Why No Pegasus Project Black Hole?

[Ripple in Space]

I've only watched SGU through once, so I don't know it as well as many of you do. Was it ever mentioned why they didn't attempt a Pegasus Project-style dialing to Destiny via a black hole?

Obviously during SGU S1 it wouldn't have been feasible since that would have been opening a black hole inside of the ship, but after Rush gained control of the ship, surely they could've found a black hole of their own and dragged a gate into it... Then it would be as simple as a shielded Puddle Jumper to create a supply line, and take home the people who didn't belong/want to be there.

[KEK]

I don't think it was ever explained, but presumably a black hole is just a weaker energy source than a planet with a naquadria core.

[tomaso88]

I always thought the same, why didn't they ever utilize a black hole to either get destiney's crew back to the milky way or to get people from the milky way to pegasus with help, in the end I think that would have just destroyed the whole plot though lol

[thekillman]

Because i do not believe for one second that the black hole is the power source.

The reason a black hole is useful is that the actual time the gate is open is much shorter. e.g. 1 hour for the gate is 1 day for the rest of us.

The supergate is pretty big and every segment can easily fit a reactor or ZPM to generate the necessary power.


(Before you talk AOT where they mention the ZPM: it would mean the supergate is slightly energy deprived as a safety measure).


Even if it is, i think you do not appreciate the amount of distance we're talking about and the amount of energy we're talking about. Even if the BH provided 99% power, we don't have the capacity to provide the other 1% and it would be useless.

[destiny khan]

well i know the answer... the answer is that the writers did not want it to. Otherwise the story would not have the BSG charm they thought it had and ultimately led to the cancellation. They want the 'against all odds' feeling going on and they defy common sense through out the 17 seasons. SO its should not be a surprise.

[Ripple in Space]

Because i do not believe for one second that the black hole is the power source.

The reason a black hole is useful is that the actual time the gate is open is much shorter. e.g. 1 hour for the gate is 1 day for the rest of us.

"Pegasus Project" contradicts everything you just said, as does much of Carter's dialog in S9 & 10. I'm not saying it makes real world sense that a black hole is somehow a plug-and-play power source, but in the Stargate franchise it certainly is.

The Pegasus Project gate had no power source outside of the black hole it was near.

(Before you talk AOT where they mention the ZPM: it would mean the supergate is slightly energy deprived as a safety measure).

Even if it is, i think you do not appreciate the amount of distance we're talking about and the amount of energy we're talking about. Even if the BH provided 99% power, we don't have the capacity to provide the other 1% and it would be useless.

Considering it was unanimous that an average star had more than enough power to dial the distance between Destiny & the Milky Way, I don't see why a black hole would only provide "99%."

[thekillman]

"Pegasus Project" contradicts everything you just said, as does much of Carter's dialog in S9 & 10. I'm not saying it makes real world sense that a black hole is somehow a plug-and-play power source, but in the Stargate franchise it certainly is.

Actually a black hole does give off energy. But since the black hole used by the supergate has no accretion disk, it only emitted hawking radiation. For a planet that size, the output is ~intuitively~ in the megawatt to gigawatt range. OR: if that black hole can power a supergate, so can a big power station.

EDIT:
http://xaonon.dyndns.org/hawking/

using that calculator i got 9.898449e-18 watt hawking radiation (that's 9*10^-18) for an Earth Mass


I would consider the time dialation effect a far more powerful aspect of a stargate than the hawking radiation. A Matter Of Time took place in 2 months IIRC despit the gate never surpassing the limit: you could literally open the gate for minutes in real time yet keep it open for months.

The Pegasus Project gate had no power source outside of the black hole it was near.

Can i just say that the distances we're talking about are slightly different and so the "supergate has own powersource" thing still applies?

Considering it was unanimous that an average star had more than enough power to dial the distance between Destiny & the Milky Way, I don't see why a black hole would only provide "99%."

Because a black hole fundamentally works in different ways than a star. for one, a naked black hole sucks.


3.8×10^26 J : total output of the sun per second.

~10 kt per kg (naquahdah fissile energy, varying numbers and sources).
(=4.184*10^13 J)

Resulting naquahdah-equivalent:

9.08*10^12 kg of naquahdah.

To figure out how much this is for the Icarus Plan to work, im gonna find the mass of the core and compare it to the amount of naquahdah
Source for below

The Core is the center part of the earth and is actually divided into an outer core and inner core. Seismological research has shown that the core has an outer shell about 2225 km (1380 mi) thick with an average density of 10 g/cm3. This shell is probably rigid, and studies show that its outer surface has depressions and peaks, the latter forming where warm material rises. From this we can calculate :

volume = 1.719 x10^20 cubic meters
density of 10 g/cm3
mass = 1.719 x10^24 kg = 27.5 % of earth's mass
= 9.25 % of earth's volume
In contrast, the inner core, which has a radius of about 1275 km (795 mi), is solid. Both core layers are thought to consist largely of iron, with a small percentage of nickel and other elements. Temperatures in the inner core may be as high as 6650°C (12,000°F), and the average density is estimated to be 13 g/cm3. Phew!!! The values we can determine for the inner core are :
volume = 8.939 x10^18 cubic meters
density of 13 g/cm3
mass = 1.162 x10^23 kg = 1.86 % of earth's mass
= 0.48 % of earth's volume

From Here

i got 40 grams per cc for Naquahdah. Now, we don't know what the Icarus planet was like. It could have a core of equal mass (remember: the total mass of the planet has to stay the same for gravity to be the same) and smaller volume (4x as small) or a core of equal size (In this case, we get nearly 4x as much naquahdah to use).

What i do know is that Icarus had naquahdriah. it's far more powerful (at least an order of magnitude) which gives us 10 to 40 seconds of solar output.


Or:
If we can harness the total power of the star (and in SGU they do seem to indicate that) it's not unrealistic to be able to dial Destiny as it is -especially for stargate - in close agreement with a planet with a naquahdriah core.

Now the question is obviously: could a ZPM do it. Well it's consistently said that it could blow up a planet. That puts us at 10^33 joules of energy (total potential energy of the earth). However, we need far less to wreck the surface, and i've seen figures range from 10^26 to hold up a shield to 10^42 joules for Trinity. It's consistently above the energy requirement for Destiny so yes a ZPM could -perhaps comfortably- power the Icarus gate.


To bring us back to black holes:

If we plug the value of 3.8*10^26 joules per second into the black hole hawking radiation calculator, we get a mass of 968kg. Which is not a lot, but looking at the lifetime ,7.634482*10^-8 seconds, we see that it would also blow up in your face in a gamma flash within 76 nanoseconds.


To bring us back to Destiny:


Of course this all means squat if we can't somehow plug it back into the show.

Now, the big question this hinges on is: just how much energy does the Destiny gather from a star?

it's tough to say. 40% energy is not enough, but apparently 100% energy IS enough to dial Earth comfortably. Going back to the Icarus case, we know the planet didn't blow up the second the gate started draining energy (which is sort of what you expect when activating the entire energy supply of the core at once), nor does Destiny's refuelling black out the star (or cause any noticeable dip).

This hints at the energy figure being at least an order of magnitude lower than i anticipated. Still a lot and i think the real value for dialling destiny is at least two orders of magnitude below the star output per second value.

What it does prove is that it's simply not possible for the black holes we saw (the exception being a BH with an accretion disk) to power a stargate do Destiny.




As a recap and afterthought:

-Black holes as a power source makes no sense.
-Black holes significantly reducing the actual power needed to keep it open does make sense
-a star powering the dialling of destiny does make sense

[Ripple in Space]

As a recap and afterthought:
-Black holes as a power source makes no sense.

In reality, sure. Within the confines of the Stargate Universe it's not even disputed. You can go on about Pegasus & Milky Way aren't toooooo far apart until your face turns blue; nevertheless, it takes a huge amount of power to dial a Stargate from Pegasus to Milky Way, and Carter managed to do just that using nothing but a black hole as a power source.

thekillman, I'm really not interested in debating this with you. The only one who might be good for you to talk to is Joe Mallozzi, since your theories directly contradict on-screen dialog:

CARTER
I think I know why. Only one thing in the universe could power a gate that size. It's also the only thing that could allow them to keep the gate open this long, and there's one on the other end.

DANIEL
A black hole.

Your time dilation theory does make sense, but it doesn't negate the fact that a Stargate can open a wormhole powered by nothing but a black hole--an intergalactic wormhole at that.

That's it for my participation with this debate. I was just wondering if they ever mentioned attempting this type of dialing on SGU...

[destiny khan]

I think it is all related to gravity and as we have no freaking idea how gravity actually works, we can only speculate WRONGLY. There is so much blusterous science in stargate that i don't think debating such small stuff matters.

[thekillman]

You can go on about Pegasus & Milky Way aren't toooooo far apart until your face turns blue

well compared to destiny, pegasus is next door.


Can i just say that if they had a black hole with an accretion disk (which can pump out truly stupendous amounts of power) on the other end of the Supergate, and a regular naked black hole on our end, it might be possible?

To me, accepting that a black hole can power a stargate opens a can of worms i'm not willing to accept. Not in the least because it would make almost all of SGA look stupid? they were looking for ZPM's to power the city and dial home. Turns out all they needed was to get a stargate around a black hole for convenient 2-way dialling with minimal (seconds?!) time dilation.

I think it is all related to gravity and as we have no freaking idea how gravity actually works, we can only speculate WRONGLY. There is so much blusterous science in stargate that i don't think debating such small stuff matters.

as noted in this post, this "small matter" could make the entire Atlantis series look stupid.

[Ripple in Space]

well compared to destiny, pegasus is next door.

I mean no offense, honestly, but there is zero logic to your argument here.

YOUR ARGUMENT:
Black holes do not provide power to Stargates.

SHOW'S REBUTTAL:
In "Pegasus Project" Carter & McKay dial the Stargate using a black hole.

YOUR RESPONSE:
Yeah, but they're close together, so that doesn't count.

It would be exactly equivalent to you claiming cars cannot be fueled by gasoline; someone fueling a car with gasoline, and driving from Rome to Paris; then you replying, "yeah, well that doesn't count as gasoline being used to fuel that car because Paris & Rome are only 850 miles apart! Gasoline can't fuel a car, ever. Never ever ever ever!!!!!!!"

Can i just say that if they had a black hole with an accretion disk (which can pump out truly stupendous amounts of power) on the other end of the Supergate, and a regular naked black hole on our end, it might be possible?

To me, accepting that a black hole can power a stargate opens a can of worms i'm not willing to accept. Not in the least because it would make almost all of SGA look stupid? they were looking for ZPM's to power the city and dial home. Turns out all they needed was to get a stargate around a black hole for convenient 2-way dialling with minimal (seconds?!) time dilation.

as noted in this post, this "small matter" could make the entire Atlantis series look stupid.

No it doesn't.

They had no way of reprogramming a Milky Way gate to correspond to the Pegasus one.

They had no way of placing a Pegasus gate near a black hole.

They had no way of placing a Milky Way gate near a black hole.

Even if they magically found a Pegasus gate by a black hole, already magically programmed to dial a Milky Way gate near a black hole, what would that accomplish? Send Sheppard out to die in the void of space in a puddle jumper with no shields or hyperdrive? PJs don't even have especially fast sub-light engines. So basically delivering Sheppard's corpse to such a distant future, the Earth is probably long gone?

[garhkal]

In reality, sure. Within the confines of the Stargate Universe it's not even disputed. You can go on about Pegasus & Milky Way aren't toooooo far apart until your face turns blue; nevertheless, it takes a huge amount of power to dial a Stargate from Pegasus to Milky Way, and Carter managed to do just that using nothing but a black hole as a power source.

But the Pegasus galaxy is much closer to us than wherever the destiny is at.

[Ripple in Space]

But the Pegasus galaxy is much closer to us than wherever the destiny is at.

That statement was in response to thekillman stating, "-Black holes as a power source makes no sense."

I would also argue that AA batteries are a power source. The fact that they could not power an intergalactic wormhole has no bearing on it being a power source.

garhkal, I've always really liked you, and have had a great deal of respect for you. I will assume you did not see the quote I had attached to my statement, nor did you see the post I made directly above your own.

[thekillman]

That statement was in response to thekillman stating, "-Black holes as a power source makes no sense."

I would also argue that AA batteries are a power source. The fact that they could not power an intergalactic wormhole has no bearing on it being a power source.

garhkal, I've always really liked you, and have had a great deal of respect for you. I will assume you did not see the quote I had attached to my statement, nor did you see the post I made directly above your own.

I assume some kind of communication error occured.

you said:

You can go on about Pegasus & Milky Way aren't toooooo far apart until your face turns blue

I said

well compared to destiny, pegasus is next door.

I don't understand why you reply with:

YOUR ARGUMENT:
Black holes do not provide power to Stargates.

SHOW'S REBUTTAL:
In "Pegasus Project" Carter & McKay dial the Stargate using a black hole.

YOUR RESPONSE:
Yeah, but they're close together, so that doesn't count.

I prefer to go with:

My ARGUMENT:
Naked black holes do not provide power to Stargates.

SHOW'S REBUTTAL:
In "Pegasus Project" Carter & McKay dial the Stargate using a black hole.

My RESPONSE:
1: it's a BH with an accretion disk.
2: Dialling Pegasus is a lot easier than Destiny.

[Ripple in Space]

I assume some kind of communication error occured.

I was responding to your:

Statement 1:

Because i do not believe for one second that the black hole is the power source.

Statement 2:

-Black holes as a power source makes no sense.

I don't understand why you reply with:

I replied with that because of your aforementioned quotes saying black holes are not a power source in the Stargate franchise. You are more than welcome to deny that you made those claims. I will not argue with you about it, all I did was copy & paste your words on this very page.

I prefer to go with:

Okay. That's swell