Free Jaffa

[jfarrell327]

I don't know about any of you but I was infuriated with the Free Jaffa especially later in the episodes where they take Dakara and use the super weapon to wipe out the Ori on that planet along with the people on it. The Free Jaffa leader had the nerve to say the Tau'ri weren't responsible for them being free they would've gotten there on their own (something along those lines, I forget the episode but know it is in Season 10, I believe...).

I think Bra'tac should've taken the leadership role since Teal'c remained with the Tau'ri which is the right thing, in my mind. The Free Jaffa don't know how to be free or to lead their people, I really would've liked to see Ba'al and the Free Jaffa work together, they really needed someone that knows how to lead, to lead.

Teal'c Bra'tac and obviously the Tau'ri are responsible for eliminating the Goa'uld system lords and they should've been treated with more respect than what they were given. I would've flipped if I was General Landry... Anyone else infuriated with the Free Jaffa?

[StargateMillennium]

The jaffa leader said the Tau'ri only freed the jaffa because it was in their best interests and if freeing the jaffa did nothing for the Tau'ri, the humans would not have bothered. It's a whole bunch of politics. Agitating? Perhaps. But, politics like this happen on Earth all the time.

[RunnerRonon]

Having Ba'al and the free Jaffa work together would break a lot of moral rules. He mistreated "his" jaffa just as much as the next Goa'uld, and therefore shouldn't ever have been put back into any kind of powerful position. Not only would he probably have betrayed the Jaffa at some point, I am pretty sure a lot of "his" former Jaffa wouldn't have agreed to him being in charge, which would probably result in more tension and/or fight among the Jaffa. I would've loved to see more of the developments the Jaffa nation experienced, seeing how their entire society and belief system had to change quite rapidly after gaining their freedom.

[jfarrell327]

I agree with Ba'al not being able to work with the Free Jaffa but he still did have enough Jaffa still with him, although he did admit he wasn't a God which was refreshing to hear him say. Ba'al however was my favorite Goa'uld, and he was the last one out of them all.

Millennium, I do remember that, however they should be more polite and cooperative after all the Tau'ri freed them when they had no obligation, they had enough symbiote poison to kill them all if they wanted too. The other Jaffa were also fighting against the Tau'ri and the Free Jaffa not wanting it and clearly thinking they're all shova's, (I think that is how you spell it).

It would've been nice to see someone we knew lead them, they needed someone confident, strong and well not like the leaders we saw lead the Free Jaffa.

[thekillman]

Teal'c Bra'tac and obviously the Tau'ri are responsible for eliminating the Goa'uld system lords and they should've been treated with more respect than what they were given. I would've flipped if I was General Landry... Anyone else infuriated with the Free Jaffa?

This is actually a common misconception. If it wasn't for the interference of the Replicators, the Goa'uld would not have been defeated, and if it wasn't through the Free Jaffa's own hard work, all would still have been lost.

How big exactly Earth's contribution was is debatable. Some say it was big, others not. I myself think it's commonly vastly overestimated. Remember that before Anubis swiftly put the Goa'uld under his control, the Goa'uld-Tau'ri was was going nowhere. Every System Lord they killed only made the remaining stronger. If it wasn't for the intervention of the Replicators, Apophis would have been strong enough to take full control over the Goa'uld and make the problem worse than it had ever been.

The Tok'ra were right in that regard. You may like them or not, but Earth was quickly changing the balance of Goa'uld power, and for the worse. The Tok'ra had a plan that might have taken centuries more to get into action, but they were actively preventing the very scenario Earth was quickly making real: A united goa'uld under a Supreme System Lord.

In the end, Earth provided little help. Well, the Jaffa clearly would've liked to see more. The guns the Tau'ri provided were powerful, but also made them dependent on Earth's whims and supply line. Warships were acquired by us and quickly lost. We killed Jaffa without scrutiny, perhaps many that were really underground Jaffa. If i recalled correctly, we also killed underground Tok'ra.

The jaffa leader said the Tau'ri only freed the jaffa because it was in their best interests and if freeing the jaffa did nothing for the Tau'ri, the humans would not have bothered. It's a whole bunch of politics. Agitating? Perhaps. But, politics like this happen on Earth all the time.

And yet it was also true. If it wasn't directly in Earth's interest (the protection of Earth), and provided perhaps the only way to truly end this war, we wouldn't have thought twice about using the Symbiont poison. Like, oh, we made the Goa'uld (near) extinct in "2010".

Still, yes it's politics too.

Having Ba'al and the free Jaffa work together would break a lot of moral rules.

Yep. I think the Jaffa felt they were strong enough to stand on their own two feet. Working with Ba'al would to them be admitting defeat.

I would've loved to see more of the developments the Jaffa nation experienced, seeing how their entire society and belief system had to change quite rapidly after gaining their freedom.

Yea, i think it would've been interesting to see how they actually coped with all this. So much changed, so much history a lie.

after all the Tau'ri freed them when they had no obligation,

Given that SG1 freed the Jaffa and the Jaffa freed SG1, i don't think the jaffa are actually in debt to anyone. If it wasn't for Teal'c, the whole Free Jaffa Nation would not have existed in this form. Also, Earth didn't do this out of the goodness of their heart. I think teal'c would've told them of earth morals.



Lastly, and i think this deserves more attention: SG1 did not travel across the entire galaxy, and considering that even when there were i think 25 or so Sg1 teams and almost a decade of exploration, we still hadn't visited every planet. Remember that to the vast, vast majority of the Jaffa, SG1 are a story. And considering many jaffa were at the Bad Guy side for some 8 seasons, do you really think they would've heard the Goa'uld sing praise of them? Furthermore, many jaffa would have seen only the effort of the resistance, their own jaffa. No SG1 or earth. They must've heard stories of humans bloody murdering swathes of jaffa, desecrating their lands, filling minds with poison, lands with poison.

As a small note: Earth's "our way or the highway" approach to Jaffa culture didn't exactly show Earth having any kind of respect towards it. I think many Jaffa would feel more like tools for Tau'ri dominance than the Tau'ri being true friends. Not to mention Teal'c's close friendship with the Tau'ri and continued service even when the FJN was crumbling must've stung hard, to see a hero of theirs not with their people.


EDIT: wow. a textwall. sorry. but there's much to say on the subject.

[NickEast]

This is actually a common misconception. If it wasn't for the interference of the Replicators, the Goa'uld would not have been defeated, and if it wasn't through the Free Jaffa's own hard work, all would still have been lost.

How big exactly Earth's contribution was is debatable. Some say it was big, others not. I myself think it's commonly vastly overestimated. Remember that before Anubis swiftly put the Goa'uld under his control, the Goa'uld-Tau'ri was was going nowhere. Every System Lord they killed only made the remaining stronger. If it wasn't for the intervention of the Replicators, Apophis would have been strong enough to take full control over the Goa'uld and make the problem worse than it had ever been.

The Tok'ra were right in that regard. You may like them or not, but Earth was quickly changing the balance of Goa'uld power, and for the worse. The Tok'ra had a plan that might have taken centuries more to get into action, but they were actively preventing the very scenario Earth was quickly making real: A united goa'uld under a Supreme System Lord.

In the end, Earth provided little help. Well, the Jaffa clearly would've liked to see more. The guns the Tau'ri provided were powerful, but also made them dependent on Earth's whims and supply line. Warships were acquired by us and quickly lost. We killed Jaffa without scrutiny, perhaps many that were really underground Jaffa. If i recalled correctly, we also killed underground Tok'ra.

I largely disagree. While I do agree with the fact that without the Replicators, the Goa'uld would never have weakened, but note that everything that led to the downfall of the Goa'uld, including the Jaffa rebellion, is all directly or indirectly caused by the Tau'ri.

If we never travelled to Chulak to rescue Sha're and Skaara, we would never have convinced Teal'c to join us. Both our efforts, but largely his and Bra'tac's, caused other Jaffa to rebel as well, especially after more Goa'uld died by our hands.

Yes, the Tok'ra were right about the power play between the Goa'uld and the fact that killing one Goa'uld would replace him with one far worse, but O'Neill was right in saying that it would take hundreds, if not thousands of years before the Tok'ra were able to defeat the Goa'uld, and even then it was sketchy considering their own statements that they weren't strong enough as they refused to use a sarcophagus.

And before we interfered, the Goa'uld were united under a Supreme System Lord: Ra. When we killed him, the Goa'uld started to fight amongst themselves about who should take his place. So the war was going in a direction, though it happened a bit too fast for some people.

The Replicators interfering with the Goa'uld was completely our own "fault". Our fight with the human-form Replicators had caused "Fifth" to hold a grudge against us, so he created Replicator Carter, who then invaded our galaxy and killed off most Goa'uld, which resulted in their defeat.

I do agree about the politics involved in this, but one of two primary mandates that created Stargate Command was to find allies to help in our war against the Goa'uld. While there were those that wanted to ensure Earth's safety at any cost (NID and the Trust), the SGC was entirely devoted to help our allies such as the Tok'ra and the Jaffa rebels. Many of the soldiers gave their lives to help others, even when it wasn't necessary. There were many examples where the well-being of our allies and other more primitive races had a higher priority than our own, such as with K'Tau and the Madronans (the weather device). We could have ignored them completely, but we didn't, which was largely due to Daniel Jackson.

There were also many examples where we wanted to help others, but they simply refused. In the end, in some cases, we were too stubborn to give in and helped them anyway, like with the Tollans. The problems within the Free Jaffa Nation was largely their own fault, due to cultural differences and friction between former enemies. I think this stubbornness, and ruthlessness when they used the superweapon, makes the Free Jaffa far worse than the Tau'ri. They don't think twice about an attack, even if it means getting other people unnecessarily killed. We do think twice, even if it ends up with the same results.

[thekillman]

I largely disagree. While I do agree with the fact that without the Replicators, the Goa'uld would never have weakened, but note that everything that led to the downfall of the Goa'uld, including the Jaffa rebellion, is all directly or indirectly caused by the Tau'ri.

While we set events in motion, does that credit us automatically for all that happened after? T

If we never travelled to Chulak to rescue Sha're and Skaara, we would never have convinced Teal'c to join us. Both our efforts, but largely his and Bra'tac's, caused other Jaffa to rebel as well, especially after more Goa'uld died by our hands.

According to the COTG final cut, Teal'c was already doubting. He just never found anyone he thought capable of opposing the Goa'uld.

Yes, the Tok'ra were right about the power play between the Goa'uld and the fact that killing one Goa'uld would replace him with one far worse, but O'Neill was right in saying that it would take hundreds, if not thousands of years before the Tok'ra were able to defeat the Goa'uld, and even then it was sketchy considering their own statements that they weren't strong enough as they refused to use a sarcophagus.

We know little of the Tok'ra's actual plan for the Goa'uld. It may have taken hundreds of years. So? By then the Goa'uld empire was 5000 years in the running. A couple of hundred more won't hurt. As to whether they could, i'm not sure. The Goa'uld were defeated with technology we didn't possess, but found. I'm certain one of the Tok'ra would be bothered by finding the right stuff to bring the Goa'uld down. (after all, that was what Upgrades was about).

And before we interfered, the Goa'uld were united under a Supreme System Lord: Ra. When we killed him, the Goa'uld started to fight amongst themselves about who should take his place. So the war was going in a direction, though it happened a bit too fast for some people.

Two or three years later Apophis was ready to take the crown of Supreme System Lord. Showing the futility of just plain murdering the Supreme System Lord. Also, if our plan failed we had ~7 billion in backup. If this little trick fails to the Tok'ra, well that's irrecoverable damage.

The Replicators interfering with the Goa'uld was completely our own "fault". Our fight with the human-form Replicators had caused "Fifth" to hold a grudge against us, so he created Replicator Carter, who then invaded our galaxy and killed off most Goa'uld, which resulted in their defeat.

This would have happened regardless. Thor made a point of how the replicators would come eventually to destroy our galaxy. They were just busy at the time killing the Asgard. We sped things up once more, yes. I don't deny we did something. I'm just trying to point out that we hardly can claim full credit. or even half. In that instant Replicarter murdered more System Lords than we had up till that point.

I do agree about the politics involved in this,[...]there were many examples where the well-being of our allies and other more primitive races had a higher priority than our own, such as with K'Tau and the Madronans (the weather device). We could have ignored them completely, but we didn't, which was largely due to Daniel Jackson.
.

Our own world and the safety of our own world was not at risk. The SGC was created to find any means necessary to protect our world. We caused the K'tai incident and the madronan incident. So i'm not sure if voluntarily helping people is such a good argument when it's really cleaning up our own mess. Event hose white tattoo aliens were dying by our cause.

There were also many examples where we wanted to help others, but they simply refused. In the end, in some cases, we were too stubborn to give in and helped them anyway, like with the Tollans.

When exactly? In Enigma we save the tollan who were sent to shut down that gate (to prevent people from getting through in the first place), but they expected to die anyway. The tollan cannon was one where the Tollan understimated the evil of the goa'uld, but the point kind of was that they didn't want our help -they didn't see the danger. You cant blame the tollans for not instantly sharing our hatred of the Goa'uld because -apparently- they never dealt with them before.

The problems within the Free Jaffa Nation was largely their own fault, due to cultural differences and friction between former enemies. I think this stubbornness, and ruthlessness when they used the superweapon, makes the Free Jaffa far worse than the Tau'ri. They don't think twice about an attack, even if it means getting other people unnecessarily killed. We do think twice, even if it ends up with the same results.

For a civilization used to war with pointless attacks and throwaway lives for 5000 years, the Jaffa were pretty reasonable. Also, they had a weapon that worked against the Ori, more than could be said of anything we possessed. We also got people unncecessarily killed when we killed Ra, instigating a galactic war putting millions of lives at risk. Or visited the planet with the ori sattelite (can't think of the name) and caused a cold war to become a very hot one. Or murdered people for space nazis. Or killed electromagnetic aliens in Entity. We didn't always know we were doing it, but travelling through the stargate is basically the constantly violation of the prime directive and we deemed the benefits greater than the risk.