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Scoobing
July 17th, 2005, 05:00 AM
As Commander Adama fights for his life, Colonel Tigh takes command of Galactica.

Discuss.

:)

Agent_Dark
July 17th, 2005, 05:41 AM
Besides 'it was frakken awesome'? :D :P

kiwigater
July 17th, 2005, 05:46 AM
hmmm, where to start!?!? :D

First off, I'm a bit bummed about the change in opening credits :( I know a lot of you prefer the UK version, and I really like the song, but I was a big fan of the drum beat bit at the end (altho I usually averted my eyes during the wee spoilerish clips). I would kinda like to see the percussion side of things make a comeback :D

And to think I was worried it wouldn't live up to my expectations! Wonderful! :D Loved all of it - the only thing that bugged me was that we didn't get to see ENOUGH of each of the different threads of the story :S I felt like poor Starbuck didn't get much, but given the huge number of strands to deal with, it's understandable. I would have LOVED to see a 2 hour season opener *drools* Listened to part of Ron Moore's podcast, and I can only say, I'm glad they didn't go with their initial plan - which was to not revisit Adama until ep 2 or 3! :eek:

I can't wait to see what happens to the Sharon's I SO didn't see Caprica-Sharon stealing the cylon ship! NOW what are they supposed to do! AND how on earth (or should I say Kobol :p ) are they all gonna end up in the same place at the end? And I loved how poor Galactica-Sharon had no idea what she'd done... woulda loved to see a little better her realisation that she'd shot Adama, I felt like that was skipped over a bit (or is that just me? perhaps I should rewatch just in case I missed something :p ). So much happening, can't wait till next week.

This show has definitely jumped to the top of my "most anticipated" shows list! :D

Scoobing
July 17th, 2005, 05:51 AM
the only thing that bugged me was that we didn't get to see ENOUGH of each of the different threads of the story

I agree, hehe, I want longer eps. :P
I think this is one of the things that make this show so good. TPTB have placed characters that started off all together, so we have backstory and characterisation, and spread them very far apart.

This makes for episodes with so much going on in the time given. It really feels like each episode is full to the brim!

yaaayoubetcha
July 17th, 2005, 05:57 AM
I liked it...

With Tigh taking over command, temporarily at least, I hope they jumpstart his evil wife storyline...either in conjunction with Zarek or something independant...either way, i hope they make a quick, but interestingly brutal arc that ends with her death...preferably out an air lock...


She really bothers me....which is, i suppose, a sign of good writing and acting.

If the first ep is the benchmark for the season, it's gonna be a stellar season.

LoneStar1836
July 17th, 2005, 11:31 AM
With Tigh taking over command, temporarily at least, I hope they jumpstart his evil wife storyline...either in conjunction with Zarek or something independant...either way, i hope they make a quick, but interestingly brutal arc that ends with her death...preferably out an air lock...LOL! I kind of like her character in that she is so power-hungry. She’s a total b****, so she must not be a Cylon. It’s too obvious. :D But her ultimate fate out an air lock would be preferable, but I’m afraid she’ll try to pull Tigh under with her with whatever she has in mind.

As to the episode, I’ll just repost my thoughts with some additions.

Frak that was good. Edge of my seat the whole time.

Very fast paced episode. They have really got the multiple storylines going now. I wish these shows were an hour and 30 minutes so they can fit all the stuff they want to write into them cause this one was crammed but done very well.

Good stuff with Tigh. These upcoming eps with him in command are going to be an interesting insight into his character. Like RDM said, he'll have no problem handling the Cylon boarding party, but the political stuff he's not so good at.

Poor Crashdown. I like him, yet he makes for a terrible leader when under pressure. So does anyone else think those were not Cylons shooting at Tyrol and Cally and that poor other redshirt? Tactics seemed off to be Cylon toasters. I’m thinking other humans, but after listening to RDM’s podcast they seem to be Cylons. *shrug*

Umm, the baby is Six and Baltar’s…….that’s going to be interesting. I was so sure that was Boomer and Helo’s. But then again who knows. :S

With Baltar having all that access to the blood samples of every person in the fleet, it brings up an interesting point that EJO made in the Sci-Fi Insider that Cylons are manipulating human DNA and could eventually make Cylon clones of normal humans, if that's not what they haven't already been doing. I always assumed that Boomer never really ever existed as a real human, but that raises the question that what if at one point she was a real human even if only as a child, then she was replaced. With Baltar having acces to all that blood and Six manipulating him, we could very well end up with an Adama Cylon model in the future. Some how that blood info gets passed off to another Cylon who then gets it to their Cylon buddies on a BaseStar and bam they grow an Adama. I think that might would be an interesting angle to play up at some point.

LOL! Starbuck’s comment when Boomer took off with her raider. “B**** took my ride.” :D

Yeah, I was bummed about the credits but thankfully they were still actually able to hold on to even having the dang thing. I’m sure Sci-Fi had a hand in making them shorter even though RDM said on his podcast that having the preview shots was already being debated and he was for keeping them. I still like the U.S. version music better and don’t agree with RDM that the UK version is more fitting, but hey at least we still have some nice visuals to go along with the music (which I do like but is still not the same intensity as what we had) unlike the travesty that has befallen Stargate’s. :mad:

Redwall
July 17th, 2005, 11:56 AM
My only real question was: how does Tyrol know so much about combat? I can understand the high ground and supplies bits, but he seems to be pretty handy with a rifle, too, despite the fact he's a naval officer (well, noncom) who controls a flight deck. I do like the conflict between him and Crashdown though... I can totally understand the poor pilot's distress.

Also, the prayer bit with Roslin was a bit sudden/jarring.

Loved the look on Gaeta's face after Tigh's comment about Baltar.

And, yeah, "***** stole my ride." :D

Ses
July 17th, 2005, 11:59 AM
Undeniably it was an amazing episode, but I had expected better after such a strong season finale.
I'm not a terribly huge Tigh fan and felt there was way too much focus on him. :/

keshou
July 17th, 2005, 12:24 PM
Ah - here's the thread. :)

I LOVED the S2 opener. My favorite (by far) of the Friday night premieres. I've heard some fans complain that they really didn't wrap up any of the cliffhangers from the S1 finale but I love multi-episode story arcs and if they'd wrapped all those up in one episode I would have been disappointed.

Just was on the edge of my seat. I loved all the angst of Tigh being in charge - man does he have "issues" - and when they did the FTL and the Galactica ended up all alone. My heart just dropped. Of course I'm immediately thinking Gaeta may be a sleeper Cylon and I'm still not sure he isn't. I think someone on that bridge is.

Locking poor Lee Adama up while he's screaming about his father. And the "interrogation" of Boomer by Tigh. Man this show doesn't pull any punches. I think we're seeing a new Lee emerge. And I like it.

I also love all the possibilities with Roslin being locked up, Adama shot and Tigh in charge. This is going to be really complicated and frakked up.

And the scenes on Kobol. Loved it. I wasn't sure if those were Cylons shooting at the good guys or not - you're right LS, it seemed a little off. But if that's what the podcast says then I guess Ron Moore knows. I really liked the gritty depiction of this unit reacting to the stress of seeing their teammates die and other officers being not quite up to the task. No perfect makeup with a few black streaks on the cheekbones on this show. And I *heart* Tyrol. and Callie.

I STILL think Six is referring to Helo/CapricaBoomer's child in her little mindgame with Baltar. I can't see HOW it's their child unless Baltar is about to give birth. ;) I fully expect CapricaBoomer to end up on the Galactica and that's where Baltar comes in with the child.

Unfortunately I was spoiled by the Cylon invasion of the Galactica so I knew what that weird ship crashing into the Galactica meant. Still, it freaks me out to see those toasters with the red flashing eyes. I don't know why they scare me so much. :eek:

Maybe the only disappointment was not enough Starbuck/Helo/Boomer on Caprica. I'm also a little confused why Helo is so accepting of CapricaBoomer now - even if she's carrying his child.

I also am not sure how all the Cylon's are linked. CapricaBoomer mentioned that CapricaSix's consciousness was being downloaded and soon everyone would know where they are. So it goes back to some sort of central processing system? How can that link be in place and the Cylons don't appear to be linked at all in other ways.

The whole DNA thing is interesting. I always assumed - with the talk of 12 models - that the Cylons sort of created synthetic human Cylons from scratch. But if they can gather human DNA and come up with new models. In effect, replace ANYONE, that adds an interesting wrinkle to everything. Clearly all the "Boomers" have the same memories of knowing Starbuck, etc. That's freaky.

Can't wait to see how all this plays out over the next few weeks.

Oh, I'm also bummed about the new opening. At least it's not mutilated like SG-1 and Atlantis but I still miss the old U.S. theme. I liked the woodwinds and the beat of the drums. :(

LoneStar1836
July 17th, 2005, 12:45 PM
Someone on that bridge will turn out to be a Cylon. You just know they will. The only one I’m sure of is Adama. Now if he turns out to be one then like he said in another episode, “We are all screwed.” :D At the moment, I'm entertaining the idea that Roslin is a possible Cylon.

I STILL think Six is referring to Helo/CapricaBoomer's child in her little mindgame with Baltar. I can't see HOW it's their child unless Baltar is about to give birth. ;)I fully expect CapricaBoomer to end up on the Galactica and that's where Baltar comes in with the child.LOL! I hope so (about it being Boomer’s, not Baltar’s :P), but she’s so freakin’ cryptic that I’m not sure whether to take what she says at face value or attach a different meaning to it.

Maybe the only disappointment was not enough Starbuck/Helo/Boomer on Caprica. I'm also a little confused why Helo is so accepting of CapricaBoomer now - even if she's carrying his child.Maybe Helo is a Cylon. ;) Nah, he’s the only one we know for sure isn't since they wanted his DNA.

I think they’ve got some good stuff for Starbuck in the future and that’s why they didn’t spend any more time in this ep than they did on her and Helo. I couldn’t resist looking at pics from future episodes. *slap* I need to stop doing that.

Liebestraume
July 17th, 2005, 02:46 PM
I quite enjoyed the season opener. Not only did it not collapse under the colossal weight of my expectation all summer long, it left me clamoring for the next episode the same way it had when KLG II's credits rolled 3 months ago (but, then, probably this is because I am spoiler-free).

Tigh is not one of my favorite characters, so I was (pleasantly) surprised by how much I liked this somewhat Tigh-centric episode. Though the flash-back scenes did not make aesthetic-appealing imageries :p, they gave us glimpses into what makes Tigh tick -- he is essentially a follower who needs guidance of another strong personality. This is why he is a good second-in-command to Adama and, simultaneously, a pliant husband to Ellen -- guess this answered my "what did he see in her?" question from before :D. In any case, his utterance "I don't like to command" was a foregone conclusion. It will be interesting to see how Tigh does command from here on out. Would all that power go to his head, especially at a time when the civillian government is in shambles?

And speaking of the civillian government, I am wondering if its head will continue to be as "spiritual" when she is away from the influence of her religious advisor. I didn't like Roslin sent Kara on an essentially suicide mission the purpose of which only a very selected few believed in; and, although Adama's disposing of her was wrong, I don't think he acted without ample provocation. I am quite looking forward to seeing how the conflict between military and civillian government will be resolved (or if it's going to be resolved) and, especially, how Lee would continue to mature and assert his independence through the challenges. He said to Roslin that he didn't do "it" for her. Let's see how he could retain that idealism.

Like keshou, I am also a littel confused by Helo's sudden change of heart when it comes to "Sharon" -- would the fact that she is carrying his child automatically make her trustworthy? I laughed out loud at Kara's "men are so stupid." She said with such frustration and conviction that it was an instant favorite; I like it even better than the "biotch stole my ride" quote. You go, girl!

Interestingly enough, after the tension-filled hour the plot didn't really advance that much. Galactica is still pretty much left with the same mess that started the season, except now there is a cylon bording party to contend with. Besides that, there are (at least) two new questions that intrigue:
(1) Was cylon virus successful in penetrating all 4 of Gaeta's firewalls?
(2) Is there any significance to Door #3 (in the flash back)?
I wish I could listen to RDM's podcast, but I hear it's spoiler-ridden. :(

yaaayoubetcha
July 17th, 2005, 03:22 PM
I rather like the growing parallels tween the President and Zarek.

All first season whenver Zarek was mentioned, it was generally as traitor and terrorist for his previous actions. The rare follower or sympathetic person stepped forward and said freedom fighter.

And now here's the President, having had a spiritual (as opposed to moral or political) awakening committing an arguably treasonous act and co-opting Starbuck into helping...

Ironic...

It will be interesting to see how they let that parallel play out.

Also, I don't think it was the Cylons shooting at the Chief either. My immediate thought was that it was Crashdown but i'd have thought if it was, they would have resolved that in the ep. Perhaps Kobol already has some residents. Other refugees from the colonies or perhaps residents that have taken up ownership of the planet since the colonies left. Would make an interesting side story arc. The politics of dealing with a native gov't when the fleet commander is in the hospital and the president is in the brig. Leaves Baltar as the highest ranking member of the civilian gov't and i don't think I'd want him representing my interests!

Jonisa
July 17th, 2005, 06:27 PM
Someone on that bridge will turn out to be a Cylon. You just know they will. The only one I’m sure of is Adama. Now if he turns out to be one then like he said in another episode, “We are all screwed.” :D At the moment, I'm entertaining the idea that Roslin is a possible Cylon.

Yep, I agree. Recently I've been worried that it's Lee. I keep thinking back to the Cylon that whispered to the president, "Adama is a Cylon." He never specified which Adama now, did he? :S

I don't like the idea of a Leebot though, so I hope I'm wrong. And I usually am about these things, so... :p


I think they’ve got some good stuff for Starbuck in the future and that’s why they didn’t spend any more time in this ep than they did on her and Helo. I couldn’t resist looking at pics from future episodes. *slap* I need to stop doing that.

I'm completely spoilerfree, but it's *not* easy! :D

Oh, and I loved the episode. Loved Lee's tightly controlled emotions erupting to the surface. Then he looked almost numb while talking to the president. Dragging him away from his father like that. Wow. Oh well, Lee/Angst = OTP. :D

Loved Starbuck's, "***** took my ride." and "Men are so stupid!" lines. The crew crashed on Kobol reminded me of the intensity of some of the scenes from "Saving Private Ryan" or "Band of Brothers". Poor, poor Tyrol. He looked absolutely crushed. Cally might look fragile, but she's got a backbone.

The only part of the show that I didn't *love* were the Baltar/Six scenes, mostly because I'm not really getting that part of the storyline. Minor quibble though. If they can keep this up for the entire year, this season is going to be amazing.

Agent_Dark
July 17th, 2005, 07:27 PM
RE the enemies that Tyrol and co were up against on Kobol: The weapons certainly sounded like the large caliber guns the Cylon Centurions have on their hands, so I'm pretty sure it was the Cylons. Add that to the fact that they heard the sonic boom of a ship coming down into the atmosphere - considering that that Cylon Basestar was the only thing up there (Galactic was way to busy to send anything else down ;)).

Also, I have to wonder if the Cylons are actually deliberately not trying to kill all of them. Baltar is with that group, and from what I gather, the Cylons may be more interested in keeping him alive. Also consider the fact that even though the Cylons have massively superiour technology and numbers, the Galactica has managed not only to survive, but in some cases take the fight back to them. It makes me wonder wether the Cylons are almost 'toying' with them.

LoneStar1836
July 17th, 2005, 09:11 PM
Maybe that’s why they did not advance towards Tyrol, etc. I just though the tactic of Cylon toasters taking cover, a little off. To me they just seem like they would advance on a position at all cost. But since they know Baltar is with them, then I like your idea that they may prefer to keep them alive for their own reasons.

Oh yeah, Baltar is somewhat “in charge” of the government now. :S I wouldn't have voted for him either. :D At least Tigh has some sense when it comes to what he really is though. I don’t think Adama is that trusting of him either, but Tigh has him pegged. It’s going to be interesting how this whole thing with Adama and Roslin plays out and how she regains her power (if she does b/c I don't know). The political wrangling is going to be intriguing once the Council finds out what is going on. Future spoiler. So don't read you spoilerphobes! :DI wonder if that is what leads Tigh to declare marshal law?

Yeah, I never though it was anybody from Galactica. Was Galactica even in orbit around Kobol? Boomer and Racetrack jumped back in the Raptor and then the whole thing with Lee and Roslin. I don’t think Adama ever had the chance to order a jump to Kobol. I thought maybe they might have been other humans who happened to find their way to Kobol, but RDM on the podcast didn’t seem to focused on that scene except for describing the echo of the gunfire and that they chose not to have any background score.

How cool were those images of the Cylon raiders leaving the Base Star? That was amazing CGI. Also interesting to see how they actually launch from a Base Star. They look like they are actually popping up out of a slot in a toaster. :P


Yep, I agree. Recently I've been worried that it's Lee. I keep thinking back to the Cylon that whispered to the president, "Adama is a Cylon." He never specified which Adama now, did he? :S

I don't like the idea of a Leebot though, so I hope I'm wrong. And I usually am about these things, so... :PThat’s nice to know that you are usually wrong. :P:D I’d die if Lee turned out to be a Cylon in the end.

I think Leoben was just screwing with Roslin, but then you never know with those things.
Oh, and I loved the episode. Loved Lee's tightly controlled emotions erupting to the surface. Then he looked almost numb while talking to the president. Dragging him away from his father like that. Wow. Oh well, Lee/Angst = OTP. :DThat was so cold of Tigh to do that, but the scene was still powerful even though I’ve probably heard Lee scream “He’s my father” umpteen jillion times this summer in commercials. Good stuff from Jamie Bamber. His character is probably going to do a lot of maturing this season. Nice little tid bit in RDM’s podcast that the medic was Bamber’s wife. Just knew a good lookin’ man like that couldn’t be single. ;)

Agent_Dark
July 17th, 2005, 09:32 PM
Maybe that’s why they did not advance towards Tyrol, etc. I just though the tactic of Cylon toasters taking cover, a little off. To me they just seem like they would advance on a position at all cost. But since they know Baltar is with them, then I like your idea that they may prefer to keep them alive for their own reasons.

Yeah, we've seen them do it before against Helo (I mean come on. Two Centurians fail to take out one injured guy who only has a pistol?) They weren't there to kill him, just make it hard for him. I think the same thing might be happening to Baltar and Tyrol and Co on Kobol



How cool were those images of the Cylon raiders leaving the Base Star? That was amazing CGI. Also interesting to see how they actually launch from a Base Star. They look like they are actually popping up out of a slot in a toaster. :P

Yep, great CGI there along with the shot of Apollo and Kat flying into Galactica's flak suppresion field :D
I also liked the furball that they had near the end. Was nice to hear some of the chit-chatter among the pilots as they blew away the raiders :)

Jonisa
July 18th, 2005, 03:32 AM
That’s nice to know that you are usually wrong. :P:D I’d die if Lee turned out to be a Cylon in the end. I think Leoben was just screwing with Roslin, but then you never know with those things.

Ergh, me too. I'm hoping Leoben was just screwing with Roslin myself. I wouldn't worry if it was anyone but Ron Moore, but he seems to be fearless in what he's willing to do with the characters. I'd better be wrong. Mr. Moore, bad idea to have the hunky, angsty leading man that everyone seems to love be a Cylon! Very bad idea! Do *not* go there. :p


Nice little tid bit in RDM’s podcast that the medic was Bamber’s wife. Just knew a good lookin’ man like that couldn’t be single.

Not only single, but with three kids under the age of 3. Busy household, that one.

Interesting that the medic is Jamie Bamber's wife. I liked the character and hoped we'll see more of her.

Question for you, since you listened to the podcast in its entirety. I started to, and then he warned that he was going to be spoiling a couple of upcoming episodes and I clicked it off immediately. Did he give any hint as to how many episodes ahead he was spoiling? I want to listen to it, but I want to wait until after the episodes air and I need an idea of when that is. Any help would be greatly appreciated. :D

Jeff O'Connor
July 18th, 2005, 05:46 PM
I loved it. As much of a Stargate diehard as I've become over the past two years or so since I started watching, BSG has stolen my heart from SG-1, from Atlantis, from Farscape... it's my favorite show, quite possibly ever, and its second season has only just begun.

What did I like about this episode?

The attention to addressing each character's current status as of the season premiere. We saw Crashdown, Galen Tyrol and Cally with their other allies coming together and braving the stalked wilderness of Kobol, evading and confronting the Cylons. We saw Tyrol and Crashdown clashing, we saw Tyrol and Cally's heroics -- and the heroics of another, whose name I can't recall for the life of me, though he fell in a skirmish against the enemy on the trio's way back to the others. You know -- the one who was shot... a lot of times. We saw loads of Tigh, more on that later. We saw Adama's condition, of course. We saw Starbuck, Helo and Boomer, too. We saw the Galactica Boomer's treatment by Tigh. We saw Apollo, his interactions with the imprisoned Madam President. We saw Baltar a little... we saw every side that was left dangling.

The insight on Tigh which was one of few things badly needed in the first year -- he's drunk and his wife's a beeyitch, he knows Adama but from where? Surely, Tigh's gotten more development in a freshman year than most characters on television but in a show this good, that's not enough! We got some, this past Friday, and boy, was it interesting. Just the notion that he was apparently going to off himself until he got word of being reinstated into the fleet was rather tragic, quite intriguing. Poor guy. I still dislike him -- not in the sense that I don't like the character, I like every character in this show, I mean I don't like him, so much, I wouldn't want to work with him -- but I have gained even more respect for the man nonetheless.

That scene with Roslin and Lee's guard was quite well done -- when he came before them and asked if she would pray with him. I was moved by the moment and the way they had him continue said prayer while showing the ongoing fight was brilliance.

Lieutenant Gaeta has been one of my favorite characters in general since day one and watching him in action, in his doubting and depression, then his decisive moments amidst the episode, even when standing against the apathetic... well, all right, I can't quite remember his name, either, but I don't recall him from any other episodes -- a tad heavyset, aboard the bridge with Tigh and Gaeta, constantly shaking his head at Gaeta's plans. Also, him and the Firewall premise was some good watchin', too. Oh, and Dualla's brief scene of reassurance made me feel nice and warm inside momentarily, in a show of so much darkness where despite the obvious facts that these characters do, in general care about one-another, there's just too much going on to show it off with a calmer attitude, rather than fast-paced, life-or-death dramatic, all that often.

Starbuck pulling a gun on Boomer was priceless. I mean, not priceless in the sort've 'wow, never saw that coming' way, because I think it's safe to say it'd happen sooner or later, sooner rather than later in most cases. Just priceless in the sense that it was interesting to see Helo leap afront her weapon and beg the woman not to do it, given the circumstances. This and Kara's subsequent reaction were quite entertaining and understandable.

Seeing Lee piloting alongside Hot Dog and the others Starbuck began to train was pretty cool. It's not like it hasn't happened before, it's just that I'm glad the writers had the sense to know Tigh would simply have to ask him to fight for their lives despite his going straight back to his prison cell as soon as said battle would be over.

Baltar's reaction to Six seeming to be quite serious in all senses of the word about his being the child's father and her being the mother was humorous and I digged it entirely.

Jamie Bamber's wife saved Bill Adama's life! Not only does this rhyme, but it's quite fun, too, and methinks some time from now, it'll be interesting DVD trivia and the like. In general, it's kind've interesting to think about the fact that the actor who plays Adama's son, his wife saved her husband's character's father. Man, Dark Helmet would be proud.

Call me crazy, but there's something about watching Cylon Raiders launched from the Base Stars like bees from the hive, unsticking and assaulting, that just fits my groove on all cylinders. No clue why, really, it just does. This episode in particular offered an interesting shot of such an event -- closer in angle than I recall any of the previous episodes depicting, we could see them break free from docking stations on the outer rim of the 'hangarbay' of sorts, like, as I said, bees. Killer bees, I'd suppose!

Last but not least, that it was new. My head's been screaming loudly for new BSG and I finally got it, and there's a heck load more where that came from. Woot! Bring it on.

What didn't I like about this episode?

Not a whole lot, but a little here and there, I suppose. I'll list it for good measure -- first've all, I wish there was more on the Starbuck, Helo and Boomer situation. Don't get me wrong, I think they threw in as much as they could right now and I know full well there's quite a bit coming back on Caprica, too. I just... was really, really looking forward to seeing this above all else for whatever reason and it didn't have quite so much as I'd hoped. But as I said, this is rather invalid anyway, since, well, it's coming, heh heh.

I wish Billy had been a bit more vocal, but I understand that there was a chance he'd be leaving the show at least for the most part, if a certain pilot passed the grade, which it didn't. I also understand that they actually went back and added more footage of him once he came saying he'd remain full-time with BSG because this prospective new show didn't work out, plus I acknowledge that there was only so much the season premiere could show.

Finally, I hear-tell the original script for 'Scattered' saw an opening where Tigh met Adama after getting into a barfight and nearly being shot by his enemies, and the latter stopped the assault and saved Tigh's life through this manner. The way things went down, I could see this actually still having happened and for all I know, 'Valley of Darkness' might show it, though judging by things in general, I sort've doubt it. Either way, I'd have loved to see this for one reason or another -- I guess it was because I hadn't realized upon first viewing that it wouldn't be there and sort've waited for it the whole episode; alas, no delivery. Oh well!

All in all, I'd give this episode a surefire 9.5/10. The only reason it isn't a full ten is that I've seen a couple of others in BSG that I found better overall -- something very, very few programs could ever achieve IMO. Those reigning favorites are 'Hand of God' and 'Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II', but you know what? I know a few people who know a few people, who know a few people and so on... and rumor has it, Season 2 has in store for us every bit of wonder that its predecessor gave forth and even more where that came from. I can't wait and hopefully, I'll be just as vocal about next week's airing as I was about this. I just couldn't contain myself so a full amateur review came crawling forward.

Egeria
July 18th, 2005, 06:42 PM
^ Wow Jeff what a post, crikey must have took ages to type. :D I'd probably post something along the same lines if I had the time or inclination.....though you have IMO summed up just how much I loved this episode. You're post is filled with the same, sheer enthusiasm that I think alot of us BSG fans felt on watching this ep....great post. :)

Jeff O'Connor
July 18th, 2005, 07:42 PM
Thanks, Egeria!

keshou
July 18th, 2005, 08:20 PM
Yep, I agree. Recently I've been worried that it's Lee. I keep thinking back to the Cylon that whispered to the president, "Adama is a Cylon." He never specified which Adama now, did he? :S
Bite your tongue girl and stay away from the writers. :p :D I would hate it if either Lee or Starbuck ended up a Cylon. I could take it for anyone else but not them. (oh sheesh - hope I didn't just jinx it. :S )



That scene with Roslin and Lee's guard was quite well done -- when he came before them and asked if she would pray with him. I was moved by the moment and the way they had him continue said prayer while showing the ongoing fight was brilliance.
Your whole post was great and you hit on all the things I loved about the episode. I forgot to mention the scene with the guard earlier. To me that's what sets this show apart. What other scifi show would include something like this? I just love that they don't back off the important themes - including the odd mixture of religion and politics.

Back to Baltar/Six and the baby. You know - whatever happened to the "Six" that showed up in that episode where everyone could see her and she tried to frame Baltar. Of course she disppeared when Baltar was at his wits end (sitting in a prison cell he finally cried out to god). The Six who dwells in his mind returned and the flesh and blood (well sorta) one disappeared. I mean is it possible there's a real "six" out there who's having Baltar's child?

Of course the better question to me is "Why Baltar"? Why would the Cylons choose him? Or is this all in his head?

Questions to ponder. And I can't wait to find out the answers.

Of course if it involves Lee or Starbuck being a Cylon I'm going to be mad. :p :)

Jeff O'Connor
July 18th, 2005, 08:26 PM
Back to Baltar/Six and the baby. You know - whatever happened to the "Six" that showed up in that episode where everyone could see her and she tried to frame Baltar. Of course she disppeared when Baltar was at his wits end (sitting in a prison cell he finally cried out to god). The Six who dwells in his mind returned and the flesh and blood (well sorta) one disappeared. I mean is it possible there's a real "six" out there who's having Baltar's child?

Of course the better question to me is "Why Baltar"? Why would the Cylons choose him? Or is this all in his head?

Questions to ponder. And I can't wait to find out the answers.

Of course if it involves Lee or Starbuck being a Cylon I'm going to be mad. :p :)

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm definitely still wondering about how that Six just got away, but you know what? This is pretty much the only show I've ever seen that I can truly proclaim, I'll eventually find out. The writers' attention to detail, to veritable perfection, is riveting, amazing. We'll see.

And yes, why Baltar? Or is this all in his head? So many questions. It's... mind-boggling.

If Lee or Starbuck are Cylons, I'll be right there, throwing things at the television with you.

LoneStar1836
July 19th, 2005, 12:35 AM
Question for you, since you listened to the podcast in its entirety. I started to, and then he warned that he was going to be spoiling a couple of upcoming episodes and I clicked it off immediately. Did he give any hint as to how many episodes ahead he was spoiling? I want to listen to it, but I want to wait until after the episodes air and I need an idea of when that is. Any help would be greatly appreciated. :DHmm….I’m not quite sure. I think most of the spoilery stuff RDM was referring to was the backstory he has written for Adama and Tigh. To me, that seemed to be what the majority of the podcast talk consisted off. But then my memory is not so great. :D I tried to listen to it again tonight, got about 10 minutes in, and I think my bleeping speakers just crapped out. :mad:

Anyway if my memory serves me correctly, RDM said that he was considering having the opening episode this season focus on that instead of pick up with the where the events of last season left off. Of course he changed his mind, but he is still open to the idea to eventually have that episode since they did go ahead and film some of it. RDM decided that it would work to use some of what they filmed in the Tigh flashbacks we saw.

There was also a slight mention of spoilers for this Friday as well. Plus he was also spoiling the episode he was commenting on by mentioning some things before they happened. Honestly I don’t remember hearing anything that I would consider future spoilers except for the stuff about Adama and Tigh’s past history which will be used in some future episode yet to be determined.

But my memory is not the best, so listen at your own risk………………:D

I forgot to mention the scene with the guard earlier. To me that's what sets this show apart. What other scifi show would include something like this? I just love that they don't back off the important themes - including the odd mixture of religion and politics.That scene does give you some interesting things to ponder. My main one was how did the guard know about the prophetic nature of Roslin? I kind of though the idea was kept between Elosha, Billy, and Roslin. I guess word got out that she had coerced Starbuck into taking the raider, and her reasons for doing so. :S This idea that she is a prophet will most certainly split people’s feelings about her. Zarak and his followers will have even more ammunition against her, while the more religious people will come to her defense, maybe. Though maybe Zarak is a religious man so who knows what he might actually think, but I’d assume he’d still try to hang her with it, at least as an excuse to get her out of power.

Easter Lily
July 19th, 2005, 12:41 AM
If Lee or Starbuck are Cylons, I'll be right there, throwing things at the television with you.

If that ever happens, you can be sure I'll never watch another episode...
The tv I'll keep... :p

LoneStar1836
July 19th, 2005, 12:55 AM
If that ever happens, you can be sure I'll never watch another episode...
The tv I'll keep... :pWell, I'm not going to make that promise. :P I'd still watch thinking RDM has something up his sleeve.........
Here's to hoping that never happens though.

Hmmm.....throwing the TV would give me an excuse to go buy a new one since the one I have is like 15 years old with a nice green streak that is noticeable at times.........:D Yay! Bring on the Lee Cylon! :P

Scoobing
July 19th, 2005, 03:07 AM
With regards to Baltar/Six's child, could it be the baby that Caprica-Boomer is carrying? Hmm that doesn't seem to make sense as Six said she was the mother and Baltar the father. But Caprica-Boomer could have been implanted via some kind of IVF. The Cylons are masters at getting and manipulating DNA.

When Six said "she will be with us soon enough" and Caprica-Boomer flew off in the raider it got me thinking she was on her way back to the fleet or Kobol.

Although she is supposed to be a renegade cylon. Hmmm...

On a seperate note, Chief Tyrol is a legend, I would follow him into battle any day. Not inhumanly calm and collected under fire and pressure, but he knows what he is doing and does well.

Question is, and this has been raised before, how does he know all this? He is the chief of the hanger pod. Been taking military night classes?

Jonisa
July 19th, 2005, 04:00 AM
There was also a slight mention of spoilers for this Friday as well. Plus he was also spoiling the episode he was commenting on by mentioning some things before they happened. Honestly I don’t remember hearing anything that I would consider future spoilers except for the stuff about Adama and Tigh’s past history which will be used in some future episode yet to be determined.

But my memory is not the best, so listen at your own risk………………:D

Okay, thanks for that. I think I'll wait until after this week's episode and listen to both. It feels like sort of a two-parter, anyway. Vague spoilers for things they might or might not do in some future episode I can deal with. These things tend to change anyway.

Sorry for getting everyone's knickers in a twist with my theory that it's possible Lee is a Cylon. Don't mind me, I'm just paranoid. Now of course, I'm getting ridiculously suspicious about everything he does. Why did he just say "No fire," when the Cylon ship hit the Galactica? Wouldn't it have occurred to him that there might be toasters onboard? Then again, it didn't occur to me, but I'm not military-minded and don't know anything about things like that. See? Paranoid. Someone set me straight here. :p

I know. Lee needs to have a scene where we see whether or not his spine lights up! That'll take care of it! :D

It has got me wondering though, are Cylons new models or copies of other people? I mean, obviously Adama knows what his son looks like so if he was a Cylon (or Tigh or Ellen or anyone he's known for a long time), Cylons would have to be copied from the original at some point. Hmmmm.

I am also wondering if the whole Caprica!Boomer storyline and Helo's acceptance of the reluctant robot is a way of preparing us to accept another character being a Cylon down the road. I'm just very specific about who it might be...in other words, not Lee. Or Starbuck. Anyone else I can deal.


On a seperate note, Chief Tyrol is a legend, I would follow him into battle any day. Not inhumanly calm and collected under fire and pressure, but he knows what he is doing and does well.

Question is, and this has been raised before, how does he know all this? He is the chief of the hanger pod. Been taking military night classes?

For me, I don't think it's so much military classes, which I associate with tactics and weaponry, etc., but more his personality. I'm sure they teach strategies for how to deal with the pressure of combat in military school, but still, some people are cut out to handle it better than others. He reminds me of the Sergeant in 'Band of Brothers', played by Donnie Wahlberg. (Yes, all my knowledge of things military come from film and television. :p) Stuck with an ineffectional CO, he was the one that kept the rest of the soldiers sane during the Battle of the Bulge with his quiet, unassuming concern for every soldier. He was the one the soldiers gave their loyalty to.

Tyrol seems to me to be the same way. He's used to dealing with lots of enlisted men and women and their problems as Chief. He's the one who calmed Boomer down in the midst of her crisis. He kept his cool when he and his crew were under suspicion of sabotage. He just seems to have the kind of personality that diffuses difficult situations and helps people focus on what's important.

Hmmm. I just decided I don't want Tyrol to be a Cylon either. I vote for Ellen. :)

Vorlon-1
July 19th, 2005, 04:23 PM
This episode was great. Like every other episode before this I cannot wait to see the next. Col Ty does not want the command, Thats pretty clear BUT He has shown on 2 occasions now that he can make the life/death decisions without hesitating. In the Miniseries when he was in Damage control and blew the airlocks and In this episode in dealing with the lost fleet, He did what Ty would do not what Adama would do. I think between the pressure of command, the near death state of his savior and probably source of strength and his wife something is gonna snap.

I'm glad to see the new pilots are still flying. Lee out on parole was great...go fight but be back by 11pm or else. So many strings still dangling. Its as if they didn't answer any questions left from last season, they just made me want the answers to the same questions even more. :p

Liebestraume
July 19th, 2005, 07:34 PM
Yay! Bring on the Lee Cylon! :PHush! Don't even suggest such things! :eek:

This summer amidst the BSG drought I finally broke down and started reading fanfic -- before then I had always been quite adament about not letting anything exogenous color my view of the show. I recall an extremely well-written fic based on the premises that the Lee that we know is a cylon. Despite the superb characterization and moving storyline, I couldn't help to feel more than a little depressed at its conclusion. Intellectually it is very interesting to ponder the question "what makes us us" or "are we that different from them," but emotionally something intangible yet precious is lost when whom/what I consider to be the most ideal in humanity turns out to be not human at all.

I guess that's my fundamental problem with any of the major characters being cylon.


I mean is it possible there's a real "six" out there who's having Baltar's child?I don't see how that's possible, unless cylons are going to have their own version of Immaculate Conception. :p

LoneStar1836
July 19th, 2005, 09:09 PM
Well it’s quite possible, imo. Before Caprica got nuked, a real number Six existed, in the “flesh and blood” so to speak. I know she was destroyed in the blast, but Baltar had been umm……contributing his genetic material in all their sexual escapades. So it’s possible that Six got her hands on some of his DNA and sent it off to just wherever they create and hatch all their little baby Cylons.

Or one of those Six’s was impregnated directly by Baltar and they sent a replacement Six which died in the blast. Unless of course Baltar was practicing safe sex cause I doubt Six was on the pill. :P Jeez. I can’t believe I said that out loud……..but it is a possibility maybe…….:S

Liebestraume
July 19th, 2005, 09:26 PM
... Baltar had been umm……contributing his genetic material in all their sexual escapades.
Now about that, who is to say it was not all in his head? :p

Agent_Dark
July 19th, 2005, 09:39 PM
Now about that, who is to say it was not all in his head? :p
Well, its safe to assume that the Six on Caprica in the mini-series was real. Otherwise, I don't think she'd have been able to interact with that Mother and baby ;)

LoneStar1836
July 19th, 2005, 10:02 PM
Well there was a real one bebopping around there on Caprica somewhere. :D Like Agent Dark said about her and the baby, but then you have Six sitting there in Baltar’s home while he’s with another woman, and when she says something the other woman can see her. So there was a real one.

Now whether or not that real one got it on with Baltar could possibly be in question, so you have a point there. It could be quit possible that that was the chip or whatever it is that makes Baltar see her. I think he would have noticed, but then again……… Six doesn’t seem like she’d pass up "that" opportunity and let the chip do all the work. :P

leeadamaisacylon
July 26th, 2005, 08:16 PM
Sad to say that Lee is a Cylon. If you watch the whole first season with him being a Cylon in mind, everything makes a whole lot of sense. Besides, Commander Adama himself said, "Leobon tells half-truths." As far as I'm concerned, the only time he lied was when he said that there was a nuke on one of the ships, and that was just so he could get a chance to talk, to be taken more seriously. He eventually fessed up to that one, anyway. I think that having Lee be a Cylon would not be a mistake. This is probably one of the smartest moves on television. Paranoia? No. Logic. As for throwing things at the TV when they reveal it? Come on, grow up. If you can't handle a wrench in your perfect American Leave-it-to-Beaver storyline, then how can you possibly cope with the *ahem* adult situations that arise? I don't think RDM is afraid to kill anyone off or to make our favorite characters Cylons. That's pretty much the premise of the whole show: They Look Like Us. And don't feel bad for them..."Cylons have more fun."

LoneStar1836
July 26th, 2005, 10:59 PM
Sad to say that Lee is a Cylon. If you watch the whole first season with him being a Cylon in mind, everything makes a whole lot of sense.Out of curiosity, just what examples are you basing this statement on. I can’t go back and watch season one if I don’t know what to look for. ;)


As for throwing things at the TV when they reveal it? Come on, grow up. If you can't handle a wrench in your perfect American Leave-it-to-Beaver storyline, then how can you possibly cope with the *ahem* adult situations that arise?I’m pretty sure people here were just joking. ;) No need to be patronizing and tell people to “grow up”, especially since you were aiming that at some posters that I highly respect for their maturity. If people, including myself, would rather Lee not turn out to be a Cylon, then I think we are entitled to our opinions. Your comments were uncalled for.

Easter Lily
July 27th, 2005, 12:15 AM
Sad to say that Lee is a Cylon. If you watch the whole first season with him being a Cylon in mind, everything makes a whole lot of sense.
As LS has indicated... chapter and verse please...
I don't know about you but I don't know how I can watch the whole first season with "Lee being a cylon in mind" because I have no idea how a cylon thinks... Some are sleepers, some are manipulators, some are trying to get pregnant and some are killing machines... If there is a single "cylon" mentality/personality... I have yet to see it...
The fact that Lee has a background and a very public history obviously doesn't factor into the scheme of things. :rolleyes:


Besides, Commander Adama himself said, "Leobon tells half-truths." As far as I'm concerned, the only time he lied was when he said that there was a nuke on one of the ships, and that was just so he could get a chance to talk, to be taken more seriously. He eventually fessed up to that one, anyway.
And based on that fact you say that Lee is a cylon... :S well, I don't know about anybody else, but to make such an important declaration with such certainty based on the words on a highly unreliable (if not dubious) witness suggests to me a certain degree of desperation which is not warranted.
One could equally accuse Leoben of spreading misinformation to cause doubt and tension in the ranks, which he, of course, was successful in doing.


I think that having Lee be a Cylon would not be a mistake. This is probably one of the smartest moves on television. Paranoia? No. Logic. As for throwing things at the TV when they reveal it? Come on, grow up. If you can't handle a wrench in your perfect American Leave-it-to-Beaver storyline, then how can you possibly cope with the *ahem* adult situations that arise? I don't think RDM is afraid to kill anyone off or to make our favorite characters Cylons. That's pretty much the premise of the whole show: They Look Like Us. And don't feel bad for them..."Cylons have more fun."

Well, I'm certainly glad that "adult situations" in life don't include my finding out that my husband of 9 years is a cylon... :p Esp. considering that he is adopted...

There's no denying that it'll be interesting television but it still needs to be consistent with the story that they are already selling... not just a gimmicky plot device stuck there to get a reaction.

Jonisa
July 27th, 2005, 09:27 AM
Sad to say that Lee is a Cylon. If you watch the whole first season with him being a Cylon in mind, everything makes a whole lot of sense.

I too have entertained the idea that Lee is a Cylon, as evidenced by my musings upthread. I have to admit I don't like the idea much, but we'll see where RM goes with it (or doesn't). However, I have the feeling I could pick any character and watch the first season thinking that particular person is a Cylon and find a fair bit of evidence to support the idea, so that particular method of proof doesn't work for me. :p


I think that having Lee be a Cylon would not be a mistake. This is probably one of the smartest moves on television.

I respectfully disagree with this statement. I think has more than enough interesting issues already as a human, and making him a Cylon would gimmicky plot device (as Easter Lily stated), designed to shock the audience rather than advance the story. Also I don't quite understand how that would work with his backstory, but that's mostly because I'm unclear on how Cylons are created and what their plan is. (If you know, *don't* tell me. I don't like spoilers. :D ).

But my faith in Ron Moore isn't tarnished, and if he wants to make any character, including Lee, a Cylon, I'm sure he'll manage a way to do it believably. I may not like it, but there isn't much I can do about it. We shall see.


As for throwing things at the TV when they reveal it? Come on, grow up. If you can't handle a wrench in your perfect American Leave-it-to-Beaver storyline, then how can you possibly cope with the *ahem* adult situations that arise? I don't think RDM is afraid to kill anyone off or to make our favorite characters Cylons. That's pretty much the premise of the whole show: They Look Like Us. And don't feel bad for them..."Cylons have more fun."

Glad you could join us in this happy little BSG-loving section of Gateworld, leeadamaisacylon. As you can see, we enjoy joking with each other about the show, and if you read some of the comments of the other posters on this thread, you'll notice some intelligent, insightful, adult conversation about many of the developments so far and the themes raised in the show by my fellow posters. :)

Liebestraume
July 27th, 2005, 06:26 PM
...However, I have the feeling I could pick any character and watch the first season thinking that particular person is a Cylon and find a fair bit of evidence to support the idea, ...
Yeah -- come to think of it, Helo must be a cylon! If it weren't for him, Baltar would never have been able to get on Galactica. If Baltar hadn't get on Galactica, he would never have become "hand of god" -- the way he likens himself these days. (BTW, his Christ-like pose was in Hand of God, not 6 Degrees of Separation as I mistakenly suggested in the VoD thread.)

I vote Helo for cylon! :p

leeadamaisacylon
July 28th, 2005, 06:41 PM
The boxing scene--"you have to lose control, you have to go with your instincts." There's something lacking in your character...

He doesn't have that public of a history. Every Cylon shows up just before things start happening. Doral was new--assigned for the big show. Baltar just shows up after being blown up. Ellen Tigh just showed up "last thing I remembered I was in the airport..." Leobon just happened to be onboard one of the carriers, hidden away somewhere. Boomer is the only exception to this. She was there all along. Lee? He was gone for a number of years, comes back right before the big attacks.

What more does Ron Moore have to have there except, "Adama is a Cylon"? Everything else just has to make sense. Being a Cylon would not detract from his character. We see from Boomer that the Cylons are complex. Cylons are people, too!

And as far as my Leave it to Beaver comment, that was just a bit of sarcasm. I spose I should have added a little wink. ;)

Liebestraume
July 28th, 2005, 07:54 PM
The boxing scene--"you have to lose control, you have to go with your instincts." There's something lacking in your character...I'm not sure what your point is here. Agreed that there is something lacking in Lee's character, but so is there in everyone else's. In fact, being flawed is a very human condition. How is that necessarily making Lee cylon?

Or are you arguing for being control = being cylon? If so, then I again beg to differ. Nature and nurture both play a huge part in the makeup of a personality, and the depiction of Adama father-son relationship thus far has given us some insight into Lee's cool-headedness. And let's not forget Lee did lose control -- both time over Kara (but the why is a whole another topic).


He doesn't have that public of a history. Every Cylon shows up just before things start happening. Doral was new--assigned for the big show. Baltar just shows up after being blown up. Ellen Tigh just showed up "last thing I remembered I was in the airport..." Leobon just happened to be onboard one of the carriers, hidden away somewhere. Boomer is the only exception to this. She was there all along.Presumably, by "shows up" you meant showing up on Galactica ('cos otherwise, everyone "shows up just before things start happening" :p). We don't know if Ellen and Baltar are both cylons, so they do not contribute to your theory (because a conjecture cannot be proved by another unproved conjecture). Besides, I'm not sure how Baltar being a cylon would support your argument, since he had had a very public history.

Among the confirmed cylons, only Doral fits you description -- Leobon didn't show up on Galactica until his arrest so he doesn't qualify and, as you said, Boomer had been there all along. Therefore, the argument is inconclusive -- Lee's not having a public history and showing up right before the war proves nothing.


What more does Ron Moore have to have there except, "Adama is a Cylon."How about show us? After all, TV is supposed to be a visual medium. Not everything is supposed to be taken at face value.


Everything else has to make sense. Being a Cylon would not detract from his character. We see from Boomer that the Cylons are complex. Cylons are people, too!I would agree that cylons are complex, sentient beings. Perhaps there is even individuality among their ranks, as evinced in Boomer's case. However, none of those attributes automatically make them "people."

I don't know if being cylon would detract from Lee's character because, as you said, he is a (fictional) character. I do know, however, Lee being a cylon would detract my enjoyment of BSG. Because what attracts me to this show is the indomitable human spirit, the way human ideals endure despite of seemingly insurmountable odds.


And as far as my Leave it to Beaver comment, that was just a bit of sarcasm. I spose I should have added a little wink. ;)A smiley would have been nice; nevertheless, I appreciate this second post explaining the reasoning behind your claim.

leeadamaisacylon
July 28th, 2005, 08:11 PM
What this all boils down to is that each of us takes what we want out of every action, reaction, every line, every display. this applies to both the show and other people's comments. I think you are interpreting what I'm saying wrong (when I say what more does RDM need, I mean if he decides to reveal Lee as a Cylon, he doesn't need any other previous evidence than that, everything else in the series just has to make sense with the claim.)

Personally, I haven't seen or heard anything in the show or on the forum threads to convince me Lee isn't a Cylon.

When Lee turns out to be a toaster, I won't give you an I-told-you-so. ;)

Liebestraume
July 28th, 2005, 08:31 PM
What this all boils down to is that each of us takes what we want out of every action, reaction, every line, every display. this applies to both the show and other people's comments.Not so. Note that no one purported "Lee Adama is not a cylon and here is why." I was just saying the evidence and logic you cited do not support your theory.


I think you are interpreting what I'm saying wrong (when I say what more does RDM need, I mean if he decides to reveal Lee as a Cylon, he doesn't need any other previous evidence than that, everything else in the series just has to make sense with the claim.)On the contrary, if RDM decides to "reveal" Lee as a cylon, he'd better establish ample evidence prior to that; otherwise, it's just bad story-telling. (Incidentally, this is what I meant by "show us.") If you claim he already has laid the groundwork for that reveal, then you need sound logic to explain why.


Personally, I haven't seen or heard anything in the show or on the forum threads to convince me Lee isn't a Cylon.As I said above, no one in this thread is trying to.


When Lee turns out to be a toaster, I won't give you an I-told-you-so. ;)Awwww, I'm crushed. :p

Vorlon-1
July 28th, 2005, 10:27 PM
If Lee was a Cylon he would be the first with a history going back to his birth hence his father. No other known human model cylon has this kind of history established yet. Boomer is probably the closest with a history dating back to flight school with her comrades. It would change evrything. No longer are they models unique unto themselves.

leeadamaisacylon
July 28th, 2005, 11:09 PM
If Lee was a Cylon he would be the first with a history going back to his birth hence his father. No other known human model cylon has this kind of history established yet. Boomer is probably the closest with a history dating back to flight school with her comrades. It would change evrything. No longer are they models unique unto themselves.

Yes, it would change some stuff. However, you are forgetting the obvious Cylon, Ellen Tigh. "If she's not a Cylon, we're all in big trouble." She pumps them for information like a gossip Queen, She killed, not have someone else, the guy in lockup. She appeared mysteriously out of nowhere. She was the #1 suspect of Commander Adama. The whole episode was about her being suspected as a Cylon. What's the proof she's not? Baltar's lie? "No muss, no fuss." Okay, so she's a Cylon with quite the background. She was the XO's wife, for goodness' sakes!

And as for Liebestraume, please, prove my point that people have different interpretations of what others say. Please, do it. Anyway...think of the Sixth Sense. It's all there, it all makes sense, but nobody saw it coming. "Adama is a Cylon" is just like little Haley Joel staring into Bruce Willis' eyes saying, "I see dead people...they don't even know they're dead..." Leobon was staring into Roslin's eyes saying, "I see a Cylon. He doesn't even know he is one."

Easter Lily
July 29th, 2005, 10:13 PM
Why should the burden of proof be on us to show that Lee is not a cylon? :S This is a show about the remnants of the human race surviving a holocaust, so the focus is on the humans not the cylons. The humans are the ones that are featured episode after episode, it is their plight and their woes with which we are engaged. The cylons are skulking around in the dark... manipulating people and prophecy... with an agenda that is largely hidden from the viewer. With that in mind, I would think that it would be a natural thing to assume that most of the main characters, at least, are human unless told otherwise.

At this point, there is no clear, demonstrable evidence that Lee is a cylon. You agreed with me in the "Cylon Suspects" thread that Lee has not been in touch with Kara and Adama for roughly 2 years. The timeline suggests to us that although they haven't been in contact for much of that time, he hasn't exactly been idle. He has been in the military and has even been promoted during that time.

You have come to the table with the assumption that Lee Adama is a cylon, highlighting certain events and situations. When I look at those same events, I see Lee very much as a normal human being with strengths and weaknesses. The problem with your argument is that you put X+Y+Z together and you see a cylon. When I see X+Y+Z, I see a human being with issues. We can't have a proper argument here because fundamentally, we don't really know that much about cylons, we don't know if cylons are A, B, or C... or X, Y, or Z... What is it that makes a cylon , a cylon and not a human? Who is their god? What makes them tick? Do they have the same emotions? Do they come from the lab or from mummies and daddies? Do they have issues?

Personally I would like to find out a lot more about cylons before I make up my mind about whether Lee or anyone else is a cylon.

Liebestraume
July 29th, 2005, 10:26 PM
And as for Liebestraume, please, prove my point that people have different interpretations of what others say. Please, do it.I'm not sure exactly what it is that you want me to do. Prove that people have different interpretations of what others say? :confused: I won't read any sarcasm into your latest post but simply reply in earnest: anyone seeking to "prove" something cannot hide behind "difference in interpretation."

In case we crossed wire, here is the gist of our foregoing discussion: you made a very specific statement, and you cited some very specific examples in order to support that statement. While I neither affirmed nor refuted your contention (that Lee is a cylon), I stated why I thought the reasoning behind your supporting argument -- as stated in your posts here -- was flawed. If you feel any part of that rebuttal is logically unsound, please feel free to specify where and how.

Bottom line: interpretations is a subjective thing, but logic isn't (or shouldn't be).

Easter Lily
July 30th, 2005, 02:03 AM
Yes, it would change some stuff. However, you are forgetting the obvious Cylon, Ellen Tigh. "If she's not a Cylon, we're all in big trouble." She pumps them for information like a gossip Queen, She killed, not have someone else, the guy in lockup. She appeared mysteriously out of nowhere. She was the #1 suspect of Commander Adama. The whole episode was about her being suspected as a Cylon. What's the proof she's not? Baltar's lie? "No muss, no fuss." Okay, so she's a Cylon with quite the background. She was the XO's wife, for goodness' sakes!

I'm a little confused... in one breath you state that Ellen Tigh is an obvious candidate for being a cylon because of XYZ and in another you say that Lee is also a cyclon but for another set of reasons. So which is it? I don't know about you but as far as I can tell, there are no obvious similarities in personality traits between the two.

Now, I agree that Ellen Tigh's situation warrants a high level of suspicion but only because of the mysterious nature of her disappearance or reappearance. I don't think we can argue that Ellen Tigh is a cylon purely on the basis of her personality. We don't have to look very far to know that cylons don't have the monopoly on manipulation, deceit and connivance.

I think most of us are old enough to know that we cannot discount the possibility that Lee could be a cylon altogether. So far, I'm not very convinced by any evidence that has been produced to support the case that he is. No one is saying that he isn't... but what I'm saying is that the evidence isn't all that conclusive.

leeadamaisacylon
July 31st, 2005, 07:56 AM
Have you ever seen the movie K-Pax? (Warning, spoilers for K-Pax) The whole story is about this guy named Prot who comes to Earth and gets sent to a mental institution. The audience then sees all sorts of evidence that he is actually Robert Porter, a crazy man and a killer. There is also some evidence that he is indeed an alien, or maybe an alien in the crazy man's body. Point is, every single one of those claims is fully supported in the story. Now, I believe that he was an alien in the crazy man's body, but some others might believe otherwise. There is enough evidence for both of us to have a very long and pointless arguement, and in the end, we just have to wait for the sequel when it shows Prot on K-Pax.

Buggy542
August 3rd, 2005, 05:38 PM
Have you ever seen the movie K-Pax? (Warning, spoilers for K-Pax) The whole story is about this guy named Prot who comes to Earth and gets sent to a mental institution. The audience then sees all sorts of evidence that he is actually Robert Porter, a crazy man and a killer. There is also some evidence that he is indeed an alien, or maybe an alien in the crazy man's body. Point is, every single one of those claims is fully supported in the story. Now, I believe that he was an alien in the crazy man's body, but some others might believe otherwise. There is enough evidence for both of us to have a very long and pointless arguement, and in the end, we just have to wait for the sequel when it shows Prot on K-Pax.
Wait a minute... Prot/Robert Porter wasn't a killer... :S

Anyway, I'm not sure about Lee being a cylon... It all depends on whether cylons are artificial at "birth"/creation or just people who were taken and replaced by cylons sometime during their lives. Because if it's the latter then background wouldn't matter at all and anyone could be a cylon. If it's the former, I don't think it'd be possible for Lee to be a cylon.

Anyone know which one it is? I don't, but I only started watching BSG recently so I might have missed something... :o

leeadamaisacylon
August 3rd, 2005, 11:29 PM
Wait a minute... Prot/Robert Porter wasn't a killer... :S

Anyway, I'm not sure about Lee being a cylon... It all depends on whether cylons are artificial at "birth"/creation or just people who were taken and replaced by cylons sometime during their lives. Because if it's the latter then background wouldn't matter at all and anyone could be a cylon. If it's the former, I don't think it'd be possible for Lee to be a cylon.

Anyone know which one it is? I don't, but I only started watching BSG recently so I might have missed something... :o

Sorry...I recently re-viewed that movie after about 2 years, and kinda zoned out. My brain filled in the rest for itself. Anyway...Robert Porter was a crazyman with traumatic background.

I think that it could be both originals and clones. Nothing specific has been said, so we don't really know. It would make more sense to have both, so that more people that the cast is close to can be Cylons. Makes it a little more, "anyone could be a Cylon" than "anyone who you haven't known since childhood or whose parents you don't know could be a Cylon"

Buggy542
August 6th, 2005, 08:59 AM
Sorry...I recently re-viewed that movie after about 2 years, and kinda zoned out. My brain filled in the rest for itself. Anyway...Robert Porter was a crazyman with traumatic background.

I think that it could be both originals and clones. Nothing specific has been said, so we don't really know. It would make more sense to have both, so that more people that the cast is close to can be Cylons. Makes it a little more, "anyone could be a Cylon" than "anyone who you haven't known since childhood or whose parents you don't know could be a Cylon"
Yeah, that does sound a little weird... I think it's more probable that they would replace people during their lifetimes, otherwise people over a certain age couldn't be cylons.

If they have been replacing people it makes you wonder what they've been doing with the originals... do they just kill them or do they store them away somewhere?

leeadamaisacylon
August 6th, 2005, 06:52 PM
Yeah, that does sound a little weird... I think it's more probable that they would replace people during their lifetimes, otherwise people over a certain age couldn't be cylons.

If they have been replacing people it makes you wonder what they've been doing with the originals... do they just kill them or do they store them away somewhere?

Maybe they kill some, maybe they leave the originals out there with some of them...or perhaps the process kills them. Who knows?

BruTak
September 1st, 2005, 08:22 AM
May I just say, the closing moments, the camera pushing into the wreckage of the crashed Cylon boarding-craft, then the red eyes of the Cylon centurions... Creee-pee...

jasy_ha_kuarahy
November 30th, 2005, 07:47 AM
Getting away from all the cylon accusations (:p ), I have one quick question:

Does anyone know what music was playing while Baltar and Six were in that big amphitheatre with the baby? Whatever it was, I'm suddenly overcome with an obsessive desire to find it.

MASON
November 30th, 2005, 09:34 AM
Getting away from all the cylon accusations (:p ), I have one quick question:

Does anyone know what music was playing while Baltar and Six were in that big amphitheatre with the baby? Whatever it was, I'm suddenly overcome with an obsessive desire to find it.
I think you're thinking of Passacaglia (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/wma-pop-up/-/B0009Q0F5U001024/002-6175449-1239223) by Bear McCreary.

jasy_ha_kuarahy
November 30th, 2005, 07:56 PM
thank you!:D

MASON
November 30th, 2005, 08:56 PM
thank you!:D
anytime.

That's my favourite BSG song too, for a month after Pegasus aired, I had set it as my morning alarm clock sound. :rolleyes:

Matt G
January 10th, 2006, 04:20 PM
OK...

1. Ellen might be a Cylon or she might just be a Sherry Palmer.

2. Interesting background we have on Tigh.

Overall, solid ep. Good to see BSG back!

JamesM
January 10th, 2006, 05:29 PM
Yup, great to see it back, just a shame it took so long to get here in the uk.


I had to rewatch season 1 so I could remember what's happened :D

LoneStar1836
January 10th, 2006, 09:52 PM
1. Ellen might be a Cylon or she might just be a Sherry Palmer.Nice comparison. Maybe she will eventually have the same fate as Sherry as well. ;)

BruTak
January 12th, 2006, 07:58 AM
OK...

1. Ellen might be a Cylon or she might just be a Sherry Palmer.

2. Interesting background we have on Tigh.

Overall, solid ep. Good to see BSG back!
Heya Matt! How's tricks?

I agree Ellen Tigh looks like she could be Number Six' mother.:cameron:

Matt G
January 12th, 2006, 03:25 PM
Tricks are OK Bru!

Another thing, I thought that much Cylonness when the Boomers got toasted was going to overload Galactica-Boomer's mind permanently. What the heck's the point of setting up an agent that will(assuming she can convince Galactica she's not all-evil) turn against them?

BruTak
January 13th, 2006, 07:34 AM
I've been lucky enough to see up to ep 2.05 "The Farm" at my local Sci-fi group. All I'll say is keep watching...;)

scifigirl11
October 7th, 2006, 04:19 PM
i loved this episode!

MB.Eddie
November 7th, 2006, 08:29 AM
Good ep. Tigh taking command was quite interesting, and the flashbacks between him and Adama were good too. Jumping before giving the fleet the coordinates was pretty cool. Nice thinking with the firewall too. Just got it all done in time. That new transport ship the Cylons had was cool too.

Catsitter
June 23rd, 2007, 03:29 PM
I've finally got the DVD set of season 2, as it is in the Virgin Megastore sale at only 18GBP, so I've just watched this episode and all the deleted scenes. Great episode, and I do think it is a shame that they had to delete so many of the Tigh / Adama flashbacks; it makes a lot more sense when you've seen those deleted scenes! I think I'll be rewatching this episode quite a few times...

Ulkesh47
November 14th, 2010, 09:28 PM
This was a solid start to the season, and rounded the bases competently among the several scattered plot threads with a measured pace.

The action thrust of the story worked quite well, with computer technology playing a role insofar unique in the series; of course, the crash of that Heavy Raider is an effective cliffhanger as well. The battle itself was a visual beauty, with very judicious use of interceptor fire, a supremely sensible battle tactic that was first seen on SF TV in Babylon 5.

The flashbacks in principle are a good idea, but they are way too piecemeal in the episode to add much. They should be fleshed out more, but I realize the tough situation editing-wise given the more immediate plot material that would be lost if more flashback depth was saved from the cutting-room floor.

7/10

TBA
November 15th, 2010, 03:42 AM
Yeah, there are a lot more flashbacks in the deleted scenes of the dvd. Without those deleted scenes the flashbacks don't really add much, though.

Pharaoh Atem
November 18th, 2010, 08:26 PM
oops saul lost something :P

great ep to start the second season

Professor_S
June 4th, 2011, 02:32 PM
A great episode and a great start to the season.

I too have seen the deleted scenes and they really help to piece a lot more together. It's such a shame what has to go for the sake of running time... :S Can you imagine what BSG would've been like if they didn't have to cut anything that they didn't want to? There's some *brilliant* stuff in the deleted material.

The very first time I saw this ep (and the few that come after) I was *SO* pissed at Tigh; now when I watch, I'm a lot more sympathetic to his state confusion and disarray. "Those are my orders." - Hogan delivered the line well. We see it way back in the Mini too; Tigh is comfortable in second position, but when forced to take charge, he struggles. Adama has a great line to Tigh in a couple eps about the burden of command.

Brilliant end to the ep! Just when there seems to be relatively happy ending, you realize that Galactica is still frakked. It's so eerie seeing those red lights!

chaddergate
June 9th, 2011, 05:20 AM
A great episode and a great start to the season.

I too have seen the deleted scenes and they really help to piece a lot more together. It's such a shame what has to go for the sake of running time... :S Can you imagine what BSG would've been like if they didn't have to cut anything that they didn't want to? There's some *brilliant* stuff in the deleted material.

The very first time I saw this ep (and the few that come after) I was *SO* pissed at Tigh; now when I watch, I'm a lot more sympathetic to his state confusion and disarray. "Those are my orders." - Hogan delivered the line well. We see it way back in the Mini too; Tigh is comfortable in second position, but when forced to take charge, he struggles. Adama has a great line to Tigh in a couple eps about the burden of command.

Brilliant end to the ep! Just when there seems to be relatively happy ending, you realize that Galactica is still frakked. It's so eerie seeing those red lights!

I sort of understand, but I realized how much stress that Tigh must've been under, and knowing his character...it was fitting in right in with it. And yes the ending was cool!
And, the episode starts possibly the best arc of episodes of the series.

mrscopterdoc
June 19th, 2014, 11:44 AM
I loved the flashbacks....wish Tigh had killed Boomer.

garhkal
June 19th, 2014, 03:47 PM
I also am not sure how all the Cylon's are linked. CapricaBoomer mentioned that CapricaSix's consciousness was being downloaded and soon everyone would know where they are. So it goes back to some sort of central processing system? How can that link be in place and the Cylons don't appear to be linked at all in other ways.

Perhaps they initially looked at them being some sort of hive mind, but instead went with the 'downloaded consiousness' angle.



Oh, I'm also bummed about the new opening. At least it's not mutilated like SG-1 and Atlantis but I still miss the old U.S. theme. I liked the woodwinds and the beat of the drums. :(

The going to a new intro doesn't irk me off as much. Heck that they did a new one for each new season was good imo.


Like, I am also a littel confused by Helo's sudden change of heart when it comes to "Sharon" -- would the fact that she is carrying his child automatically make her trustworthy?


IMO it was more a touch of old school chivelry. She was with child, HIS, so he had to be seen as protective. Now whether that makes him stupid, or just a guy is up in the air.


Besides that, there are (at least) two new questions that intrigue:
(1) Was cylon virus successful in penetrating all 4 of Gaeta's firewalls?


I always wanted to know, if the Cylons are a sort of android like robot, who exactly was doing the programming? And since we saw the inside of a cylon raider, how was it transmitting a virus in the first place?


Yeah, we've seen them do it before against Helo (I mean come on. Two Centurians fail to take out one injured guy who only has a pistol?) They weren't there to kill him, just make it hard for him. I think the same thing might be happening to Baltar and Tyrol and Co on Kobol


I think the difference between the Helo issue and the angle with Baltar was that Helo was known to be associated with Boomber/sharon, and the aspect of her pregnancy. So perhaps it was her who told the centurions to "go easy on him". As to Baltar, i think that was more cause they didn't want to potentially hit and kill boomber.