Starbuck - and I agree with minh here.

If you take this point of view, the complete opposite is Cdr. Adama, who made the decision to make finding Earth as the "purpose" of the fleet, yet he does not stand behind it, especially all the consequences.
Yes... he lied to them... but as he said... to give them hope... Roslin knew that he had lied... She agreed to keep his secret for the greater good. Why didn't she say anything beforehand? Why did she wait until now, when she wanted something out of Starbuck to bring it up?
Oh, I know Starbuck made a conscious decision to do so but only after having her buttons pushed by Roslin. Let's not kid ourselves... Roslin wasn't just giving Starbuck "the facts". If her conversation with Starbuck doesn't smack of manipulation I don't know what does. What she did here was also asking Starbuck to bypass the chain of command which is another serious breach of protocol.
Every organization has rules and regulations and functions because of those laws. If every single person starts acting according to what they see is right... the military or any civlian authority is redundant... and society will descend into chaos. As we have seen in KGL... Roslin's actions certainly triggered off a whole chain of events.


I disagree. She did not manipulate, she presented the situation as it appeared to her to Starbuck. This manipulation tale comes from Cdr. Adama and is simply not true. I would welcome you to quote verbally where she supposed have "manipulated" her.
I mentioned that even Billy saw that how detrimental this action that she took could be. If you look at the deleted scenes for KLG 1 or 2, you will see that even Lee told her to talk to Adama again and try to persuade his father to change his mind. It is likely that she tried to get him to cross his father earlier but wasn't successful so she tried it on Starbuck.
In the mini-series, Roslin promised Adama that she would keep his "little secret" in exchange for co-operation between the military and civilian authority. She reneged on that because after taking drugs she now believes that she is the saviour of humanity.
According to the Meriam-Webster online dictionary, to manipulate is to "to manage or utilize skillfully b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage; to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose." Roslin asked Starbuck if she was religious... and she then she used Starbuck's religious leanings and broke a promise she made to Adama to convince her to make that jump. I think Roslin is dangerous because on this occasion she was so focused on achieving a particular end to the exclusion of all else. She ignored possible consequences of her action.
Now I may agree that Adama probably went over board in ordering the presidential coup but from his perspective, can you see why he would have difficulty believing Roslin's claims? He's a practical man... the woman wants to jeopardize a rescue attempt by looking for some arrow in a museum in Caprica. If someone today went around making claims that they were the salvation of the human race, most people would righly think that a) they're making a power grab or b) they're two fries short of a Happy meal.
Why should anyone believe what Roslin is saying is true especially if she's reluctant to show all her cards?

I am person with strong "religious" convictions myself so I'm not knocking people who do.(Which is partially the reason why I don't find Roslin's conversion all that convincing) But if something is prophetic, I believe it will come to pass... whether or not the people themselves know it or bring it about. Biblical history has shown that when human beings interfere, chaos results and has far-reaching consequences that can affect future generations of people.

Easter Lily
August 7th, 2005, 03:59 PM
I feel Apollo's acting on his principles. Even in the miniseries he seemed to believe very strongly in having a civilian government to provide a balance to the military - even in a fleet that's on the run. But I don't think he would be backing Roslin and helping her escape if he hadn't been pushed in that direction by Tigh's actions. I DO think Lonestar made a good point up the thread that perhaps ousting Tigh would have been a better choice - he certainly isn't popular. But maybe Apollo didn't feel he had enough support to perform a military coup. Whereas a few conspirators could cause Roslin's escape easily enough.
Oh, I think so too... he's acted very consistently with the person that we've come to know... In fact, I think he is probably the most principled person in the whole show. I was disappointed with his taking off with Roslin because he was infringing his parole (violating the principle of keeping one's word) but I'm certain that he thought that he did it for the greater good.
What fascinates me is that he doesn't blame either Adama or Roslin for what happens... He quietly accepts the consequences of their actions and of his own...
The man's a throwback... honestly... I'm getting Hornblower vibes every time I see him in action...


I've also wondered if Apollo decided to take off with Roslin because he can't face his father. :(
I don't think so... He's committed mutiny once already...;)
But I just think that he's so convinced of the rightness of his actions that he doesn't need to explain himself to anyone.

Thermonuclearboy
August 7th, 2005, 07:16 PM
Glad to see the old man wake up

I'm not. From what I saw in that last Adama-Tigh exchange, and from what I saw in the promo for next week's episode, it doesn't look good. Adama has a tendency to overlook the faults of the people he's closest to, and it looks as though he's gone right back into Enabler Mode with Tigh. Tigh screwed things up royally, but now Adama's going to make everything all right and Tigh will suffer no conseqeunces for his actions.

And whose side is Gaeta on? I get the impression he's trying not to actively take sides, only do what he thinks is right, so more power to him, but I worry for him. He's one of the few competent officers in the fleet. It's a miracle he hasn't been shot yet.

Easter Lily
August 7th, 2005, 08:40 PM
I'm not. From what I saw in that last Adama-Tigh exchange, and from what I saw in the promo for next week's episode, it doesn't look good. Adama has a tendency to overlook the faults of the people he's closest to, and it looks as though he's gone right back into Enabler Mode with Tigh. Tigh screwed things up royally, but now Adama's going to make everything all right and Tigh will suffer no conseqeunces for his actions.

And whose side is Gaeta on? I get the impression he's trying not to actively take sides, only do what he thinks is right, so more power to him, but I worry for him. He's one of the few competent officers in the fleet. It's a miracle he hasn't been shot yet.

Promos are in my opinion just that... promos... A way to lure people into the trap and get them to bite... it's seldom reflective of what actually happens in the actual episode. I don't know how many times I've seen the Lost teasers for the next week thinking one thing and then finding that the scenes shown are taken rather out of context. I've been involved in a similar discussion on an Atlantis thread so I'm not going to go into it here, suffice to say that I will reserve my judgement about the episode until I watch it in its entirety and comment on it accordingly.

As for your comment about Adama, I beg to differ... I don't think Adama necessarily "has a tendency to overlook" the faults of his people at all. He might not always throw the full force of the law at the offenders (and we could argue over the wisdom of that) but he knows very well what their flaws are. The man sees the bigger picture... As far as they know, they are the last of the human race as they know it... People are dying every day... They need every available personnel they can get. They don't have the luxury of throwing everyone in prison when their skills are badly needed. Perhaps you think Chief Tyrol got off scot-free, I don't think so... I think the guilt of what happened in Litmus is a far worse punishment for him than the brig. Adama knows that... and in that way he has killed two birds with a stone.
Tigh is not a leader... he didn't want to be... he was thrown into the lion's den... But when it comes to military matters, he certainly has the experience. He's terrible as far as diplomacy is concerned but he only took command because circumstances dictated as such. Adama is aware of the drinking problem but when Tigh sticks to the military side of things... he does okay.

Thermonuclearboy
August 8th, 2005, 06:39 AM
Tigh is not a leader... he didn't want to be... he was thrown into the lion's den... But when it comes to military matters, he certainly has the experience. He's terrible as far as diplomacy is concerned but he only took command because circumstances dictated as such. Adama is aware of the drinking problem but when Tigh sticks to the military side of things... he does okay.

All the more reason he shouldn't be Adama's second-in-command. He's simply not equipped to deal with leadership of the fleet should Adama be incapacitated. Granted, this is an unprecedented situation humanity finds itself in - no one was expecting the complete and utter annihiliation of civilization itself - and competence has to take a back seat to availability (ie, these aren't the best candidates to lead us, but they're all we got). But that also means there's no place for sentiment. Tigh may have invaluable military experience, but he's proven himself unfit to command. Besides his drinking problem, he has a disdain for civilians he doesn't bother to hide. He has no place being in a position where he could potentially end up leading the fleet. Yet there he is, by Adama's side, because Adama loves him and feels sorry for him, and will continue to make excuses for his behavior.

LoneStar1836
August 9th, 2005, 09:06 AM
While rewatching this episode Monday night, caught something I didn’t before. When Starbuck and Helo were in the standoff with Anders, she makes the comment that why didn’t they stop shooting when they saw that she and Helo were wearing Colonial military uniforms. Anders says because they had encountered other Cylons in uniform. So……was he talking about the Boomer model or could it be other models? If I were Starbuck, the first thing I’d want to him to do was describe what these other supposed Cylons in uniform looked like. Not play some pick-up game of shippy Pyramid. :rolleyes: Yeah, I know the writers are saving those revelations for later, but still………;)

Magniopi
August 9th, 2005, 11:42 AM
Anders says because they had encountered other Cylons in uniform. So……was he talking about the Boomer model or could it be other models?

Given how willing they were to "shoot first, ask questions later" with Starbuck and Helo, Anders and friends may very well have mistakenly killed human military survivors, too.

Of course, it's much better foreshadowing for the show if they did kill Cylons, but you never know.

LoneStar1836
August 9th, 2005, 01:23 PM
Given how willing they were to "shoot first, ask questions later" with Starbuck and Helo, Anders and friends may very well have mistakenly killed human military survivors, too.Very true, and I count that as a possibility, but I’m going for the foreshadowing angle.

They have obviously somehow come into close contact with a human Cylon, as evident by Anders quoting the words of Leoben, which might suggest the possibility that they captured one. Maybe more than one. Maybe one wearing a military uniform. How? I have no idea (unless it allowed itself to be captured) since they obviously aren’t a crack military squad or that good a shot. :D

plot mechanic
August 9th, 2005, 02:48 PM
BSG has reached social pathology status for me. The plotting is contrived. The characterizations are black and white, with some GOOD and others BAD. They are also inconsistent. The holocaust of humanity premise that supposedly makes the show realistically gritty is violated in the grossest way, with more civilians shown on Caprica than in the fleet! what do you people like about the show?

I'm going to skip commentary on current events. I'm afraid that for a start I don't see any possibility of BSG honestly confronting them. Explanation of how this episode is really bad follows. It is necessarily extraordinarily long.

pm

So, looking at the tape from last night, being plot mechanic, the first thing I notice is some plotting problems. The most glaring, yet most trivial, is the woman soldier in full combat gear blithely trotting down a corridor that is supposed to be undergoing low pressure testing! She gonna shoot the leaks?

The notion that there would be too much traffic to and from "Cloud Nine" (That name! Can we get any campier?) to track also stands out. Hope the Cylons never try overwhelming fleet defenses by firing bunches of missiles at them!

Logically, the freeing of the President is a climactic point of the revolution, not the beginning! Actually, Roslin's surrender in the season finale would in the real world pretty much finish her politically, as someone who didn't do her duty in defending democracy. Or as a loser who wasn't brave enough to stick up for herself. I suppose this absurdity was impelled by the conviction that a real woman doesn't resort to violence, or that democracy is not worth defending or that you can't have an actual confrontation between Adama and Roslin which reflects badly on Adama. Take your pick.

Talking about food and fuel being resupplied from the fleet is always a bad idea for BSG. These people should be starving, in ships out of fuel. Period. The guff about tyllium refining is ridiculous. The idea that there will be food freighters is just insane. There's no way that it could be cheaper to ship food from another planet. If there were Star Trek style replicators, you would expect the ships to carry on normally. But pretending in one episode that you've confronted the shortages issue for one of the few commodities you can recycle and/or find in abundance (namely, water,) then to blandly pretend in another you just have this stuff? The cheek is astounding.

The discovery of the survivors on Caprica is a gigantic hole in the holocaust of humanity premise of the series. Survivors because they were in "the" mountains. If mountains were all it took to survive those nuclear explosions in the mini, a planet full of mountains means lots of survivors.

The recent Stargate: Atlantis episode where higher solar radiation produces that urine colored glare made sense. There's no sane reason to think radioactive fallout does the same. So, to me, that glare says "stupidity," not radiation.

Incidentally, there are no radiation meds that can prevent or heal damage from ambient radiation. Not even in the BSG universe. Because, you remember, radiation damage causes cancer, among other things. But: It is well established that the BSG universe, despite FTL and artifical gravity, cannot prevent or cure cancer. I suppose this means that the Caprica "survivors" are actually characters in a Cylon virtual reality training scenario!

Starbuck was convinced of a guy's humanity...by the details of a televised game! In the torture apologia she was tormented by the Cylon's apparent knowledge of intimate details about her life. Am I the only one to notice the discrepancy? I bet this is supposed to be "meeting cute" with her new love interest.

Earlier in the series, Adama sent marines to help keep order on the ships. This is even a reason for a shortage of marines. So, why is it suddenly necessary to send out a bunch more? Skip over the fact that the refusal to actually show any civilians (no, President and Presidential secretary don't qualify) is yet another way of escaping the supposed holocaust of humanity premise. There is no reason for them to open the doors to let the marines on board!

This is particularly crude writing since the marines that were already supposed to be on board would naturally be expected to enforce orders for delivery of the mythical supplies! I don't think it's really possible to deny that this rigmarole is designed to put the blame for the massacre on Tigh. The thing is that both this and the martial law declaration are inevitable outcomes of Adama's actions. First writing out Adama with a shooting, then writing this clumsy sequence of events however, the producers make it seem that it is Tigh's fault things went wrong. This is just a dramatic copout from the consequences of the Adama/Roslin confrontation.

I think that's because, basically, Adama started all this because his beloved Starbuck was seduced away from him. This reflects badly on the character, so the sensational climax of season one has to be undone. Season two gets off to a slow start while it backs up, but there you are.

By the way, you really can't say that Adama was just disturbed because Roslin subverted discipline for a wild goose chase. In the context of a society that knows it was colonized from another planet, scriptures about another colony are history, not prophecy. Individual interpretations need not apply. Roslin did not claim the arrow was a mystic necessity. My guess is that it is probably a literal, physical key and/or pointer!

Adama can't know there is no Earth. Adama can't know that there is no information in the tomb of Athena. Adama can't know that the arrow has no simple practical function in getting that information. Adama didn't say, "Let's try making a copy of the arrow." He didn't say, "That museum and arrow are radioactive dust." He didn't go to the quorum and say, "The President's gone wacky. Swear in Baltar."

The whole mess is Adama's fault. It was Adama who started the whole Earth thing. Further, Adama does not actually have any plan at all. This is particularly unfortunate since if there is no Earth, the fleet does not have the materials to successfully start a new colony. Barring an authorial miracle, these people are doomed. Personally, I prefer my tragedies to be somewhat shorter. It gives them more punch.

As usual, plot contortions are accompanied by bungled characterizations. The Doctor's assistance to the President is particularly thickwitted. If there is anyone who have doubts about Roslin's mental condition, it's Cottle. If there's anyone who should be asked to certify Roslin, it's Cottle. Yet, Cottle's action is somehow not to be taken as establishing Roslin's mental competence. In spite of the fact that we viewers have seen that she genuinely does have prophetic dreams! Is it possible for writing to get any more confused?

Dualla's sudden discovery of Apollo ass is not quite so out of character. If you remember her few scenes, she is actually a very erratic character, to put it generously. So, yeah, she can lust Billy in one episode, and lust after Apollo in another, yet act cold and mean in others. Personally, I don't find it convincing or appealing.

Billy's turn against the president when he refuses to go with her to divide the fleet was foreshadowed. The problem is that he says this after he has already done everything she needed! This is like a bank robber saying to his confederates that he's not taking any of the money because he doesn't believe in stealing! Apparently the writers just wanted a voice in favor of passive resistance to the theft of democracy (very convenient to the thieves, no?) and foisted it on Billy. If you take this scene seriously, we now know poor Billy is a pinhead. No wonder Apollo is looking good to Dualla!

Maybe it's just me, but Tigh's disintegration wasn't quite convincing either. I mean, a big part of the mini was how he rose to the occasion under stress. Now it's the opposite. There is a difference now, which is Ellen. This character is not inconsistent: We never knew what she wanted! But she is BAD. BSG's penchant for black and white characterization is in full flower here. It produces a camp classic possibly on par with the likes of Alexis Carrington! You certainly can't accuse her of dullness. Nor believability. I think that she videotaped the threesome between her, Saul and Bill, so she's invulnerable! :D

I suppose one of the "fun" things about the episode was Baltar's little trick on Boomer. First, I don't think even the execution drugs kill so quickly. Second, there is no drug so easily, quickly and reliably reversed. Third, there's no brain stem death in ten seconds. Fourth, Baltar has no way of knowing that Boomer doesn't know this, or even understands it. Fifth, Baltar has no way of knowing that Boomer has any knowledge in her unconscious. Sixth, Baltar has no way of knowing that Boomer didn't just spout any old number, just to save the chief. Seventh, Baltar doesn't even know that Boomer had to override Cylon programming by sheer force of her love for the chief, since she may have just picked a number.

Despite all this, we may safely assume that this nonsense actually revealed true information. And, eighth, the chief should remember that Baltar said the detector actually worked. I doubt that he will for some reason, but Baltar couldn't know that.

There were some visually wacky moments as well. The civilians killed were somehow not killed by an actual soldier, despite being in a relatively small corridor at close quarters. The bullets just sort of wandered from the gun to the victim. The soldiers weren't even aiming. And since the bullets apparently went around corners the soldiers didn't even have to react! Can you say copout, children?

The Ruby shooting Oswald scene at the end was also notable. There is no sensible reason for transferring a prisoner from a brig to a makeshift cell. There is no sensible reason for a mob to come out of nowhere, unless you think Adama was such a crap commander that none of his people have any discipline at all. Last, there is no point to a Ruby/Oswald reference. It's just pretention to meaning.

The bookend drops of blood on the deck are ambiguous. Is the point that both human and Cylon bleed? Or is it ironic contrast? Literal bookends can point both ways too. I suppose someone with a conscience could try to seize upon this as a sign that the series actually has some awareness of genuine issues, like, what is humanity? I think it's supposed to be ironic contrast. After all, Starbuck, emotionally the central character, sets Helo straight on that in just a few words.

Easter Lily
August 9th, 2005, 04:00 PM
Tigh may have invaluable military experience, but he's proven himself unfit to command. Besides his drinking problem, he has a disdain for civilians he doesn't bother to hide. He has no place being in a position where he could potentially end up leading the fleet. Yet there he is, by Adama's side, because Adama loves him and feels sorry for him, and will continue to make excuses for his behavior.
Well, I think it goes both ways... Tigh has been incredibly loyal also...

What you say is true but I don't think human beings always make the best decisions... they make the decisions they think is best at the time they make it.

LoneStar1836
August 9th, 2005, 04:41 PM
what do you people like about the show?Plenty but there really isn’t much point in detailing why I enjoy it immensely since you seem to find fault with it. I’m obviously not going to change your mind. ;)

It’s called fanwanking over the minor details that I find difficult to rationalize. ;) Such as the Marine in the causeway that was "closed for repair".....

But hey I like that you point out things you see and disagree with, even though I don’t agree with the majority of what you say. Gives me more points to ponder though. So post away.....


Barring an authorial miracle, these people are doomed. Personally, I prefer my tragedies to be somewhat shorter. It gives them more punch.So I guess you’re hoping they meet their timely destruction at the end of this season….:P
I don't think it's really possible to deny that this rigmarole is designed to put the blame for the massacre on Tigh.I agree that they set up this episode to make people hate Tigh even more, though Adama's words at the end do lend themselves to creating sympathy for Tigh. It was Ellen who whispered sweet nothings in his ear telling him to be more of a man and don’t take this crap from these civilians. So I blame her for the killings because Tigh is so weak-minded around her especially when drinking. I just blame him for being stupid and listening to her.
The thing is that both this and the martial law declaration are inevitable outcomes of Adama's actions.Whose hand was forced by Roslin, imo. I know that you don’t see it that way, which is fine, but I do.
First writing out Adama with a shooting, then writing this clumsy sequence of events however, the producers make it seem that it is Tigh's fault things went wrong. Technically, Tigh did make things worse. He may have not got the ball rolling, but he kept it going.
This is just a dramatic copout from the consequences of the Adama/Roslin confrontation.Well speaking for myself, I quite enjoyed the drama and am looking forward to how this will be played out.
Billy's turn against the president when he refuses to go with her to divide the fleet was foreshadowed.It was but I didn’t think he would have the guts to go through with it. So when he finally did, I was surprised. It may have been last minute but at least he took a stand.
BSG's penchant for black and white characterization is in full flower here. It produces a camp classic possibly on par with the likes of Alexis Carrington!So when are we going to get the catfight a la “Dynasty”? Ellen vs. Roslin perhaps. :D
Dualla's sudden discovery of Apollo ass is not quite so out of character.Well it’s about damn time. I was worried she needed some glasses. :D

Easter Lily
August 9th, 2005, 05:21 PM
BSG has reached social pathology status for me. The plotting is contrived. The characterizations are black and white, with some GOOD and others BAD. They are also inconsistent. The holocaust of humanity premise that supposedly makes the show realistically gritty is violated in the grossest way, with more civilians shown on Caprica than in the fleet! what do you people like about the show?


I said something similar on another thread and I think it bears repeating...

I don't watch science fiction because it reflects RL in its entirety... and I don't critique it according to how I THINK it should be. Quite frankly, I didn't think that there are rules about how it should be done. Because a) I don't go into another person's work of art and say that he/she should have put more shading here or there... I'm no expert but I know what I like; b) I critique a piece of art on the basis of what the artist is trying to do and how consistent the characters are in accordance with the world that they've set up.
Obviously there are recognizable RL parallels but IMO, if people watch scifi to see how it mirrors real life, they obviously don't understand "fiction" in the same way I do.

On the surface, BSG looks realistic and very gritty... Well, it is gritty. But realistic... no... but it doesn't worry me... I watch it for drama... and drama is contrived... Apparently if I want reality I should be watching something like Big Brother... but then I don't... It's also contrived... and apparently has a little drama but it lacks imagination and creativity.

I parallel BSG or any scifi show for that matter to something like Aesop's Fables. I know in real life lions and mice don't talk, much less help each other get out of nets and things. I don't much care. I like the fact that somebody has got the imagination and intelligence to tell an old story in a new way and leaving it to our imagination and intelligence to know the difference between art and reality.

Jonisa
August 9th, 2005, 06:21 PM
BSG has reached social pathology status for me. The plotting is contrived. The characterizations are black and white, with some GOOD and others BAD. They are also inconsistent. The holocaust of humanity premise that supposedly makes the show realistically gritty is violated in the grossest way, with more civilians shown on Caprica than in the fleet! what do you people like about the show?

Good question. :)

For me, I watch and enjoy the show for the same reason that I watch certain other shows. I have grown to care about these characters and I want to see what happens to them. In any show there is some suspension of disbelief on my part, that's part of television, but BSG hasn't even come close to bothering me at all on that score. As a matter of fact, I love the continuity.

The other things I love about this show is that (IMO) it respects the intelligence of the viewer by not spoonfeeding us information. Instead, it lets us figure things out for ourselves. It raises lots of difficult questions that don't have easy answers, and it is constantly surprising me. Is it perfect? Of course not, and if I wanted to I could nitpick the show with the best of them, but I'm enjoying it so much right now I have no desire to do that.

I also love it for its great writing and acting, the way that the desperation of these survivors is so believable and real, and the way the intensity of their situation is kept up week after week.

But to reiterate what I initially said, I love it mostly because of the characters. I don't agree that some characters are GOOD and others are BAD. I see them as wonderfully complex. This is a character-driven drama that just so happens to be set on a battlestar out in space. I wouldn't want all of my scifi to be like this show, but I sure am glad that BSG is around. It is my favorite show.

This is all MHO, of course. :p

Easter Lily
August 9th, 2005, 07:48 PM
*slaps self on the head*
I forgot to mention how much I loved the characters on BSG... thanks for the reminder Jonisa... I've had such a heady discussion else where today that my grey matter has been fried...

Yeah... where were we...? Oh yes, characters...


BSG has reached social pathology status for me. The plotting is contrived. The characterizations are black and white, with some GOOD and others BAD. They are also inconsistent. The holocaust of humanity premise that supposedly makes the show realistically gritty is violated in the grossest way, with more civilians shown on Caprica than in the fleet! what do you people like about the show?

I really don't believe that any of the characters are the caricatures that you make them out to be. Maybe I have a very low view of human nature in general... but I think in BSG, people act pretty consistently with who they are. I don't think the characters on the BSG that I'm watching can so easily be categorized as being "good" or "bad". The fact that you can point to so many character flaws in your review suggests to me that the characters aren't so cut and dried. Actually, it also suggests to me that there's nothing at all good about any of them...
The way I look at BSG is that there are a bunch of people stuck together at the end of the world. They are human beings all trapped together in a situation that they don't want to be in. They do what they can to survive... They do what they, individually, THINK is right... (which is probably half the problem) To me, it's a fascinating look at choices and consequences. When these people make mistakes, boy... do they pay... dearly...
You blame Adama for the whole situation... which is interesing... I blame Roslin, first and foremost, but I also believe that Adama needs to shoulder some responsibility for his own actions in putting Roslin under arrest for what can also be perceived as a reckless move. But maybe we should just blame the cylons for the attack... or the original humans for constructing the cylons in the first place :p Blame is irrelevant... how far do you want to go... What is more interesting is how these actions are played and what are the consequences of action or inaction.

Personally I don't notice plot holes... I'm too busy emersing myself in the situation at hand and enjoying the way these people interact with each other on this show and on other shows...

NiM
August 9th, 2005, 11:24 PM
Anyone else catch the 'honorific' reference to Richard Hatch as Cpt. Apollo in the original series?

Zarek:"Good to see you madam president"
Roslyn:"Captain Apollo!"
*silence as Roslin is halfturned towards Zarek not quite turning away*
"What is Mr. Zarek doing here?"

Atleast i found it pretty funny ;)

sharky277
August 9th, 2005, 11:33 PM
I think Billy didn't leave because he love's Duella, well that's part of the reason anyway.

kiwigater
August 10th, 2005, 02:51 AM
Wow PM, that is quite the..... rant :)
I agree with what the others have said, I don't watch this show because it strictly adheres to reality, and in my opinion BSG is one of the few shows where the characters don't easily fall into good or bad categories. Is Tigh good or bad? No, he's both, and flawed. Same goes for Zerick, I want to hate him, but then again I also partially admire the goals he's trying to achieve, even if I think he's gone about it the wrong way and endangered everyone.
Eventually it all comes does to suspension of disbelief, are you willing to accept something that is unlikely in RL as furtherance to the story - and for me the series is so enthralling that yes, I am.
As a scientist this radiation meds thing is the one thing that ALWAYS drives me batty - the only anti-radiation meds we have on Earth, right now, is basically iodine which protects against one very specific form of radiation - it's not a cure all, and frankly in this situation is butt all use. :p However, I try to remind myself that this is NOT Earth, their culture is not our culture, and just cos WE haven't discovered "anti-radiation" meds doesn't mean it's not possible. Why can't another civilisation have discovered different things than us?

Anyway, no one is forcing anyone to watch the show, if you have that many issues with it, don't watch.

FeloniousMonk
August 10th, 2005, 10:25 AM
One thing about the Caprica scenes that always bugged me is the presence of virtually undamaged structures. Granted there's some serious wreckage around but the majority of Caprica City is standing. In the miniseries they showed us dozens of mushroom clouds yet the only evidence of such decimation is a few broken pillars and some shattered windows. With explosions like that the heart of the city would've been leveled.

Now I can buy that the Cylons wanted to keep Caprica City intact for their own purposes but I expected at least one solitary comment akin to "why are all the buildings still standing?" to coincide with the "where are all the bodies?" question posed previously.

LoneStar1836
August 10th, 2005, 01:48 PM
One thing about the Caprica scenes that always bugged me is the presence of virtually undamaged structures. Granted there's some serious wreckage around but the majority of Caprica City is standing. In the miniseries they showed us dozens of mushroom clouds yet the only evidence of such decimation is a few broken pillars and some shattered windows. With explosions like that the heart of the city would've been leveled.

Now I can buy that the Cylons wanted to keep Caprica City intact for their own purposes but I expected at least one solitary comment akin to "why are all the buildings still standing?" to coincide with the "where are all the bodies?" question posed previously.
I was reading on another board and people were discussing this. Helo probably didn’t head for Caprica City when GalBoomer left him since it got nuked, so he and CapBoomer have been in other smaller cities that didn’t warrant a bomb being dropped on them. Like they were in Delphi in KLG. Well if the US, for example, got nuked, you’re not going to nuke every moderately populated city (50,000-100,000 pop) so it’s safe to assume that the Cylons only targeted strategic cities and left others alone.

Liebestraume
August 10th, 2005, 06:52 PM
Plot mechanic, thanks for another thought-provoking post. Though I watch the episode just once -- only hours before no less -- I feel compelled to respond to your comments. Apologies in advance if I have to snip your original post here and there to keep this one from getting even more "necessarily extraordinarily long." :)


what do you people like about the show?I don't presume to speak for "us people" -- personally I've certainly discussed in these threads (sometimes at great length and doubtlessly to the chagrin of my fellow posters :D) some of the reasons I liked this show. And I think there is plenty to not dislike, even within the confines of the plot/character quandary you brought up.


The notion that there would be too much traffic to and from "Cloud Nine" (That name! Can we get any campier?) to track also stands out. ...This would have been a plot hole if taken at face value. However, if memory serves (and I'll check again), the notion was brought up by Gaeta, whom the episode had established as a sympathizer, if not a direct participant, to the so-called revolution. Thus I think it made sense within the context.


Logically, the freeing of the President is a climactic point of the revolution, not the beginning! ...Freeing-of-the-opposition-leader-as-climax-of-the-revolution has been overused in movie-making, often with mixed results. I am not sure what's so logical about it, given neither proposition nor deduction is actually involved; IMHO it's no more than dramatic choice and execution. In this particular instance, Roslin's escape in and of itself does not IMHO make compelling story-telling. Of more interest to me was what part each individual played in her escape, what choices he/she made, and the reasons for those choices.


... Actually, Roslin's surrender in the season finale would in the real world pretty much finish her politically, as someone who didn't do her duty in defending democracy. Or as a loser who wasn't brave enough to stick up for herself. I suppose this absurdity was impelled by the conviction that a real woman doesn't resort to violence, or that democracy is not worth defending or that you can't have an actual confrontation between Adama and Roslin which reflects badly on Adama. Take your pick.I won't belabor the Adama-v-Roslin issue here, since it has been addressed by many posters (with your truly duely to follow :p). Suffices it to say that the whole mess did make Adama look bad (and will continue to look worse, I think) -- and that's part of the charm of this show.

I strongly disagree with the notion that Roslin's "surrender" was in any way an indication of her failure "in defending democracy" or being "a loser who wasn't brave enough to stick up for herself." Bravery is defined in many different ways, and sometimes it is about putting others' lives before one's personal honor. You were quite correct in that Roslin didn't stick up for herself, but that was only because she knew The Articles of Colonization were bigger than a single person and did what was necessary to avoid the bloodshed which would surely endanger their democracy in its fragile state. IMHO she behaved with grace and statesmanship, but I fail to see how that has anything to do with her gender.



...These people should be starving, in ships out of fuel. Period. The guff about tyllium refining is ridiculous. The idea that there will be food freighters is just insane. There's no way that it could be cheaper to ship food from another planet. If there were Star Trek style replicators, you would expect the ships to carry on normally. But pretending in one episode that you've confronted the shortages issue for one of the few commodities you can recycle and/or find in abundance (namely, water,) then to blandly pretend in another you just have this stuff? ...Unless I missed something, Hand of God was about fuel resourcing -– which made it reasonable to assume the existence of a refining tanker within the rag-tag fleet. Water supply was of particular interest only as the result of sabotage, which would explain why the food shortage hasn't come up. Perhaps it would come to ahead somewhere down the road -- as of now, they are only, what, less than 60 days into their forced exile? It would not be too much of a stretch to say they still had enough to go around within the fleet.

I agree that it was quite a coincidence that there happened to be food freighters when cylons launched their attack, as was that there happened to be refining tankers. Then, by the same token, it was also very lucky for the fleet that Adama happened to be on a ship about to be decommissioned, or that Apollo happened to be flying Dad's old viper, etc. etc. I'm sure the list goes on –- suffices it to say that BSG needs these happy circumstances to establish its premises as does any other show (Star Trek included). The point is, however, all that the show has to do is to stay true to the premises it previously established –- and I think BSG has.



The discovery of the survivors on Caprica is a gigantic hole in the holocaust of humanity premise of the series. Survivors because they were in "the" mountains. If mountains were all it took to survive those nuclear explosions in the mini, a planet full of mountains means lots of survivors. ... Incidentally, there are no radiation meds that can prevent or heal damage from ambient radiation. Not even in the BSG universe. Because, you remember, radiation damage causes cancer, among other things. But: It is well established that the BSG universe, despite FTL and artifical gravity, cannot prevent or cure cancer. I suppose this means that the Caprica "survivors" are actually characters in a Cylon virtual reality training scenario! ...A couple of things here.

First, I agree with you that the apparent mutual trust between Kara/Helo and the band of star athletes seemed a bit strange, given the respective personal experiences of Kara and Helo, as well as what recounted by the said athletes. Your mocking of the survivors being characters in cylons’ training program might in fact not been too far off the mark, case in point being the acute observation by LoneStar. Methinks there are reasons other than their surviving skills at play here because, let’s face it, they are lousy shots and terrible strategists.

But the issue with radiation is not as clear-cut as you suggested. At least not to me. For instance, do we even know if the cylon attack was entirely nuclear? It is a common mistake to equate mushroom cloud with nuclear bomb, but I'm sure most of us are aware of the difference. Therefore, could the actual bombing be conventional, or neutron, or some combination thereof? Along this line of reasoning, high-altitude indeed helps one's chance of survival -- so long as most of these bombs were leveled against the cities -– and radiation level should drop fairly rapidly, even within the said cities.


Earlier in the series, Adama sent marines to help keep order on the ships. ... The whole mess is Adama's fault.This part is the good stuff -- my response in a separate post duely follows.


As usual, plot contortions are accompanied by bungled characterizations. The Doctor's assistance to the President is particularly thickwitted. ... Dualla's sudden discovery of Apollo ass is not quite so out of character. If you remember her few scenes, she is actually a very erratic character, to put it generously. ... Billy's turn against the president when he refuses to go with her to divide the fleet was foreshadowed. The problem is that he says this after he has already done everything she needed! ... Tigh's disintegration wasn't quite convincing either. I mean, a big part of the mini was how he rose to the occasion under stress. Now it's the opposite. There is a difference now, which is Ellen. This character is not inconsistent: We never knew what she wanted! But she is BAD. BSG's penchant for black and white characterization is in full flower here.Admittedly, I consider Doc Cottle a very peripheral character, whose function was not much beyond moving the plot forward and providing the occasional snark; as such, I hardly paid much attention to him. So, perhaps there is something to what you said about him. On the other hand, perhaps he was fed up with Tigh's rule just like a lot of the others, so much so that he takes perverse glee in antagonizing Tigh. Or perhaps in his medical opinion the hallucinogen in Chamalla(??) was not enough to impair Roslin's judgment – not that I personally believe that, but it was possible.

Dualla had a fairly consistent development as far as I could see, so perhaps I fail to spot the erratic behaviors you attributed to her characterization. The only time she behaved in a manner anywhere near "mean" was during a recent conversation with Billy; but there I thought she had ample cause to be mad at him. Yes, she said some stuff that was uncalled for, but who amongst us hasn't said something then immediately wished it unsaid? Her aiding and abetting Roslin's escape was not abrupt but with foreshadowing -– it had been clear, at least to me, that her loyalty to the command resided largely, oe perhaps even singularly, with The Old Man. (As a side, there have also been some telltale signs that she might be a cylon, but I'm not into the "guess who is cylon" game.)

I could see why Billy waited till the last minute to draw that proverbial line in the sand. His opposition to Roslin's arrow-retrieval plan was well-established in KLG, yet he stood by her during the standoff with the military. Though he always had reservations about Roslin's Chamalla use, he chose to get it for her when she was suffering from withdraw. He has great affection for Roslin's person as well as tremendous respect for her office, but he'd stop before the point of no return -- IMHO because deep down he did not believe in what she was doing. No big surprises there.

Though Tigh's downward spiral was a bit faster than I had liked, it was ultimately inevitable. A competent officer in all matters military, he lacks the temperament, political savvy, and respect for civilians to deal with the chores of governing. I see him as a personality in constant need of guidance by another stronger than him, which would explain his relationship with Ellen as well as that with Adama –- which in turn explains why he fell apart when Adama was not around. As for Ellen, I do agree that she fits every cliche of a "b**tch." ;)

(to be continued ... :D)

Liebestraume
August 10th, 2005, 06:57 PM
(cont'd ...)

I suppose one of the "fun" things about the episode was Baltar's little trick on Boomer. First, I don't think even the execution drugs kill so quickly. Second, there is no drug so easily, quickly and reliably reversed. Third, there's no brain stem death in ten seconds. Fourth, Baltar has no way of knowing that Boomer doesn't know this, or even understands it. Fifth, Baltar has no way of knowing that Boomer has any knowledge in her unconscious. Sixth, Baltar has no way of knowing that Boomer didn't just spout any old number, just to save the chief. Seventh, Baltar doesn't even know that Boomer had to override Cylon programming by sheer force of her love for the chief, since she may have just picked a number.

Despite all this, we may safely assume that this nonsense actually revealed true information. ...Who are "we"? Personally I never for a minute assumed what "we" apparently did.

I don't think the whole interrogation sequence should be taken at its face value, simply because doing so makes absolutely no sense. It has been known that there were 12 models, 4 of which have been exposed. That means there are still 8 unknown faces, and possibly copies of the other 4, among the entire fleet. Baltar knew this. Then why would he bother to ask?

I think he asked as part of the proposed experiment on Boomer. He didn't care what the answer was, or whether or not Boomer knew it. He wanted to know if cylons experiencing genuine emotions, how deep those emotions could run, and –- most importantly –- how to use it to his own advantage. I saw the whole scene as mostly about Baltar and how far along he'd come along since Kobol. And I thought it was well done.


... And, eighth, the chief should remember that Baltar said the detector actually worked. I doubt that he will for some reason, but Baltar couldn't know that.I fail to see the logical connection to your previous 7 points. On the one hand, it is not quite true -- Baltar did know that or, at least, counted on Tyrol believing it, because that was how he tricked Tyrol into letting him stick in that big needle. On the other hand, even if Tyrol could remember at the most inopportune moment, Baltar still could easily side-step the issue -- just like he did Tigh's questioning.


... The civilians killed were somehow not killed by an actual soldier, despite being in a relatively small corridor at close quarters. ... Can you say copout, children?Notwithstanding the amusing "children" remark, I didn't see that sequence as a copout at all. What happened there was good people doing stupid things while under duress, and it could very well happen in real life -- and it did. The soldiers who shot civilians need not be bad people; in fact, I'll argue it's a prime counterexample to the "black-and-white" characterization that you have been so eloquently raging against not so long ago.


The Ruby shooting Oswald scene at the end was also notable. There is no sensible reason for transferring a prisoner from a brig to a makeshift cell. There is no sensible reason for a mob to come out of nowhere, unless you think Adama was such a crap commander that none of his people have any discipline at all. Last, there is no point to a Ruby/Oswald reference. It's just pretention to meaning.I quite agree that the mob scene in the corridor was somewhat arbitrary -- one would think people serving aboard a battlestar should be better trained in military discipline. As to "pretension to meaning," however, who suggested the Ruby/Oswald reference in the first place?

I think there are two ways to view this. Number one, it could be another case of good people (i.e., Cally) doing stupid things under duress -- in which case, any attribution to Oswald (i.e., conspiracy) was entirely on the part of the individual viewer. And secondly (and conversely), if the reference was intended by TPTB, then the suggestion there would be Cally was a cylon -- in which case, there was no pretension for there was indeed meaning.


The bookend drops of blood on the deck are ambiguous. ...Perhaps, but why is that necessarily a deficiency? I actually like a show that leaves its viewers to draw their own conclusions, which again is what I like about this one (to answer your opening question).

As it happened in this case, the bookend blood drops did make me ponder, among other things, what made "us" human and "them" cylon. However, I did not "seize upon it as a sign" that this show actually address these issues. It merely made me think about them -- but that's enough for me.

Liebestraume
August 10th, 2005, 09:05 PM
Missed both showings as the result of being out of town, I've just had the chance to watch the episode. Ditto to all the good stuff being said up thread.

I'd like to pick up the discussions re military vs. civilian and Adama vs. Roslin. However, these are two separate issues, as neither character is wholly representative of either side.

Back in the mini, Roslin and Adama reached an agreement – he would be in charge of military operations, and she civilian affairs. It was a sensible compromise that utilizes the relative strength of each. Though trying their cooperation had been at times, it held and worked well till KLG. I think it was because till then they each genuinely believed in the practicality of the arrangement and duly honored it.

Fast-forward to KLG. By then Roslin had already discovered her spirituality. She believed in the prophecy and thought the only way to fulfill via a valuable military asset the use of which Adama already denied. Out of desperation, and perhaps a sense of righteousness, she manipulated Kara into running the errand.

Ever wary of leadership seized by religious fervor, I nevertheless believe Roslin was trying to do the right thing, and that she reached her decision through sound reasoning (as opposed to drug-induced hallucination). She needed to give the fleet a true sense of purpose -- for Adama knew not where Earth was (or even if it existed) –- and she thought the arrow would do that. She was aware of her role in the prophecy, as well as the fact that her time was running out. She truly believed in what she was doing and, as the president, had the authority to deploy military asset.

But I still think she made a mistake –- as a president –- to act upon a religious belief. She is supposed to be the president of an entire democracy which, if our world is any indication, would consist of atheists, agnostics, monotheists, or even people ascribing to different interpretations of the same scriptures. Would any of these people believe in what she was doing? And these people's opinions should matter to her, if for no other reason than the fact that what she was about to do would indeed endanger their lives.

I also think that was the only mistake she made, but Adama made it worse by making one of his own. Because his surrogate daughter was co-opted, he let his emotion impair his better judgment and summarily disposed the president. Perhaps he had fully intended to talk it over with Roslin once things (and himself) calmed down a little, but we'd never know because he got shot soon after. Although Tigh's ineptitude made matters infinitely worse, I still hold Adama –- who is among my favorite characters, if not the favorite -- accountable. Because he was the one who set the military wheels in motion, the one who put Tigh in a position of responsibility.

So now we have this apparently escalating conflict between military and civilian government as direct result of their respective leaders making poor choices. As a viewer, I found my loyalty surprisingly undivided. :eek: And not alone. :D
Ugh. I hate how this show is almost forcing me to take sides. I want to support both sides. I want my democracy, but right now my loyalties lie with the military, and Lee has really betrayed the military with this move....

One of the reasons, I think, is because military personnel, by and large, have been shown to great advantage up this point. This is in direct contrast to the civilian population, for the most part, felt like a bit of a nuisance. And, when I looked upon the Quorum of 12, I thought of Tom Zarek as the bright spot –- that was when I knew my priorities were totally messed up. :p

All kidding aside, though, I don't think the matter military-vs-civilian debate has an easy answer even if it's in the abstract. Being indoctrinated into the democratic principals since early ages, we are likely to equate civilian government with democracy and look upon military coup as trumping of liberty. But histories proves that this is not always the case.


And even our world is not just the U.S. I think if you are familiar with some of the totalitarian coutries in our world, you will think differently about the military in the sense how it is sometimes (ab)used by the persons in power as always that "nice". History does not always play out as it was in North America.

This is the reason why people have democracy.Yes, but there are also examples where a strong military served as the underpining of stability in the country, which although ostensibly democratic was verging on oligarchy or theocracy. So I think it's all in the context.

To bring it back on topic, I suspect many viewers –- despite of their loftier aspirations -- would find more sympathy for the military side now that Adama is up and walking about. The rest of the season should be very interesting.

keshou
August 10th, 2005, 09:05 PM
BSG has reached social pathology status for me. The plotting is contrived. The characterizations are black and white, with some GOOD and others BAD. They are also inconsistent. The holocaust of humanity premise that supposedly makes the show realistically gritty is violated in the grossest way, with more civilians shown on Caprica than in the fleet! what do you people like about the show?
Wow - you've got some major problems with the show. Don't think anything we say will change your mind and that's okay. You like what you like. But see Liebestraume's posts just above. Maybe she can convince you. ;) :)

All I can say is that ultimately I like a show because it entertains me, engages my emotions, makes me anxious to see what happens in the next episode to characters I've grown to love. I'm sure there are plot holes and nits to pick in every episode but I don't spend a lot of time dwelling on those - I just enjoy the fact this show engages me on every level.

*The characters. I think they're *anything* but black or white - in fact I'd say that's one of the main reasons I enjoy BSG. It's a character-driven show and I find the characters wonderfully complex. The heroes have flaws, the villains have layers.

*The theme. I'm a big fan of the apocalypse theme in scifi where a civilization is nearly destroyed and forced to start over. What - we've seen 50+ survivors on Caprica? I don't find that unbelievable. We know there are almost 50,000 people in this fleet. The fact we haven't "met" many of the civilians yet doesn't mean they aren't there. The focus of the show is on the military ship.

*The multi-episode story arcs. I can understand that others may get bored with stories that overlap several episodes - like we're seeing in the first part of S2 - but I love that style of story-telling. Sometimes things drag on too long but overall I think it allows them to give the stories a lot of depth. Events in one episode carry over and have real consequences in the next episode.

*The grittiness of the series. You may not find things to be very realistic but I do. At least they're admitting they have to find food and fuel to survive. I've also really enjoyed all the battle scenes. Messy, dirty business and I feel that when I watch the show.

*The mixing of politics, religion and scifi. Religion is such a big part of many civilizations and I appreciate that the writers are treating it with respect and as a major part of this fictional society.

*The villains. Honestly, the Cylons creep me out. The "toasters" - with those flashing eyes give me the willies. The human Cylons are both the ultimate evil and yet at times extremely sympathetic.

Mr. Seven
August 11th, 2005, 11:05 AM
I'm not sure if this was mentioned yet...

Did anyone notice that the marine on the left during Tyrol's interrogation/beatup scene was played by the same actor as the Marine who came through the Gate at the start of SGA: The Siege Part 2?

Having started watching a lot of SG-1 reruns it looks like there might only be about 50 actors in Vancouver to star on SCIFI shows ;)

entil2001
August 11th, 2005, 11:32 AM
A lot of plot threads come to a head in this episode, which is exactly the way I like it. The first six or seven episodes are supposed to let the consequences of the first season finale take their natural and inexorable course, and this is an important step in that direction. The President is finally out of prison and able to move against the military dictatorship that Tigh has established (intentional or not), Adama is back to pick up the pieces, and one of the Boomers has met an untimely end. All in all, a rather momentous episode.

So Adama is willing to let Tigh off the hook, claiming that command has more pressures than anyone can understand, and mistakes happen. Adama really has a blind eye in that regard. While it fits his character, one wonders how happy he’ll be when facing down a religious resistance movement with ties to a former convicted terrorist. Nothing comes easy on this series, given the fragile nature of their lives, and this is another shining example.

Does Adama figure that Tigh will learn his lesson through the process of fixing his mistakes? It’s more likely that the mistakes will be overshadowed by other concerns. I’m wondering just how much the Cylons are getting away with while the Colonials are focused on their own internal strife. After all, look at how much Baltar is able to get away with, and he’s one of the least trusted people in the fleet, as far as Tigh is concerned.

Speaking of Baltar, he takes a wonderfully dark turn in this episode. His gambit with Tyrol was rather evil, and it’s not at all clear what he intends to do with the information he acquired from Boomer (who could have been lying, for all that he knows). Baltar still sees himself as God’s instrument among the humans, and if that thinking continues to drive his actions, it could be nasty when his agenda is finally revealed. After all, Roslyn is going to be looking to someone to give her guidance to Earth, and Baltar is in the perfect position to play Judas.

Based on Ron Moore’s podcast, I’m not sure about Ellen Tigh anymore. I was leaning towards the possibility that she’s a Cylon as well, given how similarly she manipulates Tigh as Six manipulates Baltar. But that similarity could be reflective of another goal of the writing staff. Six has a clear agenda with Baltar, but Ellen’s actions are haphazard. Ellen and Saul Tigh are not far from the kind of self-defeating animals that the Cylons believe the humans are.

I love how Tyrol is forced to admit to himself that he really did love Boomer. This adds to Helo’s comments about his own Sexy!Boomer 2.0 back on Caprica. The humaniform Cylons, especially the ones programmed to believe that they are human, are able to slip right past the emotional defenses of their intended prey. That quality was one of the things being explored by the Cylons themselves in the first season, so it must be key to their ultimate plans. It adds more fuel to the speculation that the Cylons are trying to bring perfection to their own (flawed) creators by becoming more human themselves.

So what’s the situation on Galactica? Adama is back in action and ready to support Tigh, but he’s got to be aware that there’s an unknown number of his own people supporting Roslyn. Whatever trust was between Tyrol and Kally is probably out the window. Baltar is running his own operation, and somewhere in the fleet, Adama’s son has joined a movement with Roslyn that threatens to boil over into a civil war between military and religious factions. These people don’t need the Cylons to fire a shot!

Of course, it gives the writers plenty of time for Starbuck and Helo to gather a small task force of survivors (and likely red-shirts) on Caprica. Even money says that this task force will get Starbuck into a Cylon facility where their plans will be partially revealed, thus justifying her presence on the planet for so long. Will Sexy!Boomer 2.0 be there to, ready to be trussed up and taken back to Galactica, baby on board? Wouldn’t that just mesh with the Baltar plot thread on Kobol!

Honestly, I feel like I’m just touching on all the things I love about this episode. There were some minor things that bugged me: the riot and the standoff didn’t quite work for me. Then again, from the podcast, I gather that Ron Moore agrees on that account. It wasn’t enough, however, to take away from all the things I did like. The series is maintaining its high standard of quality, and I couldn’t ask for anything more.

LoneStar1836
August 11th, 2005, 12:51 PM
I’m hoping that Adama does not turn a blind eye to Tigh’s conduct (i.e. the drinking) because that is inexcusable, imo. His speech at the end of “Resistance” seems to be him accepting and understanding Tigh’s actual command decisions which I can see him not having much problem with (though I’m not sure if that was an informed commentary or not on his part), but I will be sadly disappointed if he doesn’t give Tigh a good chewing out about the drinking and reprimand him somehow. I’d strip him of his access to liquor & boot that wicked wife off Galactica. I doubt he’ll do that but I would. Though the wife would go out the airlock and not to another ship. :D



For those that have listened to RDM’s podcast for this episode, is it safe to listen to it after next week’s episode? I was reading on another board that he drops a big spoiler right in the middle of it so I have yet to listen to it since I don’t know what the spoiler pertains to.

LordHart
August 11th, 2005, 02:09 PM
The only thing in this episode I didn't like was the fact that they changed the name of Triad to Pyramid, which was the card game in the original... that is just odd. And seeing thats all I can say that I didn't like, thats great.

Perhaps we will begin to see regular Pyramid games in the fleet like in the original series, with a few colonial warriors making up the teams when Starbuck and the Buccaneers get back. Hell, anything to see the new Starbuck in that skimpy outfit that Dirk used to wear. :D

rosewood
August 11th, 2005, 02:42 PM
Ron Moore said in one of the Season 1 podcasts that the name changes of the card game and ball game got switched accidentally, and they didn't realize it until it was too late to fix.

I listened to all of Ron Moore's season 1 podcasts immediately after the show ran, and he did drop one or two upcoming episode spoilers unintentionally. For Season 2 I've been listening to them about a week later.

The only spoiler I recall (and I just listened to the podcast) for this episode is when RM talks about the fight between the soldiers and civilians over supplies and calls it the "Gideon Massacre" . That seems minor to me, and certainly nothing to ruin when I watch a future episode.

I think if anyone waited two weeks to listen from when an episode ran, they'd stay spoiler free. I love listening to his podcasts.

plot mechanic
August 11th, 2005, 02:56 PM
Jonisa, Easter Lily and kiwigater, among other remarks, don't seem to regard BSG as making claims to realism, in the usual sense of the word at any rate. How much that takes you out of your viewing pleasure is pretty much a matter of taste. No one seems determined to argue that the plotting is perfect. There merely seems to be a disagreement about how much of a flaw lapses in plot logic would be.

This is somewhat disconcerting. I devoted much space in a lengthy analysis to this because much of the buzz (to use the showbiz catchphrase) about this show does in fact make such claims. The impression that BSG honestly reflects the contemporary world, is absurd, with quite unpleasant implications. More than anything else, it's what turns BSG from just another show I don't like (and would just ignore) to something offensive that I feel should be refuted. Yet to read these responses, it seems that the fans are not drawing some of the same conclusions? Am I, to a certain extent, preaching against sin to the choir?

Well, sort of. Though it seems that most fans here do not confuse BSG with a profound commentary on current events, they do most certainly disagree with my contention that the characters are written as black and white. If I liked some of the characters I would rather play fill-in-the-plot-hole. If BSG weren't were so solemn/pompous, Ellen Tigh would be a glorious hoot. And Baltar would be a brilliant updating of Dr. Zachary Smith!

I am well aware that the characters have flaws. Starbuck's flaws are so multitudinous that she can tell whozis on Caprica that, basically, the end of humanity hasn't really changed anything for her! (Think back to that scene...that is what she is saying!) Yet, in addition to her universally acknowledged heroism, she is the worthy object of both Apollo's and Adama's love! Tigh's dislike for her is supposed to be the main indicator that he is a flawed character! I think that someone as neurotic as Starbuck would not be so universally loved. Yet the character is written that way. And that is one of the things I mean when I say characters are written black and white.

A similar example of a white character is the chief. Humanity is supposedly destroyed, the only resort is flight and this guy breaks off with his girfriend because some brass gives him an order? Is he thinking he'll get another girl friend next shore leave? Yet, the chief is written as one of the most empathetic characters. In "Fragged," the chief was arguing with the lieutenant about the necessity to attack the Cylons. Sort of, he didn't actually have any point to make other than it was dangerous. The lieutenant tells the chief to stay cool. Now, the chief wasn't actually thinking, so trying to think it through coolly was good advice. Yet it was the lieutenant who was written as agitated and the chief who was written as cool. And there's another one of the things I mean when I say characters are written black and white.

For a last example, look at Baltar. Skip over the bizarre contradictions in the storyline about whether Six is real or a psychogenic hallucination or a microchip hallucination. According to the mini, he did not intentionally betray humanity to the Cylons. He betrayed industrial secrets to a lover, for sex or money or both. Not the same thing. Since, he is both tantalized and tormented by Six. There is never a shred of pathos written for him in this situation (well, not in the episodes I've seen.) Losing your mind is not a sad thing? Maybe the series is waltzing around with some notion that bad people and crazy people are pretty much the same thing?

That should be enough on that topic.

Liebestraume's posts will require some thought, if you please.

pm

Liebestraume
August 11th, 2005, 09:07 PM
... I devoted much space in a lengthy analysis to this because much of the buzz (to use the showbiz catchphrase) about this show does in fact make such claims. The impression that BSG honestly reflects the contemporary world, is absurd, with quite unpleasant implications. More than anything else, it's what turns BSG from just another show I don't like (and would just ignore) to something offensive that I feel should be refuted. ...Am I reading it correctly that your "beef" is in fact less with the show itself but more with its reception by the so-called critics? If so, then your ire would appear to be mis-directed.

Notwithstanding hoards of "Reality TV," it is indeed absurd to expect any show accurately reflecting the contemporary world or portraying "positive role models" as some would contend in certain threads -- the primary function of television is (or should be) to entertain. When BSG seeks not to provide answers to the "weighty" issues but leaves its viewers to reach their own conclusion, it entertains on the cerebral level as well as on the visceral.

As for the critics calling BSG "profound commentary on current events," perhaps they are just using it as an excuse to push their own agenda. Or, better yet, they may just need some catch phrases to fill the space of their column. In any case, their opinions are no more (or less) valid than anyone else's; it's puzzling why anyone would ever let them dictate how he/she watches a show.

Easter Lily
August 11th, 2005, 10:06 PM
This is somewhat disconcerting. I devoted much space in a lengthy analysis to this because much of the buzz (to use the showbiz catchphrase) about this show does in fact make such claims. The impression that BSG honestly reflects the contemporary world, is absurd, with quite unpleasant implications. More than anything else, it's what turns BSG from just another show I don't like (and would just ignore) to something offensive that I feel should be refuted. Yet to read these responses, it seems that the fans are not drawing some of the same conclusions? Am I, to a certain extent, preaching against sin to the choir?
Well, I don't live in US and my impetus for watching BSG has nothing to do with the "buzz" or the "hype" or any extraneous media influence... I grew up watching the old series and was initially quite reluctant to watch this one because of the changes that I'd heard about. But people on this forum, whose opinions I know and respect told me how much they liked it so I began to come round to the idea And of course, watching Jamie Bamber in the Hornblower movies was the final push, as it were. ;)
I'm an old scifi fan from when I was 7... so my interest in BSG is largely along those lines. I don't watch much television and when I do I'm very selective. I like a bit of crime and scifi and have been known to stop watching shows when they degenerate into soapfests. But I love scifi because more than any other genre, it stretches the human imagination and demonstrates creativity in storytelling.
As far as I'm concerned there is always an element of television that is a commentary on contemporary events. That can be said of anything from The West Wing to The Simpsons. While that is true, it does not mean that everything about those shows reflect what happens to every single person on the planet. That would be impossible, of course. Our individual experience of life is just that... individual... This is also afterall, television, as Liebestraume has said. The whole point of the medium is to entertain. It is unashamedly escapist and it is a product to be sold and consumed. I don't think anyone who watches BSG avidly would be naive enough to think otherwise.

I have fond memories of our honeymoon... it was probably the best five days we've ever enjoyed together. We were pampered, entertained and extremely well-fed. It was, as the company who organized it was called,... a great escape. Once the five days were up, we had to leave... there was nothing normal about it but it was packaged with certain everyday realities like transportation, meals and a bedroom. It wasn't meant to replace real life... but it gave us a breather from real life and a rare opportunity to enjoy a little bit of luxury.



I am well aware that the characters have flaws. Starbuck's flaws are so multitudinous that she can tell whozis on Caprica that, basically, the end of humanity hasn't really changed anything for her! (Think back to that scene...that is what she is saying!) Yet, in addition to her universally acknowledged heroism, she is the worthy object of both Apollo's and Adama's love! Tigh's dislike for her is supposed to be the main indicator that he is a flawed character! I think that someone as neurotic as Starbuck would not be so universally loved. Yet the character is written that way. And that is one of the things I mean when I say characters are written black and white.


Well, that's purely speculation on your part and finally an opinon... unless of course, you've done a survey on all the neurotic people in the world and their families and can prove for a fact that someone like Starbuck would be so disliked. I'm not even sure I agree with your definition of neurotic either... It is one thing to say that "I dislike Starbuck because she's XYZ" but it's another to assume that 6 billion other people on the planet ought to share your sentiments.

I'm also some what confused by your definition of "black and white". When I use the term "black" and "white"... I mean cut and dried... a clear delineation between what is good and what is bad or "right" or "wrong". What you seem to be talking about are archetypes... but even then, I'm not sure I agree with that either.

I also wonder that perhaps you have a rather rose-coloured view of what heroes are. I think of what one character in Firefly says to another, "Every person who has had a statue of him put up was one kind of a son of a b**** or another". Heroes are people too... they may do heroic acts and save lives but it doesn't mean that their motives are always pure or they always do the right things either.

A similar example of a white character is the chief. Humanity is supposedly destroyed, the only resort is flight and this guy breaks off with his girfriend because some brass gives him an order? Is he thinking he'll get another girl friend next shore leave? Yet, the chief is written as one of the most empathetic characters. In "Fragged," the chief was arguing with the lieutenant about the necessity to attack the Cylons. Sort of, he didn't actually have any point to make other than it was dangerous. The lieutenant tells the chief to stay cool. Now, the chief wasn't actually thinking, so trying to think it through coolly was good advice. Yet it was the lieutenant who was written as agitated and the chief who was written as cool. And there's another one of the things I mean when I say characters are written black and white.
I'm supremely confused by the point that you're trying to make here. Isn't the fact that it was a foolhardy, dangerous attempt to subdue the enemy an important enough point in itself? Tyrol was pointing out the suicidal nature of it... and considering the fact that out of the five of them, only 2 of them were really proficient with firearms. Crash was unrealistic... he didn't account for the level of people's fear and didn't even try to deal with it. He didn't exactly inspire confidence. He was also being illogical by saying that they owed it to those recently dead to strike but didn't explain why. But at the end of the day, Tyrol still supported Crash as the ranking military officer in spite of his misgivings and got everyone else to do the same.
What you're talking about here is not just characterization, but expressing a point of view. From your point of view, you saw something... others see it differently. I don't see Crash any less sympathetically than Tyrol. I am sorry for Crash because he wasn't cut out for command and under pressure, he cracked. He wasn't exactly evil incarnate... but he made the choices that he did based on his experiences. We've seen Tyrol blunder his way in his relationship with Boomer but here we see why his people respect him. I don't think it is that black and white...


For a last example, look at Baltar. Skip over the bizarre contradictions in the storyline about whether Six is real or a psychogenic hallucination or a microchip hallucination. According to the mini, he did not intentionally betray humanity to the Cylons. He betrayed industrial secrets to a lover, for sex or money or both. Not the same thing. Since, he is both tantalized and tormented by Six. There is never a shred of pathos written for him in this situation (well, not in the episodes I've seen.) Losing your mind is not a sad thing? Maybe the series is waltzing around with some notion that bad people and crazy people are pretty much the same thing?
I haven't particularly found Baltar all that interesting until at the end of Fragged where he realises the enormity of what he's done. Six tells him that "I'm so proud of you Gaius"
"Why, because I've taken a life?"
"Because that makes you human"
"Is it? Not conscious thought, poetry, art, music, literature... Murder..."

I thought that that was a moment dripping with pathos...

plot mechanic
August 12th, 2005, 08:05 AM
Liebestraume, please forgive the delay.

The suggestion that Gaeta was less than honest is wonderfully acute. Strictly speaking, Tigh should already know the Galactica's tracking abilities but still...good save!

Adama began the violence, when he sent gunmen to seize Roslin. Bloodshed while resisting this violence therefore could not have started anything fundamentally different. Although Roslin still would have ended up in the brig, the democratic cause would not have been demoralized. Which it would have been, because nothing is as demoralizing as surrendering without a fight. There have been many causes that came back from even a onsided defeat. Offhand, I can't think of any that come back after chickening out. The real political question is, who organized the fleet boycott? Whoever did that is the real leader now, not Roslin. (Zarek, maybe?) Roslin coming out of the closet as the dying leader, if anything, should be portrayed more as an effort to regain the leadership position she had thrown away.

As to the relevance of her gender, that is just a suggestion. But, suppose Roslin had acted like Adama, demanded his resignation, then upon Adama's refusal sent two of those previously detached Marines to arrest him. Adama, fearing bloodshed that threatens the fleet, surrenders and is transported to a makeshift brig on Colonial One. Do you think it would be so easily assumed that Adama was correct to do this? Incidentally, the easy way people enter or leave spaceships implies that doors don't have locks. Yeah, right.

There "is" a reference to tyllium refining in the episode. Despite this, the fact is that there is no tyllium. This is a simple deduction from elementary chemistry. Accepting that premise means willfully overlooking nonsense. On the other hand, there is antimatter. Trek never quite explains (in all those years!) where the antimatter comes from. While accepting that there's some handwaving "explanation" of how it's economically produced may be generous, it's not deliberately ignoring outright impossibility. Your rationale about stocks of food is good. And don't forget that they supposedly loaded up at the crazy whirlpool place too. Nonetheless, they can't recycle food, unlike air or water. They can't grow new food. They surely can't have an indefinite supply of food. They don't have the equipment, like seed, to start a new colony. Which means, there is a time limit on the fleet's existence. After that, they die.

The hope that "Earth" is one of the times when scripture is history, instead of myth, may be a feeble straw. But it's their only hope. Not only does Adama have no plan, he doesn't act like he understands the situation! Yet, he is written as the wise Old Man, smarter and deeper than everyone. (Another example of black and white characterization. If he wasn't written that way, his coup would perceived as a dramatic overreaction to the seduction of his great love, Starbuck.) The Adama/Starbuck/Apollo triangle is intact. Tigh has Ellen. (I must admit that in a comedy or soap Ellen would be a delightful villain.)The chief threw away his girlfriend, but that was his choice. And Roslin's dying anyhow, so whatever she's lost was going anyhow. I don't know if Helo is really a main character, but certainly he wasn't heading for home to see if by some miracle someone he loved survived. Other military personnel sleep their regular bunks, and get up to do their regular jobs. The reality of the holocaust of humanity is simply not present. It's simply talked about, as a justification for some of the meanness (an unfortunate parallel with reality that does hold up, I'm afraid.) The civilian population is just not shown!

The characters are supposed to motivated by a dire situation threatening not just personal survival, but the very existence of humanity. Yet that "reality" according to the show's own premises just isn't on screeen. What's up? I hope at least people can see how that perception rather puts one off BSG. As I see it, generally, the show is not staying true to its premises.

As to the survivors on Caprica, that weird harsh yellow light is supposed to show the radiation! It makes no sense, but, still. BSG's wacky radiation meds bother me not just because they're hard to swallow. Their existence contradicts the inability to prevent or treat cancer. That's a very specific example of not staying true to the premises.

As a medical man, Cottle's endorsement of Roslin says she's mentally competent. But the withdrawal scenes contradicted this. I still say this is thickheaded. I thought Dualla alternated between barking at Billy, as in the mini, and jumping him. Seemed erratic to me. Actually, an erratic character is no problem. There are some flighty people about. The thing about Billy is that he didn't wait until the point of no return! Roslin's escape was the point of no return. Hanging around to be interrogated about Roslin's whereabouts and plans is just stupid. It is now official: Billy is a pinhead.


I don't think the whole interrogation sequence should be taken at its face value, simply because doing so makes absolutely no sense.... He wanted to know if cylons experiencing genuine emotions, how deep those emotions could run, and –- most importantly –- how to use it to his own advantage. I saw the whole scene as mostly about Baltar and how far along he'd come along since Kobol. And I thought it was well done.

Our biggest difference here is that I really, truly believe that BSG is so badly written that the scene is in fact senseless. I'm afraid you're grasping for straws trying to find a different motive for him. Since Boomer only had to spout a number, he found out nothing about the intensity of Cylon emotions. And I have no clue how any of this could be to his advantage, except if the information is somehow true. The scene is supposed to show the new, manly Baltar finding out this valuable piece of informationby any means necessary. And he does so to refurbish his reputation. Personally, I find the idea that shooting a man in the back will suddenly turn Baltar into a man both silly and nasty. Obviously other people feel differently. I find the idea that he got valid information absurd for the reasons I already listed. Your objection that Baltar is properly confident that he can sidestep any problems from his admission to the chief that the test worked may be right.

The Mr. Rogers impression had no intended implications about viewers. I'm not sure how I can explain the visual references. They are visual, after all. Believe me: Separate shots of guns firing and people falling in the relatively close quarters makes no visual sense, except to whitewash the soldiers. I must say that here is a real question of outright dishonesty, not just incompetence, on the part of the producers.

Similarly, believe me: The Boomer shooting scene itself was a blatant reference to Oswald/Ruby. Reading it as a hint that Cowardly may be a Cylon relies on equating Boomer with Oswald-as-patsy-silenced-by-conspirator and Cowardly with Ruby-as-hired-hitman-taking-a-fall. There's no doubt about Boomer's guilt. And the episode shows Cowardly's motives, which are pretty explicable.

The pretense at real emotion relies on stealing a famous scene. The vague presentiment of signifance is pretentious. (And "pretention" is not a word splitting the difference between pretense and pretentious! :D The cat walked over the keyboard! :D Really! :D )

As for the bookending drops of blood:
It merely made me think about them -- but that's enough for me. The thing is that some of these characters should notice that the human form Cylons look and act like people, and therefore may be people of a sort. The one or two occasions that this happens, a star shuts them up. In what should be an infamous scene, Starbuck corrects Helo about his stupid misunderstanding of the experience of weeks of contact in what, three minutes of dialogue? This question in my opinion is not just one for ironic hints, but one to actually dramatize.

I remember a quote from David Eick that the series was supposed to make you wonder whether you're rooting for the right side. I suppose he's thinking about Adama/Roslin. And I fear he's thinking people would be wrong to root for Roslin/democracy. But there's nothing to suggest the Cylons have any right to their side.

There are a few vague references to human failings. I'm sorry, but without any content this is just some angsty tripe. At most it's some sort of presumption of original sin. This may be sound conservative ideology but conveniently leaves everything unchanged. The idea sheds no light, despite the high honor in which it's held. Now, if the series said that the Cylons were actually programmed by humans to exterminate one of the Colonies, then the Cylons simply extended it to all humans for the simple reason that there is no difference...now, that would carry some impact. Of course, that's just one example.

As is, I don't feel that BSG honestly confronts anything dark. It's just mean. And I don't care for it.

Thanks for the careful and courteous consideration. I don't know if I'll watch the revolution continued. Political ideas expressed in commercial TV are a personal interest, but BSG is a hard slog. May you all enjoy.

pm

sharky277
August 12th, 2005, 08:43 PM
Honestly, who do you think you are? Some mesiah here to deliver us from the evil that is BSG? If you don't like it don't watch it and don't post here about how much you don't like it and that there's nothing good about it at all. If your trying to impress us with your impression knowledge of plots and so on, please don't. And if we wanted it to mirror reality exactly, we would watch reality TV. We watch the show to enjoy it and think about its characters and what makes it so good compared to other shows. And other people who do say bad things about the show, usually find enough good things to keep watching and enjoy it. You however just berate everthing in the show. We like the show, and nothing you will say will ever divert us from that fact. Period.

LoneStar1836
August 12th, 2005, 11:08 PM
There "is" a reference to tyllium refining in the episode. Despite this, the fact is that there is no tyllium. This is a simple deduction from elementary chemistry. Accepting that premise means willfully overlooking nonsense.Boy, now that is a nitpick. Man oh man. That is some difficult “nonsense” to overlook. You just totally ruined my enjoyment of the show. ;) Hmmm…..I can’t seem to recall the episode in which Baltar gave us the lowdown on the exact chemistry behind tillium ore so I guess it can’t exist then. Thanks for pointing that out.

Plot mechanic, why torture yourself by watching the show? Save yourself the frustration and turn the channel when BSG comes on. Though I think you have finally talked yourself into doing just that. ;)


Sharky, calm down. :) If plot mechanic of anyone else wants to watch the show and rip it apart, I don’t have any problem with that. They are the ones having to suffer through the show, not me. Let’s don’t start telling people that they can only post certain opinions, and if they don’t match yours or mine, then they should leave and not post. If plot mechanic or anyone else wants to harshly criticize BSG, just ignore his/her posts if they upset you. :)

Liebestraume
August 13th, 2005, 09:14 AM
As I see it, generally, the show is not staying true to its premises.I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but, again, I strongly disagree.

I'll grant you the civilian population has not got much screen time -- a point I've already made in a different context in a prior post. However, this show is not called Apocalypse Now or some such -- it is called Battlestar Galactica for a reason. Making a sweeping generalization of it not staying true to its premises simply based on the lack of civilian presence is indeed grasping for straws. And, on a lighter side, I am not so sure I want to see more civilian presence on screen, if the general appearence of the 12 Quroum members is anything to go by :p.

Your objection to "tyllium" -- in connection with the Trek reference -- seems inconsistent. For at least two reasons. First of all, do you know that petroleum actually exists in crystalline form even on this very earth? The only reason we don't hear much about it is because the refining technology is prohibitively expensive in comparison to that of the liquid form. So, something akin to "tyllium" does exist; it's just known by a different name in our universe. And, secondly, since you are into details, I'd like to point out that srtickly speaking antimatter is not fuel even in the Trek universe. Trek actually uses something called dilithium (and trilithium) as fuel; now, does that exist?

As for "weird harsh yellow light is supposed to show the radiation" -- again, "supposed to" according to whom? The radioactive ray that a nuclear fission process releases is, according to physics, beyond visual range. A logical explanation for the "weird harsh yellow light" would have been light refraction by the unusal amount of dust and debris, and perhaps the general lack of greenery, brought on by the aerial and/or ground assult. The color has nothing to do with radiation.

Now that we have (most of) the petty details out of the way, let's look at the characterization. First up, Adama.
(Another example of black and white characterization. If he wasn't written that way, his coup would perceived as a dramatic overreaction to the seduction of his great love, Starbuck.) Funny you said that, for I've been saying -- ever since KLG aired here in the states -- that his paternal love for Kara is what impaired his better judgment, and that it could be traced all the way back to YCGHA. When emotions are not involved, he has been shown to be a very rationale thinker. So, not so black-and-white, eh?


And I have no clue how any of this could be to advantage, except if the information is somehow true.The part of my post you didn't quote said the verity of that information was IMHO irrelevant. You and I agree that Baltar is a self-serving man; the fleet might want to know how many cylon agents were out there, but not Baltar. He was just looking for an angle to give himself an upper hand against cylons, who had appeared pretty invincible up till this point. Seems pretty in-character there.

I'll skip over discussion of minor characters in favor of low word-count ;). Now on to the weightier stuff. Here we believe we have a genuine difference in opinion.

Take, for example, the "what makes us human" issue. I actually like how the show only alludes to, or gently touches upon, it every once in a while. Heavy-handed dramatization would surely turn me off, because -- generally speaking -- I detest shows that espousing a certain POV or pushing an agenda. Open-minded I may be, but not so much so as to not being able to make up my own mind. If, after much delibration, a view still comes to the conclusion that we are "us" and they are "them," it should be ok.

And the same thing goes for the Adama/Roslin conflict. Personally I don't believe there is a "right" side so my understanding of David Eick's comment emphasizes on the word "wonder" -- the process of coming to my own conclcusions is a reward in itself. I suppose "political ideas expressed in commercial TV" are just not my cup of tea. Even in the hay days of West Wing, I had a higher appreciation for its sharp wit than for any of the political babble.

That being said, I disgree with your assessment of political situation aboard Colonial One.
Adama began the violence, when he sent gunmen to seize Roslin. [B]Bloodshed while resisting this violence therefore could not have started anything fundamentally different. Although Roslin still would have ended up in the brig, the democratic cause would not have been demoralized. Which it would have been, because nothing is as demoralizing as surrendering without a fight. There have been many causes that came back from even a onsided defeat. Offhand, I can't think of any that come back after chickening out.I highlight the part about bloodshed because I strongly believe it could have. Had Roslin "sticked up for herself," whose blood do you think would have been shed? Ty's? Lee's? Or that of some innocent marine, whose worst possible offense was perhaps misguided loyalty to their sworn duty? "Give me Liberty, or give me death" is a fine and noble ambition, so long as the death one dares is one's own.

And, if a cause could be demoralized -- to the point of never being able to make a comeback -- by the apparent failing of a single leader, then perhaps the said cause indeed deserve its fate.

plot mechanic
August 15th, 2005, 11:26 AM
Having difficulty posting.

plot mechanic
August 16th, 2005, 10:36 AM
Having difficulty posting.

Reviewing the thread, I see I missed Keshou's post. My apologies.


It's a character-driven show and I find the characters wonderfully complex. The heroes have flaws, the villains have layers.

Nor am I going to change your mind. The point of these in depth discussions are not to change people's minds, at least not for the people posting. (The ego gets invested, after all.) The point is to enrich the understanding. If you say you find the characters complex in response to my observation that they are black-and-white, then I try to see if if there's a misunderstanding or where the error is.

I allege heroes are written white, you counter they are written with flaws. Well, I never meant to imply that the heroes are written like Dudley Do-right. But in BSG the heroes are written so that any "flaws" are 1.)not actually flaws or 2.)carefully balanced with virtues and/or good intentions or 3.)flaws without genuine consequences, making them merely occasions for cheap thrills or 4.)only certain kinds of flaws, which are almost never genuinely offensive and 5.)the way the scenes are written just makes them seem nicer.

Examples of #1: Adama's willingness to sacrifice fuel reserves for his great love; Tigh's contempt for civilians (I'm afraid I'm quite certain than most BSG fans like this, as they were meant, too, but I am well aware that some don't); Starbuck's promiscuity; Apollo's resentment against his father.

Examples of #2: Tigh is a competent XO instead of a useless sycophant who's only there because he's not threat to the boss; Adama's love for Starbuck is paternal. This is such a stupid idea I think people would laugh at it if it was in a contemporary or recent setting! But it's in scifi, a genre in which things don't have to make sense, supposedly;
Apollo has no thought of taking command himself; the chief only lies to protect someone else (ditto!); Roslin only wants to save the people, not save her soul/gain immortal fame/earn a miracle by doing the will of the gods; Apollo's foolish good opinion of Zarek is instantly cured, to be replaced by the proper awareness of his irredeemable villainy.

Examples of #3: Adama lies to the fleet about knowing where Earth is, but only Starbuck ever asks him, even though information is vitally needed by many people so they can make plans; Roslin doesn't expose Adama as a liar; Starbuck gets away with her bad temper; Starbuck doesn't have any dumped lovers who hate her guts; Both Apollo and Adama forgive her for falsifying the brother's flight test, getting him into a program he couldn't handle and killed; Everyone believes everything Starbuck says to them, despite her being hotheaded and badtempered and pretty obviously screwed up; nobody's afraid of Adama because he's a mean, autocratic SOB, but loves him; Adama overthrows the government but gets shot so he doesn't have to do any of the nasty stuff that automatically ensues as a consequence; the chief might have fragged the lieutenant, but it was actually Baltar.

Examples of #4: No white character displays Baltar's cringing kind of fear, only fear that they valiantly try to suppress; no white character stutters or stammers or hems or haws like Baltar; No white character is greedy; No white character is lazy; No white character is personally ambitious; No white character lies for his personal benefit.

Examples of #5: Adama is nicer than Hadrian, who is obviously mean, and motivated by malice; the chief is nicer than the lieutenant who gets fragged; despite the holocaust of humanity, only Baltar is twitchy; Apollo never seems condescending, not even to the convicts; Starbuck's promiscuity is not written like Ellen's sluttiness. Incidentally, in my opinion that last is plain as day, but hard to explain in words. But it might be the simplest example of what I mean by saying black and white.

The human villains on BSG are Sgt. Hadrian, Ellen Tigh, Tom Zarek and Gaius Baltar. I don't anyone would argue that they have many layers. Only Baltar gives even an impression of complexity.

But Baltar is a notable example of being written black, in the crudest ways, precisely to avoid any genuine complexity. He's twitchy, shifty, stammers, shows undignified fear. His sexuality is depicted as cool, but comic or even gross. Visually he doesn't even get to have sex with Starbuck (who's screwing Apollo in her mind)! As far as I know he has no other relation to any one. He doesn't react to Gaeta's friendliness. He never calls Six by the name he must have know her by for years on Caprica! No one else notices his obvious distress! Amazingly enough, he's the only one with an accent! That last is an incredibly crude marker, but again, I don't think you can legitimately accuse BSG of sophisticated writing.

The amazing thing is, whether Six is a chip, or an hallucination, or some sort of demonic infestation, Baltar is the least culpable BSG character, since he is not a genuinely free moral agent. In truth, he is a pathetic character. His struggle against his chip or demon or madness could have been tragic. Instead, we just get a Villain, marked as such by crude and arbitrary writing.
The role and performance is a "gritty" updating of Jonathan Harris' Dr. Zachary Smith! Baltar could be a villain because he thinks he could reprogram the Cylons to serve his own goals. This might be crude but makes sense. Or he might be a genuine convert, since the series insists on this bizarre religious angle. Making Baltar a cypher means there is no character with a different perspective on the Cylons. This lessens the real drama, something which BSG avoids like the plague.

It is not a bit obvious what Baltar wants. Nor is there any discernible logic in his actions. How could he achieve his goals, whatever they may be? In a genuinely character-driven drama, in my opinion, either the drama is about the character's struggle to achieve his or her goals, or its about how they choose goals. Neither applies to Baltar. The dispiriting thing is this is actually true of most of the main characters!

Starbuck presumably is to choose between Adama and Apollo, but despite her intense self absorption, she has so little sel funderstanding that she does not see this. She is fundamentally passive. It appears instead that fake "development" about how she's special will be substituted. In my opinion, that decidedly limits the drama. Adama wants both Starbuck and his son's love. Yet, he takes no action towards his goals! That definitely limits the drama. Roslin is the closest to a genuine character, who wants something and acts in some fashion to get it, or at least actually chooses not to do certain things.

But in my opinion one character is not enough to hail as a landmark in drama.

pm

LoneStar1836
August 16th, 2005, 02:21 PM
Enjoyed reading your post, pm. :) I still disagree with you on some points in this one (but not nearly as much as that crazy nitpick about the tillium :P) but you do raise good points to think about regarding the characters so thanks for taking the time to explain them (with examples) because before I just wasn’t clear about your characterization of “black and white”. “Black and white” to me means really simplistic and cut and dry as to where they stand, especially in regards to morality and doing the right thing.

Example of #2: Adama's love for Starbuck is paternal. This is such a stupid idea I think people would laugh at it if it was in a contemporary or recent setting! But it's in scifi, a genre in which things don't have to make sense, supposedlyHonestly I’m quite confused by what you are saying there. It’s stupid to think that an older man (obviously at least her father's age) can’t love someone not of his own blood as if she were his own daughter? You’re going to have to clarify what you meant there by that second sentence. I think the idea is plausible rather than laughable even in our own society (excluding all those old men who run around marring women half their age :P)

Example of #3: Starbuck gets away with her bad temperYeah her temper is overlooked but it’s because they need her skills as a pilot. Tigh did toss her in the brig in the mini for slugging him. Are you getting at that her temper does not result in bad choices that lead to a costly mistake for the fleet or are you just saying that she is never called on the carpet for her temper? So what consequences would you like to see involving her bad temper?
Example of #3: Starbuck doesn't have any dumped lovers who hate her gutsProbably because they are all dead so how do we know if they didn't hate her or not. :D Well except for pretty boy down on Caprica, but his days are numbered. I wouldn’t exactly call Baltar a “dumped lover”. That was a one night stand.
Example of #3: Both Apollo and Adama forgive her for falsifying the brother's flight test, getting him into a program he couldn't handle and killedWhile I think the revelation to Adama made for a good episode, they did kind of move on rather easily afterwards, especially Adama. Though Lee did learn about it during the mini and had a longer time to come to terms with it even though this episode was only something like 15 days since the events of the mini. While I’d imagine that would be a difficult thing to overcome in both their relationships with Kara, people have been forgiven for worse deeds in RL and it wasn’t like she was a complete stranger that had done this. Both men cared for her and weren’t willing yet to just throw that away because of what she had done and then lying to them about it. The Farm If Adama can contemplate whether or not he still cares for Boomer, a Cylon, whom he knew for two years and then one day shoots him, I think its safe to assume that he is capable of forgiving (maybe not completely) Kara for “killing” his son. I think the three of them will always have that between them, and references/conflict revolving around that will probably pop up once in a while in the show so the event won’t totally be forgotten or I’m guessing it won’t since it is a major tragedy shared by all three.
Example of #3: Everyone believes everything Starbuck says to them, despite her being hotheaded and badtempered and pretty obviously screwed upAre you saying that people shouldn’t believe her because she could be lying? Or they shouldn't believe her because she doesn’t know what the hell she is doing so they shouldn’t blindly follow her because she is an angry person?
Example of #3: nobody's afraid of Adama because he's a mean, autocratic SOB, but loves himWhile I wouldn’t characterize the man that way, I think he has done plenty in the past to earn the respect and admiration of his crew. Why should his crew be afraid of him? I think they realize the man is not perfect, he is human after all, but he is not devoid of love for his own crew. He doesn’t run and hide in his quarters when off duty and he doesn’t run for the nearest foxhole that is farthest from the frontlines when the going gets tuff. (I’m thinking of Lt. Dike who replaced Captain Winters in the mini-series "Band of Brothers" when they were entrenched in the forest during the Battle of the Bulge. The guy would hide in his foxhole well off the front line rather than lead his men and make decisions and thus it was left up to Sgt. Lipton to do the actual seeing to the men, making decisions, etc. Then when it came to lead the assualt on the town, he froze and was totally inept. Winters, who was watching all this from the tree line because he had been promoted to Captain, wanted to run down to his men and take control because it tore him up that his people were being cut to shreds. So he called upon Lt. Speirs of another company to run down and relieve that Lt. Sorry, I just love that mini....but I don't have a thing for details since I had to go back and look up everyones' rank.....) I think Adama is like Captain Winters. The men of Easy Company respected and admired the man to the highest degree because he had earned their respect.
Example of #5: Starbuck's promiscuity is not written like Ellen's sluttiness. Incidentally, in my opinion that last is plain as day, but hard to explain in words. But it might be the simplest example of what I mean by saying black and white.Good example. BUT I think it has to do with Ellen is married, Starbuck is not. Plus, Ellen is written like the b*tch that she is so cheating on her husband is, in my opinion, more frowned upon than being single and promiscuous. While I don’t condone either behavior, I do view someone who sleeps around while they are married as more of a scumbag/tramp than someone who is single. So personally, I don’t quite equate the activities of both women as equally vilifiable. One is committing a lesser crime. So yes Starbuck’s sleeping around is not seen as a really despicable character trait in comparison with Ellen, it may also have to do with how people view that. RDM did say that he was taking Starbuck and doing kind of gender reversal thing with her by giving her a lot of traits that are characteristically given to the male heroes of a show. When single men sleep around, it’s generally viewed as a conquest for them and people generally don’t see anything wrong with that. “Oh he’s the stud of the show, who wouldn’t want to sleep with him?” When it’s a woman doing the same thing…. “oh, she’s a slut”.
He never calls Six by the name he must have know her by for years on Caprica!Excellent point. I never thought about that.
No one else notices his obvious distress!I think they notice but they just chalk it up to him being eccentric and a little crazy so he gets a pass and never gets questioned for it. Who knows what people say behind his back…..
Amazingly enough, he's the only one with an accent! That last is an incredibly crude marker, but again, I don't think you can legitimately accuse BSG of sophisticated writing.We don’t know exactly which colony he came from I don’t think, so maybe people on one of the colonies we rarely hear about have an accent or he’s from a different part of Caprica. It’s not that much of a stretch of the imagination. Just look at the U.S. Get some one from Boston with an authentic Boston accent and stand them next to some one from the southern Louisiana area known as Acadiana – the heart of Cajun country and then stand them next to Edward James Olmos. There will be a marked difference, yet they are all Americans. I know supposedly all these people originated from Kobol, but language and dialects do change over time.

ETA: Ah, now I think I see what you are saying about the accent and how it makes him stick out. Hmm….well I wouldn’t think that is an intentional thing. The actor whom they picked for the part just happened to be British so they let him keep the accent. I don’t think they intentionally went around looking for someone with a different accent for Baltar, but then again I have no idea if they did or didn’t but I’m thinking no. They just liked the actor so they let him keep the accent. I can see why they had JB change his accent in order to match up with EJO since he was supposed to be playing his son.

Interesting stuff there about Baltar in the rest of your post, but at the moment I don’t feel like really responding to much more of it.
Starbuck presumably is to choose between Adama and Apollo, but despite her intense self absorption, she has so little self-understanding that she does not see this. She is fundamentally passive. It appears instead that fake "development" about how she's special will be substituted. In my opinion, that decidedly limits the drama. Interesting. But why should she have been forced to make a decision before or even think about choosing between the two? I can see now why in next week’s episode that she will be forced to make a decision regarding the two men, but why before then?
Adama wants both Starbuck and his son's love. Yet, he takes no action towards his goals!The man is not very forceful when it comes to the personal relationships. It’s more subtle. He has taken action to gain Lee’s affection. It’s moreso in what he says though than what he does. He supports Lee and gives him little reassurance now and then. He reminds him that he is his son and that he will always love him for that. “Hand of God” provides great examples of him showing that he loves Lee – he tells Lee that he couldn’t think of a better pilot to lead the mission when Lee tells him that it seems like everyone else believes that Starbuck should be lead pilot. In the episode in which they are searching for Starbuck when her Viper crashed, he tells Lee that if that were him out there, he would never stop looking. He’s willing to spend time with Lee – boxing. He even points out a character flaw that comes back to bite him in the butt. Sometime words do speak louder than actions.

As far as showing his love towards Kara. I don’t think you have to look much past his forgiveness of her for her involvement in Zak’s death.

He can’t make these people love him. He can only show them that he cares deeply for them and hope they reciprocate the feeling.

Again thanks for your post. :) Hey, everyone has an opinion, that’s what makes the world interesting as well as this board. :D

BTW did you watch this week’s episode cause even I had a lot of little nitpicks about the plot in that one, so I know you must have if you did watch it.

FeloniousMonk
August 16th, 2005, 02:37 PM
When single men sleep around, it’s generally viewed as a conquest for them and people generally don’t see anything wrong with that. “Oh he’s the stud of the show, who wouldn’t want to sleep with him?” When it’s a woman doing the same thing…. “oh, she’s a slut”.
Well that little social construct is a result of sheer biology. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that double standards are in any way right or justified, but this is one of the few that weren't simply created by boys so we could have more fun or get paid better. The idea of a promiscuous woman being frowned upon while a promiscuous man being applauded stems from how our reproductive systems work.

Let's say you have a group of a particular species which requires 9 months to gestate and the result is usually one offspring, occassionally two, very rarely more. A single female can only be impregnanted so many times in the course of a decade while a single male can impregnante a massive number of females over the same time period. In the end, the sexually active female won't contribute to the species (in terms of population growth) as much as the sexually active male.


I realize there are a lot of girls on this forum so I hope this doesn't offend anyone :p And again, I'm not saying these double standards are right to keep around this day and age, my point is just that they're not unbased. There's a reason for this double standard and we must all remember that instinct will win out over society every time.

Liebestraume
August 16th, 2005, 06:22 PM
... There's a reason for this double standard and we must all remember that instinct will win out over society every time.What do you mean by ..."instinct will win out over society every time"? Isn't the advancement of human civilization proof positive that at least some of us are able to overcome our baser instincts?

M82SoCalif
August 16th, 2005, 06:41 PM
Your objection to "tyllium" -- in connection with the Trek reference -- seems inconsistent. For at least two reasons. First of all, do you know that petroleum actually exists in crystalline form even on this very earth? The only reason we don't hear much about it is because the refining technology is prohibitively expensive in comparison to that of the liquid form. So, something akin to "tyllium" does exist; it's just known by a different name in our universe. And, secondly, since you are into details, I'd like to point out that srtickly speaking antimatter is not fuel even in the Trek universe. Trek actually uses something called dilithium (and trilithium) as fuel; now, does that exist?


Just an itty bitty FYI - Strickly speaking anti-matter is the fuel used by the Federation (and most other Star Trek races) to operate their starships. Dilithium is a fictional crystal used to efficiently absorb the matter/anti-matter reaction. This of course doesn't take away from your arguement at all - the fuel source of Star Trek is just as fictional as the fuel used in BSG.

Liebestraume
August 16th, 2005, 07:39 PM
Just an itty bitty FYI - Strickly speaking anti-matter is the fuel used by the Federation (and most other Star Trek races) to operate their starships. Dilithium is a fictional crystal used to efficiently absorb the matter/anti-matter reaction. This of course doesn't take away from your arguement at all - the fuel source of Star Trek is just as fictional as the fuel used in BSG.First of all, welcome to the forum! Stay long and prosper :D. And, secondly, thanks for the info -- I stand corrected. :)

FeloniousMonk
August 16th, 2005, 09:03 PM
What do you mean by ..."instinct will win out over society every time"? Isn't the advancement of human civilization proof positive that at least some of us are able to overcome our baser instincts?
Overcome? Advancement of human civilization has come about because of our instincts, not in spite of them. ;) It all started when one guy way back in the day decided to stand up and walk upright. That allowed for better hunting, use of two limbs for tools as well as carrying food back home, which allowed for better hunts. Better hunts meant animals higher up on the food chain which meant more protein which in time contributed to larger brains and thus, moon landing. :cool:


I should rephrase my comment, though. I don't mean to say that in every situation primal instinct will direct someone's actions more than social constructs but in the grand scheme of things we're acting basically exactly as we would without our advanced society. Wars are fought over territory and to ensure the survival and growth of a specific pack/tribe, just as wolves do. Murder and rape still occur frequently and while it would make sense that punishments would deter such actions, since those two are very basic parts of nature, primal instinct wins out.

Then again I'm an armchair anthropologist so I could very well be talking out of my ass :p

Easter Lily
August 16th, 2005, 09:44 PM
Well that little social construct is a result of sheer biology. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that double standards are in any way right or justified, but this is one of the few that weren't simply created by boys so we could have more fun or get paid better. The idea of a promiscuous woman being frowned upon while a promiscuous man being applauded stems from how our reproductive systems work.

Let's say you have a group of a particular species which requires 9 months to gestate and the result is usually one offspring, occassionally two, very rarely more. A single female can only be impregnanted so many times in the course of a decade while a single male can impregnante a massive number of females over the same time period. In the end, the sexually active female won't contribute to the species (in terms of population growth) as much as the sexually active male.


I realize there are a lot of girls on this forum so I hope this doesn't offend anyone :p And again, I'm not saying these double standards are right to keep around this day and age, my point is just that they're not unbased. There's a reason for this double standard and we must all remember that instinct will win out over society every time.

No... I'm not offended... even a little amused. An interesting theory if somewhat inconsistent with what I understand of human behaviour.
If polygamy is the dominant ideal of human society, I'd say that would be some foundation to this theory. Besides, polygamy is expensive... only the rich can afford it. But we're not just biological creatures, we are rational, moral creatures. We make choices and we seem to have a preference for monogamy and it isn't all about saving money either. ;)

Incidentally, my grandfather on my father's side had two wives... at the same time... he was fruitful and multiplied greatly but my grandmother, his second wife was a business transaction, pure and simple... If you ask me, it's more about position, power structure and cultural acceptance.

Liebestraume
August 16th, 2005, 10:19 PM
Overcome? Advancement of human civilization has come about because of our instincts, not in spite of them. ;) ...I believe you conveniently left out an important qualifier -- "baser" ;) ... Big difference!


I should rephrase my comment, though. I don't mean to say that in every situation primal instinct will direct someone's actions more than social constructs but in the grand scheme of things we're acting basically exactly as we would without our advanced society. Wars are fought over territory and to ensure the survival and growth of a specific pack/tribe, just as wolves do. Murder and rape still occur frequently and while it would make sense that punishments would deter such actions, since those two are very basic parts of nature, primal instinct wins out.Sure, all that stuff still goes on; but I don't think it could all be blamed on "animal instinct." Human beings are capable of higher functions and individual choices.

Going with your line of reasoning ... since human societies are at least one-step above wolf-packs, wouldn't that mean that we -- or at least some of us -- had evolved beyond Neanderthals? Or are you actually saying human societies are no different from wolf-packs? If the latter, I'd suggest you add animal husbandry as "real world evidence" to support your original argument. Hey, at least it's a contemporary "example"! :p

Easter Lily
August 16th, 2005, 10:29 PM
Having difficulty posting.

Reviewing the thread, I see I missed Keshou's post. My apologies.



Nor am I going to change your mind. The point of these in depth discussions are not to change people's minds, at least not for the people posting. (The ego gets invested, after all.) The point is to enrich the understanding. If you say you find the characters complex in response to my observation that they are black-and-white, then I try to see if if there's a misunderstanding or where the error is.

I allege heroes are written white, you counter they are written with flaws. Well, I never meant to imply that the heroes are written like Dudley Do-right. But in BSG the heroes are written so that any "flaws" are 1.)not actually flaws or 2.)carefully balanced with virtues and/or good intentions or 3.)flaws without genuine consequences, making them merely occasions for cheap thrills or 4.)only certain kinds of flaws, which are almost never genuinely offensive and 5.)the way the scenes are written just makes them seem nicer.

And that is a problem? :S

Ah... I get it... Let me see... you believe that there is a right way and a wrong way to write these characters. That these characters should be archetypes... follow a series of prescribed rules and should invoke certain fixed responses from us.

(There's a lass from Australia who was convicted of drug smuggling in Indonesia. The media kicked up a big stink about it considering that they are rather quiet about Australians elsewhere in the world who are also being detained) and the country is sharply divided over her guilt. Some believe her to be innocent and some think she is guilty. The media seems to have taken her side but not everyone seems convinced.)

I think I'll stick to speaking in general terms because a) I'm extremely tired and b) fundamentally your assumptions and mine aren't even on the same page, so the examples you use don't speak to me in the same way that it does to you. I don't watch a show to see if it fits in with Northrop Frye's or Aristotle's theories on narrative or FR Leavis' work on characterization... I watch a show because I love a good story. Yup... it's as simple as that...

If you don't mind me saying, in this day and age, it's a little naive to still think that writers in general don't manipulate their characters to make them a tad more sympathetic when they may or may not "deserve" to be. It's done all the time and it's called "point of view". Actors, writers, directors constantly talk about this obvious manipulation constantly in interviews..."This character is a bad guy but we've tried to make him more sympathetic" Etc... etc... etc... In fact, I've just been watching the BSG Lowdown and Tricia Helfer says exactly that about Six. Isn't it every writer's dream to push the envelope... to do something different...? *shrugs shoulders* I thought it was anyway...

FeloniousMonk
August 16th, 2005, 10:41 PM
If polygamy is the dominant ideal of human society
See that's my point, it's ideal for human biology, not for society. We assign moral codes to our own nature and even those are due to our instincts for survival. Why is murder a crime? Because it's evil? There's nothing inherently evil about it since the animal kingdom is full of it; many higher carnivours kill for sport, even among their own. We assign a moral value to murder because our instincts tell us that any action which decreases the population is bad for the survival of the species. Although, many would argue, and I'd be inclined to agree in many cases, that survival of the fittest demands that we allow it to happen so that only the strongest and most capable of fending off attack will pass on their genes. In those cases, our morals and ideals intervene...you're right, we are rational creatures and somehow we've deemed it a necessity to protect those that wouldn't survive in the harshness of the wild.

On that same token...we now have six billion people in the world and in time the planet's natural resources won't be able to sustain the population. Interesting, no? :D

Also, technically humans are polygamous. With a few rare exceptions, most humans do not mate for life. Truly monogamous creatures will find one mate and if that mate dies, rarely do they seek out another. In our society we date and date until we find the person to marry. Sometimes we decide that mate doesn't really fit the bill and go back to dating to marry again. It's kind of funny that different primates have different social structures. We, like chimps, are violent and polygamous. Gorillas are far more docile and monogamous.

but as I've said before, I may have no idea what I'm talking about :p

FeloniousMonk
August 16th, 2005, 10:49 PM
I believe you conveniently left out an important qualifier -- "baser" ;) ... Big difference!

Sure, all that stuff still goes on; but I don't think it could all be blamed on "animal instinct." Human beings are capable of higher functions and individual choices.

Going with your line of reasoning ... since human societies are at least one-step above wolf-packs, wouldn't that mean that we -- or at least some of us -- had evolved beyond Neanderthals? Or are you actually saying human societies are no different from wolf-packs? If the latter, I'd suggest you add animal husbandry as "real world evidence" to support your original argument. Hey, at least it's a contemporary "example"! :p
Oh we've certainly evolved beyond that, but like you pointed out, it's our most basic instincts that drive us. Many believe we've lost most of our higher instincts, those that give animals seemingly extra senses beyond the usual five, because we're self aware and our conscious mind gets in the way.

We're certainly different from wolf packs, just saying that we share many of the same traits. I'm not arguing that we've evolved far beyond anything else on the planet and abilities such as cognitive thought, reasoning, and higher communication haven't dramatically changed the way we interact with nature; we're definately advanced creatures. I just think a lot of people tend to forget that we're still animals and we still have many of the same urges and desires.

and not all of them are bad ;) :cool:

FeloniousMonk
August 16th, 2005, 11:00 PM
In "Fragged," the chief was arguing with the lieutenant about the necessity to attack the Cylons. Sort of, he didn't actually have any point to make other than it was dangerous. The lieutenant tells the chief to stay cool. Now, the chief wasn't actually thinking, so trying to think it through coolly was good advice. Yet it was the lieutenant who was written as agitated and the chief who was written as cool. And there's another one of the things I mean when I say characters are written black and white.
I didn't notice this post until just now, but I wanted to address this. How was the chief not actually thinking? Crashdown's plan wasn't very thought out; the guy was an officer simply because he was a pilot. He had no leadership skills beyond what he learned in a classroom. The chief acted in ways that implied he'd seen combat. A good officer (at least one with as little experience in the field as Crashdown) would defer judgement or at least ask the advice of his senior NCO.

Of course Crashdown was written as agitated; I doubt the guy had ever been shot at, outside of a Raptor, in his life before that day. The chief was cool headed and it made perfect sense in the context of the story as well as the individual characters.

I do see your point on how they're written black and white, especially with all the others. But you have to realize that the writers have to appeal to the audiences desires as well as their own creativities. If they were to write these characters as truly flawed as they could be, fewer people would watch the show. They're written with those types of flaws because they're the heroes; no one watches a tv show to see a bunch of people that are just like them and their friends. Even reality shows give horribly inaccurate (and horribly acted in most cases :p) examples of flawed characters.

Yes, compared to real life they're very black and white. But compared to any other science fiction show in the US? You never see this kind of thing on Star Trek, even B5 barely scratched the surface of this. Firefly and Farscape were both too focused on the bigger message to spend time on real flaws and Stargate...in terms of character realness it's just Star Trek with less technobabble. BSG may not be the true reflection of reality that the PR team would like reviewers and the audience to believe, but it's a hell of a lot more than we've seen in other sci-fi shows and even beats out many other dramas. I see more character realism in BSG than in any of the CSIs, Law and Orders, etc. To be honest the only show I've ever watched that has truly and honestly flawed lead characters is Rescue Me.

[/two cents]

Liebestraume
August 17th, 2005, 07:42 PM
... but like you pointed out, it's our most basic instincts that drive us. .. :D Say what?

It would appear that "abilities such as cognitive thought, reasoning, and higher communication haven't dramatically" improved our (i.e., your and/or my) understanding, either. By "overcoming our baser instinct" I meant (the collective) we managed to rise above qualities such as cruelty, treachery, or greed -- base, as in lacking of higher qualities of mind or spirit; not basic. In fact, I have been, and still am, maintaining we are not entirely driven by our basic instincts.

Not all of us all the time, but some of us some of the time.

To bring this discussion back on topic, I agree with LoneStar that BSG's challenge of gender bias in pupolar culture is one of its many strengths. Though the impromptu anthropology lesson is very much appreciated, please forgive me if I don't share the Neanderthal sentimentality. Perhaps remember where these double-standards came from should also remind us how useless they are in this day and age.

LoneStar1836
August 17th, 2005, 09:13 PM
Sorry, I didn’t mean to ruffle any feathers with a statement that, in my opinion, is an example of a double-standard in our society, but I can't accept some outmoded reason for it's continued existence. :)

Anyway, to get the thread back on topic……….:D

All right. You have my parole. When I'm on duty, I'll make no attempt to free her or sow insurrection among the crew…… And when I'm not on duty, I'll report directly back to this cell.So does anyone feel like Lee violated his parole and thus his word of honor by conspiring to help Roslin escape?

In his podcast, RDM said that he thinks he walked a fine line with Lee in regards to that. If I remember right, RDM said that he didn’t think Lee had broken his word in regards to his parole, but I listened to it several days ago and can’t really say for sure what his answer was, if he even had one.

I don’t know. I find it difficult to say that Lee didn’t go against his word. True he probably never conversed about it or took any direct actions to get the plan in order while on duty, but to me just the act of conspiring to free Roslin, whether on duty or off, breaks the parole pact for me. It’s not like Tigh said “when on duty, don’t even think about helping her, but when off duty, sure go right ahead.” (Course I just have to overlook Tigh leaving those two in adjoining cells. That was another stupid move on his part on his long list of bad decisions.)

I guess technically he didn’t because you could say that like the conversations he had with Dee were while he was being escorted back to the brig so he was off-duty and in transit. He must have been getting Billy and/or Corporal Venner to pass notes or verbally relay messages to people involved in helping them escape.

I find it to be a fine line whether or not Lee, in principle, honored his word. By literal definition of what he promised Tigh, I think he kept his word, but by doing what he did off duty, he broke the spirit of the agreement.

Again, I admire Lee for standing up for what he believes is right, but I disagree with what he did in this episode.

Easter Lily
August 17th, 2005, 10:25 PM
To bring this discussion back on topic, I agree with LoneStar that BSG's challenge of gender bias in pupolar culture is one of its many strengths. Though the impromptu anthropology lesson is very much appreciated, please forgive me if I don't share the Neanderthal sentimentality. Perhaps remember where these double-standards came from should also remind us how useless they are in this day and age.
My problem with the "Neanderthal" sentimentality is the assumption that our ancestors were more primitive than we were... that somehow we are rather more enlightened now than they ever were. In some areas yes, we may have advanced further than they have but there's a joke that I often throw at my friends and that is, "we are only rediscovering what the Chinese have forgotten."
I have a huge problem with the evolutionary model when explaining history... (in fact I have a huge problem with the evolutionary model period... but that's neither here nor there) Biology can only go so far in explaining certain aspects of human life but biology cannot give us the whole picture and that is where other branches of knowledge such as archaeology and history comes in.

Back on the topic: (Again!)
Actually LS... if you notice my earlier review... I did mention that I was rather disappointed that Lee reneged on his parole... I don't know what RDM meant when he said Lee was treading a fine line because as far as I'm concerned... he crossed the line... He may not have repeated his mutinous act but he did conspire to help free her. After thinking it through, I now think he committed the lesser of two evil acts by escaping rather than destabilizing the ship further by going against Tigh directly. That would have forced the crew on the Galactica to take sides which probably wouldn't have been very productive either.

Okay... I admit to having watched too much Hornblower... but when a parole is given... a man's reputation is on the line and as you say... the spirit of the agreement is as important or more so than just adhering to the letter of it. It's about being trustworthy... despite the circumstances... not because it is an easy thing to do...
The only excuse I can offer up for his actions is I supposed he felt the situation was desperate and warranted some action. It interests me that Dee was trying to hint to him that he should take command of the ship and the bright side is that a lesser man might have tried and wreaked more havoc for the fleet.

LoneStar1836
August 17th, 2005, 11:17 PM
Sorry, I forgot about that. Didn’t think to look. I figured since I indirectly caused the thread to stray OT, then I’d try to get it back on topic. :D

*sigh* I was going to try to watch Hornblower when I was over in Texas because we have satellite over there and I think the Biography Channel was running the movies while I was there and I don’t get that channel here, but I never did make the effort to say “well I want to watch that, so can we?”. Hopefully A&E will get a whim and air them again sometime soon.…..


After thinking it through, I now think he committed the lesser of two evil acts by escaping rather than destabilizing the ship further by going against Tigh directly. That would have forced the crew on the Galactica to take sides which probably wouldn't have been very productive either.Good point there, but I still feel that he had a duty to the military and to himself to relieve Col. Tigh from command. Tigh was putting Galactica and the people under his command in danger because he was intoxicated and had impaired judgment. Just like one should feel that it is his/her duty to take the keys from a friend who has been drinking, Lee should have felt the responsibility to take the keys from Tigh, even if by force. Thank goodness Adama is back on his feet. Tigh would have drunk the fleet dry……

I’d like to think that Lee would have had considerable support if he had taken that action, but I don’t know how the crew would have felt about Capt. Kelly assuming command then. People might have liked that guy even less than Tigh. How? I don’t know, but it’s possible. :D I don’t think Lee would have been in a position to oust Tigh and then put himself in command unless he does out rank Kelly by time in grade.

I can see how Lee putting himself in command might would divide the crew because after all he had just gone against his father’s orders and then put a gun to Tigh’s head, but there are probably plenty of people aboard who have wished they could do that…..but going against the Old Man, even if you are his son, might not have garnered him complete support. I don’t know. I still think Lee ousting Tigh would have been better for everyone, and I think he should have felt obligated to do so. BUT....then we don’t get the big ongoing conflict we have now complete with all the angsty stuff between Lee and his father. :D

Easter Lily
August 17th, 2005, 11:55 PM
I can see how Lee putting himself in command might would divide the crew because after all he had just gone against his father’s orders and then put a gun to Tigh’s head, but there are probably plenty of people aboard who have wished they could do that…..but going against the Old Man, even if you are his son, might not have garnered him complete support. I don’t know. I still think Lee ousting Tigh would have been better for everyone, and I think he should have felt obligated to do so. BUT....then we don’t get the big ongoing conflict we have now complete with all the angsty stuff between Lee and his father. :D

That Lee is gained a great deal of respect on the Galactica, I have no doubt. He has had to work for it. But it would probably be from those who work the most closely with him. It was interesting that they showed his pilots clamouring for his return to the card table which indicated to me that some sections of the crew, at least would have taken his side, if he had decided to unseat Tigh. But perhaps, out of respect to his father, Lee made the decision that he did. He did say to Col Tigh in the previous episode that "this is still his ship".
What I'm mostly unhappy about is his throwing his lot with Roslin and his collaborating with Zarek. But that's for another thread... :D
I'm just wondering... out loud mostly... :D if they're not trying just a bit too hard in getting Lee to be his "own man". To distinguish him from his father. Do a bit of good o'l fashion rebellion and create some good o'l fashion family drama. I've been quite impressed with how they had been developing the father and son relationship but I should have known that it was too good too last...

plot mechanic
August 18th, 2005, 05:48 AM
Easter Lily, sorry for the delay.

One clarification: I don't think everyone should dislike Starbuck. I just have trouble believing that Tigh would be the only one who dislikes Starbuck, while everyone else loves and admires her. That may be "point of view," but it feels like writer manipulation to me.

Another clarification: The chief/lieutenant scene was definitely written to force the conclusion that the chief was wise and the lieutenant was incompetent. The chief is written as a nice guy in the first place, so the initial impulse is rate his opinion higher. When Baltar shoots the lieutenant, they initiated combat, with one fewer soldier but without the advantage of surprise. They still succeed in destroying the radar dish, while under attack by the Cylons, no less! The rescue by the armed search party was a sound hope from the second they heard the ship. In other words, the facts of the story show that the lieutenant was thinking soundly!

I can think of at least three senses in which the survivors "owed" the dead soldiers. They "owed" them revenge. You could very sensibly argue that this is letting emotions get the better of you. But that is not what the chief said! Really, when the chief said he didn't know how they were relevant, I thought he was being dishonest and insolent. Because, one other sense that the lieutenant "owed" the survivors was to succeed at the mission, so that their deaths could be counted as necessary sacrifices. The lieutenant couldn't talk about this without talking about his failures, real or perceived. The third sense in which they "owed" the survivors, the one that the chief simply ignores, is living up to their example as soldiers doing their duty. Which means, trying to save the search mission from the Cylon missiles! It is true that sitting on his ass is safer for the chief. It's true that the lieutenant simply pulls rank instead of pointing this out, whether objectively or perhaps emotionally accusing the chief of cowardice. The chief's convenient refusal (for him) to look at the big picture really does suggest a reason why he's not officer material.

More on what I mean by black and white in another post in the thread.

pm

PS Everybody sees things differently. When the chief was explaining the lieutenants stupidly literal copying of the order format he learned in command school, I wondered: How does the chief know what they teach in command school. Did he flunk out? Or just check into it?

plot mechanic
August 18th, 2005, 06:22 AM
Sharky, a clarification: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

When, in these times, a television show imagines a world in which 1.)evil religious fanatics aim to exterminate humanity for no explainable reason; 2.)it is necessary to "torture" these fanatics; 3.)said fanatics only appear human, but are truly inhuman 4.)their religion leads to genocide; 5.)"our" leader's religion (so far) leads to genuinely prophetic dreams 5.)the desperate exigencies of the struggle requires autocratic "leadership" from the military; 6.)despite the alleged worldshaking holocaust that changed everything, life actually continues pretty much like before (as supposedly 9/11 changed everything, except, honestly, it didn't.)...I smell a rat.

As near as I can tell, the original BSG was basically Brigham Young leading the Mormons to Utah, which is a very different animal from the new one. I really don't see any effort to recreate the old show (I must admit I don't really care about that, though.) Since it's not designed to capture old fans, I have to wonder if the show wasn't "revived" as it's premises could be tweaked to fit current events. Robots as religious fanatics is a truly preposterous idea. Robots programmed to be religious fanatics might make a serious scifi drama, but BSG simply is not serious. Sky TV from the UK cofinanced BSG. Is that a Rupert Murdoch outfit, or owned by a similar type?

Further, BSG just isn't written very well. This is my judgment, which should go without saying. No doubt my distaste for its underlying messages makes its writing flaws more noticeable. But when I can force myself to watch, which I have for roughly the same kinds of reasons I force myself to listen to government spokesmen talk, I fear that the only real appeal of BSG is jingo fantasy. The moronic reviews that praise BSG as drama (hey, Matt Roush actually works for Murdoch!) reinforce this fear. Look, BSG has women whose spines light up while they're having sex! Women Cylons roam around naked, in packs! People are constantly holding guns to someone's head! Woman torturer! Has it not occurred to people that this sort of thing is usually despised, instead of praised? What's different now? I fear the difference is that BSG fits the government line.

So, it should be obvious why I started posting. Your politics may be different (or may not,) but it's not some ego thing.

But, happily, the posters in this thread don't seem to be seeing BSG this way. At this point, I guess I'm posting to finish what I started. Not a profound reason, to be sure.

pm

plot mechanic
August 18th, 2005, 07:13 AM
Liebestraume, skipping over the science parts to the characterizations, you may see Adama's coup as an overreaction to Starbuck's seduction. Certainly there is no rational explanation given for Adama's refusal to try to find Earth, nor is a coup the only way to handle the situation, even given that Adama believes he was right. These reasons are why I agree that essentially Adama started a civil war because he was jealous. And because he has despised civilians from the beginning. That is decidedly flawed.

But the show has already spent multiple episodes making sure that Tigh takes the blame! I don't know how much more whitewash of a character you could want! Adama will not be walking through the corridors and overhear some joke about him and Starbuck. It would be amazing if anyone, including Apollo, Starbuck or Roslin ever alluded to his true motivations. The show is already written as if his motivation was some sort of rationalism about religious revelation. To repeat, there is no way (shown) that Adama can know that "Earth" is a mythical, instead of historical, part of scripture. And that's a whitewash too. As well as making the whole miserable storyline fake drama to boot.

I was quite literal when I said I didn't see how Baltar could learn anything unless the revelation from Boomer was somehow supposed to be true. If it's not true, Baltar just learns that the Boomereither loves or pretends to love Tyrol (and will lie as part of that pretense.) I don't see how that's useful to him. However, if somehow Boomer's admission is true, Baltar learns that Boomer's love can lead to some actions at least against programming, i.e., is genuine love. Now that might be useful.

I still think the scene is basically gibberish. There's no way Baltar could know Boomer "knows" the number, or know if she's telling the truth. I suggest the plain meaning of the scene is intentional, stupid as that may be. But it's sensational gibberish, thrilling the viewers who like torture and violence, and it's supposed to develop Baltar's ascent to manliness. That notion still strikes me as both silly and nasty.

You don't believe that any of the main characters should actually dramatize the supposed extermination of humanity (which is pretty moot since the last episode undoes that!) Nor do you believe that Cylon "humanity" (nature, extent, lack of, imperfection, perfection, etc.) should be a main theme. I don't quite see the point of BSG's aspirations to real drama, even the scifi type, if it doesn't. But if that's how you feel, it would certainly lead you to rate BSG higher than I do. I don't see any point to belaboring either view, now that they're clarified. These fundamental disagreements are irreconcilable.


Had Roslin "sticked up for herself," whose blood do you think would have been shed? Ty's? Lee's? Or that of some innocent marine, whose worst possible offense was perhaps misguided loyalty to their sworn duty? "Give me Liberty, or give me death" is a fine and noble ambition, so long as the death one dares is one's own.

And, if a cause could be demoralized -- to the point of never being able to make a comeback -- by the apparent failing of a single leader, then perhaps the said cause indeed deserve its fate.

When Roslin initially refused to surrender to men with guns, she was daring her own death. When Apollo held the gun to Tigh's head, she could have simply said, "Do not fire the first shot!" As for that innocent Marine, how could he have been more innocent that the people shot down in "Resistance?" Are you implying that the protestors were not innocent?

My point is not just that Roslin failed. My point is that she surrendered. And I must insist that many movements can recover from defeats or other failures of the leaders. But nothing, nothing is more demoralizing than surrender. The series would have it that someone organized an incomplete boycott. Whoever did that is the true leader, now. I doubt that the writers of the show are sophisticated enough to realized this. But you will see.

pm

FeloniousMonk
August 18th, 2005, 09:18 AM
PS Everybody sees things differently. When the chief was explaining the lieutenants stupidly literal copying of the order format he learned in command school, I wondered: How does the chief know what they teach in command school. Did he flunk out? Or just check into it?
Were it not for the likely requirement that pilots be officers (as it is in our armed forces) it's doubtful Crashdown would have ever made through any kind of officer training. The chief probably knows about it because it's probably a common course of action. Remember, they've been at relative peace for the past few decades and most of them have never seen combat. From the chief's actions in going back for the medkit it's readily obvious that if he hasn't seen combat then at the very least he's learned from his training a lot better than Crashdown.

The plan worked because of luck and had the Raptor not been right there to save them it would've ended badly. The chief could see that the plan was flawed. In the end it worked despite being a man down and losing the element of surprise but sheer stupid luck does not mean it was a sound plan to begin with. Crashdown orders a scared young girl, a mechanic, to draw fire while he plans to hang back and cover...that's not leader material right there. He was written as being agitated because in a real situation that's likely what would've happened. Pilots are used to combat with other pilots, not with ground troops.

LoneStar1836
August 18th, 2005, 10:55 AM
So, it should be obvious why I started posting.
So you see the show as very politically biased?

I highly doubt either Ron Moore or David Eick is a Republican or a conservative in today's politics. Being either of those in Hollywood is like the kiss of death, at least if you announce it publicly. Moore said this is a “re-imaged” version of BSG. He has taken the basic premise of the original BSG and tooled it to tell his story. He even explicitly said it can seem to mirror the current issues we face today because he was taking some liberties and incorporating relevant issues we face. (I do remember him talking about this on one of his podcasts from S1, course I’m paraphrasing the gist of what I remember him saying.)

Honestly, I don’t watch the show to see if it is doing that – mirroring current issues. Yes, I’m not blind to the fact that you can (if you really want to) do some labeling as to whom on the show is representing who/what issues in RL. I did have some reservations about the show because Moore had said such things so I hoped his political views wouldn’t dominate the show. So far I haven’t seen anything overtly on one side of the political spectrum or the other. I find the show to be pretty balanced though I’m not claiming that I’m unbiased in my political views.

Moore stated this on his BSG blog (http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/) in response to a thread on the Sci-fi boards:
Not only is this a (by and large) intelligent and thoughtful debate on a serious topic [Human Rights abuse], it also brings up a question I'm often asked -- namely what are the politics of the show and what is its political agendat? The quick answer is that the show doesn't really have a political agenda in the sense that it's neither liberal nor conservative in the way those labels are thrown around in the sound-bite era of demagoguery that currently passes for political discourse in this country. One would be hardpressed to say that watching Laura Roslin break her word to a prisoner and then kick him out an airlock would be advancing a progressive, liberal agenda, or that Adama questioning his society's worthiness to be saved is somehow indicative of a conservative bias.

I certainly have my own political views and it would be disingenuous at best to say that there's some kind of firewall between my beliefs and those portrayed on the show. I'm the head writer -- my views and thoughts are on life are on display every week, including my political predilections. However, I don't see the show as a platform to advance my political belief system or my own views on morality. I do see the show as an opportunity to raise questions in the minds of the audience and ask them to think, which is something of a rariety in these days when politics seems to be about stoking emotionalism and finding simple-minded slogans to stand-in for actual answers to complex problems. ("Culture of Life!" "Right to Die!" "Ban Smoking!" "The Ownership Society!")

Galactica is both mirror and prism through which to view our world. It attempts to mirror the complexities of our lives and our society in turbulent times, while at the same time reflecting and bending that view in order to allow us to extrapolate on notions present in contemporary society but which have not yet come to pass, i.e. a true artificial intelligence becoming self-aware and the existential questions it raises. Our goal is to examine contemporary culture and society, to challenge (and sometimes provoke) our audience, but not to provide easy answers to complex problems.

I firmly believe that what Kara Thrace did to Leoben in "Flesh and Bone" was wrong. I believe that a society which employs torture on the defenseless captives in its custody has crossed a bright shining line that civilized people should not cross. Likewise, I think that Laura Roslin promising a man freedom only to kill him in the end is abhorrent to the ways in which I want my president to behave. However, I also understand why each of them did what they did. I understand the emotional, psychological and moral quandries which can lead two moral, good people to take such ghastly actions. And, in the end, I also believe that it was true to who characters really are, and that trumps everything else.

Would I personally behave the same way in similar circumstances? I hope not, but neither am I so confident of my own immunity to the pressures felt by an interrogator charged with finding a nuclear weapon or to the enormous weight sitting on a chief executive trying to protect her citizenry that I can say I would absolutely have made the more "moral" choice.

Was it wrong for Adama to dissolve a legally constituted judicial tribunal in "Litmus" simply because he sensed it becoming a witch-hunt or was he actually protecting the larger concepts of justice? Was it right for Lee to shoot down a civilian ship knowing full well that it was probably filled with innocent human beings or was he making a pragmatic choice to protect the greater number in the fleet? Is Tyrol a fool for protecting Sharon or is he honoring the most fundamental human emotion of all -- true love?

These are the debates that I hope you have among yourselves, your families, your friends. I want the show to provoke you into thinking about the times you live in and the choices that are being made all around you every day. In a time when the President of the United States actually asserts that he has the power to arrest without warrant and detain indefinitely without charge or appeal, any citizen (indeed any person on the face of the Earth) simply by designating them as an "illegal combatant," we should all be engaged in a vigorous and energetic debate about who we are as a people and as human beings and exactly how we do intend to respond to the very real threat posed to this nation and to the foundations of liberal democracy posed by people capable of, and willing to, fly airplanes into buildings.

I hope this show makes you think. I hope this show makes you question the moral choices that are being made in your name and by your representatives. I hope this show angers you at times and makes you outraged at the actions that good people like Kara and Laura sometimes take. But the show is not a polemic; our aim is not to screech and demagogue these issues in search of facile answers. Good people can make bad, even horrific decisions, just as bad people can make noble, even righteous ones. Balancing civil liberties with security is a complicated, difficult gymnastic act which defies the easy, pat answers typically served up by an hour of episodic television.

If the show does have a single, consistent point of view, it is probably best summed up by something Lincoln said during his second inaugural address:

"With malice toward none, with charity for all..."

Think about that. Debate the meaning of that simple idea. For that, more than anything else, expresses this show and the politics behind it.


On a different note………

plot mechanic, just to try to see where you are coming from, what shows on television (past or present), if any, do you consider to be excellent examples of drama and whose characters break the mold of your criteria “of black and white” characters? Specifically, are there any in the sci-fi genre? Just a friendly question. :) I’m not trying to belittle your view of BSG, I'm just wondering what shows do you consider to be quality drama that BSG is not measuring up to. I’m really curious to find out what you really like, if anything. Obviously it’s not BSG. :P

epiphany
August 18th, 2005, 11:07 PM
I find it to be a fine line whether or not Lee, in principle, honored his word. By literal definition of what he promised Tigh, I think he kept his word, but by doing what he did off duty, he broke the spirit of the agreement.

Again, I admire Lee for standing up for what he believes is right, but I disagree with what he did in this episode.

BUT...if Lee considers what was done with the attempted "coup" and Roslin's imprisonment "illegal" and thus his own imprisonment illegal then in point of fact, much like a prisoner of war of a foreign country, he'd have a duty to attempt to escape when outside the hours of his parole. Anytime Apollo wasn't on duty, there was nothing technically wrong with his planning and carrying out an escape attempt, at least in terms of his parole. Saying he'd report to his cell doesn't mean he'd either stay there. The transport back to the cell is the grey area that allowed the wiggle room.

Also you have to take into consideration when he gave his parole AND Tigh's actions AFTERWARDS. When Lee gave his parole Tigh had not declared Martial Law. When Tigh did that, that basically made Lee's parole null and void. He gave his parole as an officer in a military under a government that operated under the Articles he'd sworn allegiance too--when Tigh unilaterally declared Martial Law he broke the Articles and so Lee was no longer really under an obligation to listen to him. Whereas by the Articles, he did have an obligation to free the rightful President of the Colonies from under the imprisonment of an illegal Martial government.

Remember what Lee said in Bastille Day -- that if they were going to throw out the Articles then she wasn't the President(by those terms), Adama wasn't the Commander(by those terms) and he didn't need to listen to either of them. When Tigh declared Martial Law he basically invalidated any promise Lee made to him previously.

plot mechanic
August 19th, 2005, 06:43 AM
Lonestar, your last post was lengthy, so it took a little more thought.

About tyllium, and dilithium, too: Can't help it, gibberish like that gives me heartburn. Perhaps the chemistry teacher perspective highlights the problem?

Every one of the points about Starbuck is true some of the time, or maybe even most of the time. But in my opinion, not all of the time. The only character who dislikes Starbuck is Tigh. And this is supposed to be so unreasonable that it shows what a jerk Tigh is! Lots of people will like and/or admire Starbuck. Just not everyone. Aggressive characters like her are much more polarizing. Some people will agree with Tigh.

And the sheer perversity of people will ensure that some people will dislike or fear Adama. The fear part strikes me first because Adama has a death glare as good or maybe even better than Janeway's. Your explanation of why (some) people would still respect, admire and love him is quite correct. But much of that would not apply to newbies. Incidentally, the behavior of the military characters suggests that there is a continuous stream of combat veterans from "small" wars leavening a larger number of rear echelon troops. This blatantly contradicts the alleged backstory in which the last war was forty years ago. Starbuck is no more a combat veteran than the least of her "nuggets."

Backstory, as far as I know it, is why I can't accept Adama's interest as "paternal," though I might believe he has deceived himself...except that Adama is written as the wisest. Zack and Starbuck fall in love at basic flight school, where she's an instructor. She passes him, he goes on to the advanced program he can't handle and he is killed. We're talking about a couple of years so far. Adama is on Galactica, while Starbuck and Zack are at some school. (If Zack was directlyunder Adama's eye at a ship-based program, Apollo was right to blame Adama!) I think Starbuck and Adama meet at the funeral! Starbuck was never in the role of daughter-in-law. This makes it hard to believe Adama ever truly saw her as just daughter.

There is the "official" version, in which Starbuck's daughter persona results as a desperate effort to connect Adama to the lost Zack, or to the difficult son, Apollo. This was jammed into some preposterous dialogue between Tigh and Roslin in that crazy episode where Starbuck survives a Columbia crash (sic!) then instantly learns to tame the Cylon raider (sic! again!) Though honestly I would think that Tigh's out-of-the-blue display of emotional sensitivity and perception was so extraordinary that it should be burned into viewers' memories. As it is, I just read it as an announcement almost direct from the writers: Adama's love for Starbuck is paternal. I think they had to resort to this clumsy (and unbelievable, for me) scene because they vaguely realized they were actually writing something else. Or maybe Edward James Olmos was bugging them.

If Zack had been the difficult son, the need for even a flimsy posthumous connection to the (female) surrogate would feel right. But, Zack was supposed to be the daddy's boy. If anything, making Starbuck the daughter is like replacing Zack. This makes no emotional sense to me. It just doesn't feel right, doesn't feel like the way real people might behave.

As far as Starbuck being something in common between Adama and Apollo, the link between Apollo and Starbuck is sexual. Unless I missed some back story? Fellow combat veterans would work if the last war wasn't forty years ago. But officially, it wasn't. That sort of contradiction is just another example of how writing contemporary people in space is not just an esthetic choice, but genuinely stupid, if inexpensive. Anyhow, since Starbuck is in a sense Zack's widow, a sexual relationship between Apollo and Starbuck I think would be felt as a slight against Zack's memory. Again, Zack is supposed to have been the good son. Again, this just doesn't feel right.

These considerations lead me to perceive Adama's feelings for Starbuck as primarily sexual. If they are also paternal, then they are also incestuous. I suppose in principle we could be seeing tragic Greek myth enacted. But not in a show written primarily for cheap thrills.

Suppose the Apollo/Starbuck/Adama triangle were in fact supposed to be father, surrogate daughter and son. They all know Starbuck isn't really the daughter, so she and Apollo can easily deny any incestuous implications. So far as Zack's memory goes, well, screwing the brother is really less insulting than taking his place. But, there's an emotional obstacle between Apollo and Adama regarding Starbuck. Might I suggest abandoning Greek myth (which the writers probably don't know anyhow,) to compare Adama/Starbuck/Zack to King David/Bathsheba/Uriah the Hittite? This would explain Apollo's resentment against the father, no?

But enough. I think I've clarified my position pretty much, which is about all discussions like this can do. Easter Lily's position that a lot of what I complain about is just point of view I suppose is technically correct. I just resent having it forced on me.

Finally done, I think?

pm

FeloniousMonk
August 19th, 2005, 07:54 AM
I like this guy, he puts a lot of thought into his analysis. :cool:


Just one thing to point out, the whole insulting Zak's memory through the suggested sexual connection with Apollo and Starbuck isn't rare. It's not uncommon for that sort of triangle to happen in families across the nation. I've seen it happen once and there have been a multitude of shows that feature such a premise. Besides, it may also be a throwback to the biblical stories in which god supposedly decrees that a man should marry and protect his brother's widow.

LoneStar1836
August 19th, 2005, 10:16 AM
Thank you for the reply plot mechanic.

Heh. There is another board that I read where it seems many of the posters dislike and even hate Starbuck. They think she is too much of a Mary Sue.

Yeah, I know my specific cited example of “Band of Brothers” was under a war battle setting and none of these people had ever been to war with Adama, not even Tigh, but I was trying to get at more of the point that Adama has a connection with his people. Much like how Captain Winters had with his. Winters had already garnered the respect and admiration of his men during basic and later training in England before they were ever dropped behind enemy lines on D-Day. Behind the death stare, Adama can also be a people person to a degree. He is as tough as nails when he needs to be, but he’s not a complete SOB like Capt. Sobel, the company’s first CO, who was not leadership material. The men of Easy Company were relieved that they would not have to be going in to battle with Soble. Adama is not standoffish like Sobel was. I’m sure the newbies are scared as hell of him, but I wouldn’t say the people who have come to know him and have served under his command for a period of time are. When he gets in your face, you ought to be scared no matter who you are, but I don’t think people are afraid of his leadership qualities and his ability to command effectively. (which I guess is what I initially though you were getting at – that people should be afraid of his ability to command rather than the man’s personality)

Eh, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on the rest of your post, but thanks for explaining your position.


Finally done, I think?No. :P You have got to answer this for me before you go. Please! I am dying to know just what shows on tv do/did you like, if any? :D Just one will suffice……even if you just say Jeopardy. :D

Liebestraume
August 19th, 2005, 07:10 PM
So, it should be obvious why I started posting. Color me confused, plot mechanic. Upthread you said
The point of these in depth discussions ... is to enrich the understanding.A worthwhile goal, indeed, and something I wholehearted agree. Your recent reply to sharky seems to indicate that your commentating of BSG almost solely stemmed from political creed. Not that I have anything against political activism ... but if your perception is so steeped in a particular brand of politics, how do you plan to enrich your own understanding (of diverse perspectives)? Surely, genuine understanding is predicated upon a certain degree of open-mindedness, a willingness to challenge one's own perception?

Or perhaps you are here solely for the purpose of enriching our understanding? Well, no matter. Some of your political assessment indeed confuses me; before getting to the bottoms of them, I now realize any further discussion of characterization is an exercise in futility.

So, let's commence without further ado.


When Roslin initially refused to surrender to men with guns, she was daring her own death. When Apollo held the gun to Tigh's head, she could have simply said, "Do not fire the first shot!" As for that innocent Marine, how could he have been more innocent that the people shot down in "Resistance?" Are you implying that the protestors were not innocent? The leap of logic here is truly astounding! What I said was an "innocent marine, whose worst possible offense was perhaps misguided loyalty to their sworn duty" -- how does that lead to the implication that the protestors were not innocent? Because they were on the opposing sides, only one of them got to be innocent? Was it not possible that they were all good but flawed people with different opinions, but each side believed they were doing the right thing? And, since this part of our discussion was specific to the incident on Colonial One, I fear your lumping in the Resistance incident was grasping straws.

Here is how I read the situation abroad Colonial One: either Roslin goes with Tigh willingly, or she makes a political grandstand and is forced to go with Tigh at gun-point. When Roslin initially refused to stand down, she was risking her own life and that of her guards/aides/groupies. When Lee pulled his gun on Tigh and the marines pulled theirs on Lee, the ones most at risks are the lives of Tigh and Lee. "Do not fire the first shot!" may be politically correct to say, but what would it accomplish? Absolutely nothing. It certain would not have absolved her from the possible bloodshed. She would have still come across as a hypocrite whose grandstand cost other people's lives.


My point is not just that Roslin failed. My point is that she surrendered. And I must insist that many movements can recover from defeats or other failures of the leaders. But nothing, nothing is more demoralizing than surrender.Ah, but I did get your point. That's why my previous post used the phrase "failing of a single leader" -- failing, as in defect in character, conduct, or ability -- instead of failure. And I still say any movement that cannot recover -- for whatever reason -- deserves its demise.

plot mechanic
August 20th, 2005, 08:52 AM
Lonestar, I'm sorry I forgot to check the last page for further points.

Also sorry I forgot to respond to two specific points. I've sort of seen new BSG episodes. The TV set is on while I'm reading, since I'm waiting for the SG-1 repeat. So, I see some parts that attract my attention. But I miss other parts while concentrating on the book.

I'm not going to post extensively on "The Farm" or "Home" as I haven't really seen all of them. I got the impression that BSG has reinvented mad robot rapists, which in my opinion was a dumb idea in Thirties pulp magazines. The women with their legs spread struck me as a really cheap and sleazy thrill. And I noticed that this is the episode where we get a Black Cylon! The scene where Starbuck and whozis point guns at each other in a Mexican standoff was pretty funny. Ditto the scene where Apollo and Helo are holding guns to someone's head in last night's episode. Yes, I know they were supposed to be dramatic scenes. But I think you could have a BSG drinking game, where everyone downs a shot each time one character points a gun at another. And stops drinking when they actually shoot. The statistics on that game would be interesting. By far the funniest scene was the press conference! The notion that there would be a bunch of newspapers/networks in that situation is so dumb it's comical in itself. The scenes where a reporter actually points out Adama didn't answer a question and the reporter actually asks a cutting question about Adama's lies are so insanely unlike reality it's hilarious.

As to TV shows that I consider well written, currently I watch Scrubs, CSI (but not spinoffs, which I think emphasize every weakness in the original!), ER, Numbers, The Closer. I only gave up on Everybody Loves Raymond and Frasier because they quit on me.

In genre, I watch SG-1 (though I've always viewed it as a good comedy/adventure hybrid, and no, I don't know about this serious turn,) SGA and since I accidentally caught a single good episode (at last!) The 4400. I thought Enterprise was interesting but marred by forced POV on the characters but watched until the hideous last season. I can't really insist that SGA is good. I just happen to get enough kick out of the poor man's Richard Dean Anderson that it suits my taste. And, let's face it, lots of The 4400 is just crap. But I really liked the episode that put in the new "wife."

In my view, serialized shows are an intrinsically inferior form, used solely for commercial purposes (hooking an audience.) Even the best examples, like St. Elsewhere and Homicide: Life on the Streets and Wiseguy end up destroying themselves. In some, like X-File, the serialized story was a disaster while the stand alones are excellent. So, my favorite genre offerings have really been anthology series like Twilight Zone and The Outer Limits, especially the first, or the standalone Treks. The original series was my favorite, but I found Voyager, and the first two seasons of Enterprise watchable.

Data drove me away from TNG. I think Roddenberry too mechanically carried over a character from The Questor Tapes. As a serious character, Data suffered from the unmotivated desire to be "human." There was nothing else for the robot in the other series to be. But there were more options in the Trek universe, so I couldn't buy into this. The show insisted on it, I think. And that seems like an excellent example of a forced POV turning me off. A similar character, the EMH in Voyager, was essentially a comic character, so it wasn't as alienating. Even there, practically every EMH episode that took him seriously failed. In my opinion, naturally.

As to the Moore post you cite, if this was a politically motivated group, I could and would rip it to shreds. For just one tiny example of the many, many problematic things in that blog, let me remind you that Adama, at the conclusion of "Litmus," talks to the chief. Essentially, he says that he knows there's something fishy about the chief's story but, he needs his ships to fly, so the chief stays. (By the way, the notion that all those people would lie is really hard to swallow!) And of course, the outcome ensures that Boomer escapes detection! Moore's claims Adama's attempt to ensure justice against a witch hunt is flatly contradicted by the episode on screen! I really think the blog is just a bunch of BS.

Farewell,

pm

dosed150
August 21st, 2005, 02:35 AM
is it just me or is boomer becoming like fifth before carter betrayed him shes a lot more human than the other cylons do you think in the future some of the boomers will switch their loyalty because they seem to have more in common with humans than the other cylons if anyone finds out about baltar he is so screwed he has two big secrets that make him look like a traitor him letting a cylon into fleet data and not declaring boomer as a cylon callie is really becoming quite a major character but doesnt she realise by killing boomer the chief will never want her or not even talk to her ever again i really think kobol had an effect on the people who went down there like no. 6 said there is something evil about kobol

Ariadne
August 21st, 2005, 12:43 PM
Damn. Best episode of the season so far I think. Gah. It’s almost too hard to pick a favorite episode in this series. Though it could have done without the little Starbuck/hunky model boy pick-up Pyramid game. :P

*bows down* Truer words were never spoken. MY GODS, it was awesome!!! :D I gotta tell ya though, I like Anders. He's tough. Not the cutsie type like Apollo is, even when he tries to be totally tough and punch out Starbuck. Best type for Kara cuz he knows how to survive and he doesn't get up in Kara's face about everything because frankly he could care less.

Apollo has so many complicated traits, so much history. While they've had some great moments, e.g. the garden hose fight on Colonial Day and her calling out his name when with Baltar (I nearly died when I saw that. My eyes were 2mm from the screen).

LoneStar1836
August 22nd, 2005, 09:51 PM
BUT...if Lee considers what was done with the attempted "coup" and Roslin's imprisonment "illegal" and thus his own imprisonment illegal then in point of fact, much like a prisoner of war of a foreign country, he'd have a duty to attempt to escape when outside the hours of his parole.True. But to me he had given his word of honor to not attempt to free Roslin in return for his release. Period. At least that is how I interpret the agreement.

Parole- a promise made with or confirmed by a pledge of one's honor; especially: the promise of a prisoner of war to fulfill stated conditions in consideration of his release

Lee should have never agreed to report for any kind of official duty then if he were truly upholding his principles. As protest, he should have refused to continue his duties as CAG, especially after martial law was officially declared in “Fragged”. I’m sure he initially carried on out of loyalty to his pilots, but once Tigh had officially declared martial law, Lee should have refused to continue to report for duty and thus give up his freedom of movement.

Also you have to take into consideration when he gave his parole AND Tigh's actions AFTERWARDS. When Lee gave his parole Tigh had not declared Martial Law. When Tigh did that, that basically made Lee's parole null and void. He gave his parole as an officer in a military under a government that operated under the Articles he'd sworn allegiance too--when Tigh unilaterally declared Martial Law he broke the Articles and so Lee was no longer really under an obligation to listen to him. Whereas by the Articles, he did have an obligation to free the rightful President of the Colonies from under the imprisonment of an illegal Martial government.During the American Civil War there did exist a system for exchange of prisoners early on. One side or the other might have an excess of prisoners that prevented an even exchange of prisoners, but all captured prisoners were released in the exchanges, but the excess prisoners were released on parole. They agreed in principle on their word of honor to not take up arms until they had been fairly exchanged for an enemy soldier. Now these soldiers had no obligation to uphold anything the other side said because neither side recognized the legitimacy of the other one’s government in that the Union was guided by the Constitution of the United States while the Confederacy adopted the Constitution of the Confederate States of America, but apparently efforts were made to honor such parole agreements because they had given their word. (article (http://www.civilwarhome.com/prisoners.htm) about prisoners in the Civil War)

So in essence, I can’t let Lee off the hook that easy in regards to what it means when you agree to terms of a parole.

Course all that’s just my personal opinion. I’m not saying yours is wrong. Just trying to defend mine. :)

SemperFidelis
January 31st, 2006, 04:06 PM
We in the UK have just seen this episode tonight and I am completely shocked. The characters in the rendition of Battlestar Galactica must be addicted to drugs. I have seen many posts criticising Colonel Tigh but I feel that they are unfair criticisms. Whereas there are far more dangerous people such as Roslin and Baltar.

Tigh was forced into declaring Martial Law because Roslin had been deemed as some sort of Prophet by the Quorum of 12. He couldn't maintain a relationship with a civilian government if their sole demand is to release Roslin and follow her on her dangerous endeavours. Therefore, Tigh needed to take control so that the fleet has some sort of leadership. Also, Tigh is very loyal to Adama and it is his loyalty that forced him to declare Martial Law. Adama arrested Roslin. If Tigh released Roslin and worked with her he would be betraying Adama. I admit that Tigh's drinking and his wife's manipulation are of concern but I do not believe he has done anything that is reprehensible.

I believe Tigh should have had a meeting with the Captain's of the fleet before sending in the marines, but I suspect that it would have been a waste of time. His mistake was not giving clearer orders and prioritising with the manpower rather than using untrained people in a volatile situation. But in the end I would have sent in the marines also. The Captain of the Tillium ship stupidly refused to supply galactica until they were being represented in government. How is a representative from the Tillium ship going to save them from the Cylons? The Cylons are out to destroy the colonials and would not hesitate at any opportunity. Does the Captain of the Tillium ship want to cripple the fleets only means of defence by not supplying Galactica. Do these people know they are on the run from a merciless enemy or are they in a constantly drug induced state. Have they resolved that suicide is the best course of action? By refusing to supply the Galactica they are effectively endangering the fleet and I would not shed a tear at the deaths of such dangerous traitors.

Tigh is right to suspect Tyrol of being a Cylon. Tyrol has used poor judgment when it came to Sharon and was very close to her. It is natural that suspicion will fall on him. Tigh is trying to look after the security of the fleet that means if there is a potential cylon the person must be completely investigated. Also, Baltar declared Sharon as human so why wouldn't you suspect Tyrol if you are Tigh. I am more concerned about Callie's behaviour. No one suspected Sharon of being a Cylon so I definitely couldn't say for sure that Tyrol wasn't. How can she be so sure unless she knows more than she is letting on.

Apollo has completely disgusted me. The original series Apollo always did what was right for the fleet. This Apollo has very poor judgment. Does he really believe that dividing the fleet in this way is beneficial? Anyone who follows Roslin will be undefended against the Cylons and could also take away essential resources from the Galactica, making her far weaker than she already is against the cylons. The Articles of colonisation no longer exist: there are no more colonies. Roslin interfered in Adama's jurisdiction and betrayed him. Does Apollo have no 'true' sense of honour. He had betrayed the uniform he wears.

Roslin is taking on the role of some sort of prophet or messaih, which is very worrying. She has become some sort of religious icon which can only divide the people. Look at history, religion has only divided people and never brought them together. She is becoming an inspiration for fanatics and extremists. Indeed, she has been effective in breeding disloyalty within the galactica with the marines. I believe they are compelled by her because they see her as a prophet rather than the lawful governor of the fleet. Personally, if my whole civilisation was on the brink of extiction I would not believe in gods and any prophecy. Unless there was a prophecy of the destruction of the twelve colonies how can anyone trust their security and life to a phrophecy that a dying leader will lead them to salvation? If she was a good leader she would try to calm the people and slowly regain Adama's trust to be placed in the big chair again. What she is doing is dangerous. More dangerous than anything Tigh has done.

Baltar is growing more and more evil, in my opinion. Many people have questioned whether Sharon was telling the truth when she stated there are only 8 cylons in the fleet. I have a different feeling about the whole sequence. I believe Baltar wasn't really interested in how many cylons there are. His cylon detector works, so he can find out how many cylons there are by doing some work. I think he was trying to find out if cylon Sharon really loved Tyrol so that she would give an answer to his question. If cylon Sharon really loves Tyrol then Baltar will believe that Six really loves him and wasn't just using him to destroy humanity. Baltar seems to liking the idea of having a family with Six, even though she is a cylon. He is becoming the Baltar of the original series bit by bit.

I hope that with Adama's return things will settle and the disloyal actions of many galactica crew members will cease.

Matt G
January 31st, 2006, 04:40 PM
Well just when I thought the Colonials couldn't get any more fracked...

1. Paranoia appears to be rife pretty much everywhere.

2. Haven't a clue what Baltar's up to but it probably isn't good.

3. We have Adama, Tigh and Galactica on oner side and Apollo, Roslin and Zarek on the other. I'm sympathetic to both sides and haven't a clue who to root for.

4. And boy I hope Tigh gets roasted by Adama, mate or not, Saul's put the fleet in very deep cack.

beale947
January 31st, 2006, 11:56 PM
I hope he doesn't Tigh is in command and they were his only opitions. He is doing his best, and he isn't ready for a command yet, so he is under pressure. And baltar i hope soon he does something redeeming, and just lying all the time.

triabita
February 1st, 2006, 01:52 AM
uhmm, can the moderators fix the date?
It is not August 17th 2005! This is very confusing =)

Matt G
February 1st, 2006, 03:23 PM
And baltar i hope soon he does something redeeming, and just lying all the time.

Cold day in hell mate!

Madeleine
February 4th, 2006, 09:25 PM
Baltar is growing more and more evil, in my opinion. Many people have questioned whether Sharon was telling the truth when she stated there are only 8 cylons in the fleet. I have a different feeling about the whole sequence. I believe Baltar wasn't really interested in how many cylons there are. His cylon detector works, so he can find out how many cylons there are by doing some work. I think he was trying to find out if cylon Sharon really loved Tyrol so that she would give an answer to his question. If cylon Sharon really loves Tyrol then Baltar will believe that Six really loves him and wasn't just using him to destroy humanity. Baltar seems to liking the idea of having a family with Six, even though she is a cylon. He is becoming the Baltar of the original series bit by bit.

I like your take on Baltar, especially the bit I highlighted. That adds more depth to baltar. Evil characters need humanising features like that to give them depth.

Billy's epiphany was too little too late, but I hope that it's something that leads to more. He's sweet, but I think there's some bite in him somewhere and i'd like to see what it takes to bring that out.

Apollo broke parole! That's more shocking to me than his original betrayal or than the action that he took once he broke parole. He gave his oath! :sholva:

MB.Eddie
November 7th, 2006, 08:55 AM
Meeting up with a resistant movement was cool. That scene where the crowd goes wild, and the marines fire was quite realistic imo. Baltar testing Sharon was quite interesting. Did he want to know if she did care, or did he really want the info? And what will he do with it now he's got both answers?

I dont really like all the deception, and helping Roslin escape. I dont like how she is putting all these religous ideas above the safety of the only large force of surviving humans.

It was good to see Adama rise again. You get the feeling that he will fix things asap. Tigh now also has a greater understanding, and loyalty to him aswell. I saw Sharon getting shot quite early though. Surprised she died so easy...

Angela V
January 16th, 2007, 12:14 AM
Awesome episode! I was so shocked to see Kayle shoot Boomer. But Then I wasn't surprised since she does have a thing for the Chief:).
I'm so glad my station seems to be airing the shows week after week with no breaks. I notice season 2 has 20 episodes so I still have a long way to go. I'm hoping the station can go right into season 3!

And I can't wait to find out what the heck the baby thing is all about (Baltar). Talk about weird!

Ishay
April 27th, 2009, 06:12 PM
hello sam :samanime51:

Ulkesh47
November 17th, 2010, 12:46 PM
For the first time in this rewatch, I can't tell who an episode is about, or focusing on. Is "Resistance" about...

- Tigh, and his command deficiencies, amplified by Ellen?
- Boomer, who died in the arms of the man she loves?
- Tyrol, who underwent a small emotional journey?
- Baltar, who is spurred to action by Head Six?
- Cally, who takes matters into her own hands and pulls a Jack Ruby?
- Roslin, who has finally escaped from captivity to lead a seditious force?

... and I haven't even mentioned the Caprica plot, so the bottom line is that a lot is going on this episode, and it's all the better for it. By the way, if anyone can decide between the above characters for who this ep focuses on, feel free to respond.

This is the best episode of the season thus far. A strong character piece that is chock-full of good personal scenes; I think that's why I found this episode better than "Scattered" or "Valley of Darkness": I found the character moments more compelling. Those two episodes had the action aspect, and this one I felt had better character material.

Later episodes that combine intense action with great characterization like "Exodus Part 2" and "The Hub" are the next step up in this progression of science fiction drama.

8/10

Professor_S
June 4th, 2011, 08:30 PM
As has been said before, there is just so much going in this ep... so much *awesome*, that is!! :D I really don't even know where to start. This is definitely the best ep of the first half of the season. It weaves together solid character development with intense action and nerve-wracking suspense.

The first time I saw this ep, I cannot tell you how happy I was to hear Adama's voice!! The scene between Tigh and Adama is amazing. Poignant. "Then we'll pick 'em up together."

Finally, I really liked the creative book-ends on this episode. Different, but very cool.

mrscopterdoc
June 19th, 2014, 12:56 PM
I was pleasantly surprised when Baltar shot the LT.