Reality: a special effect

[Sci-Fi]

From the L.A. Times:

Reality: a special effect

An excellent article, but you need to register in order to read the entire article.
Warning: there are some spoilers within the article.

A few excerpts (spoiler free):

On the Internet, the show has sparked much debate between liberals and conservatives. One fan wrote on the scifi.com bulletin board, "Tom Zarek is a cowardly, self-serving toad." Another wrote, "My only regret is that I cannot vote for him." A third said Zarek reminded him of too many politicians today: sounds good, but no constructive alternatives and can't be trusted.

Aware that some conservatives have criticized the show for a "blame America" attitude and some liberals suggest they're advancing a right wing, fascistic view of the future, Moore and Eick denied the show is a direct allegory for current events. "The Cylons are not direct analogs of Al Qaeda. Laura Roslin is not a direct analog of George Bush. The Colonials are not a stand in for the U.S.," Eick said. Still, he said Roslin has made decisions that are "tough and questionable and parallel those of the current president and administration."

Going where no sci-fi TV show has gone before does have its risks, however. "There is the potential for so many missteps if it's not handled well," Altman said. The religious elements might alienate some of the audience, for instance, he said.

Some viewers could not abide unpunished bad behavior in the military leaders. "I don't care to see my heroes purposefully depraved for ratings," said one Internet writer. "If Starbuck and Apollo [the human rights abusers] are going to behave this way, then I expect them to be held accountable."

"Battlestar Galactica" can tackle hot-button topics more directly than, say, "The West Wing."

"It's a much bigger minefield on 'The West Wing,' " Moore said. "You're obligated to give both sides a mouthpiece, to be as fair as you can. You're constantly dodging around certain words and phrases to not send the wrong message. With us, it's the Cylons and the Colonials. We can do whatever we want."

Though the topics can be uncomfortable or scary, Sobchack said considering them through the lens of science fiction offers viewers a sense of control. "There's this sense that watching it, we will all have survived the possibility of this. Looking at what you fear, knowing it, keeps you free."

[sharky277]

I don't think you have to resgister, I clicked on the link and it worked. At least if that's the whole article I got.

[Darth Buddha]

The reality that nobody is a pure hero and nobody is a pure villain is one of the very big differences between BSG and the sG universe. Note how angry some Stargate fans get at those who dare question the motives and actions of their SG-1 and SGA heroes. Even daring to suggest creating the Wraith might be a blemish on the record of the Ancients can be controversial. That's understandable because in most plots Stargate have a very dogmatic delineation of the good guys and the bad guys, with very little space between.

In BSG those questions are pushed down your throat! No character can be considered a pure hero, and no character a pure villain, but somewhere in the continuum between.. I find this approach to be refreshing in contrast to BSG TOS, SG and most of Trek (with the exception of DS9) where the white and black hats are almost literal.

[spg_1983]

The reality that nobody is a pure hero and nobody is a pure villain is one of the very big differences between BSG and the sG universe. Note how angry some Stargate fans get at those who dare question the motives and actions of their SG-1 and SGA heroes. Even daring to suggest creating the Wraith might be a blemish on the record of the Ancients can be controversial. That's understandable because in most plots Stargate have a very dogmatic delineation of the good guys and the bad guys, with very little space between.

In BSG those questions are pushed down your throat! No character can be considered a pure hero, and no character a pure villain, but somewhere in the continuum between.. I find this approach to be refreshing in contrast to BSG TOS, SG and most of Trek (with the exception of DS9) where the white and black hats are almost literal.

dang, couldnt have said it better myself! the whole question about everycharacter being a grey hat instead of a black or white hat is what makes the show so great. did starbuck go to far in interrogating the cylon by engaging in bare knuckle torture? but the subject wasnt even human, he was a machine. but he was a machine that could feel pain and had emotions. so was it right or wrong? it makes you think, which is a rarity among sci fi today because too much of it is like SG, candy coated and perfectly PC. the good guys will always do the right thing and never do anything to offend the fanboys and fangirls sensitive sensibilities. the bad guys will always be stereo typically evil and over the top, and the protagonists will always win. BSG isnt like that. the line between good guys and bad guys doesnt exist. the good guys have been utterly beaten and are desperate to survive and will do anything it takes to survive. the bad guys have deeper motives and plans other than galactic domination, and the line between friend and foe is blurred. the controversy BSG evokes in the viewers mind is what makes it so great. it actually engages you and makes you think instead of spoon feeding you the candy coated, PC drek we get out of the rest of science fiction today.

[fair_nymph]

Great comments, Darth and spg! I'd add something but you two have already said everything I was thinking. I couldn't agree more.

[SGalisa]

along with a few other items:
...from the other side of seeing too much Reality TV...

So far, I'm not known here to have actually watched the new BSG... but I have. I stopped watching on a regular basis because I found it easier to listen to it, than to get dizzy from seeing "shaky cam". So listen I did, until Baltar's Six antics just got to be overdone... anyway, not a program for the kiddies. Not for those who *aren't* supposed to know how to do that sort of stuff anyway -realistic or not. And excusing that all the channels *do* it now, is just a poor excuse for filling in extra screen time.

Originally posted by Sci-Fi:
From the L.A. Times:
...
"The Cylons are not direct analogs of Al Qaeda..."

Cylons were around long before Al Qaeda became a household name (as of late 2001) in the USA. What's true about the Cylons in their original 1970's format is still true today, except the hardware is more tarnished (also CGI effect, I think)... not polished silver any more, requiring silky gloves to remove smudges and fingerprints from the actors putting the outfits on.

The hybrid birthing is new, tho... end result is probably still the same: complete domination over humans.

Originally posted by Darth Buddha:
Note how angry some Stargate fans get at those who dare question the motives and actions of their SG-1 and SGA heroes. Even daring to suggest creating the Wraith might be a blemish on the record of the Ancients can be controversial.

As a SG viewer from the beginning, I found it strange to find topics like that on the SG boards. It was more like a *hunh??* reaction on my part. Since some goa'uld creatures could actually be tok'ra, and others plain deceive their Jaffa carriers to make them *think* they could turn good, I did not find it strange for some ancients to act selfishly and keep Weir in their time zone in "Before I Sleep".

Humanity is humanity (to commit errors in judgements at various times in life for any species), regardless of what actions are taken. What's true for the goose seems true for the gander, and so forth.

Note how angry some Stargate fans get at those who dare question the motives and actions of their SG-1 and SGA heroes.

When the anger is instigated by a "my show's better than your show" mentality, then it's time to step away and see the sillyness from both sides.

Seriously, that sort of thing just makes me wonder if both sides actually watched instead of nit-picked little things that they *thought* were imperatively important (and yes, I *am* including myself into this category!).

What I would suggest (and have done so for myself), for anyone doing any commenting, did we (viewers) actually catch all the details on why certain things were done or not, or was our commenting just an out of place item being tossed into the air? Big difference when certain details are revealed and why they appeared in the script in the first place. Why so-and-so actually did such-and-such, and so forth.

I have done the same with BSG, but don't comment on it because I'm not into the politics and the new BSG effect. No, it is not like the original. But it's sort of stuck as a war show, and that's it. Gritty is fine, if that's what you like. But gritty gets seriously depressing after seeing nothing but that or obvious sex.

I believed a long time ago that the new BSG is Sci-Fi's replacement for Lexx.
I didn't think some people would take that comment and actually run with it as if declaring:

"WOW!! WE GOT a WINNER!!! TOPS even SG!!"

Funny thing how shortly after that idea got mentioned elsewhere on the internet, such thinking actually became a TV war cry mostly on the BSG end...

Something must have gotten lost in the translation; and it doesn't help when viewers from both shows feel at directly opposing odds with each other. If anything, SG complements (balances out) BSG, because -put too much grit on in one night, and eventually it becomes another Sci-Fi horror war night. Time to turn off the channel.

Some people can't just tune out the negativity as easily as others, since their naturally pessimistic / cynical nature tends to dominate their normal waking other hours, as well. One has to know when to walk away from these things, and learn to separate fiction from reality.

That's why I stopped watching the regular (cable) world news for hours each time every day, and tuned in to SG during the real TV news programs times (which the TV news was basically almost non-stop viewing as of Sept.2001, until SG showed up on a M-F nightly basis). Too much gritty negativity and outright gore was too much. Yeah, it's real; yeah, we know it's there (always have known that since the Cold War era).

When Stargate finally came along to the Sci-Fi channel, it provided and was a refreshing change of pace and scenery.

[Darth Buddha]

Cylons were around long before Al Qaeda became a household name (as of late 2001) in the USA. What's true about the Cylons in their original 1970's format is still true today, except the hardware is more tarnished (also CGI effect, I think)... not polished silver any more, requiring silky gloves to remove smudges and fingerprints from the actors putting the outfits on.

The Cylons on screen today have about as much in common with those on the screen in the 1970's as a love-child from Jessica Hahn and Abu-Nidal would have with a toaster. Today's Cylons boink and kill en masse in the name of their God.. a far cry from their emotionless, religionless, sexless precursors. They may not be metaphors for Al-Quaeda, but they are a devil of a lot closer to Bin-Laden than their Terminator style forefathers.

If you think the only difference is tarnish, I suggest you take another stab at actually looking at the screen. You've missed more than just some snarky special effects, you seem to have missed the entirety of the show. I suggest you try watching it again. It's worth the effort.

As a SG viewer from the beginning, I found it strange to find topics like that on the SG boards. It was more like a *hunh??* reaction on my part. Since some goa'uld creatures could actually be tok'ra, and others plain deceive their Jaffa carriers to make them *think* they could turn good, I did not find it strange for some ancients to act selfishly and keep Weir in their time zone in "Before I Sleep".

Humanity is humanity (to commit errors in judgements at various times in life for any species), regardless of what actions are taken. What's true for the goose seems true for the gander, and so forth.

Humanity is humanity, eh? Perhaps, but not all representations are equally representative of that fact.

Can you cite me a time when Jack O'Neill doesn't do "the right thing"? Can you name me a time that Samantha Carter is selfish? That General Hammond is petty or vindictive?

So my question to you is this: Can you honestly say to me that the presentation of good guys and bad guys in Stargate is not presented in a far less morally complicated framework than BSG?

If you can, then I'll credit the rest of your ramble with being at least internally consistent, though not all that observant.

When the anger is instigated by a "my show's better than your show" mentality, then it's time to step away and see the sillyness from both sides.

Well, much as you seem to have missed a good bit of BSG, you've also managed to miss the very indignant fandom element for SG and for many other shows that can froth at any questioning of their heroes' motives or actions. I'll see if I can't dig up any links to some of these threads... most of them closed by now, and many completely AWOL. In this case, though, you were probably better off missing it.

Fandom elements not only reject those who are fans of other shows, which I can understand at least. They reject those who just aren't quite fervent enough in appreciating their own shows. This rises above even the level of silliness your describe.

To suggest that a character's actions may have been reprehensible is a sin to many. To think that perhaps the Ancients weren't the great guys they originally looked like is verboten. Even if the motive is "isn't this interesting", rather than "this show is better/worse than show 'X'", it makes no difference.

You've been averting your eyes from more than just the jostling images of BSG, it would seem.

[SGalisa]

yikes, in aftersight: rambling or not, some of this was asked for... oy!
(takes for-EV-Ver to write this stuff!)
Before I begin, however ~
the best advice I've ever found was to *never* jump to conclusions without having ALL of the details. Only speak ~ based upon what is given, not on what is not seen, lest a surprising detail pop up -making fools of those who thought they knew everything (prior).

Originally posted by SGalisa:
What's true about the Cylons in their original 1970's format is still true today...

The hybrid birthing is new, tho... end result is probably still the same: complete domination over humans.


Originally posted by Darth Buddha:
Today's Cylons boink and kill en masse in the name of their God..
...If you think the only difference is tarnish, I suggest you take another stab at actually looking at the screen.

ummm, please re-read my note. Making babies happens because of "boinking" behavior... enough said! I just chose to write it differently. Also, I only scratched the *tarnished* surface. Cylons still want to dominate or else they wouldn't have nuked the humans on Caprica, nor continue pursuing them to taunt them and blow up their fighters (spacecraft, etc). Gee, and "who" put those ideas into their pre-programmed heads?

I suggest you try watching it again. It's worth the effort.

I find that doubtful. Like a few other viewers here, I've watched one viewing of BSG, and not interested in another. It's a take it or leave it show (to me). To find BSG *spectacular* and compare it to SG-1/SGA, is like comparing apples and koalas. They're not MEANT to be the same. Anyway, based on what I have seen, I've critiqued some thoughts elsewhere (different web site). Sometimes the music annoyed me. Tried watching the new BSG series twice, but often get bored or fell asleep. It really depends on the plots, and who's doing *what* when. Watched several viewings of SG, and still find them 99.9% entirely enjoyable. I think it's a matter of viewer preference. I would expect no less of the same reaction from anyone else with different *tastes*.

oops! Clarification on "viewing"...
for non-USA viewers and non-Sci-Fi channel watchers, by "viewing" in the above paragraph, I mean seeing the same episode twice in the same night (or repeat time stretch). It doesn't or didn't mean watching only one episode of BSG, and that's it. It means sitting thru 2 viewings of the very same episode within the same six-hour time frame. Thus, Sci-Fi's 3 program line-up on Friday nights, repeating immediately after the first viewing of the first viewing cycle.

sorry if that wasn't clear enough...

Plus, there are issues with BSG that I found difficult to actually *watch* scene by scene. One is one of the camera cutting quirks. Instead of natural zooming, a cut, cut, cut is used instead - forward and in reverse. It's like watching someone filming with the ADD (or Adult-ADD) syndrome. As a new filming technique, when overused ~ it gives headaches! It only worked well, when looking at the Cylon ships about to engage in battle; and only once or twice per ep.

And unless the goal is to make viewers constantly space sick, adding shaky cam to the rest makes *watching* additionally annoying. Of course, seeing the "10.5" sci-fi movie was much worse...

After seeing the movie "10.5" on Sci-Fi, it just seemed they used either the same director or camera guy from BSG, whom I would have dropped for someone who wouldn't be so jumpy in their technique. Yes, it's a nit-pick, but this is why I had to walk away from looking at BSG and listen instead, while making my huge Lexx salad for an evening snack.

One of the Friday night line-up 3 shows would always suffer to some degree, so it mostly became BSG. Except for the 1st SG-1 viewing... had to wash/dry dishes then (so I'd listen via headphones via VCR), or suffer watching O'Reilly (Fox News) because that was hubby's 1st choice, then catch the 2nd SG-1 viewing later.

2nd issue. Regardless of the new BSG series hype, I'm not fond of cigar smoking anybodies. Starbuck (DB) was tolerable in the original, only because he was cute. Female Starbuck now is okay looking, but smokes stogies.

Smoking anything is a disgusting habit, IMO. I used to have to clean ashtrays and stare at everyone's puffing germ habits. I hated Hollywood for forcing people into smoking just to get a good acting job. I think that stinks as bad as the cigars and cigarettes being passed around. Flavoring or scenting them doesn't help. They still cause heart-attacks, black lungs, lung cancer, respiratory tumors, and instigate allergies and asthma. Unless the Colonials are still too primitive medically to understand, how is the BSG storyline dealing with that as an issue? It hasn't come up yet, and probably won't.

The closest BSG has come to any of that is Madam President's (breast) cancer, which is caused by something else. They have the knowledge to detect that and help her, but nothing so far on smoking and its (cancer-causing) carcinogin effects, unless the Colonials are immune to that particular medical problem, which is entirely possible.

[SGalisa]

Originally posted by Darth Buddha:
I'll see if I can't dig up any links to some of these threads...

{EDITed} thought *appreciated* but... It's not *really* necessary. I've been reading Gateworld for about two years now (including some BSG topics). Relearned lots about BSG mythology and what separated it from Star Wars. Took notes, too! Actually, I found these BSG topics on GW site (eons) long before the TV wars started, and have recommended GW's forums here and Sci-Fi's own BSG pages to other folks who were more interested than I was.

Actually, I have also found the reading of these topics sometimes more intense than watching the show itself. There's probably a better way to word this, but haven't found it yet...

{more EDIT: I did go back during the marathon and watched some of the repeats... Unfortunately, most of it I already saw before... and had problems with the excessive hand held camera movement... ended up listening instead, again.}

Fandom elements...reject those who just aren't quite fervent enough in appreciating their own shows.

{EDIT: removed most of the meaningless drivel, since it probably won't help here anyway. Rephrased instead as follows...}
Deja vu?! not *Passionate* enough? Where have I heard *that* expression before?

Suffice it to say that I have tried to help others elsewhere become interested in the new BSG series. What was shared in those other places, I found it *good* and healthy to finally see other minds being stirred up in the positive, creative zones of TV's sci-fi, drama, whatever world.

BSG ...has so far stimulated the political and spiritual (and sexual) arenas. Keeping things close to our own current news events, etc., limits the series from inspiring our real life future generations to study of future space exploration. With the storyline cycle of

"it has happened before and is happening now, and will happen again"

puts BSG into limiting its *realism*. That sounds more like someone saying History basically repeats itself; humans are doomed to repeat the same things over and over again; or add a touch of karma reincarnation for dooming history to repeat itself.... {END of re-EDITed text}

========
So, whatever also happened to the average viewer who just watches TV to relax from having a stress-filled day from real life? I thought it was known as: unwinding and simply enjoying the moment... appreciating life's little blessings to their fullest, when they do come.
========

Also, as far as "fandom" is concerned in my life, I outgrew that stage a long time ago, when things I liked often got shortlived on TV (NBC in fact!). So, I began to hold such *favorites* with a very loose leash. If it slipped away, so be it. I'm not going to put a strangle-hold on anything be it SG or BSG or anything else. If the younger crowd choses to do so, let them spend their energies chasing after such things. I simply stopped going down that route. Age and wisdom will do that.

I'm all for good drama, which the 2004 BSG has. BSG just needs to work out the technical (camera and editing) twitches and change that horridly old soap-opera-ish TV commercial preview music, and then it might become much better -in my perspective.

Can you cite me a time when Jack O'Neill doesn't do "the right thing"?

Yes, but you'd probably disagree: every time he decides removing a problem is to just blow "the thing" up to kingdom come. Fortunately, Sam and Daniel talk him out of it, and their way is done instead. Also, Bratac has a talent for humbling O'Neill. ...Sam selfish? She betrayed Fifth, almost against her will ...and maybe because she was ordered to follow orders; but she *did* do it. Maybe her selfishness is a bit more ambiguous- not so obvious. She's not afraid to challenge against what she thinks is a bad idea.

Originally posted by Darth Buddha:
Cylons...
You've missed more than just some snarky special effects, you seem to have missed the entirety of the show.

Snarky? Please define "snarky", so we're at least on the same page of understanding. I've never heard of SFX as snarky. Unless, one of those "snarky special effects" relates to the following:

Starbuck finding and gutting out the (creature in the) Cylon drone ship, and flying it with all that slimy goo on her, and later doing her cha-cha-cha flying maneuver in the end with her name painted on the bottom of the ship...In English, of course!

[spg_1983]

2nd issue. Regardless of the new BSG series hype, I'm not fond of cigar smoking anybodies. Starbuck (DB) was tolerable in the original, only because he was cute. Female Starbuck now is okay looking, but smokes stogies.

Smoking anything is a disgusting habit, IMO. I used to have to clean ashtrays and stare at everyone's puffing germ habits. I hated Hollywood for forcing people into smoking just to get a good acting job. I think that stinks as bad as the cigars and cigarettes being passed around. Flavoring or scenting them doesn't help. They still cause heart-attacks, black lungs, lung cancer, respiratory tumors, and instigate allergies and asthma. Unless the Colonials are still too primitive medically to understand, how is the BSG storyline dealing with that as an issue? It hasn't come up yet, and probably won't.

The closest BSG has come to any of that is Madam President's (breast) cancer, which is caused by something else. They have the knowledge to detect that and help her, but nothing so far on smoking and its (cancer-causing) carcinogin effects, unless the Colonials are immune to that particular medical problem, which is entirely possible.

why do they have to address it secifically? its not like its something people dont know about, everyone knows smoking causes cancer so why should they dumb down the show and spell it out for us again? 50% of adults smoke in some form or another so its much more realistic to show characters smoking instead of the sterilized smoke free programming that has become so PC. people smoke, its realistic to have people smoke in tv shows.

[SGalisa]

smoking... and other realities...

Originally posted by spg_1983:
why do they have to address it secifically? its not like its something people dont know about, everyone knows smoking causes cancer so why should they dumb down the show and spell it out for us again?

This topic is basically about the realism in BSG being a wonderful asset to the series. It's not *dumbing* down the series at all to include medical problems from smoking, if the right approach was used. Madam President has a terminally malignant and aggressive form of (breast) cancer. The show is dealing *graciously* with that ...albeit, turning her character into a drug induced prophet who could die any day. Laura has kept most of her pain and suffering to herself; and at the same time sort of spiritually grown because of the prophecies.

Plus, I'd say about 99% of the crew drinks, if not 100%. Some of them are avid alcoholics. Tigh has a drinking problem. Adama called him on the carpet for that one. Starbuck (Kara) is another one prone to drink herself into oblivion. Their drinking has been addressed in relationship to how well they are able to do their jobs shortly after getting soused.

I did like the toast Starbuck gave at the end of one ep: fresh, drinking water. Cheers! Nothing like a good swig of cool, purified and drinkable water.

Aside from the Cylon machinery or whatever it is being able to cure anything once it is turned into a Cylon, what is the problem if a human who smokes develops a serious medical condition because of it...? And has to deal with the after effects thereof, sort of like Laura Rosalin (Madam President)?

As I said, I find it doubtful that such a habit and condition would be used in this program. I know chronic smokers with emphasema and COPD, and one person with a collapsed lung because of chain smoking. If realism is the heart of this BSG series, there is nothing out of the ordinary for a human to develop chronic respiratory problems to the point of requiring a lung transplant. What if the transplanted lung came from a humanoid Cylon? Is it a human organ or machine? What parts of the human Cylon copies make them Cylon?

========
Before I forget, I prefer to leave the political and war stuff to those people who favor those aspects of the story. If current events inspire the realism of warfare in battle or politics, so be it. Character bantering between Apollo and Adama provides hard family drama. Zarek and his cronies toss a mystery spy element into the works.

But so far, it's the harder "real-life" philosophical issues that I've been reading about and sharing upon occasion that attempts to understand how or why the new Cylons are experimenting on mimicking the human spiritual condition. If a Cylon is a machine, it has no soul. Once it dies, their program simply terminates. It cannot ascend, so to speak, or enter the world of ether-reality (different dimension on a spiritual level of existence).

What exactly will the Cylons gain by making hybrid human-Cylons? A soul they're only curious about? To gain control over beyond death in the spirital domain as well as the physical domain of reality? Naturally, this is sci-fi, and only a sci-fi based answer will probably make sense of that; but it does add an interesting element to the BSG story.

What I'd like to know is if this particular BSG series will hold true to the prophecy:
that what has happened in the past is happening again, and will happen again in the future all over (and over) again...

...or will the Cylons break that cycle. Or as Number Six sort of hinted, is there a part of the prophecy that makes the Cylons the victors of that prophecy, and the humans the losers, even after finding earth?

This new version of BSG raises questions that have existed since before Data "became" humanized on Star Trek. If mankind successfully builds a "robot being" that can think and feel for itself, etc., is there a point where a machine can gain a soul, and if in reality humans are mere machines on a biological level, do they really transcend into an afterlife somewhere, or simply cease to exist?

[SGalisa]

After Sci-Fi "BSG" marathon reactions...
felt compelled to update... As I've mentioned before, watching BSG for 2nd and 3rd viewings is not something I could easily get into, so I wouldn't normally go out of my way, just to watch during those repeat rounds. However...

Originally posted by Darth Buddha:
I suggest you try watching it again. It's worth the effort.

okay, I honestly *tried* to that during the marathon. Saw the same eps and things previously seen. The little I did miss visually, I tried re-examining and seeing if I was wrong in what I missed (answer: not really...). I actually get more from reading the viewer commentary topics on the various web sites, after the eps air, and absorb the details more that way, instead of sitting thru an actual episode itself.

As noted in my re-edited text (above post # 9), I still had problems with the excessive camera movement. Had to listen via headphones thru some of it, again. The slow-motion filming helped in the finale eps. Otherwise, on a symbolic level: I'd attribute the constant shakiness to the chaotic-ness of the storyline situations.

Found a *reality - effect* blooper *funny*, too! There was a meeting scene between Adama and Laura (Madam President) during the time when Kobol was discovered and revealed, etc. They looked like they were either in his library or her office (don't remember which). But since they are supposed to be traveling in outer space, I heard raindrops falling on the windows or roof... it got very loud at one point, too! meteor showers?

Since these eps are supposed to be filmed mostly in sound-proofed stages, it could have been an air-conditioner belt that just sounded like rain... It's amazing what details can be picked up via hearing, instead of just *watching*.