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Elwe Singollo
June 16th, 2004, 09:46 PM
For those who have read the brilliant 'the Silmarillion', wouldn't you guys think it would be almost impossible to make a movie of the book, with all the characters, and history.

SGSlugger
June 17th, 2004, 08:40 AM
I agree. The Silmarillion is essentially the complete history of Tolkien's middle-earth. You wouldn't be able to condense it into a movie. If you were serious about it, you'd have to do a tv miniseries, just to touch the epic scope of it.

Elwe Singollo
June 17th, 2004, 08:43 AM
Yah, one story about one tragic figure in the book could be a whole mini series, haha.

petzke_42
June 17th, 2004, 09:15 AM
I heard it was a difficult read, but I haven't read it myself.

Elwe Singollo
June 17th, 2004, 10:34 AM
Hmm, yah, read the book, and see if its hard to read, but i don't understand how its 'hard' to read.. Well unless they don't understand the way Tolkien writes, like... "All were dead, save her" Its all weird, hahah...

KorbenDirewolf
June 17th, 2004, 11:54 AM
Erm... well I think its hard to read for some people because The Silmarillion reads almost like a history textbook. I thought it was interesting, but didn't really enjoy reading it as much as most of his other works.

Elwe Singollo
June 17th, 2004, 07:12 PM
Yah, its not really an 'adventure' like LOTR, but i like how it tells of 'before' LOTR, and how Sauron wasn't really the 'biggest' threat.

SGSlugger
June 17th, 2004, 07:20 PM
Really it's an overview of the whole history of what happened in Middle-Earth. It goes from the creation of the world, till a little time after the War of the Rings (= it breifly touches on it.) It's not written along the lines of a novel, but more of a history book.

Elwe Singollo
June 17th, 2004, 09:16 PM
Even so, that 'history' -esque book is an interesting read to me, haha, and i don't like reading alot, haha.. I liked the war between the elves, and the chapter, "Of Beren and Luthien", i think thats the chapter name. That chapter was my favorite :)

Bogopimp
June 23rd, 2004, 07:26 AM
yeah, while it follows a story, it follows it in many differant ways. It would be very cool to see a series about it, "maybe". I mean, if it was done well. Otherwise i dont, because that books damned hard to read, and people just come along and see the film ? ach, that would be way rubbish!

SGSlugger
June 23rd, 2004, 07:29 AM
For me, it's a lot like a resource book. Need to look something up that pertains to Tolkien's world? Check the Silmarilion.

Bogopimp
June 23rd, 2004, 07:32 AM
For me, it's a lot like a resource book. Need to look something up that pertains to Tolkien's world? Check the Silmarilion.
noooo, it only documents part of the first age of middle earth, it not a complete reference atall!

If you want that, there are a few several thousand page, a4 sides books available with very small print, that documents it :)

Elwe Singollo
June 23rd, 2004, 11:52 AM
The only 'non' parts that aren't about the first age in the book is probably the first part talking about the Valar, Maiar, etc... and the beginning link to the lotr. But if have read the Lotr already, this is the book you want to read if you want to go even deeper into history.

Bogopimp
June 23rd, 2004, 01:22 PM
the time of the valar is the first age isnt it ? the first age is the age of the elves, and they were pre man, but after dwarves (on slightly because the god woke them early in the halls where moria is now). I thought that was the first age. With ungoliant and everything.

Elwe Singollo
June 23rd, 2004, 07:37 PM
The First Age started right after the Noldor Elves stole the Teleri ships returned to Middle-Earth, the comming of Men, and yes, the awakening of the Dwarves. If i said the Valar wasn't part of the First Age, i meant that they had little part to it, little, but big. Pre First Age is like before the Noldor returned to Middle Earth, so yah, the Valar were part of the First Age.

Iskandra
June 24th, 2004, 03:13 AM
*Ahem* Me being a Tolkien scholar of sorts (I even do papers at conferences ;)), I have to clarify: The published Silmarillion is what Tolkien's son could manage to scrape together in the 1970s, and it's about all Three Ages until the War of the Ring...the dozen books with very small print are called History of Middle Earth and are more like a collection of all of Tolkien's manuscripts, with a lot of different versions of one and the same thing...e.g. many different versions of Lord of the Rings as Tolkien was in the middle of writing it and such.


I'd personally like to see the story of Annatar (Sauron) and the elves of Eregion, but that wouldn't be a PG movie if they also used the bits from "Unfinished Tales" (another Tolkien book with manuscripts...) - not nice what happened to Celebrimbor (the bloke who did the inscription on the Moria gate and was "boss" of the elven smiths)) :eek:

Greesha
June 24th, 2004, 07:17 AM
i read the silmarillion a while ago, don't remember too much. but it would be interesting to make a movie out of one or two of the stories, rather than the whole book. if they could make it a movie without making it suck.

Elwe Singollo
June 24th, 2004, 09:54 AM
I'd personally like to see the story of Annatar (Sauron) and the elves of Eregion, but that wouldn't be a PG movie if they also used the bits from "Unfinished Tales" (another Tolkien book with manuscripts...) - not nice what happened to Celebrimbor (the bloke who did the inscription on the Moria gate and was "boss" of the elven smiths)) :eek:I don't want to comment on our versions of Silmarillions we have been reading, because the one i've been reading does include the war of the ring and such, but thats not what i want to talk about right now.. Haha, yes, poor Celebrimbor!!! But although i'm quite harsh, he and the other eregion people were the stupid ones, because didn't Sauron originally go to Elrond and Gil-Galad first and they didn't accept him or something because they sensed evil? i forgot, its been a while, hehe, i need to some clarification on my second age :)

Elwe Singollo
June 24th, 2004, 03:15 PM
i read the silmarillion a while ago, don't remember too much. but it would be interesting to make a movie out of one or two of the stories, rather than the whole book. if they could make it a movie without making it suck.I thought the Three LotR movie adaptions were pretty good, although i was mad they cut out some of my favorite characters :(

Iskandra
June 25th, 2004, 04:11 AM
But although i'm quite harsh, he and the other eregion people were the stupid ones, because didn't Sauron originally go to Elrond and Gil-Galad first and they didn't accept him or something because they sensed evil? i forgot, its been a while, hehe, i need to some clarification on my second age :)

Yeah well...it wasn't that he came to Eregion looking like Evil Sauron (tm) and threatened anyone....he made himself look like a perfectly angelic blondie and was nice to people. He just offered knowledge and power. One of Tolkien's favourite topics - "power corrupts" :cool:

Greesha
June 25th, 2004, 08:19 AM
I thought the Three LotR movie adaptions were pretty good, although i was mad they cut out some of my favorite characters :(


i liked them too. i just meant that generally books-to-movies get lost in translation, and the book is always better.

what characters?

Elwe Singollo
June 25th, 2004, 09:45 AM
Well, they didn't 'completely' cut out them, they just briefly showed them, like for one second, and maybe not, because they never mention if it was them or not. Like Cirdan, mone of my favorite Sindar/Teleri elves :( I think he was one of the three elves who got one of the rings shown at the beginning of fotr, and they never mentioned Cirdan giving the ring to Gandalf. Sorry for the spoiling of the book, but i'm in rage, haha... They didn't show Goldberry, Radagast, and Tom Bombadil, and although they have small parts, i think they have pretty important parts, like how Tom Bombadil wasn't affected by the ring's power, which i thought was interesting.

Elwe Singollo
June 25th, 2004, 09:56 AM
Yeah well...it wasn't that he came to Eregion looking like Evil Sauron (tm) and threatened anyone....he made himself look like a perfectly angelic blondie and was nice to people. He just offered knowledge and power. One of Tolkien's favourite topics - "power corrupts" :cool:Yah, i guess Celebrimbor couldn't refuse that :) Haha, i liked how you described Sauron disguised, 'he made himself look like a perfectly angelic blondie and was nice to people', hehe that was entertaining... :) I guess "power curruption" is one of Sauron's special abilities, since he did corrupt the Numenoreans and they became pretty powerful and wise, difference is, the nation of Numenoreans were descendants of Elros, who was Elronds brother, except he was human, well 'super human', haha...

Lee
March 30th, 2005, 04:07 PM
I think they should take some of the individual stories like Beren and Luthian or Turin and make movies out of them.

Tain
March 30th, 2005, 06:08 PM
Wouldn't be possible, well not if you wanted it to be good anyway. It would be like trying to film any of the Hindu epics: too long, and too much divine intervention.

Dahak
March 30th, 2005, 06:25 PM
The Silmarillion explains a lot of things that didn't really add up in the LOTR books. Like why Sauron acts the way he does. He needs to ring to regain his body or he needs one of the white counsel to use it so he can posses them.
Also it explains a lot about the Elves and why they act the way they are also making the Elves into real characters instead of just leprachauns is a big plus. The Dwarves also are great. The reasons why the Orcs fight huge wars every 500 years is also mentioned.
But I really hate the gods. Boy what a bunch of lazy jerks. Even in the First Age most of the Elves and all of the Dwarves and humans are innocent of the Finwe clan's crimes. Then after they beat Morgoth they let Sauron say "uhm sorry about killing 10 million people we cool now" and walk away. Then they kill who knows how many innocent people (besides the Numenors) by making a huge tidal wave when they made the world round. Oh but they sent 5 count em 5 sorcerers 2,000 years later. Wow they truly are gods.

twiggy
April 2nd, 2005, 02:22 PM
this has almost nothing to do with this thread but o well.
when i first read the "trilogy" i thought that elves were short little things (like santa's elves) so i was like "why would aragorn fall for one?"

VirtualCLD
April 3rd, 2005, 08:49 AM
I found it a hard read by just trying to keep track of all of the names. I was constantly flipping back and forth trying to remember who's who and what's what. It took me all four years in college to learn all 15 names of my ECE classmates, that's how bad I am with names.

Elwe Singollo
April 4th, 2005, 04:30 PM
I found it a hard read by just trying to keep track of all of the names. I was constantly flipping back and forth trying to remember who's who and what's what. It took me all four years in college to learn all 15 names of my ECE classmates, that's how bad I am with names.Oh wow, i know what you mean, but i fell in love with one particular family, Luthien's family, and i memorized from there. Yes, that doesn't sound like it worked, but yah, there is a lot of names/characters in this book. It really doesn't help when the characters have different names, like Melkor/Morgoth, and Sauron/Forgot his other name(s), etc.

shovar
April 4th, 2005, 11:38 PM
shouldn't they do a film of the Hobbit first before they do the Silmarillion

Mr Prophet
April 5th, 2005, 12:31 AM
Well, they didn't 'completely' cut out them, they just briefly showed them, like for one second, and maybe not, because they never mention if it was them or not. Like Cirdan, mone of my favorite Sindar/Teleri elves :( I think he was one of the three elves who got one of the rings shown at the beginning of fotr, and they never mentioned Cirdan giving the ring to Gandalf. Sorry for the spoiling of the book, but i'm in rage, haha... They didn't show Goldberry, Radagast, and Tom Bombadil, and although they have small parts, i think they have pretty important parts, like how Tom Bombadil wasn't affected by the ring's power, which i thought was interesting.

I don't think the book of The Lord of the Rings actually mentions how Gandalf got his ring, or if it's there it's only in passing. That's part of the Histories.

What got my goat was Celeborn getting on the boat with Galadriel, because he can't do that! He's not allowed into the West, it's this huge tragic thing because he can't go and she can't stay! Of course, that's basically Silmarillion territory as well.

Radagast was there; he was being played by a large hawk moth, but it was brown!

And Tom Bombadil was cut for a very simple reason: He's a pointless and irritating waste of space, based on a doll, who was included in the original as an act of pure indulgence and has rightly been excised from all adaptations ever! He's the nearest Tolkien gets to a blatant Mary Sue. Tom Bombadil isn't affected by the ring because he's dead kewl and he's all that, or possibly just because he is in no way important or relevant to the story of the Ring in any way, shape or form. The only thing of consequence in the entire section is the finding of the Numenorian daggers.

I teach seven-year olds in primary school. Only one of them knows anything about the book of Lord of the Rings and his favourite characters are Tom and Goldberry. I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry.

If it needs saying, the above is all my opinion, by the by.

Elwe Singollo
April 5th, 2005, 02:10 PM
I don't think the book of The Lord of the Rings actually mentions how Gandalf got his ring, or if it's there it's only in passing. That's part of the Histories.

What got my goat was Celeborn getting on the boat with Galadriel, because he can't do that! He's not allowed into the West, it's this huge tragic thing because he can't go and she can't stay! Of course, that's basically Silmarillion territory as well.

Radagast was there; he was being played by a large hawk moth, but it was brown!

And Tom Bombadil was cut for a very simple reason: He's a pointless and irritating waste of space, based on a doll, who was included in the original as an act of pure indulgence and has rightly been excised from all adaptations ever! He's the nearest Tolkien gets to a blatant Mary Sue. Tom Bombadil isn't affected by the ring because he's dead kewl and he's all that, or possibly just because he is in no way important or relevant to the story of the Ring in any way, shape or form. The only thing of consequence in the entire section is the finding of the Numenorian daggers.

I teach seven-year olds in primary school. Only one of them knows anything about the book of Lord of the Rings and his favourite characters are Tom and Goldberry. I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry.

If it needs saying, the above is all my opinion, by the by.I have to totally agree with you view on Tom Bombadil, which really sounds like a good explanation why they didn't use him.

I also just realized what you said about Celeborn and Galadriel is really confusing as well! Hmm...:cool:

Mr Prophet
April 5th, 2005, 02:22 PM
I also just realized what you said about Celeborn and Galadriel is really confusing as well! Hmm...:cool:

Well in the movie it's just not a thing that he's a Noldor (is that right; it's been a couple of years) and she's a ringbearer, so I guess they figured why not go for a slightly happier ending.

Elwe Singollo
April 5th, 2005, 02:40 PM
Well in the movie it's just not a thing that he's a Noldor (is that right; it's been a couple of years) and she's a ringbearer, so I guess they figured why not go for a slightly happier ending.Im pretty sure Celeborn is a Sindar elf, so yah, i can't see why he can't go, i think i forgot to read something, but i thought he wasn't banned, he just decided not to go to Valinor yet.

Mr Prophet
April 5th, 2005, 03:03 PM
Im pretty sure Celeborn is a Sindar elf, so yah, i can't see why he can't go, i think i forgot to read something, but i thought he wasn't banned, he just decided not to go to Valinor yet.

IIRC, those who didn't go in the first place were barred forever after. I don't even think Celeborn had been born at the time, but his race aren't allowed.

Elwe Singollo
April 5th, 2005, 03:16 PM
IIRC, those who didn't go in the first place were barred forever after. I don't even think Celeborn had been born at the time, but his race aren't allowed.I remember now, thanks. :) Gosh, thats booty then, haha... Oh well, at least Elwing got to go. :rolleyes:

Does anyone just go '???!!!' when they look at family trees, and see how Celeborn and Galadriel are related in a way?

Galadriel, daughter of Finarfin (King of Noldor) and Earwen (Niece of Elwe/Thingol).

Celeborn, son of Galadhon (son of Elmo, brother of Elwe/Thingol).

So pretty much they are like... second cousins? I get really confused on family trees... Haha...

Dahak
April 5th, 2005, 03:25 PM
OK I could be wrong but here is what I think is going on with the various Elves. Any Sindar is allowed to go "to the west" basicly a heaven/Xanadu type of place where the gods live.
Galadrial probably can't go because she is the only Noldorian Elf with noble blood that was alive at the time. Almost all of her family got killed which is roughly what the Silmarlillion is about. I am not sure if the other Noldorian Elves who helped the Finwe clan steal the boats and killed the other tribe of Elves are allowed back if they didn't take the "amnesty" after the first age was over. I do remember that most went back and had to face some sort of punishment.
After all Elrond was able to go back to the west and he was born in the first age. The gods aren't mad at the Sindar for being there or even for not coming back. They were mad at the Noldorian Elves for killing their cousins. So I doubt that any Noldorian Elves born in Middle Earth would face their parents punishment.

Elwe Singollo
April 5th, 2005, 03:41 PM
Galadrial probably can't go because she is the only Noldorian Elf with noble blood that was alive at the time.What do you mean by noble? Someone who has been to Valinor/the West?

After all Elrond was able to go back to the west and he was born in the first age. The gods aren't mad at the Sindar for being there or even for not coming back. They were mad at the Noldorian Elves for killing their cousins. So I doubt that any Noldorian Elves born in Middle Earth would face their parents punishment.Also, if i remember, that all Noldor born from 'oathbreakers' or whatever that came to ME was 'cursed', hence Finduilas, 'the doomed daughter of Orodreth'. Also, Elrond was also Noldor, from his fathers side.

Mr Prophet
April 5th, 2005, 11:45 PM
Galadriel can go because she's a ringbearer and all ringbearers have to leave in order to end the Third Age. I may be wrong about Celeborn, but I was sure it was mentioned somewhere...Oh well.

Elwe Singollo
April 6th, 2005, 07:04 PM
Galadriel can go because she's a ringbearer and all ringbearers have to leave in order to end the Third Age. I may be wrong about Celeborn, but I was sure it was mentioned somewhere...Oh well.Well yah, i understand why Galadriel went, because 'she overcame the seduction of the ring' or something like that, but yes, the whole Celeborn thing your talking about is something familiar, or 'sounds' familiar at least. :)

Dahak
April 6th, 2005, 08:14 PM
What do you mean by noble? Someone who has been to Valinor/the West?
Also, if i remember, that all Noldor born from 'oathbreakers' or whatever that came to ME was 'cursed', hence Finduilas, 'the doomed daughter of Orodreth'. Also, Elrond was also Noldor, from his fathers side.

Galadriel is the only descendant of Finwe that left Valinor. She is part of the Royal Family. The curse was lifted at the end when Elrond's parents went back to Valinor and sang a song about how much ME sucked. Morgoth had pretty much won at that time but the gods and the Elves in Valinor felt sorry for them so sent an army to help out. Of course they were stupid and LET Sauron go.
Yes Elrond is a quarter Noldor, quarter Sindar, and 2 quarters human (of 2 different noble lines). Add his brother into it who all the Numenors are descended from and his wife who I think was Legalos's aunt or something like that he is related to pretty much everyone. Must be hard to find a date if you are an Elf. Eternal life spans and really low birthrates would make it pretty tough.

Elwe Singollo
April 7th, 2005, 05:13 PM
Galadriel is the only descendant of Finwe that left Valinor. She is part of the Royal Family. The curse was lifted at the end when Elrond's parents went back to Valinor and sang a song about how much ME sucked. Morgoth had pretty much won at that time but the gods and the Elves in Valinor felt sorry for them so sent an army to help out. Of course they were stupid and LET Sauron go.
Yes Elrond is a quarter Noldor, quarter Sindar, and 2 quarters human (of 2 different noble lines). Add his brother into it who all the Numenors are descended from and his wife who I think was Legalos's aunt or something like that he is related to pretty much everyone. Must be hard to find a date if you are an Elf. Eternal life spans and really low birthrates would make it pretty tough.I guess Elves live without birth defects when having a child with someone your related to? Haha... Oh well, there are more disturbing things in Tolkien's brain... Especially that part about possible ways for an Elf to die, "..great grief" or something, to me, sounds 'poetic', but i dont know how, it just does, haha... Could you add the Maia blood that Elrond possibly has through Melian?

Seastallion
April 17th, 2005, 09:17 AM
I found the Silmarillion very informative, in the context of trying to understand the world of Middle Earth. I was fascinated by the concept of the universe being made from 'music'. That was something that was part of Greek mythology, and even more notable in light of String Theory in physics. It is a beautiful way of imagining the creation of the universe, and the fact it is a real life theory as well (albeit, not quite the same as in the book) just makes it that much better.

I was also delighted to have a better understanding of Gandalf. He wasn't just a Wizard, he was in fact, what christians would refer to as an Angel. It took a bit for me to figure that out, because I had to sort of get all the deities straight. There was the 'Source', or the one true God, then there were the 14 High gods. Then below them were the lower gods, and below them what might be called Arch Angels. After that was Gandalfs race, which might be thought of as Angels (as opposed to ArchAngels), and he was considered to be among the wisest and most important of them.

Also, understanding Aragorns lineage helped me to understand the importance of his marriage to Arwen. (technically they're REALLY distant cousins) The whole idea was to restore the lost glory of the Numenorean race, which was founded by Elrond's brother, then to be restored by Elrond's daughter. I liked the book, but I also found it an odd read... It doesn't flow like a 'novel' does, and that makes it harder to keep up with.

Dahak
April 17th, 2005, 10:19 AM
Yeah Aragorn and Arwen would have been what? Like 2nd cousins 189times removed? It can be hard for me to keep my cousins straight and none of them are imortal.

ConspiraciesAreFUN
April 17th, 2005, 10:48 AM
An idea that Japanese TV uses is instead of a Series be on a linear timeline, They'll run a season, and if it does well, they'll run another series that takes place say 20 years later. And since Elves are immortal and all, age wouldn't be a large casting nightmare.

The Legend of Feanor, starring Dolph Lundgren!! (sorry, i'll go chop a finger off for that one).

Major Clanger
April 17th, 2005, 12:41 PM
I'll be reading The Silmarillion this year, after I've cantered through LOTR. I have read TS twice, and can't remember much apart from poor ol' ...er, was it Maedros (sp?) being rescued from the walls by having his hand cut off.

It is a major whump fest, but the writing is soooo dry I almost wish that someone would make a 47bazillion part adaptation of it simply to save me having to read the first two parts. bah.

Mr.P, thanks for saying all that about Tom Bombadill, btw. I can't stand that character, he drives me bonkers. Although it is a pity that they left Old Man Willow out of the film, because it's Merry & Pippin's experience with him that shows up some of their courage when they meet Treebeard.

What would be interesting, though, would be a history of the Dwarves, and exactly why they and the Elves aren't exactly the bestest of friends. As a TV series I mean.

Elwe Singollo
April 17th, 2005, 02:20 PM
What would be interesting, though, would be a history of the Dwarves, and exactly why they and the Elves aren't exactly the bestest of friends. As a TV series I mean.Oo, as a tv series wouldn't be so bad about the Dwarves history! I'm a bit confused though, but wouldn't the reason why they don't like each other is because... how the Dwarves killed Elves back in the Silmarillion (although i'm a bit confused since most of the damage the Dwarves inflicted was towards the Sindar)

Dahak
April 17th, 2005, 05:30 PM
Actaully the fault for the Elf/Dwarf war were pretty much even. The original problem came up when Theodred or whatever Elrond's great-grandfather (the High King of the Sindars) use them to put one of the Silmarillions in a necklace. The Dwarves wanted to steal it and the King didn't want to pay them. Then the King pretty much called them a bunch of short *******s so they killed him. Also if I remember correctly there were only 2 or 3 actual wars in 8,000 years you think both sides would let things go.
In all of the stories the Dwarves sure get hosed. They are put there by the gods and then completely neglected. The only help they receive is the spill over help that the Elves get. I can see why they don't really like the Elves who really aren't very likeable.

Elwe Singollo
April 17th, 2005, 08:27 PM
Actaully the fault for the Elf/Dwarf war were pretty much even. The original problem came up when Theodred or whatever Elrond's great-grandfather (the High King of the Sindars) use them to put one of the Silmarillions in a necklace. The Dwarves wanted to steal it and the King didn't want to pay them. Then the King pretty much called them a bunch of short *******s so they killed him. Also if I remember correctly there were only 2 or 3 actual wars in 8,000 years you think both sides would let things go.
In all of the stories the Dwarves sure get hosed. They are put there by the gods and then completely neglected. The only help they receive is the spill over help that the Elves get. I can see why they don't really like the Elves who really aren't very likeable.The killing of Thingol doesn't explain their hatred for all elves though like Major C says, although maybe i am misunderstanding, and Major C only means the Teleri-Descent elves (the ones that are somehow connected to Thingol)???

Yes poor Dwarves (my favorite race) :( I think they were mistreated because they weren't made by Eru, who created everything else, but were made by Aule, or somehow related to that...

Also, 2 or 3 actual wars? Which wars would those be?

If you go to http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/ > then to Events (way at the bottom of the navigation frame, it shows the wars, battles, etc of most of the ME history, i dont know about 'letting things go', because in the wars and stuff, the Dwarves were usually helping the Elves (well really only the Noldor), so maybe the 'grudge' towards one and another is between the Teleri descent people and the Dwarves only???