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Jeff O'Connor
July 22nd, 2005, 07:31 PM
What an episode. Expect a big 'review' from me akin to last week's 'Scattered' tomorrow, but I'm hitting the sack for now. I figured I'd do the honors and make a topic, though, to get some conversation started. Until I come back, I've just got one thing to say.

Holy. Flying. Cylons.

Vala
July 22nd, 2005, 07:45 PM
APOLLO GOT SUBSTENCE THIS WEEK wow that's such a new one lol... anyway that was cool... also Loved the Starbuck/Helo stuff on the Caprica (why do i half want those two to hook up?)

Lt. Elliot
July 22nd, 2005, 08:21 PM
I really liked Valley of Darkness aside from the fact this seasons is dark. A lot of death and suspense. It's different, but a good different.
Helo/Starbuck on Caprica. Fun actually. I liked seeing more into Kara's character, her life before the attacks, etc. Pleasant part of the episode.
The Centurions were cool! Keep in mind I have not seen much of them due to not seeing the Mini-Series, but they are cool! And headshots, AWESOME!
Roslin's presence is still felt and I love how calm she is in danger. And the bullets at the end. WOW!
Billy/Dee. Scary when the wound, stand-offish at the beginning, love at the end. Nice end to a dark episode.
Tigh and Apollo. They're thing with the uniforms. Tigh isn't fit to wear it. Take it off now! *******.
Baltar's dream scared me a little. More of a nightmare, right? Number Six to calm him down.
The morpha (euthenasia) was scary. Very dark and very heavy mood. The crying and all, it was sad.
So, 9/10. I feel like there could have been more, but there wasn't. However, Fragged looks to be awesome! With Zarek and Tigh, who knows what will happen!

Redwall
July 23rd, 2005, 06:33 AM
APOLLO GOT SUBSTENCE THIS WEEK

What exactly do you mean by this?

Did anyone else notice that one of the Centurions seemed to bleed when shot? It could have been blood from a previous victim, I suppose... but if the Centurions are cyborgs like the Raiders and Base Stars it would explain a lot.

Baltar's (Six-enduced, likely) dream was indeed freaky, and then the skulls...

A little too much running through corridors in this episode; almost everything on Galactica screamed "filler!" (which, from the podcasts, it apparently was; they couldn't fit the extra Caprica/Kobol stuff into "Scattered" and so they made another episode for it).

I really liked seeing Starbuck's apartment. She is quite the tortured soul... and her having a Humvee is very fitting.

LoneStar1836
July 23rd, 2005, 06:35 AM
Wow. Some of that was hard to watch (in that it was dark, not that I hated it), but a great episode nonetheless.

Interesting insights into Kara’s past life and about who she is - and all from just seeing her apartment, not to mention what she said. Someone needs to dig up a screencap of what she had painted on her wall - the writing. I wonder if Zak’s death was somewhat of the inspiration of her paintings cause they didn’t look like they were painted by a happy person, if she was ever a truly happy person sometime in her life. This storyline was my favorite of the night. I like the interaction between her and Helo.

:( I knew Socinous was going to die, but I didn’t think his death would be the result of a mercy killing. Now that whole scene was difficult to watch. Good stuff though.

Baltar and that baby. He’s really getting into that whole idea that he might be an actual father whether literally or figuratively. Let’s keep him away from Adama till the man can get back on his feet because after that dream, I think Baltar would actually try to kill him. He seemed very disturbed by that dream, and nothing really seems to bother Baltar unless it involves danger too himself. Then he worries. Hmm….wonder if that dream was manipulated by Six , a product of Baltar’s own subconscious knowing how Adama feels about Cylons if he ever found out, or some kind of prophetic dream like Roslin had with Leoben.

Good action on the Galactica with the Cylons, Lee, and the whole gang. Intense. Then him telling off Tigh like that. Hey, I guess why hold back now. You've already put a gun to the man's head so he can't dislike you anymore than he already does. Lee sort of confirmed that he never really thought he was cut out to be in the service in the first place. He did it more out of trying to live up to his father's expections than because he actually wanted to, imo.

Okay my new suspects for Cylons. Dee and Jammer. How convenient that they survived or did they just luck out. I know the writers are probably doing some of these things on purpose to make us start questioning characters. Then to probably have a character who never seemed like a Cylon, turn out to be one. :D

Great use of music throughout in this one as well.

Another fantastic episode in the books. Lots of good character development, which is what I love about this show. I love the overall storyline and all the action etc., but the characters and how in depth that they are written is what make the show for me.

larocque6689
July 23rd, 2005, 06:43 AM
Here are excerpts from the podcast.

--

That number of the survivors will change week to week, by the way. That's something you might want to look at. We are tracking the number of the survivors, actually.

--

We wanted to add a little bit more texture, a little bit more pathos, a little bit more of humanity into the show. And we loved this storyline so much we knew it could sustain a little bit more discussion of Helo and what he's going through, and Kara's reaction to it, and a little bit more about their friendship. And it's moody and it's interesting. It gives you just a little more bit insight into the struggle that he's going through, and that she's just starting to deal with herself... This season is the first time that Katee and Talmoh have worked together since the minsieries. It's the first time Talmoh has worked with anybody except Grace for a very long time. It's just kind of fun to see that relationship. It's interesting to know now that Kara and Helo go back aways, that they had a relationship, that they were friends, that there's a pre-existing relationship between these two pilots.

--

This sequence where Tigh tells them what the Cylons are after, when he says they are actually going here to aft damamge control and they are going to auxilliary fire control he says "I know where they're going." In the aired version of the show, you assume that Tigh's encountered these guys before. He fought in the first Cylon wars. This was a memory. It was more literal in the first script than in the cut... We did shoot a whole scene with Tigh and Adama that was set in the same period as the flashbacks that you saw in "Scattered," and it was a drinking scene between the two men... Tigh and Adama, on the night before Adama goes back to the fleet, are getting really drunk. And they're sitting there and trading stories.

And it turns out that Tigh was on a ship called the Brinnock, and the Brinnock was boarded by Cylons. They tried to decompress the ship and kill them all, and turn the guns of the Brinnock against the other ships in their escort fleet. It was his first taste of real ugly, hand to hand combat and saw dead people for the first time. And then it turned out that Adama had gone through something similar on the Galactica... In his backstory, I always felt that Galactica was the first ship that Adama was assigned to during the first Cylon war as a pilot. And that he went through a similar experience and Galactica lost a lot of men. A lot of good men died when the Cylons got on board. But it is essentially that flashback was what informed the audience how Tigh knows what theire plan is, and that the Cylon plan was, they didn't come right at CIC, they didn't go toward the magazines, they didn't even go towards the engines. They essentially went to auxiliary fire control and aft damage control. They went to the secondary places on the ship, went into aft damage control, destroyed the safeties, got into the computer systems and mechanical systems, and were able to take over the ship from that point, and use auxiliary fire control to attack the ships around them.

--

This sequence I think is really great. I think there's some people that would be quite disturbed by this sequence. I think it's really interesting and really intriguing. It pushes the mythos forward in an interesting way. But this was a controversial sequence, this whole beat of Adama and the baby, and Adama drowning the baby. I think there was a lot of hesitation and nervousness, and "Oh my God, can we show this?" and there was a lot of arguing. And David and I just kept fighting for it and kept saying "this is important." This is about a threat to the child that Baltar is investing in. Your basically setting up a marker that Adama in some way, shape or form, is the threat that Baltar must face. Adama is going to be a major obstacle, between Baltar and fulfilling his destiny, vis a vis the child. So, this is a simple, visual, clear and brutal way of dramatizing that event. And I just felt it was great, and I felt that it was part of the show. That the show has a certain no holds barred, really brutal quality to it... I don't really have a hankering for infanticide, certainly, but we did kill a baby in the miniseries, and here Adama is killing a baby.

--

This idea, I thought was really intriguing, that part of the myth of the Colonies' backstory is this notion that Kobol was a paradise, in the same way that Eden in the Judeo-Christian tradition was paradise, and that man left paradise and has been on a fall ever since. I think it was intriguging to go back to Kobol to find paradise, and to find out, far from Eden, some really nasty horrific things happened there. There was human sacrifice, there was barbarism, there was brutality. Man fled paradise, he was driven out by the wrath of God, for the things that he did, which in some ways, is a basic retelling of Genesis... These guys did some really nasty untoward things, and then they had to leave.

--

This is my favorite scene of the season and it's one of my favorite scenes of the entire series. I love this whole bit of texture that we go to Kara Thrace's apartment. I love the way the two actors react to it. Katee and Talmoh actually went in there on their own and did a lot of this painting on the walls and canvases. And Katee was very involved in what Starbuck's apartment would be like. I like the fact that she painteed, in that she had this weird, bohemian existence that is antithetical in a lot of ways to what it is to be a fighter pilot in the military and that there is this other aspect of her. We've heard some not so great things about her mother. We've implied them in season one episodes. But then her father is a musician and plays piano, and that she still has his cassette tapes or discs and listens to them. In fact, this leather jacket that she's going to pick up in a minute and put on is supposed to be her father's jacket. It's mentioned in the script, it's not really mentioned in the dialog, it's just a bit of background texture on the character and tells you something about her. There's a mood about this scene. This scene doesn't move the plot forward, except in a tiny way later when they get the car keys. The character aspect of it, what it says about Kara Thrace, I think is fascinating. And there's something great about the fact that at the end of this scene, all they do is sit there and rest and take a break. Because these guys have been on the run pretty much since the pilot.

--

There was also a significant story cut here. There was a whole bit of business here when Lee calls in to Tigh and tells him where he is and what he's doing, and Tigh says, "Where are you? What are you doing?" And he says, "We're down here, I've got these marines with me," and Tigh mainly goes, "Let me talk to private Kelso." And Lee says, "What? What are you talking about? I'm in command of this mission." And he says, "No you're not, I'm relieving you as of this moment. Give me private Kelso." And Lee says, "What's going on? I'm the officer, you give the orders through me." And Tigh went off on him under the stress. "You have disappointed everybody in you're life. You can't be counted on. Now give me fracking private!" And Lee, shocked by that, told him, "This is my comand, you have orders, you give them through me," and Tigh had to acquiesce to that and finally give it to him. At the end sequence, when they're both next to Adama's bed, there was an exchange between Tigh and Lee, part of which is still there. Lee said, "Did my father really say those things about me?" because Lee assumes that Tigh is parroting something that he heard Adama say. But no, it's actually that the Old Man thought that "his sun rises and sets on you. And I don't know for the life of me why. You put a gun to my head. You chose that woman over him." I think you are a loser, basically... It was one of those things that ultimately I was wrong about. When I saw it in the cut, I didn't like it either, felt it wasn't appropriate, and decided to cut it.

--

A nice little callback about "I'll roll the hard six" that Lee comes up with from his dad even though he doesn't know what the hell that actually means, which I think is charming and wonderful.

--

At some point we had to decide, do they have cars on Caprica? Well, it is a sister world to ours, but what's a car gonna look like? Is it just gonna be just a Ford or something? There was lots of discussion, but finally we said, "You know what? Whatever." She's got a car, let's give her something tough, and a car I like, so we went for a Humvee kind of vehicle, and just went for it. Because it just became too tedious and annoying to try and come up with the futuristic car. "It's a Caprica car, it's not a recognizable car." Who cares. This feels like something Kara would drive.

--

I'm verry happy on balance of all the reshoots that we did, that we added them into the show, that it does provide a little more humanity into it, and just get to spend more time with these characters I think is the biggest plus that came out of the effort to go back and really keep working on this particular episode. Overall, "Valley of Darkness" now feels like a full meal, it feels like a richer meal, it feels like we've really expanded the language of what was really happening in this particular episode... I'm very proud of "Valley of Darkness". A tremendous amount of time and effort went into this piece by a lot of people to make it all that it could be. In the end, I think it's a really good one. I think it's a worthy episode, and it doesn't suffer from the sophomore slump. I think it really does carry forward, and it feels like season two is really going places and doing things that season one could only hint at. And the characters all seem deeper and richer and the show just feels like it's really hitting on all cylinders.

LoneStar1836
July 23rd, 2005, 06:49 AM
Did anyone else notice that one of the Centurions seemed to bleed when shot? It could have been blood from a previous victim, I suppose... but if the Centurions are cyborgs like the Raiders and Base Stars it would explain a lot.I first thought that when I saw that, but I think it was just blood from one of their victims. I don’t think Billy actually hit it when he fired. Hehe. I just knew that Lee should have never given him a weapon. Anyway I don’t think he hit it because both Cylons turned around and walked back to where the shot was fired from.

Yeah, the stuff on Galactica was more filler than really good substance, but I didn’t mind because you got a glimpse of just how the Cylons would operate if they got on board - depressurizing the entire ship and then firing on the rest of the fleet. It obviously is a tactic they always use since Tigh knew where they were headed so……….. Is it honestly a good idea to have some button that says “Press to depressurize entire ship here.” :D Why would such an option exist? I’m sure it’s a little more complicated than one button, but …………:P

Jonisa
July 23rd, 2005, 08:30 AM
I agree with everyone else that this was a fantastic episode. For me, SG1 and SGA are just warmups until I get to my show. Kudos to the producers and writers and actors for creating such wonderful balance between characterization, plot, suspense...you name it, this show delivers. I love the complexity of it.

Looking at all the different threads of the episode:

Baltar/Six: She is one clever Cylon, as she slowly leads him where she wants him to go. This episode he seemed to be really buying in to this whole baby thing. If this is the beginning of him turning to help the Cylons over the humans I find it very believable that his character is not this one-dimensional evil guy as he was in the original, but instead a very weak-minded, vainglorious and selfish person who was manipulated into working against the humans. I loved the way they foreshadowed the Baltar/Adama antagonism. Very creepy with the baby.

Kara/Helo. Awww. Just awww. What a welcome break in the midst of all the intensity on the Galactica and Kobol. And how poignant--reminders of a home they'll never have again. Kara might say she's not fighting for her home, but she didn't convince me of that by her actions. Nice friendship between the two, as well. I hope they keep it that way. (Firmly on the Lee/Kara ship, because I trust these writers with that sort of thing.)

Tyrol/Cally/Socinus: Poor, poor Tyrol. It really came across how deeply he cares and how much he feels responsible for his men. I found it interesting that Crashdown wants command, but then when it comes to the difficult things, such as getting the medkit, or the agonizing things, such as the mercy killing of Socinus, he's happy to let Tyrol do it. Some leader. They just have to be going for a Band of Brothers/Saving Private Ryan dynamic with these scenes as well as last week's. They did well, I thought. And how much did I love Cally's "motherfrakkin'" freakout, which ended in both Tyrol and Cally's nervous giggling?

Lee Adama: I don't know if I can love this character more than I do now. Lee gets to play the hero, but you can see he's scared. "Headshot, reload, headshot, reload, headshot, reload." :p He seemed so terribly sad to me as well. I found it telling that when Jammer said that the Cylon didn't look so big anymore after Lee shot him Lee looked over at the dead man and quietly said they still looked plenty big, or words to that affect. I was really affected by those dead bodies, as I kept thinking that they don't have that many people to spare!

Jamie Bamber's interview about Lee being completely alone was right on too, wasn't it? He has no one to rely on, no one to confide in. He did what he had to, without question, but without any expectations either. This will him make a much stronger person, I think, but unfortunately also one who seems pretty resigned to an unhappy existence. He seems almost bitter.

Lee/Tigh: Loved their exchange at the end. They are so different and I don't know that they'll ever understand each other. Tigh is all about loyalty to a person--William Adama. Lee is all about loyalty to ideals, to what he believes is "right". Yet even though he went against his father's orders you could see the deep love and respect he has for him as he stood there by his father's bedside. All these characters bump up against each other in such fascinating ways.

Well there. That's probably enough. What's scary is that I can think of a bunch more things that I could still remark on, but I'll stop here. This show is so rich, I don't think my musings do it justice.

I can't wait until next week! :D

keshou
July 23rd, 2005, 08:49 AM
This really is a great show, isn't it? I enjoyed SG-1 and SGA - Scifi Fridays have been fun so far. But BSG? I LOVE this show. There's hardly anything to nitpick. ;)

Thanks for typing up some of the podcast larocque6689 - I haven't had a chance to listen to all of it yet.

I really liked the intensity of this episode. First real hand-to-hand fighting we've seen with a band of Cylons. I knew they were lethal but it's interesting to see their tactics at work and see what their vulnerabilities are.

I really liked Lee in this. You know in every war there are men/women who end up as reluctant heros and I feel like that's what Lee is. Not a natural warrior he can nevertheless rise to the occasion. And he has principles.

Tigh. He's tough to like. If Lee is the reluctant warrior/leader, Tigh is the perfect example of the Peter Principle at work. He's definitely been promoted up to his level of incompetence. Such an interesting character. Great scene between Lee and Tigh when they were standing by the old man's bed.

Tyrol. Poor, poor Tyrol. Such a wrenching scene when he comforts his dying friend. Wow - just broke my heart. Everything going on with the Kobol group is interesting and I keep feeling like it's going to lead to something big - just not sure what.

Baltar is clearly going nuts. If I were Adama I'd watch my back. It IS interesting how invested Baltar is getting in this whole baby thing. I have no idea where they're going to go with that.

Kara/Helo. I just love those two together and I loved those scenes in her apartment. Great piano music - which I've read elsewhere was by Philip Glass. Ron Moore is smart enough to know that quiet scenes can do more to establish characters and relationships than non-stop action. I also thought seeing Kara's apartment - with all the paintings - helped remind us how much these people have lost. Their homes, their belongings, their past, many of their friends. Wonder how much gas Kara has in her truck? ;)

Well Dualla/Dee was on my list as a possible Cylon and she's still on my list. Yes - very convenient that she survived. I don't think Billy is on my Cylon list though. He's just too much of a woobie. If he's a Cylon he's like the worst Cylon ever. :p

Can't wait for next week. This show is like crack. :D

Vala
July 23rd, 2005, 09:22 AM
What exactly do you mean by this?


if you didn't "get" that its extremely sad... Apollo is the boring character on the show, the only thing I like about his character are his conversations with Roslin. Him getting that monologue at the end of the episode was probably one of the best scenes of the show’s run and they gave it to him (kinda had to though) therefore substance.

LoneStar1836
July 23rd, 2005, 09:38 AM
Yes, it is like crack. :D And I thought GateWorld was prime grade crack. BSG is uncut cocaine.


I don't think Billy is on my Cylon list though. He's just too much of a woobie. If he's a Cylon he's like the worst Cylon ever. :PAnd just what is a “woobie”?
He was never on my list. He is a terrible Cylon if he is, though, and that’s why he will turn out to be a one.:D

I thought the Hummer was cool. How fitting for Starbuck. No station wagons or vans or other wimpy vehicles for her. ;) I’m not too sure they will have to worry about the how much gas it had. :D I don’t see the vehicle lasting too long with all those Cylons prowling around.


And how poignant--reminders of a home they'll never have again. Kara might say she's not fighting for her home, but she didn't convince me of that by her actions. Nice friendship between the two, as well. I hope they keep it that way. (Firmly on the Lee/Kara ship, because I trust these writers with that sort of thing.)Yeah, I don’t totally think she believes that either. I just think with all the sh*t that has happened to her in the past couple of episodes going back to KLG, she’s really been thrown off balance and isn’t quite sure why she is fighting or what she is fighting for other than her own existence. Adama has betrayed her trust, one of her best friends is a Cylon…………

Please keep it as friendship. For the briefest of seconds, I thought that they might try to play up a little more than the friendship angle in this ep. I’m leaning towards the Kara/Lee ship because I do think these writers can tastefully do it to where it enhances the story rather than drag it down, but I’m not standing on the rooftops and screaming Kara and Lee forever just yet.;) I’m kind of gun shy from SG-1………….

keshou
July 23rd, 2005, 09:48 AM
Please keep it as friendship. For the briefest of seconds, I thought that they might try to play up a little more than the friendship angle in this ep. I’m leaning towards the Kara/Lee ship because I do think these writers can tastefully do it to where it enhances the story rather than drag it down, but I’m not standing on the rooftops and screaming Kara and Lee forever just yet.;) I’m kind of gun shy from SG-1………….
I like Kara and Helo together a lot - she needs a friend. But that's all I'm seeing so far.

And shhhh....don't tell anyone - I kind of got interested in the whole Kara/Lee thing when I was watching the reruns. I sure don't trust the Stargate writers with a shippy pen in their hands but maybe Ron Moore will be able to pull it off. I'm watching with interest. ;) :)

Vala
July 23rd, 2005, 09:54 AM
I want Starbuck and Helo to get it on!

Jonisa
July 23rd, 2005, 10:02 AM
I’m leaning towards the Kara/Lee ship because I do think these writers can tastefully do it to where it enhances the story rather than drag it down, but I’m not standing on the rooftops and screaming Kara and Lee forever just yet.;) I’m kind of gun shy from SG-1………….

Oh, I hear you about being gunshy from SG-1, believe me. I've already blathered on about my feelings on that issue in other places. I'm not standing around waving a Lee/Kara banner either, but I'll admit it, I'm intrigued by the possibility. :)

The reason I'm for Lee/Kara is because these two characters have soooo many issues, both individually and as a couple, that any sort of ship between them is going to be complex and messy and a long time coming, if ever. If anyone has already shown that he can write complicated characters slowly coming together in an interesting and believable way, it's Ron Moore and his group of writers.

I'm curious to see how they handle it, if they decide to go there. And frankly, they've hinted that they might be heading in that direction eventually, especially at the end of Season 1. Of course, with these writers, it won't be anything that we expect, that's for sure. :p

Jeff O'Connor
July 23rd, 2005, 06:11 PM
All right, well, bleh. I promised my pseudo-review of the week so here it comes, another big, tough post on par with you other CAGs! I'll keep the same formula as before, since it seemed to work fairly well -- listing what I liked, going into decent detail about these things then going into whatever little tidbits I can possibly find that weren't absolutely splendid in my opinion, discuss briefly and then finish up with my little scorecard ceremony.

Hehe, man, I almost sound like I know what I'm doing. Here goes...


What did I like about 'Valley of Darkness', one might find themselves asking...


Starbuck and Helo! Starbuck and Helo!

Ahmigoodness, I absolutely love them together! One episode, one frakking episode with them together and I... can't contemplate their being separated anymore. I'm serious, I... the chemistry -- am I the only one feeling a powerful chemistry between them? No, I'm not specifically speaking of a relationship in the sense of sex, romance -- though I certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility -- I'm talking about just... a deep, spiritual bond they share and it's rich and it's poignant and I was blown away. I really like Starbuck and Apollo... I do, really, I do... but I'm at a loss for words. I thought it'd be awkward, I thought I'd be missing Boomer and Helo, Lee and Kara... I'm not, I'm really not. Not quite so much, I should say. Going into detail, now, rather than fan raving...

The scene between them, scenes, rather, in her apartment was pure brilliance. The artwork, the cassette tape, her monologue, his simplistic reactions of content and relaxation, the mess, her feelings, their rest, their moment's peace... I was in awe, somehow. In fact, taking a second here to express my feelings regarding the artwork in particular... someone seriously does need to demonstrate a stillframe of whatever was written back there, I read only a little in my small chance to do so and am entirely intrigued. Kara's speaking of how she didn't fight to gain what was lost, but because she knew nothing else, was... quite simply put, captivating and thought-provoking entertainment at its paramount.


Lee Adama, he's our man! If he can't shoot it, no one can!

Boy, I couldn't think of a better strapping lad to have on my side in a wartime situation than Commander Adama's very own son, ready at a heartbeat's notice to temporarily shelter himself from entirely visible fear and instead focus upon the here and now, and solve a problem, work things through and reassure the rest've a petrified squadron that everything will be all right. His tenacity, his willpower are shining examples of the humanity within us all and his ultimate loyalty not to his father who he loves, not to any single person at all, really, but instead to the principles of freedom and integrity are... impressive isn't enough. Downright envigorating, if not viscerally inspiring to the utmost degree.

Apollo, his dedication to the situation despite numerous personal catastrophes unfolding all around him, his relentless, vigorous approach are deep-rooted principles which compel and propel his every action, especially in recent times. Despite fallouts and miscalculations, he's done the right thing and this time around, these gut feelings of his paid off tenfold. No, he didn't technically do anything spectacular in the sense that his knowledge saved the ship -- that was Tigh's expertise -- but his words of wisdom imparted upon a 'fledgling' officer which strengthened, his tactics displayed upon the others which proved needed, his forced calmness despite obvious distress which kept the group stable... beautifully executed. I've been in the little camp off to the side who's liked this guy from first moment we saw him and I've stayed there and now, I'm damned glad I have. Keep it up, Apollo, and the worst CAG in the history of CAGs? I think not, Kara.

Tigh me up, Tigh me down... I'll still be sober enough to point fingers!

Although this time around, that infamous finger-pointing from the good old boy with a desperate housewife was moreso beneficial to our ragtag three-dimensionals than time-consuming and unneeded. Way to go, Saul, your mind's proven to me for the second time in the second season, alcoholism hasn't granted you a loss for all things important... something I'd been beginning to consider having happened by the tail end of the first year, no doubt. His intuition, his remembering Centurion battle tactics was the leading cause for Galactica's survival during this dark time. Or, should I say, darker than usual?

Knowing where they were going, Tigh managed command quite well from his place and shuffled things well, too -- of course, there was, perhaps, my favorite scene in the episode, right at the very end, which blew me away -- his conversation with Lee beside the stabilized Adama. I decided to incorporate this into Tigh over Lee in terms of discussion because I believe he instigated the matter, which led to brilliant words by the latter. Never before, save perhaps Starbuck's comments in this same episode, have I been so moved by a few lines on a television episode... with, possibly, the exception of a couple of 'Farscape' moments. Lee Adama's statement resided within my head for the duration of the night, thereafter -- gripping, intelligent, seizing of the opportunity... and it actually shut them both up and wrapped things terrifically.


Who dares, wins.

I believe that's the British Navy's motto, isn't it? I know it's the British... something-or-other's, I can't quite recall which. In truth, I heard it in 'Metal Gear Solid 2', a very good game about politics, willpower and all sorts of things. Anyway, enough of that -- time for the reason I wrote it, eh? I'm talking about the controversial scene featuring Adama taking the baby into the lake and also, the miniseries' eye-widening moment regarding Six's having killed a baby, herself. Of course, I'll be focusing on last night's episode's version, for obvious reasons.

In fact, addressing the scene as a whole, it was incredible. Six's revelations, be they falsified or factual, regarding the true nature of Humans who thrived and then perished on Kobol were impressive and watching Gaius Baltar genuinely care about something living, breathing and not named Gaius Baltar was riveting. Now, one might argue through the courtesy of modern-day over-analysis that caring, concern for his flesh and blood was a selfish behavior no different than such a feeling for his limbs, but most would nonetheless agree that another person is another person, whether it was his mental offspring or no, it wasn't him and that's enough.

Watching our beloved psychopath chasing after a single-minded imprint of William Adama, fail to save his child and scream in agony, only to be comforted by Six and her strong words of Cylonic nature was definitely interesting and far from the Sixex (pronounced 'Six-sex') I'd been getting a tad tired of -- it served its purpose, probably still does, but doesn't need to be displayed all the frakking time. This whole development is going to work wonderfully in future episodes and I can't wait. Baltar... you've gained some respect points today. Sort've. Oh... and the title of this section makes reference to Moore's decision to allow this powerful things to be shown. Awesome.


We're going home...

Chief Tyrol, you keep getting better and better. Your outburst, your anger, your sorrow, your compassion, your resolve, they're all so detailed, considering you don't get quite so much airtime as a few other characters, now do you? I agree with an above poster that Crashdown's quick allowance for Tyrol to give the lethal injection was a little pathetic, he isn't cut out to be a leader, that Crashdown, at least, not at this stage of his life. The good chief's words to his friend in this time of crisis were well-spoken, no doubt, and I honestly felt a stray tear strike my cheek. "We're going home..." Yeah... it's good to have him die with that thought, methinks. Beautiful... just listening to the birds.


Try using her rank.

Billy and Dee sure are cute together, though I can't help but agree she might be a Cylon, yes. Nevertheless, in the spirit of Boomer-esque fandom, I still can't help but like her, and I must admit their relationship is intriguing -- the young, innocent routine in a galaxy of remorse. In particular, though, I quoted from the episode to demonstrate my emotional reaction to Billy's initial failure to get the poor girl -- perhaps, I suppose, poor Cylon -- out've her trance state and Roslin's recommendation that he snap her out've it with the military routine.

It made me remember, it reminded me, more like, of how brain-washing militaries can be, whether intentionally or other -- usually, intentionally, no doubt. She didn't hear him, she rambled... then he spoke her rank and she twitched, tilted, and jolted with happiness upon recognizing his face. Their moments from thereon out were well-done, I'd say, and their closing scene was a brief bit of joy which I smiled at for sure.


Who ever said prison guards had to do nothing but toss meals?

Terrible of me to not know his name by now, but the guard who's been on for two episodes, now, has had quite a bit of action and I've enjoyed his presence on the show, from the initial silent standing, to praying alongside Roslin, to watching over the President with genuine concern for her well-being in the midst of a Cylon boarding situation.


Holy. Flying. Cylons.

They leap. They lunge. 'Nuff said. Hot damn.


I'd say there's even more this time, but if I want any hope whatsoever of anyone reading this, I'd best stop now and delve into what little I can nitpick about...

O Boomer, Where Art Thou?

All right, so, there's reasonable explanation behind her not being with the others on Caprica right now, but still, c'mon. Also, I'd like to have seen maybe five seconds with Centurions passing her, eyes widening or somesuch, on Galactica? Oh well, plenty of time to see more of her... them, yet.


Shh, we need to whisper whilst driving around in my truck or the Cylons will hear us for sure.

Okay, so one might argue that Helo figures he's been followed the whole time right now, anyway, what's a roaring engine gonna do as they high-tail it around? Then again, it's just something that didn't bode well, but sure, it's sort've added protection, faster transportation and his legs must ache like madness. Even then, it's just awkward... just a trite little nonsense complaint of mine regarding the matter, is all, I suppose.


Shut the frak up, already, Jeff O'Connor! Give me your bloody score and be done with it!

All right, all right, shutting up. My final score for tonight's episode is a stalwart 9.8/10, as opposed to last week's 9.6 -- I'm seriously trying to keep these things reasonable and with as little bias as possible but these are the numbers I'm getting, folks. I can't possibly think to make them lower... I'm clearly swept away by the wave that is Galactica. I liked 'Valley of Darkness' a bit more than 'Scattered' but have loved them both and I can only hope 'Fragged' lives up to its predecessors.

alki
July 23rd, 2005, 06:27 PM
I want Starbuck and Helo to get it on!


HE_LO n STAR_BUCK, HE_LO n STAR_BUCK (chant with me now)

i like helo. way cuter than lee. i admire helo. i want helo...um, never mind....

where was i? oh yeah, the episode...

wasn't liking it all that much....i was surprised to not like it that much.

one of the very first episodes i've found myself going "well that's kinda goofy" to :S (besides the Bright Red Blood in "Scattered")

i did like the starbuck apt/hummer thing - but she was all hurting and sore when they first got to the apt, yet when they were getting in the jeep she was practically doing jumping jacks! no soreness there, all cured by hummer-love??!

and why can't they just go raid a grocery store for food or something? i mean, wouldn't y'all be doing some serious (albeit stealthy) raiding of necessary goods if stuck on caprica? (medical supplies, food, clothes, bottled water, etc)

the med kit thing with the peeps on kobol, oh that was waaaay too "we're-in-nam-now".

also, WHAT'S WITH NO ONE ON KOBOL HAVING AS YET WIPED THEIR B.R.B (BRIGHT RED BLOOD) OFF THEIR FACES???!!! I mean, c'mon, Six could maybe lick some off of baltar?

and the adama/baby thing? i was expecting him to put the baby in a reed basket and push the wee one down the river a-la moses.

that was too drawn out for a dream section....drowning was a better idea than the reed basket obviously -- (i mean, it's a dream induced make-believe cylon baby and all - let it be said that i am NOT for drowning babies, nor setting them adrift in reed baskets!!)

sigh, this episode just didn't do it for me.

the cylons were the best part.

at first anyway.

sigh, even with them, toward the end they were starting to prance a bit before being beheaded...prancing cylons.......NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

:o :) ;)

Liebestraume
July 23rd, 2005, 06:49 PM
Valley of Darkness entertained on so many different levels that I could hardly gather my thoughts when the credits rolled. Nearly 24 hours apparently hadn't helped that much.

First of all, thanks to larocque6689 for transcribing the podcast. I have not been listening to them this season for fear of spoilers. Reading the transcriptions now give me a new appreciation for what ended up on screen. For example, the bits about Tigh knowing where cylons were headed. Watching it I had thought it was the instinct of a seasoned soldier; now I know there was originally a backstory. But I think either way would work well.

I was not expecting to be moved by the events on Kobol. None of my favorite characters (i.e., Lee, Kara, Roslin, and Adama) are there, and I had not always thought of Tyrol very highly. But seeing what he had gone through to only bring about the mercy-killing of a friend was extremely touching. The death scene itself was heart-rending and sobering all at once: no one had control over life and death, but the most precious gift one could bestow is mercy. Needless to say, I cried like a little girl. :o

But the episode would not dwell on grief for long, for elsewhere humanity was fiercely fighting for its survival. I thought the action sequence on Galactica was extremely well done. I liked the juxtaposition of Roslin's group and Lee's, and that Cylon's menace was only felt, rather than shown, through the echo of their footsteps. And through the carnage they had left behind, which I especially appreciated, because it brought home the true nature of cylons, the precarious condition of humanity, and the bravery of those who serve aboard Galactica.

And there is none braver than Captain Adama. I totally agree with keshou's comments on Lee:
I really liked Lee in this. You know in every war there are men/women who end up as reluctant heros and I feel like that's what Lee is. Not a natural warrior he can nevertheless rise to the occasion. And he has principles.Yes, one knows he is not a natural warrior like Kara, because he never "gets high" in this type of situations. All that mumbling -- he did in Hand of God and he did it here -- makes him look a bit nervous but all the more admirable in the end. That he knows what needs to be done and does it regardless personal cost is his most fundamental characterization -- I'm so head-over-heel with this fictional character, it's not even funny! :p


Interesting insights into Kara’s past life and about who she is - and all from just seeing her apartment, not to mention what she said. Someone needs to dig up a screencap of what she had painted on her wall - the writing. I wonder if Zak’s death was somewhat of the inspiration of her paintings cause they didn’t look like they were painted by a happy person, if she was ever a truly happy person sometime in her life.I don't think she ever was a happy person, and sometimes I even wonder how trully happy she had been with Zak. I am really happy for these glimpses into a character's basic make-up. If we had thought Lee's got his daddy issues, then, watch out, here comes Kara. Her (erstwhile secret) Bohemian side initially shcoked me a litte. Then she mentioned her artistic father -- just the wistfulness of her quite reminiscence -- made many things about her falling into places.

Easter Lily
July 23rd, 2005, 07:06 PM
I'm not sure what I'm blown away by more... the episode itself or the great reviews on this thread... Jeff, that was a fabulous review... couldn't have said it better myself... You've encapsulated so well the essence of characters and the highlights of the episode. The eloquence with which you've expressed your thoughts befits the lyrical nature of this episode.

Have I ever said how much I love Lee... To see this uncertain, underestimated young man toddle through the enormity of his situation and showing himself to be capable of taking on the role of directing others has been very heartening and inspiring.
Like many of you, I liked Lee almost from the start... what others perceived to be weakness, I saw to be thoughtfulness and integrity. I particularly like what Adama said to Kara in The Hand of God, "the cylons never asked us what we wanted" and that I think is more true of Lee than anyone else. No one ever asks Lee what he wants but here he is time and time again, doing what he has to do to protect others, to put himself in between the enemy and those who cannot defend themselves. It is so good and so rare to see a young man in a television show today completely driven by principle and not ego. *sigh* The renegade, hormonally driven pubescent male can take its toll on one's patience.

In my eyes, Lee is becoming Apollo... he can be the hunter and shows that he has the potential to be the healer also. I understand why he is the loner... he has to be... because in the midst of the chaos and uncertainty, someone needs to take a few steps backwards and ask all the difficult questions.

Jeff O'Connor
July 23rd, 2005, 07:10 PM
Well said, Easter Lily! I, in turn, couldn't have put it any better, myself in regard to Lee -- you've essentially taken those subconscious feelings I've felt and brought them into light to be examined more thoroughly out in the open like so. He is becoming Apollo... agreed, through and through!

Thank you, by the way, for the compliments, too! Hehe.

Liebestraume
July 23rd, 2005, 08:07 PM
Jeff, thanks for the comprehensive review. I agree with you on every point therein, with two possible exceptions.

... watching Gaius Baltar genuinely care about something living, breathing and not named Gaius Baltar was riveting. Now, one might argue through the courtesy of modern-day over-analysis that caring, concern for his flesh and blood was a selfish behavior no different than such a feeling for his limbs, but most would nonetheless agree that another person is another person, whether it was his mental offspring or no, it wasn't him and that's enough.Baltar is positively certifiable these days, but I don't think he's changed fundamentally. Indeed, he does care about something that is that named Gaius Baltar, but only because that something is The Legacy of Gaius Baltar. What he saw in that "baby" was not so much of a living, breathing entity, only an extension of himself much beyond flesh and bones.

When the mini began, Baltar was just a lecherous coward with a much inflated ego. He still knew right from wrong, had the desire to do the right thing -- much like us -- only his actions were always tinted by excessive self-consideration.

But he has gone much beyond that since then. All those religous mumbo-jumbo Six whispered in his ear were meant to stroke his ego -- how he was the chosen vessel, the progenitor of "the shape of things to come" -- and it has worked like a charm. Recall that Jesus-like pose at the end of 6 Degrees of Separation, methinks that was the shape of things to come. I don't think Baltar is quite evil yet, but he is well on his way.


Terrible of me to not know his name by now, but the guard who's been on for two episodes, now, has had quite a bit of action and I've enjoyed his presence on the show, from the initial silent standing, to praying alongside Roslin, to watching over the President with genuine concern for her well-being in the midst of a Cylon boarding situation.Good of you to actually remember the guard, for most people -- myself included -- he was probably only a blip on the radar :o. But, yes, this show is really good in that it remembers these "small people." Details like that add credence to the story and make it relevant to the viewers. But I do wonder how much of the gaurd's change of attitude has to do with his belief in Roslin as the prophet ...

Jeff O'Connor
July 23rd, 2005, 08:47 PM
Interesting, Liebestraume; you're probably right, it's an extension of himself and thusly, quite important and Adama, he drowned an extension of the great Gaius Baltar, chosen one... you're absolutely correct, I agree! I'd thought of the situation as a whole, obviously, but not quite so muchly into its rich tapestry of linking with the man's having been groomed into believing himself an icon of all things.

As for Roslin and the guard, I think he wants to believe her to be some form of prophet, perhaps, simply for the same reason any would -- it's a sign of hope in a sea of darkness. I think that does play a part in things with him and his decisions but even then, I also believe the notion of being near the president, having someone of authority to adhere to and to protect in such a time of crisis, despite her being locked up for something, is also a subconscious assurance on the human mind that things could be right again, so long as we just climb that next mountain, fly to the nearest star.

Liebestraume
July 24th, 2005, 09:36 AM
As for Roslin and the guard, I think he wants to believe her to be some form of prophet, perhaps, simply for the same reason any would -- it's a sign of hope in a sea of darkness. I think that does play a part in things with him and his decisions but even then, I also believe the notion of being near the president, having someone of authority to adhere to and to protect in such a time of crisis, despite her being locked up for something, is also a subconscious assurance on the human mind that things could be right again, so long as we just climb that next mountain, fly to the nearest star.I hadn't thought about it that far, but what you said makes a lot of sense. The guard had been scared witless, but somehow the idea of doing something important (or even righteous, if he believed in all that prophecy stuff) sufficiently empowered him. At the same time, as a soldier, he had been conditioned to taking orders; having the authoritative Roslin nearby probably put him in his comfort zone. Quite an ironic twist.

Jeff O'Connor
July 24th, 2005, 10:05 AM
Battlestar Galactica -- where even characters whose names we can't recall for the life of us contain more depth than the leads for most other shows worldwide.

Easter Lily
July 24th, 2005, 01:57 PM
Very true Jeff...
BSG is, in my opinion, the most profoundly character driven scifi show I have ever seen... and I daresay its character development probably leaves most other shows for dead as well.

Here are some more thoughts on the two-parter...
http://www.livejournal.com/users/liliumscribe/5633.html

Agent_Dark
July 24th, 2005, 05:37 PM
Who dares, wins.

I believe that's the British Navy's motto, isn't it? I know it's the British... something-or-other's, I can't quite recall which. .
It's actually the motto of the British (and Aussie!) SAS ;)

Something I found interesting was the fact that Baltar wakes up where those skulls where, and Six tells him about the sacrifices and such that took place on Kobol. And then later on in the episode he witnesses Socoinus (or what ever his name was) be euthanased - something that has sparked alot of debate in real life over its morality.

Jeff O'Connor
July 24th, 2005, 05:49 PM
It's actually the motto of the British (and Aussie!) SAS ;)

Hey, thanks! :D


Something I found interesting was the fact that Baltar wakes up where those skulls where, and Six tells him about the sacrifices and such that took place on Kobol. And then later on in the episode he witnesses Socoinus (or what ever his name was) be euthanased - something that has sparked alot of debate in real life over its morality.

Ooh, also interesting...

Egeria
July 24th, 2005, 06:15 PM
I watched this ep tonight, crikey I can't get over the pace that this show sets. I've watched every ep so far and have to admit that I've been waiting for the inevitable 'slow down', but no show.

Watching BSG is akin to taking an illeagal substance....what a buzz.:) It really is a head rush.

I loved the insight into Kara's world, the artistic side to her really was a surprise.

The best bit for me , though, was the Tyrol/euthanasia scene...god I felt so emotional, it put goosebumps on me, it really got to me. This series really doesn't try to hide from the realties of life. Yes it is dark, but that's why I love it. It's honest, and so character driven beyond belief. Fantastic stuff.:D

entil2001
July 24th, 2005, 07:12 PM
This week continues the slow but steady exploration of all the craziness from the first season finale, and I couldn’t be happier. There’s no shortage of body count or red-shirts, and the stakes continue to rise as none of the adversaries, human or otherwise, seem ready to let threats from the outside get in the way of a grudge.

It would have been so easy for Tigh and Lee to bury the hatchet and let the whole business over the president be bygones. At least, I would have expected that from some other series. The writers didn’t disappoint me, because instead of taking the easy way out, they were only civil to one another while their goals were temporarily aligned. They didn’t discuss it outright or go into detail about it after the fact. They worked together when convenient, and then naturally acted like it never happened.

Speaking of the boarding party, I’m glad that there wasn’t some major lag between the end of the previous episode and the continuation of hostilities. I’m also very happy that the Cylon virus didn’t simply disappear. Consequences are everything on this show, and everything that happens in this episode is a consequence of poor command decisions in the premiere. It’s hard to think about that as the stakes get higher with every passing moment; quite literally, they brought the siege upon themselves.

The real question is whether or not the virus is going to continue to be a problem in the future. Wouldn’t it be fun to see Adama asking Tigh, in that low but deadly voice, why there’s a Cylon virus running around a bunch of systems that were never supposed to be connected? Like the previous episode, this is an ongoing commentary into the weaknesses of Tigh, and it’s not pretty. The man may be holding a grudge in realistic fashion, but it still doesn’t make it a good choice!

Events on Kobol seem more and more like a way to put the screws to Baltar and whatever allegiance he may retain to humanity. Those visions once again seem metaphorical, though it’s hard to tell with this series. Specific or otherwise, Baltar doesn’t just believe that a hybrid is necessary, but that humanity (embodied by the most threatening of humans) is the enemy of that necessary future. Step by step, Baltar is being conditioned into the perfect weapon against humanity.

I have the sinking feeling that the writers are slowly but surely wiping out the survivors on Kobol so that at some point before the remaining few are rescued, one of the better known characters will die. They’re simply running out of red-shirts down there! Six’s warning is just vague enough to make it possible that everyone but Baltar will die, but then again, it’s impossible to know if she’s saying all of that as part of the conditioning.

One thing that I didn’t quite get, from a story perspective, were the scenes on Caprica. They seemed out of place, though it was probably necessary to explain how Starbuck and Helo manage to get around in the following episodes. Was there a point to those scenes, though, beyond that plot element? It was some minor insight into Starbuck’s character, but at the moment, it doesn’t seem all that important in relation to the rest of the episode.

On the other hand, though, those scenes did give me a chance to breathe between the scenes on Galactica and Kobol, so I suppose they served that purpose. Overall, this was another fine installment. I really love how all these plot threads continue to move forward, bit by bit, and the writers don’t feel the need to bash the audience over the head with explicit meaning. The story is what it is, and the audience is invited along for the ride.

Liebestraume
July 24th, 2005, 07:44 PM
entil2001, I see this is only your 3rd post, so welcome aboard!

That was an excellent review. I enjoyed it especially because your approach seems to be through plot-advancement and hence brought up some points I hadn't considered before. The ramification of the virus, for example, is very interesting, but I kinda glossed it over while watching the show as I have a tendency to see each episode as character moments strung together. :p

As such, I think I have answer to your following question:
One thing that I didn’t quite get, from a story perspective, were the scenes on Caprica. They seemed out of place, though it was probably necessary to explain how Starbuck and Helo manage to get around in the following episodes. Was there a point to those scenes, though, beyond that plot element? It was some minor insight into Starbuck’s character, but at the moment, it doesn’t seem all that important in relation to the rest of the episode.I think the segment in Kara's "apartment" was quite significant. It looks like she is stuck on Caprica for a while, and the experience ultimately will have profound impact on her characterization (or at least so I hope). So, it's important for the viewers to learn who she was, how she got there, and why she does what she does. It is true that this part has nothing to do with what goes on elsewhere (at the moment), but BSG has always had these type of parallel storylines going then tied together at some later episode.

bad_ronald
July 24th, 2005, 10:48 PM
In fact, taking a second here to express my feelings regarding the artwork in particular... someone seriously does need to demonstrate a stillframe of whatever was written back there, I read only a little in my small chance to do so and am entirely intrigued.

No stillframe but...


Starbuck's Poem (as best I could read it):
*Note: see post #39 for revised version

Method sly
Smoking my
cigarette
every breath
breathe
the day
with every delicious
sip
I drink away the night
stroking my hair to
the beat of his heart
watching a
Boy turn
into a
Man

Easter Lily
July 24th, 2005, 11:58 PM
Thank you Ronald... Wow...
Wonder who the boy becoming a man is?
Zak, maybe?

Scoobing
July 25th, 2005, 03:34 AM
The music playing in Starbuck's apartment was "Metamorphosis One" by Phillip Glass. Remember that when producers and directors use a piece of music already composed there is a reason for their choice. Could the title be significant?

Metamorphosis = changing

So are we seeing a 'changing' in the characters, Starbuck adapting to the prospect of life on Caprica for a while, and adapting to Helo's new loyalties. Baltar changing with his own agenda to protect his 'baby'. I'm sure there are other examples of changing in the characters in this ep.

Wherever already composed music is used, I always try and find the name or context of it. 99% of the time it has some relevance to what is going on. :)

Sci-Fi
July 25th, 2005, 10:47 AM
From TV Guide: (http://tvguide.com/TV/Watercooler/)

"Valley of Darkness"

Now here's a situation I can identify with: the Cylon virus knocking out the main and auxiliary power on board, not unlike the many times that I blew a fuse with my AC while living in New York. Not that we had any auxiliary anything, you understand. We just had flashlights and basement fuse boxes that hung from their own wires. Enough about me, though. Yet another testament to how well done this show is the way they manage to make CGI Cylon warriors terrifying. You see exactly what it's like to run into one in a dark hallway, and it ain't pretty. And I didn't realize how freakin' big they were. Down on Caprica, Starbuck's laying into Helo. "Your girlfriend's from a lovely family," she says of Cylon Boomer. "Good people. Great values." Oh, c'mon. She's gonna give the guy crap when she already knows he's been on the run for months, one of only two humans (as far as he knew) on the entire planet? Well, yeah — apparently she is. Meanwhile, Baltar can't figure out why Adama, in a dream, would want to drown Baltar and Number Six's baby. Just a guess here, Doc, but I'm thinking it has something to do with your kid serving the purposes of the guys who nearly wiped out all of human civilization. Crazy talk, I know.

But who figured Starbuck for a painter, and not a bad one at that? Nice scene where she listens to the recording of her father playing classical piano, too. "Everyone I know is fighting to get back what they had," she says. "I'm fighting 'cause I don't know how to do anything else." Like I said, nice; just as the scene on Kobol, where Chief Tyrol has to deliver the fatal shot to the dying Socinus to make his death quick is painful to see. Great job cranking up the tension, too, when the last Cylon Centurions go for the aft damage-control room as the underarmed Apollo and his guys try to stop them. "We did it! We got 'em all! They don't look so big now, do they?" one guy screams after they get lucky and destroy the robots. "They were big enough," Apollo says. Good point — all the dead people around him would likely agree. Once again, great episode. Maybe we can wait a little longer for Adama to wake up. It's been pretty interesting with him out of the picture like this (not that it wasn't good when he was up and about, mind you; I'm just saying — especially since it seems to keep Tigh away from that pain-in-the-ass wife of his). — MP

:p ;) :) :D

Vorlon-1
July 25th, 2005, 02:22 PM
The Galactica. Big problems but they have the upper hand slightly, and are dealing with the boarding. The most intense, dark hallways, limited ammo and big scary robots leaving bodies on the floor everywhere.

Kobol. In trouble yes but not in any imminent danger. The planet is not cylon occupied but there are ground troops there. Still Very intense.

Caprica. Only two people on a planet that is occupied by the Cylons. Just killed one and the other stole thier only ride outta ther (more on that later).Yet the least intense scenes. Music playing and smoking a cigar getting to know one another again. Just being human.

3 different settings each more dire then the next yet so different in the moment. Truly amazing. Good film, amazing television.

Liebestraume
July 25th, 2005, 05:41 PM
Ok, I give. About the poem on Kara's wall ...

Most of it is pretty obvious, but what does "Method sly" mean? How does it work with the rest of the poem? :confused:

Thanks to bad_ronald for the transciption.

keshou
July 25th, 2005, 06:38 PM
It would have been so easy for Tigh and Lee to bury the hatchet and let the whole business over the president be bygones. At least, I would have expected that from some other series. The writers didn’t disappoint me, because instead of taking the easy way out, they were only civil to one another while their goals were temporarily aligned.
*nods* That was one of my very favorite scenes in an episode full of good scenes. The standoff at the end between Tigh and Lee. I love that they don't gloss over the events of the day and make everything "all right again". There's no trite writing on this show.


Consequences are everything on this show, and everything that happens in this episode is a consequence of poor command decisions in the premiere. It’s hard to think about that as the stakes get higher with every passing moment; quite literally, they brought the siege upon themselves.
You can trace the bad decisions all the way back to Kobol I & II. From Adama to Roslin to Starbuck on down. I do wonder how long these three separate story arcs will play out. I love watching all of them.


Events on Kobol seem more and more like a way to put the screws to Baltar and whatever allegiance he may retain to humanity. Those visions once again seem metaphorical, though it’s hard to tell with this series. Specific or otherwise, Baltar doesn’t just believe that a hybrid is necessary, but that humanity (embodied by the most threatening of humans) is the enemy of that necessary future. Step by step, Baltar is being conditioned into the perfect weapon against humanity.
Excellent, excellent points. I love the image of Baltar as the perfect weapon against humanity. It really didn't take Six much to get him to buy into the whole "hand of god" thing. But then they've known how easy he is to manipulate all along. Still - I wonder if there's another shoe to drop. I keep thinking there's something else we're going to find out about him that makes him important to the Cylons.


One thing that I didn’t quite get, from a story perspective, were the scenes on Caprica. They seemed out of place, though it was probably necessary to explain how Starbuck and Helo manage to get around in the following episodes. Was there a point to those scenes, though, beyond that plot element? It was some minor insight into Starbuck’s character, but at the moment, it doesn’t seem all that important in relation to the rest of the episode.
I think I recall hearing (in the podcast?) that this was extra footage they couldn't fit into the first episode so they put it in this one. I didn't find it that out of place. In fact the juxtaposition of seeing Starbuck and Helo relaxing in the "eye of the storm" was a nice counterbalance to the "storm" taking place on Galactica. And to the human tragedy taking place on Kobol as Tyrol lost his friend.

I loved reading your analysis. In fact I've loved reading EVERYONE's analysis on this episode. It's nice to have a small BSG oasis here on Gateworld to discuss the show. Because I'm sure not eager to join another fandom. Fandom is nuts, you know. :p :D

keshou
July 25th, 2005, 06:53 PM
Ok, I give. About the poem on Kara's wall ...
Most of it is pretty obvious, but what does "Method sly" mean? How does it work with the rest of the poem? :confused:
Thanks to bad_ronald for the transciption.
I wonder if all the letters are right- that must have been hard to see.

Could it perhaps be "methodically"? Or "........lay" ? The rest of the poem is pretty straight forward so it's hard to believe they'd throw in "Method sly" just to confuse us. :)

And thanks bad_ronald. That's interesting. I like all the small touches they throw in on this show.

Liebestraume
July 25th, 2005, 09:07 PM
It is indeed hard to make out. The part after "with every delicious" is relatively legible, because there is a close-up of Kara that shows the lower part of poem. But the begining part was hard to see.

I'm thinking perhaps it opens with Melancholy instead of Method(??)ly -- somehow it just fits the mood.

bad_ronald
July 25th, 2005, 10:46 PM
Yes, it was extremely difficult to make out the upper portion; that is why I made sure to note (as best I could read it). It does look like two distinct words, but I agree that "methodically" is the best fit (I only saw one 'l' though). I don't think that it could be "melancholy", but I could be wrong...


Starbuck's Poem (revised)

Methodically
Smoking my
cigarette
with every breath
I breathe
out the day
with every delicious
sip
I drink away the night
stroking my hair to
the beat of his heart
watching a
Boy turn
into a
Man

Keshou, Liebestraume, and Easter Lily, it was no problem at all to post it :) .

Liebestraume
July 26th, 2005, 05:58 PM
bad_ronald, you are right. It's Methosomething. I found a screenshot here (http://galactica.emedian.net/episode/2.02/imagepages/image3.html).

bad_ronald
July 26th, 2005, 06:45 PM
Thanks for the screenshot, Liebestraume. I also noticed that there should be an "I" before "breathe", and that there is a difficult to see word that precedes "the day". It ends in a 't' and could be "out"... though "with every breath I breathe out the day" is somewhat odd. The letter before the 't' could also be a 'c' (depending on whether it's the right side of a 'u' or not ;) ). I'll make it "out" for now.

Well, from now on, I'll just update post #39 :) .

voigtstr
September 12th, 2005, 08:24 PM
The music playing in Starbuck's apartment was "Metamorphosis One" by Phillip Glass. Remember that when producers and directors use a piece of music already composed there is a reason for their choice. Could the title be significant?

Metamorphosis = changing

So are we seeing a 'changing' in the characters, Starbuck adapting to the prospect of life on Caprica for a while, and adapting to Helo's new loyalties. Baltar changing with his own agenda to protect his 'baby'. I'm sure there are other examples of changing in the characters in this ep.

Wherever already composed music is used, I always try and find the name or context of it. 99% of the time it has some relevance to what is going on. :)

I'm haunted by the music from StarBuck's apartment.

If you want to listen to it again free head to http://www.philipglass.com/html/pages/glass-engine.html#
once the java loads drag the top slider to metamorphosis 1 and enjoy..
(one thing though.. the show's musician is a better pianist than the composer Philip Glass)

This is actually a very cool java applet. You can listen to practically all of Phillip Glass' catalog through this interface. (I had no idea he did the music for the Truman Show)

cyke
January 7th, 2006, 07:34 PM
I would say that this is my favorite episode of BSG. I watched all of season 2.0 and the premiere and this one take the cake for being the best, not to say the others were bad by any means. But as far as action, suspense, drama, etc this was it. No light hearted moment here, i felt the pressure, the need, and suspense all through out the episode. I was on the edge of my seat the whole time and how much do you love Lee after this episode. This guy has been arrested, father's shot, but he's calm and focused on the ship and destoys the cylons. This episode had everything which every had already mentioned so i wont say it.. but wow amazing.

Matt G
January 17th, 2006, 02:53 PM
OK...another slow mover but a good one.

1. Cylon invasion = cool!

2. Didn't like the euthanasia scene, but then again I don't like euthanasia.

3. Balter's well and trult getting his head screwed.

4. Lee vs Tigh - 'the old man' has clearly told Lee all about his background.

JamesM
January 19th, 2006, 02:06 PM
Maybe I was having an off day watching this, but I didn't think it was the best episode... I expected more from the Clyons for some reason.

MB.Eddie
November 7th, 2006, 07:37 AM
Loved this ep. They were due for an ep where they got boarded imo, and the Cylon plan of ejecting everyone into space and destroying the fleet was quite clever. Those centurians are certainly tough. Tigh was very good in command, and if it wasnt for him, they would have all died. Seeing starbucks house and stuff was cool too.

I found that whole scene where they killed their injured comrade to be very well done. Very well acted and writen :)

The last scene with Tigh and Apollo was very good. Shows that they both have problems, but the Commander brings out the best in em...

Catsitter
July 4th, 2007, 12:54 AM
I just watched this episode on the DVD last night, and maybe not quite as good as "Scattered", but still very good. Having watched the deleted scenes afterwards, I'm glad that none of those made it into the finished episode, although I liked the flashback, I would rather think that Tigh knew the Cylons' plans from his own experience rather than from something Adama told him.

I noticed Kate Vernon's name at the beginning as "guest star" but I don't remember her being in the actual episode, only in a deleted scene? I was getting in a bit of a panic about four minutes from the end as I thought since she was in it and hadn't appeared yet that she was going to be in the last scene, and I so wanted the last scene to be Tigh and Adama, so that was a relief. Nothing against Kate Vernon, I just thought the last scene should be.. exactly as it was. I loved seeing Tigh's impatience for Lee to leave at the end of the scene between them too!

icsteffi
July 9th, 2010, 10:25 AM
Just want to say that this was my favorite episode thus far:

I think its safe to say that I just screamed louder than I have in my entire life. The word that echoed around the world: "HEAD-SHOT!" Besides that loudest scream of my life, there were plenty of other screams, many many tears, and even a giggle or two. Blu-ray goodness.

(P.S. the song that Starbuck played in her apartment....frak man, frak. So amazing.)

TBA
July 9th, 2010, 10:45 AM
It's one of my favourites as well. At what episode are you now?

Other episodes I list among my 'favourites' are:
- Downloaded: finally an episode with the Cylon POV. The acting and writing in this episode is really amazing.
- Lay Down Your Burdens: brilliant cliffhanger, and an episode that pushed the series in an exciting new direction
- Occupation: brilliant season opener, again with an exciting new direction
- Unfinished Business: character drama. Just brilliantly done.
- Taking a Break From All Your Worries: very good Baltar-centric episode, you finally see who he 'really' is.
- The Oath/Blood on the Scales: no explaining needed here I think ;)

Gamma626
August 11th, 2010, 09:36 PM
I got the complete series for my birthday on Monday. This is my favorite episode yet! The blu's look and sound amazing.

mysterywriter012
August 13th, 2010, 03:50 PM
Happy belated birthday! Enjoy it :)

the fifth man
September 2nd, 2010, 05:26 PM
Just finished watching this episode a little while ago with my wife. This is her first time watching this show, and we started Season 2 tonight. So far, she really loves it. Re-watching this show with her is great, because she is always bugging me to tell her what happens next.:) I am really glad that she took to BSG like she has thus far.

Ulkesh47
November 15th, 2010, 11:34 AM
An effective and tense piece, but also at times poetic, through the use of good scoring.

Of course, all of the suspense of the Cylon boarding party is released in one brilliant action moment when a Centurion leaps at Apollo, and he barely redirects its course with an explosive round.

My favorite scene from the episode, however, was the death of Socinus. The use of the Season 1 theme as emotional layering really worked for me, as Tyrol comforted the man that took a fall for him out of loyalty.

Another couple of scenes greatly enhanced by music: the drowning, accompanied by wonderfully frantic scoring, and of course the Starbuck apartment scene that's pretty much universally highlighted.

This episode was a solid outing for all concerned, but especially for Bear McCreary and for the musical layering on display.

7/10

Professor_S
June 4th, 2011, 02:48 PM
Three distinct stories told so dang well.

I really enjoyed the mythical backstory. It's always fascinating when they flesh out that story, and all the more interesting how they weave it with the current storyline in a marvelous tapestry.

The scene in Starbuck's apartment was amazing. It gave us such insight into her character. A nod has to go out to McCreary, too - the Dreilide Thrace Sonata is gorgeous.

Laura Roslin. I know I've said it before, but she's just tough as nails. I *LOVE* it. And MM pulls it off perfectly. She was able to show us how devastated Roslin was by the carnage around her, while still portraying Roslin as the strong leader she is. And so magnanimous too. It's a delicate balance - portraying Roslin as strong but still human - and MM does it really well.

Great ending too. It's a devastating episode, but there's still a small shimmer of light amidst the darkness.

mrscopterdoc
June 19th, 2014, 11:25 AM
Just finished watching this episode a little while ago with my wife. This is her first time watching this show, and we started Season 2 tonight. So far, she really loves it. Re-watching this show with her is great, because she is always bugging me to tell her what happens next.:) I am really glad that she took to BSG like she has thus far.
I'm watching it with hubby, my first time and he's seen it before. I keep asking him questions too :P