Best alternate reality episode?

[The Dude]

Personally, I found the episode to be a bit boring. I don't like Las Vegas, I don't watch CSI, and I don't care about alternate reality counterparts to the main characters. Boring...

Yeah I can see where you're coming from with the Las Vegas CSI thing. Generally speaking it's better to turn on Atlantis and see, you know, Atlantis. Some kind of space adventure. Definitely see that point of view.

But I'd challenge your opinion of alternate reality counterparts. From a writing point of view what alternate realities allow is for us to see our characters from an angle which we wouldn't normally have access. From this perspective Vegas Sheppard is the same character as Atlantis Sheppard and we're not seeing two different characters, we're seeing one character from two different perspectives. What I mean is that, through Vegas Sheppard we are getting to know Atlantis Sheppard more intimately than had we never met Vegas Sheppard. So when we get back to Atlantis Sheppard, we should know him a little better because of Vegas Sheppard, see what I'm saying?

This is why Rodney says things like "how one instance can change everything" and "same character"; he says "there's isn't really any difference between you and that other Sheppard I met" (or something to that effect). This is why the writers are putting this dialogue in the mouths of the characters, to try and get the audience not to look at this as "real Sheppard" and "alternate reality counterpart" but simply as "Sheppard" but in two different environments. And through this, allow us more intimacy with Sheppard. This is why reset buttons/alternate timelines/realities can be a really good thing if done the right way- such as the case here, I'd argue.

The writers also hit this one the right way in having this Sheppard actually affect the outcome of the "real" storyline by diverting the signal into various other realities. This is a great episode.

Alternate realities also allow us to challenge our ideas of questions like which story is the "real" story? After Moebius aren't we watching "alternate reality counterparts" from there on out? How do we know Vegas Sheppard isn't the main character and Atlantis Sheppard is the alternate reality counterpart? More screentime?

[Snowman37]

Yeah I can see where you're coming from with the Las Vegas CSI thing. Generally speaking it's better to turn on Atlantis and see, you know, Atlantis. Some kind of space adventure. Definitely see that point of view.

It wasn't that we didn't see Atlantis, but rather... that I don't like Las Vegas. It is a dreadfully disgusting city. Couldn't it have been Las Angelas or something?

But I'd challenge your opinion of alternate reality counterparts. From a writing point of view what alternate realities allow is for us to see our characters from an angle which we wouldn't normally have access. From this perspective Vegas Sheppard is the same character as Atlantis Sheppard and we're not seeing two different characters, we're seeing one character from two different perspectives. What I mean is that, through Vegas Sheppard we are getting to know Atlantis Sheppard more intimately than had we never met Vegas Sheppard. So when we get back to Atlantis Sheppard, we should know him a little better because of Vegas Sheppard, see what I'm saying?

None of this resonates with me. You're assuming that the "Vegas" and "Prime" Sheppards have the same history. Clearly they don't, given the "Vegas" Sheppard was a washed out cop. I get that they're the same character, but... I just didn't care for the "Vegas" counterpart. He was... boring.

This is why Rodney says things like "how one instance can change everything" and "same character"; he says "there's isn't really any difference between you and that other Sheppard I met" (or something to that effect). This is why the writers are putting this dialogue in the mouths of the characters, to try and get the audience not to look at this as "real Sheppard" and "alternate reality counterpart" but simply as "Sheppard" but in two different environments. And through this, allow us more intimacy with Sheppard. This is why reset buttons/alternate timelines/realities can be a really good thing if done the right way- such as the case here, I'd argue.

The writers also hit this one the right way in having this Sheppard actually affect the outcome of the "real" storyline by diverting the signal into various other realities. This is a great episode.

I don't mind alternate reality episodes nor time-travel ones that end in a reset if there is a consequence of some kind. The signal that the ZPM-hive received in the finale... it could have just as easily been Earth's coordinates acquired by some other means. The finale wasn't dependent on "Vegas," we get some forgettable dialogue, and that's it. Now, "Vegas" would have been far more interesting if one or more of our characters had crossed over to the alternate reality. Alternatively, if there'd been more than some spatial coordinates accidentally transmitted from an alternate reality. The consequence was just too weak. I'm only interested in alternate reality/timeline episodes that have a consequence. "Before I Sleep," "McKay and Mrs. Miller," "The Last Man," and "The Daedalus Variations" all had a direct impact on the main characters. Nothing that happened in "Vegas" impacted anyone. Like I said, Earth's coordinates could have come from somewhere else, and the result would have been exactly the same. "Vegas" was just an excuse to copy CSI.

Alternate realities also allow us to challenge our ideas of questions like which story is the "real" story? After Moebius aren't we watching "alternate reality counterparts" from there on out? How do we know Vegas Sheppard isn't the main character and Atlantis Sheppard is the alternate reality counterpart? More screentime?

When it comes to alternate realities, the one the series follows is the prime reality. The one-off alternate reality episodes would be the alternate realities. As for time travel, that's a bit more complicated. In the case of "Moebius," SG-1 at the beginning and end are the same team. The timeline is the same more or less. The third timeline is just the original with subtle changes. The only alternate timeline we saw was the second timeline. Look at this below to see my point a little easier if you're still confused as to what I mean...

Most people see "Moebius" and see...
Timeline A: Original
Timeline B: Alternate (Bizarro SG-1)
Timeline C: Alternate (identical SG-1 replaced original SG-1)

I see "Moebius" and see...
Timeline A: Original
Timeline B: Alternate (Bizarro SG-1)
Timeline C: Restored (SG-1 is SG-1, what's the problem?)

Now, if Part 2 ended in a radically different timeline; then I'd understand people's frustrations. I guess I just don't see fish in Jack's pond as a radical change.

[Ancientechexpert]

As for time travel, that's a bit more complicated. In the case of "Moebius," SG-1 at the beginning and end are the same team. The timeline is the same more or less. The third timeline is just the original with subtle changes. The only alternate timeline we saw was the second timeline. Look at this below to see my point a little easier if you're still confused as to what I mean...

Most people see "Moebius" and see...
Timeline A: Original
Timeline B: Alternate (Bizarro SG-1)
Timeline C: Alternate (identical SG-1 replaced original SG-1)

I see "Moebius" and see...
Timeline A: Original
Timeline B: Alternate (Bizarro SG-1)
Timeline C: Restored (SG-1 is SG-1, what's the problem?)

Now, if Part 2 ended in a radically different timeline; then I'd understand people's frustrations. I guess I just don't see fish in Jack's pond as a radical change.

The SG-1 at the start of Moebius, and SG-1 at the end were not the same, but they were very similar. It's the fact Timeline C-SG-1 (as you have dubbed them) didn't have to go back in time that sets the two appart. Because, as Timeline A-SG-1 showed, going back in time to ancient Egypt will result in failure. However, they were able to ensure that SG-1-C succeeded in obtaining a ZPM.

I know it's a little confusing, but what can I tell you, it's time-travel. If a time-travel story isn't confusing, it's not that good.

[Snowman37]

My argument is that SG-1A and SG-1C are virtually one and the same. Yeah, SG-1A perished in ancient Egypt while Daniel lived out his life with SG-1B from the bizarro future, and SG-1C went on to fight the Ori. However, up until the point of diversion (the arrival of the ZPM), SG-1A and SG-1C are virtually the same. SG-1C didn't replace SG-1A, rather, they are the restoration of SG-1A, only with subtle differences (events in ancient history that weren't suppose to happen), fish in O'Neill's pond, minor differences.

[Darian]

Point of view SG1 season 3

[Ancientechexpert]

Point of view SG1 season 3

The thing is, it isn't a restoration. You're only considering SG-1's fate. The timeline they left continued on, without them, and they created a seperate timeline (B). SG-1B then created another timeline, in which SG-1 never left, and Timeline C was radically different because of that.

[Snowman37]

I think you meant to quote me? Anyway, I don't subscribe to the multi-verse theory in regards to time travel. Rather, I believe in the paradoxial changing universe theory. When SG-1 traveled back in time, their adventure in 3,000 BC changed their future into Bizarro SG-1's future. When Bizarro SG-1 went back to 3,000 BC to set time right, their future changed back to the original future. However, SG-1 finds that they don't have to travel back in time. They have the ZPM, and the tape left behind corresponds with reality as they know it. Did you catch O'Neill's response to his other self saying there's no fish in his pond? It was subtle, but RDA did this very subtle "Uh, oh" look. At the end, with the fish, "Close enough..." haha Anyway, I see it as a changing universe.

Explain this to me. How does changing the past CLONE THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE INTO A PARALLEL REALITY??? Where does all of that matter come from? It just poofs into existence, just 'cause?

[Ancientechexpert]

I think you meant to quote me? Anyway, I don't subscribe to the multi-verse theory in regards to time travel. Rather, I believe in the paradoxial changing universe theory. When SG-1 traveled back in time, their adventure in 3,000 BC changed their future into Bizarro SG-1's future. When Bizarro SG-1 went back to 3,000 BC to set time right, their future changed back to the original future. However, SG-1 finds that they don't have to travel back in time. They have the ZPM, and the tape left behind corresponds with reality as they know it. Did you catch O'Neill's response to his other self saying there's no fish in his pond? It was subtle, but RDA did this very subtle "Uh, oh" look. At the end, with the fish, "Close enough..." haha Anyway, I see it as a changing universe.

Explain this to me. How does changing the past CLONE THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE INTO A PARALLEL REALITY??? Where does all of that matter come from? It just poofs into existence, just 'cause?

Well, I know I don't, and I doubt that you do either, have a degree in quantum physics. And quite frankly, we're basing both of our arguments off of what we've learned from science fiction, so I actually doubt that either of us are right.

But I will say this, this is my favorite thing about science fiction: it can make people believe in the fantastic. It can inspire us to debate and argue, and become passionate about things that most people would say is impossible, but it teaches us to know that nothing is impossible, and with enough spirit, anything can happen because fans and nerds like us will make it happen.

[Jack O´neill]

SG1: 2010
SGA:The Last Man
SGU: Twin Destinies

[Snowman37]

Well, I know I don't, and I doubt that you do either, have a degree in quantum physics. And quite frankly, we're basing both of our arguments off of what we've learned from science fiction, so I actually doubt that either of us are right.

You don't need a degree in quantum physics to realize that a change to the past cloning the entire universe from nothing is problematic at best. As for doubting that any of us are right, you're probably right on that one. Who's to say parallel realities exist? Who's to say time travel is possible? Story tellers, naturally.

But I will say this, this is my favorite thing about science fiction: it can make people believe in the fantastic. It can inspire us to debate and argue, and become passionate about things that most people would say is impossible, but it teaches us to know that nothing is impossible, and with enough spirit, anything can happen because fans and nerds like us will make it happen.

Replace fans and nerds with scientists and engineers, and I'll more or less agree. For me, that is the draw of science-fiction: anything can happen, and the impossible is merely a barrier to be surpassed, such as the sound barrier.

SG1: 2010
SGA:The Last Man
SGU: Twin Destinies

"2010" was an alternate future, nullified by O'Neill's note to the past. "The Last Man" was an alternate future, nullified by Sheppard's return to the present day. Finally, "Twin Destinies" was outright time travel. The opening post is asking about parallel reality episodes, not time-travel-induced alternate-timeline episodes.

I've explored the parallel reality episodes in depth in this thread. They are...

SG-1
1-19 "There But for the Grace of God"
3-6 "Point of View"
6-13 "Sight Unseen"
9-13 "Ripple Effect"
10-13 "The Road Not Taken"

Atlantis
3-8 "McKay and Mrs. Miller"
5-4 "The Daedalus Variations"
5-19 "Vegas"

I didn't watch SGU, but I don't believe the show touched on this subject.

[The Dude]

It wasn't that we didn't see Atlantis, but rather... that I don't like Las Vegas. It is a dreadfully disgusting city. Couldn't it have been Las Angelas or something?

The reason it was Las Vegas was to illustrate the ultimate gamble made by Sheppard at the end. Gambling with fate/freewill was the theme here, and we're seeing this directly in the scene where the wraith bluffs Sheppard in the casino card game (this evokes the scene in Rising where Sheppard flips a coin to decide his fate, remember that scene?).

This setting theme also gives the wraith the ability to generate the large sum of money which is Sheppard's true antagonist in this episode; the wraith using his mental abilities to always win at gambling sets the stage for him to effectuate his plan. The setting had to be a dreadfully disgusting city- it is the opposite of Atlantis and that is what we are being presented with: opposition. Atlantis, nice and neat, sitting in the middle of an ocean, Sheppard is a winner as opposed to Las Vegas, mean and dirty, sitting in the middle of a desert, Sheppard is a loser. This theme of opposition is why at the beginning we have Sheppard walking away from the scene of the crime and we have him dressed in black which lingers into a fade to white.

None of this resonates with me. You're assuming that the "Vegas" and "Prime" Sheppards have the same history. Clearly they don't, given the "Vegas" Sheppard was a washed out cop. I get that they're the same character, but... I just didn't care for the "Vegas" counterpart. He was... boring.

Yes true; he is in opposition to "exciting" Atlantis Sheppard. This is said to be the result of one, single event having a different outcome (the field medic) and this lays the foundation for the showdown with fate at the end of the episode in which the result of one, single event will prove to change everything- not only in Vegas Sheppard's reality, but Atlantis Sheppard's too.

I don't mind alternate reality episodes nor time-travel ones that end in a reset if there is a consequence of some kind. The signal that the ZPM-hive received in the finale... it could have just as easily been Earth's coordinates acquired by some other means. The finale wasn't dependent on "Vegas," we get some forgettable dialogue, and that's it. Now, "Vegas" would have been far more interesting if one or more of our characters had crossed over to the alternate reality. Alternatively, if there'd been more than some spatial coordinates accidentally transmitted from an alternate reality. The consequence was just too weak. I'm only interested in alternate reality/timeline episodes that have a consequence. "Before I Sleep," "McKay and Mrs. Miller," "The Last Man," and "The Daedalus Variations" all had a direct impact on the main characters. Nothing that happened in "Vegas" impacted anyone. Like I said, Earth's coordinates could have come from somewhere else, and the result would have been exactly the same. "Vegas" was just an excuse to copy CSI.

What interests us is obviously subjective so I can completely understand anyone's lack of interest here, though I don't share the same subjectivity. I do also agree that it really looks like someone wanted to play behind the camera in a different way but this brings up something else I think should be considered here, in that you say "we get forgettable dialogue and that's it" we are also getting some of the most beautiful camerawork in the entire series. Even if you don't like the episode you have to admit the camerawork was sweet.

Again I also would still argue that we are getting a pretty deep character study of Sheppard which we would never have otherwise had the opportunity to see.

When it comes to alternate realities, the one the series follows is the prime reality.

Okay but then Atlantis is in fact all alternate realty since it is a continuation of SG-1 which has become an alternate reality at the end of Moebius. So we can then wonder if perhaps Vegas Sheppard is the real timeline Sheppard. I know what you're suggesting is that, the one you see the most of is the one you consider the real Sheppard- but this episode also gives us the avenue to explore the ideas of alternate realities/timelines and what they mean in the context of the story.

I guess I just don't see fish in Jack's pond as a radical change.

Yeah me either.

[rushy]

SG1 There But For The Grace Of God
SGA Daedalus Variations

[garhkal]

I've explored the parallel reality episodes in depth in this thread. They are...

SG-1
#1"There But for the Grace of God"
#4"Point of View"
#2"Ripple Effect"
#5"Sight Unseen"
#3"The Road Not Taken"

Atlantis
#1"McKay and Mrs. Miller"
#3"The Daedalus Variations"
#2"Vegas"

I didn't watch SGU, but I don't believe the show touched on this subject.

Of the list above, i put My 1-5/1-3 top listing..

[myhelix]

SGU: Twin Destinies

[Snowman37]

That was a time travel episode.

[JT-2]

Vegas, without question.