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    Wraith Economics

    The wraith are an advanced species there's no doubt. Their culture has evolved to levels our own will not see for some time. But I wonder sincerely about their economic system. My first question is how the wraith were able to attain their current number while thinning their food source to it's current state. How does it make sense for half of them to be asleep while the rest are awake (I'm not sure the actual percentage that exist in hybernation, I'm sure it's more than half). Thirty or forty years ago a man wrote a book about the problem of feeding people in our world in general. They used data about crop yields to prove mathmatically that India, even in a best case scenario, could never feed itself. Then a man came along with a strain of wheat that didn't grow quite as tall and was able to change all of that. It did wonders for third world countries everywhere, especially through some of the poorest nations in Africa, it won him a nobel peace prize. We're limited in our advancement, but we can innovate beyond our food problems. Why can't the wraith? Moreover, how do the wraith choose who feeds?

    Economics is the study of how a society with unlimited wants allocates scarce goods and services. In this case we'll look at food. The wraith need humans as a food resource. They need them so much to the extent that they keep extras wrapped up on ice on all their ships. We've seen from the captured Wraith "Steve" that if kept without food for too long their body begins to metabolize itself. This is expected because that's how metabolisms work. But the real question is, based on this need to feed frequently, if all the wraith are awake, how do they decide who gets to eat. I've not seen any currency exchange hands so they don't have a monetary economy. Is it a simple first come first served (pardon the pun). But in a first in first out sort of arrangement there would certainly be fighting over who got to be the first. Is it somehow need based? The wraith who gets to feed next is the one who's had to wait the longest? The question of allocation is an important one, because if there was no system of allocation then the wraith number should have dwindled long ago simply through natural competition.

    The wraith mental network is the only solution I can see to this problem of allocation. Since they are all connected it is natural to assume that the race functions as one entity rather than a group of many entities. Now rather than having many small consumers, there is one large consumer. It still does not seem to justify the lack of an economic system that the wraith maintain. The wraith have been portrayed in an enigmatic manner. In one episode they are shown as being very self centered in terms of their pursuit of survival. And in other episodes they are shown as an army of automatons pursuing the same goal. It leads me to believe that they are functioning in some form of Nash equilibrium, where they are making choices where the benefit of the group is put in context only when the group is present. Not exactly the prisoners dilema, but a game nonetheless.

    The next question is how long a generation is for the wraith. If they truly have no real age limitation, are they still affected by a Kondratieff wave or cycle? If Kondratieff's theories are correct (although this is debated) then somewhere every two or three generations a society goes through an economic cycle. That said, in explaination for you who are unfamiliar. The Kondratieff wave is a long term statistical representation of an economice sycle. Kondratieff was able to show using economice data that every 50 to 60 years every country in europe would go through an econimic long cycle. the cycle consisted of a rapid growth in the economy, followed by a recession of some kind, followed by a slight return in growth to a plateau, and ending with a depression in the economy. For any out there that think of Kondratieff as being wrong, the mayan civilization was able to note the same occurence in their society. The period for these waves, when put into generational terms, is 2 to 3 generations. Anycase, how old are the wraith? Certainly they're still effected by economic cycles. Where are they genrationally, and where, within that, are they on their Kondratieff wave?

    There are many other questions as to the wraith economy. Or the Ancients economy for that matter. I doubt anyone will want to post in this thread, but I'll wait and see. Perhaps there's some of you out there.
    ~Teddy


    (This was intended to give people an opportunity to go huh? and for me to throw around some jargon from class. For me the questions are legitimate, but it'd be nice to see someone in here to knock around the idea of the wraith or ancients as communists or socialists, or whatever the case may be)
    Last edited by teddybearnospaces; 30 March 2005, 10:21 AM.
    "When I started school it was considered a miracle for an ass to talk, now I'm not so sure." ~Anonymous

    "I do not agree with what you say, but I defend to my death your right to say it." ~Voltaire

    "Like Broadway, the novel, and God, feminism has been declared dead many times" ~Katha Pollit

    "I'm a feminist and I don't care who knows it." ~Me

    #2
    i think when your advanced as the wraith or even the ancients or asgard...economics dont really matter......monatary systmes like we know dont exist. people do it for the sake of doing it.
    come read my website!!!!!!!!!

    www.xanga.com/keppiezbt

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      #3
      That was a very interesting read but I'm not sure I can answer such a complex question but I'll try to put out some of my own ideas.

      I think the Wraith are flawed biologically. They seem to be have developed extremely fast, perhaps faster technologically than they did biologically if that's possible. They seem dependent on prey that can't replenish at the same rate of their own reproduction/mortality. If the doctor's right and they don't die of natural causes, then their consumption of resources exceeds their access to it. Which in some ways makes them not very different from our dependence on fossil fuels.
      They're also capable of doing without food for extremely long periods of time, so their driven more by immediate hunger than necessity.

      Our need for fuel is tempered by prices somewhat, and the realization of diminishing resources, and we could cut down on consumption to a point. The Wraith seem to manage something similar by going into hibernation. Perhaps this qualifies as a period of recession since they are not awake to make technological strides or consume resources? They're in a period of low supply and low demand? (I don't know too much about economics)

      Perhaps who gets to feed is determined according to which individuals are most needed to gain access to food. ie. foot soldiers, ship engineers etc. The fairness of this must be determined by the success of the culling. The more culled the more allowed to awaken.

      In the case of Atlantis, the knowledge of a richer feeding ground spurs more being awakened all at once since they're arrogant enough to be certain of their success.

      "You know what would make a good story? Something about a clown who makes people happy, but inside he's real sad. Also, he has severe diarrhea." - Jack Handy

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        #4
        Its always difficult to construct/imagine an economic system in an aline race that isnt obviously capitalist - at least in that some for of currency is used.

        They goul'd is explainable as they operated a fuedal-esque (ap) system, maybe this too is how he wraith operate, there is kinda of evidence for this in the the differnt types of wraith found soldiers > bob/steves > keepers and this may determin who gets to eat and who has to hibinate/go hungry and where the crop is channeled to

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          #5
          How advanced could one be if you eat by sucking the life out of people? They're like Trouble with Tribbles only ... less cute.
          TEAM SG1 LIVES

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by keppiezbt
            i think when your advanced as the wraith or even the ancients or asgard...economics dont really matter......monatary systmes like we know dont exist. people do it for the sake of doing it.
            I think you are correct, but my question is:

            When does that happen? What kind of event takes place to make everyone agree that a monetary system is obsolete? It seems that it would still take more than a 3rd world war as portrayed in the Star Trek timeline.

            Sorry if you are being ignored, Teddy. I've taken economics classes, but only because I had to. Heck, I even got A's, but I'm not up for this...today.

            "We'll keep the light on for you."

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              #7
              Originally posted by Ancient 1
              I think you are correct, but my question is:

              When does that happen? What kind of event takes place to make everyone agree that a monetary system is obsolete? It seems that it would still take more than a 3rd world war as portrayed in the Star Trek timeline.

              Sorry if you are being ignored, Teddy. I've taken economics classes, but only because I had to. Heck, I even got A's, but I'm not up for this...today.

              I've always wondered about that. I never could quite envision it but I think it would definitely require a massive world wide disaster, for us on Earth anyway. One in which the economies of every country falls apart completely. In addition to that, a whole new philosophy of life concerning what is truly necessary to be happy would have to be in place along with a single world government and a singular goal for the entire society, whether it be space exploration or something else.

              For the Wraith, I think because of their very different origins, it would be much easier for them to accomplish. They're already far more connected to each other than we are. They seem to have a caste system defined not by money but biology. For the most part it seems they know what they're born to do and no desire to deviate from it. They're not limited by a sense of definite mortality and they have a single consuming goal (to eat). As a result they don't have separate, contradicting needs so there's no need for trade and as a result, money.

              They don't live on a planet so they're not separated by geography, country or culture. They just don't seem to have any of the differences we humans create to separate ourselves from each other.


              As for the ancients, if their evolution differed from ours in that they established a strong civilization before they spread across a planet and separated themselves, that may have helped them reach a money-free society quickly. Or they screwed up badly enough and got past it. They were around for a long long time. Enough to make plenty of mistakes and figure out the solutions.

              "You know what would make a good story? Something about a clown who makes people happy, but inside he's real sad. Also, he has severe diarrhea." - Jack Handy

              Comment


                #8
                In star trek it was the realization on a mass level that we were no longer alone in the universe. I would guess that it would have to be something of significance otherwise people wouldn't buy it. <sorry for the pun>

                For the Wraith, it probably easier. Their society isn't about advancement because there seems to be hive mentality, so everyone is not out for themselves, just the advancement of their society.
                'Nou ani anquietus' - 'We are the Ancients:’ teachers of roads and builders of the 'gate.

                Comment


                  #9
                  I've always wondered about that. I never could quite envision it but I think it would definitely require a massive world wide disaster, for us on Earth anyway. One in which the economies of every country falls apart completely. In addition to that, a whole new philosophy of life concerning what is truly necessary to be happy would have to be in place along with a single world government and a singular goal for the entire society, whether it be space exploration or something else.
                  Something of signifigent proportions would be neccesary for this to happen probally on the lines of near destruction of our planet or contact with aliens. The only times in our histroy when people have banded together have been when they have faced a threat that posed a threat to all people. Its only then that differences dissapear and people start moving toward cooperation.

                  Alas, this never really happens for long before in our history. A worldwide government is also far far away from practical implication. People still feel cultural differences and have different ideas on how to run a country. Humans still look at each based on characteristics and not as members of the human species. Until those two issues get resolved we won't have worldwide unity.

                  Also the whole "grab as much stuff as you can" mentality about money probally has to go as well. We need to work together for the betterment of humanity.
                  Condemnant quod non intellegunt.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I suppose such a system could come about that doesnt require a huge destaster could be once some form of replication technology is invented. this could have happened with the ancients. Once there is no longer any means of production in any real sense, working to have money to buy things is not an issue, only then can pple work for their betterment intelectually and morally, as they're instrumental; needs are taken care of.

                    Like how primative farming lead to people having more time to invent and build socially, it could be moced even further, to a kinda arrogent "we don't need money we're all selfless' TNG philosophy

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Wandering Tamer
                      For the Wraith, it probably easier. Their society isn't about advancement because there seems to be hive mentality, so everyone is not out for themselves, just the advancement of their society.
                      Bingo \o/

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Let's face it, telepathy would make a communist or very socialist system a lot more feasible: your peers would KNOW whether you were really in need, or just a slacker deserving of your fate. With humans, the default mentality of Judeo-Islamist-Christians tending to be the latter due to their obsession with the importance of choice over circumstance... take away that plausible deniabilty and you would actually have to FEEL your neighbor's pain when they were on a run of bad luck.

                        At that point, socialized support would almost certainly supplant any capitalist or monetary system.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          maybe we should introduce them to capitalism and destroy their society

                          like that episode of ducktales

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Ancient 1
                            I think you are correct, but my question is:

                            When does that happen? What kind of event takes place to make everyone agree that a monetary system is obsolete? It seems that it would still take more than a 3rd world war as portrayed in the Star Trek timeline.

                            Sorry if you are being ignored, Teddy. I've taken economics classes, but only because I had to. Heck, I even got A's, but I'm not up for this...today.

                            It probably requires a major paradigm shift in the way a society behaves. What kind of event would trigger it...I don't know. Either a major global catacylsim that shapes our view and we "band together" or a resources.

                            I think resources. Think of it. All society and conflict arise through the need for resources. civilizations rise and fall over it. If all of a sudden we advanced our tech so that everyone had free energy and abundant food and water then what? u would have no need for thousands of industries.

                            more than that I think it is also a shift in how we view oursevles. The wraith act in a collective. like ants. ants arent telling the queeen hey pay me more food or i wont do this. when u have a hive/collective mentality, you do it because its for the good of the hive. the asgard do things for the gain of the asgard.

                            Until humans, view each other in a brotherhood of man we cant get there. Its always us vs. them, nation vs. naiton, me vs. you. We all want more more more and want to share les less less. I think we can get there but its going to take a few centuries, an environmental crisis and a huge war over energy.
                            come read my website!!!!!!!!!

                            www.xanga.com/keppiezbt

                            Comment


                              #15
                              The problem with viewing them as socialist or communist is that although they are hive minded they are also individual. They work together because it is in their best interest to do so. The problem is with their collective intelligence there is very little room for innovation. All of them think as individuals but are thinking as a collective at the same time. They are the quintessential homogeneous race. They may be different in appearance but are identical in thought. We've seen that any group that does not have conflict in thought does not regularly innovate. It is through conflict that invention progresses society. Look at world war two. At the beginning of world war two there were open cockpit air planes and at the end there were jet fighters. At the beginning Poland was using artillery shells dropped out of planes as bombs. And at the end was the beginning of the atomic age for weaponry. The wraith's problem is that they are constantly at war. Innovation does not seem to genuinely take place. And the one example of a free thinker/innovater we've seen from the show didn't have his experiment work the way it was intended and was destroyed for it. At least I assume the genetic engineer was destroyed, I'm not sure on that. I still want to know how they allocate food sources on the ships though. Unless there's some kind of queen or big brother type of entity. Which there may very well be, there was "something different" about the wraith Mckay and Sheppard encountered on that one planet. Wasn't specified as to what precisely was different, but it was stated. I'm going to assume that the writers have some plan for that wraith. There's got to be more than just Bob and Steve. In addition to that what role does gender play in there society. We haven't seen a femal wraith since that first ep.

                              Back to my point though. Okay, they're communist. Or socialist. Whatever. Basically they're pure communism. And arguements to or for communism aside (I don't agree with communism and I don't entirely agree with strong socialism because it hasn't worked, historically speaking, but then who knows what'll happen in ten years. Capitalism will die eventually, "but at the hands of it's friends and not it's enemies." Schumptr) allocation is still the question. I'm tempted to ask this in the ask Joe thread, but I don't want to bother them with a question they themselves probably haven't asked because economics is only important to people that know it. Everyone else doesn't care and economics works on in the smae natural order as physics, which is a bit frightening. I've wondered more than once if it would make a difference if everyone understood economics. Would anything legitamately change? Anyway, I digress again, communism makes sense as applied to the wraith, but there's got to be some kind of rank system or government. Doesn't there? I mean are there leaders telling all the other wraith what to think. Which then poses an interesting question. Are they instead of the perfect communism, in fact the perfect facism?
                              ~Teddy
                              "When I started school it was considered a miracle for an ass to talk, now I'm not so sure." ~Anonymous

                              "I do not agree with what you say, but I defend to my death your right to say it." ~Voltaire

                              "Like Broadway, the novel, and God, feminism has been declared dead many times" ~Katha Pollit

                              "I'm a feminist and I don't care who knows it." ~Me

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