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GateWorld
July 11th, 2005, 02:24 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s9/902.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/graphics/902.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888">SG-1 SEASON NINE</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s9/902.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none"><B>AVALON, PART 2</B></A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 902</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
An Ancient communications device renders Daniel and Vala unconscious, sending their minds to another galaxy -- where they inhabit the bodies of two people persecuted by the followers of an evil religion.

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s9/902.shtml">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B>
SPOILERS! PHOTOS! AND MORE!</FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Excali5033
July 22nd, 2005, 05:00 PM
Wow...graphic. Shock aside, this felt like an old school SG-1 ep. And that's a very good thing.

Bobthespirit
July 22nd, 2005, 05:01 PM
Okay, what the heck? Those tests look like they were designed for any reasonably intelligent thirteen year old to be able to solve them. It's good to know that the puzzle that Merlin used to guard his massive treasure trove is the same one that Lisa Simpson had trouble solving that made her doubt her intelligence. The lameness of the puzzles really hurts the episode because it breaks suspension of disbelief.

And why are these hardened military guys letting some random woman who's using them to get treasure push them around? It all seems contrived to have Claudia Black be in the episode, and they didn't do a good job contriving it.

I still like Mitchell, I still like Landry, and I like the doctor woman. But several parts of this episode are really shoddily written. I thought the producers said in that interview that they were going to start taking themselves seriously again like they did near the beginning -- apparently not. If they're going back to Stargate's 'roots' then they should re-adopt the keen sense of practicality and plausibility the characters had at the beginning.

And the Orai are basically the gu'ald, but more powerful and with a different biology. Can't we have villains with *different* motives? Also, making them more scary just by making them more powerful is a bad plot device. Like the boring replicators, the only way to beat them is to trump them with some new bit of technology (Which they inevitably find a way around in the next confrontation).

I also don't get why Salis dying kills Vala. I thought it was a poor plot contrivance in the Matrix when dying in the Matrix killed you in real life -- they only did it so there would be any danger whatsoever. And it's a poor plot contrivance now when Stargate copies it.

I hope Avalon isn't a sign of things to come. This is way too cheeky, and the content of the show is being overwhelmed by 'extravagant' personalities. *sigh* At least Atlantis is still good. The wraithe are scary because of what they are, they don't automatically trump all the technology the protagonists have available. The cast is an ensemble instead of just a bunch of people trying to out-personality each other. And you can beat the wraithe by out-smarting them -- you don't just have to find new technology to trump theirs.

Avalon is *not* a return to roots.

CKO
July 22nd, 2005, 05:05 PM
bloody hell TO BE CONTINUED! well done... i need the third part already. agree was very graphic at parts.. hell i was sniffy when vala was thought to be dead.. well in a way she was. wonderful actin' on the part of MS, CB and Ben B. the depth and emtions that are portrayed... WOW!

Twich
July 22nd, 2005, 05:10 PM
Well as a new Gater, I surely enjoyed it. It had a lot of action and fun too. AND I thought the storylines were good as well.

MarshAngel
July 22nd, 2005, 05:13 PM
I can't wait for the next episode. It's very intriguing. I agree that Vala's presence was too obviously contrived. It seems they wanted her in the episode and the only way to find a logical reason for her to be there was to physically bind her to Daniel, another contrivance.

Other than a few minor nuisances it was enjoyable.

I really don't understand why the Ancients make you jump through hoops everytime they have something they've hidden. What is even the point of them all?

Dana_Jeanne
July 22nd, 2005, 05:13 PM
And another opinion at the opposite end of the spectrum chimes in: I LOVED IT. I've never been any good at puzzles, so I didn't get the obviousness of the two in the rooms, nor do I watch the Simpsons. I'm not sure WHAT Daniel figured out though as I couldn't understand HALF of what he said. Cut back on the exposition so Michael can SLOW DOWN.

Mitchell is still 'eh' for me, depending on how the season progresses I'll either end up liking him or not caring about him. He's a bit too much Mr Perfect Hero at the moment for me. Jury is still out.

Hello, Mrs. Shanks... have you been taking speed-talking lessons from your husband? <G> Carolyn Lam is a very different doctor from Janet. I miss Janet, but I like Carolyn already.

Still liking the General, still find the jaffa stuff dead boring. Wish we could Un-Jaffa Teal'c.

I liked the story. One of my friends watching it with me thought it was tired tripe, but then she didn't like Indiana Jones, either.

The bit with Vala burning and Daniel yelling, and then when he went and held her dead, burnt body was totally awesome. Just fantastic, excellent acting job there by both of them.

What else? Totally shallow moment here: those mideivel clothes on Daniel, whooooo boy! Woof!

I'm really loving this season SO FAR and especially Daniel and Vala. Can we keep her? Please, please!!!!

Dana Jeanne

tsaxlady
July 22nd, 2005, 05:22 PM
Okay first reaction after first viewing. I wish MS would slow down so you can understand what he is saying. I thought it was a little slow in places I was having a hard time staying focused on what was going on in the story.

The best thing about this episode would have to be Joel's soundtrack. He talked in Burbank about using vocal samples for this first time this season on SG1 and they were great and made act 5 so effective.

Look forward to how this segment of the story ends next week.

Oceda Kendara
July 22nd, 2005, 05:24 PM
Well as a new Gater, I surely enjoyed it. It had a lot of action and fun too. AND I thought the storylines were good as well.

Liked it so far, but it does seem to be a bit over the top going from the Ancients we cannot interfer to now bow before me. Too much like the Goa'uld except different clothing with a much more over the top attitude.

I like the new characters and it will be interesting to see them grow in the coming season.

Hatusu
July 22nd, 2005, 05:25 PM
Excellent! A big scare and lots of surprises. I've been avoiding spoilers. Even so, I've heard about the Ori and I was not disappointed.

Oh, yes. The music was medieval in style and creepy/tense. I loved it. Good job, Joel. Good job, all. :D

Elwe Singollo
July 22nd, 2005, 05:28 PM
I liked the episode, i didn't dislike it like Bobthespirit did though. I didn't exactly understand what 'out personality each other' meant.

But anywho, the ending was pretty dramatic and yes very graphic, even as graphic as those Buffy-Spike sex scenes...

The puzzles at the beginning i guess were 'so easy it was hard', but i didn't really mind it, the dramatic acting of the scene was what i was paying attention to.

I felt a little 'Last season of Enterprise' when the 'to be continued...' text came on at the end...

AGateFan
July 22nd, 2005, 06:04 PM
Definitly going to have to watch it again before I review it. Daniel is talking way to fast and I think he is rubbing off on everone else. I thought the Landry\Lamb scene was uncomfortable, cant put my finger on why but it just was off somehow.... Dr Lee was funny though. And Tea'lc is nice and angry, stupid politics, Raknor actually had a few lines. I thought the sword fight was well done. I did get the visceral feeling with Mitchell, the damit I aint gonna give in feeling, thought that was well done... Vala had thew out no enduendos that I noticed..... Well except for the "suggested that she commit a sex act on herself one" (paraphased) that was actually pretty funny and appropiate though. So initial reaction is I liked it as the second half of Avalone I but not sure it could have stood as a one off ep.

Mio
July 22nd, 2005, 06:07 PM
Lee is such a cool character.

Also, Its good to see that Mitchell was much less annoying than he was in in his introduction episode.

To. Be. Continued. The three worst words in Stargate. <sigh>

I wonder if that guys staff glowing was an Ancient healing device, or creepy Ascended powers?


And the Orai are basically the gu'ald, but more powerful and with a different biology.

The difference is that the Orii are, for all intents and purposes, actually gods.


Avalon is *not* a return to roots.

Are you kidding? This was more like early SG1 than the last two seasons have been.



Oh, by the way. They will always be the Ancients in my book. Alterians. Phft.

JanusAncient
July 22nd, 2005, 06:09 PM
I liked it too, as a two-parter, the Doci at the end, and that staff I love that device, how it completely healed Vala, finding out that the Ancients were called the Altereans, if that is spelled correctly, but I think that the episode "Origin" will be a stand alone episode.

jyh
July 22nd, 2005, 06:11 PM
1. Daniel DOES talk awful fast. It's cute and it proves that MS is great at learning & reading his lines, but it does make it hard to understand him & follow the story.

2. The Avalon story line is pretty far "out there." It started out as being about Merlin, Avalon, & Arthurian times, complete with suits of armor & sword fights. Then it morphed into the whole communication-device storyline. Then Daniel & Vala disappeared into some other world/culture/existence. In this episode, they discussed Ancients, Alterans, Orii, & humans. Personally, I had a hard time following all of it, not to mention figuring out why any of it was remotely important. (Other than just learning more about the origin of the Gate). I think the whole thing, as someone else mentioned, was a contrived storyline designed simply to include Vala. (Since Carter isn't there, they have to incorporate another female, so why not Vala?) Which leads me to ....

3. the character of Vala. This week's episode wasn't quite as bad, but last week (Avalon Part I) was very annoying. She is just way over-the-top. Personally, I'm over it.... I'll be glad when her story arc is over.

I'm open to storylines that involve plots other than chasing the Goa'uld around the galaxy, but this Avalon story is just too far "out there."

SierraGulf1
July 22nd, 2005, 06:17 PM
It moved very quick for sure, from Merlin to Knights to Devices to Orii, but it did feel a bit like an older Stargate episode, only because we met a new culture. Only thing is, we didn't learn much about them.

I missed Part 1, but I found this somewhat enjoyable, moreso than some Season 8 episodes, and I was somewhat fond of season 8. I shall see what's in store. Perhaps they shoved too much into Avalon, and things will slow down from Origin on and we'll have an enjoyable season 9.

ToasterOnFire
July 22nd, 2005, 06:19 PM
A quick question before a more detailed analysis later...

Cam's puzzle appeared to be the reflections of Arabic numerals. Is this even remotely historically accurate? I was under the impression that Arabic numerals didn't get over to Europe until the 1200s AD and the King Arthur legend and Merlin was supposedly between 400 and 600 AD? Any history buffs out there to clarify this?

Dani347
July 22nd, 2005, 06:19 PM
I'm not sure WHAT Daniel figured out though as I couldn't understand HALF of what he said. Cut back on the exposition so Michael can SLOW DOWN.


There's only one great truth, that the universe is infinite. Therefore, the pot that said that must have been true and the other one must have been false. So, they needed to open just the gold pot. That solved it.

airic82
July 22nd, 2005, 06:34 PM
my only wish is that SciFi would have just had an SG-1 night. Show all of the first three episodes together. The problem I have is that each episode totally doesn't stand alone and they seemed too chopped up. Like the first half of this episode belonged to the last half of last weeks. Then the second half seemed to be a totally different episode to me.

Dana_Jeanne
July 22nd, 2005, 06:50 PM
1. Daniel DOES talk awful fast. It's cute and it proves that MS is great at learning & reading his lines, but it does make it hard to understand him & follow the story.

I'm getting rather preturbed at the fact that the writers are giving him so much to say and not enough time to get it all in without speed-speaking. Yes, Daniel has always spoken fast when he gets excited, but it's never been as fast as it has since Season 7 started, and these first two episodes are simply ridiculous as far as trying to understand him goes.

Everyone else seems to be talking faster, too.

Watched the episode again, like it even more. The scenes with Vala being burned and then dying in the infirmary were wonderfully edited together. And the acting by Claudia Black and Michael Shanks was fantastic.

Dana Jeanne

alz0rz
July 22nd, 2005, 06:53 PM
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Definitly going to have to watch it again before I review it. Daniel is talking way to fast and I think he is rubbing off on everone else. I thought the Landry\Lamb scene was uncomfortable, cant put my finger on why but it just was off somehow.... Dr Lee was funny though. And Tea'lc is nice and angry, stupid politics, Raknor actually had a few lines. I thought the sword fight was well done. I did get the visceral feeling with Mitchell, the damit I aint gonna give in feeling, thought that was well done... Vala had thew out no enduendos that I noticed..... Well except for the "suggested that she commit a sex act on herself one" (paraphased) that was actually pretty funny and appropiate though. So initial reaction is I liked it as the second half of Avalone I but not sure it could have stood as a one off ep.

I believe Lamb is Landry's daughter - I did get that initial 'wtf?' vibe first but my spoiler reading techniques shot this fact at me :P

MasySyma
July 22nd, 2005, 07:03 PM
What a great episode!

Admittedly, I was a little disappointed when Vala stole the coin and when the treasure appears. I was thinking please tell me the episode isn't over yet. However, when introducing the Ori, I found myself more attracted to the episode, and the scene where Vala basically burns at the stake is incredible. I was furious when I saw the be continued sign.

I agree airic82. SciFi should have let the episodes be aired together. It would have made both shows feel more solid and the first half of Avalon Part 2 might have seemed a little less predictable.

This felt like classic SG-1. Go Season 9.

the fifth man
July 22nd, 2005, 07:03 PM
Well, I can smile a little wider now. After seeing part 2, I am definitely not disappointed. The story did pick up the pace some, and we learned quite a bit. That vivid scene with Vala going up was shocking to say the least. To me, this looks like the old sg-1 a little more. Cannot wait for next week to see the Ori. If this keeps up, hopefully my wish for many more seasons of stargate sg-1 will be granted.

kharn the betrayer
July 22nd, 2005, 07:10 PM
This was a great episode IMO

It had me feeling I was watching S1-5 again.

Also I apllaud the fact they had the guts to show something as graphic as Vala being burned alive.

Also was it me or was Vala toned down between this episode and episode 1?.

she came off more likable in this episode IMO.

TechnoBoY
July 22nd, 2005, 07:14 PM
Okay this episode was much better then part 1! Good ep! Now lets hope the next ep is as good! Yup, much much better.

the fifth man
July 22nd, 2005, 07:16 PM
Yeah, she was definitely more likeable in this one. Just have to comment, can't wait to see more of Vala and Daniel's interactions. They just drive each other crazy, and it is awesome to see on screen. Shanks and Black play the parts very well.

GateMan2000
July 22nd, 2005, 07:22 PM
I think this episode rocked! I was kind of ticked that I have to wait until next week's to see what happens!

Arative
July 22nd, 2005, 07:24 PM
I thought that this episode added a lot depth to Vala's character. When the prior or doci, what ever it was healed Vala, I saw a vulnerable person that uses the sexual inuendo, the greed, basically the facade that she's only out for herself, to hide the fact, that she is just a normal, scared person at times. It humanized her a lot more in my eyes. When she said that she felt tingly all over and that it wasn't from Daniel, just made me like the her character more than I already did because I saw that she was using her behavior as a defense mechanism. I mean if everyone expects her to look out for herself, then no one will expect anything of her, its an easy way to get through life. I'd love them keep Vala around for more than 5 episodes and really want to see how she'd play off of Carter, since Carter is a rather strong woman.

TheCorpulent1
July 22nd, 2005, 07:25 PM
Yeah, I really liked this episode. The first part was pretty slow, but this one was action-packed and had a lot of interesting parts to it. The two parts that I didn't really like too much were the climax of the sword fight and Vala hiding the coin in her cleavage. The slow-mo holographic trail of the former and the obviousness of the latter were both kind of cheesy, but outside of that the fight itself was nice and Vala was much improved. I really liked when Mitchell ringed back to the Prometheus to report that they did something wrong and Daniel immediately asks Vala what she took. :D Speaking of whom, Vala herself wasn't nearly as annoying in this episode. Hopefully being burned at the stake will result in her accepting the gravity of the situation and being a bit less glib. Similarly, Mitchell finally shed a bit of the fanboy aspect and began to realize the gravity of gating himself when Vala appeared to die. Plus, he distanced himself a bit from Jack by taking so active a role in Dr. Lee's explanation. And Teal'c finally got a bit of development after stoically standing aside all of last episode. His outburst to Rak'nor, as well as their conversations in general, spoke volumes about the general direction that the Free Jaffa story is going in.

So, all in all, I'll just echo most of you guys and say that this was the closest to the purely fun, off-world Stargate adventuring of the earlier seasons of SG-1 than anything from the last few seasons has been, and it was a great return to form. While I had to watch "Avalon I" another 2 times before I really got past my initial disappointments with it and began to look forward to "Avalon II," this time around I'm already chomping at the bit to see what happens next week.

Best line of the episode: "Room full of gold and jewels and Dr. Daniel Jackson finds the ONE book." :D

Jeff O'Connor
July 22nd, 2005, 07:29 PM
Wow, excellent episode. I like it more than last week's, which I definitely dug quite a bit. For those of us who found Vala unbearable last week, yes, she was toned down quite a bit after the initial 'so remember kids, she's back and she's a beeyitch' moments of seven days past. Personally, I liked her then, too, but I'll admit I liked her more when... subtle. Though that line in regard to the wife... yeah, that was priceless.

The final act was definitely the best, I'd say. Wow... just, wow. I don't think SG-1's ever done something quite like that before. We've seen our heroes tied with flames coming at them but they've always been stopped... the second I saw her dress being burnt, I blinked several times, my eyes widened, my ears perked up and by the time I realized it was happening, it was actually happening... it'd happened.

Did I know Claudia would be in six episodes? Yes. Could I resist a moment's utter belief in her being killed? Yeah... no. It was so well-done that for that brief candle, I... mourned her. Wow. Way to go, folks.

Mitchell and the knight was pretty nifty, I really hope the S9 DVDs feature the full-length version, though. I thought the size was pretty good but I'd prefer to have seen the entire endeavor, especially since I hear-tell Ben really threw himself into that, put his all in it and I saw it, too. I want to see the whole bloody duel! But I totally understand their cutting it for storyline progression.

Carolyn Lam, eh? Not bad, not bad. I've been seeing her in small scenes on 'The 4400' over the past few weeks and I felt she's a bit spunkier here... man, though, did I miss the line clearly stating she's Landry's daughter? My grandmother was watching and she went: "Isn't she a little young to have had a relationship with him in the past?" And I just shook my head with a sigh. Maybe we both missed it, I reckon my television's sound quality ain't up to its competitors...

The Jaffa thing's not so bad if you ask me, I just think they're showing too little for us to care so much. The way Joel played his music so dramatically when 'Gerak won the vote' was great, too bad I just couldn't get into it because we've had a little snippet of explaining him and now this big, dreadful, roaring trumpet, if you will, of agony over this man, this terror of a tyrant, having accomplished something so dire... no, didn't feel it, I don't feel him yet. Of course, knowing who he's played by, methinks mayhaps next week, I can scribble this out and say 'woot' a few times. Till then, though... eh.

Speaking of Joel... holy smokes. Talk about turning point. I've never particularly minded SG-1's music but it's never been by all-time favorite, either. This year, thus far... wow. If they keep this up -- Atlantis, too -- I'll be swept away. The quality of the tracks being played throughout the episodes is simply amazing. Powerful, intense, riveting... on par with Galactica's, IMO -- which I think most can agree is excellent, right? Too bad about the credits... I'm signing petitions, though. But talk about a way to remind me there's music despite the opening's absence.

Everything about this episode was well-done, I'd say. Did feel like a classic episode, I agree. The middle had its iffy points, though I'm not quite sure why at present and I'm heading to bed, as I'd said in the much smaller Atlantis post I made. (Why I dedicated most've my remaining focus on this rather than splitting them even, I'm not sure...)

I'd give it an 8.8/10 -- not perfect, why not? Because it wasn't non-stop. No, I don't mean non-stop action -- I watch these shows for the story and characters above all else -- I just... there's something about Acts 2 and 3 I didn't really dig quite as much. And yes, it felt like the first part belonged with the first part of the opener... not much they could do about that, but I still subtracted a couple of decimals because I'm a hard-nosed SOB sometimes. Excellent, excellent episode, though, don't get me wrong. 8.8/10 is actually incredible by the standards I arrogantly proclaim as lofty, hehe.

Also, consider I gave last week's an 8.4/10, too. I didn't write a big pseudo-review but mentally, that was its Jeff-o-meter score. *grins*

I might well have more to say about this episode tomorrow after work, but off to sleep I surrender.

NightGloom
July 22nd, 2005, 07:35 PM
I liked this episode too... and I didn't hate Vala... how is this happening?

Of course, I must be nit picky and put a few things I didn't like about the ep. out there... but let's cover the good things first, shall we?

Good
-"Look, I didn't hear any screaming or squishing sound"
- Vala was much easier to stand in this ep, I actually felt bad when she was burning
- Which brings me too..."I suggested procreation with herself"
- And... awesome acting on the part of MS and CB!
- There's a new doc in town... and I think she's going to be a pretty good character. MUCH different from Janet, but that's a good thing. ((Although I still miss Janet :( ))
- YAY! For going all out on the very graphic burning scene. That sounds wrong, but I'm just saying that it's good they're starting to take those kind of chances and show a little more gore and human emotion.
- An outfit of Vala's I actually like, although I suppose it wasn't her outfit exactly, but the Renaissance style stuff was better than that dominatrix thing and I didn't feel uncomfortable when my parents walked into the room
- Liked the Daniel/ Vala interaction (weird, huh?)


A few not so good things...

- Did anyone else get the Rocky vibe when CM was almost out of the fight with the knight, which prompts a flashback to the crash and his recovery? I found that a bit cheesy
- Once again, got the Indiana Jones vibe
- The puzzles were slightly too easy
- Daniel still has that beard

Osiris-RA
July 22nd, 2005, 07:37 PM
Well, I was going to do something humourous ... but I decided not to. I just realized that the Stargate I know and love is, sadly, gone. It's limping forward in a state of otherworldly suspension, like looking into that white light and waiting ... just waiting...

Well, maybe a few notes on my part. :D

Vala: annoying ...but funny. But she needs a new outfit - seriously. I'm afraid being in the one she's in will cut off her circulation.
Daniel: PLEASE SHAVE THE BEARD!!!! Oh - and he was funny too.
Mitchy: ...
Caroline: ...hey, look, Lexa .... a little brash for a doctor, I thought. Certainly doesn't seem as freindly as Doc Frais. :(
Plot: The fire scene was conveiniant. Really, whats with the intricate fire designs? if I want to see cool stuff with fire, I'll get some booze and a sparkler. :rolleyes: :p Poor Vala though, that looked painful. Cool coming back to life scene but the Orii? Ain't buyin, so don't sell it! He looked like he got a flour bag dumped on him. The Danny Vala interaction was cute, but just to clarify, there's a difference between a cliffhanger and an unsure ending. In a cliffhanger, you abruptly stop the action just when your on the edge of your seat. A CLIFFHANGER is a CUT OFF SENTENCE. "StarGate Season 9 su -" and you cut it off. An UNSURE ENDING is "Well, you know, Lemme think about it..." A sentence that is being pondered upon, not the same slightly pissed reaction of a cliffhanger-ee. Remember that. :D

It's nice, the "new team, new enemy, new story line", but I don't really want a new enemy. I don't want the Goa'uld to be gone, nor the Replicators or the others guys. In a perfect world, yeah, they'd be gone, but it's not a perfect world. TV's supposed to show a somewhat familiar world, but from the veiw of likable protagonists, with pasts, futures, hopes, dreams, wishes. Mix them with a familiar world and a little danger, intrigue, fact and fiction, You've got the perfect world that you'd wanna get away to. You need to feel like you'd want to jump right in the fray with them and help save the day. You build baddies that you feel comfy around and want to see again and again and cream again and again. These types of shows make you want to feel like you want to live to die another day. It's a great feeling for me, personally. I know that might sound kinda stupid and cheesy but thats just moi. :D I know we don't want our characters to be Peter Pan's, never dying, always looking young and vibrant. They're real - fictional - people. They should live and change. They should grow older and wiser with age. But when something happens back in the dreaded real world, :p that impedes that fictional real world story from pushing on, like certain beloved characters dropping out or not being there very often, and new strangers introduced, it becomes a hollow, frightening world. These new people say you can trust them on your brand new shrinkwrapped journey - but do you want to? "Kiss you? I hardly know you!" And to make matters worse, its in the 9th season which for most shows is the end. The end being over or canceled. So, Stargate, look, it's cool what you're doing, Vala is kinda funny - annoying funny, Daniel's cool but he's not the danny i'm familiar with and I don't know, I'm picky. Jack's gone and Jack made it feel like home. Sam's there but in RL she's busy. Good for her. T - I don't know what T's up to really. This whole Jaffa thing is way too political for me and I liked it better when I didn't have to see RL politics intermingle. Sure, it's a nice analogy for RL stuff, but don't make it so dang obvious, eh? Anyway, Stargate was great while it was what it was, but now, it's not that anymore. I'll keep watching to see what'll happen but Stargate ended for me 2 seasons ago.

I beg of thee, benevolent Powers That Be, don't let Sg-1 get canceled!!!

omg, I just wrote all that for a TV show????? :eek: I must really be in need of a life. :p

Anyhoo, Ave atque Vale, SG-1.

TheCorpulent1
July 22nd, 2005, 07:43 PM
How is Daniel not the Daniel we all know and love? He seems the same to me: obsessed with knowledge, the resident problem-solver, humanistic, glib in his off time, bursting with enthusiasm when he finds something new... What's missing?

BruceDickinson
July 22nd, 2005, 07:45 PM
I liked it a lot. I may have to eat crow soon, because just in this one episode, Vala grew on me a lot. I liked her much better here than any of the past eps we've seen her in.

I'm going to keep on saying it.... Even though I hate the show changed this year and would love nothing more than to see RDA back, I really like how the show has started out so far this season. SG1 just has a sense of quality about it I think, even in the bad moments, it's still good TV IMO. The article on Gateworld's homepage is dead on, the new camera angles, the new sets, everything about the show just feels exciting.

This season has started off with a distinct feel and a ton of new energy and I love it. "Energy" is being overused I guess, but it's the best word to descibe it I think.

Lovin it so far....

Osiris-RA
July 22nd, 2005, 07:48 PM
How is Daniel not the Daniel we all know and love? He seems the same to me: obsessed with knowledge, the resident problem-solver, humanistic, glib in his off time, bursting with enthusiasm when he finds something new... What's missing?
He's not a geek anymore. :(

Dani347
July 22nd, 2005, 07:54 PM
He seems very geeky to me. He's surrounded by gold and jewels, and Vala pouring them down her chest, and he doesn't notice because his head is buried in a book. If that's not geeky, I don't know what is.

keppiezbt
July 22nd, 2005, 08:00 PM
mixed feelings. the stuff with the ori was cool but they moved so quickly. and what did we really learn about the ancients? they came from another galaxy a long time ago? already knew that.

good script, good acting, good after they go to whatever galaxy but the merlin stuff was weak.

MarshAngel
July 22nd, 2005, 08:01 PM
I did notice there were no children in the village. What's up with that? All those couples and no kids? Indoctrination starts late?

BruceDickinson
July 22nd, 2005, 08:05 PM
Well, I was going to do something humourous ... but I decided not to. I just realized that the Stargate I know and love is, sadly, gone. It's limping forward in a state of otherworldly suspension, like looking into that white light and waiting ... just waiting...

It's nice, the "new team, new enemy, new story line", but I don't really want a new enemy. I don't want the Goa'uld to be gone, nor the Replicators or the others guys. In a perfect world, yeah, they'd be gone, but it's not a perfect world. TV's supposed to show a somewhat familiar world, but from the veiw of likable protagonists, with pasts, futures, hopes, dreams, wishes. Mix them with a familiar world and a little danger, intrigue, fact and fiction, You've got the perfect world that you'd wanna get away to. You need to feel like you'd want to jump right in the fray with them and help save the day. You build baddies that you feel comfy around and want to see again and again and cream again and again. These types of shows make you want to feel like you want to live to die another day. It's a great feeling for me, personally. I know that might sound kinda stupid and cheesy but thats just moi. :D I know we don't want our characters to be Peter Pan's, never dying, always looking young and vibrant. They're real - fictional - people. They should live and change. They should grow older and wiser with age. But when something happens back in the dreaded real world, :p that impedes that fictional real world story from pushing on, like certain beloved characters dropping out or not being there very often, and new strangers introduced, it becomes a hollow, frightening world. These new people say you can trust them on your brand new shrinkwrapped journey - but do you want to? "Kiss you? I hardly know you!" And to make matters worse, its in the 9th season which for most shows is the end. The end being over or canceled. So, Stargate, look, it's cool what you're doing, Vala is kinda funny - annoying funny, Daniel's cool but he's not the danny i'm familiar with and I don't know, I'm picky. Jack's gone and Jack made it feel like home. Sam's there but in RL she's busy. Good for her. T - I don't know what T's up to really. This whole Jaffa thing is way too political for me and I liked it better when I didn't have to see RL politics intermingle. Sure, it's a nice analogy for RL stuff, but don't make it so dang obvious, eh? Anyway, Stargate was great while it was what it was, but now, it's not that anymore. I'll keep watching to see what'll happen but Stargate ended for me 2 seasons ago.

I beg of thee, benevolent Powers That Be, don't let Sg-1 get canceled!!!

omg, I just wrote all that for a TV show????? :eek: I must really be in need of a life. :p

Anyhoo, Ave atque Vale, SG-1.

Longest post I've ever read :D (not *seen* mind you, read. usually when they are that long I just skip to the next one :p, especially when there are no paragraph breaks as is the case here :eek: ).

Osiris, I tend to agree with just about all of your posts I read, good stuff most times... But... I have to disagree with you here, as far as our opinions go I guess, cause that's all this is from both of us.

But for me, the whole, "Oh look, the Replicators aren't dead, they.... replicated!!!!" thing was getting VERY banal. The human form replicators was OK, but the end of that story was end of their story, as it felt it should be. I'm over them, they were cool, but I'm glad they're gone.

As to the Gou'uld. I hardly think they're done. Look at how things stand now, the Jaffa are on a road that seems destined for civil war on several fronts. I see many factions springing up out of this. Some Jaffa will no doubt go back to following their gods when the free Jaffa show their human nature and struggle amongst themselves for power, as nations here do so well. Perhaps late this season, or even next year, we will see the return of an overlord, Baal anyone?

I'm loving the show right now, the Orii seem to fit into the mythos perfectly, and I can't wait to see how they develop.

You said it yourself Osiris, don't cancel the show! Well, if the season 12 finale involves another final showdown with the Replicators, then I think we all now this baby will need put to sleep. But with the Orii, the inevitable return of Goa'ulds, and the possibilities of a power struggle among "free" Jaffa (how many dictators will we see rise out of this? The possibility of a Stalin or Hitler type Jaffa leader who entralls a huge nation of Jaffa to follow him, to the death if need be is interesting... echoes of "The Warrior" perhaps?) I think the future of SG1 is bright indeed. Maybe in season 18 we can bring back some replicators for you.... ;)

BruceDickinson
July 22nd, 2005, 08:07 PM
mixed feelings. the stuff with the ori was cool but they moved so quickly. and what did we really learn about the ancients? they came from another galaxy a long time ago? already knew that.

good script, good acting, good after they go to whatever galaxy but the merlin stuff was weak.

I agree with the moving quickly statement, a little goes a long way with a new enemy. No problem yet, but the sense of mystery about the Orii is a great feeling for a change, I hope they don't spill the beans too soon!

Lt. Elliot
July 22nd, 2005, 08:07 PM
I really have to say, my high expectations for Avalon Part 2 were exceeded. I feel like the puzzles were solved quickly, but they needed to be or else there would be screaming and squishing noises. Mitchell did very well describing the Ancient symbols to Daniel (chair thing, random boxes). The sword match was amazing, and the effect of the hologram's sword hitting Mitchell was cool.
Vala stealing the coin and it having to be there was good. And Mitchell's last minute "put the sword back" was smart. I was in shock when all the treasure appeared. Mostly, I'm impressed that he figured out the Ancients were from another galaxy. Smart!
Daniel and Vala as two other people was good. Vala poking herself - cute. The fire thing - dark and creepy. The show took a weird turn showing her go up in flames. Kinda wrong.
Oh! Dr. Lam! Didn't even realize Janet or Brightman were not there when she was. She did a good job.
The Prior, interesting. Very unsettling when he said "Thank the Ori."
Overall, a 9/10. Introducting the Ori and finishing last week's stories but leaving it open for Origin to finish the job.

mjj1993
July 22nd, 2005, 08:18 PM
I liked this episode but it didn't move as quickly as part 1 did for me. I'll have to watch it a second time before I could give any kind of review but I will echo what some others have said: Daniel talks too fast! He desperately needs to slow down I get lost listening to him.

I don't like the Dr.--guess I'm the oddball out here but she just came across as quite abrasive to me. (And I still mourn Janet Fraiser.)

I like Mitchell, but then again I love Ben Browder, and I think Vala is okay. I like her and wish she were staying for more than the five eps. I would love to see her interact with Carter on a regular basis.

mtee1958
July 22nd, 2005, 08:19 PM
I was going to lurk and not post -- but this was a great ep and I had to say it. I've watched it twice already - the burning scene was incredible. I can't imagine Daniel treating Vala the same after that -- Something like that would remain in your mind for a long time. Claudia was wonderful -- I've never thought Vala was annoying and she was definately toned down. Nothing over the top or cheesy -- her reactions after being brought back-- the vulnerability and haunted look -- wow - amazing. I had seen the ep photos, so I "knew" the what happened -but a still picture didn't capture the "OMG" moment -- the screams and then the whoosh! Geez, I'm getting goosebumps again.

Don't mean to gush, but this was a great ep. I do agree that MS is talking extremely fast -- I'm catching most of it -- but you really have to listen. Mitchell was great -- ok - the flashback was ify -- but BB can handle it. I like that he can "get" what Daniel is alluding to -- he catches on.

I'm excited to see Lou Gosset -- that will be a great treat.

MediaSavant
July 22nd, 2005, 08:24 PM
I generally liked the episode a lot.

The pacing does seem faster and that is a good thing. In the past, I sometimes found SG-1 a little to "slow-feeling" for my taste. This new pacing is good because TV is generally getting faster.

The only place it slows down for me and gets really dull is when they switch to the Jaffa storyline. Fortunately, they are keeping those scenes relatively short at this time.

I really like Mitchell and it was smart that he was getting beat up pretty good for a while in the swordfight before making a comeback. It made it more interesting.

chocdoc
July 22nd, 2005, 08:28 PM
This is the first night that I clearly liked SGA much better than SG1, and I have to admit I never thought I would feel this way.

I found the SG1 episode to be actually really boring. Daniel talks way to fast to keep me interested. I'm focusing on how fast he is talking and how he is saying his lines, ---and this is distracting. MS and CB, however, did a good job at the end. But most important for me, it did NOT feel like the older SG1 seasons at all. There was no team feel here really. Teal'c is off alone again most of the time, and once again has little to do in this episode. It is difficult to feel what Mitchell is really feeling yet, because we just don't know him well enough. Near the end of the show I thought, gee Mitchell isn't really in the show much tonight, oh yeah, that's right, he had that sword fight. Lexa Doig did fine, but she doesn't show much compassion for her patients yet like Dr. Frasier (but of course I'll give it awhile--but right from the beginning you knew how much Dr. Frasier cared for the characters---wasn't Broca Divide her first appearance?). Can't tell what Landry cares about either. There was very little in the way of showing reactions of the characters except the Daniel/Vala scenes at the end. When you don't see much in the way of reactions, it just doesn't feel right for me.

The problem for me as others have mentioned is that the writers seem to be trying to sometimes force the writing around Vala, and it's not really pulling me in much. I think she was fine, though, but it's getting old already.

In SGA I felt excitement, suspense, good humor, and caring between the characters (like the good ole days of SG!1---Brad Wright is spot on). SG1 did not have this same feel at all for me. Obviously some characters are new, but I think caring can be conveyed from the get go.

And the build up to the bad guys is so slow. And I haven't learned much about them so far. Just not real exciting storytelling yet for me. But perhaps down the road.

Osiris-RA
July 22nd, 2005, 08:34 PM
But for me, the whole, "Oh look, the Replicators aren't dead, they.... replicated!!!!" thing was getting VERY banal. The human form replicators was OK, but the end of that story was end of their story, as it felt it should be. I'm over them, they were cool, but I'm glad they're gone.

True, it became pretty repetitive, but I don't really think that the writers should feel it simple enough as to say, "Well, they're all gone now, next baddie!" They could leave us little something something to get the feeling that there's still a faint trace of familiar badness in the world. :p So far, Replicarter deleted poor Fifth, she got blown up, then the awesome multi-gate activating thing creamed the rest of them. That was quite astonishing but even after all that's said and done, there's bound to be one spunky little reppie that crawls out from the wreackage. :S :D


As to the Gou'uld. I hardly think they're done. Look at how things stand now, the Jaffa are on a road that seems destined for civil war on several fronts. I see many factions springing up out of this. Some Jaffa will no doubt go back to following their gods when the free Jaffa show their human nature and struggle amongst themselves for power, as nations here do so well. Perhaps late this season, or even next year, we will see the return of an overlord, Baal anyone?

I didn't think of that. Of course it's possible, and it again strikes that live to die another day thing yet again. Personally, I'm not a fan of sci fi politics, but I can see how it gets into the mix. I just hope that TPTB are careful with it and try not to alienate veiwers with laying it on too thivk.

i remember the part where Teal'c was retorting that his friends from earth had helped to free their people and been greeted with nothing but disrespect. It's those types of lines that sort of hit that offkey note with me ... If the Jaffa become the proverbial fork in the road with alliances, that could push certain story angles forward. That would be interesting, but still, not enough for me to accept the "new" SG- team.


Maybe in season 18 we can bring back some replicators for you....

:eek: 18 eh? Lol, well someone's optimistic. :p

emihaz5
July 22nd, 2005, 08:39 PM
Okay the bad first and then the good

The bad:
These episodes would have been a lot better without the whole Knight thing. The hologram has been done and it had no point at all. It was meaningless and led to nothing. I will backtrack if there is more to this mythology in future episodes. It would have been better if Vala came with the book and the communication device and we got strait to the point. Secondly why waste RDA screen time with flash backs. I would have rather seen how he felt when he was promoted or a conversation with Hammond telling him that he has been promoted. Sorry had to dive a little into Avalon 1. I know next week when he has a special appearance it's going to just make me sad he's gone again :( . Throw me a bone will ya guys?! At least let me know how he feels not being a part of Stargate anymore. PLEASE!!!! :D I really miss the dynamics between Jack and Daniel, the little brother big brother thing. It was so flat when CM, Vala and DJ reported back to Landry and CM seemed to have no authority at all. It was lame.
The Good:
It picked up in the second half of the show and it started to feel like old episodes of SG1. really great acting, drama and a little suspense. I liked it and I am going to keep watching because I have been hooked on the line with the Ori. They act like Gods in a way but they don't claim to be gods they just want you to believe what they believe or they will destroy you interesting because it does parallel with Christianity and the dark ages. It could lead to interesting future episodes. Like last week I really liked Teal'c he was great. I liked his explanation why he was off with DJ and CM instead of Dakara. I bought it.

BruceDickinson
July 22nd, 2005, 08:44 PM
The bad:
These episodes would have been a lot better without the whole Knight thing. The hologram has been done and it had no point at all. It was meaningless and led to nothing.


I agree to a point here, It did seem like a bit of a rehash of Thor's Chariot... But I liked it still.

Shipperahoy
July 22nd, 2005, 08:56 PM
I liked it much better than I did last weeks episode. As I suspected, once the exposition and flashbacks (mostly) were out of the way we could get to the action. These 3 parters kind of get on my nerves a bit though. All those darn "to be continueds".

I like the toned down Vala quite a bit. It gave a chance to get more of a feel for the actual interaction between her and Daniel without all that sexual innuendo.

The swordfight was a bit cheesy for my taste, especially the flashback scene during. Someone mentioned a Rocky vibe and I think that that pretty much sums it up. We're getting more of a feel for the actual "team" in this one and Teal'c got to say more than a couple "Indeed"s which I found pleasantly surprising. It's still too soon to really get a feel for the new doc but she seems competent if a little brusque. I just hope that they don't play up the relationship between her and Landry too much. I don't think the show really needs some unecessary subplot about the base doctor having daddy issues.

The scene with Vala being burned was unexpectedly wrenching and Claudia did an excellent job portraying the shock of the aftermath and Daniel cradling her burnt body was actually quite touching. I'm looking forward to the next show and seeing the Ori.

TheCorpulent1
July 22nd, 2005, 09:00 PM
Anybody else almost fall over when Teal'c shouted "RAK'NOR!" I haven't seen Teal'c emote that much in years. :eek: :D

The "To Be Continued..." was a buzz-kill for me too. I was getting really excited when the Prior showed up, but then I realized I had to wait a whole damn week! :(

FoolishPleasure
July 22nd, 2005, 09:03 PM
Overall I liked this episode, but it felt rather disjointed - as if I watched two separate episodes. The first half was all Mitchell and the "great cave adventure" but the second half was all Daniel/Vala at the Renaissance Fair. Both parts were good, but felt odd to me.

I'm liking Landry more and more. He fits now, and the wee crossover with SGA with a nice touch. Lexa didn't do much, but I liked her and think she will do a good job. As for Mitchell, I'm already thinking of him as part of the team. Browder was a good choice. All we need is Carter. :D

Vala - I said last week that TPTB would tone her down. Last week was her big splash, and it had to be good. I like Vala and hope she comes back beyond her 5-6 episodes - not as a reg, but pop in now and then. Claudia is a hoot!

Can I say I'm tired of the Jaffa? ;)

majorsal
July 22nd, 2005, 09:04 PM
i watched this ep (without ff through it), and....

i'm in a rather melancholy mood now. i feel like the sg1 that i know and love is gone.

for me, a show is more than it's plots and storylines. it's *always* been about the characters. while i like these new ppl, i found myself missing *my* sg1. there really wasn't anything wrong with tonight's ep, it's just... i want to see sam carter, jack o'neill, teal'c, and daniel jackson travel through the stargate together. half the team i love was gone. my two fave characters were missing.

i'm sure things will pick up for me when sam/amanda returns http://forum.gateworld.net/images/gw_icons/heart.gif, but... i'm really having a hard time with my sad mood. :(



sally :/

Jace021903
July 22nd, 2005, 09:14 PM
I liked it. :)

I thought the beginning was a little cheesy, but it was fun. I like Indiana Jones. ;)

The middle did get bogged down a bit with exposition (slow down a little, Michael ;) )

The ending was surprisingly powerful. Shanks and Black were awesome. The music added a lot to the emotional impact. I got a little teary when Daniel was holding Vala's body.

Claudia Black is such a good actress. I watched both showings and the second time, I made a point to try and catch all of her facial expressions--she is always in the moment.

I continue to like Mitchell.

Chris Judge was very good in his Jaffa scenes.

I thought Lexa was good as the doctor--not as warm and fuzzy as Janet--but maybe there will be some character development to come.

Overall, a really enjoyable episode for me.

Can't wait for next week.

Jace

Taonas
July 22nd, 2005, 09:24 PM
That was so damn cool!

I am personally so happy that I have no been reading the spoilers because this story is meant to be heard from the show... I am really liking this.

I loved the Goa'Ould and the egyptian mythology... But I also like evolution in a show, and this is evolution... However, if it's truly for the best we shall see, but if the premier so far (I say that because it's a three parter) is any indication... This season will do fine.

TheCorpulent1
July 22nd, 2005, 09:25 PM
i want to see sam carter, jack o'neill, teal'c, and daniel jackson travel through the stargate together. half the team i love was gone.
The last two years must've been hell for you because the Jack O'Neill I knew, anyway, has been gone for a long time before now. I kind of made peace with the growing inevitability that RDA was going to leave after season 7. The fact that he got promoted last season spelled doom for anything more than bit appearances if it was picked up again. The SG-1 we've known and loved for years IS gone, and it isn't coming back, unfortunately. But Cam seems like a worthy successor so far and the show seems to have picked up considerably in this episode from the somewhat sluggish first part, so things are looking good. Different, but good. At least in my opinion.

Also, anybody else notice that Daniel and Cam seemed to ALWAYS be wearing the opposite colors? Kind of a funny contrast to Jonas' question of how to know which color to wear, I thought. :D

NightGloom
July 22nd, 2005, 09:27 PM
I've thought the whole swordfight thing over and I decided my first instinct was only slightly incorrect. It's not completely Rocky-esque. I believe that there is also a little bit of Walker Texas Ranger in that fight as well, minus the long stare and "strobe" effect. All we need now is horrible background music.

Amakusa
July 22nd, 2005, 10:39 PM
I also don't get why Salis dying kills Vala. I thought it was a poor plot contrivance in the Matrix when dying in the Matrix killed you in real life -- they only did it so there would be any danger whatsoever. And it's a poor plot contrivance now when Stargate copies it.


Of course YOU don't get it. You seem to think that this works like a dream-- where if you die in your dream, you wake up in a sweat suddenly from the shock of 'dying.' The reason that happens is because your body is in an inert state (or rather, with a lack of conscious motor function) while your brain is fairly active.

You saw it yourself. Daniel and Vala took over someone's body, Quantum-Leap style. It's not just your brain doing the work, it's your eyes, your mouth, your fingers, your toes, your... you get the picture. You are in an active state. You have conscious motor functions. You can get punched in the stomach and feel the pain associated with getting punched in the stomach. It is as if you were walking around in your own body, only, in some manner, it wasn't.

So what is so wrong about dying when you die?

Incidentally, Sam in Quantam Leap could very well feel the pain his host body did, and killing the host body could very well kill him, too (he leaped into a guy who was slated for the electric chair, you know).

Doesn't anyone know what Quantum Leap is these days?

sparklegem
July 22nd, 2005, 10:44 PM
Now this was a good episode. It went by so quickly, but with the pots did it just end up to be replaced the lid of the treasure one and then taking the lid off the universe one? Seems too easy to just get it right by trial and error. By the way, with the crushing ceiling, with the stone pedestals, how were the ceilings ever going to get low enough to crush them? Granted they'd be trapped, but not crushed, unless the pedestals retracted into the floor or something.

Anyway, now we're delving into more mythology, Vala wasn't mentioning sex every two seconds, Daniel got to do his thing, just a good episode! For the second time now, I have to say that Mr. Judge is doing great. In both Avalons Teal'c has just blown me away.

My main complaint last week was that it was too light hearted and, perhaps, "campy" that it took away from the realism. This was of course remedied by the fire scene. I'm so glad the producers were willing to go there. That was beautiful in a horrific way. We always expect them to get out of it at the last second so it really sucked you in when it actually happened. Even though I don't like her, I did feel for Vala. Just brillant way to really capture my attention.

Because of Daniel's and Vala's body-snatching situation and how much Daniel hates the Goa'uld, I was expecting some sort of comment.

I appreciated how fast Daniel was talking. I like it as a Danielism and when they're about to be killed, it relays the pressure and anxiety.

Definitely looking forward to next week!

macktheknife
July 22nd, 2005, 11:17 PM
Liked this ep, all the people were great, but did I miss where they said "The New Doctor Is the New General's Daughter?" even though I knew, it seemed like a big oversight. Maybe he should have said something protective and she says "it's okay dad, i'm fine" and then back to work.

It was a bloody great episode, if they keep this up it should go for another 9 seasons.

morjana
July 23rd, 2005, 12:20 AM
Well...woo-hoo, that was an exciting SciFi Friday.


"Avalon - Part Two" rocked. Wow -- what a wonderful episode. Cameron
Mitchell is learning quickly about the SGC. Even Vala was redemmed in
this episode -- her personality was toned down quite a bit in this
episode. We're introduced to Dr. Lam -- is she military? She wasn't
wearing dog tags.

Loved the sword fight between Mitchell and the holographic knight.
With the background music, the scene reminded me of the sword fight
from the Prince Valiant movie -- the Robert Wagner 1954 version, not
the inferior 1997 version, between Prince Valiant and Sir Brack.

The Vala scene being burned alive was definitely one of more dramatic -
and almost too gruesome -- scenes I've ever seen on SG1. Andy Mikita
directed this scene with an excellent hand.

We're also introduced to the name of Gerak -- he's been elected to
Govern the new Jaffa Nation. (Nice seeing Raknor again). And, we also
get to hear Gen. O'Neill's name mentioned again. It was nice hearing
his name. Missed not seeing any Sam at all in this episode, and she wasn't even mentioned. :(

Nice tie in with "Citizen Joe" using those stones -- and they're a
long range communication device. Interesting -- you could use those
stones for advance scouting. But be sure to read the Cliff Notes on
the society you're visiting, missiing out on a blessing over tea can
get you into more than hot water in some societies.

ACK! This episode is to be continued yet again -- but we get to SEE
Gen. O'Neill next week in "Origin." Yea!


Morjana

Hyperspace
July 23rd, 2005, 12:41 AM
Fun episode, an improvement over Avalon pt 1 which I also liked. Some thoughts...

...I thought that the Dr. was Landry's ex-wife, but now I see it as his daughter makes more sense.

Seeing Vala burn up was also just like the 'limited gene pool' bit, where the disdain some have for Vala was personified...she burned. Very graphic and unsettling, but powerful...and fortunate that she was revived.

Like the new team, the 'Daniel and Vala at Renaissance Fair' is a good way of putting it, for some reason I was reminded of the village from ST:TNG's premiere ep, "Encounter at Farpoint."

As for the Ori, I think it'll be a huge challenge to make them seem as real a threat compared to the past villains, and yet not soo powerful they make the past seem to pale in comparison. Also yet another major villain that lasts for seasons and seasons might not be the best way to go...or is it? And is Ori short for Origin?

Also, why didn't Daniel and Vala grab those 2 stones in the book? I thought it was kinda Myst-like, where you teleport between worlds...

...also like to know what the Arthurian legend connection is. Swordfight cool, et al cool, but Daniel and Vala overshadow it all, and Mitchell and Landry have little to do so far. Soon to see more...

UngoauldedUnas
July 23rd, 2005, 01:53 AM
Overall, I liked this episode. I need to watch it again to really make a fair assessment, but I thought it was pretty good. The sword fight with no blood being shed was awesome. But then Vala being burned... wow... that was graphic. :o

Nee
July 23rd, 2005, 03:53 AM
my only wish is that SciFi would have just had an SG-1 night. Show all of the first three episodes together. The problem I have is that each episode totally doesn't stand alone and they seemed too chopped up. Like the first half of this episode belonged to the last half of last weeks. Then the second half seemed to be a totally different episode to me.

I hate these to be continued episodes, show um all at once i say.

Part 2 was good if the rest of the season is as good, no complaints here.

Sparky13
July 23rd, 2005, 06:43 AM
Yeah, she was definitely more likeable in this one. Just have to comment, can't wait to see more of Vala and Daniel's interactions. They just drive each other crazy, and it is awesome to see on screen. Shanks and Black play the parts very well.

I agree. It is good a see Daniel interacting with a woman again. Vala is obnoxous, but she is also clever, curious and looks great in black leather. What more could a man want? She also died very well and then came back to life--just like Daniel did!

Sparky

TheCorpulent1
July 23rd, 2005, 06:54 AM
Yeah, Vala and Daniel were pretty funny this time around. I was on the floor when Vala told him about that "procreation... with herself" bit and Daniel was like, "Oh... OH!" His expression and everything on those lines were hilarious. :D

Seastallion
July 23rd, 2005, 06:55 AM
Great episode..! :D

I loved the whole thing. :) I really liked the Star Wars reference made by Col. Mitchell (...a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away. :p ). Then right after that was the, "One of these things is not like the others"...! :D I can still hear the music that goes with it on Sesame Street... *sings* One of these things... is not like the others... LOL :D I loved that..! :p

AGateFan
July 23rd, 2005, 07:30 AM
The "he has no idea what you just said" line was pretty funny too and pretty unexpected considering I was thinking Mitchell was serious with the military thing, but then he didnt expect to get overheard and sometimes you say different stuff when you think no one is listing. I like his reaction when he knew he was caught... back to mr serious military guy.

Mio
July 23rd, 2005, 08:07 AM
A quick question before a more detailed analysis later...

Cam's puzzle appeared to be the reflections of Arabic numerals. Is this even remotely historically accurate? I was under the impression that Arabic numerals didn't get over to Europe until the 1200s AD and the King Arthur legend and Merlin was supposedly between 400 and 600 AD? Any history buffs out there to clarify this?

Maybe the computer read his mind and the little puzzle pieces were really holograms?

rosewood
July 23rd, 2005, 08:15 AM
I liked that whole scene - Daniel trying to get Landry's attention (and talking way too fast), then Landry's "tell me to send you and I will" back. Plus the comic timing of Mitchell, Landry and Daniel before and after the "he had no idea what you said" comment at the door was great. It will be interesting if we do see Landry go off world in the future.

Loved that Sci Fi Friday started with Firefly last night! Ooops, back to SG1...

Liked the sword fight - good action.
Dakara visits - this was distracting. Nice emotion by CG. But how can I know if Teal'c should be as concerned that Gerak is leader when I've never seen Gerak? (Did I miss it?) Talking about a character that has not been shown to the audience... writing 101 - show, don't tell.

The switch to the "Renaissance Faire" scene was a bit jarring, but well acted by CB and MS. Good reaction by Mitchell when Lam said Vala is dead. I could see the "somebody got killed on my watch already" thoughts pass across his face.

I'm still confused about the distinction between Alterrans/Ancients - are they same, or are the Alterrans the Milky Way tribe descended from the Ancients and the Ori are going to be some other galaxy's tribe descend from the Ancients?

Part 2 was good...here's hoping Part 3 continues in this way and the Ori hold up as the new Big Bad.

keshou
July 23rd, 2005, 08:17 AM
When I first saw the spoilers for these episodes I thought - oh no. A potentially cheesy sword fight with a knight and a village scene that reminds me of "Demons" (not exactly my favorite episode :p )

Happy to say my fears weren't realized. Well not totally. I hope to never see another sword fight on Stargate.

But overall I enjoyed it. The hour flew by. I like seeing the new characters work with the old characters. In fact the first two episodes I've hardly glanced at the clock which is always a good sign for me. (Way too many clock-watching episodes the last three seasons if you know what I mean.) I actually kind of gasped when Vala caught on fire and found myself quite moved by that whole scene.

Special mention to Joel Goldsmith. I really thought the music had a lot to do with selling the whole medieval/fire scene in the last 15 minutes. It added tension and drama and made it much more effective. So thanks Joel! See we do pay attention on occasion. ;)

Speaking of the characters.....

*Vala. See - if they just give her some depth and angst and drop some of the risque sex talk and take her out of the s&m outfit she can be a GOOD character. I really enjoy her snark and the way she needles Daniel. They're a lot of fun together. Vala gets some great lines.

*Mitchell. In spite of the cheesy sword-fighting scene I have to give Ben credit. He made it work pretty well. Still - I won't be unhappy to leave the "Merlin was an ancient" portion of this three-parter behind.

*Daniel. Thank goodness for close-captioning. I'm beginning to think MS and DH are having some kind of contest. ;) Still - I thought MS did a great job in the whole medieval scenes. He seems as invested in playing Daniel as I've seen in a long time. He and CB have good chemistry and really sold the brutal fire scene. Also - the beard looks much better when he's in peasant clothes and without the glasses.

*General Landry. Hmm....I did like his exchange with Mitchell. "I heard that". Still I find him a little off-putting although I'm hopeful I'll eventually like him.

*Dr. Lam. I just kept going "oh - there's Lexa" when I saw her. I don't know. I just loved Janet so much - she's a hard act to follow. Guess it's just a wait and see on this one.

So much of these first three episodes is just set-up for the rest of the season. SG-1 doesn't exist right now. It's just setting up the new villain, introducing the new characters, etc.

A lot will depend on the introduction of the Ori next week. I hope they pull it off.

I've seen some comments about the fire scene being too gruesome. Frankly I thought it *made* the episode. It's been a long time since Stargate really took some chances. I thought it was dramatic and well-done. Loved the overhead camera work.

And it's not like we haven't had some pretty brutal scenes before. Teal'c's torture scenes in Serpent's Venom were pretty brutal. Screaming over and over. So was Jack being tortured in Abyss. Maybe it would have been nice to have an advisory though since evidently there are some parents who let young children watch the show. :S

Lida
July 23rd, 2005, 08:33 AM
Well, I was surprised. I liked Avalon, Part 2. Yes, Vala's being there was contrived, but CB's acting, plus the toning down of her overtly sexual quips, made it more than bearable, I enjoyed her.

As for Ben Browder as Mitchell, I still think he was an excellent choice, as he adds a spark the show would otherwise lack. He is great with one liners, which exactly what the part needs. Anyone catch his Sesame Street reference? :D

I think Beau Bridges is still doing a great job as Gen Landry, he is NOT supposed to be a Hammond clone, plus, he's new. He has to be tough, and besides, he has yet to form any personal bonds with his "crew".

The new doc. It would have been nice if they had explained why they had her there, rather than an Air Force doc. Also, it would have been nice if the technical advisor had told them how to run a REAL code. Sorry, but she leaves me cold and she is just NOT believable. I'll take ole' Doc Frasier any day. Oh well.....

As for MS, he has been talking rather fast, hasn't he? I know it isn't "drugs", so why are the writers making his character seem so, "dorky"? It's almost like he's going back to "his" roots. I liked the "old" (as in recent seasons) Daniel, more self assured, more assertive. Hopefully, this is just an aberration.

Teal'c is really toned down, but I think it's a set up for the fireworks to come with Gerak. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

Over-all, I feel better about SG-1 this week, than I did last week and I'm looking forward to the conclusion of this 3 parter, next Friday.

kazbaby
July 23rd, 2005, 08:35 AM
Is it bad that I was squeeing like a 14 year old girl during the swordfight? Of course, I have a thing for that type of deal. :D But one thing I really loved was that Rocky vibe I got. I'm a sucker for the 'comeback', and dude... Mitchell was seriously getting his tail whooped there.

I didn't find the flashback cheesy at all. Mitchell was exhausted at that point, and he would more than naturally pull on something to keep him going and him not giving up during his recovery can be seen as decent motivation to continue the fight.

Loved MS and CB in their scenes, especially the ending there.

Teal'c...damn I love it when he's p*ssed off! :cool:

I'm so looking forward to next week.

Liebestraume
July 23rd, 2005, 09:04 AM
This episode felt like two decent stories strung together. Though somewhat disjointed, each has its own merit.

I was happy to see Teal'c finally got to speak -- many lines, and pretty fast! Besides that -- and the rather stunning-looking stock photo of Jaffa homeworld -- very little of what goes on there interested me. However, I understand TPTB was just trying to give Teal'c another cause to re-join the Tau'ris, and perhaps laying some foundation for future storyline; so that was good enough for me.

The sword fight didn't feel "cheesy" to me (but, then, I'm a big fan of Indiana Jones). In fact, I thought that was the first time I was shown -- instead of mere told -- why Mitchell deserved his place on the team. I was rather glad for it. Having been a big-time downer on the flahbacks in the last episode, I think the brief one in this episode actually worked. And the flip-flop between "he had no idea what you just said" and the perfect-soldier demeanor was strangely endearing.

Daniel looked the old Daniel to me, his nose buried in a book, his hands where they shouldn't be :p. If anything, I think there has been a slight improvement from last season when he occasionally seemed rather bored or slightly annoyed. Here he actually seemed to care. I think MS gave an especially powerful performance in the scenes leading to Vala's burning at the "stake" and eventual revival.

Vala continues to grow on me, thanks in no small part to CB's performance. This actress knows how to do over-the-top as well as subtlety, and her nuanced perforrmance near the end of the episode told us a great deal about her character: here is a woman of intelligence, good humor, as well as vulnerablity. To make her way in the world(s), she had to construct a tough exterior out of the the first two qualities to hide the third.

A minor complaint: it would have been a better idea to air the first three episodes in a single showing. I'd have wondered what Avalon had to do with Salem, if it weren't for the spoilers in these threads. However, "spoiling" should never be part of story-telling techinique.

AGateFan
July 23rd, 2005, 09:24 AM
I want to say somthing about the sword fight.

Some people may think the fight itself was cheesy, that Im not going to argue with because everyone has their opinion of what cheesy is. But the actual fight itself, the way it was choreographed was done much better then most sword fights you see on TV (outside of Highlander). Take a look at the Farscape ep with the sword fight, that was aweful, even embarrising (the fights no comment on the ep since BB wrote it). As are most hand to hand combat scene's you see on other Sci Fi shows (startrek and Tasha Yar come to mind as particularly horrendous)

So even if you thought the fight was cheesy you still must IMHO give 2 thumbs up to Bam or whoever put that fight together because it was very well done.

Also the Special Effects guys get points for the cool way the holographic blades impacted each (although the last swing by Mitchell was a bit OTT)

Jonisa
July 23rd, 2005, 09:28 AM
I really enjoyed it. I was completely invested all the way through the entire episode, never glanced at the clock once.

The good:

Daniel/Vala interaction. For me, these two have a lot of chemistry. I'm not saying that I want their relationship to go in any particular direction, but I sure do like these two together. They're entertaining. I loved the look on Vala's face when she was considering taking the coin. Hee. Also loved how Daniel has figured her out. "What'd you take?" Heh.

Daniel in archealogist mode. I loved Mitchell's remark that the first thing Daniel reaches for in a room filled with treasure is a big, dusty book. So Daniel. :)

Mitchell. I like his interactions with Landry, Daniel, Teal'c. He's funny without being Jack. "One of these things is not like the other," and "He didn't understand a word you just said."

Landry. Really like him. Gruff, no-nonsense, but fair. Looking forward to getting to know him better.

The Final Act: That was powerful. CB and MS played it very well, and I was very engrossed in what was happening to Vala and Daniel's reaction to it. I found it suspenseful, and I can't remember the last time I've been that on edge when I watched Stargate. (The no-spoilers rule I imposed on myself this year has helped immensely with that. :p)

The "I'm not sure how I feel about yet":

Lam. I liked that she definitely has a personality, in contrast to the female doctor at the beginning of Season 8. Need to see more of her to form more of an opinion.

The not-so-good:

Teal'c and the Jaffa stuff. Love Teal'c, love CJ, but I have very little Jaffa storylines. That's just my personal opinion, and admittedly, it was an extremely minor part of the episode.

The swordfight. I think Ben Browder did a good job with it, but it was just a leeetle too cheesy for me.

Overall, I thought it was great. :D

keshou
July 23rd, 2005, 09:29 AM
Daniel looked the old Daniel to me, his nose buried in a book, his hands where they shouldn't be . If anything, I think there has been a slight improvement from last season when he occasionally seemed rather bored or slightly annoyed. Here he actually seemed to care. I think MS gave an especially powerful performance in the scenes leading to Vala's burning at the "stake" and eventual revival.
I thought so too. I think ALL the characters have looked pretty bored (at times) over the last couple of seasons. I'm glad to see the stupor broken. I thought MS was excellent in the village scenes - and frankly I wasn't sure how well he was going to pull those off.


Vala continues to grow on me, thanks in no small part to CB's performance. This actress knows how to do over-the-top as well as subtlety, and her nuanced perforrmance near the end of the episode told us a great deal about her character: here is a woman of intelligence, good humor, as well as vulnerablity. To make her way in the world(s), she had to construct a tough exterior out of the the first two qualities to hide the third.
Excellent concise analysis of the character. I've always suspected her "Barbarella/JackSparrow" act hid some vulnerabilities and it's nice to see the layers of the onion being peeled back a little. CB did an excellent job in those final scenes. Shaken, yet still able to throw off the quip.


A minor complaint: it would have been a better idea to air the first three episodes in a single showing. I'd have wondered what Avalon had to do with Salem, if it weren't for the spoilers in these threads. However, "spoiling" should never be part of story-telling techinique.
I agree. It's like they planned on a two-hour premiere. But then it ran long and they decided to split it all up in three parts.

The first hour's story really didn't end until the discovery of the ancient stone communcation device. Then off on a whole different storyline for the last 45 minutes. But a minor nit - overall it worked pretty well.

kazbaby
July 23rd, 2005, 09:38 AM
Take a look at the Farscape ep with the sword fight, that was aweful, even embarrising (the fights no comment on the ep since BB wrote it).

To say something in defense of that, Crichton's character wasn't supposed to know how to sword fight. One of his line's is 'I saw this on tv once.' So it's supposed to be bad since the fight techique was like the off-shoot of distorted memories. :p

Plus, I think Browder actually trained for this particular fight. So it was bound to be a lot better in the choreography. ;)

Skydiver
July 23rd, 2005, 09:51 AM
all in all, i found it slow.

still like landry, still like cam. thank goodness they're toning vala down....but a little of her still goes a long, long, long ways. (and i think i got enough last season)

the merlin/knight thing...silly. almost seemed like something that was done just so someone could brag about their sfx brilliance.

I think lam will fit in well, daniel must get paid by the word or something becauseifhetalksanyfasterwe'llneedtoslowmotheshowtounderstandhim.

the orii will be appropriately creepy but time will tell if this religious overtone will pay off or turn off. i live in a world that's threatened by religious extremists, can't say that i care for my entertainment to be dealing with it too.

i've even tried watching it like i'm watching a pilot of a new show...but there are just too many similarities to the show it used to be to totally divorce myself from the 'good old days'

maybe it is the lack of sam that's doing it for me. i see the potential for chemistry between these characters....if they're ever in the same scene together. Right now, i'm seeing disjointed bits and pieces and nothing that entices me to stick the tape in and rewatch it to see what i've missed.

lily
July 23rd, 2005, 09:56 AM
Well, I watched "Avalon - part 2" once so far and I absolutely LOVED IT. I hope I can watch it 2 or 3 more times this weekend, and hopefully some more during the week.

What an intense episode! Couln't believe it when I saw the dreadful "to be continued" on screen. I swear it seemed like only 15 minutes had passed. I was like "no waaaayyyyyyyy". Can't wait for Origin.

Some detailed comments, not necessarily in order of appearance, I'm just typing as I remember some stuff.

1. The conclusion of last week's cliffhanger. Our Daniel Jackson solve the riddles once again! Hey, that's what archaelogists do (Indiana Jones, anyone?). Loved it! And when Daniel and Vala are waiting outside, no hearing any more sounds from inside the cave where Mitchell and Teal'c are, and Vala says "I didn't hear any squeashing sounds." LOL. Typical of her.

2. Our good Dr. Lee's back. Yes! I like the character very much. I'm very glad TPTB are giving him more screen time. Hope he's back for more epis through out this season. Two scenes with him that pop up right now. The one where Daniel, Vala, Cameron and him are around that Ancient device, discussing what to do with the stones, and Lee says something like "we are sure...", then he looks at Daniel and adds something like "reasonably certain"... Can't remember the exact words, now, since I watched the epi only once, but it was a great scene. And nice linking to s8's "Citizen Joe" too. The other scene with Dr. Lee I especially loved was the one where he puts himself between the Ancient device and Mitchell, to stop him from shooting it. Hehe

3. Cameron's fighting with the sword. Loved it! I was pleasantly surprised, because I thought that scene was from part 1, and when we didn't see it last week, I thought it hadn't survived the editor's cut. I like the little flashback Cameron had about his stay in hospital while fighting. I hope they include some little more in future episodes. Hopefully we'll see some more flashbacks in Origin. Yes!

4. Vala literally swimming in the treasure. ROTFLMAO

5. Daniel discovering the real name of the Ancients.

6. Dr. Lam. I had never seen Lexa Doig acting before (the only sci fi series I watch are both SG-1 and SGA, so I never watched Andromeda, just a few scenes but she was not in. I don't like sci fi in general, not a fan of this genre at all), but I have to admit she's great in this role. I've read some people saying that she's too young for this character, for playing CMO. Well, just go and grab your SG-A s1 DVDs, and take a look at "The Broca Divide" for example. Teryl Rothery looked really young in that one, as young as Lexa Doig looks now, and Teryl's character, Janet, seemed to be CMO at that time too (at least we didn't see her reporting to other medical personnel back then, so I assume she was the CMO too). Liked the scene with Landry very much, it was well played by both. And I also liked her in the other scenes. I think TPTB made a real good choice in casting her.

7. Nice scene between Teal'c and Ra'knor. Teal'c gets to say more than just "indeed". Great scene, where Teal'c talks with passion about his believes.

8. Background music. I think I did't mention this for "Avalon - part 1", but I'll say it now. I liked the background music VERY much in both Avalon parts.

9. Daniel and Vala. Once again, I love the banter between those two. Daniel was great, as usual. And Vala was even better than in part 1 and PU. We see another facet of her. The burning scene was so intense. That one, together with the post burning scene, brought tears to my eyes.

10. The scene were Daniel, Vala, Cameron and Landry are walking through the SGC aisles, then in the elevator, then back to aisles, and then Landry walking into a room and closing the door. Daniel was great, just talking and trying to convice poor Landry. And then Landry closing the door, Mitchell telling Daniel "He has no idea what you just said", and Landry opening the door again and saying "yes, I am". LOL


Those were my top fav moments. Pretty much the whole episode. LOL. I'm sure I'll add more after watching it more times.

In short, as I said. LOVE it!

MediaSavant
July 23rd, 2005, 10:07 AM
I want to say somthing about the sword fight.

Some people may think the fight itself was cheesy, that Im not going to argue with because everyone has their opinion of what cheesy is. But the actual fight itself, the way it was choreographed was done much better then most sword fights you see on TV (outside of Highlander).

Thanks for bringing that up, because I absolutely agree with you. I've watched it a few times now--it's the only thing in the episode I've gone back to--and it *is* and extremely well-choreographed and executed fight scene.

As for the flashbacks that some people seem to like and others don't, I'm on the "like" side. I'm very intrigued by how Mitchell was able to from paralysis to being healthy like he is now. I wonder if they'll show us more. I wouldn't mind.

Hatcheter
July 23rd, 2005, 10:11 AM
This episode was good, but still felt rather exposition heavy to me. Which excites me; if they're laying this much groundwork now, there should be a great payoff coming out of it the rest of the season.

I like the fact that the Ori were as unaware of us as we were of them. I had seen some pre-season complaints about how a new enemy conviently springs up once the Goa'uld were defeated. But this way, the Ori could have appeared at any time, and it's just fortunate that they didn't show up while the Goa'uld were still in power.

Or perhaps it's not, the goa'uld might have done well to fight these other gods. A lot of Jaffa might welcome new, "truer" gods now that they've overthrown their old ones.

And of course, it's SG-1 who's going out and making things worse for the whole galaxy. Par for the course. :D :p

Seshat
July 23rd, 2005, 10:44 AM
Overall I liked this episode, but it felt rather disjointed - as if I watched two separate episodes. The first half was all Mitchell and the "great cave adventure" but the second half was all Daniel/Vala at the Renaissance Fair. Both parts were good, but felt odd to me.

I'm liking Landry more and more. He fits now, and the wee crossover with SGA with a nice touch. Lexa didn't do much, but I liked her and think she will do a good job. As for Mitchell, I'm already thinking of him as part of the team. Browder was a good choice. All we need is Carter. :D

Vala - I said last week that TPTB would tone her down. Last week was her big splash, and it had to be good. I like Vala and hope she comes back beyond her 5-6 episodes - not as a reg, but pop in now and then. Claudia is a hoot!

Can I say I'm tired of the Jaffa? ;)
I heartily agree with FP in all of the above, except that the Jaffa storyline doesn't bore me so far this season as much as it has done in the past. I think I would enjoy watching the former warriors and their struggle to evolve into a more peaceful society. But I doubt a smooth transition is planned by the writers. ;)

I watched Lexa's first appearance closely, and was delighted at how well she fit into the show, both in her professional demeanor and her thoughtful delivery. Still liking Ben's performance, esp. now that he's calmed down a bit. He doesn't have to try quite so hard to win me over. And Beau is always a treat! :D Claudia was quite endearing this go 'round, I really felt pity for her in the fire scene even though I was spoiled for it. (Am I the only one who thought there would have been MORE screaming in that situation? And wouldn't she have been a bit too...ahem...WARM to touch so soon??) :rolleyes:

I look forward to Sam's return. I kept wondering what her comments would have been throughout the ep. She would have had a few choice words in the cave, to be sure, and been right there with Dr. Lee trying to figure out the device. I miss Amanda. I bet they did, too.

Oh, and PLEASE somebody tell Michael to sloooow down. It spoils the show to have to always watch it with the captioning on just to try figure out what the heck Daniel is saying. :p

TheCorpulent1
July 23rd, 2005, 10:49 AM
All right, a lot of people seem to have problems with the Merlin as an Ancient thing. What, if I may ask, is so bad about it? No one batted an eyelash when the ancient Egyptian, Japanese, and Classical gods were revealed to be parasitic snakes who live in people's heads. How is Merlin's being a highly evolved human who tricked medieval England into believing he's a wizard with his limited ascended powers any goofier than that?

As for Landry, I still like him a lot. The Patton dialogue with Mitchell was nice, and it was a good way to draw a line in the sand between the military and civilian members of the not-quite-SG-1. Daniel's bursting at the seams at the mere possibility of learning more about the Ancients; the military dudes need hard evidence and a means of accessing that knowledge to care. But back to Landry: like Lida said, he's new and he's feeling his way through the day-to-day management of the SGC still. He hasn't formed emotional attachments to anyone (except Lam, naturally), so he's gruff with everyone to keep from being perceived as soft. Hell, he doesn't even have an SG-1 to get acquainted with at the moment. He reminds me a lot of Hammond in "Children of the Gods," but a bit more exaggerated. Hammond seemed to hate Daniel at first, as I recall, and he was more than displeased that Jack disobeyed orders with the Stargate, which ended up putting Earth in danger.

golfbooy
July 23rd, 2005, 11:12 AM
Well, here's my take on Avalon 2 (way too long of a post to follow):

In order to appease that inner voice that just keeps jumping up and shouting at me over and over again, let me start off by saying, as I did last week, how absolutely terrible the new opening credits sequence is. I mean, my God Skiffy, what the hell were you thinking? The shortened theme comes across as an even more egregious error this week in light of Joel Goldsmith's inspired score for Avalon 2. As others here have mentioned already, the score, and especially the use of vocals, greatly contributed to the dramatic presentation of the episode. Here, the music definitly added an extra layer to what was happening onscreen. Without shooting for hyperbole, this is post production at its finest.

Now, with that out of my system, on to the story itself. I liked it. In spite of the King Arthur nonsense, which on second viewing I didn't find nearly as objectionable as the first, I really liked the episode. If there's anything to really complain about, it's the cut between Avalon 1 and Avalon 2. Mitchell's battle with the knight was a scene that I've been dreading since I first heard about it. I just didn't see any way that they could make such an overused, cliched concept work. Nonetheless, I watched. And, for the most part, was rewarded with a scene that fit with the tenor of Stargate. There was enough humor in the presentation to avoid making me cringe, and now that I sit here thinking about it, that is something.

And, in spite of my distaste for such stories, I didn't really mind the inclusion of Mitchell's flashback in the scene. I think it did work for the character; we've certainly seen the same out of Teal'c on a number of occasions. Hey, face it, that's how fight scenes are filmed in television. My one complaint with the scene is the special effects. I could have done without the flashing, energy emmitting sword and the slow motion action. But, as I said, you have to expect some of that from television. Those complaints are really nitpicking, though. But, while I'm spliting hairs, what's with the massive piles of gold and trinkets? That did seem out of place to me. If what we're looking for here is a link to the Ancients, then why does the promised treasure actually include treasure? The only answer I can come up with is that the producers fell in love with the visual of Vala swimming in it. I would have thought that the book Daniel was reading and the communication device would have sufficed. Anyway, like I said, those are relatively minor complaints.

Continuing on, I really liked the scenes at the SGC. Alot of people have commented on the fact that they don't feel like a team, and that they all seem rather on edge around each other. And I agree. It's just that I think that that is what the story calls for. Whether or not this is a turn off for you is a personal decision, reluctant as some people are to admit it. This is not our team. It's not the SG-1 of seasons past, and it's not the SG-1 of the future. This team, or non-team if that makes sense, is only grouped together by circumstance. I don't expect them to be as "tight" as SG-1 the military unit. Vala wants to make her fortune, Daniel wants all things Ancient, Teal'c is stressed out and frustrated with the Jaffa, and Mitchell is just trying to keep them all on the same page. And, for me, that's the way it should be. Jack's and Sam's absences are attributable to factors beyond the control of the producers. So, perhaps it would be instructive to look at these first five episodes as not quite the show that the producers are intending to make. And it's not that I'm saying it's bad. I think the shake up is really good for the overall story.

In the hopes of cutting my rambling down a bit, let's move on to the other major story point, the Ori. For me, this is the part of Stargate that I fell in love with. SG-1, from the beginning, always took shots at the mind-numbing, life limiting aspects of religion. That's what the Goa'uld story started out as, that's what the Ori story is starting out as. I'm aware that this is a turn off for a whole bunch of people. That's fine. Turn off. But this, for me, is hearkening back to some earlier tones from the series. It's not classic SG-1, nor do I ever want it to be. But it is a classic theme, and it's one that I appreciate. The presentation of the Ori's worshipers also worked for me, from the devout to the doubters, none of it seemed too over the top, none of it seemed to be intended with a light tone. And it worked fantastically. The burning scene was, for me, like tv crack. I'm hooked, and I want another fix. I want more with the priors, more with info about the Ori, and, yes, even more Daniel Jackson and Vala.

And, while the praise is flowing, let me just say how excited I am about the impending Jaffa nation stuff. The scene between Teal'c and Raknor was outstanding. I'm eagerly awaiting Lou Gossett's entrance to the story, and I'm definitly digging the conflicted Teal'c. Even though many others descry the Jaffa as boring, I can't even begin to agree. To be honest, the Jaffa haven't been this interesting in quite awhile. I want more.

I'm going to end this diatribe by complimenting the producers, Brad Wright and Rob Cooper in particular, for following through on their preseason promises. From the earliest interviews regarding season nine, both producers have promised to keep the character of Jack O'niell alive in the SG-1 universe. Clearly an attempt was made of that here. I loved the tie in to Citizen Joe and Jack's possession of the Ancient gene. And, I loved that Jack is pushing for a renewed relationship between Landry and Lam, no matter how surreptitious he has to be about it. That's the Jack O'neill that cares for SG-1. And, while he's gone in presence, at least he's not gone altogether.

I think that I'll make another post regarding the individual characters, seeing as how this post, rather predictably, continues to grow in size, despite my best efforts.

ToasterOnFire
July 23rd, 2005, 11:25 AM
More stuff from me:


-Vala! Less annoying?! Downright likeable??!! Thank you PTB for toning down on her childish behaviors!!

-Daniel acting more like Daniel?? Even better.

-Cam, Landry, Lam, and the Jaffa vote were all "meh" for me.

-The swordfight was total cheese and the flashback was out of place. Awkward to watch.

-And I completely agree with everyone who said this ep felt like two halves. Cramming all of the Merlin bit along with introducing Cam would have been way too much for a first ep though. It probably should have been:
-first ep: let's get to know Cam, AKA "The Mitch-fomercial"
-second ep: Merlin, tomb, etc
-third ep: body displacement, Orii, etc.


All in all, this ep was vastly superior to the premiere. Toning down Vala and changing storylines away from the Arthur arc helped immensely.

Jace021903
July 23rd, 2005, 11:39 AM
Vala continues to grow on me, thanks in no small part to CB's performance. This actress knows how to do over-the-top as well as subtlety, and her nuanced perforrmance near the end of the episode told us a great deal about her character: here is a woman of intelligence, good humor, as well as vulnerablity. To make her way in the world(s), she had to construct a tough exterior out of the the first two qualities to hide the third.




I don't know how Vala would go over if there was a less capable actress playing her. On paper, she sounds like a character that I personally would really dislike, but CB somehow pulls it off.

Vala definately has some layers we haven't seen yet. As a former host, she has to have some very disturbing memories that she keeps buried under that in-your-face exterior. Being burned alive is going to rank right up there, I would think.

Jace

Kalinda
July 23rd, 2005, 12:19 PM
Well, I feel a bit cheated, I figured we'd learn some more about the Orii in this episode then we did. But I guess the writers have a lot of explaining to do. And of course they leave us with another cliffhanger. It'd be neat if on the DVDs all three episodes are edited together, but that's not likely because the third has a different name.

The sword fight was pretty awesome and I loved the music, as well as Mitchell's determination. I wonder if the sword will get any use later in the season, or it has anything else about it. Probly not, though.

Actually, the music for the whole episode was quite good, espeically the medieval-like stuff near the end.

General Landry is starting to grow on me more and more. I found the scene where he talks to Carolyn to be interesting and Immediately knew there was something between them. I haven't read spoilers so I don't know, but I figure she's probly the daughter he mentioned as it seems unlikely they had a past romantic relationship. The appearant age difference gives more to the first option. So, interesting lil subplot there.

I'm glad this episode wasn't as humour-filled as the last one, except a little bit, but no more then is usual for Stargate. Plus Vala cut back on all her sexual stuff, which was also nice. It was funny in Part 1, but it would've gotten really old really fast had they kept it up.

I got a real sense of peril when Vala was set on fire and then "died" :eek: I think I would've been more axcited by it had I not known she couldn't die because she was appearing in more episodes. The acting was great during that scene and, though I figured the staff of the mysterious dude would heal Vala when he appeared, he was still pretty cool. Liked his entrance and the music that came with it. And this cliffhanger is a bit more interesting then the last. Still, I felt kinda cheated.

Otherwise, I quite enjoyed the episode ^_^

So.. 8.5/10.

Can't wait till next week!

puddlejumper747
July 23rd, 2005, 12:34 PM
I felt like we didn't really accomplish a whole lot in Avalon Part I....but this week was much better. :cool:
Alterans. Holographic sword fight. Hidden treasure. Intergalactic communication device. :D The Orii are looking pretty cool....and pretty creepy. The opening "credits" clip still sucks, but what can I do about that now? :rolleyes:

Last week I was rather annoyed that every other sentence coming out of Vala's mouth had to be some sexually-oriented comment....this week I liked her attitude a whole lot better, and basically ended up forgiving her for last week after she got burned alive. :eek: Although I must admit the whole Orii altar design itself was kind of cool.

I had absolutely no idea that it would be a three-part episode arc. That caught me completely off-guard! And the worst part of all: I'm going to be away for the next 2 weeks, so I won't be able to watch any of the next two episodes (of SG1, SGA, or BSG) until I get back. :( Ah, well....such are the evils of summer vacation. :p :)

golfbooy
July 23rd, 2005, 12:56 PM
OK, as I promised (or threatened, depending upon your view) above, here are some more of my rambling thoughts about Avalon 2:

Let's start with Mitchell. Honestly, there's really not too much to say about him in this episode. We learn a bit about him, but nothing that seems to stand out to me. He's determined and strong-willed, which is just so damn surprising. More substantially, technobabble and, apparently memos and files, are not anathema to him. So, that's good. And, for all those critics, not very Jack-like. As for Ben Browder, I still think he's doing a fine job. He's very competant, if perhaps still trying to find his feet with the character. I'm sure there's more to come.

Vala. She absolutely worked great in the second half Avalon 2. The burning scene was richly conceived and terrifically executed. Kudos to Andy Mikita for a fine bit of direction, and kudos to Claudia Black for a fine bit of acting. Both give the scene a sense of tragedy and despair. Very nice.

It's great to see Daniel Jackson with something new and meaty to get excited about. I, unlike many of you apparently, rather enjoy his rapid speech. The fact that Daniel's tongue is constantly outpaced by his brain fits the character to a tee. If all it does is force the audience to pay closer attention to what he's saying, then all the better. Exploring a strange culture and religion is exactly what Daniel Jackson signed up for when he joined the SGC in the first place. And he seems quite at home still doing it today. Lastly, it is Michael Shanks portrayal of Daniel's quiet grief over Vala's immolation that gives the final scenes so much gravitas and tragic majesty. With just that one scene, the Ori are given more depth and potential than the Wraith have been given in a whole season's worth of work on Atlantis.

And can I just say how refreshing it is to finally have the gaping void left by Dr. Frasier's death competently filled? Lexa Doig delivered a fine, nuanced performance, bringing the comfort of what appears to be a civilian doctor to a rather rigid, marshal setting. There have been many complaints that she is too brusque, too detached and assertive in her bedside demeanor. But, let's face it, if she was caring and overly empathetic then everybody would be complaining that they simply recast Frasier. Dr. Lam's Landry issues work, for now, and offer the audience an insight into the character outside of "consumate professional". No matter what, it'll be good to be back in the infirmary.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but I still have serious misgivings about Beau Bridges as General Landry. So far, he just doesn't work for me. That's ok, neither did Hammond really, but for being such a highly touted, big-time star, he comes across as rather out of sync with the rest of the cast. His best scene was with Dr. Lam, and hopefully he'll grow to be a lot more comfortable. But, for now, when Hank Landry goes into "command mode", I just chuckle. It's like he's trying to be the alpha male and failing miserably, like that kid at school who just never caught on to just how ridiculous he was behaving. Oh well, there certainly could have been bigger disappointments than Landry in these first episodes. Perhaps I should be thankful that he's the only one for me.

I feel the need to add a word about Carter. The show misses her, and rightly so. Dr. Lee, while being a fine subsitute is only that, a substitute. SG-1 is going to continue to lack cohesion as a unit until she returns. And, while that's not inherently a bad thing, it will be good to have both Sam Carter and Amanda Tapping back on board.

Lastly, there's Teal'c. Like Mitchell, he wasn't in Avalon 2 a whole lot, but when he was, he was absolutely the star. The Jaffa storyline is brimming over with potential, as is the potential character development of Teal'c. He's conflicted, and for the first time looking much more comfortable and at home among the Tauri than he is with the Jaffa. This can only lead to good places. Chris Judge is delivering a masterful performance so far. The scene where he and Raknor argue plays great, for both characters. And while Teal'c is being rather economical with his words, they are all well chosen and full of significance.

All in all, Avalon is an even, measured introduction into the new story and new characters. While a one-night, three-part showing for these opeining episodes would have been ideal, there's no point complaining about it now. And there's little point in faulting a good story for the time constraints of television. How long until Origin?

jyh
July 23rd, 2005, 01:03 PM
I *like* Daniel's beard. I think they have him wearing it temporarily to initially distinguish him from Ben Browder (re that whole "limited gene pool" thing), so I think he'll shave it off eventually.

Even though I found this episode pretty hard to follow-- very disjointed-- too many different elements-- I did think the burning scene at the end was very good. Surprising too, as I'm sure everybody thought that something was going to happen at the last minute to keep Vala from actually burning. But since most everyone on this board knows that CB has a contract for a certain amount of episodes, that couldn't be the end of her. However, while the burning thing was cool, and the hot molten liquid making its way to her was very clever and cool to watch (so to speak), think about it... would a renaissance-era village have a peasant-burning apparatus in the middle of the town square? Just goes to show that you really can't think too much about what you see on a TV show... while it looks good, it doesn't always make a whole lot of sense.

And I thought that Landry should have added a comment when he said of Vala, "What's she doing in my facility?" He should have added, "If she's going to be here a while, find her something decent to wear." Thankfully, her character is less grating on my nerves in Part 2, and I think someone else said it well that every comment out of her mouth doesn't have to be sexual innuendo. If she's going to be on future episodes, I hope the writers continue to develop her into a more realistic character rather than a cartoonish one.

Oh, and I really HATE (and I mean HATE) that the opening score has been cut from both SG-1 and SGA. Especially Atlantis... I love that music!! (And sure, now that the theme has been nominated for an Emmy, what does Sci-Fi do but cut it down to 6 seconds. Get a clue, Sci-Fi!)

creed462
July 23rd, 2005, 01:28 PM
I had resevations at frist I didn't want then to posess another body... But I was pleasently surprrise. Come On Season Ten

SGLAB
July 23rd, 2005, 01:48 PM
I'm one of the few who likes the Jaffa eps. I think the direction they're taking this season looks very interesting and I look forward to how Teal'c will be dealing with being pulled in two different directions.

KatG
July 23rd, 2005, 01:51 PM
I liked this much better than Avalon I. It was much more interesting and held my attention throughout. Vala and Daniel work quite well together when they manage to stop sniping at each other. So, overall I would say that I'm encouraged that the rest of the season might just be okay.

joasia
July 23rd, 2005, 01:51 PM
The fire scene was conveiniant. Really, whats with the intricate fire designs? if I want to see cool stuff with fire, I'll get some booze and a sparkler.The design looks like a symbol of the Ori religion. The Prior (at last I think it was a Prior) had similar patterns on his robe.

G0t3nks
July 23rd, 2005, 02:16 PM
I really liked this episode and of course the spectacular ending aswell, I think the ori will be THE baddie :D

LORD MONK
July 23rd, 2005, 02:38 PM
Excellent, loved it, can't wait for Origin to rap it all up into me liking it even more.

And when the Pale looking dude showed up with everyone bowing down and all he says is fallow me. That was great. Lets face it, if you realy are all powerful you realy don't have to say much.

Seshat
July 23rd, 2005, 02:44 PM
Did no one else find it amusing that the names of the two people that Daniel and Vala "inhabited" were Harrid and Sallis?? ;):D Okay, just me, again...sigh... :rolleyes:

Dana_Jeanne
July 23rd, 2005, 03:19 PM
And another opinion at the opposite end of the spectrum chimes in: I LOVED IT. I've never been any good at puzzles, so I didn't get the obviousness of the two in the rooms, nor do I watch the Simpsons. I'm not sure WHAT Daniel figured out though as I couldn't understand HALF of what he said. Cut back on the exposition so Michael can SLOW DOWN.

Mitchell is still 'eh' for me, depending on how the season progresses I'll either end up liking him or not caring about him. He's a bit too much Mr Perfect Hero at the moment for me. Jury is still out.

Hello, Mrs. Shanks... have you been taking speed-talking lessons from your husband? <G> Carolyn Lam is a very different doctor from Janet. I miss Janet, but I like Carolyn already.

Still liking the General, still find the jaffa stuff dead boring. Wish we could Un-Jaffa Teal'c.

I liked the story. One of my friends watching it with me thought it was tired tripe, but then she didn't like Indiana Jones, either.

The bit with Vala burning and Daniel yelling, and then when he went and held her dead, burnt body was totally awesome. Just fantastic, excellent acting job there by both of them.

What else? Totally shallow moment here: those mideivel clothes on Daniel, whooooo boy! Woof!

I'm really loving this season SO FAR and especially Daniel and Vala. Can we keep her? Please, please!!!!

Dana Jeanne

Really, Morjana, how totally petty to send me a red square for this post. What didn't you like about it? That I enjoyed the episode or that I posted at all?

Dana Jeanne

Bobthespirit
July 23rd, 2005, 03:22 PM
I thought I'd clarify some of my comments.

First of all, I do think the second half of the episode was better than the first. The 'taking over the body' thing was good, and the visual of the burning oil travelling along the sigil was really cool.

But I do really wish the Ori were more than 'More evil aliens who say they're gods'.

And I think it was just a little too easy for Mitchell to win that swordfight. It came off like 'Anybody can just pick up a sword and easily beat this guy'.

As for my comment about 'trying to out-personality each other'...

More accurate is 'Trying to steal the spotlight from each other'. Particularly Vala, but also Daniel and Mitchell. In the early season, none of the acting performances seemed to be particularly designed to become the center of attention. Now, except for CJ, they all do. I get the feeling they're trying way too hard to sell Mitchell and Vala to the audience instead of just letting the characters speak for themselves.

I just hope that when they beat the Ori in the future, it'll be because they did something clever, and not just because they found some new bit of technology just in time. (That's what I mean by 'not a return to roots'. In early SG1, they won because they were clever. In S7 and S8, they won because they found some new piece of technology that could kill Anubis' fleet/the replicators/etc instantly. If S9 is a return to roots, they have to start winning because they're clever again.)

Dana_Jeanne
July 23rd, 2005, 03:29 PM
Did no one else find it amusing that the names of the two people that Daniel and Vala "inhabited" were Harrid and Sallis?? ;):D Okay, just me, again...sigh... :rolleyes:

Who are Harrid and Sallis?

I don't watch a lot of TV so some of the 'jokes' are waaaay over my head. Apparently there was a seseme street comment in there somewhere? I watched Kaptain Kangaroo when I was little <G>

I forgot to say how great it is seeing Dr Lee again! I've liked him ever since I first saw him in Evolution, and it's a joy to watch him when ever he pops up. I hope they keep him around! I thought it was really sweet the way Daniel put a hand on his shoulder when Dr Lee was talking about how hard he'd been working to figure something out (forget what it was).

I'm going to sit down tonight and watch both eps together. What a nice way to spend a hot, humid summer evening.

Dana Jeanne

George Costanza
July 23rd, 2005, 03:41 PM
Wow, I loved this episode! :D I really liked this one guy, he played the Ori-worshipper who came into Sallis' house where Daniel and Vala were. You know, the one guy who Daniel and Vala revealed themselves to. They have to bring him back!

Vala's death scene was amazing, probably the most "extreme" thing we've seen so far in SG-1 (I mean, someone burning to death...), I loved it... also when the Prior (he was awesome too! He needs to be recurring like that one Jaffa in Anubis' service, the one with the cocky English accent) brought Vala back from the dead was very good as well, pretty moving.

I hope the production is reading this, I'm totally digging the new direction of the show! I have to say that the way we are being introduced to this all is great, and that I now like Vala as well (hated her before).

Can't wait for Origin!

Dana_Jeanne
July 23rd, 2005, 03:42 PM
[QUOTE=Bobthespirit] First of all, I do think the second half of the episode was better than the first. The 'taking over the body' thing was good, and the visual of the burning oil travelling along the sigil was really cool.

And I think it was just a little too easy for Mitchell to win that swordfight. It came off like 'Anybody can just pick up a sword and easily beat this guy'.

I get the feeling they're trying way too hard to sell Mitchell and Vala to the audience instead of just letting the characters speak for themselves./QUOTE]

I liked the second half better,also. But then, it's "all about Daniel" for me, so it stands to reason I would :D Looking at spoilers, I was concerned that we might have to see Harrid and Sallis a lot more than we did, so I'm glad it was done the way it was. And Daniel in those breeches... :o

Someone posted that they didn't think the place where Vala was burned was something that you'd find --- I'll have to go back and find that post, as I forget exactly what she said. But, if that's the way the people there take care of heretics--their version of drowning the witch--then it makes sense that it would be there.

re what your saying about them trying too hard to sell Mitchell and Vala. I think they're trying too hard to make Mitchell into a Hero. All he did (that I could figure out anyway!) in Lost City was lead the group of fighters that helped in the fight. And crashed. And recovered. Um, so what? Like Landry said: what's his kryptonite? He's a little too perfect for me.

That said, I do like the way he doesn't "fall asleep" or shut Daniel up when Daniel's in "teaching mode." He listens, he asks questions, he acts like he genuinely wants to know. None of that "I'm stupid" act of Jack's that drove me crazy! So while I'm on the fence as to liking Mitchell or not, I do have one foot hanging on the like side :)

What exactly did Mitchell say when they were in Daniel's lab? Daniel mentions... Mirdin? and Mitchell mumbles "I have ....... Harvard and I've never heard of M..." I've replayed it over and over and I simply can't catch it.

Dana Jeanne

Dana_Jeanne
July 23rd, 2005, 03:45 PM
I hope the production is reading this, I'm totally digging the new direction of the show! I have to say that the way we are being introduced to this all is great, and that I now like Vala as well (hated her before). Can't wait for Origin!

I'm thinking I need to go back and watch Prometheus Unbound again, as I absolutely hated it, and Vala, when it aired. These two episodes have changed my mind completely about Vala, so perhaps I might like Prom.Unbd if I watched it again.

Is it friday, yet?

Dana Jeanne

Jace021903
July 23rd, 2005, 03:51 PM
I don't watch a lot of TV so some of the 'jokes' are waaaay over my head. Apparently there was a seseme street comment in there somewhere? I watched Kaptain Kangaroo when I was little <G>





Hee.

"One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song"

:D

Jace

joasia
July 23rd, 2005, 03:56 PM
Vala's death scene was amazing, probably the most "extreme" thing we've seen so far in SG-1 (I mean, someone burning to death...)They kind of did it in S1 (Fire and Water), only I'm guessing that at they had smaller FX budget back then...

Who are Harrid and Sallis?
I don't watch a lot of TV so some of the 'jokes' are waaaay over my head. Apparently there was a seseme street comment in there somewhere?My guess would be "When Harrry met Sally"... :)

Seshat
July 23rd, 2005, 04:55 PM
They kind of did it in S1 (Fire and Water), only I'm guessing that at they had smaller FX budget back then...
My guess would be "When Harrry met Sally"... :)
Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking...thus proving that I've watched far too many movies...but with the relationship between Daniel and Vala being so sarcastic and snippy I couldn't resist making the comparison. ;)

Jonzey
July 23rd, 2005, 05:12 PM
What exactly did Mitchell say when they were in Daniel's lab? Daniel mentions... Mirdin? and Mitchell mumbles "I have ....... Harvard and I've never heard of M..." I've replayed it over and over and I simply can't catch it.

Dana Jeanne
I think he said something along the lines of ''I have an uncle Marvin.... pretty sure I don't know any myrrdins (sp) though.''

ping-pong
July 23rd, 2005, 05:17 PM
I'm one of the few who likes the Jaffa eps. I think the direction they're taking this season looks very interesting and I look forward to how Teal'c will be dealing with being pulled in two different directions.

You're not the only one who likes the Jaffa episodes. I like them too.
I felt for Teal'c when he found out that his rival, Gerak, won the vote over him as head of Jaffa council. Judging from Rak'nor's comments, it's obvious a good number of the Jaffa view Teal'c as basically a 'sell-out' because of his relationship with the Tauri--specifically SG1--all those years. Teal'c obviously knows his alliance with the Tau'ri doesn't sit well with the Jaffa brothers; he mentioned that to Mitchell in Avalon Pt 1. He's definitely being faced with having to choose sides.

SGalisa
July 23rd, 2005, 05:34 PM
Ack! :eek:
I actually missed most of the 1st viewing for this ep, due to seeing a few friends I haven't seen in a while... and upon my return to the TV, I came in just after the whole burning of the stake, so to speak, scene, so I thought the ending was a bit *unusual* since too many people were complaining about precocious Vala in "Avalon, part 1".

Saw 2nd viewing...
Michael Shanks/Daniel...
he could be a great auctioneer if he was ever able to keep up with his own speech pace. :p
When he slows down his speech enough, as he did in "Threads", his voice deepens and he sounds like James Spader's "Daniel Jackson". (That's a compliment, btw!) ;)

Vala... when I finally saw the whole fire scene... that ending was almost downright creepy!
(IMO) these are worth repeating:

Originally posted by mtee1958, at post # 43:
...the burning scene was incredible. I can't imagine Daniel treating Vala the same after that -- Something like that would remain in your mind for a long time. Claudia was wonderful -- I've never thought Vala was annoying and she was definately toned down. Nothing over the top or cheesy -- her reactions after being brought back-- the vulnerability and haunted look -- wow - amazing.Having her go the full deal and back, it shook her up quite a bit, and humanized her. I think it also made Daniel more *compassionate* to her for her sake. Loved the way he just cradled her in her "death", as if he lost someone he cherished a great deal. (He seems to do that a lot...)


Originally posted by Arative, at post # 28:
I thought that this episode added a lot depth to Vala's character. When the prior or doci, what ever it was healed Vala, I saw a vulnerable person that uses the sexual inuendo, the greed, basically the facade that she's only out for herself, to hide the fact, that she is just a normal, scared person at times. It humanized her a lot more in my eyes. When she said that she felt tingly all over and that it wasn't from Daniel, just made me like the her character more than I already did because I saw that she was using her behavior as a defense mechanism.She portrays a bubbly con-artist very well. Most cons are secretly insecure, but make themself appear to everyone else as if they have it all together - that's why they're good at conning others.



Originally posted by Dana_Jeanne, at post # 7:
I LOVED IT. I've never been any good at puzzles, so I didn't get the obviousness of the two in the rooms, nor do I watch the Simpsons.Same here. I've never watched the Simpsons from Day 1. It had too much of an attitude hype coming from too many smart-mouths (with snotty, bad attitudes) where I worked at the time.

Being that I liked # 1 and # 3 Indiana Jones films, and those short lived TV adventure programs on UPN and the WB, I liked the archeology puzzle aspect (what archeological adventure doesn't usually have something of that sort in it?). But I'm not sophisticated enough to figure out puzzles as fast as Danny and Cameron had to do it.


Originally posted by Bobthespirit, at post # 3:
Okay, what the heck? Those tests look like they were designed for any reasonably intelligent thirteen year old to be able to solve them. It's good to know that the puzzle that Merlin used to guard his massive treasure trove is the same one that Lisa Simpson had trouble solving that made her doubt her intelligence. The lameness of the puzzles really hurts the episode because it breaks suspension of disbelief.I hate say this, but there still are *some* people on this planet who don't know how to to properly connect the dots between the puzzles. When the puzzle is finally resolved, it becomes an *amazing* WOW! that's cool! Maybe it's a dyslexic thing... :D

Aside from my not seeing "The Simpsons" ep mentioned, as for commenting that a 13-year old could solve this puzzle, I find it a bit short-sighted to consider Stargate's resolving of the puzzle in "Avalon," parts 1 and 2 *Lame*, especially when most 18-year old and older folks can't even count at cashiering at a grocery or department store!

I laughed (mostly in disbelief!) the first time I encountered such situations, because the cashiers with automatically computerized calculators just can't figure it out when they're given an odd numbered amount in change (different from an even numbered total that the register shows them), and then they give me that really DUMB look, like "What's this?" -they've come to rely too much on letting their computers do it for them! When I see 9 out of 10 people unable to do simple math...that's both lazy and LAME. (When I was their age, I had to cashier, and we didn't have computers to calculate for us!) ;)

TheObiJuan
July 23rd, 2005, 05:47 PM
leave it to me to miss this one... :rolleyes:

anyone know when it will air again?

majorsal
July 23rd, 2005, 05:48 PM
you know what my fave part of the ep was? mitchell fighting the hologram. he wasn't doing so well, and i respected that. and when he was getting his butt kicked and it looked like was going to give in, he flashed back to how hard he'd fought to regain his legs working. bang, he got mad (at himself) and fought back. i almost cried out 'yes!'. i did feel melancholy that it wasn't jack, though. :(

(wish the show would have put this much creativity and effort into seasons 7 and 8)


sally :)

majorsal
July 23rd, 2005, 06:46 PM
I look forward to Sam's return. I kept wondering what her comments would have been throughout the ep. She would have had a few choice words in the cave, to be sure, and been right there with Dr. Lee trying to figure out the device. I miss Amanda. I bet they did, too.



yes! ;)

(((((amanda & sam))))))


sally :D

Skydiver
July 23rd, 2005, 07:15 PM
[QUOTE=Dana_Jeanne]
re what your saying about them trying too hard to sell Mitchell and Vala. I think they're trying too hard to make Mitchell into a Hero. All he did (that I could figure out anyway!) in Lost City was lead the group of fighters that helped in the fight. And crashed. And recovered. Um, so what? Like Landry said: what's his kryptonite? He's a little too perfect for me.

/QUOTE]

with the exception of mitch lacking 'naturally curly red hair' he passes the litmus test for being a mary sue, umm, marty :)

sacrifices himself to save the 'cool kids'
admires all the 'cool kids'
all he ever wants is to join the 'cool kids'
three separate bedside visits from said 'cool kids', including the 'we owe you'
and then his medal and now him selflessly working to put the team all back together

i mean, ok, he's the new star. we get it. he's the new male lead, he's the new jack. it's not like they have to convince us to like him or he gets voted off the island. he's there to stay. stop with the hard sell. to me, they're not validating his presence, they're pushing too hard and making me wonder 'ok, so dare i wonder just what is hiding behind the wizard's curtain cause if it's too good to be true, it probably is'

stop selling him, simply write him and let us get to know him.

we're not idiots and we dont' need to be force fed something to get it

majorsal
July 23rd, 2005, 07:45 PM
I'm one of the few who likes the Jaffa eps. I think the direction they're taking this season looks very interesting and I look forward to how Teal'c will be dealing with being pulled in two different directions.

i'm looking forward to how things go for teal'c in this too. i'm especially looking forward to lou gossett jr appearing. that man's acting talents have no limits. when i found out he was going to play a jaffa, i was so thrilled. most of the jaffas are so one-dimensional, and their stilted dialog/acting doesn't help. lou will raise the bar!


sally :D

DavidNetk
July 23rd, 2005, 10:05 PM
CRAP INDEED!
ROFL! :D LMAO


These Asgards are getting funnier now! :D

Nessva
July 24th, 2005, 03:32 AM
I really liked this episode - I got really into it and the ep sped past for me. I'm loving the character of Vala. Her and Daniel's characters really complement each other. The only slightly irritating thing was another "To be continued" but that's just me being impatient and wanting to know more about the Orii already!!

LoveYouBaby
July 24th, 2005, 03:43 AM
Ooh, go Mitchell. You go kick that hologram! Lexa's character was very cool, straight-forward Doc, no messing around, to the point. I like. The General and the Doc... I wonder how big the gap is between them.

The Ancient Communication Terminal... how cool yet it looks like we just saw the an outcome of aftermath of the fall of the Ancients on another galaxy. Why would the Ori be so mean? I can't help but feel our "God" may be an Ori... ROFL! :P

I was so glad that Vala was alright, she maybe a crook but looks like she has changed her ways after a quick lesson in death.

Not as entertaining as Atlantis' "Intruder", but this is a cool story, an easy-gentle, flowing one. I'm expecting something big propping up, I think it's time we saw this evil race, the Ori.

White Knight
July 24th, 2005, 04:31 AM
CRAP INDEED!
ROFL! :D LMAO

These Asgards are getting funnier now! :DUhh...wrong show, dude.

And it was a really good episode; toning down a lot of the humour of part 1, packing in a lot of new story, and posing some questions that will probably form the backbone of Season 9.
But the best part, just like The Intruder, was the character development that we saw - mainly their reactions to the bad situations that they're finding themselves in. Mitchell with the Knight (wannabe), summoning the reserves of willpower that got him walking again. Vala's death and resurrection, and how her whole attitude changed. Daniel's reaction to Vala's death was very sad and profound; not the classic "NOOOOOO!", but just gently holding her charred body - and this considering how much affection he's shown for Vala previously. Teal'c coming back to Dakara only to find that he has lost the vote to Gerak, described as a militaristic and anti-Tau'ri opponent; from his reaction, we can tell that this won't bode well for the Jaffa or for Earth. And Landry's reaction to Dr. Lam (told ya O'Neill appointed her!); outwardly pleasant yet akward and strange. Spoiler-reading poeple will understand this better than others.
Landry wanted to know Mitchell's kryptonite; it seems we've discovered some in the whole cast for this episode.

Next episode will kick ass. No questions.

If TPTB are reading; give yourself a pat on the back and a well earned beer. And then throw the empty beer bottles at the Sci-Fi network headquarters until they agree to restore the long opening credits. You've made some outstanding television.

Jades
July 24th, 2005, 04:56 AM
If TPTB are reading; give yourself a pat on the back and a well earned beer. And then throw the empty beer bottles at the Sci-Fi network headquarters until they agree to restore the long opening credits. You've made some outstanding television.

Heh, I second that! :D

Jonzey
July 24th, 2005, 05:05 AM
So far, the Orii don't seem that evil. I mean, we know they're powerful and people worship them, but we've not yet seen their really dark side. They are kinda creepy and they do seem to have power over life and death, but I have a feeling that next week we'll see what they're really like.

Seshat
July 24th, 2005, 05:26 AM
Question: If Daniel and Vala's consciousness were inserted into Harrid and Sallis, where are Harrid and Sallis' consciousness? Suppressed, but still in their own bodies? They obviously weren't transferred into Daniel and Vala, as Vala's body back at the SGC was reacting to events in Renaissance-World. So it wasn't a body swap, so much as a body invasion? Do you think Harrid and Sallis know what's going on - that their bodies are being used against their will using 'alien mind control'? Just because Daniel can't 'sense' Harrid's mind doesn't necessarily mean that Harrid can't sense Daniel's. And just how ethical is that of the Ancients who designed the device that allows this? How is this any different from Machello? Or Lifeboat guy? And you can't say 'well, this way causes no real harm' - because we don't know that do we, really? Besides, they are still using someone's body forcibly against their will, which I take it, is still a crime in any galaxy...

Speaking of the device, there were maybe a dozen (?) 'outlets' on the machine. How is it that when the stones were inserted they connected Daniel and Vala to two people in the same place, and not two people on different planets? Was the device set so that it would ONLY project them to its sister stones? Would inserting the stones in ANY of the 'outlets' in the device on earth have connected them to the same two bodies, regardless? There are alot of 'outlets', does that mean that 12 consciousness could be sent into twelve different people at once? But only all in the same place? Or can the individual 'outlets' be set for different people on different planets?

Just wondering what is in the writers' little minds...;)

George Costanza
July 24th, 2005, 05:35 AM
They kind of did it in S1 (Fire and Water), only I'm guessing that at they had smaller FX budget back then...

You're right, but that wasn't nearly as graphic as this.

Also, I forgot to mention a few things...

The music was awesome. I loved all of it, and especially the sinister chanting. Wow. Last time music was so prominently featured was in Children of the Gods.

I liked Mitchell and Landry, great additions to the show. Mitchell is differentiating himself from O'Neill already, I like him.

The new doctor is also great, good actress. I'm glad we have a new one, because I HATED Janet, hehe.

Swordfight was good, liked the little flashbacks.

Liked Teal'c outburst to Raknor, I think this may be an interesting storyline.

I can't believe so few people have mentioned how awesome that Prior was...

Piratejenna
July 24th, 2005, 05:44 AM
A lot of interesting reviews in this thread, and I agree with a lot of the comments. Just a few extra thoughts:

I seriously, totally, absolutely HATE the short opening credits! This is no way to set up drama. It's supposed to be about building up anticipation and excitement, and you can't do that with a pathetic sparrow-fart for an overture.

TPTB are really trusting in the intelligence of the audience with the opening episodes. They are still revealing the pieces of the puzzle, dropping hints, keeping the focus on character, but in this episode, making it increasingly clear that there are big revelations to come. There's a lot of complex plotting going on here, as well as character development.

The fun and frolics in the caves is resolved fairly swiftly, and then we take a big step forward as the communication device comes into play. The Quantum leap jump into new bodies is deftly handled, so what could have been pretty confusing becomes fairly easy to accept. Meanwhile, there's a nice sense of controlled chaos back at the SGC as the new folk try to handle the situation without the safety blanket of 'been there, done that'. Dr Lam looks a good addition. I like her rather abrupt manner and the fact she's not necessarily an instantly likeable 'nice' character - there's a little bit of edge there that makes her interesting.

The visits to Jaffa-land were brief but essential (anything more would have got in the way of the story) - a lot of ground-work is laid in a very economical way. More importantly, there is a major character beat for Teal'c. The big problem for the writers is how to get Teal'c back into the centre of the story, because with the Jaffa now free, he's lost his original motivation. It wouldn't do the character justice if he simply scuttled back to the Tauri because he had failed in Jaffa politics. But in one line, we see Teal'c finding new motivation: his mission with SG-1 is, through exploration and knowledge, to find a way to move the Jaffa towards peace. He hasn't yet made the decision to go back, but he has already found his reason to do it.

Daniel and Vala are the heart and soul of this story. Daniel's motivation for using the Communication Device is obvious but nicely symbolic. Daniel is and always should be the great communicator of the show. However, I like the fact he doesn't make the decision alone. It is clear from the context that Landry and Mitchell and Lee have all given their blessing to the attempt - so its not a case of Daniel being irresponsible, but of Daniel doing his job. Vala's motivation shifts (outwardly at least) from the moment Daniel starts reading the book out loud. You can see her brain moving from the physical treasure to the idea of ancient knowledge. Or is this always what she expected? Seems to me that Vala knows more about the ancients than she originally let on...

The way the show moves towards the burning of Vala is nicely done. It starts when the Resistance leader/heretic (anyone catch his name?) comes to see them, and Daniel decides to tell him the truth. Daniel and Vala both clearly expect him to react as though they're insane, reflecting the audience's expectations. Of course this medieval peasant isn't going to believe their ridiculous story. But, surprise, he does! Truth is instantly rewarded. (The audience is being set up). Vala goes off to 'drink leaves' with the administrator's wife, we get some more slow but vital exposition, and then things start to spiral out of control. It's a shame we couldn't actually see what happened to Vala at the tea party, because when she tells it, it sounds hilarious. But there is a rather sad note hidden away here. When the administrators wife starts to suspect her, she tries to tell the truth (after all, it had just worked when Daniel did it in the previous scene). But in Vala's case, truth is a disaster, and she is about to be punished horribly.

Then, as the fire starts to flow, and the danger becomes more apparent, Daniel tells the truth again. Because its already worked before, a lot of people in the audience (the unspoiled majority) are going to assume that he will talk their way out of the problem. There's actually a moment when the Administrator turns, and you think he might stop proceedings. All this time, as the fire is starting to circle Vala, the audience expects it to turn out OK. It's only when the fire actually reaches Vala's clothes, and you hear the pain and fear in her voice, that the whole thing becomes intensely and shockingly real. This is a neat flip from comedy to tragedy.

The aftermath, when Vala is brought back to life, also helps sell the horror of that scene. Too often in Stargate, people shake off the effects of some awful trauma or injury without any sense of future consequences. I didn't feel that here. I loved Daniel's compassion (although I agree with those who say he would have done this for anyone - it's not that Vala is special). I especially loved the fact that Vala was desperately trying not to meet his eyes. When she snuggles into Daniel's shoulder, it's not for comfort - I think she's hiding from him because she doesn't want him to see her like this. Superb acting (again) from MS and CB.

I agree about the music - absolutely perfect for those final scenes.

QuiGonJohn
July 24th, 2005, 06:03 AM
I liked this one too. I can't remember, did Daniel & Vala get free from Harrid & Sallis at the end?

I wonder where all the Jaffa storyline will be going. Should be interesting.

TheCorpulent1
July 24th, 2005, 06:36 AM
Why is everyone calling the village that Harrid and Sallis live in "Renaissance world"? I thought it was closer to a medieval look.

Posherella
July 24th, 2005, 07:45 AM
Everyone's said what I think so far.

Overall, I AM liking the new season. I am not missing RDA or even AT very much yet, although I will forever miss the dynamic of the original four together.. I think this new season can reinvent the series and move it in the right direction so it can continue on.

I liked Landry right up to the point where, while Jackson and Vala are trapped in their own concious and could die (again) at any moment, he asks Dr. Lam where to put his flipping desk. I mean, there are more pressing issues to worry about! He's definitely not showing Hammond's compassion so far and I don't like it. If he's going to work with SG-1, he has to care about them and this job. Their safety should hang over him and weigh on him like a ton of bricks. What's next? Daniel will go missing and he'll mull it over during a game of golf followed by drinks and fun at his country club?

I do like the fact that Daniel tried to convince Landry over and over again that they needed to do something with the communication device and Landry didn't need to be sold, so he just kept agreeing and giving Daniel free reign. Daniel obviously isn't used to that.

Speaking of the delicious Dr. Jackson, I think he's yummy with his beard. I hope he'll keep it for a while.

I can definitely see how some find her annoying, but I love Vala and how she and Jackson play off each other all the time. I love their sexual chemistry and would be totally stoked to see Jackson try to deal with a romantic relationship while on SG-1. After all, he's not in the military so no one should have a problem with him having a relationship. I really wouldn't mind if they were handcuffed together through the whole of Season 9.

I can't stand all this Jaffa storyline - I never could. I like this show for its sci-fi aspect. The political part on Earth is okay when it's directly related to the Stargate Program, but this Jaffa stuff is so freakin' boring... does ANYONE really care about it? I'm tired of their storyline creeping into the show for the past few seasons. I have a distinct feeling that this storyline is something Christopher Judge has REALLY been pushing for and I like CJ and all, but... I just don't feel this Jaffa political crap belongs on a show about EXPLORERS OF OTHER WORLDS.

SmartFox
July 24th, 2005, 09:06 AM
The plot wasn't bad i think, but executed poorly. I was very disapointed in the temple and traps, everytime they failed and all they had to do was try again and they could succeed. Not that hard. I mean for example the pots, there were 2 options, and they succeed because they got it right on the SECOND try.

The whole fight sequence with the knight and Cameron i can let slide that he beat the highly traind knight after a few lessons years and years ago.

I almost started dancing when i saw Vala die, then i almost started crying when i saw her come back to live. Guess you cant have everything.

The Doc and the General i still havent decided on if i like them but they are defintly doing better then goodie two shoes Mr.Mitchell. Im starting not to like his personality and maybe as he starts going on missions (maybe see a few people die) he wont be Mr. Chipper any more.

Oh yea and if they plan on taking Teal'c away from his Jaffa they better have a darn good reason or i will take another step towards not watching the rest of the season 9.

sparklegem
July 24th, 2005, 09:58 AM
Question: If Daniel and Vala's consciousness were inserted into Harrid and Sallis, where are Harrid and Sallis' consciousness? Suppressed, but still in their own bodies? They obviously weren't transferred into Daniel and Vala, as Vala's body back at the SGC was reacting to events in Renaissance-World. So it wasn't a body swap, so much as a body invasion? Do you think Harrid and Sallis know what's going on - that their bodies are being used against their will using 'alien mind control'? Just because Daniel can't 'sense' Harrid's mind doesn't necessarily mean that Harrid can't sense Daniel's. And just how ethical is that of the Ancients who designed the device that allows this? How is this any different from Machello? Or Lifeboat guy? And you can't say 'well, this way causes no real harm' - because we don't know that do we, really? Besides, they are still using someone's body forcibly against their will, which I take it, is still a crime in any galaxy...


Well, perhaps the Ancients only intended it to be used by willing participants. But that was not the case here. If the hosts could sense what was going on, I can't imagine how out-of-her-mind terrified Salis was being burned at the stake. I mean, there were really two innocent people being killed, not an innocent person like Daniel said. But I don't expect him to be perfectly precise in the heat of a dire moment when people are in danger. And I know Daniel and Vala couldn't do anything about it, but as much as Daniel hates the Goa'uld and if Vala really was a host herself once, I was kind of surprised that neither (especially Daniel, because of his role as the moral conscience of SG-1) made any sort of comment about their situation and the issues of it.

dec55
July 24th, 2005, 10:28 AM
I consider this one of the best epsiodes ever. And I am extremely pleased
to see Lam showing up in the 2nd episode!!!! Loved the accuracy of the way
she handled all the medical terms and the portrayal of true medical professionalism. It was like ER meets Stargate. Lexa's portrayal was gritty,
passionate, and humorous at times. Since she is a civilain she can be as sarcastic as she wants. I love her portrayal as a young doctor with a soul of
a old seasoned one. She takes no backtalk or slacking when it comes to her job.
She can be emotional and blunt outside of her duties...but when it comes
to her patients they have her full attention. What a fantastic addition to the
cast. Adding to a great list of actors and actresses before on the show.

Lam's and Landry's relationship is going to be a interesting one. Both seem to
be causual and almost close, but there is an underlying tension between them
that I am sure will come out in following episodes. They definitely have chemistry. I know Lexa and Shanks with Christopher have chemisty....and
it looks like everyone on the show really work excellent together!!! Lexa definitely plays off Beau really brilliantly.


I also can't wait for Lam to meet Carter....it really is going to be a hoot!!!

It was great to see Lexa in normal clothes...she does look great in cotton!!!

TheCorpulent1
July 24th, 2005, 10:46 AM
I liked Landry right up to the point where, while Jackson and Vala are trapped in their own concious and could die (again) at any moment, he asks Dr. Lam where to put his flipping desk. I mean, there are more pressing issues to worry about! He's definitely not showing Hammond's compassion so far and I don't like it. If he's going to work with SG-1, he has to care about them and this job. Their safety should hang over him and weigh on him like a ton of bricks. What's next? Daniel will go missing and he'll mull it over during a game of golf followed by drinks and fun at his country club?
That didn't bother me. Think about it: You've got the safety of two members of your command at stake, but there's really nothing you can do about it personally. Meanwhile, you've just found out that your (apparently) estranged daughter has been assigned as the new lead doctor of your facility. You can't help with the problem facing your people directly, but you can awkwardly try to reconnect with your daughter when she shows up at your office. Landry obviously doesn't care about his desk that much, it was just something that happened to be on his mind right then and he tried to use it to break the ice and get his daughter talking to him.

And, for the second time, by the second episode that we saw Hammond in command of the SGC, he strongly disliked Daniel despite the fact that Daniel's wife was just kidnapped, and he wasn't too hot on Jack either for disobeying orders with the Stargate the first time around. Hammond's compassion for his people grew over time, it wasn't an instantaneous thing. Give Landry the time Hammond got to connect with the team members before jumping on him for being insensitive.

the fifth man
July 24th, 2005, 12:23 PM
That didn't bother me. Think about it: You've got the safety of two members of your command at stake, but there's really nothing you can do about it personally. Meanwhile, you've just found out that your (apparently) estranged daughter has been assigned as the new lead doctor of your facility. You can't help with the problem facing your people directly, but you can awkwardly try to reconnect with your daughter when she shows up at your office. Landry obviously doesn't care about his desk that much, it was just something that happened to be on his mind right then and he tried to use it to break the ice and get his daughter talking to him.

And, for the second time, by the second episode that we saw Hammond in command of the SGC, he strongly disliked Daniel despite the fact that Daniel's wife was just kidnapped, and he wasn't too hot on Jack either for disobeying orders with the Stargate the first time around. Hammond's compassion for his people grew over time, it wasn't an instantaneous thing. Give Landry the time Hammond got to connect with the team members before jumping on him for being insensitive.

Totally agree with you on this one. So far I'm pleased with Landry, and can't wait to see him develop over the course of this season. I've always liked Beau Bridges, and definitely will give him a chance. He does have some big shoes to fill though ( Hammond ).

TheCorpulent1
July 24th, 2005, 12:53 PM
True, Hammond was a very stable "rock" for the show to build around for much of its existence. Hell, the one time he acted out of character and suddenly quit the SGC, there was a whole episode dedicated to explaining it and it made him look even more noble. :D Landry's certainly different, but I've liked the differences so far. As opposed to Hammond, who basically sat back and let the team do its thing with utmost trust in their abilities, Landry's new to the fold and is willing to get into a lot of people's faces to establish his strength at the top of the chain of command and run the SGC to the best of his ability. If he still seems strange, well, I'd chalk it up to two major factors:

1) The SGC, for all intents and purposes, has nothing to do anymore. The Replicators and Goa'uld are gone, and with them went the imminent threat to Earth. Even if there were still an imminent threat to Earth, however, we've come a long way and fulfilled the standing orders of the SGC admirably: We've got man-made interstellar battle-cruisers capable of intergalactic travel in just under 3 weeks (thanks in large part to the Asgard), we've got a fleet of highly advanced space/planetside fighter craft in the F302s, we've got a good measure of knowledge regarding the Ancients thanks to Daniel and Atlantis, etc. Earth is basically living large at the moment.

2) There IS no SG-1. There's Mitchell with a loose agreement of cooperation from Teal'c and Daniel, and there's Vala, the catalyst for the events taking place at the moment who's become a bit of a tag-along to Daniel's great, Ancient adventure. These people are not a team; thus, Landry doesn't treat them as such. He treats Vala as a dishonest vagrant, Mitchell as the new kid who's still got a lot to prove, Daniel as the scientist who needs to provide evidence rather than speculations, and Teal'c as... uh, actually, there hasn't really been any interaction between Landry and Teal'c, has there? Anyway, the new dynamic brings out new qualities in all of them, meaning they're all still adjusting and getting used to things. Landry feels no need to really acquaint himself with Daniel or Teal'c, since they've already expressed their desire to leave the SGC.

the fifth man
July 24th, 2005, 01:03 PM
Great post. Gotta agree. That's why I can't wait to see this season unfold. See the new people settle into their roles, how they deal in pressure situations. It truly is like watching a brand new show in many respects. Should be great as well to see new bonds develop. It's my hope that the new new sg-1 will care for each other just as much as the old sg-1.

AGateFan
July 24th, 2005, 01:05 PM
1) The SGC, for all intents and purposes, has nothing to do anymore. The Replicators and Goa'uld are gone, and with them went the imminent threat to Earth. Even if there were still an imminent threat to Earth, however, we've come a long way and fulfilled the standing orders of the SGC admirably: We've got man-made interstellar battle-cruisers capable of intergalactic travel in just under 3 weeks (thanks in large part to the Asgard), we've got a fleet of highly advanced space/planetside fighter craft in the F302s, we've got a good measure of knowledge regarding the Ancients thanks to Daniel and Atlantis, etc. Earth is basically living large at the moment.


I want to bask in the glow of this statement for a few minutes.... We have come a long way since the "we have a number of .... shuttles" line in THE SERPENT'S LAIR havent we.

Aaahhhhh battle-cuisers.....

the fifth man
July 24th, 2005, 01:06 PM
A very long way. Thats why I love the show so much. Look where these characters and events have led us.

TheCorpulent1
July 24th, 2005, 01:09 PM
Yeah, "Lost City" really drove that home for me. Just two seasons earlier, the SGC's greatest fear was a direct assault on Earth because they had nothing to defend it with. Then "Lost City" rolls around, the worst-case scenario finally happens, and the Prometheus and F302 fleet come out with guns a-blazin'. What an awesome moment. :D

the fifth man
July 24th, 2005, 01:23 PM
Truly amazing how the show has progressed. That's why I can't wait to see where it goes now. Very exciting times, hopefully.

greytop
July 24th, 2005, 03:26 PM
This one was okay. Very good in the beginning, enjoyed the sword fight. Got slow afterward.

PsychoPenguin
July 24th, 2005, 05:05 PM
This one was okay. Very good in the beginning, enjoyed the sword fight. Got slow afterward.

Yes, it did, and I've been trying to figure out why that was.

I think it's because the focus shifted to Daniel and Vala, and to be honest, despite the sudden show of vulnerability, I'm still having a hard time warming up to her. As a former Scaper, I watched CB play one of my all-time favorite characters in Sci-fi: a woman who was an equal to the men around her in every way, strong, confident, intelligent, and moral in her own individual way. Vala, OTOH, has been set up to be looked down upon by the other characters. She may be clever and funny, but she's also self-centered and immoral and in many ways, even emotionally immature. Now, I can see where TPTB are going with her. The loving example of a "good man"--i.e. Daniel Jackson--is going to "save" her and cause her to reconsider her impure motives. To my mind, this makes her little more than the old "Hooker with a Heart of Gold" cliche, and a sad comment on female characters in general.

It's just such a comedown to me for CB. She's a great actress and she can pull off just about anything, but I would have loved to see her doing a more intelligently written, positive female role.

Granted, "Atlantis" hasn't done much better in serving up female characters, at least not as far as season one was concerned. Both Teyla and Weir were one-note cliches (How do I do the d*** accent?) themselves. But at least I have hope for Weir now. This last ep of "Atlantis" developed her more than the entire last year did.

Anyhow, although I can't say I'll stick with "SG1" until Sam Carter comes back, (I'm an Atlantean, in case you couldn't tell...) I'd have to say that if someone asked me which one of the characters should stick around, I'd have to select SC. She sounds like everything Aeryn used to be. More importantly, she's a positive representation of a military woman, something many of my active duty friends love to see.

So, "Avalon Mark Two"...better than "Mark One," but still containing pacing and plot problems (sorry, the swordfight was uber-cheesy) and not endearing me to the characters. We'll see how "Mark Three" does, and if that fails, maybe I'll give things another try once "Beachhead" airs. :)

majorsal
July 24th, 2005, 06:02 PM
I also can't wait for Lam to meet Carter....it really is going to be a hoot!!!



me too! :D

spoilers for s9 future ep
i've heard that sam and lam become friends. this will be nice, and i hope it touches upon sam missing janet too.


sally :)

majorsal
July 24th, 2005, 06:05 PM
Totally agree with you on this one. So far I'm pleased with Landry, and can't wait to see him develop over the course of this season. I've always liked Beau Bridges, and definitely will give him a chance. He does have some big shoes to fill though ( Hammond ).

i'm actually liking the writers making landry and lam brusque. it'll be interesting over the course of time to see that snark soften. and talk about like father, like daughter! :p


sally :)

majorsal
July 24th, 2005, 07:01 PM
It's just such a comedown to me for CB. She's a great actress and she can pull off just about anything, but I would have loved to see her doing a more intelligently written, positive female role.

(snip)

Anyhow, although I can't say I'll stick with "SG1" until Sam Carter comes back, (I'm an Atlantean, in case you couldn't tell...) I'd have to say that if someone asked me which one of the characters should stick around, I'd have to select SC. She sounds like everything Aeryn used to be. More importantly, she's a positive representation of a military woman, something many of my active duty friends love to see.



i'm going a bit off topic here, but i really want to reply to your above statements.

i'm a HUGE sam/amanda fan, and you made me think of how i'd be feeling if amanda was playing a vala-type character in another show. and i think i'd feel *exactly* like you. vala is fun, funny, and we're just now seeing a heart under that shield, but.... i'm not sure i'd want to see amanda play a character like this. well, i really don't know how vala is going to turn out, and maybe if vala was a permanent character that we were allowed to see grow 'through time'.... but i still think i'd prefer her in something more respectable and likeable. (yes, i live through sam and am *so* glad she's the way she is :D)

sorry about derailing the topic so much.


sally :)

Liebestraume
July 24th, 2005, 07:06 PM
Now, I can see where TPTB are going with her. The loving example of a "good man"--i.e. Daniel Jackson--is going to "save" her and cause her to reconsider her impure motives.Let's hope that's not where they are going, because that'd just be boring.

I admit Vala is hard character to like -- she can be loud and obnoxious, and certainly not Miss Goodie-Two-Shoes. She is definitely self-centered, perhaps morally ambigious, but I have yet seen her done anything immoral. Given the backstory, she could even turn out to be an interesting character. Guess we'll see.

Perhaps I'm partial to Vala because she reminds me of Vash (of Star Trek: TNG. For those who don't follow that show, this is a peripheral character who was the some-time love interest of Captain Picard, the ultimate Renaissance Man -- and not even he could "reform" her.) I found her to be one of the most resourceful, strong, and independent women on that show.

Bobthespirit
July 24th, 2005, 07:34 PM
I'll be the first to admit that a lot of my distaste for this plotline is based on assumptions and predictions...

But I am *sure* that fighting the Ori will involve begging some higher power (Asgard, Ascendeds, etc) for help or looking for some technology left behind by a higher power.

And if I'm right, I *really* hate that kind of plotline resolution. It's lazy and requires no creativity. I want them to win because they outfought, outsmarted, and outwilled the enemy. With an ascended being, it doesn't look like that's possible, and 'beg the higher power' will be their only choice. Which I find boring as hell.

As for Mitchell....well, I think they're trying to portray him as a man who lives on willpower and guts. A regular guy with no special distinction or intelligence who can just gut it out because of his strength of human spirit. And..that's what they're selling too hard with him.

--

Edit: Wow..I didn't think of the Vash connection, but now that you bring it up. Yes, she is EXACTLY like Vash. She IS Vash, but less subtle about her sexuality toward a main character. The perrenial opportunist.

DetriusXii
July 24th, 2005, 09:52 PM
But I am *sure* that fighting the Ori will involve begging some higher power (Asgard, Ascendeds, etc) for help or looking for some technology left behind by a higher power.

And if I'm right, I *really* hate that kind of plotline resolution. It's lazy and requires no creativity. I want them to win because they outfought, outsmarted, and outwilled the enemy. With an ascended being, it doesn't look like that's possible, and 'beg the higher power' will be their only choice. Which I find boring as hell.

I agree. After watching the resolution to the season finale of Dr. Who where they pulled the same Deus Ex Machina stunt, it left me wondering why none of Timelords used the awesome power that Rose used.

The first season of SG-1 was exciting because it was an organized human military versus an incompetent but technology advanced alien race. The season 7 finale relied on an Ancient outpost. The season 8 premiere relied on Ancient disruptor technology. Reckoning relied on an Ancient weapon of mass destruction/creation. The season 8 finale relied on an Ancient timeship. Season 8 has used the Ancient crutch for too many of its key episodes to resolve the conflict or start the story.

Personally, for a season 9 finale, I'd like to see Earth humans with the help of the Jaffa raiding an Ori vessel to secure some defensive tech or offensive tech that helps fight ascended beings. SGC should take advantage of Ori overconfidence and the Stargate universe definately needs some technology that counters ascension. Ascended beings are too powerful in that they can summon incredible destructive energy without anywhere at anytime. And it doesn't seem like every ascended race has the same non-interference rules.

Oma Desala
July 24th, 2005, 09:53 PM
I am very pleased with first 2 new installments of Stargate SG-1 Season 9. I am very curious to find out more about the Orii. They brought Vala back to life. I've not seen anyone do that before. I want to know why someone evil, would bring someone back to life. Maybe to see them die again? :)

rhoboat
July 24th, 2005, 10:30 PM
Hmm, enjoyed the episode, but not as much as last week's. The new doctor seems to have more personality than Brightman. The biggest thing I noticed this episode was the music. Love the choral music - just makes it that much more dramatic. (And also makes me miss the Atlantis opening theme that much more...)

White Knight
July 25th, 2005, 01:38 AM
Its going to be interesting how our old faithfuls - Carter, Daniel and Teal'c - react to Dr Lam, 'Ol' Doc' Fraiser's replacement, especially considering that she seems very good at her job. (also can't wait to see what happens when Landry and O'Neill see each other again - O'Neill will have hell to pay!).

Speaking of Landry; how many people remember watching Children of the Gods and thinking 'What a jerk' about Hammond? I know I did. Bagging out poor MacGyver like that (little did he know, in his car rested a small device made from metal spoons, a rubber band and an alarm clock...) Yet after all this time, we all really miss Hammond. It'll take some time to warm up the General Landry, but give it a year and you'll be cheering for him when he busts down some arrogant SOB for dissing SG-1.

And, before I go, I couldn't help but respond to this;


1) The SGC, for all intents and purposes, has nothing to do anymore. The Replicators and Goa'uld are gone, and with them went the imminent threat to Earth. Even if there were still an imminent threat to Earth, however, we've come a long way and fulfilled the standing orders of the SGC admirably: We've got man-made interstellar battle-cruisers capable of intergalactic travel in just under 3 weeks (thanks in large part to the Asgard), we've got a fleet of highly advanced space/planetside fighter craft in the F302s, we've got a good measure of knowledge regarding the Ancients thanks to Daniel and Atlantis, etc. Earth is basically living large at the moment.I want to bask in the glow of this statement for a few minutes.... We have come a long way since the "we have a number of .... shuttles" line in THE SERPENT'S LAIR havent we.

Aaahhhhh battle-cuisers.....
Lets all say it again: battle-cruisers. "We've got a number of...BATTLECRUISERS! TAKE THIS!!!" (At which point we'll start beaming nuclear weapons onto whoever it is that we're yelling at)

WhatFateAlmondRoca
July 25th, 2005, 05:48 AM
I am very pleased with first 2 new installments of Stargate SG-1 Season 9. I am very curious to find out more about the Orii. They brought Vala back to life. I've not seen anyone do that before. I want to know why someone evil, would bring someone back to life. Maybe to see them die again? :)

I'm interested to see what being burned to death and brought back to life does to her character! It HAS to change her somehow????

manybleemsago
July 25th, 2005, 06:04 AM
Guys, help me. I'm still not over "Vala Flambe" :(

Lida
July 25th, 2005, 06:11 AM
The plot wasn't bad i think, but executed poorly. I was very disapointed in the temple and traps, everytime they failed and all they had to do was try again and they could succeed. Not that hard. I mean for example the pots, there were 2 options, and they succeed because they got it right on the SECOND try.

The whole fight sequence with the knight and Cameron i can let slide that he beat the highly traind knight after a few lessons years and years ago.

I almost started dancing when i saw Vala die, then i almost started crying when i saw her come back to live. Guess you cant have everything.

The Doc and the General i still havent decided on if i like them but they are defintly doing better then goodie two shoes Mr.Mitchell. Im starting not to like his personality and maybe as he starts going on missions (maybe see a few people die) he wont be Mr. Chipper any more.

Oh yea and if they plan on taking Teal'c away from his Jaffa they better have a darn good reason or i will take another step towards not watching the rest of the season 9.


As for your assessment of Avalon, Part 2. It is based purely on your own likes and dislikes of characters, not the actual execution of the storyline.

Was the cave sequence a bit "lame" (you like that word, right?)? Yes, it was. However, as the story continued to play out, it became much more believeable.

The fight sequence? Ever hear of over-compensation? That occurs when someone, who was an over achiever to start with, is sidelined by injury, or some other problem. They then over-compensate for the loss, or perceived loss, but becoming "better", at either their former occupation or hobby or a new one. Just look at Lance Armstrong. :) So Mitchell beating the knight is entirely believable. Perhaps if you had understood why the tptb included the flashback about his struggle and determination to walk again, after being told, he probably would NEVER walk again, would have allowed you to better understand how he defeated the knight. :D

General Landry is doing a great job as the commander of the SGC, but it's only been 2 episodes, so I think his "tough" stance will soften a bit. His daughter, no comment. :(

As for Mitchell being a "goody two shoes"? ROFL Guess some people just never grow up. He is not being "chipper" and he has seen his share of death, including his own close brush with death. Why don't you like BB, because the character of Cameron Mitchell is not who you are attacking, is it? Be honest.
And the same for Claudia Black/Vala......CB is a great actress, and in Avalon, Part 2, added depth to her character. Too bad you are judging 2 very accomplished actors, by previous roles. :rolleyes:

Kalliope
July 25th, 2005, 06:57 AM
Being sort of a newbie to SG-1 (I admit not to see seasons 1-6 almost at all, only season 7 and one episode of season 8), I must say that I enjoy watching season 9 very much. Avalon pt. 1 was a lot of fun, Avalon 2 added much more drama and darkness to the picture, great job R.C.C!!! :) This episode definitely added depth to Claudia Black's character and for the first time we were seeing "real" Vala for a while, vulnerable woman desperately trying not to meet Daniel's eyes so he can't see her tears the moment after she was brought back to life... It's definitely going to change her a little bit, we'll see... Deep bow towards the composer, the music was fantastic in this episode.

WhatFateAlmondRoca
July 25th, 2005, 07:07 AM
The fight sequence? Ever hear of over-compensation? That occurs when someone, who was an over achiever to start with, is sidelined by injury, or some other problem. They then over-compensate for the loss, or perceived loss, but becoming "better", at either their former occupation or hobby or a new one. Just look at Lance Armstrong. :) So Mitchell beating the knight is entirely believable. Perhaps if you had understood why the tptb included the flashback about his struggle and determination to walk again, after being told, he probably would NEVER walk again, would have allowed you to better understand how he defeated the knight. :D

hmmmm.....possibly. Cam states he took fencing in college, which he flunked. Fencing is a FAR cry from broadsword, which is what was used in the fight sequence. Over-compensation possibly, but without any practice since flunking an unrelated class in college???? dunno

my beef with the fight scene is that the technique seemed bad (this is just my unexpert opinion). Noone hires broadsword coaches for fight scenes any more. I just watched it again and they are both stabbing at air and madly blocking parries/thrusts that are't going to hit their mark. One of the basics of any sword fighting (but especially broadsword) is that ya just don't waste your energy doing that. Plus, the footwork was abysmal. From this respect I can see why Cam beat the knight, but found it Pythonesque that the knight who is supposed to be defending something can't fight worth beans (its a flesh wound, I'll bite your knee off, you're a loony, etc. et al. yadda yadda).

Anyway, after the fight scene the ep picked up for me. I have to go back and watch it again before commenting further, but I'm optimistic about Season 9. (yes, corp1, you've brought me over from the Dark Side haha).

I'm with you on Cam, though, Lida, I like him so far and am looking forward to seeing how they develop his character.

the Fifth Race
July 25th, 2005, 07:19 AM
I loved Avalon part II, the whole burning Vala sequence was brutal and hard to watch, but riveting none the less. A very interesting episode, I'm looking forward to part III.

Is Daniel the master of SG now or what!?. The show will remain great as long as he is a part of the show!.

kryon22
July 25th, 2005, 07:31 AM
Everyone's said what I think so far.


I can't stand all this Jaffa storyline - I never could. I like this show for its sci-fi aspect. The political part on Earth is okay when it's directly related to the Stargate Program, but this Jaffa stuff is so freakin' boring... does ANYONE really care about it? I'm tired of their storyline creeping into the show for the past few seasons. I have a distinct feeling that this storyline is something Christopher Judge has REALLY been pushing for and I like CJ and all, but... I just don't feel this Jaffa political crap belongs on a show about EXPLORERS OF OTHER WORLDS.

I'm not always a big fan of the jaffa arc, but there is a very big need for it to be present in this season. Even if it's not going to be as big as the Ancients, it's big because of the way the Goa'uld and jaffa have been so integral in the Milky Way. Having just been deposed as a collective whole, the Goa'uld have followers that have to go somewhere. Not including them in the show where one of your principal members happen to be a jaffa would be a disservice to that arc and that character. Not to mention that Earth is also a fledgling planet that is rising to prominence in the interstellar sense as well. We're bound to bump into jaffa at every turn and corner now. Given that we are still vulnerable in some ways to external planetary offensive, having the jaffa as an ally rather than an enemy is a major theme that needs to be explored. Otherwise a lot of the other episodes might seem out of context with the larger universe that Earth inhabits. You can't just imagine away the budding jaffa nation into oblivion (like the way TPTB did with Jonas) and not have some sense of disjointed dislocation creep into the show. That doesn't mean that it has to dominate every episode, but like with most arcs in stargate, they're interwoven together to be more cohesive (most of the time anyway).

But that's just my take on it... :)

DarkQuee1
July 25th, 2005, 07:45 AM
Okay, what the heck? Those tests look like they were designed for any reasonably intelligent thirteen year old to be able to solve them. It's good to know that the puzzle that Merlin used to guard his massive treasure trove is the same one that Lisa Simpson had trouble solving that made her doubt her intelligence. The lameness of the puzzles really hurts the episode because it breaks suspension of disbelief.


Someone who posts on a list I'm on wrote that the same puzzle had been given to her 5-year old at his school--and it took him 3 minutes to solve! TPTB have forgotten for a while now how to do complicated and clever, and it doesn't look any better so far in season 9 (as another example: the Mitchell-looks-for-a-new-team bit in ep 1 was basically a repeat of their Get in the Gate promo, and it made the members of what is supposedly an elite base look like idiots). The spoilers don't show the show becoming any more original down the road.

WhatFateAlmondRoca
July 25th, 2005, 07:46 AM
Is Daniel the master of SG now or what!?. The show will remain great as long as he is a part of the show!.

I like Daniel too - I agree with other posters that it would be helpful if they wouldn't rush him through his lines so much!!!! I really appreciated that in Part 2 they actually let him finish a sentence without being interrupted by Vala.

Go Daniel!

WhatFateAlmondRoca
July 25th, 2005, 07:57 AM
This episode definitely added depth to Claudia Black's character and for the first time we were seeing "real" Vala for a while, vulnerable woman desperately trying not to meet Daniel's eyes so he can't see her tears the moment after she was brought back to life... It's definitely going to change her a little bit, we'll see... Deep bow towards the composer, the music was fantastic in this episode.

This was my hopeful take on her also, from the minute she walked thru the Stargate in Pt. 1. Coming back from death has to change her, I think. And as a musician I agree about the music - kudos on the score!!! OT confession: when I play I try to sneak in lines from the Stargate music, so I'm extra excited about the music.

Lida
July 25th, 2005, 08:00 AM
hmmmm.....possibly. Cam states he took fencing in college, which he flunked. Fencing is a FAR cry from broadsword, which is what was used in the fight sequence. Over-compensation possibly, but without any practice since flunking an unrelated class in college???? dunno

my beef with the fight scene is that the technique seemed bad (this is just my unexpert opinion). Noone hires broadsword coaches for fight scenes any more. I just watched it again and they are both stabbing at air and madly blocking parries/thrusts that are't going to hit their mark. One of the basics of any sword fighting (but especially broadsword) is that ya just don't waste your energy doing that. Plus, the footwork was abysmal. From this respect I can see why Cam beat the knight, but found it Pythonesque that the knight who is supposed to be defending something can't fight worth beans (its a flesh wound, I'll bite your knee off, you're a loony, etc. et al. yadda yadda).

Anyway, after the fight scene the ep picked up for me. I have to go back and watch it again before commenting further, but I'm optimistic about Season 9. (yes, corp1, you've brought me over from the Dark Side haha).

I'm with you on Cam, though, Lida, I like him so far and am looking forward to seeing how they develop his character.

Gee, I didn't know they still taught broad sword fighting? Still a call for it? :D

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Fencing is one thing, but the technique in broad sword fighting was really very simple, kill your opponent, before he slashes or hacks you to bits. :p

And you've been brought over from the Darkside.....I'm impressed. May the Force stay with you! ;)

ChillinTheMost
July 25th, 2005, 08:04 AM
Still loving this show, still anxious for the next episode!

About the fight scene... Someone smarter than me explained it this way:
The ancients could care less whether you can out-sword fight a knight. It was all about determination and spirit. In the beginning, the HoloKnight is programmed to fight just one notch higher than the person it is fighting. The purpose is to wear down the opponent and bring him/her to the brink of defeat. It is what the opponent does at that point that is important. If they escape to the rings, than they have failed. If they find, within themselves, the courage and resolve to get back up and fight, then they will win. At this point, HoloKnight fights one notch below the opponent, maybe starting at an equal level to see if the opponent's resolve holds, but allowing the true in spirit to eventually win.
It had nothing to do with whether or not you can hold a sword correctly, but whether you will keep fighting.
I thought this was an excellent analysis and I agree wholeheartedly.

Someone said that the sword work and foot work wasn't correct. This is also explained by the theory above. Mitchell didn't know how to fight with a broadsword, so why would he be fighting correctly? And the knight is only programmed to stay one-step ahead, so he isn't going to be showing off any clever moves, since Mitchell didn't know any. Put in this context, it make sense that no experts were called on the set to get the moves right.

WhatFateAlmondRoca
July 25th, 2005, 08:05 AM
Guys, help me. I'm still not over "Vala Flambe" :(

Its okay, its okay, she lived - how was that? ;)

That scene was quite dramatic! But I sure liked Daniel's response when he thought she was gone - the dynamic of that relationship has got to change after that. Hang on, only - well lots - of hours left till part 3. Its okay, its okay...

Jace021903
July 25th, 2005, 08:13 AM
Regarding the sword fight...

It seems as though the technology was adapted to the person trying to use it--for example, no one else could use the sword but Mitchell because he touched it first.

What if the level of difficulty of the sword fight is based on the individual's abilities--Cameron was pushed to his limit and still able to win, but someone with more ability would have to fight at a higher level of difficulty.

I also agree with the poster who said that the test was not about skill but about not giving up. Cam passed because he didn't give up when he was nearly defeated.



That's my story anyway. :D

Regarding Vala's body being too hot for Daniel to be able to touch...

Obviously it wasn't or Daniel wouldn't have touched her. If the scary guy could get rid of the fire, I have no problem believing he could get rid of the heat from the fire as well.


Jace

Bobthespirit
July 25th, 2005, 08:30 AM
I actually like the jaffa arc.

I think I'm in the minority in that I've always liked 'subtle political wrangling' episodes.

Like, I really liked Weir's negotiation with the gu'ald in New Order and all the bluff tactics she had to use to prevent the gu'ald from testing their defenses.

I am quite interested to see how this 'Militarized jaffa' arc plays out. But it is a bit strange how Teal'c still works with SG1 after the gu'ald have been defeated. Maybe this jerk who got elected is going to somehow force him to go back to the Tari?

But I still want an explanation as to why Vala died in real life when Sallis burned up. And don't give me that Matrix 'Mind and body connection' crap. They only made that up so it was possible to die at all. I want a real reason.

akimbo
July 25th, 2005, 09:07 AM
First time post, though I've been lurking for about a year.

I had to weigh in a little about the sword fight. I will say that I don't know much about the broadsword, but I do know it's two-handed slashing technique is totally different than the one-handed approach used with the epee or foil traditionally in fencing.

So my first thought is to cut Cam some slack on his footwork or strategy (plus college was a little ways back for the Lt. Col. to just snap back into expert fencing footwork). Actually, you'd probably find Mitchell's outright adeptness the more implausible action.

Anyway, I liked the way that the action was shot. I thought it very good quality, especially on a TV budget. It seemed like it had more flow to it, with longer pieces of action that were not played exclusively in cuts. The fight told a story with Mitchell getting the crap kicked out of him while he just tried to defend and not get sliced up.

As the fight continues, the right-handed Mitchell took a blow to his dominant hand and continued his defense solely with his left hand. That's got to be difficult with a broadsword that is meant to be wielded with two hands. The moves were different, the flow was different and he was obviously still losing.

So the flashback made sense to me in the "fight or flee", "never give up, never surrender" sense. A little "Rockyesque" I'll grant you, but still good character stuff.

The push off from the flashback even matched the flashback in the fight scene.

To me they obviously took great care to do it well.

Just my .02

TINemo
July 25th, 2005, 09:23 AM
In Avalon 1, Vala slaps a bracelet on Daniel and one on herself(any scapers recognize similarities with I Yensch,You Yensch?) that bind them so they collapse if seperated by any distance and kill if one dies. This, then is the rationale for why Vala and Daniel pair off to search for treasure and why they are the ones to test the ancient *communicator* device, So far, so good,

But then Vala(in the body of a woman in a different galaxy) is burned at the stake. Why doesn't Daniel die? Secondly Vala and Daniel, in their own bodies, are in the med lab at Cheyenne. Vala codes as her other galaxy person dies, but Daniel doesn't die there either???? Thirdly, as she dies at the stake, the bracelet opens and falls off(so that's the answer to the first two questions????) but when she is revitalized by the blind night of the Orii, they don't show her picking up or putting back the bracelt. So now what???????

This is sort of an interesting premise(though it's been done before) but it seems to have inconsistencies--or am I missing something?????

the_cadpig
July 25th, 2005, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by Bobthespirit
But I still want an explanation as to why Vala died in real life when Sallis burned up. And don't give me that Matrix 'Mind and body connection' crap. They only made that up so it was possible to die at all. I want a real reason.


That 'mind and body connection crap' pre-dates The Matrix by a fair bit. It is actually a well studied notion that the body responds to events experienced in dream states. And there is the theory that 'if you die in a dream, you can die in life' which may have some merit. I think it's plausible that if the events occuring are horrific enough, one could have a coronary or seizure that could kill them. Who knows. Anyone unfortunate enough to die this way ain't talkin' :) This concept has been explored in other science fiction before. Most notably in a classic Twilight Zone episode and the movie Dreamscape back in the 80's. There are more instances I'm sure, but those are the ones that come readily to mind.

Dr. Lam did say that Daniel and Vala appeared to be in some sort of sleep state, an "induced dreamlike condition'. And from the REM shown it was obvious that their minds were quite active in that state. And, yes, the body is an extension of the mind. It filters our perceptions and makes us react. Who hasn't dreamt of falling and jerked themselves out of sleep?

Vala was burned alive. A horrible, horrible way to die. Doesn't surprise me at all that her body responded negatively to that percieved stimulus and coded.

Qasim
July 25th, 2005, 09:30 AM
They are only designed to kill them if they separate not if the other dies

The Bracelet probably goes back on automatically or they abandon it

TINemo
July 25th, 2005, 09:34 AM
Nope. In Avalon one, Daniel says. * So if I kill her, I die?* and despite hm wanting to(kill her that is) he is told that indeed it will. So he just has to go along with the premise.

Kalinda
July 25th, 2005, 09:47 AM
Okay, Well..

Maybe it takes a bit to kick in; like, Vala was only gone for a couple minutes or so before the guy showed up and brought her back.

Plus, in Avalon 1, when Vala and Daniel are seperated (Vala ends up in a cell and Daniel goes to see Dr. Lee), the two of them don't immediately pass out, it takes a bit to kick in.

Teal'c did say if they were seperated for too long they would both become ill and die, so it probably works the same way with one of them dying, too.

Also, the bracelet never falls off, Daniel removes the chains that held Vala to the alter as he holds her burnt body, but I don't recall ever seeing the binding bracelet come off her wrist in the science lab... unless I missed it, but I don't think so.

DarkQuee1
July 25th, 2005, 10:04 AM
I'm still having major problems with Lam (and the Lam/Landry connection). (1) There's no way that a civilian would be made CMO on a military base. Yes, Dr. Lee and other scientists are civilians, but they do not possess the authority to remove the base commander (and any other member of the base) from command, as the CMO does. The military would never put that type of control over the general in the hands of a civilian.

(2) So, Jack picked her for the position? Knowing her relationship to Landry? What, did he change his name to Mary Worth? He decides to use the SGC as family counseling to reconcile them? When any problems between them might threaten to stability of the base (remember that "removing from command" thing? Among other problems it causes.)?

(3) With the relationship between them, this situation--her being stationed on this base--would never be permitted to exist in real life. The general is her direct superior and does her evals (or, at least, has major input into them); she can, as we've said, remove him from command. Not to mention the trouble it would cause among the base personnel when it becomes common knowledge.

Ohper
July 25th, 2005, 11:41 AM
Teal'c did say if they were seperated for too long they would both become ill and die, so it probably works the same way with one of them dying, too.

Bingo!

WhatFateAlmondRoca
July 25th, 2005, 11:53 AM
It had nothing to do with whether or not you can hold a sword correctly, but whether you will keep fighting.
I thought this was an excellent analysis and I agree wholeheartedly.

Thank you thank you thank you - this is something I can sink my brain into. I buy this. It reminds me of Thor's Chariot when they are crossing that chasm - that was about self-sacrifice not about completing the task.


Someone said that the sword work and foot work wasn't correct. This is also explained by the theory above. Mitchell didn't know how to fight with a broadsword, so why would he be fighting correctly? And the knight is only programmed to stay one-step ahead, so he isn't going to be showing off any clever moves, since Mitchell didn't know any. Put in this context, it make sense that no experts were called on the set to get the moves right.

Yeah, but its painful when you've studied something to see it totally hackneyed in your favorite TV show.....you are right though, that's my personal deal. And you've explained it nicely. When writers ask you to suspend your disbelief they should have a compelling enough reason to do so. I think some of us felt him winning at the end was unbelievable (indcluding me) but I see the light! And I think it DID achieve the goal of highlighting Cam's dogget stubbornness.

Okay, LIDA, I'm even more from the Dark Side..... :p

ChillinTheMost
July 25th, 2005, 12:01 PM
...Yeah, but its painful when you've studied something to see it totally hackneyed in your favorite TV show.....
I totally understand this feeling. I play volleyball and movies/television NEVER get that right. Fortunately, there aren't many volleyball scenes in anything I watch. :D

I'm glad the swordfight theory helped. It seemed ridiculous to me, too, that Mitchell could beat the knight until I looked upon it as another test, not that the HoloKnight was a "guard of the treasure", per se.

WhatFateAlmondRoca
July 25th, 2005, 12:11 PM
Like, I really liked Weir's negotiation with the gu'ald in New Order and all the bluff tactics she had to use to prevent the gu'ald from testing their defenses.

I agree - I had a lot of respect for her after that.


I am quite interested to see how this 'Militarized jaffa' arc plays out. But it is a bit strange how Teal'c still works with SG1 after the gu'ald have been defeated. Maybe this jerk who got elected is going to somehow force him to go back to the Tari?

Could be could be....I too am looking forward to seeing that play out, although I'm kinda with other posters who have said they don't want entire episodes dedicated to Jaffa Nation stuff. Not when there's so much new stuff at the SGC to explain....characters to develop, new enemies to whoop, etc. I'm curious as to why he postulates that Ancient technology/knowledge is going to help unify the Jaffa....and thus justify the continued involvement with Tau'ri.

P.S. I like your name - I should have called myself "BobtheWraith" haha. Except I'm a chick....oh well :)

ShardsofGlass
July 25th, 2005, 12:14 PM
About the sword fighting, I think it would look worse, meaning more unbelievable, if Mitchell had actually known how to handle a sword! I'm sure he never got training in that kind of thing and was just reacting to the moment, figuring it out as he went along. The fencing thing was more of a joke to me, probably the closet thing in his mind to what was going on.

Seshat
July 25th, 2005, 12:26 PM
Regarding Vala's body being too hot for Daniel to be able to touch...

Obviously it wasn't or Daniel wouldn't have touched her. If the scary guy could get rid of the fire, I have no problem believing he could get rid of the heat from the fire as well.

Sorry, not buying it. She was burnt to a crisp before his eyes and there was no way Daniel could have known she wasn't still toasty. If you look closely you can see her body was still smoking after scary guy did his magic! :S Yet Daniel showed not the least hesitation in touching her immediately. I think a much more normal reaction would have been to be at least a bit hesitant.

Yes, I know, why am I looking for normalcy...? ;)

TheCorpulent1
July 25th, 2005, 12:37 PM
If you put out that much fire all at once, there's bound to be some smoke hanging in the air. That doesn't necessarily mean that Vala's body was still hot. I didn't notice any smoke actually coming off of her, but I'll admit I may have missed it because I wasn't really looking for it.

Anyway, Daniel's lack of hesitation doesn't bother me in the first place. So she might be hot. Big deal. Daniel's one of the most humanistic bleeding hearts I've seen; as such, his first instinct is to rush to her. He probably wouldn't have even thought she'd be hot until he got to her and felt the heat on his hands.

warmbeachbrat
July 25th, 2005, 12:57 PM
Now, I can see where TPTB are going with her. The loving example of a "good man"--i.e. Daniel Jackson--is going to "save" her and cause her to reconsider her impure motives. To my mind, this makes her little more than the old "Hooker with a Heart of Gold" cliche, and a sad comment on female characters in general.



Hmmm--I didn't get the impression that Daniel is going to cause her to reconsider her impure motives. I think that getting burned alive and being brought back to life has focused her mind a bit--and not on wealth and what she can gain. I fully expect her to recover after a bit and still be looking out for herself, but maybe with a little more moderation. Daniel may be around to witness it, but I don't think he will be the cause.

WhatFateAlmondRoca
July 25th, 2005, 01:32 PM
<some snippity doo dah>I'm still having major problems with Lam (and the Lam/Landry connection). (1) There's no way that a civilian would be made CMO on a military base. The military would never put that type of control over the general in the hands of a civilian.

(2)When any problems between them might threaten to stability of the base (remember that "removing from command" thing? Among other problems it causes.)?

(3) With the relationship between them, this situation--her being stationed on this base--would never be permitted to exist in real life.

Good points - nepotism in the military? Kree shak! or whatever. You've got me thinking on that one - I'm going to call one of my military buddies and see what they say....seems implausible, though....

hey, i'm a mature symbiote now. Always wanted to be a mature symbiote :D

Darkdreams
July 25th, 2005, 01:33 PM
Okay, Well..

Maybe it takes a bit to kick in; like, Vala was only gone for a couple minutes or so before the guy showed up and brought her back.

Plus, in Avalon 1, when Vala and Daniel are seperated (Vala ends up in a cell and Daniel goes to see Dr. Lee), the two of them don't immediately pass out, it takes a bit to kick in.

Teal'c did say if they were seperated for too long they would both become ill and die, so it probably works the same way with one of them dying, too.

Also, the bracelet never falls off, Daniel removes the chains that held Vala to the alter as he holds her burnt body, but I don't recall ever seeing the binding bracelet come off her wrist in the science lab... unless I missed it, but I don't think so.

yep teh bonding braclet never fell off in sg1 headquarters. Vala was dead for only a minute or so plus thier minds were in another galaxy or start system so I would think that her dying would not immediatly cause daniel to die. It would take a little while for that to take effect.

Hatcheter
July 25th, 2005, 02:04 PM
Good points - nepotism in the military? Kree shak! or whatever. You've got me thinking on that one - I'm going to call one of my military buddies and see what they say....seems implausible, though....

hey, i'm a mature symbiote now. Always wanted to be a mature symbiote :D

I started a thread on that very topic here (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=12815), and still haven't found a conclusive answer after a month and a half. If your military buddy can quote the exact regulations, post them there, will you? Any additional info or case examples on civilliams working under a military relative would be appreciated as well.

Jace021903
July 25th, 2005, 02:15 PM
Sorry, not buying it. She was burnt to a crisp before his eyes and there was no way Daniel could have known she wasn't still toasty. If you look closely you can see her body was still smoking after scary guy did his magic! :S Yet Daniel showed not the least hesitation in touching her immediately. I think a much more normal reaction would have been to be at least a bit hesitant.

Yes, I know, why am I looking for normalcy...? ;)


How about this:

If the body was still hot, Daniel would have felt the heat coming from it as he approached. So he knew the scary guy took care of the heat too. :D

On another note, I love your sig picture. :)

Jace

klae
July 25th, 2005, 02:27 PM
Is anyone else bothered by the fact that the Ancients used the same numerals thousands of years ago that we use now? (When Mitchell had to put the tiles in order) The Ancients use a completly different alphabet/word system, so their numbers would be different also. Kinda bugging me.

Vicious
July 25th, 2005, 02:40 PM
Merlin was the ancient who most likely created those puzzles and by that time the numeral system was influenced by the romans giving us the current numeral system in which browder could figure out. They were in england mind you.

AGateFan
July 25th, 2005, 03:02 PM
Still loving this show, still anxious for the next episode!

About the fight scene... Someone smarter than me explained it this way:
The ancients could care less whether you can out-sword fight a knight. It was all about determination and spirit. In the beginning, the HoloKnight is programmed to fight just one notch higher than the person it is fighting. The purpose is to wear down the opponent and bring him/her to the brink of defeat. It is what the opponent does at that point that is important. If they escape to the rings, than they have failed. If they find, within themselves, the courage and resolve to get back up and fight, then they will win. At this point, HoloKnight fights one notch below the opponent, maybe starting at an equal level to see if the opponent's resolve holds, but allowing the true in spirit to eventually win.
It had nothing to do with whether or not you can hold a sword correctly, but whether you will keep fighting.
I thought this was an excellent analysis and I agree wholeheartedly.

Someone said that the sword work and foot work wasn't correct. This is also explained by the theory above. Mitchell didn't know how to fight with a broadsword, so why would he be fighting correctly? And the knight is only programmed to stay one-step ahead, so he isn't going to be showing off any clever moves, since Mitchell didn't know any. Put in this context, it make sense that no experts were called on the set to get the moves right.

Great post. :)
And for TV I thought the fight was really well done. Mitchell looked very tired after 3-4 swings as someone who has never weilded a Boardsword before should be, those things are heavy. I did think it was another test but my brain just missed the "fighting to the level of you opponent" idea. I did get that it was all about his strength of will and never surrendering though.
The fight was much, much better then I thought it would be when I heard about it.

Mongo's Girl
July 25th, 2005, 03:03 PM
First time post, though I've been lurking for about a year.

I had to weigh in a little about the sword fight. I will say that I don't know much about the broadsword, but I do know it's two-handed slashing technique is totally different than the one-handed approach used with the epee or foil traditionally in fencing.

So my first thought is to cut Cam some slack on his footwork or strategy (plus college was a little ways back for the Lt. Col. to just snap back into expert fencing footwork). Actually, you'd probably find Mitchell's outright adeptness the more implausible action.

Anyway, I liked the way that the action was shot. I thought it very good quality, especially on a TV budget. It seemed like it had more flow to it, with longer pieces of action that were not played exclusively in cuts. The fight told a story with Mitchell getting the crap kicked out of him while he just tried to defend and not get sliced up.

As the fight continues, the right-handed Mitchell took a blow to his dominant hand and continued his defense solely with his left hand. That's got to be difficult with a broadsword that is meant to be wielded with two hands. The moves were different, the flow was different and he was obviously still losing.

So the flashback made sense to me in the "fight or flee", "never give up, never surrender" sense. A little "Rockyesque" I'll grant you, but still good character stuff.

The push off from the flashback even matched the flashback in the fight scene.

To me they obviously took great care to do it well.

Just my .02

I like your .02 :)

As far as the puzzles go, I didn't have a problem with them being too easy. I would have had a problem if they were difficult, and they solved them in 10 seconds while the ceiling was about to squish them flat as a pancake. ;)

SGMike
July 25th, 2005, 03:12 PM
Merlin was the ancient who most likely created those puzzles and by that time the numeral system was influenced by the romans giving us the current numeral system in which browder could figure out. They were in england mind you.

You got a point there -- I really never thought of that!
After watching those two episode of avalon, it makes the King Aurthor and the Knights of the round table story for me never the same again if you know what I mean. It has a whole different twist :S

klae
July 25th, 2005, 05:08 PM
okay, I'll buy that. then maybe a better question is, if the puzzles were created to be solved by humans on earth, why is the writing in Ancient, and not in the olde English in use during Merlin's time? There's definitely an inconsistency there.

akimbo
July 25th, 2005, 06:23 PM
I like your .02 :)

As far as the puzzles go, I didn't have a problem with them being too easy. I would have had a problem if they were difficult, and they solved them in 10 seconds while the ceiling was about to squish them flat as a pancake. ;)

Thanks! I can't speak for the technical side, but it looked good to me.

I also like the idea expressed above that the fencing comment was a joke and he continued the self-depricating idea saying that he flunked. :p That would make him a total novice and much more likely that the holoknight was fighting at just above his level to measure his metal.

I think solving both puzzles requires that you can read Ancient. Which, apparently, is no small feat. After that, they were relatively easy unless you were also being squished.

I really enjoyed this episode. Much more action than Avalon, pt 1 and understandably so with the setup required in part 1 (which I also enjoyed).

Although I really liked the sword fight, some of my favorite parts were where we see a widening gap between Mitchell and Jack's character. Jack may have made the comment about Daniel finding the only book in a pile of treasure, but he probably would not have asked him to relate the story in the book. He also wouldn't have given Daniel back what the story meant when asked, feigning ignorance. There are a couple other departures in the ep and I like the trend.

My favorite parts belong to Daniel and Vala. Their repartee continues to impress and has toned down a notch (which is great). Daniel's reaction to the burning was spot on Daniel and very well done and I think we saw a crack in Vala's shell as a result of the burning experience which makes her more sympathetic to us and to Daniel.

And Daniel was talking fast and he could slow it a tad, but I thought it was in character of the wide-eyed Daniel Jackson that I love.

WooHoo! Bring on Origins! :D

rhade
July 25th, 2005, 06:29 PM
What a fun episode I think they did a real good job since there was so much to introduce in these episodes. I thought the new characters were real good. Daniel was great and Vala was toned down but fun and I liked what we saw after the burning. That fire scene was great I would of loved to see the more graphic version they had before. I really like the General, he isn't a copy of Hammond and he is just getting started so its all new to him we get to see how he reacts to these situations. I like the energy they have shown it makes the show seem new and old at the same time. It is great that they are bringing new conflicts to esablished species like the snakesheads with the new Jaffa nation. I thought that the transition between the first and second act was somewhat jarring but understandable given what they need to get through. Tealc did a great job as usual. I can't wait to see what these Orii do now that they know we are here.

Here is a question?

Since the Orii are ascended and you can only fight their priors and doci it makes them seem more menacing than the bad guys we have seen so far. Its like they can't be bothered to come and convert us themselves so they send missionaries. These bad guys seem less a one season threat and more of a multi year season threat. How do you fight a group of beings that have no physical form. Even if there is a way to eliminate them in no way does it stand to reason that it is something mere mortals could do on our own.

It makes me wonder if a final confrontation between Earth and the Orii wouldn't be a fight with spaceships but between us, the Ancients and the Orii. Maybe this will get those ascended folk off their collective asses and pay attention to these lower planes of existence.

Avatar28
July 25th, 2005, 06:35 PM
Perhaps if/when they try to intervene directly THEN the ascended ancients from OUR galaxy can step in to block them, thus leaving the fight to their mortal "servants." Almost a classic God vs Satan thing. They aren't allowed or can't (for whatever reason) really interfere directly, so they leave the contest to us humans. Or something like that anyways.

valainna
July 25th, 2005, 07:01 PM
First time posting! Yay me!

Okay, Part II... I enjoyed it. I would have liked to see more CM but that's just because I'm a BB fan. Can't help it.

Vala being burned, I knew it was supposed to happen and I still :eek: I admit my first thought after the initial shock was, wouldn't she smell? Call it firsthand experience coming into play in my viewing of the episode but I couldn't get the thought of the real thing out of my head. But Daniel going to her and just being Daniel. I don't want any Daniel/Vala ship but it was nice to see him go to her and hold her. And the tingles comment was priceless. Vala is trying so hard to not show her vulnerability but the look on her face and the way she held so tightly to Daniel betrays that confident exterior.

Don't really have anything to say about Landry/Lam. I don't mind either but it's still early for me to give a solid opinion on them. Separately, they seem interesting.

As I said I would have liked to see more Mitchell. I thought the fight was good especially since he probably didn't know what he was doing and was going on pure determination. Makes me wonder a little. Does anyone think it's possible he flatlined at least once after the crash? I mean I'm amazed he survived to begin with since it looked horrible. Maybe he knows more about death than just seeing it, he's been there. And I think that because the determination with the puzzle (however easy it might have been) and then the not giving up with the holoknight had something to do with it. He's faced so much already, to have it end because of a puzzle or a hologram would almost make the entire recovery pointless. At least that was my take and I have known to be wrong many times.

I would really like to see more with the Orii. They creep me out and that's always good. Though I hope they're more than just creepy. Dimension would be nice. Nonetheless I can't wait for Friday.

PsychoWarden
July 25th, 2005, 07:04 PM
okay, I'll buy that. then maybe a better question is, if the puzzles were created to be solved by humans on earth, why is the writing in Ancient, and not in the olde English in use during Merlin's time? There's definitely an inconsistency there.
Excellent observation. I think the easiest explanation for this is that the Ancient writing was a defense mechanism. Myrddin/Merlin wanted to make sure that whoever found this area was in fact worthy of the treasure, and not a thief (like Vala), someone who just happened to stumble upon the cache, or even worse of all, one of the Ancients' enemies. Since very few people speak Ancient, the person(s) worthy of the treasure would have had to be someone who not only studied and understood the Ancient language, but also could understand the cryptic clues Merlin left.

Sure, the cache was shielded quite effectively to begin with, but it seems likely that the Ancient writing was a last line of defense, just in case some random person or one of the enemies of the Ancients managed to find a way into the mountain looking for the treasure.

Or it could've just been because Merlin felt like writing in his native language...

the fifth man
July 25th, 2005, 07:06 PM
Come on, Friday. Get here already. Geez, it seems like forever since I saw the last episode. :D Can't wait to see how they wrap it up. Seeing the Ori should be pretty cool, and just want to get more of a feel on where this season is heading. Quite pleased so far though.

sparklegem
July 25th, 2005, 07:09 PM
That fire scene was great I would of loved to see the more graphic version they had before.

I also would have liked to see the earlier cut of the fire scene. It was a horrific event, and the more realistically it comes across, the more powerful it is, the more it moves me and pulls me into the story and conflict.

NakedJehutyV2
July 25th, 2005, 07:38 PM
Excellent observation. I think the easiest explanation for this is that the Ancient writing was a defense mechanism. Myrddin/Merlin wanted to make sure that whoever found this area was in fact worthy of the treasure, and not a thief (like Vala), someone who just happened to stumble upon the cache, or even worse of all, one of the Ancients' enemies. Since very few people speak Ancient, the person(s) worthy of the treasure would have had to be someone who not only studied and understood the Ancient language, but also could understand the cryptic clues Merlin left.

Sure, the cache was shielded quite effectively to begin with, but it seems likely that the Ancient writing was a last line of defense, just in case some random person or one of the enemies of the Ancients managed to find a way into the mountain looking for the treasure.

Or it could've just been because Merlin felt like writing in his native language...




i agree

akimbo
July 25th, 2005, 08:16 PM
But Daniel going to her and just being Daniel. I don't want any Daniel/Vala ship but it was nice to see him go to her and hold her. And the tingles comment was priceless. Vala is trying so hard to not show her vulnerability but the look on her face and the way she held so tightly to Daniel betrays that confident exterior.

Yup. Gotta agree there. Vala definitely has a vulnerable side under all that deflective innuendo. Though I'm not convinced either way about the Daniel/Vala ship. I'd wouldn't mind seeing Daniel have a more "normal" relationship, but we haven't seen any ship turn out particularly well for Daniel and I like Vala. :rolleyes: :p

BodenMaddox
July 25th, 2005, 08:22 PM
hmmmm.....possibly. Cam states he took fencing in college, which he flunked.

I apologize if someone else has touched on this, but I have seen this flunk thing mentioned a few times. When I saw the episode (and still now, as I re-watch it), I took Mitchell's comment, "So I flunked fencing," as a joke. I don't think he meant it sincerely. He was trying to lighten the situation and, frankly, shut Vala up. :)

StarzSkyMoon
July 25th, 2005, 08:30 PM
Just watched Avalon 2 again, and this caught my attention....

Daniel and Vala were still connected with the bracelets when the used the ancient device. Wouldnt that mean that when Vala was killed by the fire Daniel would be effected too? She died on earth, wouldnt the bands sense that and adversely affect Daniel too?

Answers or thoughts? :)


:cool: Lizbeth

¤Denial-OF-Life¤
July 25th, 2005, 08:32 PM
It's a time issue I think, if she was gone too long he would feel the effects to my understanding.

TOA
July 25th, 2005, 08:35 PM
Just watched Avalon 2 again, and this caught my attention....

Daniel and Vala were still connected with the bracelets when the used the ancient device. Wouldnt that mean that when Vala was killed by the fire Daniel would be effected too? She died on earth, wouldnt the bands sense that and adversely affect Daniel too?

Answers or thoughts? :)


:cool: Lizbeth

Lizbeth,

This was (somewhat) answered in part I. It takes a certain amount of time to impact the other person wearing the bracelet. So in the case where Vala gets smoked she wasnt actually dead long enough to kill Daniel. Both Vala and Daniels health stats either fell or completely stopped in Vala's case.

huzzah
July 25th, 2005, 09:12 PM
ToasterOnFire -- You are pretty much spot-on there regarding the arabic numerals. Arthur would have been around sometime near the end of the Roman Empire (in Britain at least) and would thus have almost definitely been using Roman numerals. I would guess that TPTB could argue that Merlin was an Ancient and might have traveled between the areas. Maybe he wanted the treasure to be found by someone at some point in time where societies were more interconnected or something. I dunno.

majorsal
July 25th, 2005, 09:59 PM
Still loving this show, still anxious for the next episode!

About the fight scene... Someone smarter than me explained it this way:
The ancients could care less whether you can out-sword fight a knight. It was all about determination and spirit. In the beginning, the HoloKnight is programmed to fight just one notch higher than the person it is fighting. The purpose is to wear down the opponent and bring him/her to the brink of defeat. It is what the opponent does at that point that is important. If they escape to the rings, than they have failed. If they find, within themselves, the courage and resolve to get back up and fight, then they will win. At this point, HoloKnight fights one notch below the opponent, maybe starting at an equal level to see if the opponent's resolve holds, but allowing the true in spirit to eventually win.
It had nothing to do with whether or not you can hold a sword correctly, but whether you will keep fighting.
I thought this was an excellent analysis and I agree wholeheartedly.

Someone said that the sword work and foot work wasn't correct. This is also explained by the theory above. Mitchell didn't know how to fight with a broadsword, so why would he be fighting correctly? And the knight is only programmed to stay one-step ahead, so he isn't going to be showing off any clever moves, since Mitchell didn't know any. Put in this context, it make sense that no experts were called on the set to get the moves right.

as i've stated before, this was my fave part of the ep. and i loved that mitchell wasn't so good in the fight. and i loved seeing the flashback, because it (like all the other flashbacks) showed us how hard mitchell's worked to overcome his afflictions. it never crossed my mind that mitchell was supposed to be good at this sword fight, because why would anyone know how to fight like that (unless they were training to be an extra on Xena :p).

i know some ppl haven't liked the flashbacks, but they've made me connect with mitchell on a much deeper level.

i've got my own afflictions (missing sam and jack so much), so i'm appreciating the writers giving me this texture to mitchell.


sally :)

Kevin
July 25th, 2005, 11:16 PM
-I thought the episode was great.

-I liked the take of Mitchell having to fight a hologram that could hurt him. It was well done.

-Vala having some of the jewels around her chest area was fun to watch. I thought they should have given her a bit of the treasure...even if it was just a little something

-I like how they are building up the tension within the Jaffa nation.

-Glad to see some exploring going on. I liked the set of the town, looked elaborate.

-I can't beleive they ended the show where they did. Teasers :( I mean it was absolutely the right place to end it, but I wanted to see the Ori so bad. I was looking at the time to see if there'd be time to see where Daniel and Vala were going

-Onto Vala......I loved her. I've loved her from the beginning, but we really saw another side of her in this episode. They toned her down a bit, but still kept what made Vala what she is. I like either version equally, so either way is good with me. Well actually, I'll give a 1.36% advantage to the Vala from this episode. More on Vala a little later.

-Daniel and Vala work so well together. Danny boy can hide it, but he likes her....more on that in a bit as well

-Vala being lit of fire. Whoever has said that Stargate is nothing but fluff should watch that scene. The whole thing was stunning. The fluff argument to me has always been 100% ridiculous, and that scene was just another in the long line of examples to prove it. People say Stargate is fluff as a way to dismiss it, but that ignores what happens on the show.

Back to the fire. What a scene, easily the scene of the season. Besides what I said above, there were two key elements to that scene.

1- It showed how much Daniel cares for Vala. You could argue that he'd react that way to anyone, but there was definately more to it then that. He cares about her, even if he won't admit it. His whole reaction before, during, and after Vala being torched was telling. It was more than just the trauma from any regular person dying. The hug between them was really touching and came off beautifully.

2- That one scene added a lot of depth to Vala. It showed how vulnerable she was behind her tough exterior. We got to see a diferent side to her that we haven't seen before. How she is indeed very human. Vala looked like a lost little school girl when she came back to life. Scared, freightened, you name it. Congrats to Claudia on a wonderful job.

I wish there was some way we could keep Vala. The character is wonderful. But it's not possible in any way. A five person team is completely unacceptable. Four is the perfect number (look at Sliders, both Stargate's, etc). And removing Carter is not an acceptable option because I want the orignal team as long as the actors want to play their roles. I've watched them for 8 years, watched the dynamic grow and evolve, and it can't be discarded. The original team should always come first.

Because Vala can't become a regular, hopefully she'll become a frequent recurring character.


Out...

ComicDiva
July 26th, 2005, 03:39 AM
It was great on all fronts:
- Action: the semi-holographic fence fight. They're really pumping up the character developement for Mitchell, which is ok but he still feels like an O'Neill clone to me.
-Humour: it was funny seeing Daniel and Vala being not nice to each other, but civilised. They had an image to maintain afterall. I laughed out loud when Daniel talked about the incident in "Average Joe" and Mitchell said he read the file on that weird guy. I thought he looked directly into the camera at the audience. Upon reinspection I realised he was looking at the doctor, but still... it would've been a funny scene.
- Drama: Vala going extracrispy. Damn. I really cringed at that one. I couldn't believe the Stargate producers were actually letting us see someone burn to death. And both Black's and Shank's acting was perfect. I loved the fact that Vala didn't just jump up and say: "Ok, I'm back. Let's get some treasure up in here." She died and she knew it. Now she's got something more in common with Daniel. Which reminds me, Daniel holding her burnt body was one of the most emotional scenes ever in this show.
- Character Developement: pretty much all around. I like Doig as the doctor, and her relationship with her father. Nice touch, I love family stories and this could be a nice alternative to the Carter father-daughter story, given that these two don't seem very close. I also liked how she didn't stand around after declaring Vala dead. These people are not her friends, they are her patients.
Teal'c is getting intense!!! I love what they did with him this episode. First almost losing his temper, then going on defense and having to remind the Jaffa they're behaving like inconsiderate, ungrateful little brats and then like complete idiots. Up until now he knew what he had to do, who he had to fight, but how can he fight the will of his own people? Great stuff! And I've never even been interested in the Jaffa plot.
And speaking of moral ambigouity, what's with the guy with the staff? He saved vala, but he encourages the Ori (it's that how it's spelled?) worship.

ChillinTheMost
July 26th, 2005, 03:54 AM
I apologize if someone else has touched on this, but I have seen this flunk thing mentioned a few times. When I saw the episode (and still now, as I re-watch it), I took Mitchell's comment, "So I flunked fencing," as a joke. I don't think he meant it sincerely. He was trying to lighten the situation and, frankly, shut Vala up. :)
I agree that Mitchell didn't really flunk fencing. He had told them that he had fencing when it first appeared that he was doing well, but when it quickly became clear that he wasn't doing as well as first thought, he made the "well, I never said I did well in the class" deprecating type of comment. Totally the type of thing I could see him saying even if he aced the class, but because he was losing this fight. What I don't see him doing is make excuses for his shortcomings by saying, "But of course, fencing is nothing like broadsword fighting, which is why I am losing..."

Besides, Mitchell is obviously a over-achiever, actually, I would think they all are, and he would probably consider getting a "C" to be "flunking".

WhatFateAlmondRoca
July 26th, 2005, 04:34 AM
Moving on....(from the fight scene, which I stated earlier that I get now so if some of you would kindly please stop quoting me out of context already....) :D Thanks chillin for shining the light - my brain is happy!

Anyway, I was pleased to see David Palffy again!!! I guess he doesn't mind playing somewhat unattractive characters???? :p

Is it Friday yet?

Tok'Ra Hostess
July 26th, 2005, 05:39 AM
Good premise to this story. Glad they made Cam somewhat clumsy with the broadswoard - at least, compared to a fencing sword it was a broadsword. :D And the whole puzzle situation put me in mind of Myst so that was kinda fun. Cam's pretty smart, too. Puts me in mind of Atlantis' Sheppard. I did find his snappy dialogue during the swordfight scene to be too close to Andromeda and other comic book material, though. Gawd, boys at Bridge, please don't go that route!!!

Vala... erm... I'm sick of Vala. I wish she'd act like she's in a SF drama, not a sit com. :rolleyes: (just my taste, mind you; I'm sure I'd like her if she was a tad more serious. Oh well, maybe the Ori will have burned some sense into her....) Daniel is a sweetheart, though, isn't he? To feel such pity for such an unlikeable person as Vala... (Personally, I think it would have been sooo much more powerful a scene if Sam had been the one burning, but, whatchagonnado?)

I liked seeing the interaction between Carolyn and her dad. She's the only person so far who can put the General off his stride. I'm looking forward to watching that dynamic.

Poor Teal'c and friends. Animal Farm, revisited. :eek:

Liked seeing Dr. Lee again, and having the props from Citizen Joe used for their intended purpose was cool.

Kalliope
July 26th, 2005, 05:45 AM
Vala... erm... I'm sick of Vala. I wish she'd act like she's in a SF drama, not a sit com. :rolleyes: (just my taste, mind you; I'm sure I'd like her if she was a tad more serious. Oh well, maybe the Ori will have burned some sense into her....) Daniel is a sweetheart, though, isn't he? To feel such pity for such an unlikeable person as Vala... (Personally, I think it would have been sooo much more powerful a scene if Sam had been the one burning, but, whatchagonnado?)


Are we watching the same show? I'm not so sure of it... :p

greytop
July 26th, 2005, 05:47 AM
Liked seeing Dr. Lee again, and having the props from Citizen Joe used for their intended purpose was cool.I also liked Cameron's reaction about the stones, about him say reading the report. The TPTB must of use this because Ben had watched all the SG-1 shows before starting his new role.

Tok'Ra Hostess
July 26th, 2005, 06:37 AM
I'm interested to see what being burned to death and brought back to life does to her character! It HAS to change her somehow????

Actually, I'll be disappointed if this experience changes her too radically.

Remember, she was posessed and tortured by a Goa'uld for who knows how long, had to watch helplessly as her mistress did horrible things to people, got caught by her own liberated people and tortured some more. This woman should be somewhat immune to torture by now, or suffer really, really severe, incapacitating mental trauma.

akimbo
July 26th, 2005, 07:51 AM
Moving on....(from the fight scene, which I stated earlier that I get now so if some of you would kindly please stop quoting me out of context already....) :D Thanks chillin for shining the light - my brain is happy!

Sorry if I've offended, it was not my intent. :S

Seshat
July 26th, 2005, 08:31 AM
I would like to point out a little quote by Joe Mallozzi from the "In the Making, Avalon, Part Two" article posted in the Stargate News section of GateWorld:

...The horrific Vala-burning sequence that aired was, in fact, a significantly toned-down version of the one that appeared in an early cut....

I KNEW there should have been more screaming... ;)

Also some interesting comments about why the two-parter suddenly became three. Am I the only one who thought Parts One and Two dragged a little in spots and perhaps should have been condensed? Anyone?

For the entire blurb, read here: http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s9/making/902.shtml

WhatFateAlmondRoca
July 26th, 2005, 08:34 AM
Remember, she was posessed and tortured by a Goa'uld for who knows how long, had to watch helplessly as her mistress did horrible things to people, got caught by her own liberated people and tortured some more. This woman should be somewhat immune to torture by now, or suffer really, really severe, incapacitating mental trauma.

You bring up an EXCELLENT point - I kept thinking about that while watching Pt. 2 and I was wondering if that was TRUE or if that was just another line o bullstuff she was feeding Daniel in PU?

Also, there have been other former hosts who have not turned out to be too mentally traumatized - I'm thinking of Skaara and the woman from Thor's Hammer. Oh, and Sarah/Osiris althought that was for less time. But, you have a point - Oma herself says that that much power/knowledge corrupts, as it did Daniel in Absolute Power.

So I guess what I'm saying is the writers could take it either way and be consistent with previous seasons. From a personal standpoint I hope it changes her character. CB I think is a terrific actress but I didn't care for Vala as she was in Part 1, but for totally personal reasons which I won't impose becuase its not all about me. :p

WhatFateAlmondRoca
July 26th, 2005, 08:36 AM
Sorry if I've offended, it was not my intent. :S

absolutely NO worries my friend, I just didn't want people thinking I still didn't get it - it IS all about ME you know???? haha :D

I'm so bummed I didn't get it when I watched it. I've been changing diapers too long!!!!

Lida
July 26th, 2005, 08:49 AM
Actually, I'll be disappointed if this experience changes her too radically.

Remember, she was posessed and tortured by a Goa'uld for who knows how long, had to watch helplessly as her mistress did horrible things to people, got caught by her own liberated people and tortured some more. This woman should be somewhat immune to torture by now, or suffer really, really severe, incapacitating mental trauma.

I would think, that burning to the consistency of a lump of charcoal, and then being revived, while still possessing the memory of the experience, might change even a former Goa'uld host.

Just my opinion, as I've never personally been burned to a cinder.....

akimbo
July 26th, 2005, 08:50 AM
absolutely NO worries my friend, I just didn't want people thinking I still didn't get it - it IS all about ME you know???? haha :D

I'm so bummed I didn't get it when I watched it. I've been changing diapers too long!!!!

Crap! Now that its all about YOU, MY delusions of grandeur have been dashed. :D

Piratejenna
July 26th, 2005, 08:57 AM
Actually, I'll be disappointed if this experience changes her too radically.

Remember, she was posessed and tortured by a Goa'uld for who knows how long, had to watch helplessly as her mistress did horrible things to people, got caught by her own liberated people and tortured some more. This woman should be somewhat immune to torture by now, or suffer really, really severe, incapacitating mental trauma.
I agree, it seems likely that being burned alive is just another horrible memory to add to an already overloaded brain. It's possible that Vala's extreme behaviour is a way of dealing with her past. You could interpret her approach to life as someone who is refusing (or unable) to look back. Perhaps she's shutting out memories through distraction tactics? I see it as a Never-Look-Back approach to life, combined with humour as her primary defence. She's got a childlike quality of constantly looking around for the next pretty shiny thing to attract her attention, and then going after it with great determination. She's always in motion, alert, looking and listening but never appearing to think too hard. If you've got a history like Vala's, I imagine the last thing you can cope with is too much introspection. I don't want her to suddenly change and become boring and philosophical. The great thing about Vala is that she IS wired differently from the usual characters we meet in Stargate, most of whom are relatively well-balanced adults. Vala''s unpredictable, possibly unstable, but still someone who has some good in her. I think she's a fascinating character.

PJ

TheCorpulent1
July 26th, 2005, 09:29 AM
Or maybe Vala's experiences of helplessly watching while the Goa'uld that had possession of her did unspeakable evils just hardened her and created the self-possessed attitude she presents, but now being burned alive might shake loose some vulnerability from that long-toughened exterior. There's never any real way to predict how anyone would react to such an extreme traumatic event.

I also liked Cameron's reaction about the stones, about him say reading the report. The TPTB must of use this because Ben had watched all the SG-1 shows before starting his new role.
I thought it was more of a contrast to Jack's style in the context. Jack wouldn't bring something up and make educated guesses based on reports he'd read. As the series progressed, Jack seemed to like being blissfully ignorant of a lot of stuff, trusting Carter and Daniel to do all the heavy thinking and suppositions while he focused on the tactics to ensure their survival on a moment-to-moment basis. I thought the point of the scene was to drive home that Mitchell is a lot more hands-on than Jack would be in most situations, due to a combination of Mitchell's newbie status vs. Jack's experienced veteran and Mitchell's fanboy attitude vs. Jack's irreverence.

WhatFateAlmondRoca
July 26th, 2005, 09:34 AM
Crap! Now that its all about YOU, MY delusions of grandeur have been dashed. :D

Hey, the Orii are supreme over us both, dontchaknow? Yasureyoubetcha!

TheCorpulent1
July 26th, 2005, 09:40 AM
Hey, the Orii are supreme over us both, dontchaknow? Yasureyoubetcha!
You forgot the "snookums." :D

WhatFateAlmondRoca
July 26th, 2005, 09:44 AM
Or maybe Vala's experiences of helplessly watching while the Goa'uld that had possession of her did unspeakable evils just hardened her and created the self-possessed attitude she presents, but now being burned alive might shake loose some vulnerability from that long-toughened exterior. There's never any real way to predict how anyone would react to such an extreme traumatic event.

So you guys are thinking that when she told Daniel about that on Promethius it was true? Just about everything else she said in that ep was a load, unless I'm not remembering (I may go back and watch it again). I thought maybe she was making it up to gain sympathy from Daniel. In any event, Corp has a point - there really is no way to predict how someone will react and change as a result of a traumatic event.


I thought it was more of a contrast to Jack's style in the context. Jack wouldn't bring something up and make educated guesses based on reports he'd read.

Jack read reports???? :D

Seriously, I did think it was a contrast to Jacks character who - according to Landry - never even unlocked his desk during his time as Supreme Commander of the SGC, let alone read reports, memos, etc. (a la Window of Opportunity and Zero Hour).

Kalliope
July 26th, 2005, 10:09 AM
So you guys are thinking that when she told Daniel about that on Promethius it was true? Just about everything else she said in that ep was a load, unless I'm not remembering (I may go back and watch it again). I thought maybe she was making it up to gain sympathy from Daniel. In any event, Corp has a point - there really is no way to predict how someone will react and change as a result of a traumatic event

Episode 5, "The Powers That Be" is going to answer your questions, I suppose... And yes, I think that the part of being a host to Goau'ld in the past is true.

ChillinTheMost
July 26th, 2005, 10:11 AM
I've never been burned alive, either, but my theory is that if it doesn't have any long-term affect on Vala it could be because she was healed so quickly.

The brain has a way of shutting down during intense pain when the body can't do anything about it. Pain is our body's way of telling us to stop doing something harmful or to get something fixed. I've heard stories about some soldiers that are gut-shot don't feel pain and the theory is that the brain knows that pain wouldn't do any good at this point; you're going to die. But sprain an ankle and your brain will let you know every time you try to put your weight on it.

Anyway, while I believe Vala felt intense pain, especially during the beginning of the burning, I don't know that her brain will "hold" that pain enough to change her general long-term outlook on life.

I think it definitely would have had an effect if she had had to endure the slow burn-unit recovery that most serious burn victims on Earth have to endure.

I'm not sure if all that made sense and I'm not trying to in any way negate the pain of burning, but the human brain can do many things to endure what we put our bodies through, especially if it goes through it relatively quickly. [Minutes of burning vs. months of recovery].

akimbo
July 26th, 2005, 11:13 AM
I thought it was more of a contrast to Jack's style in the context. Jack wouldn't bring something up and make educated guesses based on reports he'd read. As the series progressed, Jack seemed to like being blissfully ignorant of a lot of stuff, trusting Carter and Daniel to do all the heavy thinking and suppositions while he focused on the tactics to ensure their survival on a moment-to-moment basis. I thought the point of the scene was to drive home that Mitchell is a lot more hands-on than Jack would be in most situations, due to a combination of Mitchell's newbie status vs. Jack's experienced veteran and Mitchell's fanboy attitude vs. Jack's irreverence.

I totally agree. They did the same thing with the book Daniel found. Jack would not have wanted to know the story like MItchell did.

TheCorpulent1
July 26th, 2005, 11:42 AM
Yep, either TPTB are consciously throwing little contrasts to Jack in or (and this is probably more likely given how much we fans scrutinize the show) we just can't help comparing every little thing Mitchell does to Jack because Mitchell has such big shoes to fill. Either way, I like that we're being shown a lot about Mitchell right off the bat--both the big stuff about his past and the little character quirks that make him unique.

So you guys are thinking that when she told Daniel about that on Promethius it was true? Just about everything else she said in that ep was a load, unless I'm not remembering (I may go back and watch it again). I thought maybe she was making it up to gain sympathy from Daniel. In any event, Corp has a point - there really is no way to predict how someone will react and change as a result of a traumatic event.
I'm hoping it's true because it's a nice way to explain how she knows her way around the galaxy and advanced technology without being as arrogant or enlightened as the Tollan or other advanced humans we've seen. Plus it adds a nice dimension to the character and it's a good way to keep the Goa'uld alive in the series. As for why she would've been truthful about that and not about anything else she told Daniel, I don't know. Maybe part of her fast-talking thief strategy is to sprinkle bits of truth into her lies to further confound people and keep them off their game.

Jack read reports????
Hehehe, I was initially going to say that Jack wouldn't suggest anything based on reports because he doesn't read reports, but I thought that might upset people who still miss him a lot. I wouldn't want to accidentally incur any red. ;)

Seriously, I did think it was a contrast to Jacks character who - according to Landry - never even unlocked his desk during his time as Supreme Commander of the SGC, let alone read reports, memos, etc. (a la Window of Opportunity and Zero Hour).
I loved that reference to Jack in "Avalon I," as well as the fact that Jack didn't tell Mitchell that SG-1 had disbanded. Those are definitely a couple of Jack things to do. Mitchell's air of overachievement is a nice overarching contrast to it, too, and I'm looking forward to how he changes the dynamic later on, whenever SG-1 comes back together permanently.

WhatFateAlmondRoca
July 26th, 2005, 12:58 PM
Hehehe, I was initially going to say that Jack wouldn't suggest anything based on reports because he doesn't read reports, but I thought that might upset people who still miss him a lot. I wouldn't want to accidentally incur any red. ;)

Er, well, not reading memos isn't a BAD thing per se....it just means you are extremely busy and important, running around with Asgard, having ancient knowledge downloaded into your brain and all that rot. Memos? Reports? BAH.

Yeah, that's it.

Qasim
July 26th, 2005, 12:59 PM
Did anybody change their opinion of Vala while she was burning - she sort of came out of her shell

joasia
July 26th, 2005, 01:17 PM
Seriously, I did think it was a contrast to Jacks character who - according to Landry - never even unlocked his desk during his time as Supreme Commander of the SGCAnd he has been a commander of the SG-1 for seven years and didn't even know he has a desk... :D

Dani347
July 26th, 2005, 01:35 PM
Since she could use the healing device, doesn't that mean she had to have been a host at some point? Daniel's immediate response in Prometheus Unbound when she healed his shoulder was that she was a Gou'ald. So, the only choices are she's still a Goa'uld, or she's a former host. That she could have and does lie about other things, I have no doubt, but I never thought this was a lie.

greytop
July 26th, 2005, 01:43 PM
Since she could use the healing device, doesn't that mean she had to have been a host at some point? Daniel's immediate response in Prometheus Unbound when she healed his shoulder was that she was a Gou'ald. So, the only choices are she's still a Goa'uld, or she's a former host. That she could have and does lie about other things, I have no doubt, but I never thought this was a lie.I believe in PU, she told Daniel that she was a former host.

Kalliope
July 26th, 2005, 02:02 PM
I believe in PU, she told Daniel that she was a former host.

DANIEL: You’re a Goa’uld.
VALA:. No – but I was once a host to one.
DANIEL: Which would explain the naqahdah in your blood that lets you use Goa’uld technology.
VALA: And how I can quickly learn to fly this rather primitive ship.

http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/stargate/season8/stargate-812.htm

bmicales
July 26th, 2005, 02:55 PM
About the fight scene... Someone smarter than me explained it this way:
The ancients could care less whether you can out-sword fight a knight. It was all about determination and spirit. In the beginning, the HoloKnight is programmed to fight just one notch higher than the person it is fighting. The purpose is to wear down the opponent and bring him/her to the brink of defeat. It is what the opponent does at that point that is important. If they escape to the rings, than they have failed. If they find, within themselves, the courage and resolve to get back up and fight, then they will win. At this point, HoloKnight fights one notch below the opponent, maybe starting at an equal level to see if the opponent's resolve holds, but allowing the true in spirit to eventually win.
It had nothing to do with whether or not you can hold a sword correctly, but whether you will keep fighting.
I thought this was an excellent analysis and I agree wholeheartedly.

Someone said that the sword work and foot work wasn't correct. This is also explained by the theory above. Mitchell didn't know how to fight with a broadsword, so why would he be fighting correctly? And the knight is only programmed to stay one-step ahead, so he isn't going to be showing off any clever moves, since Mitchell didn't know any. Put in this context, it make sense that no experts were called on the set to get the moves right.

FINALLY someone understands the purpose of the sword fight! It is not about technique rather the person's resolve ... as stated.

Granted this sort of thing has been done before and it was another race (the Asgard), but it would not surprise me if two highly advanced races came up with similar methods to protect their "treasures"and/or determine the worthiness of a person.

BTW, Thank you so much for stating this.

Bruce Micales

majorsal
July 26th, 2005, 04:12 PM
-

I wish there was some way we could keep Vala. The character is wonderful. But it's not possible in any way.

hey, maybe atlantis can have vala. hey, maybe daniel can go with her. works for me! :p :p


sally :D

Dani347
July 26th, 2005, 04:20 PM
Yeah, I know she told him that. I was just explaining that the only alternative to her being a former host like she said was that she was still one, and I don't think that's what people meant when they wondered if she was lying. Simply put, Vala wasn't lying about having been a host.

Kevin
July 26th, 2005, 07:02 PM
hey, maybe atlantis can have vala. hey, maybe daniel can go with her. works for me! :p :p


sally :D

Ahhhh nooooo!!! If anyone is gonna be added to Atlantis, it should be the wonderful Sora

We can keep Vala as a recurring character

Out...

Traveler Enroute1
July 26th, 2005, 07:34 PM
I loved this episode. Seems we are moving along nicely getting into the Cam's character and the new lay of the land.

About the jaffa nation: Please, PTB, don't take the same road Star Trek: The Next Generation took iwth the Klingons. Love the bone-heads, but their political tangles dragged on and on til I longed for ANYTHING else to happen! Sometimes their storylines intersected with the Enterprise crew very well; they were delicious villains then. But too many episodes focussed on jaffa in-fighting, IMHO, will take away from SG1, saving the universe and and SG1's great new beginning. Make their storylines relevant and I'll be ok with their screen time.

The burning scene was horrendous and well done by director, set designer, stunt double (I think) and sfx. Claudia worked that scene and gave me shivers. And as stated, Michael's reaction as moving. Just when I thought burning at the stake was passe B-movie horror, well. :eek:

I just wonder (hopefully I'm not repeating; if so, sorry): The ceiling was coming down, but a knee-high podium with the puzzles was in the middle of both chambers. Wouldn't that have stopped/slowed/at least interfered with the occupants being squished? Guess squished or pulverized is irrelevant.

And did I miss a spoiler tag or a scene? Father and daughter??? :S

Looking forward to Friday's ep, as usual.

Just sayin'.

majorsal
July 26th, 2005, 07:53 PM
Ahhhh nooooo!!! If anyone is gonna be added to Atlantis, it should be the wonderful Sora

We can keep Vala as a recurring character

Out...

is sora the person in your sigpic? (i don't watch atlantis)


sally :)

Kevin
July 26th, 2005, 08:24 PM
is sora the person in your sigpic? (i don't watch atlantis)


sally :)

Nope, that's actually my second fave character ever on Stargate (behind Jack)....Ayiana. She was the Ancient buried in the ice in the 604 episode Frozen. I heart her :)

Out...

the fifth man
July 26th, 2005, 08:24 PM
Yup. Gotta agree there. Vala definitely has a vulnerable side under all that deflective innuendo. Though I'm not convinced either way about the Daniel/Vala ship. I'd wouldn't mind seeing Daniel have a more "normal" relationship, but we haven't seen any ship turn out particularly well for Daniel and I like Vala. :rolleyes: :p

Hope tptb let a little more of that side to Vala out on her time on the show. That would maybe give more people a reason to want to see her come back at some point in the future.

AGateFan
July 27th, 2005, 01:05 AM
II just wonder (hopefully I'm not repeating; if so, sorry): The ceiling was coming down, but a knee-high podium with the puzzles was in the middle of both chambers. Wouldn't that have stopped/slowed/at least interfered with the occupants being squished? Guess squished or pulverized is irrelevant.

.

I think (but cant check right now) that the podium's were sinking into the floor as the ceiling got lower. I think I saw that but then my mind may have just been compensating for a potential plot hole.

Oh, and did anyone think the gold and jewels were just another test to distract the weak minded from the real treasure -- book and communications device. That occurred to me when someone else had mentioned that gold and jewels didnt seem like the Ancients style. just wondering what you thought.

the_cadpig
July 27th, 2005, 02:47 AM
Oh, and did anyone think the gold and jewels were just another test to distract the weak minded from the real treasure -- book and communications device. That occurred to me when someone else had mentioned that gold and jewels didnt seem like the Ancients style.

Good point. I can see it as another test, sure.

ChillinTheMost
July 27th, 2005, 05:02 AM
That works for me, too. Not just that it was a test, but to distract those that wanted monetary treasure from paying attention to the book and transportation device and, thereby, using them inappropriately. I know that's kind of saying the same thing, but coming in from a different angle.

eve11
July 27th, 2005, 05:02 AM
Daniel and Vala were still connected with the bracelets when the used the ancient device. Wouldnt that mean that when Vala was killed by the fire Daniel would be effected too? She died on earth, wouldnt the bands sense that and adversely affect Daniel too?

In fact the doctors do mention that right before she revives. And the first time, it took a little while for the effect to sink in.

For the puzzles: I was a little more annoyed by the fact that Daniel and Vala's puzzle was like a 50/50 shot. But at the same time, these puzzles are only the first string. As for the numerals: well, they can materialize a holographic knight out of thin air -- maybe they can scan a person's thoughts when they enter the cave and tailor the numerals to what they use? Though I guess that would make the task easier for some people if their numeral system was like, Roman numerals. Anyway, it's a cute puzzle. They had the same problem back in the Thor's chariot puzzle too, when they expanded pi as decimals: 3 14 15 19 in runes. That really assumes you're working in base 10 -- it only makes sense if you're working in base 10, and for instance didn't the Mayans or some others work in base 60? *waves hands* And, meta-speaking, maybe there's something to be said for making the puzzles "easy" enough for the audience to figure out too.

My favorite part of that whole bit had to be Cameron's descriptions of the Ancient letters though. That was pretty funny.

WhatFateAlmondRoca
July 27th, 2005, 05:16 AM
You forgot the "snookums." :D
I know this reply is way late but I couldn't resist....

I was out casting for that ever elusive crappy!

ChillinTheMost
July 27th, 2005, 05:34 AM
For the puzzles: I was a little more annoyed by the fact that Daniel and Vala's puzzle was like a 50/50 shot. AND there were do-overs! Yep, don't get it right the first time, do it again. Like someone would think the alternative to opening the pot on the left would be something other than opening the pot on the right??? How can you fail this test?


Though I guess that would make the task easier for some people if their numeral system was like, Roman numerals. Roman numerals would be interesting since I and its mirror image is II, IV and its mirror image is IVVI while VI and its mirror image is VIIV.
II, IIII, IIIIII, IVVI, VV, VIIV, VIIIIV, VIIIIIIV
I think they'd need bigger tiles. :p


My favorite part of that whole bit had to be Cameron's descriptions of the Ancient letters though. That was pretty funny. That was great! I loved that part! I'm also impressed that Daniel could visualize the descriptions into their correct letters and keep it all straight while Mitchell shouted them out. By the time they got to the fifth letter, I'd be asking, "What was the second one again? Was that the chair?"

Dani347
July 27th, 2005, 06:45 AM
About the puzzles, Alex Levine, a script coordinator for SG1 has a blog on Scifi's website, and he (I'm guessing it's a he) wrote that the real test in Daniel and Vala's puzzle wasn't picking the right pot. It was the "truth of spirit" test, to see if anyone would steal the coin once they found it. But, they could have made it clearer that the truth of spirit was the main point of their puzzle on the show.

WhatFateAlmondRoca
July 27th, 2005, 07:16 AM
About the puzzles, Alex Levine, a script coordinator for SG1 has a blog on Scifi's website, and he (I'm guessing it's a he) wrote that the real test in Daniel and Vala's puzzle wasn't picking the right pot. It was the "truth of spirit" test, to see if anyone would steal the coin once they found it. But, they could have made it clearer that the truth of spirit was the main point of their puzzle on the show.

Another excellent point...the truth of spirit deal seems very Arthurian (but I'm no expert).

Lida
July 27th, 2005, 07:33 AM
In fact the doctors do mention that right before she revives. And the first time, it took a little while for the effect to sink in.

For the puzzles: I was a little more annoyed by the fact that Daniel and Vala's puzzle was like a 50/50 shot. But at the same time, these puzzles are only the first string. As for the numerals: well, they can materialize a holographic knight out of thin air -- maybe they can scan a person's thoughts when they enter the cave and tailor the numerals to what they use? Though I guess that would make the task easier for some people if their numeral system was like, Roman numerals. Anyway, it's a cute puzzle. They had the same problem back in the Thor's chariot puzzle too, when they expanded pi as decimals: 3 14 15 19 in runes. That really assumes you're working in base 10 -- it only makes sense if you're working in base 10, and for instance didn't the Mayans or some others work in base 60? *waves hands* And, meta-speaking, maybe there's something to be said for making the puzzles "easy" enough for the audience to figure out too.

My favorite part of that whole bit had to be Cameron's descriptions of the Ancient letters though. That was pretty funny.

The Mayan numerical system was based on 20. Larger numbers were written down, in powers of 20, much like we do in our decimal system. Their system was rather easy to use, but they couldn't use fractions.

End of history/anthropology lesson, I'm NO Daniel Jackson. ;)

Avatar28
July 27th, 2005, 09:57 AM
The Mayan numerical system was based on 20. Larger numbers were written down, in powers of 20, much like we do in our decimal system. Their system was rather easy to use, but they couldn't use fractions.

End of history/anthropology lesson, I'm NO Daniel Jackson. ;)

Correct. It was, I believe, the Babylonians who used base 60. That's also where we get our 360 degrees, minutes/seconds,. etc.