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Macilnar
March 30th, 2005, 04:25 AM
I know there has been many ideas about whether or not ZPMs can be recharged or not and things seem to point to no but could the Stargate be used to "reset" a ZPM? The Stargates as we know the gate brakes things down to their basic elements and then reintegrate them when they reach the other side. So if the gate can be reprogrammed to "reset" a ZPM when it is sent through than the gates could be used as a "recharger" in that every time a ZPM goes through it comes out the other side "recharged". What does every one think of this? Could it be done? If not, than why?

Odens återkomst
March 30th, 2005, 04:53 AM
No. In simplest terms, you get back out what you put it. On the other side of the Wormhole you will get back the ZPM of the same molecular arrangement (one that's dead). A ZPM with power must have a distinct difference in it's makeup that makes it have power, and the dead one's not have power. If you put in a dead ZPM, you'll get back a dead ZPM.

Macilnar
March 30th, 2005, 05:08 AM
No. In simplest terms, you get back out what you put it. On the other side of the Wormhole you will get back the ZPM of the same molecular arrangement (one that's dead). A ZPM with power must have a distinct difference in it's makeup that makes it have power, and the dead one's not have power. If you put in a dead ZPM, you'll get back a dead ZPM.
Ah thats why I said "reprograme" the gate so it would change the dead ZPM into a working one.

alaskannut
April 2nd, 2005, 09:41 PM
Ah thats why I said "reprograme" the gate so it would change the dead ZPM into a working one.
Sorry man...I dont see how reprogramming the gate could help...you have physics working against you here.....although, granted that hasn't typically been a problem for SG-1 before;)

cobraR478
April 3rd, 2005, 12:13 AM
Ah thats why I said "reprograme" the gate so it would change the dead ZPM into a working one.
The gate is not magic.

TrustNo1
April 3rd, 2005, 04:17 AM
ZPMs use power from "vacuum energy derived from a self contained region of subspace time".

Or something like that :P

Macilnar
April 4th, 2005, 04:49 AM
ZPMs use power from "vacuum energy derived from a self contained region of subspace time".

Or something like that :P

That is right. Now then we know that the gate brakes us down to send us through. When Teal'c was stuck betwen gates that he has stored as data. Now what's to say we can't rewrite some of the data? If we can determin what the data for a full power ZPM is then maybe we can send a depleted ZPM through but change its data so it comes out a full ZPM. It is like scanning a pic into the computer, modafing it and then printing it.

cobraR478
April 4th, 2005, 12:46 PM
That is right. Now then we know that the gate brakes us down to send us through. When Teal'c was stuck betwen gates that he has stored as data. Now what's to say we can't rewrite some of the data? If we can determin what the data for a full power ZPM is then maybe we can send a depleted ZPM through but change its data so it comes out a full ZPM. It is like scanning a pic into the computer, modafing it and then printing it.
Except a billion times more difficult and nothing like printing a picture. If this was possible, we wouldn't have the ability to do it for thousands of years. And if they screwed up, who knows how much of the planet they could destroy when the messed up ZPM pops out of the gate.

Freyrs
April 4th, 2005, 01:05 PM
When the matter goes through the stargate it can only be arranged in the pattern it went in as. Even if we could somehow rearrange it enroute the ZPM derives its power from zero-point energy so its impossible to recharge the subspace field within it when it reaches maximum entropy.

./freelancer
April 4th, 2005, 01:37 PM
When the matter goes through the stargate it can only be arranged in the pattern it went in as. Even if we could somehow rearrange it enroute the ZPM derives its power from zero-point energy so its impossible to recharge the subspace field within it when it reaches maximum entropy.
Maybe if they find some way to convert entropy to usable energy... :)
But as stated before, the Stargate couldn't be used to power the zpm..

MadJaffa
April 4th, 2005, 01:58 PM
That is right. Now then we know that the gate brakes us down to send us through. When Teal'c was stuck betwen gates that he has stored as data. Now what's to say we can't rewrite some of the data? If we can determin what the data for a full power ZPM is then maybe we can send a depleted ZPM through but change its data so it comes out a full ZPM. It is like scanning a pic into the computer, modafing it and then printing it.

That's like saying we could sending all our casualties of various ailments, thn trying to reprogram the "heart" section of the data into a beating, functioning one.

ColonelWilliams
April 4th, 2005, 02:26 PM
well i thought that the power derived from the outgoing gate sent the stuff through and then the recieving gate put it back together with the exact same amount of energy, how could energy be gathered inside the wormhole other than the energy that goes through the wormhole from both ends?

chiefchucky
April 4th, 2005, 04:33 PM
In order to do what you say the stargate would have to pull energy from somewhere to powerer up the ZPM. In order to give the stargate the amount of power to recharge the zpm you would need a zpm which would be depleted after the tranzit. Its like charging a dead battery with a fully charged one which would just transfer most of the charge thus leaveing a dead battery of which you just charged from.

Giantevilhead
April 4th, 2005, 06:22 PM
If they could use the Stargate to reconfigure things, the Asgard would have been able to solve their cloning problem.

martyarizona
April 4th, 2005, 06:32 PM
The theory of conservation of energy is that energy (and also matter) cannot be created nor destroyed, it can only be transferred from one form to another. A naquada generator triggers a reaction in the naquada that releases the energy inherent in the naquada. You can't just create energy from something. It is like an equation. If you are using energy to power the wormhole and energy to split and recombine something. Where does the energy to recharge the zpm come from.

The Maneuver
April 4th, 2005, 08:46 PM
In order to do what you say the stargate would have to pull energy from somewhere to powerer up the ZPM. In order to give the stargate the amount of power to recharge the zpm you would need a zpm which would be depleted after the tranzit. Its like charging a dead battery with a fully charged one which would just transfer most of the charge thus leaveing a dead battery of which you just charged from.

The following is my understanding of how ZPMs work. I'm no physicist, so I may be completely wrong.

In "Rising", McKay said that ZPMs draw their power from subspace (not from themselves), which to me sounds like that a ZPM is like a "conduit" which channels the power into the "real world", so to speak. This in mind, I figured that a ZPM is depleted when it runs out of whatever "stuff" it uses to complete this task (Sort of like fuel, although I wouldn't use that word to describe it). If this were the case, it would be possible that the Ancients devised a way of charging ZPMs that hasn't been discovered by the Tauri yet.

As for the Stargate method, I suppose it might be possible, but the problem would be in reprograming the gate. I doubt it will ever be done.

thinknerd
April 5th, 2005, 01:34 PM
i dont really see how this could work. doesn't the whole "conservation of energy" law work where you start out with the same matter you had before?

Giantevilhead
April 5th, 2005, 04:48 PM
Zero point energy does not follow the normal laws of conservation of energy since it's based on the vibrational energy of particles at absolute zero due to uncertainty.

ColonelWilliams
April 5th, 2005, 05:07 PM
If it's at absolute zero (never been done before, theoretically impossible) wouldn't there be ABSOLUTELY NO ENERGY? maybe i'm misunderstanding you, sorry if i am. The Manuver, i can kinda see what you're sayin, is it something like this?; the ZPM uses vacuum energy/ something to do with subspace, and you're sayin that maybe they could find a way to use the subspace in which the wormhole travels and recharge it that way? that seems more plausible than reprograming the gate so that a charged ZPM pops out. was that total jibberish or did someone understand me?

Giantevilhead
April 5th, 2005, 05:28 PM
The lowest possible energy level of a particle is not zero even at absolute zero since particles will still oscillate due to the principles of quantum mechanics.

Im_just_guessing
April 5th, 2005, 06:24 PM
The following is my understanding of how ZPMs work. I'm no physicist, so I may be completely wrong.

In "Rising", McKay said that ZPMs draw their power from subspace (not from themselves), which to me sounds like that a ZPM is like a "conduit" which channels the power into the "real world", so to speak. This in mind, I figured that a ZPM is depleted when it runs out of whatever "stuff" it uses to complete this task (Sort of like fuel, although I wouldn't use that word to describe it). If this were the case, it would be possible that the Ancients devised a way of charging ZPMs that hasn't been discovered by the Tauri yet.


No, I dont know enough to explain it, but I do know enough to say you're wrong, as you predicted. Sorry. :S

ColonelWilliams
April 5th, 2005, 07:05 PM
The lowest possible energy level of a particle is not zero even at absolute zero since particles will still oscillate due to the principles of quantum mechanics.

Why do they oscillate? if it's too hard to answer that's ok. i was just wondering,(i'm a sophmore in highschool and haven't taken anything regarding quantum mechanics yet. But i would like to be enlightened :D ).

Macilnar
April 6th, 2005, 07:13 AM
If it's at absolute zero (never been done before, theoretically impossible) wouldn't there be ABSOLUTELY NO ENERGY? maybe i'm misunderstanding you, sorry if i am. The Manuver, i can kinda see what you're sayin, is it something like this?; the ZPM uses vacuum energy/ something to do with subspace, and you're sayin that maybe they could find a way to use the subspace in which the wormhole travels and recharge it that way? that seems more plausible than reprograming the gate so that a charged ZPM pops out. was that total jibberish or did someone understand me?
Thank you God some one gets what I was saying. Yes, that is what I mean.

Dragon Lord
April 6th, 2005, 08:17 AM
Actually, the question we should be asking is - what is the difference between a charged and an empty ZPM?
The point I'm trying to make is, that when you use vacuum energy, there are not many ways to deplete it, in fact, it is undepleteable. The only two reasonable explanations are that either it's broken, or it has caused something that could be translated like "cascade vacuum descent". That is, however not very probable - if that happened, we would notice. (Well, not really, we would just cease to exist, for this would destroy the universe as we know it). So, it may either be broken, which means that if somebody fixed it it would start working again, or, it could draw its energy from a different universe (much like in Asimov's novel The Gods Themselves). This way, it would probably draw power from an alternate reality, perhaps one where they don't yet have any matter, and through a CVD it would cause a Big Bang there. My personal theory is, that a ZPM is in fact two devices - one located in our universe, where it transmits its power, and one in the alternate universe, where it draws its power from. When we draw too much energy out of it, we cause a CVD, which destroys the generator itself (the link between the two has to be severed in the process, or else we might experience an unpleasant surprise). A way to recharge the transmitter would be to create a new generator and send it to an alternate universe (through a device the Ancients must have had created, if they were to make any ZPMs in the first place).

Dragon Lord
April 6th, 2005, 08:20 AM
Why do they oscillate? if it's too hard to answer that's ok. i was just wondering,(i'm a sophmore in highschool and haven't taken anything regarding quantum mechanics yet. But i would like to be enlightened :D ).
There is no known reason, not yet at least. That's just the way particles work :)

Ancient Centurion
April 8th, 2005, 06:54 AM
The lowest possible energy level of a particle is not zero even at absolute zero since particles will still oscillate due to the principles of quantum mechanics.

*looks at Giantevilhead's sig pic, then at the comment, then the sig pic, then the comment*
Nope, sorry, contrasting intellectualism with Ali G? The Juxtaposition just makes a completely reasonable scientific explanation impossible to focus on... the contrast makes the comment seem too smart to undertsand, but yeah... the comment sounds about right (now that I'm not looking at the pic).
I'd say there're easier ways of fixing a ZPM, remember the makeshift one Jack built? That could Dectuple our knowledge of ZPM's and lead to us building our own ones very soon. as for the stargate re-programming? Let's just leave it at this... not gonna happen

-Ancient Centurion

They call me Tim
April 8th, 2005, 08:27 AM
I think that the greatest likelyhood is that the ZPMs are broken...I noticed, I just because I have means nothing :D , that when Jack pulls the ZPM out of the Earth Base chair device that it looks burnt....the writers could just take the easy way out and say the ZPM's don't run out of juice but simply that the crystals that make up a ZPM degrade over time due to the high influx of energy that it has to deal with......Like the battery in your car....your car might not turn over even with a fully charged battery if your starter goes out and the ZPM is the starter...it could be that they just need to figure out how to repair the actually parts of the ZPM and it might light back up....maybe :S

6thMonolith
April 8th, 2005, 03:33 PM
*looks at Giantevilhead's sig pic, then at the comment, then the sig pic, then the comment*
Nope, sorry, contrasting intellectualism with Ali G? The Juxtaposition just makes a completely reasonable scientific explanation impossible to focus on... the contrast makes the comment seem too smart to undertsand, but yeah... the comment sounds about right (now that I'm not looking at the pic).
I'd say there're easier ways of fixing a ZPM, remember the makeshift one Jack built? That could Dectuple our knowledge of ZPM's and lead to us building our own ones very soon. as for the stargate re-programming? Let's just leave it at this... not gonna happen

-Ancient Centurion

Um, I dont think that that was a ZPM. It was a naquadah generator that used its energy practically all at once in short blasts. If Carter was able to understand it and make it work again, why not just build one? ahh,the unaswered questions of Stargate.


Actually, the question we should be asking is - what is the difference between a charged and an empty ZPM?
I think that the difference between a fully charged ZPM and a dead one is that the fully charged one works:D


My question is does a ZPM give a different energy output when the entropy increases? Does it slowly give out less and less power until it dies, or does it just suddently stop working?

Schrodinger's Cat
April 8th, 2005, 10:53 PM
40% Charged means that the ZPM has used up 60% of it's potential energy.

Jarnin
April 9th, 2005, 05:29 AM
A ZPM is not an energy storage device. It produces X amount of power until the subspace region it contains reaches entropy, which means it no longer produces anymore energy.

In QM, space is sometimes defined as a sea of virtual particles that have yet to be created. The idea is that if you could create a section of space and remove all matter and energy, you could never remove it all, because space actually creates particles. These particles are very short lived, and produced in pairs of particle and antiparticle, so when they come into contact with each other, they annihilate each other.
Steven Hawking states that sometimes, near black holes, the pairs are separated, with one falling into the black hole, and one moving away from it becoming a real particle, which is known as Hawking Radiation.
This is how a ZPM works. The 'self contained region of subspace' acts like a mini-black hole. When virtual particles are create near it's horizon, one falls in and one moves away, which is where the power comes from.

The problem is, Hawking proved that because of the radiation named after him, that black holes evaporate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation#Black_hole_evaporation) over time. This might explain why ZPMs stop producing energy when they reach 'maximum entropy'.

In a nutshell, if you wanted to 'recharge' a ZPM, you'd need to add a new 'self contained region of subspace' that is inside the ZPM. It's basically a mini black hole, so it shouldn't be too hard for McKay to figure out eventually.

teddybearnospaces
April 11th, 2005, 08:09 AM
It can't be done, because then atlantis would have a ZPM and that would require a huge amount of special effects to show all the cool stuff atlantis can do. it's easier for the budget if everythign stays off, then they don't have to come up with ancient stuff, or ancient effects.
~Teddy

Schrodinger's Cat
April 11th, 2005, 01:15 PM
A ZPM is not an energy storage device. It produces X amount of power until the subspace region it contains reaches entropy, which means it no longer produces anymore energy.

In QM, space is sometimes defined as a sea of virtual particles that have yet to be created. The idea is that if you could create a section of space and remove all matter and energy, you could never remove it all, because space actually creates particles. These particles are very short lived, and produced in pairs of particle and antiparticle, so when they come into contact with each other, they annihilate each other.
Steven Hawking states that sometimes, near black holes, the pairs are separated, with one falling into the black hole, and one moving away from it becoming a real particle, which is known as Hawking Radiation.
This is how a ZPM works. The 'self contained region of subspace' acts like a mini-black hole. When virtual particles are create near it's horizon, one falls in and one moves away, which is where the power comes from.

The problem is, Hawking proved that because of the radiation named after him, that black holes evaporate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation#Black_hole_evaporation) over time. This might explain why ZPMs stop producing energy when they reach 'maximum entropy'.

In a nutshell, if you wanted to 'recharge' a ZPM, you'd need to add a new 'self contained region of subspace' that is inside the ZPM. It's basically a mini black hole, so it shouldn't be too hard for McKay to figure out eventually.

How do you know that ZPE has anything to do with Black Holes?

Correct me I'm wrong, but I think you're unintentionally describing something completely different.

* Decides not to go into the details *

Dragon Lord
April 11th, 2005, 01:24 PM
How do you know that ZPE has anything to do with Black Holes?

Correct me I'm wrong, but I think you're unintentionally describing something completely different.

* Decides not to go into the details *

Correct, there is a difference between a ZPM and quantum vaporization. There's very little energy in the latter, and the principle is completely different.

ColonelWilliams
April 11th, 2005, 04:02 PM
Can anyone post any confirmed info on how the ZPM works? I think i have a basic understanding of it but would like to see if there is something i missed. It could just be something that human physics can't explain yet (tollans disregarded quantum physics) but i hope not, I wanna know how these dang things work and how you recharge em!

Schrodinger's Cat
April 11th, 2005, 05:10 PM
Can anyone post any confirmed info on how the ZPM works? I think i have a basic understanding of it but would like to see if there is something i missed. It could just be something that human physics can't explain yet (tollans disregarded quantum physics) but i hope not, I wanna know how these dang things work and how you recharge em!
Write a letter to the PTB.

I usually think that the ZPM controls the ZPE harnessing in the same way that the Naquadria Reactor Buffer controls the Naquadria Reaction.

When the ZPM reaches "Maximum Entropy", the "Restrictor Plate" breaks.

Anyone else think that they need to bring a Naquadria Reactor to Atlantis? They seem to work in the same way as a ZPM.

Jarnin
April 11th, 2005, 08:28 PM
How do you know that ZPE has anything to do with Black Holes?

Correct me I'm wrong, but I think you're unintentionally describing something completely different.

* Decides not to go into the details *
I wish you would have gone into details, since this is the science and technology section of the board afterall.

I wasn't saying that a ZPM gets it's energy from a black hole. I was saying they might get their energy in similar method.

The region of subspace within a ZPM supposedly creates "zero point energy", meaning it's producing vacuum fluctuations, also known as virtual particles and fields. The idea is that the subspace region acts like a black hole, in that the virtual particle pairs are divided at the horizon, with one remaining in the subspace region, and the other escaping to power the ZPM.
However, since there is a particle being freed, and one remaining behind, the subspace region would eventually evaporate, which means the ZPM wouldn't be able to be used for power anymore.

Remember, we're talking subspace here, which has never been defined in Stargate. They've never defined hyperspace either.


I usually think that the ZPM controls the ZPE harnessing in the same way that the Naquadria Reactor Buffer controls the Naquadria Reaction.

When the ZPM reaches "Maximum Entropy", the "Restrictor Plate" breaks.
If you define "Maximum Entropy" as "Meltdown", then you'd be right. Naquadria reactors are fission reactors. If the buffer were to malfunction, the Naquadria would continue outputing radiation and would eventually cause a meltdown.

When a ZPM reaches maximum entropy, it doesn't meltdown. It just stops working.

Dragon Lord
April 12th, 2005, 03:59 AM
The region of subspace within a ZPM supposedly creates "zero point energy", meaning it's producing vacuum fluctuations, also known as virtual particles and fields. The idea is that the subspace region acts like a black hole, in that the virtual particle pairs are divided at the horizon, with one remaining in the subspace region, and the other escaping to power the ZPM.
However, since there is a particle being freed, and one remaining behind, the subspace region would eventually evaporate, which means the ZPM wouldn't be able to be used for power anymore.

Nope, that's not the way it works. Yes, there is vacuum, but since there is no black hole, nothing can separate the pairs of particles. The ZPM is based purely on Zero-point energy, which has nothing to do with black holes. See also Kazimir's effect.

Schrodinger's Cat
April 12th, 2005, 01:50 PM
Absolute Zero can't possibly exist, and you don't need Heisinberg's Uncertainty Principle to show that.
<!--S.Cat refuses to go further into this topic-->

Make no mistake, I will defend that statement.

Schrodinger's Cat
April 12th, 2005, 02:10 PM
If you define "Maximum Entropy" as "Meltdown", then you'd be right. Naquadria reactors are fission reactors. If the buffer were to malfunction, the Naquadria would continue outputing radiation and would eventually cause a meltdown.

When a ZPM reaches maximum entropy, it doesn't meltdown. It just stops working.
Do you remember Camulus's ZPM in "Zero Hour"? It acted like an uncontrolled ZPE reaction.

I define "Maximum Entropy" as the point when the buffer-like part of the ZPM burns out.
Camulus removed the "Buffer" in his ZPM, causing it to uncontrollably draw power.

Dragon Lord
April 13th, 2005, 09:25 AM
Absolute Zero can't possibly exist, and you don't need Heisinberg's Uncertainty Principle to show that.
<!--S.Cat refuses to go further into this topic-->

Make no mistake, I will defend that statement.
I don't see what does absolute zero have to do with this. There is a great difference between "absolute zero" and "zero point" - although, the "zero" can be confusing.


Do you remember Camulus's ZPM in "Zero Hour"? It acted like an uncontrolled ZPE reaction.

I define "Maximum Entropy" as the point when the buffer-like part of the ZPM burns out.
Camulus removed the "Buffer" in his ZPM, causing it to uncontrollably draw power.
He did not. It was clearly stated that this was caused by the material. Do you truly believe that the outer shell would be a part of the generator itself?

Schrodinger's Cat
April 13th, 2005, 11:10 AM
He did not. It was clearly stated that this was caused by the material. Do you truly believe that the outer shell would be a part of the generator itself?
Why not?
Did I say Generator, or did I say Reactor?

What would happen if the outer shell of one of our reactors was removed?


I define a/an X Generator as something that uses Z as a reactant to generate X.
A Naquadah Generator is way beyond our level of technology.

I define a/an X Reactor as something that uses X as a reactant to generate Z.
A Naquadah Reactor is definitely within our level of technology.




Absolute Zero can't possibly exist, and you don't need Heisinberg's Uncertainty Principle to show that.
<!--S.Cat refuses to go further into this topic-->

Make no mistake, I will defend that statement.I don't see what does absolute zero have to do with this. There is a great difference between "absolute zero" and "zero point" - although, the "zero" can be confusing.

Zero Point Energy is based on the fact that there is Energy at the Zero Point.
Zero Point = 0k.

Zero Point doesn't = Zero Point Energy.

PS. I like challenges.

ColonelWilliams
April 13th, 2005, 12:41 PM
Why not?
Did I say Generator, or did I say Reactor?

What would happen if the outer shell of one of our reactors was removed?


I define a/an X Generator as something that uses Z as a reactant to generate X.
A Naquadah Generator is way beyond our level of technology.

I define a/an X Reactor as something that uses X as a reactant to generate Z.
A Naquadah Reactor is definitely within our level of technology.




Zero Point Energy is based on the fact that there is Energy at the Zero Point.
Zero Point = 0k.

Zero Point doesn't = Zero Point Energy.

PS. I like challenges.

I understand what you are sayin but why do you say a naquada generator is beyond our tech? isn't that what they use?

and sorry for my small understanding of physics (don't take physics till next year) but what does this mean;"Zero Point Energy is based on the fact that there is Energy at the Zero Point.
Zero Point = 0k.

Zero Point doesn't = Zero Point Energy."
?

Gregorius
April 13th, 2005, 12:44 PM
Zero Point Energy is based on the fact that there is Energy at the Zero Point.

A little more explaination for people that don't understand the difference ;):
It's based upon the fact that (sub)quantum movements that generate energy in vacuum, thus energy in what was once thought to be at absolute 0 and contained nothing hence the 0. The correct name for Zero Point Energy ought to be Vacuum energy iirc.


What would happen if the outer shell of one of our reactors was removed?

The reactor would leak radiation, the substance that slows down the neutrons would leak away thus causing an uncontrolable reaction which leads to a nuclear meltdown.


Zero Point = 0k.

Zero Point is in vacuum iirc and vacuum != 0K.

Absolute Zero = 0K

For the people without physics: 0K = 0 Kelvin = -273.16 degrees C.


Absolute Zero can't possibly exist, and you don't need Heisinberg's Uncertainty Principle to show that.

What does Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle have to do with this? It's about that you can't cannot know the momentem and the position of an object at the same time. You can only have one and then have to estimate the other. So Heisenberg doesn't have anything to do with it.

And absolute zero can't exist, at least that's what out current science states :P Since there are and always will be (sub)quantum movements that generate energy and generating energy = generating heat.

Gregorius
April 13th, 2005, 12:46 PM
I understand what you are sayin but why do you say a naquada generator is beyond our tech? isn't that what they use?

A naquada generator would generate naquada. A naquada reactor on the other hand uses naquada to generate energy.

ColonelWilliams
April 13th, 2005, 12:49 PM
Ohhh, i thought he said ok, now i get it he meant 0 Kelvin. what is iirc?

ColonelWilliams
April 13th, 2005, 12:50 PM
A naquada generator would generate naquada. A naquada reactor on the other hand uses naquada to generate energy.

ya i get that, i just thought they called them naquada generators on the show... or maybe i'm having a brain fart...

Gregorius
April 13th, 2005, 12:54 PM
Ohhh, i thought he said ok, now i get it he meant 0 Kelvin. what is iirc?

If I Recall Correctly.

As for the show, they seem to be using both generator and reactor (According to the Omnipedia.)

ColonelWilliams
April 13th, 2005, 12:59 PM
ok good, i haven't lost it. so ZPE is iirc (what is that?) in a vacuum?

Gregorius
April 13th, 2005, 01:03 PM
iirc = If I Recall Correctly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_Point_Energy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/vacuum_energy

Read it and you'll see what I mean ;)

ColonelWilliams
April 13th, 2005, 06:12 PM
thanks for that :) i see that sero point energy is potentially infinite, but wouldn't the power yield from a zero point power source be really low?

Schrodinger's Cat
April 13th, 2005, 07:03 PM
A little more explaination for people that don't understand the difference ;):
It's based upon the fact that (sub)quantum movements that generate energy in vacuum, thus energy in what was once thought to be at absolute 0 and contained nothing hence the 0. The correct name for Zero Point Energy ought to be Vacuum energy iirc.

I've called it that for five years!!!

Zero point is named after Absolute Zero. That doesn't mean that it is Absolute Zero.


The reactor would leak radiation, the substance that slows down the neutrons would leak away thus causing an uncontrolable reaction which leads to a nuclear meltdown.

My point exactly.


Zero Point is in vacuum iirc and vacuum != 0K.

Absolute Zero = 0K

For the people without physics: 0K = 0 Kelvin = -273.16 degrees C.

If a true vaccum could exist, the temperature would be 0k, but 0k can't possibly exist.


What does Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle have to do with this? It's about that you can't cannot know the momentem and the position of an object at the same time. You can only have one and then have to estimate the other. So Heisenberg doesn't have anything to do with it.

And absolute zero can't exist, at least that's what out current science states :P Since there are and always will be (sub)quantum movements that generate energy and generating energy = generating heat.

According to our current level of physics, Absolute Zero CAN exist.
For more information, read Cat's Cradle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%27s_Cradle)

"Ice 9" is to "Water" as "Movement of Anything at Absolute Zero" is to "Movement of Everything in an Entire Universe".

Jarnin
April 14th, 2005, 01:43 AM
According to our current level of physics, Absolute Zero CAN exist.
For more information, read Cat's Cradle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%27s_Cradle)

"Ice 9" is to "Water" as "Movement of Anything at Absolute Zero" is to "Movement of Everything in an Entire Universe".
Ok, hang on a second. You're saying that our current level of physics can be summed up by a science fiction novel by Kurt Vonnegut? If you were trying for an analogy, I think you missed.

Dragon Lord
April 14th, 2005, 04:52 AM
It's based upon the fact that (sub)quantum movements that generate energy in vacuum, thus energy in what was once thought to be at absolute 0 and contained nothing hence the 0. The correct name for Zero Point Energy ought to be Vacuum energy iirc.
Correct.


The reactor would leak radiation, the substance that slows down the neutrons would leak away thus causing an uncontrolable reaction which leads to a nuclear meltdown.
Incorrect. In a modern reactor, mediated by water, the water would leak, carrying with it little or no radiation. Then the failsafes would engage and in two seconds, cadmium rods would stop the reaction completely. Even if the failsafes failed, The reactor uses water to slow down neutrons, thus increasing probability that they will hit one of the 235U atoms and break it. Without water, there are only fast neutrons, and the probability that they will hit anything is decreased drastically. The reaction is not fully stopped, but it is very close to it.


Zero Point is in vacuum iirc and vacuum != 0K.
Again, correct. As I said, see also Kazimir's effect.


Why not?
Did I say Generator, or did I say Reactor?

What would happen if the outer shell of one of our reactors was removed?


I define a/an X Generator as something that uses Z as a reactant to generate X.
A Naquadah Generator is way beyond our level of technology.

I define a/an X Reactor as something that uses X as a reactant to generate Z.
A Naquadah Reactor is definitely within our level of technology.
What would happen? See above. My point is not semantics, I'm just saying, that Camulus had coated the ZPM with some kind of very violent HE with this special ability that its destructive power increases (I'd say exponentially) with energy invested. The proof would be that what they experimented with were only scraps of the outer shell, which, IMO, have nothing to do with the reactor part.


Zero Point Energy is based on the fact that there is Energy at the Zero Point.
Zero Point = 0k.

Zero Point doesn't = Zero Point Energy.

PS. I like challenges.
Precisely. The Zero Point Energy does not equal Zero Point, the point is that even at what is supposably nothing, there is energy that we may somehow draw. And since this state is called Zero Point, this energy is called Zero Point energy :)

Gregorius
April 14th, 2005, 05:01 AM
Zero point is named after Absolute Zero. That doesn't mean that it is Absolute Zero.

And Absolute Zero can only exist in a vacuum, thus Vacuum Energy would be a better term.




If a true vaccum could exist, the temperature would be 0k, but 0k can't possibly exist.

Look at the quote below.


According to our current level of physics, Absolute Zero CAN exist.
For more information, read

First of all, please use the correct symbol for Kelvin, which is K. k stands for Kilo. Second of all, you're now countering your own argument. First you can Absolute Zero (= 0K) can't exist and now you're saying it can exist.

And now it's necessary to use Quantum Physics and Thermodynamics. It states that the speed, thus the kinetic energy, of a particle/wave can never be zero, since that would cause a paradox. The most basic law of thermodynamics is: "Nothing has a 100% efficient use of energy, because movement causes heat. Combine both and you'll see that it's impossible to reach Absolute Zero/0K without violating those two laws.

Gregorius
April 14th, 2005, 05:07 AM
Incorrect. In a modern reactor, mediated by water, the water would leak, carrying with it little or no radiation. Then the failsafes would engage and in two seconds, cadmium rods would stop the reaction completely. Even if the failsafes failed, The reactor uses water to slow down neutrons, thus increasing probability that they will hit one of the 235U atoms and break it. Without water, there are only fast neutrons, and the probability that they will hit anything is decreased drastically. The reaction is not fully stopped, but it is very close to it.

Lets hope they use Heavywater (Deuterium) instead of normal water to slow down neutrons :P. It's the splitting of the 235U atoms that generate the energy ;) And the water wouldn't contain much radiation, but the Gamma rays would leave through the broken section. Other than that you're correct (Although Tjernobyl proved that even with failsaves things can go wrong).

Dragon Lord
April 14th, 2005, 05:12 AM
Lets hope they use Heavywater (Deuterium) instead of normal water to slow down neutrons :P. It's the splitting of the 235U atoms that generate the energy ;) And the water wouldn't contain much radiation, but the Gamma rays would leave through the broken section. Other than that you're correct (Although Tjernobyl proved that even with failsaves things can go wrong).
They use good old distilled water. Works fine.

Yes, tha gamma rays would leave, but only as long as there would be water in the reactor, because if there is no reaction, there are no gamma rays.

Chernobyl proved than when you disengage the failsafes AND make the reactor work on about 150% of its nominal capacity, things are likely to get pretty ****ed up. Murphy's law. Besides, Chernobyl used graphite as a mediator.

Gregorius
April 14th, 2005, 05:52 AM
Yes, tha gamma rays would leave, but only as long as there would be water in the reactor, because if there is no reaction, there are no gamma rays.

Depends, natural decay of an atom/isotope can create gamma rays as well.
If the water's gone and the reaction is gone you would still have some unstable isotopes that would decay and give of either alpha/beta particles or gamma rays.

Schrodinger's Cat
April 14th, 2005, 06:20 AM
Ok, hang on a second. You're saying that our current level of physics can be summed up by a science fiction novel by Kurt Vonnegut? If you were trying for an analogy, I think you missed.

I was only talking about my sense of humor.

Dragon Lord
April 14th, 2005, 09:27 AM
Depends, natural decay of an atom/isotope can create gamma rays as well.
If the water's gone and the reaction is gone you would still have some unstable isotopes that would decay and give of either alpha/beta particles or gamma rays.
Yes, it can, but that is inconsiderable.

Gregorius
April 14th, 2005, 10:27 AM
It isn't, because those "hidden" effects can cause much damage.

Dragon Lord
April 14th, 2005, 11:55 AM
It isn't, because those "hidden" effects can cause much damage.
Like what? They are hardly different from the natural background, plus, when a reactor breaks down, someone is bound to know about it, and thus necessary precautions may be taken.

Macilnar
April 14th, 2005, 12:17 PM
"To see how the ab initio estimate is made, start by considering the quantum simple harmonic oscillator. As every undergraduate knows, energy eigenvalues are

En=hw (n+1/2)

The relevant point to focus on is the zero point energy (ZPE)

E0=1/2 hw



It is to be emphasised that zero point energy is real and physical, and not just an artifact of the mathematics. For instance, allowing for zero point energy contributions is an essential part of molecular dynamics is also responsible for the Lamb shift. See, for example, [185, pp. 82-86]. (That book also discusses many other physical applications of harmonic oscillators one simply adds over all the oscillators:



EZPE=1/2 h Σj wj



In particular, consider a quantum field theory describing an elementary particle of mass m residing in flat Minkowski space. Put everything in a box of volume V with periodic boundary conditions. This quantum field theory is equivalent to a collection of harmonic oscillators. In terms of the three-dimensional wave vector k, the frequencies of these oscillators are given by



wj =√m2+k2j.



(Technical point: I have suppressed factors of c and the m appearing above actually denotes mc^2/h, but there is little point to keeping track of these quibbles.)

By going to the k-space continuum limit (this should be familiar from elementary solid state considerations) one has

____

EZPE=1/2 h ∫0∞ √m2+k2 d3k/(2pi)3 V.



So the energy density in zero point fluctuations is

____

PZPE=1/2 h ∫0∞ √m2+k2 d3k/(2pi)3



This formal result is perhaps a little abstract. (In fact, the integral diverges and the naïve zero point energy is infinite, more on this point latter.) While experimentalists have not been able to measure this zero point energy directly, differences in the zero point energy density underlie the Casimir effect, a topic we will have occasion to further pursue.”



This is from page(s) 82-83 of the book: “Lorentzian Wormholes: From Einstein to Hawking” by. Matt Visser



I couldn’t find the symbol for “pi” so I just typed it.



I hope this helps

The equations are not right because I don't how to type them on this site. If you need to see them you can find them here (just scroll down, you will know the post when you see it because it is the same as the one I just posted but the equations are shown correctly.): http://www.lotrplaza.com/forum/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=27&TopicID=169806&PagePosition=1

aAnubiSs
April 14th, 2005, 12:24 PM
And how many do you expect are going to understand that Macilnar?=) Especially without explaining every letter and symbol in EZPE=1/2 h ∫0∞ √m2+k2 d3k/(2pi)3 V.

Most people on the forum have problem with the facts, introducing calculations to them is suicide ;)

Macilnar
April 14th, 2005, 12:34 PM
And how many do you expect are going to understand that Macilnar?=) Especially without explaining every letter and symbol in EZPE=1/2 h ∫0∞ √m2+k2 d3k/(2pi)3 V.

Most people on the forum have problem with the facts, introducing calculations to them is suicide ;)

First I don't even know :D , second I only typed what was in the book, and last maybe some one here understands it and can translate into English for the rest of us. :D

Dragon Lord
April 14th, 2005, 01:02 PM
I can hardly tell the symbols from indexes, don't expect me to uderstand it:)

*EDIT <hint>if you have enough time, you might want to write these equations in MS Word and then screencap them for us, I recall there was a tool very useful for this</hint>*

Gregorius
April 14th, 2005, 01:11 PM
Maths....

"EZPE=1/2 h ∫0∞ √m2+k2 d3k/(2pi)3"

Let's see, what do we have here? Ahh..we need to calculate the integral from the formula √m2+k2 d3k/(2pi)3 where we have 0 as left bound and inf. as right bound. After creating the integral we seem to have to multiply it with 0.5 or divide by 2. But after this I have to guess because the formula is written unclear (Some more ^, ( and ) or a scan would help greatly).

Macilnar
April 14th, 2005, 01:11 PM
I can hardly tell the symbols from indexes, don't expect me to uderstand it:)

*EDIT <hint>if you have enough time, you might want to write these equations in MS Word and then screencap them for us, I recall there was a tool very useful for this</hint>*

Try the link I posted.

SG Zero
April 14th, 2005, 06:15 PM
PZPE=1/2 h ∫0∞ √m2+k2 d3k/(2pi)3..... That's what you have.... but you were solving for EZPE before hand... No offense... I'm assuming a typo and wondering how many more number misprinted or typos are there... Math is not fun to type, god knows I've messed up one time too many and had no idea. I know you aren't a moron well simply because you can type coherently unlike some posters, so I am assuming EZPE= h/2 ∫0->∞ ([√(m^2+k^2)]*(d^3*k)/(2*pi)^3) * V is the right eqn from the site you linked... Though even on that site they had no ideas what some of the things were.

Errr...... Let's say we really applied this.... I figured what some of the letters are assuming this relates back to some of the standard quantum stuff... Problem with this it evaluated from 0----> inifinity... which, well, on the real world basis, means nothing. We can't. More importantly, there's not variable to integrate over! To be they could all be constants and come out.

I have no idea how waves come into this, but everything moves to a certain frequency... That's how I figure this can be applied... I really have no idea, but here's a vague explanation in English.
h = plancks constant, it could be h-bar... which is divided by 2pi... i have no idea what it is here, assuming it is just h...
k = 3d spacial vector... which is awkward since it maybe a matrix? I'm not sure but this may explain how the wave moves in 3d. This is probably in vector form notation making the multiplications dot or cross products. I don't know what makes K so special since you can invert the space any way you like....
w = omega: speed of a wave... as in 2(pi)f=omega: unit example: rad/sec, could be considered something else like frequency itself... complicated issue...
n = integer
c = 3x10^8 m/s... speed of light, but they got rid of it assuming it was a quibble... I understand that part...
m = mass, but they reduced it to be mc^2/h being a constant in itself... so only mass is varying. Mass of what you ask?? I have no idea.. sub atmoic particles tend to have negligible mass....who knows?
V = Volume... of what? I have no idea, the space? How is it defined?? No idea? Ends of the vector?
k = this is the third dimension being z... like i = x, j = y.... k =z.... so you'll need vectors in space and then put them to a coordinate system... so you would need to put something there to move... so I'm assuming a particle?? I have no idea... I think I'm missing something here... Maybe the rest of the chapter of the book...?

Macilnar
April 14th, 2005, 06:29 PM
ok first "h" is h-bar

k = the direction the wave is traveling in three dimensions
h (really h-bar)=1.05457266(63) {times} 10^-34 J s
The w is the angular frequency of an oscillator. The regular frequency, nu, times 2pi is the angular frequency, w. j is just an index, like "for j = 1 to 20". wj is "w-sub-j", and you are summing over all of the oscillators. Each oscillator gets an index, j, and its frequency is wj. If we sum up all of those frequencies times 1/2h-bar, we get the total zero point energy of the system.

And that's all I can tell you. I will try to scan the pages. I might have them up tomorrow. :D

_Owen_
April 18th, 2005, 12:47 PM
Well your idea is good, but you are making it way more complicated than it needs to be. As far as we know the ZPM locks onto a point in subspace and then it draws it's energy from the vacum energy from there. When the ZPM becomes depleted it has simply used all of the vacum energy in the area of subspace that it has locked onto. All you need to do to recharge the ZPM is have it lock onto a seprate area in subspace, and boom it automatically is at full power again.

Owen Macri

AtlantisForever
April 22nd, 2005, 04:11 AM
I know there has been many ideas about whether or not ZPMs can be recharged or not and things seem to point to no but could the Stargate be used to "reset" a ZPM? The Stargates as we know the gate brakes things down to their basic elements and then reintegrate them when they reach the other side. So if the gate can be reprogrammed to "reset" a ZPM when it is sent through than the gates could be used as a "recharger" in that every time a ZPM goes through it comes out the other side "recharged". What does every one think of this? Could it be done? If not, than why?


That is a very good idea if u ask me u remember the epesode "HOME" and there was all that mist would that recharge the zpm just wondern :)

_Owen_
April 22nd, 2005, 12:36 PM
No the mist on the planet in home wouldn't recharge the ZPM, the ZPM dosen't work like that, The ZPM uses vacum energy derived from a self contained region of subspace, being engulfed in some sort of ellectrical energy wouldn't recharge it.

Owen Macri

lethalfang
April 23rd, 2005, 01:44 AM
Zero Point Energy is just an arbitary energy of a ground state system. The value of the so-called "zero point energy" is simply lowest possible energy level. The value is often set to zero for easy calculation purposes. Nothing otherwise special about it.

_Owen_
April 23rd, 2005, 08:26 AM
Well they use it to power Atlantis and tons of there other technology, there must be something special about it that they have discovered.

Like, the ancients use base eight math (The Fifth Race), however humans use base 10. humans use base 10 because we have 10 fingers, the ancients also had ten fingers, so there must have been something special that they discovered about base eight.

Owen Macri

Schrodinger's Cat
April 23rd, 2005, 10:40 AM
Well they use it to power Atlantis and tons of there other technology, there must be something special about it that they have discovered.

We use Naquadria Reactors to power our hyperdrives....does that mean that there's something special about it?
It only means that we don't have the nessasary tech to open a hyperspace window with a Naquadah Reactor.

I think that the reason they used ZPMs is because they probably didn't have Naquada on their homeworld.


Like, the ancients use base eight math (The Fifth Race), however humans use base 10. humans use base 10 because we have 10 fingers, the ancients also had ten fingers, so there must have been something special that they discovered about base eight.

Owen Macri

Are you sure that the Ancients used Base-8 math?

The math info could have just been stored that way. Base-8 is good for computers, and their writing system doesn't seem to allow for Base-16.

The data may have been meant for the SGC computers.

_Owen_
April 23rd, 2005, 10:49 AM
There is something special about Naquadria, it is more powerful than Naquadah, that is why we use it. And it is not that the Ancients didn't have naquah, they had more than enough, also ZPMs were found in the Milky way, there is plenty of Naquadah there. Also Naquadah alone could not power Atlantis' systems, so far the only power source we know of that can is the ZPMs.

As for the Base 8, yes I believe that the ancients did use base 8 math, otherwise why would they take the time to convert there equations in base ten into base 8, which according to your idea, they don't even use. What would be the significance of suddenly using another base of math in only one formula.

Owen Macri

Schrodinger's Cat
April 23rd, 2005, 11:40 AM
There is something special about Naquadria, it is more powerful than Naquadah, that is why we use it. And it is not that the Ancients didn't have naquah, they had more than enough, also ZPMs were found in the Milky way, there is plenty of Naquadah there. Also Naquadah alone could not power Atlantis' systems, so far the only power source we know of that can is the ZPMs.

I'm sure I said "on their homeworld". Why would they completely redesign their tech to accomodate a new, much more abundant, power source? By the time they developed a working hyperdrive, Naquadah probably wasn't compatible with their tech.


As for the Base 8, yes I believe that the ancients did use base 8 math, otherwise why would they take the time to convert there equations in base ten into base 8, which according to your idea, they don't even use. What would be the significance of suddenly using another base of math in only one formula.

Owen Macri

It makes no sense that our math could ever be base-8.

Our brains process information in groups of five. We use base-10, the Mayans used base-20, the sumerians used base-60...

If their math was base-8, then their brains would have to process information in groups of 2, 4, or 8.
Are you implying that their brains were THAT different from ours?

BTW, our use of base-10 has nothing to do with all the fingers on our hands. It has to do with the fact that our brains can see 5 different things without counting, but must count when there are six things.

lethalfang
April 23rd, 2005, 12:35 PM
"BTW, our use of base-10 has nothing to do with all the fingers on our hands. It has to do with the fact that our brains can see 5 different things without counting, but must count when there are six things."

I think it has much to do with our having 10 fingers. The primitives probably did not have much concept of "numbers," so they quantify things with their fingers. They show 3 fingers to indicate the 3 cows they just killed. As the numbers got larger, they start drawing bars, grouping 5 bars together to indicate the number of fingers they have. It's only natural, that the number system is based on 10-fingers.

_Owen_
April 23rd, 2005, 04:57 PM
Exactly because it is a much more abundant power source, for ancient weapons such as the ones with the drones, a ZPM, is required for operation, even a Mark two can't power the chair. The need for the new source of power was great because of the new techology they had built into atlantis.

As for the base 8, I don't know for sure that our brains process information in groups of five, but I do know that base 10 was started because we have ten fingers, lethalfang is correct, before complicated language one finger represented one thing, two fingers two things, etc., when knowledge moved on people realised that 10 was not really a number that you could show on your hands it was two digits, it was made of the numbers 1 and 0, so instead of one finger representing 1, it now represented zero and base ten was formed. If you can show me proof that you are correct than I will believe you, it is possible that you are right. however I don't think so, I can easily see six things and realise that there is six of them, and then on the other hand i could see four smaller things and have to count, so I don't believe that you are correct, however provide me with some concrete evdence and I will alter my course of thought on this subject matter. Although even if you are correct, having ten fingers still contributed to the way we count.

And yes, the ancients brain chemistry could be that diffrent from ours, after furthur evolution it is possible. Also answer me this, why would the Mayans use base twentym and the summerians base 60 unless they chose to, the mayans brain chemistry would have been almost exactly the same as ours. I believe that you just disproved yourself in your attempt to prove yourself.

Owen Macri

Dragon Lord
April 24th, 2005, 01:38 AM
I'm sure I said "on their homeworld". Why would they completely redesign their tech to accomodate a new, much more abundant, power source? By the time they developed a working hyperdrive, Naquadah probably wasn't compatible with their tech.
Why have we redesigned, for example, locomotives to use electricity for energy source, when they worked just fine with steam? Perhaps it had something to do with the plain fact that they worked better with electricity, just like ancient technology works better when powered by a ZPM then with a naquada generator. In other words, it's called progress ;)


As for the Base 8, yes I believe that the ancients did use base 8 math, otherwise why would they take the time to convert there equations in base ten into base 8, which according to your idea, they don't even use. What would be the significance of suddenly using another base of math in only one formula.
The significance would be that a computer could work easier with it... the same reason why we convert our decimal numbers into binary (or hexadecimal) numbers for our computers.
BTW, according to the de-encrypted ancient alphabet, they have ten digits, and I don't see what would the last two be good for if they used base-8 math ;)

P.S.: IMO, the system is only a matter of choice and habit... if we were taught to use the hexadecimal system all the way since we were born, we would now be arguing that our brain can actually realise eight things without counting them ;)

_Owen_
April 24th, 2005, 07:13 AM
Thank you I believed that that was the case with base 8. I have read the decrypted ancient alphabet, and I have seen that it has ten digits, but there must be something wrong with this, or something that will be changed in the show. This condradicts everything originaly said about the ancients math, in "The Fifth Race." I do not believe that tptb would do this on purpose.

Owen Macri

Macilnar
April 24th, 2005, 08:45 AM
"To see how the ab initio estimate is made, start by considering the quantum simple harmonic oscillator. As every undergraduate knows, energy eigenvalues are

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Macilnar/1.bmp

The relevant point to focus on is the zero point energy (ZPE)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Macilnar/2.bmp

It is to be emphasised that zero point energy is real and physical, and not just an artifact of the mathematics. For instance, allowing for zero point energy contributions is an essential part of molecular dynamics is also responsible for the Lamb shift. See, for example, [185, pp. 82-86]. (That book also discusses many other physical applications of harmonic oscillators one simply adds over all the oscillators:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Macilnar/3.bmp

In particular, consider a quantum field theory describing an elementary particle of mass m residing in flat Minkowski space. Put everything in a box of volume V with periodic boundary conditions. This quantum field theory is equivalent to a collection of harmonic oscillators. In terms of the three-dimensional wave vector k, the frequencies of these oscillators are given by

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Macilnar/4.bmp

(Technical point: I have suppressed factors of c and the m appearing above actually denotes mc^2/h, but there is little point to keeping track of these quibbles.)

By going to the k-space continuum limit (this should be familiar from elementary solid state considerations) one has

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Macilnar/5.bmp

So the energy density in zero point fluctuations is

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Macilnar/6.bmp

This formal result is perhaps a little abstract. (In fact, the integral diverges and the naïve zero point energy is infinite, more on this point latter.) While experimentalists have not been able to measure this zero point energy directly, differences in the zero point energy density underlie the Casimir effect, a topic we will have occasion to further pursue.”



This is from page(s) 82-83 of the book: “Lorentzian Wormholes: From Einstein to Hawking” by. Matt Visser



I hope this helps

ALL OF THE "h"s are really "h-bar" which=1.05457266(63)*10^-34 J s


So there you go, all the equations are fixed ;)

_Owen_
April 24th, 2005, 10:21 AM
NICE POST, I don't normaly reply like this but that was a very nice post, it was a good read as well. Except I think that there were words missing here and there, but I got what you were saying. Have some reputaiton, you deserve it.

Owen Macri

Dragon Lord
April 24th, 2005, 10:27 AM
Thank you I believed that that was the case with base 8. I have read the decrypted ancient alphabet, and I have seen that it has ten digits, but there must be something wrong with this, or something that will be changed in the show. This condradicts everything originaly said about the ancients math, in "The Fifth Race." I do not believe that tptb would do this on purpose.

Owen Macri

Well, IMO ten digits are proof enough. That O'Neill was writing figures in base-8 doesn't necessarily have to mean that they normally use it, example: you too have to transcribe your thoughts into hexadecimal if you want to feed them to Assembler.

Macilnar
April 24th, 2005, 10:38 AM
NICE POST, I don't normaly reply like this but that was a very nice post, it was a good read as well. Except I think that there were words missing here and there, but I got what you were saying. Have some reputaiton, you deserve it.

Owen Macri

Thanks and just so you know there isn't anything missing, after reading your post I went back and cheeked it's all there.

_Owen_
April 24th, 2005, 10:38 AM
That fact that that formula was in basee eight, is proof that the ancients used base eight. Every formula on Earth, that is commonly used is in base 10, there is no need to put one of them in base eight, unless you are using it to explain base eight. The Ancients would have had no need to put a single formula in base eight, when they normally used another base. Also it isn't that the formula was downloaded into O'Neill's brain, ancient knowledge was, and with the ancient knowledge in his brain he created a formula to calculate the updated positions of the planets, after hundreds if not thousands of years of stellar drift. O'Neill wrote this formula in Base eight which means that the ancients used base eight.

Owen Macri

_Owen_
April 24th, 2005, 10:39 AM
Oh, i'm sorry, it's my fault, I missed a couple words while I was reading.

Owen Macri

Macilnar
April 24th, 2005, 10:46 AM
That fact that that formula was in basee eight, is proof that the ancients used base eight. Every formula on Earth, that is commonly used is in base 10, there is no need to put one of them in base eight, unless you are using it to explain base eight. The Ancients would have had no need to put a single formula in base eight, when they normally used another base. Also it isn't that the formula was downloaded into O'Neill's brain, ancient knowledge was, and with the ancient knowledge in his brain he created a formula to calculate the updated positions of the planets, after hundreds if not thousands of years of stellar drift. O'Neill wrote this formula in Base eight which means that the ancients used base eight.

Owen Macri

Yes, base 8 is the formula was downloaded into O'Neill's brain.

Dragon Lord
April 24th, 2005, 10:54 AM
That fact that that formula was in basee eight, is proof that the ancients used base eight. Every formula on Earth, that is commonly used is in base 10, there is no need to put one of them in base eight, unless you are using it to explain base eight. The Ancients would have had no need to put a single formula in base eight, when they normally used another base. Also it isn't that the formula was downloaded into O'Neill's brain, ancient knowledge was, and with the ancient knowledge in his brain he created a formula to calculate the updated positions of the planets, after hundreds if not thousands of years of stellar drift. O'Neill wrote this formula in Base eight which means that the ancients used base eight.

Owen Macri

IIRC, O'Neill was feeding that formula to a computer, we only saw it in the format he was typing it, and thus we can't posibly know in what format was it downloaded into his brain.

Every formula is written down in decimal, and there is no need to convert it, unless you want to explain the base-8 or hexadecimal system on it, OR unless you want to feed it to a device that doesn't usually use decimal. And since computers commonly use hexadecimal in their most basic calculations, and base-8 is easily converted into hexadecimal, he used base-8. Or, he was writing it in an Ancient programming language which works in base-8 (which is a very logical way for a computer language to work).

_Owen_
April 24th, 2005, 10:54 AM
This pretty much proves that the ancients used base eight, there could be a problem with the translation of the ancient alphabet.

Owen Macri

Macilnar
April 24th, 2005, 10:56 AM
This pretty much proves that the ancients used base eight, there could be a problem with the translation of the ancient alphabet.

Owen Macri

For once I cannot say I agree about that, so far the translations have been (to my knowleg) flawless.

_Owen_
April 24th, 2005, 11:15 AM
That is true, I agree that the translation has been very good, other than some minor things that could just be a problem with the way they put the symbols on in the show. For example, the third line of the steps in atlantis appears to have the letters upside down. But I can not think of another explination for this, other than there is a problem with the translation. It's like the ancients dicvovered something about base eight that was very important, that made it "better" than the other types of math, they found this important enough to put the knowledge of base eight into thier repository, but then the ancients just decided for no reason to go back to base 10.

There might be one other possibility but it is highly unlikley, the ancient numbers look like they progressivly get "thicker," as they go up, you will notice this if youy look at the numbers. there could be the possibility that intead of the numbers going 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, that the last two symbols are acutally, 10, and 11. You would assume that 10 would be the symbol for one folowed by the symbol for zero, but this might not be the case in the ancient language, perhaps, the symbols are diffrent for each number and do not use the symbol for 1 and zero for ten, etc.

Owen Macri

Dragon Lord
April 24th, 2005, 11:16 AM
There might be one other possibility but it is highly unlikley, the ancient numbers look like they progressivly get "thicker," as they go up, you will notice this if youy look at the numbers. there could be the possibility that intead of the numbers going 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, that the last two symbols are acutally, 10, and 11. You would assume that 10 would be the symbol for one folowed by the symbol for zero, but this might not be the case in the ancient language, perhaps, the symbols are diffrent for each number and do not use the symbol for 1 and zero for ten, etc.

not probable... using a unique symbol for 10 would mean that it's an 11-base system.

_Owen_
April 24th, 2005, 11:25 AM
Oh yes, that's right, i'm sorry I wasn't thinking. I don't know what I was thinking, I should have remembered that. I don't know why I didn't, i'm sorry everone.

Owen Macri

_Owen_
April 24th, 2005, 11:28 AM
technically using a unique symbol for the digit after 9, not for ten, because the unique symbol that we are reffering to would go between nine and ten. So you would count, 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,A(unique symbol),B(unique symbol 2),10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,1A,1B,20.

Owen Macri

Dragon Lord
April 24th, 2005, 11:29 AM
technically using a unique symbol for the digit after 9, not for ten, because the unique symbol that we are reffering to would go between nine and ten. So you would count, 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,A(unique symbol),B(unique symbol 2),10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,1A,1B,20.

Which is a description of a base-12 system. Want to complicate it a little bit more? :D

_Owen_
April 24th, 2005, 11:35 AM
Sure, complicating things is what I do. lol. yes that would be a base twelve system, That is what I described in my idiotic post, 5 posts up.

Owen Macri

Orbital-Burn
April 29th, 2005, 08:28 PM
you always could do a google search on Zero Point Energy and find all about it. It's quite interesting, but it'll take you about a half hour to read the info on it.

_Owen_
April 30th, 2005, 08:48 AM
Lol, it would probably take you longer than an hour and a half.

Owen Macri

Macilnar
September 3rd, 2005, 11:06 PM
You got that Owen Macri, because if you are reading up on ZPE you also will be reading up on Harmonic oscillators along with Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle among other things. So unless you have taken Calculus it will just give you one big headache, and if it doesn't then you're lucky. But if you want to fully understand ZPE I reckomed reading the books: “Lorentzian Wormholes: From Einstein to Hawking” by. Matt Visser, and "Quantum Mechanics" by. Alber Messiah.

_Owen_
September 4th, 2005, 08:13 AM
Thank you I will check them out, I would like to learn more about Zero Point Energy.

Owen Macri

!Dorentus!
September 4th, 2005, 12:20 PM
A Dirt Devil or a Hoover should provide the vacuum power required to recharge the ZPM-(next quote by Jack, oh wait, he's gone, a guest appearence maybe?)

Macilnar
September 4th, 2005, 12:23 PM
A Dirt Devil or a Hoover should provide the vacuum power required to recharge the ZPM-(next quote by Jack, oh wait, he's gone, a guest appearence maybe?)
O’NEILL: No more beer for you.

nicedog
September 6th, 2005, 09:02 AM
For those who don’t know, don’t take this ZPM mumbo jump too seriously. It is I like to call it “bogus”. We will never be able to build something like this because well there is the plain old law of thermo dynamics , secondly SUBSPACE is something which movie makers thought of, it does not exist.

My advice feel free to say what you want since star gate is science fiction. The star gate itself can never be made a really, wormholes, you make me laugh , a star gate that works the way it does on the show will NEVER BE. We’d be lucky if the earth does not go into the dark ages when fossil fuels are depleted, other forms of energy like solar, wind, nuclear etc will not meet the demand, like, ever.

We’d be lucky if we ever build a spaceship that can fly trough our entire solar system alone. The promitius is simply out of humanity’s reach.

Look at us for Christ sake, it took us 8000 year(that number is debatable since I just made it up) to get where we are now chances are that this is as good as it gets.

That’s why we have science fiction, to portray and make us fantasize what we will never reach. A ZMP is one of those things, HELLO ,WE CAN’T EVEN BUILD A WORKING FUSION REACTOR.

This thread should be taken as something fun, don’t take it to serious

What is a definite possibility is that we meet aliens like the Asgard which will share their technology of theirs with us but I think they’d rather wipe out the competition, and yes you guessed right, the competition is us

Macilnar
September 6th, 2005, 10:57 AM
For those who don’t know, don’t take this ZPM mumbo jump too seriously. It is I like to call it “bogus”. We will never be able to build something like this because well there is the plain old law of thermo dynamics , secondly SUBSPACE is something which movie makers thought of, it does not exist.
True but Zero Point energy does, so while subspace is sci-fi ZPE is not, now even though a ZPM doesn’t use ZPE doesn’t mean we should not discus real ZPE.


My advice feel free to say what you want since star gate is science fiction. The star gate itself can never be made a really, wormholes, you make me laugh , a star gate that works the way it does on the show will NEVER BE. We’d be lucky if the earth does not go into the dark ages when fossil fuels are depleted, other forms of energy like solar, wind, nuclear etc will not meet the demand, like, ever.
Look at the next part.


We’d be lucky if we ever build a spaceship that can fly trough our entire solar system alone. The promitius is simply out of humanity’s reach.
Look at us for Christ sake, it took us 8000 year(that number is debatable since I just made it up) to get where we are now chances are that this is as good as it gets.
That’s why we have science fiction, to portray and make us fantasize what we will never reach. A ZMP is one of those things, HELLO ,WE CAN’T EVEN BUILD A WORKING FUSION REACTOR.
My God man, are you mad? First of in the last 300 years we have made vast jumps in are technology we went from the model T to the International Space Station in under 200 years, who knows in another 200 we may have colonies on the Moon and Mars. Secondly as for Fusion Reactors have you not heard about project ITER? Here is ITER’s website http://www.iter.org/ now then next time make sure you know for a fact that we don’t have something before you make statements like that


This thread should be taken as something fun, don’t take it to serious
This thread was made in all serious ness and while you are entitled to your point of view, I ask you to allow others to form their own onion on wither to take this seriously or not.


What is a definite possibility is that we meet aliens like the Asgard which will share their technology of theirs with us but I think they’d rather wipe out the competition, and yes you guessed right, the competition is us
Well yes that would likely be the case, but that is more unlikely then anything stated in this thread.

Three PhDs
September 6th, 2005, 11:46 AM
For those who don’t know, don’t take this ZPM mumbo jump too seriously. It is I like to call it “bogus”. We will never be able to build something like this because well there is the plain old law of thermo dynamics , secondly SUBSPACE is something which movie makers thought of, it does not exist.Zero point energy is very real and there are a lot of very intelligent and very real people working on potential applications of zero point energy even as I type this out. Oh, and in science I might point out, it's more often than not the people who say "never" that history regards as fools.


My advice feel free to say what you want since star gate is science fiction. The star gate itself can never be made a really, wormholes, you make me laugh, a star gate that works the way it does on the show will NEVER BE.Wormholes are a part of modern physics just as is gravity. Wormholes do exist, this is not in contention. Stable wormholes are a little more difficult, but given the fact that my phone has more processing power than my local university did when I was born, I think it's safe to say that what seems difficult if nigh on impossible today may not seem so hard tomorrow. Anyway, what makes you so steadfast and certain?


We’d be lucky if the earth does not go into the dark ages when fossil fuels are depleted, other forms of energy like solar, wind, nuclear etc will not meet the demand, like, ever.Energy is a commodity and there will always be people finding ways to sell it.


We’d be lucky if we ever build a spaceship that can fly trough our entire solar system alone. The promitius is simply out of humanity’s reach.We did... thirty years ago. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_2)


Look at us for Christ sake, it took us 8000 year(that number is debatable since I just made it up) to get where we are now chances are that this is as good as it gets.You clearly haven't understood the exponential nature of mans progression. Which is why that statement looks very very dim.


That’s why we have science fiction, to portray and make us fantasize what we will never reach. A ZMP is one of those things, HELLO ,WE CAN’T EVEN BUILD A WORKING FUSION REACTOR.As another member has pointed out, you're mistaken on that too.


What is a definite possibility is that we meet aliens like the Asgard which will share their technology of theirs with us but I think they’d rather wipe out the competition, and yes you guessed right, the competition is usAny race advanced enough to have developed technology capable of the energies required for interstellar travel that has not already used the power to wipe itself out is more than likely very benevolent in nature. Again, look at the development of mankind for evidence of how we have become more and more civilised over time.

Your post was very rude, and very wrong on nearly every one of your assumptions.

Macilnar
September 6th, 2005, 12:04 PM
Well put Three PhDs.

cobraR478
September 6th, 2005, 09:37 PM
This pretty much proves that the ancients used base eight, there could be a problem with the translation of the ancient alphabet.

Owen Macri
It just means that a)they probably use base-8 for computer programs, or b)he thought it would be easier to work in base 8 and convert it to base 16 than to do it from decimal.

vonbismarck
September 6th, 2005, 11:01 PM
Wormholes are a part of modern physics just as is gravity. Wormholes do exist, this is not in contention. Stable wormholes are a little more difficult, but given the fact that my phone has more processing power than my local university did when I was born, I think it's safe to say that what seems difficult if nigh on impossible today may not seem so hard tomorrow. Anyway, what makes you so steadfast and certain?


I hope this is not taken as rude but could you point me to a source(s) stating wormholes exist. I have already read of them existing as mathematical proofs.

JanusAncient
September 6th, 2005, 11:30 PM
It is strange, at least to me, that any person has the gall to say that something does not exist, this is in regards to the nonexistence of subspace. How many theories have evolved over time, how many have been proven incorrect, we know of the properties of our planet, and a tiny, infinitesimal portion of the universe, it is infinite, is it not?

We apply our laws of physics to everything, this is understandable, because it is all that we know, from what we have observed, this is what we have learned. In truth, our laws may not apply to some other region, of this very infinite, perpetual universe. People are trying to detail something, when even the most knowledgeable of us, in the grand scheme of things, has an extremely limited working knowledge of the universe.

The things we know may not apply everywhere, keep that in mind, I came to a realization a very long time ago, people assume that everything, and every being that we will find has to be either male of female, negative or positive, I began to understand something after thinking this. A being as infinite, and discerning as God, would have the ability to create something that is neither positive nor negative, male or female.

I came to this conclusion, while making observations of the world at large, what we see we believe to be the only way, that anything can exist, I then saw that if this planet was populated, from the beginning, only with male's, this means every species, we wouldn't know of the existence of women, we would assume that every other entity to be found in the vastness of the universe was male.

I donot say any of this to be rude, but no person, at the least not on this planet, can say that something like subspace does not exist, when in realism we have barely scratched the surface of the universe.

Let us all remember, that only a short while ago, the people of Earth believed that it was flat, that the planets of our solar system revolved not around the sun, but Earth, that most people didn't even live past their fifties, and that psychic phenomena, as well as science itself, was the work of the devil.

Lord §okar
September 6th, 2005, 11:44 PM
It is strange, at least to me, that any person has the gall to say that something does not exist, this is in regards to the nonexistence of subspace. How many theories have evolved over time, how many have been proven incorrect, we know of the properties of our planet, and a tiny, infinitesimal portion of the universe, it is infinite, is it not?

It is even stranger to me that one response you people have in the ol' repertoire is "you don't know it doesn't exist."

Technically you're right, of course the same is true of leprecauns. Actually, probably not, there was evidence that the leprecaun theory attempted to explain whereas subspace is a product of science fiction.

I'd like to declare this once and for all:
Subspace has no basis in reality.

It's not a theory created by physicists, it's a nonsense term created by Gene Roddenberry. It has not been suggested, theorized, or even considered as part of real science.

It's not a matter of humans not possessing enough understanding to determine the truth of subspace, it's a matter of "give me a reason to even consider that subspace isn't fiction."

A being as infinite, and discerning as God, would have the ability to create something that is neither positive nor negative, male or female.
We're in a science forum.

Let us all remember, that only a short while ago, the people of Earth believed that it was flat, that the planets of our solar system revolved not around the sun, but Earth, that most people didn't even live past their fifties, and that psychic phenomena, as well as science itself, was the work of the devil.
I don't see your point. You seem to only be saying that religion stifles science. Psychic phenomena?

infinitesimal portion of the universe, it is infinite, is it not?
That the universe is infinite is a matter of some contention, the place we inhabit is certainly not infinitesssimal.

In truth, our laws may not apply to some other region, of this very infinite, perpetual universe.
That is not truth.

Three PhDs
September 7th, 2005, 01:12 AM
I hope this is not taken as rude but could you point me to a source(s) stating wormholes exist. I have already read of them existing as mathematical proofs.As have I, however since they're a part of relativity and quantum mechanics which have thus far proven reliable (if at odds with each other) I have no reason to doubt them. I mean, I've never seen an atom, but I trust they exist.

JanusAncient
September 7th, 2005, 11:33 AM
Subspace has no basis in reality, this is true, but up until some minor years past, neither did quantum mechanics. Imagination, is much more important than intellect, someone said that, what was his name, that's right Albert Einstein.

JanusAncient
September 7th, 2005, 11:45 AM
[b] infinitesimal portion of the universe, it is infinite, is it not?
That the universe is infinite is a matter of some contention, the place we inhabit is certainly not infinitesssimal.

In truth, our laws may not apply to some other region, of this very infinite, perpetual universe.
That is not truth.

Yes, the infinite nature of the universe is in a questionable state, but if it is, I myself don't believe this to be the case, still that would mean that our area of it, is in fact very small, and not equal in any reasonable definition of the word, to every area of the universe. Actually it is truth, one you're just unwilling to accept, and if it is not the truth, it is at the least entirely within the realm of possibility. :) :D

What I was saying, is that people tend to stick to their own preconceived notions of the universe, without allowing something that has yet to be theorized, into the scope of possibility.

In other words, I listen to Plato, Copernicus, and Galileo, others wanted to burn them to crucify, imprison, or burn them at the stake, where's the pire. The science fiction writers, are the forward thinkers of our day, and just because we don't yet have theories, what comes from their imagination cannot, or should not easily be dismissed, because there is still a chance that they can be right about a lot, more than likely not all, but much.

Lord §okar
September 7th, 2005, 04:11 PM
Do you believe in leprecauns?

Subspace has no basis in reality, this is true, but up until some minor years past, neither did quantum mechanics.
Quantum mechanics was written a century ago. It came about as a very solid result of some very solid mathemematics.

Imagination, is much more important than intellect, someone said that, what was his name, that's right Albert Einstein.
Please, less glibness, more substance. I'm sure he'd make exceptions in some cases, anyway...

Outside from his empirical work Einsteins' word is meaningless. For one because it lacks rigorous proof, for two because he was a proponent of some thoroughtly ridiculous ideas.

Yes, the infinite nature of the universe is in a questionable state, but if it is, I myself don't believe this to be the case,
That's good, but we're in a science forum, again, where your opinion is immaterial.

Actually it is truth, one you're just unwilling to accept,
Excellent, a definitive statement. Please, show me your proof that the omnipresent laws of physics cease to function in remote areas of the universe.

JanusAncient
September 7th, 2005, 06:40 PM
Show me proof that they donot, when you are able to do this, I will gladly concede my argument. Something else, anything less than a thousand years, has the ability to still be disproven, and even then there is the possibility. :)

Oh, I almost forgot, stating that the laws of physics are omnipresent, is an opinion, and a grand one at that, they would have to be present in every reality, dimension, and plane of existence. ;) :) :D

cobraR478
September 7th, 2005, 07:22 PM
Show me proof that they donot
Tiny 6" tall South American people are the reason my socks disappear. Prove to me thats not correct. Oh wait, science goes the other way around.

There is no scientifical anything regarding suspace. It is fantasy. Much like unicorns, fairies, and gum drop rainbows.

Lord §okar
September 7th, 2005, 08:50 PM
Show me proof that they donot, when you are able to do this,
Leprecauns??? Damn, you've got me!

Something else, anything less than a thousand years, has the ability to still be disproven, and even then there is the possibility.
There's a statute of limitations now on how long fictional nonsense shouldn't be regarded as such?

Oh wait, science goes the other way around.
Bingo. Burden of proof, Janus, the onus is on you to deliver a reason to even consider subspace.

Oh, I almost forgot, stating that the laws of physics are omnipresent, is an opinion, and a grand one at that, they would have to be present in every reality, dimension, and plane of existence.
Our universe entails one reality and "plane of existence". Of course every dimension of space time functions the same. How is that an opinion? How else could it work and be congruous?

JanusAncient
September 7th, 2005, 09:12 PM
More opinions, sarcasm too, truth be told I like the back and forth with you, it's amusing, still I must be going, want be back here, it was fun though, in another chat, at another time, I'll like that, so ta ta for now.

JanusAncient

Lord §okar
September 7th, 2005, 09:15 PM
Cheerybye.

CueBa'al
September 7th, 2005, 09:57 PM
Am I mistaken in thinking that the ZPM is drawing energy from the vacuum of a tiny universe contained within the vessel? :confused:

Lord §okar
September 7th, 2005, 10:37 PM
Ever so slightly mistaken, it's a region of "subspace", not a universe.

A while ago I considered this as the ultimate irrefutable proof that subspace doesn't and won't ever exist: a definition consists of a label and a set of words in whose stead the label will stand. Even if a region of tangiability is theorized and ascribed the term "subspace" in homage to its copious references in Trekgate, it won't have the same internally inconsistent properties as either of the mutually contradictory subspaces from either series, let alone both of them. Ergo subspace, in this context, does, can not and will not ever be more than fiction.

CueBa'al
September 7th, 2005, 11:43 PM
Ever so slightly mistaken, it's a region of "subspace", not a universe.

A while ago I considered this as the ultimate irrefutable proof that subspace doesn't and won't ever exist: a definition consists of a label and a set of words in whose stead the label will stand. Even if a region of tangiability is theorized and ascribed the term "subspace" in homage to its copious references in Trekgate, it won't have the same internally inconsistent properties as either of the mutually contradictory subspaces from either series, let alone both of them. Ergo subspace, in this context, does, can not and will not ever be more than fiction.

What I take to be the closest thing to a viable definition of "subspace" is the place where virtual particles come from and go to. They seem to just phase into and out of existence, supposedly guided by the uncertainty principle. Perhaps a more appropriate definition would simply be that these particles exist in more than one universe. This throws a whole different monkey wrench into the thought process. The dynamics of some types of universes are so fluid that time really means nothing. A parent universe begotten by its child is one example.

In my opinion a ZPM would be a tiny self-contained group of universes; feeding each other with particles.

Of course, I'm just forming opinions based on material I've read, so take what I say with a sizable grain of salt. :D

Lord §okar
September 7th, 2005, 11:54 PM
You can shoose to define subspace anyway you like, the problem is that it won't be ratified by anyone else.

sparky
September 11th, 2005, 05:55 AM
I think I'm going to stick with biology this ZPE is really doing my head in.... :P

Just one thing, most of the ZPE stuff I've read up on discusses it in terms of 'normal space' not sub-space or whatever region of the universe zero point modules obtain energy from. If I'm right then aren't we going to have a little trouble discussing it in terms of quantum mechanics etc?

My two cents is that ZPM derive energy from oscillations of sub-space particles to get such a massive current. However, as energy is drawn from it the amplitude* of the oscillations gets smaller and smaller. Is that plausible?

*assuming sub-space particles have wave function.

Macilnar
September 11th, 2005, 07:22 AM
I think I'm going to stick with biology this ZPE is really doing my head in.... :P

Just one thing, most of the ZPE stuff I've read up on discusses it in terms of 'normal space' not sub-space or whatever region of the universe zero point modules obtain energy from. If I'm right then aren't we going to have a little trouble discussing it in terms of quantum mechanics etc?

My two cents is that ZPM derive energy from oscillations of sub-space particles to get such a massive current. However, as energy is drawn from it the amplitude* of the oscillations gets smaller and smaller. Is that plausible?

*assuming sub-space particles have wave function.
To put it simply, ZPMs DO NOT use ZPE...the writers really messed up on it. ZPE is the absolute lowest amount of energy there can be in a given space because the space cannot have 0 energy. So unless a ZPM is supposed to be drawing ZPE from "Sub-space" (ie. it draws energy from a point in space at an insane rate of speed and I mean it would have to draw energy faster than the speed of light, depending on the size of the section of "Sub-space" that is) but then that means ZPMs would never become depleted and that would make things rather dull for the viewers because there would be no need to go looking for ZPMs. I hope I didn't lose you.

Three PhDs
September 11th, 2005, 09:31 AM
To put it simply, ZPMs DO NOT use ZPE...the writers really messed up on it. ZPE is the absolute lowest amount of energy there can be in a given space because the space cannot have 0 energy. So unless a ZPM is supposed to be drawing ZPE from "Sub-space" (ie. it draws energy from a point in space at an insane rate of speed and I mean it would have to draw energy faster than the speed of light, depending on the size of the section of "Sub-space" that is) but then that means ZPMs would never become depleted and that would make things rather dull for the viewers because there would be no need to go looking for ZPMs. I hope I didn't lose you.I was with you right up to "simply"

Macilnar
September 11th, 2005, 09:39 AM
I was with you right up to "simply"
Ok for the really really simple version: Zero Point Modules don't really use Zero Point Energy.

Three PhDs
September 11th, 2005, 10:00 AM
Ok for the really really simple version: Zero Point Modules don't really use Zero Point Energy.It was a joke...

http://www.bbcprograms.com/pbs/catalog/reddwarf/images/0503redd.jpg

Macilnar
September 11th, 2005, 04:03 PM
It was a joke...
Pic...size...smaller...please!

Lord §okar
September 11th, 2005, 04:12 PM
ZPE is the absolute lowest amount of energy there can be in a given space
Yes....

So unless a ZPM is supposed to be drawing ZPE from "Sub-space"
...and it is...

(ie. it draws energy from a point in space at an insane rate of speed
It draws energy by capturing the products of the annihlations of quantum fluctuations in the zero point vacuum. "Speed" already is a rate but it is a scalar form of physical displacement per unit time. Power is the rate of energy change with time. Do tell me how energy can be drawn faster than the speed of light, or, indeed, at any speed, since energy draw per second is a term of power and the speed of light is a speed?

but then that means ZPMs would never become depleted
Entropy; the energy never runs out it just gets really hard to remove after a while.

I hope I didn't lose you.
Well I won't say I wasn't really confused with some of this data you're proposing...

Ollock
September 11th, 2005, 04:22 PM
but then that means ZPMs would never become depleted
Entropy; the energy never runs out it just gets really hard to remove after a while.

Wow, I THOUGHT McKay said something about 'maximum entropy' regarding ZPMs.

About the subspace thing, I always thought it was sort of a alternate spacetime. At one point I think I was thinking it was the space through which a wormhole or a Hyperdrive would travel.

Macilnar
September 11th, 2005, 04:28 PM
ZPE is the absolute lowest amount of energy there can be in a given space
Yes....

So unless a ZPM is supposed to be drawing ZPE from "Sub-space"
...and it is...
Ok so two for two.


(ie. it draws energy from a point in space at an insane rate of speed
It draws energy by capturing the products of the annihlations of quantum fluctuations in the zero point vacuum. "Speed" already is a rate but it is a scalar form of physical displacement per unit time. Power is the rate of energy change with time. Do tell me how energy can be drawn faster than the speed of light, or, indeed, at any speed, since energy draw per second is a term of power and the speed of light is a speed?
What I mean to say is: How is it able to remove energy fast enough, from such "small" amounts of energy, to be able to provide so much power? Or am I off on something?


but then that means ZPMs would never become depleted
Entropy; the energy never runs out it just gets really hard to remove after a while.
How so? If it is already drawing power from the lowest amount of energy possible in a given space, then how could it get any harder to remove? Or am I off yet again?


I hope I didn't lose you.
Well I won't say I wasn't really confused with some of this data you're proposing...
I wasn't worried about losing you, it is other people who might get lost.

nicedog
September 11th, 2005, 04:37 PM
people here believe so holy in zero poin energy, okay it excist, people want it excist, fine it does, there is a difference between a spaceship and voyager, that was simply a thing, a spaceship ,i mean like the one from stargate, and furtermore i really dont understand english well so if some of you'd be so kind to expalin things in symbols, equations or drawings, it would really help, thank you in advance for your coorperation

CueBa'al
September 11th, 2005, 04:41 PM
You can shoose to define subspace anyway you like, the problem is that it won't be ratified by anyone else.


shoose? Hehe

Ratification, or lack thereof, is not an issue. I fail to see why someone not accepting what I imagine to be the fictional science behind ZPM's has any problems or negative connotations associated with it. All in good fun.

;)

Macilnar
September 11th, 2005, 04:43 PM
people here believe so holy in zero poin energy, okay it excist, people want it excist, fine it does, there is a difference between a spaceship and voyager, that was simply a thing, a spaceship ,i mean like the one from stargate, and furtermore i really dont understand english well so if some of you'd be so kind to expalin things in symbols, equations or drawings, it would really help, thank you in advance for your coorperation
I will see what I can do.

Lord §okar
September 11th, 2005, 05:20 PM
What I mean to say is: How is it able to remove energy fast enough, from such "small" amounts of energy, to be able to provide so much power?
Well ZPMs don't really generate extraordinary amounts of power at all, then it's also never described exactly how much volume is within the "self-contained region of subspace", if you could somehow get all the virtual pairs brought into existence from a vast region of space that could have significant power, especially when that space is "subspace" where anything can happen and frequently does. The writers could simply will subspace to exude energy at a higher rate. :rolleyes: Also, I've read reports of calculations that indicate the immense potential contained within just a cubic inch of vacuum.

My theory as to how it works (completely unsubstantiated) is with something like the Asgards relativity machine the speed up time within the ZPM to make pairs come into existence more frequently.

Ratification, or lack thereof, is not an issue. I fail to see why someone not accepting what I imagine to be the fictional science behind ZPM's has any problems or negative connotations associated with it. All in good fun.
I would bring up the leprecaun example again, but you've probably already read it and disregarded it.

How so? If it is already drawing power from the lowest amount of energy possible in a given space, then how could it get any harder to remove? Or am I off yet again?
I'm not that clear on exactly how energy is derived from zero point vacuum and converted into useful potential. Whatever it is, as it works its entropy increases until it can work no more.

I wasn't worried about losing you, it is other people who might get lost.
Sorreh...

CueBa'al
September 11th, 2005, 06:33 PM
Ratification, or lack thereof, is not an issue. I fail to see why someone not accepting what I imagine to be the fictional science behind ZPM's has any problems or negative connotations associated with it. All in good fun.
I would bring up the leprecaun example again, but you've probably already read it and disregarded it.

I don't get it...

Is this an argument?

A confrontation?

A troll?

What was your point? That you don't like what I imagine to be part of the junk science surrounding ZPMs? *shrugs* Do you take issue with my imagination?

Honestly I don't see what difference it makes. It's all a load of bullpuckey meant to entertain us anyway. Your version of science fiction is just as valid as anyone elses. It's all fiction and meant for fun. That's all I'm getting out of it...fun. :cool:

Lord §okar
September 11th, 2005, 06:41 PM
Your version of science fiction is just as valid as anyone elses. It's all fiction and meant for fun.
My... version of... science fiction? What?

hat you don't like what I imagine to be part of the junk science surrounding ZPMs? *shrugs* Do you take issue with my imagination?
There's nothing wrong with imagination. There's something wrong with believing that subspace is real.

There's about as much truth in subspace as in leprecauns. Moreso for the latter, even, since they have alleged real world effects, subspace was invented by sci-fi and has no real world bearing.

I've got to save this to file so I can c+p for next time.

CueBa'al
September 11th, 2005, 06:55 PM
Your version of science fiction is just as valid as anyone elses. It's all fiction and meant for fun.
My... version of... science fiction? What?

hat you don't like what I imagine to be part of the junk science surrounding ZPMs? *shrugs* Do you take issue with my imagination?
There's nothing wrong with imagination. There's something wrong with believing that subspace is real.

There's about as much truth in subspace as in leprecauns. Moreso for the latter, even, since they have alleged real world effects, subspace was invented by sci-fi and has no real world bearing.

I've got to save this to file so I can c+p for next time.

Belief is too strong a word for something that is a bunch of speculation and creative storytelling. I have ideas, not beliefs. As far as your claim of truth goes..honestly who cares? Do you mean to say to me that my imagined version of a highly speculative science fiction theory (ZPM) is less valid than yours? I honestly must be mis-interpreting you, as that couldn't be the case.
Not everyone is capable of understanding quantum theory to the extent that they could carry an intellectual conversation about it. Imagination takes over where understanding ends. That's where fun begins. That's all I'm doing.
That being said, I've already wasted too many keystrokes debating this with you and find this train of thought at the end of the line.

Quinn Mallory
September 11th, 2005, 07:40 PM
Just want to point out that there is such a thing as "zero point energy" in physics and it is more or less an artifact of quantizing fields. Experimentally, it can not be measured as all the measurable energy are differences in energy (and every energy has the same zero point energy that cancels out). However, it is a quite usable concept in cosmology/astrophysics dealing with symmetry breaking, etc.

How would a ZPM possibly works? I think it might work the same way as Casimir effect which is an attractive force that form between two plates with nothing but vacuum between them. One can think off the vacuum region between the two plates as having less vibration mode and consequently lower "pressure" (it's not really pressure as we know it but a similar concept), an attraction happens due to the lower pressure. Of course, there is a HUGE difference between the Casimir effect and what one would need to have to make a ZPM. One might also borrow from the concept of "dark energy" that is >70% of the energy density of the universe and no one knows anything about except that it is accelerating the expansion of our universe.

Not sure that I clear anything up with this (actually, I sort of doubt it) but that's roughly my take on the possibility of ZPM in the real world. Bottomline is that "vacuum" is enough of a mystry in physics that it could be a future power source (just don't bet on it in our lifetime).

Shishcabob30
September 13th, 2005, 07:30 PM
maybe i should remind you guys that its just a tv show and that zpm's are totally science fiction, not science fact
so the normal rules that apply to universe don't have to apply to it, albeit it is an interesting idea

Lord §okar
September 13th, 2005, 07:54 PM
There's one of you in every crowd.