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NotAllowedToNameAnything.Ever.
April 23rd, 2005, 06:43 PM
Please forgive me but this contains parts of deffrent threads.

Stargates work on the prenciple that you need six points and a point of depature. And of course an eight to destingiush galaxy. (Galactic area code.) But wouldn't say mars have the same gate address as earth since on a galactic scale they would have simular night skys. If two civilations where develop on two deffrient planets (like in the tollan home system) would they use one stargate (possably explaing why some are in space.) or would they have seperate star gates and an extra cheveron is required (Sort of an extension number.)

_Owen_
April 23rd, 2005, 07:18 PM
No there can be more than one stargate in a solar system. First lets go to stargate basics, six points are required to specify a position in space, however these six points must be large enough to encompas the entire orbit of a planet. Think of it like this, if you used points is space 3cm in length specify the position, the position would contain the total area of 3cm^3, if you use points that are 2million meters in length the spot were they intersect will be 2 million mteres ^3. The points the the stargates use to specify planets will vary in size, depending on how large the orbit of the planet is. Ok now we go to how there could be more than one stargate on a planet. When the stargate dials it will search the outermost area of the specified point in space for a gate, the area that it searches will be only the maximum diameter of the planet. If the gate is buuried it won't activate, you wouldn't want to go there anyways, if the planet has drifted out of its orbit and is closer to the sun, you wouldn't want to go there because the decaying orbit of the planet would take it straight into the sun. If the planet has drifted out of its orbit, farther away from the sun, bad things have probably happend.

If there is a stargate on a planet farther from the sun, then it will not be found because the gate will not search out that far, and if there is a gate on a planet closer to the sun, it will not be recognized because the gate will not search in that far.

Also the 8th chevron is not a galactic area code, it is a distance calculation to send the wormhole farther than normal.

Hope I could help.

Owen Macri

morjana
April 23rd, 2005, 07:31 PM
Please forgive me but this contains parts of deffrent threads.

Stargates work on the prenciple that you need six points and a point of depature. And of course an eight to destingiush galaxy. (Galactic area code.) But wouldn't say mars have the same gate address as earth since on a galactic scale they would have simular night skys. If two civilations where develop on two deffrient planets (like in the tollan home system) would they use one stargate (possably explaing why some are in space.) or would they have seperate star gates and an extra cheveron is required (Sort of an extension number.)


We've already seen in "Maternal Instinct" for example, that there can be more than one planet in a solar system with a Stargate. The planets of the Lac'na'ko. And they had all separate addresses.

That would indicate that there must a modification to the PoO for each planet that identifies it to that planet.

So you wouldn't need an extra chevron for multiple stargates within a solar system -- you only need to know the correct address.

Courtesy of Jackfic (thank you, Arnise!):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/morjana/11maternal-instrinct.jpg

Morjana

_Owen_
April 23rd, 2005, 07:35 PM
The point of origin would be completly diffrent because it would be identifying either a larger or smaller area, please see my previous post in this thread.

Owen Macri

Jarnin
April 24th, 2005, 03:14 AM
We've already seen in "Maternal Instinct" for example, that there can be more than one planet in a solar system with a Stargate. The planets of the Lac'na'ko. And they had all separate addresses.

That would indicate that there must a modification to the PoO for each planet that identifies it to that planet.

So you wouldn't need an extra chevron for multiple stargates within a solar system -- you only need to know the correct address.

Courtesy of Jackfic (thank you, Arnise!):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/morjana/11maternal-instrinct.jpg

Morjana

Those screens from the show don't mean anything. Notice that the Abydos Point of Origin is used as the second symbol in one of those addresses? So how do you dial the Abydos point of origin in the first 6 symbols if you're not on Abydos? You can't.

I have about 15 screen caps of addresses just like that; they're just randomly generated eye candy for the viewers.
In some they used symbols twice, which we've never seen used in the show, and in others they use points of origin in the first 6 symbols which doesn't seem possible, since points of origin are supposed to be planet specific.

Personally, I don't think that there can be more than one gate in a star system. We've never seen it in either series, so any arguement to the contrary is speculation.

Esquin
April 24th, 2005, 03:28 AM
Ok here we go Stargate wormhole address 101. A Stargate address requires 6 points in space to operate, these 6 points create 3 intersecting lines, at the center of these lines lays the center of the solar system in question. Now you add a point of origin you have a 7 symbol stargate address.

Ok there are the basics now each solar system can contain only one stargate, this is for several reasons the main 1 being it is impossable to distinguish between 2 gates in the same system. When this occurs thewormhole is directed to the gate with a DHD or the most used gate, in that order. Remeber that a planet moves over an area of roughly 2 AU's over the course of a year (1 AU equals the distance from Earth to the sun). So the stargate must be able to acomadate for this, obviously then the only way left to make two gates in the same system unique from each other would be to make the point of origins unique to each gate rather then each location in space. However because we know that Stargates are interchangable this cannot be the case.

The planets of the Lacnakor were also a in a sector not a system, a sector being a group of systems reletivly close together.

_Owen_
April 24th, 2005, 07:00 AM
No there can be more than one stargate in a solar system. First lets go to stargate basics, six points are required to specify a position in space, however these six points must be large enough to encompas the entire orbit of a planet. Think of it like this, if you used points is space 3cm in length specify the position, the position would contain the total area of 3cm^3, if you use points that are 2million meters in length the spot were they intersect will be 2 million mteres ^3. The points the the stargates use to specify planets will vary in size, depending on how large the orbit of the planet is. Ok now we go to how there could be more than one stargate on a planet. When the stargate dials it will search the outermost area of the specified point in space for a gate, the area that it searches will be only the maximum diameter of the planet. If the gate is buuried it won't activate, you wouldn't want to go there anyways, if the planet has drifted out of its orbit and is closer to the sun, you wouldn't want to go there because the decaying orbit of the planet would take it straight into the sun. If the planet has drifted out of its orbit, farther away from the sun, bad things have probably happend.

If there is a stargate on a planet farther from the sun, then it will not be found because the gate will not search out that far, and if there is a gate on a planet closer to the sun, it will not be recognized because the gate will not search in that far.

Also the 8th chevron is not a galactic area code, it is a distance calculation to send the wormhole farther than normal.

Hope I could help.

Owen Macri
Please read my post that I have quuoted above, it is not impossible to have two gates in one system.

Owen Macri

Esquin
April 24th, 2005, 08:56 PM
As I said your wrong in several matters. The wormhole is sent to the solar system not a speccific planet, once it reaches the solar system it latches onto the default stargate in that system be it on the inner most or outta most planet. It could not possably lock onto the planets co-ordinates because they would be constantly changing making it rather inefficiant. As you have said the 3 intersecting lines must encompass the entire orbit of the planet however there is no way to determine a orbit without including all the space within the orbit, this effectivly means that no other gates could operate inside the orbit of a planet using a different address.

I've read your post and while you have the basics right you are wrong in thinking that more then 1 stargate can operate in a system with different addresses. The main thing to remember is that size is a factor, when dealing with galactic scales we cannot be specific on more then a solar system level, there is no way that the stargate network could specify a planet in a solar system and we have proven that it doesn't even try by being able to activate stargates in space almost anywhere within a solar system.

Schrodinger's Cat
April 24th, 2005, 10:03 PM
As I said your wrong in several matters. The wormhole is sent to the solar system not a speccific planet, once it reaches the solar system it latches onto the default stargate in that system be it on the inner most or outta most planet. It could not possably lock onto the planets co-ordinates because they would be constantly changing making it rather inefficiant. As you have said the 3 intersecting lines must encompass the entire orbit of the planet however there is no way to determine a orbit without including all the space within the orbit, this effectivly means that no other gates could operate inside the orbit of a planet using a different address.

I've read your post and while you have the basics right you are wrong in thinking that more then 1 stargate can operate in a system with different addresses. The main thing to remember is that size is a factor, when dealing with galactic scales we cannot be specific on more then a solar system level, there is no way that the stargate network could specify a planet in a solar system and we have proven that it doesn't even try by being able to activate stargates in space almost anywhere within a solar system.


Why do you think that the DHD's constantly talk to each other? In this case, Stellar drift calculation just means POO re-calculation.

Klorel's ship was in orbit around Earth at the time that his stargate was used.

Jarnin
April 24th, 2005, 10:32 PM
As I said your wrong in several matters. The wormhole is sent to the solar system not a speccific planet, once it reaches the solar system it latches onto the default stargate in that system be it on the inner most or outta most planet. It could not possably lock onto the planets co-ordinates because they would be constantly changing making it rather inefficiant. As you have said the 3 intersecting lines must encompass the entire orbit of the planet however there is no way to determine a orbit without including all the space within the orbit, this effectivly means that no other gates could operate inside the orbit of a planet using a different address.
Another thing to note is that not all stars in the galaxy capable of supporting Earthlike planets are required to be exactly like our sun.
If a star is more massive than our sun, the Earth-like planet will be farther out, in some cases, possibly further out than Mars is in our system. In other cases with less massive stars, like red dwarfs, the planet might be so close to it's parent star that it's tidally locked to it, which means it's day is the same duration as it's year. In this case the habital zone would be on the terminator lines on the planet, which would be in a constant haze of almost day and almost night.

We've also seen plenty of episodes that show planets with multiple suns, simply because binary stars are much more frequently found in our galaxy, and triple systems are fairly common as well.
A perfect example is Alpha Centauri; the A Centauri Alpha and Beta stars orbit each other as close as 11 AU, which is about the distance from the sun to Saturn.


I've read your post and while you have the basics right you are wrong in thinking that more then 1 stargate can operate in a system with different addresses. The main thing to remember is that size is a factor, when dealing with galactic scales we cannot be specific on more then a solar system level, there is no way that the stargate network could specify a planet in a solar system and we have proven that it doesn't even try by being able to activate stargates in space almost anywhere within a solar system.
Exactly. How do you distinguish between orbits so close with a coordinate system that can only be defined by 38 increments, which also has to be able to span across 100,000 light years?

A question I rarely see being brought up is "What are they locking on to?". The symbols are supposed to represent constellations, but the constellations we can see in the night sky are all within 10,000 light years from Earth. That would mean that all the stargates in the galaxy would have to exist within 10,000 light years of Earth, but we know that isn't the case.

Personally, I think those symbols on the Stargates are just the ancients way of counting to 38, with the Point of Origin representing zero. The ancient people of Egpyt would have viewed those symbols as magical, and thus connecting the "gods" that used the Stargate with the stars, creating what we call constellations.


Why do you think that the DHD's constantly talk to each other?
Yes. It's called a "Automatic correlative update". They were originally thought to happen every few hundred years, but that hypothesis turned out to be incorrect. [Avenger 2.0]


In this case, Stellar drift calculation just means POO re-calculation.
The point of origin isn't an address. It doesn't require a re-caliculation, the address does. The symbols that supposedly "lock on" to whatever is what the DHD is re-calculating, since they're the reference point to find your destination in the first place.


Klorel's ship was in orbit around Earth at the time that his stargate was used.
Yes, and it was connected to a DHD, which was used to dial another planet in another system so Daniel could escape the Ha'tak exploding. This is not a problem.

_Owen_
April 25th, 2005, 12:05 PM
I'm sorry I should have been more specific. The stargate uses six points to determine a single point, by definiton a point has no area, so you would also include the information to say, this point expands out 300 meters, however big you need them to encompas only the orbit of the planet, when the three lines intersected. The orbit of the planet would be the distance that the outermost point of the planet travels around the sun. The information would also include exactly how far from the orbit the planet extends. So technically the points do encompass the entire orbit of the planet, but the stargate only scans the outermost area that is specified in the information stored in the coorelative update, for a non-active gate. If there is a gate on a planet that is farther out than another gate on another planet the sending gate will not scan far enough in to detect the other stargate and if vice versa if there is a stargate closer into the sun.

So yes you can have more than one gate in a solar system.

Owen Maci

Esquin
April 25th, 2005, 04:43 PM
Owen Macri you are in fact wrong about that. There is no way for the information your talking about to be included in the gate address. The 6 sybmbols represent 6 points in space forming 3 intersecting lines. This address is essentially unique to a system and encompasses the whole system. It is theorised that the gate only goes out a certain distance in search of a stargate but the distance is the same always the same and cannot be determined by the address.

You need to understand that there is noevidence to base your information on, infact all evidence says that you are wrong, only 1 gate can be active in a system at once as gate addreses are designated for systems not specific gates of sections of systems as it would simply be immpossable to do something like this.

Schrodinger's Cat
April 25th, 2005, 07:47 PM
There are 6P6, or 720, possible permutations for each of the 38C6, or 2760681, symbol combinations.

38C6 * 6P6 = 38P6 = 1987690320 = # of possible stargate addresses in this galaxy.

Also, what about the Lok'no system?

_Owen_
April 25th, 2005, 08:05 PM
You don't enter the information with the gate adress, it is included in the information about the location of the planet that is included with the corelative update.

This is the only way that the stargate could work (having information to say how large that points will expand to). By definiton a point has no area and no volume, yet it is a proven fact that the stargate uses six points in space to determine the location of a stargate. The only way to do this is include the information that says, this point, intersects with this point etc., and say this point expands out in a spherical shape with a radius of this large, it extends out in this direction this drection this direction, etc. This would be the only way to identify an area of space such as a solar system, with six point. Yes theoretically these points could encompass the entire system, however then the gate would have to scan a much larger area for a stargate, to shorten the information to encompass only the orbit of a planet, and then also to include how far away from the orbit the planet extends would not be harder, infact the only extra piece of data that would be included is how far from the orbit a the planet extends, then it would be a smaller area to search and it would you would also be able to have more than one gate in a system.

Both of our points are saying the same thing, the basics are that there is only one way to determine the location of a gate, I included this in my post, contrary to whatever you may think this is the only way the gate could connect with another gate (no offence). What we are arguning about is if there can be more than one gate in a system, basically based on the only plausible way of determining the location of a volume in space using only six points, will allow for more than one gate in a system. So there can be more than one gate in a solar system.

Owen Macri

spg_1983
April 25th, 2005, 08:11 PM
You need to understand that there is noevidence to base your information on, infact all evidence says that you are wrong, only 1 gate can be active in a system at once as gate addreses are designated for systems not specific gates of sections of systems as it would simply be immpossable to do something like this.
actually there is evidence. as someone already said, in "Maternal Instinct" it was stated that the planets in question were in the same system and each had a stargate. so it doesnt matter whether it seems illogical or you cant figure out how it would work, it was stated and shown explicitly in the show so it is canon that there can be more than one gate in a solar system.

Schrodinger's Cat
April 25th, 2005, 08:20 PM
actually there is evidence. as someone already said, in "Maternal Instinct" it was stated that the planets in question were in the same system and each had a stargate. so it doesnt matter whether it seems illogical or you cant figure out how it would work, it was stated and shown explicitly in the show so it is canon that there can be more than one gate in a solar system.
I don't think that everyone that has posted in this thread has seen that ep, so I'll link to the GW page for that episode. 3x20 "Maternal Instinct" GateWorld Summary. (http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s3/320.shtml)

Kayzersoze
April 25th, 2005, 08:27 PM
There are 6P6, or 720, possible permutations for each of the 38C6, or 2760681, symbol combinations.

38C6 * 6P6 = 38P6 = 1987690320 = # of possible stargate addresses in this galaxy.

Also, what about the Lok'no system?

Just curiously, why would there be different permutations for gate addresses? Wouldn't the six points always intersect at the same point in space, regardless of the order they're dialled?

Schrodinger's Cat
April 25th, 2005, 10:48 PM
Just curiously, why would there be different permutations for gate addresses? Wouldn't the six points always intersect at the same point in space, regardless of the order they're dialled?
Not really.....there are actually at least four points that could be generated with each permutation:


1,3,5
2,4,6
1,2,3
4,5,6


these could also combine in different ways: 1,2,3 = system; 4,5,6 = planet; 1,3,5 = 2 of system, one of planet; 2,4,6 = 1 of system, 2 of planet;......

4 points are needed to find any location in space.

The GPS system requires 4 sattelites in order to identify any location (with a three-meter range of error) on or in orbit of the planet Earth. Only 3 sattelites are required to identify a location on the surface, but only without accurate altitude measurement.

I'm not going to go into the geometry involved tonight....I'm too tired.


P.S. I'm good at math....but I won't be able to help you with your taxes...I'm too busy playing with my new Ancients Chair Room....

Jarnin
April 25th, 2005, 10:52 PM
actually there is evidence. as someone already said, in "Maternal Instinct" it was stated that the planets in question were in the same system and each had a stargate. so it doesnt matter whether it seems illogical or you cant figure out how it would work, it was stated and shown explicitly in the show so it is canon that there can be more than one gate in a solar system.
It was never stated that all those planets were in the same solar system.

From Maternal Instinct:
BRA'TAC
That story is told among Jaffa, is that OSIRIS hid on one of the planets of the Lok'na core.

DANIEL
What's that?

TEAL'C
A group of planets whose resources have been depleted by mining.

DANIEL
I don't suppose you happen to know the addresses of any of those planets?
Note that Teal'c says a group of planets, not a solar system.


BRA'TAC
There.
(He points to one set of co-ordinates)
Those are the planets of the Lok'na core.

DANIEL
What's the red one?

CARTER
We basically have two reference maps for Stargate addresses. Yellow represents the cartouche that the Goa'uld left on Abydos, and the addresses from the Ancients' original map of the Stargate is in red.
(To Bra'tac)
You don't recognise this address here?

BRA'TAC
No.

DANIEL
If the legend is true, the Goa'uld never would have included Kheb on their cartouche.

CARTER
Well this address is the only planet in the system that the Goa'uld didn't include on their map.
Now we see the word system, but it doesn't say solar system. Ever heard of a star system? That's two or more stars that orbit each other.

My point is that they never stated that all those planets were in the same solar system. More than likely, it was a star system that all had habitable planets with similar addresses, which is why they called it a system.

This would explain why the Goa'uld didn't know the address to Kheb; the planet was in an unexplored solar system of the Lok'na Core.

Schrodinger's Cat
April 25th, 2005, 10:59 PM
It was never stated that all those planets were in the same solar system.

From Maternal Instinct:
Note that Teal'c says a group of planets, not a solar system.


Now we see the word system, but it doesn't say solar system. Ever heard of a star system? That's two or more stars that orbit each other.

My point is that they never stated that all those planets were in the same solar system. More than likely, it was a star system that all had habitable planets with similar addresses, which is why they called it a system.

This would explain why the Goa'uld didn't know the address to Kheb; the planet was in an unexplored solar system of the Lok'na Core.


The Goa'uld knew about Kheb...Ra may have not wanted the Kheb address to be in an area where the Abydonians or his Jaffa could find it.

spg_1983
April 25th, 2005, 11:02 PM
It was never stated that all those planets were in the same solar system.

From Maternal Instinct:
Note that Teal'c says a group of planets, not a solar system.


Now we see the word system, but it doesn't say solar system. Ever heard of a star system? That's two or more stars that orbit each other.

My point is that they never stated that all those planets were in the same solar system. More than likely, it was a star system that all had habitable planets with similar addresses, which is why they called it a system.

This would explain why the Goa'uld didn't know the address to Kheb; the planet was in an unexplored solar system of the Lok'na Core.
the goa'uld didnt include the address because it was a forbidden planet, but they knew where it was.

yes she could have been talking about a star system but that would not make very much sense. a star system is another name for a stellar system. it is a system in which two or more stars orbit each other, and it is rare for there to be planets in such a system because of the gravitational forces at work. now a solar system on the other hand is a system with one or more planets in orbit around a sun. given the fact that they were talking specifically about planets it is most likely carter meant a solar system.

i dont know why you are knitpicking this terminology, it is pretty clear that they were saying the planets were all in the same solar system

Jarnin
April 25th, 2005, 11:29 PM
the goa'uld didnt include the address because it was a forbidden planet, but they knew where it was.
I stand corrected.


yes she could have been talking about a star system but that would not make very much sense. a star system is another name for a stellar system. it is a system in which two or more stars orbit each other, and it is rare for there to be planets in such a system because of the gravitational forces at work.
Your information is only partially correct. It depends on the distance of the stars that are orbiting each other wether or not they can support planets. For example, Alpha Centauri A and B can each support habitable planets, but nothing beyond about the orbit of Mars. Beyond that point,the gravity of the stars orbits will toss planets around.

The Lok'na Core could easily be a quadruple system all with stable habitable planets.


i dont know why you are knitpicking this terminology, it is pretty clear that they were saying the planets were all in the same solar system
It's clearly still disputed if myself and others aren't convinced :rolleyes:

Esquin
April 26th, 2005, 12:11 AM
The planets can't be in the same solar system because then there would be one address for all of them. Owen has made his point and to an extent hes right there is an area for which an address works the center of which is the intersecting 3 lines formed by the 6 points. That area is the only area that can exist from those 6 points to make an address for an area outside it, say for another planets orbit, it would need to also include the orbit of all planets within the orbit of the intended planet. Therefore you cannot have more then 1 gate operating in a solar system at one time it is immpossable to accuratly produce co-ordinates for such a solar system. I understand your argument about the Locknacor and I say that when they say system they infact mean sector, as in star cluster. There have been terminology errors in stargate before why not now.

The fact remains once you input an address for a world that address includes the planets orbit and must acomadate any area between the 2 widest points of its orbit. Hence creating a large sphere within which that address works. If you were to have a second working stargate in the same system it would need to be outside that planets area however this would result in the inner area becomming a part of the otter planets stargate address making the inner worlds address void.

I hope you can all understand now what I am saying and why it is immpossable to have multiple working stargate address in a single system.

Schrodinger's Cat
April 26th, 2005, 12:41 AM
I hope you can all understand now what I am saying and why it is immpossable to have multiple working stargate address in a single system.

I understand your point, but I will never agree with it. It doesn't make sense (to me) that the ancients would build the gate network in such a way that an address would only apply to an entire system.

Schrodinger's Cat
April 26th, 2005, 12:45 AM
Not really.....there are actually at least four points that could be generated with each permutation:


1,3,5
2,4,6
1,2,3
4,5,6


these could also combine in different ways: 1,2,3 = system; 4,5,6 = planet; 1,3,5 = 2 of system, one of planet; 2,4,6 = 1 of system, 2 of planet;......

4 points are needed to find any location in space.

The GPS system requires 4 sattelites in order to identify any location (with a three-meter range of error) on or in orbit of the planet Earth. Only 3 sattelites are required to identify a location on the surface, but only without accurate altitude measurement.

I'm not going to go into the geometry involved tonight....I'm too tired.


P.S. I'm good at math....but I won't be able to help you with your taxes...I'm too busy playing with my new Ancients Chair Room....

Repost

Read the above text.

Esquin
April 26th, 2005, 02:10 AM
It's not a matter of if the Ancients designed it that way its a matter of it can't work any other way. You can't encompass a planets entire orbit without including the area inside its orbit as well. The only way to do it would be to make addresses specific to the gates and not the areas that gates are it, and sinse we know gates are interchangable that can't be the case.

Schrodinger's Cat
April 26th, 2005, 09:03 AM
It's not a matter of if the Ancients designed it that way its a matter of it can't work any other way. You can't encompass a planets entire orbit without including the area inside its orbit as well. The only way to do it would be to make addresses specific to the gates and not the areas that gates are it, and sinse we know gates are interchangable that can't be the case.

With all due respect, Esquin, but is it at least possible that you're wrong?

The truth is, I'm fully aware that the guy that saw UFO's at Area 51 is probably still on Air Force/CIA payroll, if you know what I mean.....

I'm only trying to say that I think you should keep more of an open mind.

No offence was ever meant by this post...I also have strong opinions myself.

Schrodinger's Cat
April 26th, 2005, 09:17 AM
With all due respect, Esquin, but is it at least possible that you're wrong?

The truth is, I'm fully aware that the guy that saw UFO's at Area 51 is probably still on Air Force/CIA payroll, if you know what I mean.....

I'm only trying to say that I think you should keep more of an open mind.

No offence was ever meant by this post...I also have strong opinions myself.
I hope that no offence was, or will be, taken from the post quoted.

spg_1983
April 26th, 2005, 09:20 AM
It's not a matter of if the Ancients designed it that way its a matter of it can't work any other way. You can't encompass a planets entire orbit without including the area inside its orbit as well. The only way to do it would be to make addresses specific to the gates and not the areas that gates are it, and sinse we know gates are interchangable that can't be the case.
the ancients were way, way, WAY more advanced then us, dont you think its possible they found a way to do it that we cant even begin to understand? we already know that some if not all of our understandings of how things work are wrong, look at the tollan response when carter told them about the heisengerg uncertainty principle. and the ancients were way more advanced than them. the ancients invented the stargates themselves, coming up with a way for the system to work between planets in the same solar system would be childs play. it doesnt matter if we dont understand it, or cant explain it, it is still true.

Schrodinger's Cat
April 26th, 2005, 09:39 AM
the ancients were way, way, WAY more advanced then us, dont you think its possible they found a way to do it that we cant even begin to understand? we already know that some if not all of our understandings of how things work are wrong, look at the tollan response when carter told them about the heisengerg uncertainty principle. and the ancients were way more advanced than them. the ancients invented the stargates themselves, coming up with a way for the system to work between planets in the same solar system would be childs play. it doesnt matter if we dont understand it, or cant explain it, it is still true.

My point exaxctly......


Also, "Kulivrium physics" could be a failed attempt at a GUT. That doesn't mean that the Heisenberg Uncertanty principle is flawed, it just means that it's only a part of the flawed "Kulivrium physics".

spg_1983
April 26th, 2005, 09:43 AM
My point exaxctly......


Also, "Kulivrium physics" could be a failed attempt at a GUT. That doesn't mean that the Heisenberg Uncertanty principle is flawed, it just means that it's only a part of the flawed "Kulivrium physics".
well if HUP is part of kulivrium ohysics and kulivrium physics are flawed, wouldnt that mean HUP is flawed? if A=B and B=C then A=C

Schrodinger's Cat
April 26th, 2005, 10:07 AM
well if HUP is part of kulivrium ohysics and kulivrium physics are flawed, wouldnt that mean HUP is flawed? if A=B and B=C then A=C
No.

A+X+Y=B, B=C, A!=C, A+X=C, A+Y!=C, X+Y=C, A+X+Y=C, A!=C, X=C, and Y!=C...


A = HUP
X = Flawed Theories
Y = Correct Theories
B = Kulivrium Physics
C = A Group Containing Flawed Theories

Do you understand what I'm saying? One bad part can ruin the whole.

spg_1983
April 26th, 2005, 11:25 AM
No.

A+X+Y=B, B=C, A!=C, A+X=C, A+Y!=C, X+Y=C, A+X+Y=C, A!=C, X=C, and Y!=C...


A = HUP
X = Flawed Theories
Y = Correct Theories
B = Kulivrium Physics
C = A Group Containing Flawed Theories

Do you understand what I'm saying? One bad part can ruin the whole.
yeah i get what you are saying, but i still think the implication was that our understanding and concepts of physics are flawed. it was intended as a way they could do stuff without neccasarily having to explain it properly and when the fans say "well thats not possible because of blah blah blah, they can turn around and go "well we have established that in the SGverse our theories are wrong.

Schrodinger's Cat
April 26th, 2005, 12:16 PM
yeah i get what you are saying, but i still think the implication was that our understanding and concepts of physics are flawed. it was intended as a way they could do stuff without neccasarily having to explain it properly and when the fans say "well thats not possible because of blah blah blah, they can turn around and go "well we have established that in the SGverse our theories are wrong.

I think Narim was just letting Sam know that they were more advanced.....in a cryptic and annoying way.

_Owen_
April 26th, 2005, 12:22 PM
The planets can't be in the same solar system because then there would be one address for all of them. Owen has made his point and to an extent hes right there is an area for which an address works the center of which is the intersecting 3 lines formed by the 6 points. That area is the only area that can exist from those 6 points to make an address for an area outside it, say for another planets orbit, it would need to also include the orbit of all planets within the orbit of the intended planet. Therefore you cannot have more then 1 gate operating in a solar system at one time it is immpossable to accuratly produce co-ordinates for such a solar system. I understand your argument about the Locknacor and I say that when they say system they infact mean sector, as in star cluster. There have been terminology errors in stargate before why not now.

The fact remains once you input an address for a world that address includes the planets orbit and must acomadate any area between the 2 widest points of its orbit. Hence creating a large sphere within which that address works. If you were to have a second working stargate in the same system it would need to be outside that planets area however this would result in the inner area becomming a part of the otter planets stargate address making the inner worlds address void.

I hope you can all understand now what I am saying and why it is immpossable to have multiple working stargate address in a single system.


I understand your point completley however I believe that there are a few things that you are overlooking.

I believe you first point is that the coordinates would be the same because the are specified is basically the center of the planets orbit, and the center of another planets orbit in that system would be the same. You are correct, if the gate used the same symbols, than no you would not be able to have more than one gate in a system. However, we know that the symbols represent points in space, however the same points in space don't have to be used. There are an incredible number of points in space that could be used to identify a single area in space. So for example, you have your six points, you have the information saying that they expand out this far, also you have other information needed to specify the orbit of a planet. This planet is the closest of the two planets in the system to the sun. Then there is also a gate on the furthur out planet, for this planet the six points are shifted in a direction so that they still identify the same system however they are larger to encompas the furthur out planet. Because these points have been moved diffrent symbols would be used.

I believe your second point was that, the gate identifies the orbit of the planet and all area between the outer orbit and the sun, this is only partly correct.

The intersection of the six points, or three lines, whichever you prefer, does encompas the entire system from the planets' orbit and in, however the gate does not scan the inner worlds, because also included with the information about this planet is how far is inner most edge is from it's orbit (the outermost edge of the planets' travel around the star). This will mean that the gate can knows exactly where the planet will be, it will be within the determined sphere, except this sphere has a hole in the middle because the information of the planets' diameter, as I have previously stated in this post, alows for the inner area of the system to not be included in the preliminary scan that the gate does to make sure that the gate isn't already active. This allows for more than one gate in a system.

As for what happend in "Maternal Instinct" I don't know if these planets were in the same system, and there could be slip ups in the show, only the science and hard facts can prove it.

Owen Macri

Schrodinger's Cat
April 26th, 2005, 12:25 PM
I understand your point completley however I believe that there are a few things that you are overlooking.

I believe you first point is that the coordinates would be the same because the are specified is basically the center of the planets orbit, and the center of another planets orbit in that system would be the same. You are correct, if the gate used the same symbols, than no you would not be able to have more than one gate in a system. However, we know that the symbols represent points in space, however the same points in space don't have to be used. There are an incredible number of points in space that could be used to identify a single area in space. So for example, you have your six points, you have the information saying that they expand out this far, also you have other information needed to specify the orbit of a planet. This planet is the closest of the two planets in the system to the sun. Then there is also a gate on the furthur out planet, for this planet the six points are shifted in a direction so that they still identify the same system however they are larger to encompas the furthur out planet. Because these points have been moved diffrent symbols would be used.

I believe your second point was that, the gate identifies the orbit of the planet and all area between the outer orbit and the sun, this is only partly correct.

The intersection of the six points, or three lines, whichever you prefer, does encompas the entire system from the planets' orbit and in, however the gate does not scan the inner worlds, because also included with the information about this planet is how far is inner most edge is from it's orbit (the outermost edge of the planets' travel around the star). This will mean that the gate can knows exactly where the planet will be, it will be within the determined sphere, except this sphere has a hole in the middle because the information of the planets' diameter, as I have previously stated in this post, alows for the inner area of the system to not be included in the preliminary scan that the gate does to make sure that the gate isn't already active. This allows for more than one gate in a system.

Owen Macri

To whom are you responding to?

_Owen_
April 26th, 2005, 12:28 PM
I am sorry I was not specific, I have just previously added in a quote I was responiding to Esquin, I will repost to avoid confusion.

Owen Macri

_Owen_
April 26th, 2005, 12:29 PM
The planets can't be in the same solar system because then there would be one address for all of them. Owen has made his point and to an extent hes right there is an area for which an address works the center of which is the intersecting 3 lines formed by the 6 points. That area is the only area that can exist from those 6 points to make an address for an area outside it, say for another planets orbit, it would need to also include the orbit of all planets within the orbit of the intended planet. Therefore you cannot have more then 1 gate operating in a solar system at one time it is immpossable to accuratly produce co-ordinates for such a solar system. I understand your argument about the Locknacor and I say that when they say system they infact mean sector, as in star cluster. There have been terminology errors in stargate before why not now.

The fact remains once you input an address for a world that address includes the planets orbit and must acomadate any area between the 2 widest points of its orbit. Hence creating a large sphere within which that address works. If you were to have a second working stargate in the same system it would need to be outside that planets area however this would result in the inner area becomming a part of the otter planets stargate address making the inner worlds address void.

I hope you can all understand now what I am saying and why it is immpossable to have multiple working stargate address in a single system.




I understand your point completley however I believe that there are a few things that you are overlooking.

I believe you first point is that the coordinates would be the same because the are specified is basically the center of the planets orbit, and the center of another planets orbit in that system would be the same. You are correct, if the gate used the same symbols, than no you would not be able to have more than one gate in a system. However, we know that the symbols represent points in space, however the same points in space don't have to be used. There are an incredible number of points in space that could be used to identify a single area in space. So for example, you have your six points, you have the information saying that they expand out this far, also you have other information needed to specify the orbit of a planet. This planet is the closest of the two planets in the system to the sun. Then there is also a gate on the furthur out planet, for this planet the six points are shifted in a direction so that they still identify the same system however they are larger to encompas the furthur out planet. Because these points have been moved diffrent symbols would be used.

I believe your second point was that, the gate identifies the orbit of the planet and all area between the outer orbit and the sun, this is only partly correct.

The intersection of the six points, or three lines, whichever you prefer, does encompas the entire system from the planets' orbit and in, however the gate does not scan the inner worlds, because also included with the information about this planet is how far is inner most edge is from it's orbit (the outermost edge of the planets' travel around the star). This will mean that the gate can knows exactly where the planet will be, it will be within the determined sphere, except this sphere has a hole in the middle because the information of the planets' diameter, as I have previously stated in this post, alows for the inner area of the system to not be included in the preliminary scan that the gate does to make sure that the gate isn't already active. This allows for more than one gate in a system.

As for what happend in "Maternal Instinct" I don't know if these planets were in the same system, and there could be slip ups in the show, only the science and hard facts can prove it.

Owen Macri

Schrodinger's Cat
April 26th, 2005, 12:32 PM
I am sorry I was not specific, I have just previously added in a quote I was responiding to Esquin, I will repost to avoid confusion.

Owen Macri
I thought so...

_Owen_
April 26th, 2005, 12:48 PM
Am I that prdictable?

Schrodinger's Cat
April 26th, 2005, 01:15 PM
Am I that prdictable?
Only when you're responing to an overconfident poster like Esquin......I'm the same way with that type of thing.

_Owen_
April 26th, 2005, 01:28 PM
I would have to agree with that but I would also have to admit that I have been overconfident in some things as well. I think pretty much everyone has heard that you have to make mistakes to do something right, in this case you might have to be overconfident and fail in whatever battle you are fighting to learn a from your mistake and "play it" better next time.

(Just to be clear I am not saying that anyone failed, I don't want to offend anyone)

Owen Macri

Kayzersoze
April 26th, 2005, 02:59 PM
Schrodinger's Cat - sorry to pursue on this, it's only that I want to find out for myself exactly how they explain the addresses in the show (or at least, how physics junkies explain outside of the show).

When they dial the 6 first symbols, is it:
First 2 = line 1
Second 2 = line 2
Third 2 = line 3
Then the point of intersection of these three lines is the point of destination (roughly ... allowing for stellar drift)?

If not, can you explain how? (or point me to a thread that does)

Schrodinger's Cat
April 26th, 2005, 04:07 PM
I would have to agree with that but I would also have to admit that I have been overconfident in some things as well. I think pretty much everyone has heard that you have to make mistakes to do something right, in this case you might have to be overconfident and fail in whatever battle you are fighting to learn a from your mistake and "play it" better next time.

(Just to be clear I am not saying that anyone failed, I don't want to offend anyone)

Owen Macri

Yes, and if someone argues with me......I'm commonly overconfident in these type of threads. As long as nobody disagrees with me....... :D

Schrodinger's Cat
April 26th, 2005, 04:11 PM
Schrodinger's Cat - sorry to pursue on this, it's only that I want to find out for myself exactly how they explain the addresses in the show (or at least, how physics junkies explain outside of the show).

When they dial the 6 first symbols, is it:
First 2 = line 1
Second 2 = line 2
Third 2 = line 3
Then the point of intersection of these three lines is the point of destination (roughly ... allowing for stellar drift)?

If not, can you explain how? (or point me to a thread that does)

The PTB never explained it...We try to figure it out...but since we don't know where the points actually are, we have to make do with what we have.

NotAllowedToNameAnything.Ever.
April 26th, 2005, 04:30 PM
Time to throw a monkey wrench into the machine. Are the points of the stargate actually in or galaxy. In the movie the symbols seemed to chage but on the show there always the same from one star gate to another. (this would have to mean that the symbols repersent a large sphere surronding or galaxy. Just connect the dots to where you want to go.) If not the stars would change the father you get from earth. meaning the earth gate with only 32 symbols i belive could only dial so far. The symbols would be drastically deffrent on the other side of the galaxy if not using points outside or galaxy.

Basically I think trying to destingies a gate address in one solar system would be like trying to pick four cities each on a deffient continet to try and distingiush my house from my neghbors. with only 32 cities to pick from. (I am sure they had some way to use two gates in one system, heck the russians used one on earth for some time without problems for a short period. But I don't belive that gates in a system would have a deffrent adress. Still say you need an extension number. Maybe the one post earleir was right. The gate symbols might also be numbers. Might explain the distance callculation.

_Owen_
April 26th, 2005, 04:34 PM
That is true, it could be any of the symbols combined with any other symbols to form the lines. However it occurs to me.

symbol 1 and 4 =line 1
symbol 2 and 5 =line2
symbol 3 and 6=line 3

but that is just my oppinion, it is based on no evidence. The only thing I based it on is that they might make the start of all three lines first and then the end of all three lines, but it could also be the way you wrote it Kayzersoze, or it could be neither, and they are just in a random order.

Owen Macri

Esquin
April 26th, 2005, 08:30 PM
Hey im not trying to anger anyone but I still know that i'm right. I totally understand where you are comming from Owen but I maintain that you are wrong. If they gave a system 2 addresses there would then be no way to make the difference between them when dialing out.
I'm not trying to get anyone angry but to me it would seem that there is more then enough evidence to prove my theory. And yes maybe I am slightly over confident but we all are sometimes.

spg_1983
April 26th, 2005, 10:17 PM
Hey im not trying to anger anyone but I still know that i'm right. I totally understand where you are comming from Owen but I maintain that you are wrong. If they gave a system 2 addresses there would then be no way to make the difference between them when dialing out.
I'm not trying to get anyone angry but to me it would seem that there is more then enough evidence to prove my theory. And yes maybe I am slightly over confident but we all are sometimes.
no there is no evidence to support your idea. we come up with theories all the time for everything, but in the end the only true evidence is what is stated or shown in the show and it was stated that the planets were in the same solar system. so it doesnt matter what you, me or anyone deduces to try to figure out how the mapping system actually works insystem, it is still canon that it can happen and the easiest explanation is the simplest: its a show, it doesnt actually exist, and it was supposedly created by a race so far advanced than us we can barely comprehend it, if the ancients wanted to dial in system, then it was possible.

Esquin
April 26th, 2005, 11:01 PM
no there is no evidence to support your idea. we come up with theories all the time for everything, but in the end the only true evidence is what is stated or shown in the show and it was stated that the planets were in the same solar system. so it doesnt matter what you, me or anyone deduces to try to figure out how the mapping system actually works insystem, it is still canon that it can happen and the easiest explanation is the simplest: its a show, it doesnt actually exist, and it was supposedly created by a race so far advanced than us we can barely comprehend it, if the ancients wanted to dial in system, then it was possible.

Way to suck all the fun outta stargate. I detect a large amount of hostility towards us from you perhaps the Science and Tech board aint the place for you.

spg_1983
April 27th, 2005, 06:06 AM
Way to suck all the fun outta stargate. I detect a large amount of hostility towards us from you perhaps the Science and Tech board aint the place for you.
i suggested starting a science and tech board a year ago and started the Tech discussion thread before we had an official board. my hostility is towards the fact that you keep saying "it cant be done" when it is canon that it can be. so instead of keep saying the same thing, come up with a reason why it can be done. the science and tech board is the place for me, maybe its not for you?

_Owen_
April 27th, 2005, 12:43 PM
If they gave a system 2 addresses there would then be no way to make the difference between them when dialing out.



You are correct, if the gate used the same symbols, than no you would not be able to have more than one gate in a system. However, we know that the symbols represent points in space, however the same points in space don't have to be used. There are an incredible number of points in space that could be used to identify a single area in space. So for example, you have your six points, you have the information saying that they expand out this far, also you have other information needed to specify the orbit of a planet. This planet is the closest of the two planets in the system to the sun. Then there is also a gate on the furthur out planet, for this planet the six points are shifted in a direction so that they still identify the same system however they are larger to encompas the furthur out planet. Because these points have been moved diffrent symbols would be used.

Owen Macri
P.S. I sense that people are getting slightly angry with each other, no one wants this thread to be shut down so please don't say anything that might cause this. When something that someone says angers you, think of a happy place.

Schrodinger's Cat
April 27th, 2005, 08:58 PM
<!-- Edited -->

Maybe the Goa'uld had to gate to a different system in order to travel by stargate to another Loc'no planet.

Right now, I don't really care who's right. Maybe Esquin's right, maybe Owen Macri's right, maybe spg_1983's right, maybe NotAllowedToNameAnything.Ever.'s right, maybe I'm right.

Do you understand what I'm saying here?

Schrodinger's Cat

PS. I removed a lot of things from this post...It's much smaller now.

Jarnin
April 27th, 2005, 09:37 PM
<rant>
People, it's called peer review (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_review); we aren't attacking each other.

Peer review is an important part of the scientific method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method) , and if you can't deal with having your hypothesis attacked, then you need to grow a thicker hide.

If you know you've seen or heard something in the show regarding science or technology, you have to be able to reference it, that way people can check it out themselves. That saves us all alot of time being misinformed.
</rant>


Right now, I don't really care who's right. Maybe Esquin's right, maybe Owen Macri's right, maybe spg_1983's right, maybe NotAllowedToNameAnything.Ever.'s right, maybe I'm right.

Do you understand what I'm saying here?
Yes I do.

The fact is, most of the technology in both Stargate series simply cannot work. The writers have contradicted themselves over the years, and that is why we have so many people confused.
These kinds of debates have been happening since Star Trek was starting, and the only way it ended was for the producers to publish a book that would keep the viewers and the writers on the same page. We don't have a Stargate technical manual yet, but when they make one, I'll be first in line to buy it.

As for the coordinate system, I'm siding with Esquin's hypothesis, because I've done alot of SG watching, and he seems to be correct.

Schrodinger's Cat
April 27th, 2005, 10:06 PM
I completely agree with Jarnin's point.

Just so all of you know, I'll state my current hypothesis below.

It's been proven in the show that the Stargate Network allows for multiple gates in the same system, as long as the gates have different addresses assigned to them.
It hasn't been discussed in the show whether or not the gates in the same system can dial each other. I don't think it's possible, based on the current data about the range and shape of the POO. Since a POO must be defined in the gate network before it can be used, I can't be sure.

Schrodinger's Cat
PS. I'm going to edit my previous post...I think some stuff needs to be removed from it.

Esquin
April 27th, 2005, 11:36 PM
I know that 2 gates can be used in the same system my only argument is that I do believe both of them would have the same address and use the same point of origin. I may be wrong but I think i've seen enough in the show to prove my point. And as for it being cannon that gates can operate independently in the same system well I don't think that has never actually occured if it has please tell me when keeping in mind the Loc'nakor are a group of planets as said by T'ealc and not a system.

Jarnin
April 28th, 2005, 01:00 AM
I completely agree with Jarnin's point.

Just so all of you know, I'll state my current hypothesis below.

It's been proven in the show that the Stargate Network allows for multiple gates in the same system, as long as the gates have different addresses assigned to them.
Actually, that is what is being debated here. The only time we've seen two stargates in the same solar system would have been Solitudes and The Serpent's Lair. The Lok'na core wasn't defined as a solar system, so we'll leave it out of the discussion for now.

In Solitudes they were trying to dial Earth without realizing that they were on Earth, and they couldn't possibly dial the same planet using the same point of origin. They get a 'busy signal'.

In The Serpent's Lair Daniel used a Stargate on board a Ha'tak in Earth orbit to dial out, so he could escape the ships destruction. The reason was because he was too close to Earth to dial it in the ship.

We currently have no way of knowing how far away from another gate you have to be before your gate will get a distinct address, which is where the Lo'kna core comes in.

Some people believe the Lok'na Core is a solar system, meaning all the planets in the Lok'na Core orbit the same star, which would mean you could have more than one gate in a solar system, with each one having a distinct address.

Other's believe the Lok'na Core is a system of stars, and the planets have different addresses because they're actually in different (but neighboring) solar systems.


It hasn't been discussed in the show whether or not the gates in the same system can dial each other. I don't think it's possible, based on the current data about the range and shape of the POO. Since a POO must be defined in the gate network before it can be used, I can't be sure.
Well, we know that gates on the same planet cannot dial each other. It really comes down to how big of a volume the point of origin represents, which is currently unknown.

Skate Zilla
April 28th, 2005, 03:24 AM
Those screens from the show don't mean anything. Notice that the Abydos Point of Origin is used as the second symbol in one of those addresses? So how do you dial the Abydos point of origin in the first 6 symbols if you're not on Abydos? You can't.

I have about 15 screen caps of addresses just like that; they're just randomly generated eye candy for the viewers.
In some they used symbols twice, which we've never seen used in the show, and in others they use points of origin in the first 6 symbols which doesn't seem possible, since points of origin are supposed to be planet specific.

Personally, I don't think that there can be more than one gate in a star system. We've never seen it in either series, so any arguement to the contrary is speculation.

Point of Orignal Is Bassically a Planets Symbol,

The Six Points To determine the destination can be any constellation or planet... as long as its a point...

so any chevron can be used as a point to determine a destination...

Coorinates determining the Destination Point can Be Pretty CLose or Very Far away... .... as long as all six points create 3 planes (X,Y,Z) that intersect.

Better Yet:
http://members.cox.net/skatezila/WormHole.jpg

_Owen_
April 28th, 2005, 02:52 PM
I know that 2 gates can be used in the same system my only argument is that I do believe both of them would have the same address and use the same point of origin. I may be wrong but I think i've seen enough in the show to prove my point. And as for it being cannon that gates can operate independently in the same system well I don't think that has never actually occured if it has please tell me when keeping in mind the Loc'nakor are a group of planets as said by T'ealc and not a system.

It seems as though you have skipped my posts, and the reason for my point that the adresses, and therfore, the point of origin would be diffrent, I will quote my previous post below.



You are correct, if the gate used the same symbols, than no you would not be able to have more than one gate in a system. However, we know that the symbols represent points in space, however the same points in space don't have to be used. There are an incredible number of points in space that could be used to identify a single area in space. So for example, you have your six points, you have the information saying that they expand out this far, also you have other information needed to specify the orbit of a planet. This planet is the closest of the two planets in the system to the sun. Then there is also a gate on the furthur out planet, for this planet the six points are shifted in a direction so that they still identify the same system however they are larger to encompas the furthur out planet. Because these points have been moved diffrent symbols would be used.

Owen Macri