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GateWorld
July 26th, 2005, 06:44 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/2032.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px solid black" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888">GALACTICA SEASON TWO</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">FRAGGED</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 203</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
As Commander Adama lies near death, Colonel Tigh must face the civilian government -- who fear the commander was instigating a coup by arresting President Roslin.

<FONT SIZE=1><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s2/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Lt. Elliot
July 29th, 2005, 08:42 PM
So Fragged turned out to be a GOOD episode, I'm happy with that!

*Crazy Roslin. Scary to see her like that, but I still love her!
*Everything on Kobol was just wow
*FINALLY a ship is sent to Kobol's aid and they made it without being killed by those damn toasters
*I thinK Crashdown went nuts and wanted to do the plan because he has Socinus and Tarn's deaths on his hand - so it was he who turned on them? Or Cally for not doing it?
*Baltar shooting Crashdown, I was shocked, like :eek:
*Tigh! The frakker! I am so sick of him! Dismantling the Quorum of 12, martial law, and drunk as usual...at least Dee knew
*Ellen Tigh...what was she doing going to see Roslin...not cool at all, something up her sleeve. She's an evil manipulative Cylon-wannabe who wants Tigh in control of the fleet and Adama dead
*Adama will pull through (of course!)
*AND FINALLY! Roslin's little thing at the end about her being the leader, admitting her breast cancer to the Quorum and Tigh...I love her!
EDIT *I completely forgot about Number Six and her talk with Baltar..God has abandonded Kobol and he needs to be a man...so her definition of a man is someone who can murder? Considering we did invent murder per say and taught it to the Cylons (our children? I don't like hearing that)...OH! And he admitted it without the coercion of Number Six...he is an Instrument of God

I was sad there was no Helo/Starbuck on Caprica. A shame. Nontheless, 9/10 for sure. Next week: Resistance, which I really am looking forward to!!

microzstar
July 29th, 2005, 08:47 PM
This episode was amazing. When President Roslin told them all that she was the dying leader... that was such an incredible moment. Absolutely amazing, very inspiring. And it makes me happy to know that all the people are behind her- from what I can tell from the previews of the next episode, I suppose that's going to be thrown into sharp relief. Everyone's going to be behind the President. After all- who wouldn't want to go to Earth? Earth is pretty schnazzy, I gotta say.

I wonder what was up with Crashdown, though? Was he a Cylon, or was he just... screwed up? Why would he point the gun at Cally? I thought he liked her! Could he have been THAT MAD that she wasn't listening to him?

Lt. Elliot you're right- it was sad, no Helo or Starbuck! But I have a feeling we'll be seeing plenty of them next week. Mmhmm! Can't fricking wait!

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
July 29th, 2005, 08:52 PM
I predicted Crashdown was the one who would turn against the others, and I was right! :D And I'm glad Baltar killed him.

CKO
July 29th, 2005, 09:15 PM
okay it was official... i was totally insultin' tigh for his bein' such an arrogant. SOB.. he had no damned right to declare martial law like he did, course i think he was just a bit drunk when he declared martial law too.



next weeks looks good.

Redwall
July 29th, 2005, 09:30 PM
I saw that Crashdown was losing it, and I got that Six meant murder when she told Baltar to become a man, but somehow I didn't connect the two and was totally blown away when Baltar killed Crashdown. That got my attention and pulled it to the end -- I was ready to believe that the medic was dead, Cally was dead, the Chief was going to die...

Then, of course, the stuff on Galactica. I love Billy's conflict between his skepticism for religion and his loyalty to the President. Ellen Tigh is such a nice woman to hate; with Baltar getting into religion now, the show was missing a character who is completely selfish. Poor Colonel Tigh, though. He really tries, but he's just in over his head.

I didn't even realize there was no Starbuck/Helo (not to mention Boomer) until about fifteen minutes after the episode ended, so kudos for that.

microzstar
July 29th, 2005, 09:30 PM
Yeah, Tigh was really, really off-kilter. He told Adama that he'd "really frakked things up" for him, and then he went off... and frakked things up more. Very logical of him. Hmph. And so much for it being ADAMA's ship- at the end, remember he said something along the lines of "get them the hell off of my ship!" Hmmmm... he needs a good biotchslap, I think.

CKO
July 29th, 2005, 10:14 PM
yes that was wrong of him to do that... it sure as hell ain't his (tigh's ) ship til the old man dies.

yes, 'get then the hell of of my ship' indeed... he needs to clear his head of the damned alochol thats hazin' his clear thinkin'

sharky277
July 29th, 2005, 10:22 PM
A few things...

I think Crashdown was going crazy becayse he probably things it was hi fault the two people died because he refused to check the med kits before they left. And he didn't want to lose anyone else due to Kally not following orders. I also think he was just a bad leader who couldm't handle the job.

Was Roslin going insane because of the pain of the cancer causing her to not be able to think or was it the Kamala's side effects? I tend to think the former because didn't she want more Kamala to stop the pain?

I think what caused to Tigh to come crumbling down and give in to drinking was being told that Adama was getting worse and he being told by Doc Codle that he might not make it. He just went through a bording then, what he thought was an Adama that was going to pull through, starts to get worse and no one reasurred him he would pull through, unlike the medic on the first surgery who was optomistic. Then because of the drinking his behaviors becomes odder and odder until he finally loses controll of the situation and himself and makes the worse decision to delcare matial law.

I'm guessing from the Raptor saving the survivors on Kobol is that they do infact have some sort of armarment such as a missle or two.

sharky277
July 29th, 2005, 10:30 PM
Oh, and where's the podcast? I REALLY want to listen to it.

Liebestraume
July 29th, 2005, 11:16 PM
Ah, here is the thread! :)

I don't think this episode is as enjoyable as the previous two (dodging flying objects :p), but it was a good one nonetheless.

My respect for Tyrol grows with each passing week. He knew Crashdown was not qualified for command but showed the respect due to his rank nonetheless. He made the appropriate command decisions, once in the position, and was willing to sacrifice his own life to draw enemy fires away from the others. Though I don't quite understand why he covered up for Baltar at the end, somehow it was consistent with his characterization. Recall his steadfast refusal to reveal Boomer's secret -- perhaps it had been more than his love of her at play there.

Baltar's experience on Kobol will surely make him a much more formidable foe. He had never fired a gun before, and the idea of taking lives obviously repulsed him. Yet he was the only one who pulled the trigger on his own people (because, frankly, I doubt Crashdown would have pulled the trigger on Cally, as crazed as he seemed). What he did probably saved all of their lives, but I suspect the only one on his mind was his own. I never thought he had that much "guts" in him -- don't know if I should be pleasantly surprised or seriously disturbed.

Tigh is just as inept as everyone suspected when it comes to civillian affairs, and it was extremely sad to watch an otherwise good man's descension. I truly believe that he had no design on power and would like to run things exactly the way Adama would have wanted it. But he was driven by fear (and Lady MacBeth) and his declaration of Martial Law was an act of pure desparation. At the end, Tigh did exactly what he knew he shouldn't do -- declare Martial Law and sinking further into alcoholism.

And speaking of Tigh's alcoholism, I thought it made a nice contrast to Roslin's dependency on Kalmala (sp??). In a way, I don't know which is worse -- a military dictatorship run by an alcoholic, or a theocracy led by an addict. Either way one looks at it, the rag-tag fleet is truly fracked.

sharky277
July 29th, 2005, 11:21 PM
Maybe part of Six's plan for Baltar was get him to become a man and shoot someone so that, because Adama has been shown as the main adversary to him, when the time comes, he can kill him and it wont be as hard since he has already killed.

Blade Runner
July 30th, 2005, 04:07 AM
This episode blew my mind, best one this season which goes to show that you can make a great show even better. It was well written, tight and focused, there wasnt a dull moment. These last few episodes have really fleshed out the characters a lot and given them much more depth and as usual moving the story on by giving us something else to think about

I did'nt even notice there was no Starbuck until afterwards

Nice to see Racetrack in the cockpit again, she looks great in a flightsuit

Doc Cottle, what a great character he plays

Roslin was going nuts because of the withdrawel symptoms of the Chamalla and Mary acted those scenes so well.

Carbito
July 30th, 2005, 05:37 AM
Great episode! This show just keeps on getting better, I can't wait to see what happens next (I'm trying to remain spoiler free so I don't read the episode guides for BSG if I can help it).

keshou
July 30th, 2005, 07:08 AM
I didn't think this episode was as good as the first two either Liebestraume. No tomatoes from me. ;)

But - there were plenty of highlights.

*Tigh. Egads, is there anything worse than an alcoholic military dictator? Great character though.

*Kobol. The scenes on Kobol were the highlight of the episode. I always liked Tyrol and I'm so glad to see Aaron Douglas getting some meaty scenes. I just love him. Great stuff with Crashdown, Tyrol, Callie, Baltar, etc. I knew Crashdown was going down just didn't know how it was going to happen. I really love the realism they add in for these scenes. The officer who really shouldn't be an officer, the scared and inexperienced soldiers, the hero who should be in charge but isnt. Interesting that there's as much characterization for all the periphery characters on this show as there is for major characters on other shows.

*Baltar. Very intriguing. He seemed to be turning a corner here and accepting his responsibility has an "instrument of God". I suspect we're going to be seeing some interesting developments coming up for him.

*Roslin. Surprising, but ultimately very canny, move she made to disclose her illness to the press. That is going to reinforce her position as a sort of "joan of arc" for the people. I think she's going to be a major force to reckon with.

*Adama. Well he just needs to wake up, doesn't he? Can't wait to see what he makes of everything going on with Tigh, Roslin, Lee, etc.

Missed seeing Kara and Helo. Hope they're back next week.

You know - even a subpar episode of BSG still rocks. Best show of the night. :D

LoneStar1836
July 30th, 2005, 09:22 AM
This episode not as good? Say what? *Tosses fluffy kittens at Liebestraume and Kes * :P:D

Another excellent episode. Not quite as hectic or grabbing as the previous two, but still great nonetheless. It moved the story along and had great characterization. I’m glad they went ahead and focused on Kobol and resolved that particular storyline. Not that I didn’t think they did a fine job with that subplot, but I think it had run its course.

I was guessing someone else was going to die before they got off that planet, but I refused to make a guess since I didn’t want anyone to. Guess I should have known it would be Crashdown since the title of the episode was “Fragged”. Kind of a dead giveaway there now that I think about it……… Poor Crashdown. :( I almost felt like shedding a tear for him when Baltar killed him. I liked Crash. I just hate how they made him into a complete SOB and had him wack out at the end like that. He and Tigh reached their breaking points tonight.

Jeez I’m not sure if Tigh could have possibly had anymore to drink than he did tonight. Though I guess I can’t blame him. If put in his position, it would probably drive me to the bottle as well. This man really does not crave power (obviously Crashdown didn’t crave power either, he just didn’t have the luxury of a bottle). When Adama wakes up, all hell is going to come down on Tigh. I wouldn’t be surprised if Adama relives him of duty till he can get himself together even though Tigh is a critical asset when it comes to defending the ship and the fleet.

I just love to hate Ellen Tigh.

Tyrol was great throughout this whole time on Kobol as were all the secondary characters including the poor redshirts. I love how this show is not confined to just the main credit characters. These secondary characters are as equally interesting and “real” as the main characters, and I never once though “let’s get off these people and get back to the Lee or Starbuck, etc. storyline”. After seeing the long preview commercial on NBC after they aired BSG a couple of weeks ago, Tyrol doesn’t look like he’s heading back to Galactica for some much needed R&R. They had a “Saving Private Ryan” moment there at the end with Tyrol hopelessly shooting at the Cylons and then boom! with Lee swooping in to make the kill. Took me a while to think of what movie that came from since it seemed so familiar.

Hehe. Cally's reason for joining the military: to pay for dental school. :D I love those little touches. She's a great character and *gasp* she's a woman. These writers really have the ability to write well developed women characters rather than stereotypes.

Even though Lee was kind of a side note in this episode, he had some great lines directed at Tigh when they were in CIC. Heh. I wonder if Tigh even heard him when Lee sarcastically said back to him something to the fact that well “this is the sh*t that comes with being in command of a battlestar”. I can’t remember what the exact line was though. Where’s a transcript when you need one…….. Ah, found it on another message board. "Demanding job. Commanding a battlestar." Loved that little snark from him. :D


Baltar's experience on Kobol will surely make him a much more formidable foe. He had never fired a gun before, and the idea of taking lives obviously repulsed him. Yet he was the only one who pulled the trigger on his own people (because, frankly, I doubt Crashdown would have pulled the trigger on Cally, as crazed as he seemed). What he did probably saved all of their lives, but I suspect the only one on his mind was his own. I never thought he had that much "guts" in him -- don't know if I should be pleasantly surprised or seriously disturbed.Great thoughts. I’m pretty sure Baltar was acting purely out of self-preservation. He didn’t care about the others when he shot Crash. Hadn’t Six already told him that what happened on Kobol was not god’s concern thus kind of implying that Baltar was not really under Six’s or god’s protection. That it was in fact possible that he could die on Kobol even though he had been deemed “an instrument of god.” Even his “nice” act of painting Crash as a hero and not as someone who had just fallen apart and disgraced himself on Kobol was probably not what it seemed. Baltar probably didn’t want to have to face questioning as to why he shot him, etc. On the outside it seemed like a way to preserve Crashdown’s character as an honorable man and that’s why Tyrol went along with Baltar, but I think Baltar had other reasons for saying what he did.

Now that Baltar has killed, I think it is rather disturbing because now that he has done it, he might not have many qualms about doing it again. That’s why he needs to be watched like a hawk because I wouldn’t put it past him to try and kill Adama after his dream.

Six to Baltar: “I’ll be your conscience.” *shudder*

I can’t wait for next week’s.

SGalisa
July 30th, 2005, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by LoneStar1836:
I just love to hate Ellen Tigh.I think she's really a cylon... Baltar never *really* revealed the truth about her. ;)

Laura, President Roslin... wow! great performance there. Is the cancer spreading to her brain, or is that a side effect from the medicine she's on?

Tigh... I thought I liked him... Not so sure any more.

Zarak... I was amazed that he really looked a bit awed by the whole President Laura Roslin being a dying prophet scenario. Not that I really care, but I wonder which way the wind will turn in his mind now, based on this new info... ;)

Personally, I really like "Chief" and Kelly. I liked Chief's emotional decision torments, when he had to deal with the major fire scene on Galactica in early of Season 1. He represents the heart of a true fireman, during and after rescue missions go well or astray.

Anyway, for the other short scene times that Kelly and "Chief" do get, I think both of them give more heart and soul into what's happening, yet are overshadowed by the bigger names like Starbuck and Adama storylines. Gosh, if Crashdown shot either one of them, that'd really be the end of an intense storyline.
========

...anyway, TPTB brought back that awful violin music in their preview commercials. I liked the dramatic drum version much better. It fit the intensity of what the program is currently about. Of course, someone else might argue that the violin version personifies the dramatic soap opera-nish effects... *sigh* can't have everything right.

Zinfer
July 30th, 2005, 03:12 PM
I could tell Crashdown had lost it after he told the chief he needed to calm down. I think it was Post Traumatic Stress. When he was giving the graphs it really felt like he was rehearsing it more for himself than anyone else there. He was completely in panick mode and not in a good leadership position. A leader emits confidence and direction. If anyone was the leader, it was Chief, unfortunately Crashdown outranked him.
I honestly felt if Baltar had not fragged him, the Chief would have. Cally and chief had been through too much and she was one of his people. I've seen this kind of thing before where a change in plans at the last minute upsets the whole board for the planner and the only rationale in not changing the plan is because he had already made this plan and it was going to be followed out regardless of right or wrong. It was a stupid plan from the beginning. They all would have perished.
As for Tigh? I am really mystified. I thought I had a grip on his character. I actually kind of enjoyed his blustering hard-assness up until this. He's gone completely over the deep end. Wanting to lock up everybody, yelling profanities at the top of his voice, What rescue operation? answering the phone obviously drunk. I felt for him when he talked to the old man saying he'd really frakked things up for him, but then he up and makes it even worse!? I think were missing a scene there or something which drives him to martial law. I'm missing something. I honestly felt the right thing for him to have done would have been to release Roslin and restore her presidency after her prophetic announcement and declaration that she was dieing. Prison is no place for a dieing President.
What are they trying to do? Drive him off the show? Between him and his wife he has no business being second in command. What if Adama HAD died? At this point the character has very little redeeming value. I keep hoping we get to see the other side of Tigh that Adama sees, but it never happens. Despite wanting to believe Tigh is a good guy he starts acting goofy drunk with a gold-digging, manipulative, adulterous wife that can't be trusted, (that when this is all over needs to be either jettisoned out a cargo bay or sent packing back to the rising star)arguing and bickering with every character on the ship, even Adama himself, and an excellent candidate for Fragging.
It almost seems like the writers are TRYING to make you dislike him.
Just when I think I got Tigh figured out to the point of likeability, they throw him completely out of character to the extreme point that every character in the show and even the audience view him with distain. I thought I had my finger on him and it is so frustrating when I just throw my hands in the air and exclaim 'Who knows'. I give up trying to figure him out.
And Lee, with the standoff between the president and Tigh, I wouldn't doubt at all that Adama will or was going to reduce him in rank, brig time or perhaps even busting him out of the service (except for the their need of good pilots). I'm talking severe punishment.
But I do think that Lee was right, that when Adama does awake it's going to be something like 'You did what? What the hell have you done?!' To the point that niether one of them is fit to wear the uniform. I think they'll both get busted. As for Roslin, I have no idea why Cmdr. Adama felt he could just up and terminate a Presidency. That is the sin which led to all this other felgercarb.
But alak and alas maybe my idea of President and their's is different. The system I am accustomed to is that the President is the Commander in Chief and Adama's superior. They reached a summit where Adama is responsible for the military operations. But this is one of those grey areas I guess. Him and her need to talk, but to just terminate a Presidency and government?

Wow, that was long.

Liebestraume
July 30th, 2005, 04:04 PM
You know - even a subpar episode of BSG still rocks. Best show of the night. :DAbsolutely, and entirely because -- as you said -- the superb characterization for even the periphery characters.


I almost felt like shedding a tear for him when Baltar killed him. I liked Crash. I just hate how they made him into a complete SOB and had him wack out at the end like that.I too had developed a serious dislike for Crashdown in VoD but somehow mustered a lot of sympathy for him in the end. He never seemed that bright and, more importantly, was not prepared for command. Seeing his valiant attempt at shouldering that responsibility was quite heartbreaking (especially when he was going through those 5 "graphs").


When Adama wakes up, all hell is going to come down on Tigh. I wouldn’t be surprised if Adama relives him of duty till he can get himself together even though Tigh is a critical asset when it comes to defending the ship and the fleet.That's a really interesting point. In a way, Adama's responsiblity for this mess went beyond the "coup." He was solely responsible for putting Tigh in that command position, while (I am sure) being a shrewed enough observer of Tigh's distain for civillians (and his ineptitude in dealing with them). I love the Old Man, but he's got something thinkin' to do once he comes around.


Hehe. Cally's reason for joining the military: to pay for dental school. :D I love those little touches.That was just so cute. And so human, making a commitment without being prepared for what that commitment actually entails. Guess that could be said for the lot of them.


Even though Lee was kind of a side note in this episode, he had some great lines directed at Tigh when they were in CIC. ... and he cleaned up so good! :D


Between [Tigh] and his wife he has no business being second in command. What if Adama HAD died? At this point the character has very little redeeming value. I keep hoping we get to see the other side of Tigh that Adama sees, but it never happens.Perhasps it did happen. IMHO Tigh had been quite competent on the military side of the affairs in the last two episodes, all things considered. He just never seemed to have an understanding of and healthy respect for democracy. Under their "normal" circumstances, this probably wouldn't have mattered too much ...

... guess none of them was prepared for the annihilation of their civilization. :(

sharky277
July 30th, 2005, 06:26 PM
There still one lingering question...

Where's the podcast?

entil2001
July 30th, 2005, 08:34 PM
Every time I think that things can’t get worse for the Colonials, the writers up the ante. This time, it’s all about the interplay of the plot threads on Galactica and Kobol. As situations go completely downhill, it’s all about how fortunes change, present and future. Tigh’s decisions lead to Roslin’s unexpected return to power as a spiritual leader and another step towards a conflict between religious and warrior factions, which is always a lot of fun. Meanwhile, Crashdown’s inevitable loss of perspective leads to a disturbing consequence involving Baltar.

I suppose it was inevitable that Tigh would return to his drinking, and it sure as hell doesn’t help him make better decisions! It’s not very helpful that the entire crew seems to know that he’s losing stability, thanks to his past history, and that they don’t feel like they can do anything about it. After all, what would they do? They’re already reeling from the loss of Adama’s strong and consistent leadership. There’s really no one else that they could rally support behind, is there?

Except Roslin, of course, and that’s the problem. Tigh has never respected Roslin, and apparently, he respects the whole idea of the Scrolls of Phylia even less. But when people are seeking a sense of direction, religious leaders are particularly compelling. Roslin also knows the value of when to claim some kind of foretold authority. She truly believes herself to be the instrument of the Lords of Kobol, and what’s more, the Quorum of Twelve believes her.

So Adama basically threw down the gauntlet, because the “religious leader” compelled one of his warriors to defy orders. The response was the assumption of total control by Adama, who was then the victim of a brutal attempt on his life by the enemy. Now the reversal of fortune is in play: Roslin is regaining a purpose and political strength, while the military leadership struggles to retain control. Tigh is simply not Roslin’s equal, and so rather than convince others of the strength of his political stance, he seeks to impose his will.

While Roslin believes that she is following the Lords of Kobol, Baltar continues to operate under the impression that he is the instrument of God. Of course, he has no idea what God wants of him, other than the fact that he is meant to embrace the more violent aspects of his humanity. This is perhaps indicative of how the Cylons think, but that’s not necessarily a given. It’s what Six wants Baltar to hear, and that’s about all I get out of it.

Whatever the case, the question I have in my mind is how Baltar’s ongoing conversion is going to be used to support Roslin or transform her message into something that will benefit the Cylons. If Six is not speaking for the rest of the Cylons, then it’s even more of a blurred picture. It feels like Baltar is being honed into an instrument, a willing strike at the heart of the Colonials. Beyond that, there’s still a lot of story to be told before motivations are likely to be clarified.

If Ellen Tigh is a Cylon, as strongly hinted in the first season, then it makes sense that she would want her husband to take control. He’s so far out of his depth that his “leadership” would be catastrophic. Undermining Roslin was her apparent goal (and that once again suggests that Baltar is being groomed to pervert or subvert her message). How much worse would it be if she turned out to be simply human, indulging some love of chaos?

The end of the struggle on Kobol came together quite nicely. I never expected things to get quite so intense, but then, I suppose I should have known better. I really believed that Crashdown would shoot Kally right then and there! I love how things get out of hand, even within the structure of a rather predictable resolution. I expected the Colonials to save the SAR team at the last possible moment, and for the Raptors to arrive when all seemed lost. It’s how the writers managed to sneak in a little doubt that made the episode for me.

With the Kobol situation more or less over, I expect that the next episode will actually bring an update of the situation on Caprica. The prophecies related to the Arrow and the Temple were mentioned again, so clearly that’s something that will continue to unfold. And then there’s the timetable suggested by Roslin’s admission of impending death. If she is the foretold leader, then she’s got very little time to point the Colonials towards Earth. My bet is that the entire season will be the process of getting to that part of the tale.

Agent_Dark
July 30th, 2005, 10:33 PM
Though I don't quite understand why he covered up for Baltar at the end, somehow it was consistent with his characterization.
He probably doesn't want everyone to remember Crashdown as the 'The crazy pilot who nearly shot Cally'. Crashdown was a good guy, someone the Cheif probably respected, just in way over his head and not being able to handle the pressure. Which is why he went a bit whacko at the end there.
Covering it up keeps Crashdown's reputation intact - something that's probably important to the other pilots. Considering how many they've lost in a short time (Starbuck's AWOL, Boomer's a Cylon, Apollo is under house arrest, not to mention the deaths in combat in the past few days) they dont really need any more blows to their morale.

boodoosy
July 31st, 2005, 01:20 AM
Wow, it is wonderful to finally find a group do discuss BSG! I absolutely LOVE the show and look forward to each new episode.
I have read all of the posts about Fragged, and I agree that although it isn't the best episode, it is still a very good episode. All of the posts pretty much answered my questions except for one. How did Six know what was going to happen? She accurately predicted that someone would turn against everyone else. Is she a prophet? Can she see predict the future of humans?

BooDooSy

kiwigater
July 31st, 2005, 03:47 AM
Yes, definitely one of the best shows on TV :D
And I also agree, I enjoyed the first two eps more, but that doesn't mean I thought this ep was horrible - some really impressive character development. Part of me was just screaming at Tryol to whack Crashdown on the head and take command, clearly Crashdown had no business being in command - but then again, how accurately does that reflect the real military..... :S

Yes, love to hate Ellen, and Tigh for that matter too, a barely decent human being - I'm starting to get itchy for Adama to get back into, he's been out 3 eps already :S (yeah, yeah, shot in chest, life in balance, acceptable excuse I guess :p ).

I missed Kara and Helo on Caprica, about half way thru I was wanting to see what was up with them, hopefully we get more next week to balance it. Also we haven't seen Galactica Sharon this week (was she on last week either :confused: ??).

I'm all for democracy etc, but it seems to me that this is hardly the time to have 12 people with god(s) :p knows what backgrounds running things - the sadistic side of me says "frak the civilians, if they don't want Galactica in charge, then fine, let's see how far they get without their protection...." :eek: (the rational voice in me points out that given the current circumstances which could last for years it makes sense to maintain a civilian elected government - especially if the other option is Tigh in charge :eek: ).

Yet again they're reflecting parts of own society back to us - when the "people" are involved, chances are you won't end up with the "democracy" you think you should. The question is how far are you willing to go to ensure that it's what you THINK it should be, or do you trust that people (with a few religious fanatics thrown in) to do what's best.... I don't know....

Zinfer
July 31st, 2005, 06:22 AM
I'm starting to get itchy for Adama to get back into, he's been out 3 eps already :S

I think it'll be a while before Adama comes back at full strength. You don't just split someone open, crack open their chest, use chest spreaders, massage their heart, remove their spleen and tie up God knows what else and expect them to jump right up out of bed and resume command.
Whenever chest spreaders are used it's a long and painful recovery time.
And as the Doc was saying, it was a mess in there after the pharmacist performed the first surgery.

I don't think Ellen is a Cylon. But she's always a dark influence. Definitely hungry for power. If you'll recall she was even after Tom Zerek in his rise to power. But it is interesting that he asked her about a 'friend' of his and shortly thereafter that 'friend' turned up dead. She is a real instigator between Tigh and Adama. It'd be nice if they'd finally wrap up 'Colonial Day' with who the killer was. I think the only motivating power in her being so interested in seeing the downfall of Roslin as she very clearly suggested and 'instigated' Tigh to bring the Quarum and the press to Roslin at her percieved weakest was so that Tigh would be in full charge and control of the fleet. Although what he'd do with it after that is beyond me in his constant inebriated and intoxicated state. I can't believe anyone would actually have to smell his breath, he'd just wreak of it all the time.
The thing that puzzles me is that Lee Adama had said in the previous episode way before Tigh had 'frakked things up' that the Commander would deal with the both of them. I thought that was a little out of place. It'd make more sense had it been said now. When Lee said it, I kind of took it like, well your the one with the cuffs on, in the brig, pointed a gun at your superiors' head, and threatening the life of a superior officer, your rear end is in the fire, not Tigh's-who was following orders the entire time. But had that comment been made NOW it would make sense. Tigh announced to the Quarum that Adama hated and would never declare martial law. Tigh understood throughout the last two episodes that it was the old mans' ship and his last orders and wishes are the Gods' while he was still alive. Then in practically the next scene Tigh then does exactly that. Declares Marial Law. Wierd.

LoneStar1836
July 31st, 2005, 08:56 AM
Wow, it is wonderful to finally find a group do discuss BSG! I absolutely LOVE the show and look forward to each new episode. {snip} How did Six know what was going to happen? She accurately predicted that someone would turn against everyone else. Is she a prophet? Can she see predict the future of humans?

BooDooSyWelcome to the board. :)

Six more or less planted the idea in Baltar’s head that someone would turn on the others. She didn’t say who. So Baltar took this, being the self-preservationist he is, to mean that this person could endanger his life. So as soon as Crash pulled the gun on Cally, Baltar probably just figured it was he whom Six was warning of and thus made the decision to shoot him. I’m not quite so sure she “knows” what is going to happen but rather she is manipulating Baltar's thoughts and action in order to produce the desired outcome.

You could make the argument that it was actually Baltar that turned on the rest of them. I mean he shot Crash in the back thus drawing the Centurions’ attention. I’m not really sure if Crash would have actually shot Cally. I’d like to hope that he would not have because you could see the anguish on his face. He was practically crying. (That will be another reason I’ll miss Crash cause I liked that actor. He was really good in these past 3 eps.) I’ll defend Crash because I do think that the missile battery did need to be taken out otherwise the Raptors would have been shot down, but he lost all reason in not taking Tyrol’s suggestion of taking out the dradis dish instead when there was a possibility that it was unguarded. Though actually they should have gone after the dradis dish in the first place because it only had two guards rather than three. I guess maybe there was the possibility that the missiles could still be aimed manually.


The thing that puzzles me is that Lee Adama had said in the previous episode way before Tigh had 'frakked things up' that the Commander would deal with the both of them. I thought that was a little out of place. It'd make more sense had it been said now. When Lee said it, I kind of took it like, well your the one with the cuffs on, in the brig, pointed a gun at your superiors' head, and threatening the life of a superior officer, your rear end is in the fire, not Tigh's-who was following orders the entire time. But had that comment been made NOW it would make sense.I think Lee made that comment because it is well known that Tigh is a drunk. Thus he really is unfit to wear the uniform because he can’t control his drinking and the last thing you need is a drunk XO on duty. Commander Adama and the crew of the Galactica more or less overlook that liability because Tigh is valuable when it comes to military matters.

Had to grin when Dee gave the little drinky-drinky sign to Gaeta who rolled his eyes when she was talking to a wasted Tigh on the phone.


Yes, I want my Adama back as well. But after what just happened to him, he'll probably be laid up for most of the first half of the season. Just a guess.

Liebestraume
July 31st, 2005, 11:04 AM
I think Lee made that comment because it is well known that Tigh is a drunk. Thus he really is unfit to wear the uniform because he can’t control his drinking and the last thing you need is a drunk XO on duty. Commander Adama and the crew of the Galactica more or less overlook that liability because Tigh is valuable when it comes to military matters.Now you start me (over)thinking :p again, I wonder if there is another layer to this.

Tigh is very loyal to The Old Man. He dutifully carries out Adama's orders, makes sure the ship operates smoothly, and generally keeps everyone in line. Plus he very valuable for all things military. All that makes him an excellent XO in the traditional sense.

But Lee has a very progressive mind, so he may consider Tigh's blind faith in Adama a liability -- rather than an asset -- to The Old Man. It could be argued that a second-in-command has the additional responsibility of being the conscience, the voice of reason when the judgment of the commander becomes impaired.

I can see that happening here. Though a strategic, rational man, Adama does let emotion overrun his better judgment when "family" is involved. We saw ample evidence of that in You Can't Go Home Again, and (I think) that's what drove him to dispose of Roslin in KLG. It should have been Tigh's responsibility to advise against it, but he never even tried. In that sense, he was indeed unfit for the position of XO.


He probably doesn't want everyone to remember Crashdown as the 'The crazy pilot who nearly shot Cally'. Crashdown was a good guy, someone the Cheif probably respected, just in way over his head and not being able to handle the pressure. Which is why he went a bit whacko at the end there.
Covering it up keeps Crashdown's reputation intact - something that's probably important to the other pilots. ...I agree. But, by so doing, Tyrol just truck a deal with the devil (so to speak). That uncomfortable secret between all of them is going to have ramifications down the road.

And those little non-verbal exchange between Tyrol and Baltar as well as the dialogue were just brilliant. In a way, they both lied without outright lying.

keshou
July 31st, 2005, 12:24 PM
But Lee has a very progressive mind, so he may consider Tigh's blind faith in Adama a liability -- rather than an asset -- to The Old Man. It could be argued that a second-in-command has the additional responsibility of being the conscience, the voice of reason when the judgment of the commander becomes impaired.

I can see that happening here. Though a strategic, rational man, Adama does let emotion overrun his better judgment when "family" is involved. We saw ample evidence of that in You Can't Go Home Again, and (I think) that's what drove him to dispose of Roslin in KLG. It should have been Tigh's responsibility to advise against it, but he never even tried. In that sense, he was indeed unfit for the position of XO.
I knew Lee considered Tigh to be unfit - certainly because of his alcoholism. But that he expects Tigh to be a sounding board and blames some of Adama's bad command decisions on Tigh could well be true. Certainly Tigh - a different Tigh, to be sure - could have guided Adama in a different direction when they chose to oust Roslin. Unfortunately Tigh isn't a "different" voice, he's just a flawed second in command who shouldn't have even risen that high in rank.

The question in my mind is what is Adama going to do when he wakes up. What will he think of Tigh's actions, the declaration of martial law? I think Adama will totally back Tigh. I think the rift between Adama and Lee will widen. :(


*snip lots of good stuff* I’m not really sure if Crash would have actually shot Cally. I’d like to hope that he would not have because you could see the anguish on his face. He was practically crying. (That will be another reason I’ll miss Crash cause I liked that actor. He was really good in these past 3 eps.) I’ll defend Crash because I do think that the missile battery did need to be taken out otherwise the Raptors would have been shot down, but he lost all reason in not taking Tyrol’s suggestion of taking out the dradis dish instead when there was a possibility that it was unguarded. Though actually they should have gone after the dradis dish in the first place because it only had two guards rather than three. I guess maybe there was the possibility that the missiles could still be aimed manually.
I find it hard to defend Crash. He was right about the missile battery needing to be taken out but the plan of taking on the Cylons head-on was so doomed to failure that it made no sense. Crash was military guy who went to officer's training school and never spent a day in the field in practical combat. Way over his head. He made mistake after mistake and he knew it. If he'd bothered to consult with the more experienced combat guy (Tyrol) as they went along they might could have come up with some sort of diversion plan that might have actually worked. Instead Crash risked everyone because of his ego. And he totally lost it at the end.

The actor who played Crash did a great job. And I love that they're willing to tell these type of stories. Great stuff. Reminds me of Band of Brothers or something. And that's a compliment of course. :D

LoneStar1836
July 31st, 2005, 12:42 PM
Now you start me (over)thinking :p again, I wonder if there is another layer to this.

Tigh is very loyal to The Old Man. He dutifully carries out Adama's orders, makes sure the ship operates smoothly, and generally keeps everyone in line. Plus he very valuable for all things military. All that makes him an excellent XO in the traditional sense.

But Lee has a very progressive mind, so he may consider Tigh's blind faith in Adama a liability -- rather than an asset -- to The Old Man. It could be argued that a second-in-command has the additional responsibility of being the conscience, the voice of reason when the judgment of the commander becomes impaired.

I can see that happening here. Though a strategic, rational man, Adama does let emotion overrun his better judgment when "family" is involved. We saw ample evidence of that in You Can't Go Home Again, and (I think) that's what drove him to dispose of Roslin in KLG. It should have been Tigh's responsibility to advise against it, but he never even tried. In that sense, he was indeed unfit for the position of XO.Hey, I like that even better than the obvious reason I gave. :D

That can be a liability if Tigh does blindly follow Adama, which apparently he does the majority of the time. He did question Adama’s decisions in You Can’t Go Home Again though, but I’ve yet to see him forcefully challenge decisions he knew were wrong. They had this little conversation in You Can’t Go Home Again, but obviously Adama just brushed him off and Tigh backed down like a scolded dog every time.

Adama: Are these figures correct?
Gaeta: Yes, sir, atmospheric ops mean that Viper and Raptor engines have to run continuously. Fuel's gonna be a real problem if we keep it up.
Adama: Any report from the civilian ships?
Tigh: Nothing. They're spread pretty far out. We're gonna have a hell of a time trying to cover them if the Cylons pop in. We should consider pulling the civvies into a defensible formation.
Adama: No... keep all the ships on the search. We've left enough people behind. I don't wanna leave Starbuck behind.
Tigh: I'm just saying, committing the entire fleet to this search-
Adama: I said no! We're gonna find our missing pilot! And we're gonna bring her home. We leave no one behind. Resume your duties.And a later conversation:
Gaeta: Here's the photo mosaic for the area we've searched so far.
Adama: We gotta do better than this.
Tigh: Can't see very far when you're hugging the ground.
Apollo: You can't see anything at all from altitude, not to mention the crap in the air that keeps screwing up our ships. 13 Vipers down for repairs.
Adama: We need more eyes.
Tigh: Yeah, where you gonna get 'em?
Apollo: Pull the CAP.
Tigh: What?
Apollo: Redeploy the combat air patrol to the search.
Tigh: Bad idea, the CAP is the fleet's only defense. If all our Vipers are frakin' around on the moon when the Cylons come calling, we're maggot meat.
Apollo: Well, then bring the fleet closer to the moon. We can always scramble the Vipers from the search to meet any attack.
Tigh: You gotta be kidding.
Apollo: Bottom line: we can double the area we can search in the time we have left.
Tigh: Starbuck would be the first one to tell you not to do this.
Apollo: Nothing would make you happier would it? Leave her behind, get rid of the foul-mouthed insubordinate pilot that keeps challenging your authority.
Tigh: You are way out of line, mister, I'm not the one confusing personal feelings with duty.
Apollo: Oh, yeah? What the hell does that mean?
Tigh: It means you are way too close to this because she is your friend-
Adama: Gentlemen! We have work to do. Captain, get as many birds up in the air as you can and you find our girl.
Apollo: You got it.And an even later conversation….I might as well quote the whole episode ;)……It’s interesting to go back and read this stuff now.
Gaeta: Blue flight reports bingo fuel, sir.
Adama: Have them stay on the search. Send the tanker to them. Is there a problem, Mr. Gaeta?
Gaeta: It's just that trying to tank in that turbulence, sir, will be extremely hairy. I suggest we wait until the clock has run down and then tank them up on the way back to Galactica.
Adama: Did someone call them back to Galactica?
Gaeta: I just assumed-
Adama: ...the search was over? That it was hopeless? That we should write Starbuck off as dead? Is that what you're telling me, Mr. Gaeta?
Gaeta: No, sir.
Adama: Then what are you trying to tell me, Mr. Gaeta? You have your orders.
Gaeta: Yes, sir.
Tigh: Time's up, she's out of O2.
Adama: The clock is a guess. We don't know for a fact Starbuck is out of air.
Tigh: Her tank only holds so much oxygen.
Adama: She could have a reserve supply in her survival gear.
Tigh: A reserve?
Adama: Yes.
Tigh: What, she just happened to pack an extra bottle today?
Adama: It's possible.
Tigh: We are putting people at risk. We have pilots out there who are pushing themselves and their ships too hard, all for the sake of-
Adama: We are not quitting. And you are relieved, Colonel.
Tigh: I stand relieved, sir.And later…………
Tigh: Are you gonna order us to stop the search?
Roslin: I came here to talk, not to give orders.
Tigh: It may take an order.
Roslin: Why? Colonel Tigh, do I need to know something?
Tigh: It's gone beyond military needs. It's personal. For the Commander and for Lee too. Because of Lieutenant Thrace. Because of her, and because of Zak Adama.
Roslin: The Commander's dead son?
Tigh: It's complicated. It would take about three weeks to explain.
Roslin: We've got about three minutes, talk fast.
Tigh obviously had his doubts, but no one would listen to him except Roslin. They were blinded by their personal feelings. Even Lee. It eventually took Roslin to make both Adamas see the error of their ways. This may be the only ep. so far that Tigh has questioned Adama’s decisions but obviously to little avail.

There was a moment when he did staunchly defend Adama when Roslin (in Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down) suggested to him the possibility that Adama was a Cylon, yet Tigh kept that little conversation to himself rather than tell Adama. I wonder why he didn’t.

I think we need a character discussion thread just for Tigh cause I'd never guess we'd talk about this man that much. :D

Zinfer
July 31st, 2005, 01:36 PM
Tigh questioned Adama's decisions before. It was in the very same episode of Tigh me up, Tigh me down, when Tigh suspected Adama was hot after his wife following more instigations by his drunken wife. A hilarious exchange between Roslin, Tigh, Adama, Baltar and Lee.
Now Tigh doesn't even need to question Adama's orders. His wife does it for him. Instigating yet another confrontation between Tigh and Adama concerning a 6 hour CIC after-hours schedule.
As a matter of fact, now that I think about it, hmm. Most of this is all Ellen's doing. She's the one that implicated Roslin was nuts and that Tigh SHOULD give access to the Quarum. If there hadn't been that presentation, the entire Martial Law event may not have happened.
So I guess we can all blame Ellen for this. She is really causing alot of malcontent. But I still contend she is a secondary compounding mistake. The first was Adama boarding Colonial 1, taking the President by force and locking up the President of the Colonies in the Galactica brig. I don't see how she and the Commander could ever look at each other in the same way again with any degree of trust.
This is wierd. After all, it was Adama's idea to find Earth. I'm sure he feels she's steeling his thunder but I don't see the constant reference to 'picking sides' that the Commander always tells Lee about. Seems to me there's only two sides. Cylon and Human. I'd think next time the Commander asks or grills Lee about picking sides that should be his answer.

LoneStar1836
July 31st, 2005, 02:16 PM
He was drunk as a skunk too when they had that little exchange that was instigated by Ellen. She’s had a history of cheating on Tigh so even suggesting the possibility that Adama might be making the moves on her was enough to get Tigh riled.

Ellen is a big factor in what happen in Fragged. She’s the little devil whispering in Tigh’s ear every time you turn around. And a plastered Tigh just make him even more malleable. Makes me want to slap Tigh for being so stupid and weak.

I agree that the Commander should have never gone after the President like he did. He didn’t like her exercising that kind of control over him (coercing Starbuck) thus he then acted impulsively (as to say Who does this woman think she is? I'll show her.) without really considering the repercussions. He should have handled that differently, but then he wouldn’t have this lovely situation to wake up to when he eventually comes around. :D

ETA:

How ironic that it turned out to be Baltar that killed Crash since it was Crash that saved him from the burning Raptor in KLG.

And another random thought. Interesting word play with Tigh’s name. His overwhelming characteristic is his drinking. Then you have the saying “tie one on” which means to go on a drinking spree. Well, I think Tigh really tied one on in this episode.

Yes, I’m very slow on the uptake. ;)

LordHart
August 3rd, 2005, 12:40 AM
I just wanted to point out to everyone that what Crashdown did was what he is supposed to do when someone will not follow an order. It is their duty to do what he says whilst he is in charge, no matter what the situation looks like. Callie not following his order caused him to draw his weapon to get her moving, so they could continue their already set plan.

Although going after the dish would have been the safest option when they saw the other two Cylon Centurions, to deviate from their plan, going into a situation they didn't know about rather than one they had planned for and could adjust to the new situation easily would have been the worst option. They didn't know if Baltar had screwed up his lookout post or not, so there could have been 5 Cylons down at the Missile Battery, and 2 up at the Dish. The only thing they could have done was do the original plan.

If Callie was enlisted and had a military rank, she could be courtmartialled for dis-obeying orders (though, they didn't even tell them how Crashdown died, so I doubt they would tell them what happened with him and Callie).

dec55
August 3rd, 2005, 10:49 PM
Basically Callie's insabordination got Crash murdered. And could have got everyone killed. Crash really didn't have a choice in what he did. Adama probably would have done the same thing.

plot mechanic
August 4th, 2005, 12:26 PM
Being old enough to remember the Vietnam War, when the term "fragging" entered public awareness, I made a point to watch this episode. The breakdown in discipline in Vietnam that led to numerous instances of fragging arose from several causes, obviously. The US was losing the war. The war itself had no justification. Conscription was unfair. As near as I can tell, soldiers targeted officers who wanted to engage in combat just to make themselves a good record for their careers.

I can't say the episode was much good. The reasons why follow, at unfortunate length. The short version is that the plotting is arbitrary, while there is no real point besides sensationalism.

Despite the title, the episode sheds no light on the Vietnam experience, or any other. Indeed, technically, there is no fragging, unless for some reason you actually believe Baltar should be under orders. The chief might have fragged the lieutenant but Baltar shot first. The lieutenant is written as wrong but it is also written as not his fault.

One, the first task upon discovering the missiles was to warn any searchers that there was a Cylon presence. Turning the transponder on and off would do the trick. Or, in a self sacrificing action, just turning it off, in effect saying, too dangerous.

Two, the coincidence of sonic booms just as the attack is about to launch is rather convenient. This means that the lieutenant can reasonably conclude that there is no time left to recheck the guards on the radar dish, motivating the final crisis. How can the chief can possibly know that there is in fact time? Why do the searchers zoom overhead at supersonic speed, anyhow? If it is to take a quick peek at an area where enemies may be present, doesn't that mean that there is a reasonable chance the Cylon trap wouldn't work regardless? If the chief is sensible, why doesn't he point this out? At any rate, the girl freezes up when ordered to carry out the battle plan. In many militaries, it would be the lieutenant's duty to compel her obedience to orders or execute her out of hand. What is crazy is the idea of shooting someone while in earshot of the Cylons! The thing is, why didn't the chief say this? The lieutenant was quite obviously reluctant to shoot her. Plus, the chief went out of his way to give a lecture on following orders regardless earlier.

Three, when Baltar shoots the lieutenant, naturally the Cylons attack. Now, the episode shows the group, without the advantage of surprise and with one fewer soldier not just holding off the Cylon attack but successfully attacking the radar dish. If this is believable, so is the lieutenant's idea about attacking the Cylons! Incidentally, earlier dialogue says that the missiles are just point and shoot, without a guidance system, so it's not quite certain why the radar is needed anyhow. By the way, "kg" is a unit of mass, not frequency. This error is embarrassing for middle school students! At any rate, if the radar dish is needed, why wouldn't the Cylons guard it? The episode seems to think that Baltar's shooting of the lieutenant is the betrayal predicted by Six, motivated by Baltar's cowardly desire to save his own skin from the failure of the lieutenant's deranged plan. Except, that shooting the gun does not save Baltar's skin but risk it, because it alerts the Cylons. It is past peculiar that Baltar, despite his blatant cowardice, never asks Six about how he personally might be saved from other Cylons: Such an oversight is just bad characterization.

Four, there is no way that Six could have predicted the betrayal, even if you think the betrayal could be the girl's cowardice or the lieutenant's plan, since Baltar's action was a response to these unpredictable events. Baltar's subsequent heroism in the amazing running battle with the Cylons seems to agree with Six's odd proclamations about humanity! Back shooting someone makes him a man? This strikes me as unlikely, and cynical to boot.

Five, the chief's agreement to falsify the circumstances of the lieutenant's death shouldn't matter. A human bullet wound in the back speaks louder than both.

Six, the black and white characterization is offputting. Baltar lies about his cowardly retreat from the radar dish, giving the lieutenant a false perspective on the tactics. Amazingly, Baltar continues to lie even when admitting the truth would lead the lieutenant to reconsider his attack plan! Thus, it's all Baltar's fault. The lieutenant puts down the chief. Thus, he deserves to die. (Incidentally, although pulling rank doesn't answer the chief's comment about the other two guys, what was the chief's point? To smart off I think, which for me makes the lieutenant's response not quite the villainy the episode would have.) The chief, who says follow orders one minute and assaults a superior officer a little late, is however a hero, motivated by gallantry, even towards the pig shot in the back. Yeah, sure.

In the rest of the episode....

Roslin's drug withdrawal is preposterously hokey. She was taking that stuff as a herbal remedy for cancer, no? Yet it also causes visions. And we now discover it is addictive. I would have thought the doctor would have made a bigger deal about it. I would, because such a drug would be utterly unlike any chemical ever used by humanity. Given that the show is supposed to be about lifelike people, it stands to reason their brain chemistry should be lifelike too. On the other hand, withdrawal from pain meds (and why wouldn't a terminal cancer patient be on heavy doses of narcotics?) wouldn't cause such behavior. Exhibiting a prisoner suffering from lack of medical attention would be quite a misstep. So, what exactly was all that stuff with the wife?

Nor does alcohol necessarily induce amnesia. Tigh's forgetting the Kobol group was hard to believe.

Why does everyone call Roslin a schoolteacher? The people on this show are supposed to be us, and no one with a brain calls the secretary of education a schoolteacher.

Tigh's declaration of martial law is a logical development of Adama's actions. Neither Tigh nor Adama can permit the Quorum to make a judgment on Roslin's actions, hence the necessity for martial law. The storyline is written as if this is just some harebrained idea of Tigh's. I think the purpose of that is to leave the Adama character's hero credentials untarnished, so that it can escape the consequences.

pm

Liebestraume
August 4th, 2005, 09:15 PM
Plot mechanic, thanks for sharing your well-developed thoughts. Being a bit of a "gusher" myself, your post made an especially interesting read.

I agree with much of what you said about the combat sequence on Kobol. Not that I am an expert on military strategy or a war-movie buff, but the alternatives you offered just seemed to make so much more sense. A lot of the conflict would have been avoided had they done what you suggested (or something similar). Perhaps Fragged did err on the side of contravince in this regard.

However, I have a slightly different perspective on several other points.

One of your issues with this episode seems to be its title being deviant from its original usage. It indeed is, for "fragging" should have involved a grenade. However, I simply took it as to suggest discord among the ranks – which I suppose happened both on and off the ship. Guess I'm not too fuzzed about it because I see language as dynamic. Think about the other term this episode easily brings to mind: Military Dictatorship – it actually meant something slightly different in the days when the phrase was first coined.

The other is Six's ostensible ability to predict future. But, was it really a prediction? Methinks not. Anyone with a clear perspective could see something really bad was about to go down given the situation they were in, what with the ranking officer in way over his head, and the fact obvious to all. Six planned that idea in Baltar’s mind and Baltar, being the self-serving coward that he is, of course determined he would not be the victim! In a way, it was a self-fulfilling prophecy which later Six could claim as foresight. Alternatively, the Six in Baltar’s head is not "real" but a manifestation of his psychosis. Still I maintain he was smart enough to figure all that out on his own.

I disagree about the black-and-white characterization. Crashdown had annoyed me to no end in the last a couple of episodes; but as he struggled through the responsibilities for which he had never prepared, he came through as an immensely sympathetic figure in the end. That says layered characterization to me. And this is true even fro Baltar, who turned from a dubious pacifist to an ostensible action-hero. Who'd thunk that?

Thanks for your thought-provoking post, I still have much to say (too much, per usual :p). However, it’s getting late and I still have much packing to do ...

ZeroPoint
August 4th, 2005, 10:49 PM
Although I share Plot Mechanic's viewpoint, I'd put most of the issues in the realm of making a good story, which means bending some logic and maybe some physics. I see it all the time, and it bugs me to no end. Especially with military organizations on shows doing the opposite of what I'd think miltary practice to be.

I didn't like that the brig guard let Ellen Tigh to see the prisoner President. Someone with more of a military background can tell me if I'm wrong, but I don't feel that should have happened. Ellen had no rank and was not related/assisting to the President and should have been restricted.

Although I like BSG, I get bothered with statements that are just taken at face value and run with, without study. "One of you will betray the others", and Baltar doesn't ask WHY Six can predict it.

As soon as the chief was introduced, it sounded like what old war movies did. The non-commissioned officer that has been to hell and back twice. The soldiers will follow him because of his experience, and disobey the new lieutenant (or whatever rank) that orders them around gruffly.

To cover PM's question (I think): Roslin is called a schoolteacher because she was Director of Education or some such when the Cylons attacked and wiped out all of the political command chain above her.

minh
August 5th, 2005, 01:22 AM
Hello, I'm new here, but been lurking for a long time. I was registered under the Prospero board under the same name. : ) Boy, you're awfully nit-picky. Some of your points are valid, although we have to suspend disbelief a little. It's not realistic to have a floating camera secretly taping the characters that are followed by an invisible orchestra. ;-) However, I think there's misunderstanding in some of your points.

First of all, these characters are not often rational, and it makes them very human. Under stress, you can throw rationality out the window. During tests, I sometimes miss simple questions and forget most of what I've learn. Five minutes after, I can do everything perfectly well.


Three, when Baltar shoots the lieutenant, naturally the Cylons attack. Now, the episode shows the group, without the advantage of surprise and with one fewer soldier not just holding off the Cylon attack but successfully attacking the radar dish. If this is believable, so is the lieutenant's idea about attacking the Cylons! Incidentally, earlier dialogue says that the missiles are just point and shoot, without a guidance system, so it's not quite certain why the radar is needed anyhow.

I think the writers are showing the radar is an easier target and in a more defendable position. They now know that their comrades are flying over for them, so they are driven by their desire to save them and fear of death. Rationality and irrationality are conflicting here, so don't expect the wisest choices. They also have wounded person with them. It's selfish for them to be suicidal. Let's apply game theory if you want rationality. If they charge the Cylons head on, they mostly likely die and have small chance of taking out the missiles. If they all flee to the radar dish, they still have small chance of taking out the dish, but also have the opportunity to flee and split up if things fail. Perhaps, one of them might survive. Both actions would have equal payoff to save the rescuers, but one is less costly to themselves.

I imagine aiming a dumb missile at a spacecraft moving faster than sound miles away is a hard task.


By the way, "kg" is a unit of mass, not frequency. This error is embarrassing for middle school students!

kg band - like we have different names for certain parts of the EM spectrum. I don't think it means frequency. (k band, c band)



At any rate, if the radar dish is needed, why wouldn't the Cylons guard it?

I thought the same thing. The Cylons don't know how many humans are left. The missiles might be a more important to protect since they can aim them manually with less accuracy though.


The episode seems to think that Baltar's shooting of the lieutenant is the betrayal predicted by Six, motivated by Baltar's cowardly desire to save his own skin from the failure of the lieutenant's deranged plan. Except, that shooting the gun does not save Baltar's skin but risk it, because it alerts the Cylons. It is past peculiar that Baltar, despite his blatant cowardice, never asks Six about how he personally might be saved from other Cylons: Such an oversight is just bad characterization.

Again, are you sure he's rational? He's afraid of her and lust for her at the same time. Six could be just a delusion in his mind, so he subconsciously knows not to ask her. I think he did push questions about his roles and other, but Six remained very vague, so knows not to ask her too.


Five, the chief's agreement to falsify the circumstances of the lieutenant's death shouldn't matter. A human bullet wound in the back speaks louder than both.

What reason would that they have to suspect foul play? Would they have medical examiner check every dead body? Baltar is a respected doctor/scientist after all. The rest of crew trust the survivors and would like to believe that Crashdown died honorably. Out of sight, out of mind. Additionally, the aftermath is not show yet. It may comeback to haunt in the near future.



Six, the black and white characterization is offputting. Baltar lies about his cowardly retreat from the radar dish, giving the lieutenant a false perspective on the tactics. Amazingly, Baltar continues to lie even when admitting the truth would lead the lieutenant to reconsider his attack plan! Thus, it's all Baltar's fault. The lieutenant puts down the chief. Thus, he deserves to die. (Incidentally, although pulling rank doesn't answer the chief's comment about the other two guys, what was the chief's point? To smart off I think, which for me makes the lieutenant's response not quite the villainy the episode would have.)

Crashdown died because he wasn't a very good leader. He probably would have gotten them all killed. Crashdown deserved to die because his death let them all live, not because he put down the chief. He should have listened to the chieft more because he's more experienced and level headed. Because his death was caused by Balter (in more ways than one), he's portrayed in a good light. He’s a tragic hero.



The chief, who says follow orders one minute and assaults a superior officer a little late, is however a hero, motivated by gallantry, even towards the pig shot in the back. Yeah, sure.

Why not? He's the most empathetic and sympathetic character of all them. He cares about his people while Crashdown sees people as a means to an objective. He cares about Crashdown too, giving him support and made Crashdown out to be a hero. The Chief would never pull a gun on his crew unless they or him comes to harm. Crashdown is too set in his military ways, and ignores the human side of things. He acts more like a machine which we can't relate. If he was really a leader, he should have led the charge and made the first move. Leaders tend to often to think of the subordinates as dispensable and prefer not to get in the fight themselves.


In the rest of the episode....


Roslin's drug withdrawal is preposterously hokey. She was taking that stuff as a herbal remedy for cancer, no? Yet it also causes visions. And we now discover it is addictive. I would have thought the doctor would have made a bigger deal about it. I would, because such a drug would be utterly unlike any chemical ever used by humanity. Given that the show is supposed to be about lifelike people, it stands to reason their brain chemistry should be lifelike too. On the other hand, withdrawal from pain meds (and why wouldn't a terminal cancer patient be on heavy doses of narcotics?) wouldn't cause such behavior. Exhibiting a prisoner suffering from lack of medical attention would be quite a misstep. So, what exactly was all that stuff with the wife?

Nor does alcohol necessarily induce amnesia. Tigh's forgetting the Kobol group was hard to believe.


I imagine that's your professional medical opinion? Drug interactions can vary wildly depending on its type and the person. I'll probably know more about this when I'll take biochemistry classes later this year.

Chamala extract may interact with other drugs Roslin may be taking. Its side-effects may not be thoroughly investigated. Are we sure that these visions are really drug induce? People can put themselves in trance state without drugs consciously and unconsciously. There’s also the possibly that these visions are real and are given to her by the gods, not from the drugs.

The doctor did advise her against it, but what can he do? She's the president and could get around him easily. He does smoke even though he knows better.

Tigh didn't know about Roslin's condition. He wants to show her as crazy to discredit her under the influence of his wife.

His wife is evil and manipulative.


Why does everyone call Roslin a schoolteacher? The people on this show are supposed to be us, and no one with a brain calls the secretary of education a schoolteacher.

They do when they mean it in a condescending way. She was the Secretary of Education and way down in the line of succession until the Cyclons kill all of the people above her. This dysphemism is use to by her opponents to say that she is unfit for the presidency.


Tigh's declaration of martial law is a logical development of Adama's actions. Neither Tigh nor Adama can permit the Quorum to make a judgment on Roslin's actions, hence the necessity for martial law. The storyline is written as if this is just some harebrained idea of Tigh's. I think the purpose of that is to leave the Adama character's hero credentials untarnished, so that it can escape the consequences.

Man got a temper, a b*tch for his wife and a drinking problem. He doesn't like people undermining his authority. Anything is possible.

*sorry for errors, I'm a bad proofreader

White Knight
August 5th, 2005, 03:24 AM
I feel really sorry for Tigh. I can imagine him waking up the next morning with a massive hangover, saying "What the hell did I do last night?"

Poor, poor guy.

minh
August 5th, 2005, 12:36 PM
A very, very small part of me is sympathetic, but another of me wants to douse him with water, pump his stomach, put him in detox and then kick his ass. I'm undecided whether to throw him out of the airlock. I feel more sorry for Roslin.

In America, every soldier swear allegiance to the Command in Chief "aka the president" who becomes technically the head of the military to prevent coups. It's interesting the the Colonials don't this in place. Then again, we wouldn't have this lovely situation that they war in now.

Blue Banrigh
August 5th, 2005, 12:42 PM
Is anybody else wondering if Crashdown really would have shot Cally?

LoneStar1836
August 5th, 2005, 02:52 PM
It's not realistic to have a floating camera secretly taping the characters that are followed by an invisible orchestra. ;-)Heh. And here I thought there was an invisible orchestra running around the fleet creating that wonderful music. Next thing you are going to tell me is that there is no Santa Clause. ;):D:P By the way, Welcome to the board. :)

First of all, these characters are not often rational, and it makes them very human. Under stress, you can throw rationality out the window. During tests, I sometimes miss simple questions and forget most of what I've learn. Five minutes after, I can do everything perfectly well.Great statement. I think that especially applies to Crash. The others seemed to keep their heads screwed on strait and not loose their cool while on Kobol until there at the end.
Crashdown is too set in his military ways, and ignores the human side of things. He acts more like a machine which we can't relate.Crash was just a very inexperienced officer when it came to ground combat and was in way over his head and the situation just completely overwhelmed him. I found him to be a very sympathetic character in these 3 episodes so I personally wouldn’t say that I couldn’t relate to and understand some of the actions he took even though I disagreed with some of the things he did and blame him for Tarn’s death. I don’t think Crash deserved to die though. Though I guess I understand your statement there about him becoming almost machine-like. He fell back on his military training and kind of went into a mode of thinking by the book and regurgitating what the book says (ex. the 5 graph plan) rather than relying on his own instincts and the advice of those under him.

If he was really a leader, he should have led the charge and made the first move. Leaders tend to often to think of the subordinates as dispensable and prefer not to get in the fight themselves.That’s why leaders get paid the big bucks so to speak. They make the decisions and the grunts carry them out. Though in Crash’s plan, he was very much part of the action. His plan called for Cally to move around to the left and flank the Centurians to draw their fire while Crash and Selix moved around to the right in order to take out the control consol for the missiles. Tyrol and Baltar were to stay in that high ground position and cover the other three. I can see why Cally balked because she was going to be the bait and probably had the highest chance of getting killed. Crash was willing to put himself in danger as well, but he never got the chance because he was shot in the back. Crash had a hard time thinking on his feet while on Kobol. In this case he should have changed up the plan and had Cally stay at the high ground and help with cover fire and sent out one of the other ones to draw fire. Heh. I’d have sent Baltar since he had the least firearms training and was pretty much just going to be running. You needed Tyrol on the high ground because he can cover the others better. Plus I just want to see Baltar have to run like the big coward he is. ;)

Five, the chief's agreement to falsify the circumstances of the lieutenant's death shouldn't matter. A human bullet wound in the back speaks louder than both.I seriously doubt they went back and retrieved Crashdown’s body. As far as I could tell, Lee only took out three Centurians so I’d imagine they just did a scoop and run in order to avoid contact with the remaining Centurians if there were any left. But then again it didn’t look like they were in that big of a hurry to get the survivors aboard. *shrug* Otherwise it would be pretty obvious he was shot in the back and thus possibly raise suspicions. I have no doubts that Baltar’s comment and Tyrol’s nodding in agreement will come back into play later.

Is anybody else wondering if Crashdown really would have shot Cally?I don't think he would have. Or at least I want to believe he wouldn't have.

Jonisa
August 5th, 2005, 03:12 PM
Regarding whether or not Crashdown would have shot Cally:


I don't think he would have. Or at least I want to believe he wouldn't have.

I tend to agree. Remember, in Valley of Darkness he beckoned to Tyrol and told him to "Look after her" when they headed back to get the medkit to try to save Socinus. I think he really cared about her. Unfortunately, he was in a situation where he was completely and utterly out of his depth. He didn't have the confidence or experience to lead, he was leading people who had little or no military experience and were scared spitless, and he had already lost two people. The guilt of their deaths, the fear of what the Cylons were going to do to his group and the landing party, the pressure of being in a position that he wasn't ready for all came to a head and he cracked.

Poor Crashdown. :( I really felt sorry for him. I like to believe he would have come to his senses and put his gun down and then realize that Tyrol was the one talking.

Then again, this is BSG we're talking about. This show defines unpredictability. Who knows what he might have done?

plot mechanic
August 5th, 2005, 03:20 PM
Liebestraume: Thanks for the input. Your point about how the episode's deviant usage of "fragged" from its Vietnam coinage is a major issue for me is quite correct.

You are stuck in a pointless losing war, where an officer insists on risking your life just to make himself look good. What do you do? Defend yourself with a grenade in his tent. Not only is that a drastic solution for an intense conflict, it is something that might have a certain contemporary relevance. Except for the big difference that there is no draft. But Cowardly's remark about wanting money for dental school is an updating, no?

For that reason, it appears to me that the episode title does claim to address an important dramatic issue. In this story, a well intentioned officer in over his head might have been fragged, but fortunately a civilian spared him making the choice. Thus, we're supposed to accept his little speech to said civilian about discipline at face value. The story might have said, the world has effectively come to an end, this idiot is going to get us all killed, screw stupid rules and off the boob. Alternatively, it might have said, discipline is not just a good idea, but a necessity, even though in some extreme circumstances the cost is high.

What we seem to get is: Killing makes even a Baltar a man. As I said, this seems both unlikely and cynical. For me, the episode was contrived, evasive and trivial all at once. If the title didn't pose the same issues for you, I suppose the episode might come across differently.

I agree that this episode actually suggests that Six is bluffing, which is why I said that the episode apparently believes that the one who did the betraying was Baltar. I don't think the suggested manipulation is plausible, but to each his own. Of course, that issue isn't a cut and dried as some other plot contrivances in the episode.

It's true that the lieutenant has the closest thing to a subtle characterization. I think that this is an accident, from the predetermined conclusion that the guy must deserve to die (or this is a genuine tragedy instead of fun, ) yet must be well intentioned, so that there is no genuine confrontation of uncomfortable issues involved in real fragging.

For the latter, a contrived plot ensures that it's all Baltar's fault that his good intentions go awry. Yet bizarre dialogue, like the exchange about the dead soldiers, makes the guy unlikeable, especially mean to the chief, hence deserving to die, achieving the former.

Yes, I know that doesn't actually follow, except in a crudely melodramatic, childishly personalized way. This sort of thing is why I'm not one to claim the show is great drama.

In another instance, the lieutenant tells the chief to stay cool. Since he is obviously the one who is agitated, this is quite unpleasant. At least, that's the way the scene is written and acted. But, consider the actual content of that exchange. The lieutenant is explaining why it is necessary to attack the Cylons. He is correct. The chief has no arguments, and is merely obstructive. It is the lieutenant who is "coolly" reasoning!

Perhaps the characterization here is too subtle for me, but I must confess it just seems arbitrary writing.

ZeroPoint: It seems you put less value on plot mechanics than I do. For me, big gaps in logic make the show less entertaining. For example, that would be intense scene when the chief, the lieutenant and Cowardly were at crisis point was completely flat for me because I was wondering why no one was saying "SHH, SHH, SHH, DON'T ALERT THE CYLONS!"

Minh: Interesting point about the kg being a band. I'll have to look that up. Thanks for the tip. Edit: There is a K band, subdivided into Ka and Kb. No kg. From TwizTv:
Baltar: The dradis dish that controls the missiles is o*n the 4.5 kg wavelength, judging by the diameter. Sorry, this still sounds dreadfully stupid, and took me out of the scene.

Blue Banrigh: Yes, I'm wondering. The guy obviously was desperate to save the search mission, but still didn't want to do his duty re Cowardly.

Again, thanks to all. Might watch the revolution episode tonight, might not. Enjoy!

pm

PS Whoops! Forgot to agree with Lonestar 1836 assessment of the lieutenant's intentions. Yet I must agree with Minh's contention that the lieutenant was portrayed as deserving to die! Seriously, I'm not trying to be contrary, I really do see the portrayal as contradictory.

dosed150
August 20th, 2005, 02:43 AM
im sure i remember it being mentioned that roslin actually was a school teacher either before becoming a minister or whilst being a minister and as for crashdown i think he really would have shot callie he just seemed to get crazier the longer they where on kobol i think its not just the deaths it could be something to do with what number 6? said about kobol being a dark place forgotten by god for someone who joined to pay for dental school thats twice another human has threatened to shoot callie in both cases the person with the gun was shot in the back by someone else doesnt tigh realise his decision is going to cause rioting in the fleet surely the cheif medical officer doc cottle( hes a bit rubbish he smokes while seeing patients and his advice is to pray) could get tigh taken out of command because tighs judgement is obviously impaired

Matt G
January 24th, 2006, 03:42 PM
And BSG goes up another gear!

1. I reckon Roslin was faking going crazy. She seemed to be very coherant when addressing the Quorum.

2. Tigh losing the plot...bloody hell.

3. What went down on Kobol was outright insanity, nothing more nothing less.

dojo
August 24th, 2006, 12:32 AM
yea I know this threads been dead for a while but I just wanted to say Crashdown wasnt as bad as people are making him out to me. I like the show a lot, I thought season 1 was good and season 2 just blew me away but a few things bother me.

The biggest weakness was the subordinates. They had horrible attitudes, Crashdown didnt need all the doubting and second guessing, he needed them to follow orders and do what they were told, and the things he was telling them to do were not out of line. They definitely lacked the "warrior ethos" todays military strives to cultivate. In today's army they probably would be punished for their actions.

First off, you just crash landed and made a lot of noise on the way in. You grab what you can and you go. You leave as soon as possible because the bad guys just saw and heard that big smoke trail you made on the way in and are moving to you. This is true even when not crashing. When you make a helicopter insertion as soon as the birds leave you grab your pack and run for the nearest covered and concealed area because company is coming.

The chief did a good job in telling the LT that they should make sure they had all their equipment. As the senior enlisted man he should've been acting as the platoon sgt and part of that job is to sweep the area to make sure nothing is left behind whenever the patrol leaves an area. But not at the cost of getting caught by the cylon welcoming committee.

The 5 graph plan surprised me. That's a tool the military actually uses a lot but it's called an operations order and it is used in the field. When an oporder is properly briefed it takes about 2 hours to get it all out. Oporders are very detailed and are performed for every mission. Often you get an oporder before you go out on mission and you get follow on missions while in the field in the form of fragmentary orders. If the Lt did something wrong it was that he wasnt detailed enough when he was briefing the plan. Now unless you have plenty of time and are in a secured area while in the field you usually wont do a full blown oporder but instead brief a frago but you still use the original oporder. You'll say something like "situation (paragraph 1) is the same, no changes" and also service and support (graph 4) and command and signal (graph 5) usually remain the same. I was impressed that Crashdown used a terrain model to brief his plan.

As far as the criticism that Crashdown was too by the book, in the military the book is derived from lessons learned in real world applications. If its in the book, it means it works. The problem is its a pain in the ass to go by the book all the time because it takes a lot of discipline. When you start to get tired you start taking shortcuts and that's where you get in trouble. In the military if you can do everything by the book you will greatly increase your survivability.

There's a saying in the army that goes "poor plans violently executed are better than brilliant plans poorly executed." If you want to maximize your chance of living through a fight, when you're committed and you're told to go you go and you go hard. Violence of action will save your life, the hesitation, the refusal to perform their part of a plan they raised no objections to earlier, by cally and others put everyone's lives in danger. The chief argued that the patrol should hit the dish a "klick" away. A klick is 1 kilometer and in that terrain you're not moving 1 kilometer safely (meaning tactically in a manner that would prevent you getting discovered and engaged) in much less than hour. Realistically, if your friends are in the sky above you at that moment you hit the cylons where they are or the rescue plane is done.

All that noise from cally and the others about how the Lt couldnt expect them to do the things he was asking them to do was horrible. There are plenty of stories about how in major battles where the entire chain of command was wiped out in the first few minutes of a battle, privates would take charge of companies of men and win the day. The military might not expect kittens to fight like lions but it does expect them to try. Now in their situation where they had just crashed they should have initiated their escape and recovery plan which usually means avoiding contact with the enemy but when the enemy is gearing up to shoot down your ride home you should probably do something about it. As the senior enlisted man it should've fallen to the chief to keep everyone else in line and squash the whining.

MB.Eddie
November 7th, 2006, 08:45 AM
Another pretty powerful episode. I like the way Crashdown reacted to the deaths of those under his command, and lost a little bit of perception. Thats realistic writing imo. Baltar was very good in this too. He did do the right thing imo. They were outgunned, and outskilled.

Tigh wasnt to good with dealing with the press, but thats to be expected i guess. Everyone has their weaknesses. His reliance on the drink showed a lot too. Declaring military law at the end was quite an interesting move to, and was pretty much the only real one available to him.

Angela V
January 11th, 2007, 12:05 AM
Well, I don't think I need to add anything here :).
Besides the fact I can't believe it's taken a year and a half before I could finally watch this epsiode on t.v.! At least my station went right from season 1 into season 2 so I only had a week after the cliffhanger!

Though I do miss the drums in the opening. :(

Catsitter
July 14th, 2007, 08:43 AM
Just watched this episode on the DVD last night plus one deleted scene - Roslin's nightmare. I had read plenty of spoilers beforehand and I was expecting more from this episode, somehow. I agree with whoever it was that said (about two years ago!) that there seems to be a part missing that would lead up to the declaration of martial law. I certainly think that the episode could have been improved in that way.
I didn't mind the absence of Helo and Boomer, but did miss Starbuck. If only she could have been back on the Galactica commenting on Tigh's leadership!

There seem to be many popular Tigh quotes in this episode, such as "Why aren't you in the brig?", "Your turn will come, laughing boy" (not sure if I got that one exactly right), but actually what I liked best was hearing how Tigh pronounces "boat load". I will have to listen to that part again a few times. Nearly as nice as "poetic cr*p" from the webisodes! Hope more stuff actually happens in the next episode...

Sp!der
November 8th, 2008, 01:48 PM
i loved this episode...
....kobol oh my god, what a scene....
i just love this show....
the president, she was so cool, the look on col tighs face like wtf..^^
i was like yay when adama woke up...
...and captain apollo ^^.... love the way like he stands besides his president.
the actors are unbelievibal, still sg1 is my favorite BUT...the actors are far more better than at stargate.

Ulkesh47
November 16th, 2010, 05:11 PM
There are two big character threads in this episode, one for Baltar and one for Tigh. The latter works reasonably well; the former doesn't.
Let's start with Tigh's. He obviously is not cut out for the job of Commander of a Battlestar; he simply doesn't gel with anything outside of military tactics and it doesn't help that he's hitting the bottle and has a manipulative wife. Speaking of which, I like the scene in Tigh's quarters in which Ellen manipulates him into letting the Quorum see Roslin (which of course blows up in her face when Venner gets the chamalla for Roslin).

The other thread was Baltar's. This is an episode in which the role of the Head/Angel Six really becomes annoying, spouting the moral "you've murdered, now you're a man" and generally becoming a story nuisance with her obligatory and rather nonsensical advice and proselytizing. It really begins to wear on the viewer.

Two bits of trivia: this is the first episode with no scenes on Cylon-occupied Caprica, and with the deaths of Socinus and Crashdown the show has killed off its first two supporting characters.

This episode was above average, with the main plot on Kobol working rather well in its showcase of the frantic nature of a unit on the fringe and desperate.

6/10

Pharaoh Atem
November 20th, 2010, 09:34 PM
saul declearng martial law was awesome great scene .... walking out of the room into the hallway ...then ruined when he stopped for a drink

Professor_S
June 4th, 2011, 07:46 PM
Not too much to say about this ep for me.

First (and foremost!!) - Mary. Frakking. McDonnell. Bloody brilliant performance in this ep!!

Bear McCreary - as usual, his score was top-notch. "Martial Law" is one of my favourite BSG tracks!!

James Callis - He consistently and convincingly portrays this complicated character and he definitely deserves a nod for this ep.

Otherwise, this is a pretty middle-of-the-road episode, IMO.

mrscopterdoc
June 19th, 2014, 12:39 PM
I didn't like seeing Laura like that :(

garhkal
June 19th, 2014, 10:51 PM
My respect for Tyrol grows with each passing week. He knew Crashdown was not qualified for command but showed the respect due to his rank nonetheless. He made the appropriate command decisions, once in the position, and was willing to sacrifice his own life to draw enemy fires away from the others. Though I don't quite understand why he covered up for Baltar at the end, somehow it was consistent with his characterization. Recall his steadfast refusal to reveal Boomer's secret -- perhaps it had been more than his love of her at play there.

While i did like that they showed a military man doing what he was supposed to have done (respect the rank, not the person), i do think he should have stepped up and taken command TILL crashdown was ready to do his job.


it was inevitable that Tigh would return to his drinking, and it sure as hell doesn’t help him make better decisions! It’s not very helpful that the entire crew seems to know that he’s losing stability, thanks to his past history, and that they don’t feel like they can do anything about it. After all, what would they do? They’re already reeling from the loss of Adama’s strong and consistent leadership. There’s really no one else that they could rally support behind, is there?

Someone that much of an alcoholic i am surprised was even allowed to be in the fleet. LET alone so high of an officer.


I don't think Ellen is a Cylon. But she's always a dark influence. Definitely hungry for power. If you'll recall she was even after Tom Zerek in his rise to power.

If it wasn't for the fact that we find out she AND Saul are both members of the final five cylons i would have LOVED to have seen someone put her A)) in her place. She definitely needed a smacking.


I agree. But, by so doing, Tyrol just truck a deal with the devil (so to speak). That uncomfortable secret between all of them is going to have ramifications down the road.


I was honestly surprised they never revisited that later..