Explanation of Lantean Stupidity

[Durgia]

I have read a lot of threads on here with posters that cannot figure out how the Pegasus Ancients/Lanteans could lose a war to the wraith, or do some of the other stupid things they did.

For you people here is my theory on the Lanteans: They are stupid. Really it is that easy.

Let me explain further; the Ancients were the most powerful race ever seen in SG. They had a galactic empire for dozens of millions of years and developed amazing pieces of technology surpassing any other race in accomplishments. As the grandest of accomplishment they were able to ascend starting a few million years ago. This was their true downfall as a corporeal species.

When the plague hit, many of their people died, an undisclosed number of Ancients ascended in the MW and a few that were not advanced enough to ascend fled to Pegasus. This already suggests that the Ancients who went to Pegasus were not as advanced as the rest of their brethren as they could not ascend.

In Pegasus we know that these “ungifted” Ancients continued to study ascension as a big part of their existence. We saw machines to manipulate DNA, Time Dilation Fields, and energy based life forms held captive, all to help them understand why they could not ascend when their brethren could. This occupied them for some 2-3 million years and they started seeding humans back to the galaxy as they prepared to ascend.

In that time we know that at least some of them ascended but not how many. So imagine for 2-3 Million years continually having the best and brightest of your race ascend, always leaving the “ungifted” people to run the society. This is likely why there were so few great accomplishments of science in this period of their civilization as most efforts went to ascending, and once that had occurred the annoying non-interference clause kicked in.

This also explains why their population was small as they kept ascending and not concentrating as much on race expansion.

After millions of years the only remaining population was essentially the most “ungifted” descendants of the “ungifted” Ancients that fled MW.

So when they discovered those pesky Wraiths, most of their resources were concentrating on ascension with only the stupidest of the “ungifted”, “ungifted” ancients left to fight.

To be fair even the stupidest of the "ungifted", "ungifted" were still amazingly advanced compared to most species.

[Krisz]

I sort of feel sorry for the Lanteans now after reading your theory, but it seems to explain a lot!

Add arrogance, such as the kind exhibited in 'The Return', and there is no hope really! They were too stupid to even notice that the 'lesser evolved race' was clever enough to change the Replicator base program!

[min min light]

Ha! I love this theory! That neatly explain why these supposedly "superior" people were such screw-ups!

[Quadhelix]

Add arrogance, such as the kind exhibited in 'The Return', and there is no hope really! They were too stupid to even notice that the 'lesser evolved race' was clever enough to change the Replicator base program!

...what? I'm not sure what you're getting at - when the Replicators showed up, the Ancients weren't exactly reading their base program.

Also, even if the Ancients knew that the Atlantis expedition had tampered with the Replicators' base program, I fail to see why they should suspect that the Replicators would be able to do the same.

That neatly explain why these supposedly "superior" people were such screw-ups!

How exactly were they "screw-ups"? If I recall correctly, most of their serious failures (Arcturus, the replicators, ... I can't think of many other failed projects) were rushed out prematurely due to the war.

As for the war itself, that does raise the question of how they allowed the Wraith to become a power serious enough to challenge them, but even a small galaxy like Pegasus is really big and, if the Ancients were suffering from a population crisis, they might have been too busy tending to their own affairs to really pay attention to the rise of a rival power.

[min min light]

How exactly were they "screw-ups"?

Take the Attero device for example. It had a fatal flaw, destroying stargates -- so did he dismantle it and destroy the pieces? NO. He stored it in a vault with secret code that anyone could crack, and put a red flashing light on it that said "nooooo don't turn this on" or something. I mean, come on!

[Quadhelix]

It had a fatal flaw, destroying stargates -- so did he dismantle it and destroy the pieces?

The alpha version of a weapon that could end the war in their favor has a single flaw that may or may not be correctable, and you want them to destroy the whole thing rather than study it to see what caused the problem?

My point is that the decision to destroy the parts of the Attero device is a judgment call, not the only correct response. We know that the Attero device came back to cause problems, but to the Ancients, to possibility of correcting that problem may have seem worthwhile enough to keep the device around for further study.

Moreover, even if they decided that they had no use for the device whatsoever, why would they take time away from fighting a war that they are already losing to destroy it?

Also, let's not forget that Janus was something of a rogue to begin with. He was fond of taking risks that the other Lanteans thought were unwise.

[The Flyattractor]

I also think it has a lot to do with they also Dumed Up the Wraith a good bit (or A WHOLE HECK OF A BUTT LOAD) after all the Hype they gave them at first.

[min min light]

We know that the Attero device came back to cause problems, but to the Ancients, to possibility of correcting that problem may have seem worthwhile enough to keep the device around for further study.

Because they never thought things through. The smartest race in the universe and their technology was constantly biting them in the ass - the Attero device (how much time would it have taken to dismantle it and put the parts in different sections of the city?), that DNA-changing machine, the self-replicating nanobots, the quarantine system that doesn't allow anyone to override it if it's malfunctioning ... granted these things were all great for us, the audience, but over time the Ancients started looking more like the bad guy in a cartoon than geniuses.

[Quadhelix]

Because they never thought things through. The smartest race in the universe and their technology was constantly biting them in the ass
....
granted these things were all great for us, the audience, but over time the Ancients started looking more like the bad guy in a cartoon than geniuses.

I can understand where you are coming from with this. However, I don't believe that the evidence really supports this position.

Part of it is that we are playing Monday-Morning Quarterback to the Ancients' decisions: we know which ones went wrong and perhaps should have been avoided and which ones went right.

On another note, it's worth pointing out that the show cherry-picks examples of the Ancients' failures simply by nature of needing to tell a dramatic story. The failed experimental reactor that blows up 5/6 of a star system is a good set piece for exciting action and deep character reflection. The successful experimental program that increased the Ancients' hyperdrive speeds by 15%, however, has no place in the narrative.


Relatively unimportant responses to specific "failures" (Attero device, DNA device, etc.) in tl;dr spoiler tags:

Spoiler:

the Attero device (how much time would it have taken to dismantle it and put the parts in different sections of the city?)

When you talk about the Attero device, you aren't talking about "the Ancients," you are talking about Janus. That's kind of an important point, because you're generalizing his recklessness to all of the Ancients, despite the fact that the other Ancients repeatedly criticize him for how reckless he is.

On a side note, after Janus shut down the device, it never bothered him or the Ancients again - just the main characters. Thus, you cannot really say that the Attero device, "came back to bite them."

that DNA-changing machine

...was never a problem for the Ancients. It only became a problem when somebody who wasn't supposed to be there came waltzing in and pushing buttons.

the self-replicating nanobots

The replicators, I'll grant you, did backfire for the Ancients.

However, ex ante, self-replicating soldiers to help fight a war that you are losing seems like a really good idea, especially when your enemy is using clone soldiers (i.e., copy their winning technique).

the quarantine system that doesn't allow anyone to override it if it's malfunctioning

Thinking back to "Hot Zone," where one of the infected people went crazy and hotwired a door to open, I was thinking that the quarantine system is too easy to override, not too hard.

Again, it's not that the points that you raise aren't necessarily valid. I just don't agree that the Ancients' decisions were as obviously wrong as you seem to think.

[min min light]

Again, it's not that the points that you raise aren't necessarily valid. I just don't agree that the Ancients' decisions were as obviously wrong as you seem to think.

You have valid points as well, but I'm afraid they can't undo the cumulative effect of seventeen seasons of Ancient foibles.

[Quadhelix]

You have valid points as well, but I'm afraid they can't undo the cumulative effect of seventeen seasons of Ancient foibles.

I'm still waiting for someone to name one Ancient failure.

But seriously, over the past 5,000 years, how many things have we left that will be a problem for future generations? Nuclear waste, global warming, and other recent problems come to mind.

Now consider that the Ancients' history was over 10,000 times as long as that.

[min min light]

I'm still waiting for someone to name one Ancient failure.

I gave you several, you just didn't agree that they were failures.

But seriously, over the past 5,000 years, how many things have we left that will be a problem for future generations? Nuclear waste, global warming, and other recent problems come to mind.

But we're not the almighty smarter-than-thou gate-creating Ancients. We can barely create an appliance that'll last out the year without repairs, let alone a wormhole to another galaxy. We don't have a reputation to live up to like the Ancients.

[Quadhelix]

I gave you several, you just didn't agree that they were failures.

That was part of the joke.

I was also poking a bit of fun the argument I was quoting, which I see as as boiling down to, "Interesting points, but you're wrong because...because." The joke was sort of, "If you can ignore my arguments and just declare yourself right, then I can just ignore your arguments and declare myself right!"

I guess it wasn't a very good joke.

But we're not the almighty smarter-than-thou gate-creating Ancients. We can barely create an appliance that'll last out the year without repairs, let alone a wormhole to another galaxy. We don't have a reputation to live up to like the Ancients.

My point is that the Ancients actually live up to that reputation relatively well. The Ancients have been around since our ancestors were effectively squirrels: in that amount of time, no matter how wise or advanced the civilization/species, major mistakes are practically inevitable.

It's actually astounding how few truly problematic things the Ancients left behind.

[min min light]

The joke was sort of, "If you can ignore my arguments and just declare yourself right, then I can just ignore your arguments and declare myself right!"

I really truly was not declaring myself right, I was only saying that I view things differently. On a different night I might have gone into that line-by-line but I was tired so I just cut to the chase. But that probably wasn't fair to you since you were so specific and detailed, so I'll try to go into more depth tomorrow.

[Quadhelix]

I really truly was not declaring myself right, I was only saying that I view things differently.

Oops. I'm sorry I misunderstood that.

On a different night I might have gone into that line-by-line but I was tired so I just cut to the chase. But that probably wasn't fair to you since you were so specific and detailed, so I'll try to go into more depth tomorrow.

If you are interested in going line-by-line on whether those are "failures," that could definitely be a fun and interesting discussion.

However, I think that we may have hit upon another interesting topic: even if all of them were truly unqualified failures, how severe of a mark is that against the Ancients? They have a reputation to uphold (which makes failures seem more severe) but also a very long history (which makes failures more likely simply due to the law of large numbers).