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fair_nymph
July 1st, 2005, 08:57 AM
I've been pretty satisfied with the hand-to-hand combat scenes so far in BSG, with the very notable (in my mind) exception of the scene between Six and Starbuck in the museum on Caprica.

Now I've heard that according to TPTB, Starbuck was fighting with boxing techniques and Six with martial arts. There was definitely a marked difference in their fighting styles, that's for sure.

What bothered me about the scene was how poorly Starbuck appeared to be fighting. She looked clumsy IMO, and didn't do very well (Six was really pounding her), and I just didnt find that realistic. Starbuck is very strong for a woman, and we haven't seen that human model cylons are extra strong, or anything like that. Starbuck definitely had a weight advantage over Six, and I imagine she is well trained to fight based on her military experience. So why was so she being beaten so easily? And why did she look so clumsy (that's the best way I can think of describing it) ? It just struck me as SO out of character.

Any thoughts on the matter are appreciated. :)

Scoobing
July 1st, 2005, 09:03 AM
I see your point, but I think human form cylons are just as strong as their metal counterparts, or perhaps more confident in their abilities. I know there's no strong evidence to back up the idea, but Six's glowing spine may have meant it was metal and therefore stronger. When she shielded Baltar from the blast in the mini she used her body as a shield, suggesting it was stronger.

Blade Runner
July 1st, 2005, 09:32 AM
Its all part of the on going storyline, you will find out more about it in season 2

TameFarrar
July 1st, 2005, 10:49 AM
I think Scoobing hit on all of the points that came to my mind almost immediately as well. Even though Six did die in the bomb blast her *shell* did protect Baltar. Six told Baltar she would die when it hit. But the fact that she could keep him alive definitely says something.

Although I am inclined to think that the Cylons aren't that much *stronger* because Cmdr Adama was able to beat the one guy fairly soundly, granted he had some pretty severe radiation posioning and that may be why. Six has the benefit of not being incapacitated in any way while Starbuck had just done an incrdible FTL jump that I am sure took something out of her and possibly was considered disorienting. Also depending on the hits she was taking could she have been considered *dazed* on top of everything else?

I think very often the martial arts fighters usually do get the better of the street brawlers and definitely look more graceful doing it. That in itself may be yet another reason the fight looked *sloppy* to you...

Heck I am just guessing here. I know a couple of times I too was like "Starbuck hit her ass!!!!" but I think in the end the fight scene was supposed to convey a beaten Starbuck taking that desparate leap for that very reason...she was being beaten. She was tired both physically and emotionally and now she had to fight for her life. add into that the bum knee. So in order for the scene to get to the point where Starbuck was willing to risk it all by taking that jump she had to be beaten to that point.

Now Blade Runner why do you sound like you know more and you are not telling us :D

yaaayoubetcha
July 1st, 2005, 12:28 PM
I've always just assumed that they were superior to humans in terms of strength, speed and endurance.

Boomer showed that they don't apparently get tired during the ep they spent running around the countryside and sewers. And, as pointed out, Six shielded Baltar from the blast of the distant nuke...

fair_nymph
July 1st, 2005, 04:50 PM
I forgot about Boomer having better endurance...and Six shielding Baltar. Those are good points, do help explain why Six was so easily able to kick Starbuck's butt.

However, I still don't think Starbuck would be that clumsy of a fighter. She's such an elegant pilot;I just don't see how she could be SO graceless in hand to hand.

Hopefully Blade is right and we will get some more answers in a couple weeks.

BackStageJim
July 1st, 2005, 05:21 PM
One tidbit on the fight between Six and Starbuck in the museum was in using the arrow. Katee actually niped Tricia's chin during the fight.

Depending when you feel the fight was good/bad could depend on when the actors dialed back a bit.

spg_1983
July 1st, 2005, 05:35 PM
However, I still don't think Starbuck would be that clumsy of a fighter. She's such an elegant pilot;I just don't see how she could be SO graceless in hand to hand.
well personally i think that they were striving for that kind of contrast on purpose. in the cockpit starbuck has no equal, she is the absolute perfect fighter pilot combining pure skill with nerve and just enough recklessness to put her in a catagory above everyone else. but on the ground she is a fish out of water. its on the ground where she tends to screw up and get into trouble. she is also a very straight forward, in your face type person. i think her straight forward street fighting style is exactly like her on the ground. its unrefined, parially uncontrolled and she gets in trouble.

LoneStar1836
July 1st, 2005, 10:37 PM
Starbuck strikes me as a scrappy fighter, without the focus on being graceful, because of her personality. That’s why I agree with how spg_1983 described her above.

My only criticism of the fight was that the sequence went on just a tad too long. I didn’t find it that hard to believe that Starbuck was getting her tail whipped. The human Cylons are stronger and quicker than the average human as evident when Leoben snapped free of his handcuffs in “Flesh and Bone” or at least that’s why I think they are as well as for the examples cited above by others. He only let himself be restrained and interrogated otherwise he could have easily killed Starbuck or a guard.

Sci-Fi
July 2nd, 2005, 01:59 AM
Human Cylons have been shown to have superior strength and endurance. The mini-series: the Adama and Leoben fight. Even in a weakened condition, Leoben was able to lift and choke Adama with one hand and arm plus break a pipe off. Sharon running through the sewers with Helo: she never seems to get tired, plus lifting the manhole cover that weighs about 150 lbs while standing on a ladder. And of course in "Flesh and Blood" when Leoben breaks his shackles and tells Starbuck that he could separate her spine from her body before the guards could stop him.

But lets look at the KLG fight scene. 6 certainly can run a lot faster, maybe up to 65 mph from the looks of it and a lot quicker. A trained martial arts expert can easily defeat a street brawler style, if it's one-on-one. A quicker, economy of movement, yet devastating punching power vs berserk mayhem using whatever is at hand and much chewing of ears and noses. Although Starbuck got in a few good punches and kicks, 6 just toyed with her and the outcome was never in doubt. But 6 made a fatal mistake by not finishing Starbuck and allowed Starbuck to make that last lunge that threw both into the opening to the lower floor. Yes, Starbuck should of had some military martial arts or self defense training, especially when faced with fighting a mechanical Cylon which they did know about. The possibility of hand-to-hand combat must be anticipated by military personnel. Starbuck needed to find a spot in the room, maybe a few feet from a wall or corner, where her back was protected and her sight of vision could cover the rest or an escape route. This was a fight to the death so one needs to find as many advantages as possible or at least a defensible position. Plus some feel 6 wanted to torture Starbuck as long as possible after sleeping with Baltar before allowing her to win so Starbuck could return the "Arrow of Apollo" to the RTF (if that was part of the Cylon plan).

Apparently, the writers wanted to show different fighting styles, so that is what the viewers ended up with. At least they should have let Starbuck pull out a bumper jack or something to even up the odds and inflict noticeable damage on 6. The audience should have some hope that she could prevail or at least give a good account of herself. Personally, I wonder what happened to Starbuck's survival (or Swiss Army Knife...lol..j/k) knife and why she never used it. Also if Starbuck knew she was going back to Caprica, why didn't she equip herself properly with more weapons, like a backup pistol, extra knife, and/or even a machine gun and grenades. Why not land on the roof and wait until dusk and scout the surrounding area and the building for any Cylon patrols from that vantage point before trying to recover the arrow?

There hasn't been any evidence, so far, that the Cylons have superior night vision. The mechanical Cylons in the cafe couldn't detect Helo from their eye sensors and apparently aren't equipped with heat sensors either. What are the chances the human models are enhanced in those areas? Starbuck needed to conserve energy and make every strike at 6 count. But if that 6 model knew where Starbuck would be, then even if she killed 6, another Cylon might have shown up to resume the fight. That scenario would have been more interesting and given the last gasp lunge more weight.

:p ;) :) :D

Thor's Pal
July 2nd, 2005, 02:26 PM
There's also a nonther thing to remmeber: Starbuck might not had full use of her leg. I think she might have still been limping from when she brock her leg. I'm not a 100% sure about that, but if it was the case- it would explain some of her stiffness in figting.

jmallx
July 3rd, 2005, 10:50 PM
I'd have to disagree with the following statement.

There hasn't been any evidence, so far, that the Cylons have superior night vision. The mechanical Cylons in the cafe couldn't detect Helo from their eye sensors and apparently aren't equipped with heat sensors either.

The humanoid cylons didn't want the centurions to find Helo. They wanted Helo and C-Boomer to create a Human/Cyclon Baby.

They knew he was there. But they were herding him to a nearby farmhouse where there were supplies and the surrounding area would be patrolled by Centurions to stop him from escaping.

Just my 2 cents.

Man I love this show.





Human Cylons have been shown to have superior strength and endurance. The mini-series: the Adama and Leoben fight. Even in a weakened condition, Leoben was able to lift and choke Adama with one hand and arm plus break a pipe off. Sharon running through the sewers with Helo: she never seems to get tired, plus lifting the manhole cover that weighs about 150 lbs while standing on a ladder. And of course in "Flesh and Blood" when Leoben breaks his shackles and tells Starbuck that he could separate her spine from her body before the guards could stop him.

But lets look at the KLG fight scene. 6 certainly can run a lot faster, maybe up to 65 mph from the looks of it and a lot quicker. A trained martial arts expert can easily defeat a street brawler style, if it's one-on-one. A quicker, economy of movement, yet devastating punching power vs berserk mayhem using whatever is at hand and much chewing of ears and noses. Although Starbuck got in a few good punches and kicks, 6 just toyed with her and the outcome was never in doubt. But 6 made a fatal mistake by not finishing Starbuck and allowed Starbuck to make that last lunge that threw both into the opening to the lower floor. Yes, Starbuck should of had some military martial arts or self defense training, especially when faced with fighting a mechanical Cylon which they did know about. The possibility of hand-to-hand combat must be anticipated by military personnel. Starbuck needed to find a spot in the room, maybe a few feet from a wall or corner, where her back was protected and her sight of vision could cover the rest or an escape route. This was a fight to the death so one needs to find as many advantages as possible or at least a defensible position. Plus some feel 6 wanted to torture Starbuck as long as possible after sleeping with Baltar before allowing her to win so Starbuck could return the "Arrow of Apollo" to the RTF (if that was part of the Cylon plan).

Apparently, the writers wanted to show different fighting styles, so that is what the viewers ended up with. At least they should have let Starbuck pull out a bumper jack or something to even up the odds and inflict noticeable damage on 6. The audience should have some hope that she could prevail or at least give a good account of herself. Personally, I wonder what happened to Starbuck's survival (or Swiss Army Knife...lol..j/k) knife and why she never used it. Also if Starbuck knew she was going back to Caprica, why didn't she equip herself properly with more weapons, like a backup pistol, extra knife, and/or even a machine gun and grenades. Why not land on the roof and wait until dusk and scout the surrounding area and the building for any Cylon patrols from that vantage point before trying to recover the arrow?

There hasn't been any evidence, so far, that the Cylons have superior night vision. The mechanical Cylons in the cafe couldn't detect Helo from their eye sensors and apparently aren't equipped with heat sensors either. What are the chances the human models are enhanced in those areas? Starbuck needed to conserve energy and make every strike at 6 count. But if that 6 model knew where Starbuck would be, then even if she killed 6, another Cylon might have shown up to resume the fight. That scenario would have been more interesting and given the last gasp lunge more weight.

:p ;) :) :D