Some technical questions

[Viv]

Hi!

I posted before for a fanfic beta-reading. While I'm waiting, I'd like to ask a few questions about the SGC regs.

1) Would you find it difficult to believe that, in an alternate universe, a doctor in medicine, originally in the Air Force as a psychiatrist, who has studied the Goa'uld extensively and found some extra knowledge out about them (I stress, this is AU), would join SG-1 from the beginning? The character is a Major, I'm guessing she'd be O'Neill's second in command, but her combat experience would be less extensive than Carter's. Any thoughts about this? I'm worried because I read about line and non-line officers, and now I'm confused.

2) What's the SGC's take on romantic relationships between civilian collaborators and officers? I'm wondering about this because according to the regs I've read, it's not permitted. Yet there's the AU Dr Carter/Col. O'Neill couple, which clearly developed while they were both working at the SGC. Do you think Hammond turned a blind eye, or that there's some kind of tolerance?

3) Do you have any idea how people arrived from other planets/dimensions/whatever (such as Teal'c and Jonas) are able to support themselves? Do they get an allowance, are they paid? Are they allowed out of the SGC? What criteria do you think they'd need to meet to not be "prisoners" inside of the SGC? (this especially applies to AU characters who should normally be dead - would they be allowed out at all, and risk being seen by people who knew them?)

Please let me know what you think of these. They are major plot points in my story, I'd rather not get them wrong.

[Mr Prophet]

Given Hammond's reluctance to put Jackson back on the front line, he'd probably be reluctant to put up a non-com officer as well. If Jackson is still on the team, it seems unlikely they'd have another essentially non-combatant member, although even an AF psychiatrist would have more combat training than Daniel. They might be more likely to include a psych or medic on a specialist mission or if SG-1 in this AU was a larger team with perhaps a couple of extra combat types; maybe NCOs.

The USAF prohibits relationships between AF personnel and civilian consultants and contractors "if it erodes good order and discipline". If Dr Carter wasn't part of his field unit, her relationship with Jack was okay. Presumably, the Dr Carter in Point of View was not on SG-1.

Jonas and Teal'c were supported by the SGC. Jonas wasn't aloud off-base unescorted, and even Teal'c only gets out of the complex completely on his own recognizance in Season 8 - there's a whole 'Teal'c gets an apartment' episode. Presumably they'll have him on senior sergeant pay, since that's his effective role (senior sergeant pay incidentally is better than junior officer pay, to the best of my knowledge, since AF senior sergeants act like the warrant officers of other service branches).

[Viv]

Thank you for your answers. They mostly confirm what I was already thinking.

Given Hammond's reluctance to put Jackson back on the front line, he'd probably be reluctant to put up a non-com officer as well.

Thought so. Trouble is, in the Buffyverse, the character seems to have the command of a covert operation, probably at the level of a Colonel, as she is replaced by a Colonel at her death. I have no idea how a scientist gets that kind of responsbility. Obviously, Buffy creators didn't bother much with explaining rank and technical details, so it's all quite fuzzy. But at any rate, I'd rather my AU Walsh and the canon Walsh both have some kind of qualification that would make them competent in combat situations. I just don't know how to pull it off.

Good suggestion though about making SG-1 a larger team, that could work too, if I don't find anything else.

Jonas and Teal'c were supported by the SGC. Jonas wasn't aloud off-base unescorted, and even Teal'c only gets out of the complex completely on his own recognizance in Season 8 - there's a whole 'Teal'c gets an apartment' episode.

Oh, I didn't know about that, very interesting. However, I was wondering where Teal'c and Jonas got civilian clothes. Would these be hand-me-downs from other people in the personnel, or would they have an allowance of some kind, and the possibility to do a little shopping outside? It seems particularly hard for people who are originally from 20th century Earth (from an AU) to be completely confined in the SGC, though I understand the security motivations.

And finally - my knowledge of physics is really bad. Does anyone have a take on what would happen to someone from the quantum mirror who happens to be dead in this dimension? We know that Kawalsky and Daniel didn't suffer any ill-effects over a few days (a week or so for Kawalsky?), but would they have survived indefintely? What exactly causes the breakdown?

Yes, I know, I'm full of questions. I just want to get the plot as credible as possible.

[Skydiver]

1) Would you find it difficult to believe that, in an alternate universe, a doctor in medicine, originally in the Air Force as a psychiatrist, who has studied the Goa'uld extensively and found some extra knowledge out about them (I stress, this is AU), would join SG-1 from the beginning? The character is a Major, I'm guessing she'd be O'Neill's second in command, but her combat experience would be less extensive than Carter's. Any thoughts about this? I'm worried because I read about line and non-line officers, and now I'm confused.


>>>
the sgc seems to be a bit out of the ordinary. now if you had this civilian on the team and had 2 other military folks in addition to jack (ie make danny &/or Teal'c a military officer) then your sam type character would be one civilian among 3 other military folks

or what if you make the team 5 folks, jack, military second, sam, danny, teal'c

2) What's the SGC's take on romantic relationships between civilian collaborators and officers? I'm wondering about this because according to the regs I've read, it's not permitted. Yet there's the AU Dr Carter/Col. O'Neill couple, which clearly developed while they were both working at the SGC. Do you think Hammond turned a blind eye, or that there's some kind of tolerance?

>>>>

there is a loophole. if the romantic involvement was a 'preexisting condition'...ie they were married before they were both assigned, then it would be ok. hammy or whomever the CO is would have to approve it befrore it happened. In other words, Jack is at the sgc, your sam type person transfers in and even through she's a civilian, hammond knows that they're dating.


3) Do you have any idea how people arrived from other planets/dimensions/whatever (such as Teal'c and Jonas) are able to support themselves? Do they get an allowance, are they paid? Are they allowed out of the SGC? What criteria do you think they'd need to meet to not be "prisoners" inside of the SGC? (this especially applies to AU characters who should normally be dead - would they be allowed out at all, and risk being seen by people who knew them?)

>>>>>
i would guess they're paid a stipend each month. if the air force can give cassandra a birth cert and all that, they can do the same for teal'c or jonas.

as to AU folks, if they'd been assigned to colorado springs before, something that would increase the likelyhood of someone knowing them, then i would imagine they could be assigned elsewhere.
and i would imagine that they'd be encouraged to change thier apperace soome how. dye their hair or the such

[Mr Prophet]

Thought so. Trouble is, in the Buffyverse, the character seems to have the command of a covert operation, probably at the level of a Colonel, as she is replaced by a Colonel at her death. I have no idea how a scientist gets that kind of responsbility. Obviously, Buffy creators didn't bother much with explaining rank and technical details, so it's all quite fuzzy. But at any rate, I'd rather my AU Walsh and the canon Walsh both have some kind of qualification that would make them competent in combat situations. I just don't know how to pull it off.

Good suggestion though about making SG-1 a larger team, that could work too, if I don't find anything else.

Hmm. I don't think Maggie Walsh was in the military at all, although she presumably had a sort of 'effective rank' to determine who saluted her (I knew a guy who worked on missile guidance tech; he was a computer geek but on military turf they treated him as a lieutenant in a limited degree).

The Initiative was a Government operation with full military backing, but not under the jurisdiction of the Army, Air Force or any other military service branch. Its soldiers were referred to as 'Agent', so I'd guess that the Demon Research Initiative (est. c.1940!) operated like a covert intelligence op. The SGC works more like a straight military operation.

Oh, I didn't know about that, very interesting. However, I was wondering where Teal'c and Jonas got civilian clothes. Would these be hand-me-downs from other people in the personnel, or would they have an allowance of some kind, and the possibility to do a little shopping outside? It seems particularly hard for people who are originally from 20th century Earth (from an AU) to be completely confined in the SGC, though I understand the security motivations.

Well, Teal'c at least was allowed out - offworld on missions - after a few weeks; Jonas after a few months. It must have been pretty claustrophobic. I guess the SGC supplies the clothes; either that or they let them shop online. I can't believe anyone else buys Teal'c's civvies.

And finally - my knowledge of physics is really bad. Does anyone have a take on what would happen to someone from the quantum mirror who happens to be dead in this dimension? We know that Kawalsky and Daniel didn't suffer any ill-effects over a few days (a week or so for Kawalsky?), but would they have survived indefintely? What exactly causes the breakdown?

Yes, I know, I'm full of questions. I just want to get the plot as credible as possible.

Alternate Carter says that she expected TEC failure to kick in after years, not hours, if there was no duplicate. Presumably a dead double would either have no effect or a limited effect; either way, the crosser would have some years to live; as many as you want really.

[Viv]

Thank you for your responses. It's very helpful. Skydiver, I know about the loophole - I however doubt that was how it happened for AU Sam/Jack. I think that Mr Prophet's answer about the tolerance as long as it doesn't interfere with disciplin seems more likely in that case.

Hmm. I don't think Maggie Walsh was in the military at all,

There isn't any definite answer to the question. I personally doubt that she was only an academic, as she apparently briefed the guys on tactics and was overseeing trainings and such. In the story, I'm assuming that she is/was part of the military for the sake of my plot (the alternate Maggie, obviously, never was in the Initiative). Still, unless I can come up with a great explanation to make her "line" rather than "non-line", I'll have to add a fifth wheel to alternate-SG-1 (no Teal'c in this one).

The Initiative was a Government operation with full military backing, but not under the jurisdiction of the Army, Air Force or any other military service branch. Its soldiers were referred to as 'Agent', so I'd guess that the Demon Research Initiative (est. c.1940!) operated like a covert intelligence op. The SGC works more like a straight military operation.

I know, though I'm very much clueless about how covert intel ops work, who organises/heads them, etc. And I didn't know that about the Initiative. I stopped watching Angel around S2, good thing you mentioned it. Thanks!

I guess the SGC supplies the clothes; either that or they let them shop online. I can't believe anyone else buys Teal'c's civvies.

Actually the first time he went out (I do believe it was in "Cold Lazarus") he seemed to have borrowed clothes from someone, IIRC. But his manner of dressing is... er... interesting enough for us to suppose that he chose them himself.
Besides, he must have some kind of allowance to pay for all those candles.

Alternate Carter says that she expected TEC failure to kick in after years, not hours, if there was no duplicate. Presumably a dead double would either have no effect or a limited effect; either way, the crosser would have some years to live; as many as you want really.

Yes, that's what I was thinking too. Ooh, a harder question: would a duplicate item of clothing also undergo some kind of disintegration/disturbance? Or does TEC only apply to living things?

[Mr Prophet]

There isn't any definite answer to the question. I personally doubt that she was only an academic, as she apparently briefed the guys on tactics and was overseeing trainings and such. In the story, I'm assuming that she is/was part of the military for the sake of my plot (the alternate Maggie, obviously, never was in the Initiative). Still, unless I can come up with a great explanation to make her "line" rather than "non-line", I'll have to add a fifth wheel to alternate-SG-1 (no Teal'c in this one).

She's certainly not a field officer; possibly a PsycOps analyst. Mostly she's the nearest they have to an expert on HSTs, which is where her tactical knowledge comes from. But if she was actually a military officer, surely they'd call her 'Colonel' or whatever - as Sam says in CotG, it is appropriate to address an officer by rank, not salutation. The whole thing is complicated by the fact that they were a mixed bag of civvies, agents and military types, so hierarchy was iffy at best. If you want her to hold a military rank that's probably fine, though; all crossover is essentially AU, after all.

I know, though I'm very much clueless about how covert intel ops work, who organises/heads them, etc. And I didn't know that about the Initiative. I stopped watching Angel around S2, good thing you mentioned it. Thanks!

The Initiative show up briefly to send Angel to rescue a downed submarine in WWII. The modern Initiative was very much Maggie's baby though, from the mission to create the hybrid to her physical and psychological conditioning of the 'nancy ninja boys'.

Yes, that's what I was thinking too. Ooh, a harder question: would a duplicate item of clothing also undergo some kind of disintegration/disturbance? Or does TEC only apply to living things?

Define duplicate? It would have to be exactly the same piece of clothing. Presumably it would all break down eventually however.

[uknesvuinng]

Originally Posted by Viv
Yes, that's what I was thinking too. Ooh, a harder question: would a duplicate item of clothing also undergo some kind of disintegration/disturbance? Or does TEC only apply to living things?

TEC is mostly a plot device as far as I can tell. Apparently, duplicates are determined by 2 people being the same person, as opposed to being the same matter. If it were the same matter, everyone would fail because your atoms and molecules don't disappear when you die, they're just decomposed. Besides, your not made of the same particles all the time. Your constantly taking in new ones via food and breathing and losing them to shed skin cells and hair and other losses. So the TEC is pretty much at your discretion, but I would suggest not adding to much to it as inconsistencies will probably appear quickly.

[Viv]

I know, BtVS is fuzzy, they avoided using any military ranks at all in the Initiative, except for Colonel MacNamara, and even he doesn't address the "agents" by their rank. They don't address each other by rank either, though it's suggested that Riley is higher in rank than Forrest, for example, and you hear the occasional "sir" and "ma'am" that indicate some form of respect (but then, Daniel gets called "sir" from time to time, too). I suspect the BtVS writers were trying to cover up their lack of research on the subject by remaining very vague.

So, let's see if I got this right: if Walsh was on SG-1 as some kind of technical advisor with no combat experience, even if she was the highest ranking officer (say, if O'Neill was taken out in combat), command would go to the highest ranking "field" officer (Carter, for example), even if they are of a lower rank. I'm assuming that the fact that she spent three to four years on the team and acquired combat experience (even Daniel has acquired combat experience after all) doesn't change anything to her type of responsibility in the team. Correct?

At any rate, thanks for sharing your thoughts, I really appreciate the answers, I've worked out something that's more realistic and still works with my intended plot (now I just have to go and revise 70 pages of fic )

[Mr Prophet]

I figure that Colonel MacNamara was sent in because the military wanted to establish control of what was seen as a kind of maverick project. Maggie probably hadn't been entirely fulsome with her reports on 314.

Daniel is called Sir because he has one of those notional ranks. I usually assume that he's treated as a lieutenant for prestige and etiquette. But as a civilian consultant, he could never take command of the unit. If all the field officers were incapacitated, the ranking NCO would take charge. Combat is not the same thing as command experience; just ask Major Clanger whether Carter should be a short colonel.

[Viv]

Combat is not the same thing as command experience; just ask Major Clanger whether Carter should be a short colonel.

Oops, I think you just lost me, here - I'm a newbie, I haven't been able to read all debates on the board yet. ^^;

I'd just like to make sure I get this right though: about address. The senior officer, line or non-line, will always be addressed at the very least as ma'am or sir by the junior, right? (I'm trying to get my head around Walsh receiving orders from someone who calls her ma'am, it's rather amusing)

I'm also asking because Janet tends to get called Doctor, which seems to go against the "it is appropriate to address an officer by rank, not salutation" line (if I'm not mistaken, Janet is a Major, she was Sam's senior until S3). Ditto for Dr. MacKenzie, who's apparently a full Colonel. Is there some kind of exception for medical staff?

[Mr Prophet]

Well, there's a big difference between an MD and a PhD. Near as I can make out, a medical doctor serving in a medical capacity is always doctor. For starters, although they do hold an Air Force rank, they would presumably not be field officers. In terms of chain of command - outside of medical matters - a medic wouldn't 'count' as long as there were other officers around.

More importantly though, what a doctor is - first and foremost - is a doctor. Sam's PhD is important, but what she is is an officer with a doctorate; Janet is a doctor who works for the Air Force.

Major Clanger is my own beta reader. She's ex-Army and basically feels that Carter has in no way shown the qualities needed to become a Lt. Colonel.

And yes, senior officers should be addressed by rank and surname or just as 'Sir' or 'Ma'am' (I believe this is Mam, not Marm, but I might be thinking about the Queen there). In some cases, particularly with the USMC, everyone just refers to each other by callsign. I'm pretty sure that a civilian with an ersatz rank would just be 'sir' or 'ma'am', never 'lieutenant' or what have you.

Maggie Walsh's case was confused by the fact that they basically all refered to her by her academic status as Professor.

[Viv]

Okay, that seems right, thanks!

However... I've still been thinking AU- Walsh's role in AU-SG-1 over. I realised that I'd written her consistenly as the kind of person who takes charge and needs to be in control. If I rewrite her as just acting as a non-combat consultant on the alternate SG-1, I may lose something essential to the character I've been developing, not to mention having to rework the plot and interactions completely.

I came up with a possible resume (this AU Maggie joined the AF about 20 years ago) that would give her some field experience. Would it work if she'd been in the PSYOPs? It would still make sense for her to originally be a psychiatrist/psychologist, who joined the AF at some point in her life. From what I gather, PSYOP officers are pretty much line - certainly no less than Carter used to be, at any rate (Carter must have been in a research/engineering section before CotG, no?).

Ideally, I'd have seen her in PSYOPs during the 80ies, then have her turn back to psychiatry for a while (say since 1990), taking a non-line role as a base psychiatrist, and perhaps be recalled into the PSYOPS around the time of the first Abydos mission. Of course, I really have no idea if it's possible, in a military career, for commissioned officers to change their field like this, and if it is, what the implications would be, such as being retrograded, for example.

I have no idea how nitpicky Stargate fans are when it comes to accuracy in fanfiction, but I don't want the plot to seem too contrived (I'd hate to see "projected Mary Sue" written all over AU-Maggie because her career/experience wouldn't realistically enable her to join a team like SG-1).

[Mr Prophet]

Well, if anyone sees AU Maggie Walsh as your Mary-Sue, I think you'd have to have bigger problems!

It wouldn't be unbelievable for Maggie to have both PsyOps and field experience; certainly no worse than Sam being an astrophysicist with combat flight experience and infantry training.

[Viv]

Well, if anyone sees AU Maggie Walsh as your Mary-Sue, I think you'd have to have bigger problems!

Oh, I haven't told you about the nanites that make her look 20 years younger, her eyes that change colour with her mood and the fact that she's a human/goa'uld hybrid with all the knowledge of the Goa'ulds but the Goodness of humankind. All SGC characters will bow before her genius and magnificence, all males drooling over her, etc etc.
Yeah, right, I'll consider writing that next time I want to do a parody.

It wouldn't be unbelievable for Maggie to have both PsyOps and field experience; certainly no worse than Sam being an astrophysicist with combat flight experience and infantry training.

That's what I was thinking, Stargate characters seem to be really polyvalent, and SG-1 has two wizzes (22 languages? pheew!). I think that it also works as long as you're not being unrealistic about the character's age (I boggled when I saw an RPG with several Lieutenant Colonels who were all between 28 and 32 - I think it's just possible, but very rare).