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    Has Ascension weakened the show? possible spoilers

    there was a story a while back on gateworld about reclaiming death and the effect ascension has had on the show. So what does everyone think? has ascension taken the drama away? when ascension was first introduce i thought it was awesome. when daniel ascended it was cool because we were losing a beloved character but we werent at the same time, it just fit that daniel would be someone that ascended. i think the first misuse of ascension was in "Abyss"
    Do i need spoiler space for season six? ill put it in to be safe
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    i think that abyss is when ascension first went to far, as soon as daniel suggested it as a way out for jack ascension lost all its "coolness" it was no longer a journey to another plane of existence and understand but now simply a way to cheat death. Ascension is only supposed to be for people who have reached a state of enlightenment to move beyond the physical plane.

    In "full circle" having the ancients turn out to be the ascended (something i suspected a while before) was an awesome plot twist but i wish they hadnt have had the reason behind their ascension be because of a plague wiping them out. it further trivialized ascension. it should have been that the ancients ascended because as a race the had started to reach the highest level of enlightenment possible on this plane of existence.

    Skaara's ascension was ok because i think that after everything he went through and with as good and caring a person he was, ascension was acceptable.

    the whole population of abydos ascending however tottaly destroyed all the menace and drama of anubis. it showed that while the ascended arnt going to directly interfere with stopping him (even though they created him basically) they are going to clean up after him if he is gonna use ancient technology. so what does everyone else think?

    #2
    Putting in Spoiler Space Just in Case Abyss, Full Circle
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    Originally posted by SPG
    i think that abyss is when ascension first went to far, as soon as daniel suggested it as a way out for jack ascension lost all its "coolness" it was no longer a journey to another plane of existence and understand but now simply a way to cheat death.
    I agree with you in this. I was VERY surprised to hear Daniel offering this as a way out for Jack. As much as I love Jack, he isn't really on the road to *enlightment* just yet and I felt Daniel would have known this was not something his friend Jack would do. It just really felt *out of character* for Daniel to offer it up as a choice. And yes it did take away from the *coolness* if you will of the whole idea of ascension.
    Originally posted by SPG
    In "full circle" having the ancients turn out to be the ascended (something i suspected a while before) was an awesome plot twist but i wish they hadnt have had the reason behind their ascension be because of a plague wiping them out. it further trivialized ascension. it should have been that the ancients ascended because as a race the had started to reach the highest level of enlightenment possible on this plane of existence.
    I totally agree here...took something away from the *higher* enlightment
    Originally posted by SPG
    Skaara's ascension was ok because i think that after everything he went through and with as good and caring a person he was, ascension was acceptable.
    the whole population of abydos ascending however tottaly destroyed all the menace and drama of anubis. it showed that while the ascended arnt going to directly interfere with stopping him (even though they created him basically) they are going to clean up after him if he is gonna use ancient technology. so what does everyone else think?
    I think that has troubled me the most about making the Ancients be possibly the Ascended. If they are then why have they allowed Anubis such free rein to hurt but not allowed other Ascended to help those very same people...AND not just by ascending them.....that is when the whole *coolness* glow wore off for me I think.....

    Thanks good question..has made me think about a few things..I may have to come back and post as I think about this more
    Life is short, Forgive quickly, Kiss slowly, Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably, And live out loud with no regrets..

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      #3
      Spoilers for season 7 Heroes 2
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      Plus if anyone deserved to ascend it was Janet. The fact that an entire planet ascended kind of takes the permanence out of any death on the show. You sit there thinking, well maybe he/she/it/they acscended and they'll come back later.

      It was, is, and always will be GREEN

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        #4
        Originally posted by Shipperahoy
        Spoilers for season 7 Heroes 2
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        [snip] You sit there thinking, well maybe he/she/it/they acscended and they'll come back later.
        Which is why it was almost necessary to kill off someone semi-important, like Janet. Ascension made death trival, and therefore trivialized any Jeopardy or dramatic tension, because if so-and-so dies they could just ascend.

        I still hear people say that Janet should come back, and while I would love to see Janet again it would remove *any* and *all* tension from the show, for me, if she did.
        ~BCM =)

        Open Source Initiative (OSI)
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          #5
          I don't think that Ascension started off badly. I think the idea was an interesting one. But TPTB have screwed it up royally. I know that Daniel's Ascension was a blatant cop-out, a way of getting rid of the character while still leaving the door open "just in case", but the storyline worked for me. It seemed, if not natural, then at least a logical possibility. Things went downhill fast after that, though, amd Ascension really DID become a cop-out for writers too lazy to do some real thinking or who'd written themselves into a corner and had no other way out.

          SPOILERS for Abyss and Full Circle
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          Daniel offering Jack Ascension in Abyss was incredibly unrealistic. It ruined my enjoyment of the ep and I will never be able to call the ep one of my favorites because that offer was so incredibly pathetic and unnecessary and out of character. I still liked Jack at that point, but his being a candidate for Ascension? No way. Not even CLOSE. Daniel must have been on some kind of glowy octopus crack to think that that was a valid choice.

          The Ascension of Abydos, as I've said elsewhere, was my shark-jump moment. Ascending the entire population?! There's no way ALL of them had done something to make them "worthy" of being an Ascended. Just being in the wrong place at the wrong time does not make you qualified.

          The writers have gotten lazy. They USED to write strong stories. They USED to be able to get around sticky problems. Now it's all, "Need to get rid of a character for a while? Just ascend him/her." "Not sure how to get a character out of a really impossible situation? Ascend him/her. You can always de-Ascend someone later, when it's more convenient."

          It's sad. And frustrating. And the saddest most frustrating thing of all is that it's exactly the sort of cop-out attitude I now expect from TPTB. Why take the hard road when you have an easy way out?

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            #6
            meridian, full circle, abyss spiolage.
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            i agree with shadow (gasp), daniel's ascension was cheap, especially in hindsight. It was ok, until he came back.
            Personally, i think a far more dramatic and less cheesy way to write out the actor while still allowing him to come back would a) just let him quit. something dramatic happens and he quits. b) daniel and sg-11 are off-world and vanish. no one knows where, there's no sigh, he's just gone.

            in both ways, he's not dead, he can come back, but his absence is also explained.

            In abyss, daniel offering jack ascension is one of my big issues with that eps. jack is a doer, he's a man that does things, takes action. putting him in a state where he's doomed to spend eternity keeping his hands off would be a worse torture than anything ba'al could have done.
            Gee, Jack, i know earth is getting attacked, but you can't do anything.
            I can't think of anything worse to happen to jack than that. For the short term, sure it was a great way out, but long term, no, it was horrible, IMHO

            then in full circle, they ascend all of abydos. gee, great drama. An error is made, nuby is given the death star, but it's ok, we're gonna save teh whole planet. bleh.....all of a sudden, the magic and wonderment of ascension is just a cheap plot device and a get out of death free card.

            it's as anti-climactic as having a sarcophagus in the infirmary
            Where in the World is George Hammond?


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              #7
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              I don't think Daniels ascension was a complete Deus-Ex-Machina thing, as he had allready started the journey in Maternal Instinct. It was pretty damned obvious that Oma had his eye on him for a long time after that (probably for Shifu), but as regards to Jack/Abydos??? Major cop out.... any why didn't the cute ancient chick from Frozen ascend?

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                #8
                (SPOILERS for Season Six's "Abyss" and "Full Circle" ...)
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                I thought it was good in Abyss, it was something Jack could never have done, the first thing he would have done would have been to kill Baal. It was never an option for him.

                But Full Circle was a bit of a cop-out, but I don't feel it damaged ascension itself, as long as they don't do it again I think it would have been better if it were just the kids guarding the pyramid who ascended, and then maybe Skaarra could have come to the SGC to tell them what happened.

                But what did the Abydonians do to be ascended? Well, they were the personification of innocence in the show, none of them deserved to die, especially because of Daniel's mistake.

                But there is one final use of ascension I want to see: Bra'tac. He should be badly injured in battle and decide to go off to Kheb to learn to ascend. Now that would mean it wasn't an on-the-spot cop-out and it has been something Bra'tac has wanted...
                Last edited by Darren; 03 May 2004, 09:42 AM.

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by Nurgle
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                  I don't think Daniels ascension was a complete Deus-Ex-Machina thing, as he had allready started the journey in Maternal Instinct. It was pretty damned obvious that Oma had his eye on him for a long time after that (probably for Shifu), but as regards to Jack/Abydos??? Major cop out.... any why didn't the cute ancient chick from Frozen ascend?
                  She didn't know how (She didn't remember anything, remember? ) and there was no one else to help her ascend.

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by Skydiver
                    meridian soilers
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                    i agree with shadow (gasp), daniel's ascension was cheap, especially in hindsight. It was ok, until he came back.
                    Personally, i think a far more dramatic and less cheesy way to write out the actor while still allowing him to come back would a) just let him quit. something dramatic happens and he quits. b) daniel and sg-11 are off-world and vanish. no one knows where, there's no sigh, he's just gone.
                    Exactly! If they'd left him ascended, that would have been fine, but bringing him back just made it all into a lame ploy and cheapened the sacrifice he made. Nothing anyone says will ever convince me that his return was in any way "good" or "right" for the character's arc.

                    I agree that having him leave might have been a better option, in hindsight. Having him "just disappear" would have been a little Spock-ish, but I could have lived with it and it could have been used in an intriguing way.

                    As for the Abyss thing... I'm sorry, but there's no way that was right. Not from MY outlook. It was ridiculous and unbelievable and for Daniel to even think that Jack might accept the offer says to me that Daniel knows absolutely nothing about Jack. Or maybe he just "forgot".

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                      #11
                      Daniel coming back was IMO a good thing. It solidified the whole 'ancients wont interfere' thing. Its not like it was 'ah well we'll just bring him back', it was already set up in the plots the he couldnt interfer .... OR ELSE~! then we found out what the or else really was.

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                        #12
                        Possible spoilers for Full Circle, Meridan, Frozen and Lost City . . .

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                        When Daniel was given courage to step up in Full Circle and rise against Anubis I think some points were made. However, as O'Neill stated in Full Circle 'Personally I think the whole Ascension is a bit overrated'

                        Ascension has changed the way Stargate shows espically since Daniel did back in season five's 'Meridan'. It was indeed clever to see his return in season seven. Daniel should have remainded ascended and it would have probably kept the show on its tracks espically in the ways of ascension

                        Season six's 'Frozen' was also quite interesting to meet an Ancient with the powers that also fits in with season seven's 'Lost City Pt. 2'. All in all, it has its ups and downs
                        Last edited by Anubis; 03 May 2004, 07:48 AM.
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                          #13
                          Yes it has

                          FULL CIRCLE
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                          Mass Ascension was a quick way to drop that storyline, never to be visited again it seems.

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by PeeJ
                            Daniel coming back was IMO a good thing. It solidified the whole 'ancients wont interfere' thing. Its not like it was 'ah well we'll just bring him back', it was already set up in the plots the he couldnt interfer .... OR ELSE~! then we found out what the or else really was.
                            I think it was all part of the loophole TPTB built for themselves precicely so they COULD say, "OK, now let's bring him back!" There was no deep thought involved, it was just the quickest, cheapest, dirtiest, stupidest way they could do it.

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                              #15
                              i kinda agree with ur 1st post.. ascension has been cheapened by the continuous use and reference to it.. it was supposed to be something special, that even the ancients didnt all manage, but now yeah, its just seen as a way for loved characters to die, but not be lost forever.

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