The Next Generation (Season 1)

[hlndncr]

You may enjoy the episode "The Chase", it's a bit of a shocker like that SG1 moment, but unfortunately it doesn't happen until season 6 (ep 20)

That seems a little late in the game to get to a great episode. I'm assuming there are several worthwhile episodes in between.

[hlndncr]

I admit I gave a little groan when I turned on The Battle and I saw the Ferengi were back. At least this time they were a little toned down.

I did enjoy the backstory about Picard's former command. We get to see that he had a little Kirk in him in his younger days when his back was up against a wall.

[Snowman37]

Why groan when the Ferengi show up? I find them very amusing, even more so, when they were supposed to be as threatening as the Klingons. haha

[hlndncr]

Why groan when the Ferengi show up? I find them very amusing, even more so, when they were supposed to be as threatening as the Klingons. haha

I guess because even when they were meant to be threatening they still seemed like a joke I didn't find very amusing.

[Snowman37]

It's a television program, it's purpose is to entertain you. Try not to take it so serious.

[hlndncr]

It's a television program, it's purpose is to entertain you. Try not to take it so serious.

I'm not. I'm just sharing my impressions. I think you might be taking my comments too seriously. I enjoy watching it or else I wouldn't be taking the time to write about it.

[Morbo]

i think a lot of you are looking BACK at the episodes with the Ferengi and taking what you already know about them from watching DS9, instead of thinking about viewing them for the first time as TNG was originally airing.

[The Urban Spaceman]

I'm not. I'm just sharing my impressions. I think you might be taking my comments too seriously. I enjoy watching it or else I wouldn't be taking the time to write about it.

Don't worry, Snowman37 just has a little difficulty separating the personal pronouns sometimes. Also, since he can only watch television that 1) His mother will like, 2) God will like, 3) Is not animated or "cartoons", I don't think he's really the most impartial person to be criticising other peoples' subjective interpretations of television shows.

Right, Snowman37?

On the subject of Ferengi, I read somewhere that Armin Shimmerman, in DS9, was determined to undo all the harm he did to the Ferengi in the initial TNG episode in which they premiered. And that the writers, once they realised nobody would ever take the Ferengi seriously as an enemy, decided to take the Ferengi on a more comical journey, which pretty much starts happening right after The Last Outpost.

I also read that one of the producers (might have been Ira Steven Behr), often found that the rapid Trek fans dislikes or even outright hated the 2 or so Ferengi episodes which ran throughout DS9's series, but that the more casual watchers were less critical and liked the Ferengi much more, because they could empathise with the very human-like Ferengi better than the morally superior 'perfect' Federation.

I personally love the way the went in DS9 (and the mid/later TNG episodes). I particularly think the Rules of Acquisition were inspired -- Rule of Acquisition #34: War is good for business. Rule of Acquisition #35: Peace is good for business -- a fine satirical take on the religious dogma of our modern times.

And yes, there are some good episodes before 'The Chase' of course, particularly the introduction of the Borg! But "The Chase" is the Trek equivalent of the SG1 ep you mentioned. Also, TNG tends to do 1 or 2 "Q" episodes per season, and they are well worth watching I think. John de Lancie is a great actor.

[Snowman37]

Don't worry, Snowman37 just has a little difficulty separating the personal pronouns sometimes. Also, since he can only watch television that 1) His mother will like, 2) God will like, 3) Is not animated or "cartoons", I don't think he's really the most impartial person to be criticising other peoples' subjective interpretations of television shows.

Right, Snowman37?

Pronouns have nothing to do with the issue at hand. I simply don't understand why the Ferengi of DS9 are funny while the Ferengi of early TNG are not. They are equally absurd. Further, my television viewing habits are irrelevant. Watching TV with one's mother does not preclude one from watching TV alone. What is wrong with trying to be the best Christian one can be? That does not make one perfect for only God is perfect, but living for God has served me well in life. Finally, what's wrong with not watching cartoons? I'm a grown up, stopped watching Saturday morning cartoons nearly a decade ago. You attack me, then you call me impartial? Are you stupid? I don't mean that as a forum rules violating offense. I ask a genuine question. Besides, we're talking about a fictional race of people and how they were portrayed on two separate TV shows. Chill out.

On the subject of Ferengi, I read somewhere that Armin Shimmerman, in DS9, was determined to undo all the harm he did to the Ferengi in the initial TNG episode in which they premiered. And that the writers, once they realised nobody would ever take the Ferengi seriously as an enemy, decided to take the Ferengi on a more comical journey, which pretty much starts happening right after The Last Outpost.

I don't see how Shimmerman "harmed" the Ferengi. Ferengi as villains would never have worked regardless of who the actors were. As for taking the Ferengi on a more comical journey, I say they were on a comical journey already in "The Last Outpost."

I also read that one of the producers (might have been Ira Steven Behr), often found that the rapid Trek fans dislikes or even outright hated the 2 or so Ferengi episodes which ran throughout DS9's series, but that the more casual watchers were less critical and liked the Ferengi much more, because they could empathise with the very human-like Ferengi better than the morally superior 'perfect' Federation.

Interesting, I'd have thought fans and casual viewers would have both liked DS9's Ferengi episodes. As for casual viewers relating to the Ferengi more so than the perfect-like Starfleet officers, of coarse. The Ferengi represented us now, Sisko and the human characters represented an optimistic future.

And yes, there are some good episodes before 'The Chase' of course, particularly the introduction of the Borg! But "The Chase" is the Trek equivalent of the SG1 ep you mentioned. Also, TNG tends to do 1 or 2 "Q" episodes per season, and they are well worth watching I think. John de Lancie is a great actor.

There are plenty of phenomenal episodes throughout the series. TNG is best enjoyed if you relax and embrace the goofy nature of the show. Everyone found the show's groove in the third season, but it lost that extraordinary fun element from the first two seasons. There were no longer episodes such as "Lonely Among Us" or "Where No One Has Gone Before." However, the shift in story telling lead to episodes such as "Yesterday's Enterprise" and "The Best of Both Worlds."

[hlndncr]

i think a lot of you are looking BACK at the episodes with the Ferengi and taking what you already know about them from watching DS9, instead of thinking about viewing them for the first time as TNG was originally airing.

Well I've never seen DS9 so that certainly isn't affecting my POV.

[hlndncr]

I watched Hide and Q last night. There were definitely some ridiculous moments, but I think this is one shows us much more of the Q we know and love (at least I do) than what we saw in the pilot.

So funny seeing the "grown up" version of Wesley now that Wil Wheaton is an adult. *giggle snort* They should have added a beard.

One thing I'll say is that I think John de Lancie (Sp?) really brings out the best in Patrick Stewart. Their scenes together just crackle with energy. That was fun to watch.

And of course hearing a master quote Shakespeare is always a treat.

[The Urban Spaceman]

Pronouns have nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Au contraire, mon frere. I don't know if you're aware of this, but many times, when people post their opinions, you automatically respond with something along the lines of "Why would you think that? I think it's this instead..." (non verbatim) which makes you appear critical of others peoples opinions and self-centred. I'm not saying you are overly critical and self-centred -- I don't know you. Merely that this is how you often come across.

I simply don't understand why the Ferengi of DS9 are funny while the Ferengi of early TNG are not.

Yes, exactly! You don't understand it but that doesn't make other peoples' opinions less valid or less important than your own. Many people think that stand-up comedy is funny. Just because I don't happen to agree with them doesn't make it less funny to them.

Further, my television viewing habits are irrelevant. Watching TV with one's mother does not preclude one from watching TV alone.

I never said it was.

What is wrong with trying to be the best Christian one can be?

Did I imply that there is something wrong with that in this thread?

That does not make one perfect for only God is perfect, but living for God has served me well in life.

The only god worth speaking of in the Trek forums is KAHLESS! Qapla'!

Finally, what's wrong with not watching cartoons? I'm a grown up, stopped watching Saturday morning cartoons nearly a decade ago.

Just because something is animated does not make it a cartoon. Star Trek itself has an animated series. And just because something is a cartoon does not make it suitable only for children. Many animated/cartoon shows are rife with adult humour. The Simpsons, Futurama, The Tick... I could go on but this isn't really the thread for it.

You attack me, then you call me impartial?

Attack you? I make three observations:

1) That shows with adult themes -- sex, nudity, swearing, gratuitous violence -- are not films that you watch, because your mother does not approve.

2) That you do not watch shows which involve anti-Christian views or beliefs, because these do not mesh with your faith.

3) That you do not watch animated programs.

How is this an attack? If I am wrong with any of these observations, please do let me know. I'm quite happy to go and quote the exact posts you made which stated these three things in your own words.

Are you stupid?

Yes, clearly I'm not bringing enough sandwiches to the picnic.

Though if you please, we stupid people prefer the term "cognitively deficient", which is more politically correct. Or "lacking mental fortitude" if you want to make it sound really nice.

I don't mean that as a forum rules violating offense. I ask a genuine question.

I hope the answer brings you peace and clarity.

Chill out.

Let he who is without sin...

I don't see how Shimmerman "harmed" the Ferengi. Ferengi as villains would never have worked regardless of who the actors were. As for taking the Ferengi on a more comical journey, I say they were on a comical journey already in "The Last Outpost."

You would have to ask Armin Shimmerman with regard to why he felt he ruined the Ferengi in the first TNG episode they starred in. My guess would be that he received direction in his script along the lines of "be menacing" but then could not reconcile 'menacing' with wearing a costume that made him look like a ridiculous Norwegian troll.

Interesting, I'd have thought fans and casual viewers would have both liked DS9's Ferengi episodes. As for casual viewers relating to the Ferengi more so than the perfect-like Starfleet officers, of coarse.

...cast the first stone.

The Ferengi represented us now, Sisko and the human characters represented an optimistic future.

Rather, the Ferengi were intended to represent the very worst aspect of humanity -- greed, lust for power, envy, a miserly attitude, intolerance of other peoples' beliefs, oppression of an entire gender -- they were supposed to be the antithesis of the Federation. Shimmerman's view that he needed to redeem himself with the Ferengi stems more from his desire to represent them not as gluttonous, slovenly trolls, but as people with their own personalities and their own struggles who have a culture of greed and profit deeply ingrained within them.

It's to the writers shame that the Ferengi were created in the first place, but to their credit that they so quickly realised that the Ferengi could not make an effective enemy, choosing instead to take them down a different path and (re)introduce more threatening nemeses. I don't know how far you've gotten through the show, so I won't spoil you as to who/what those nemesis are.

Everyone found the show's groove in the third season, but it lost that extraordinary fun element from the first two seasons.

"Everyone" who? Everyone you? Everyone the actors? Everyone the audience? Treat the application of blankets very carefully.

[The Urban Spaceman]

I watched Hide and Q last night. There were definitely some ridiculous moments, but I think this is one shows us much more of the Q we know and love (at least I do) than what we saw in the pilot.

So funny seeing the "grown up" version of Wesley now that Wil Wheaton is an adult. *giggle snort* They should have added a beard.

One thing I'll say is that I think John de Lancie (Sp?) really brings out the best in Patrick Stewart. Their scenes together just crackle with energy. That was fun to watch.

And of course hearing a master quote Shakespeare is always a treat.

Yes, John de Lancie is a fantastic actor. I'm not sure why Troi wasn't in this episode (perhaps Sirtis had a scheduling conflict) but it would have been interesting to see her response to Riker's change... and it would have been interesting to see what her deepest desire would have been.

[hlndncr]

Yes, John de Lancie is a fantastic actor. I'm not sure why Troi wasn't in this episode (perhaps Sirtis had a scheduling conflict) but it would have been interesting to see her response to Riker's change... and it would have been interesting to see what her deepest desire would have been.

Yes, when I was watching it I thought the same thing. But then again maybe that's why Troi wasn't in this episode. There were places the PTB just didn't want to go with this ep.

[The Urban Spaceman]

Yes, when I was watching it I thought the same thing. But then again maybe that's why Troi wasn't in this episode. There were places the PTB just didn't want to go with this ep.

Well they seemed pretty willing to go to buxom female Klingon sex-slave.

The very nefarious part of me would love to see an episode with Q introduced to the Bajoran Prophets/wormhole aliens. Can you imagine how much fun a trickster like Q would have pranking such 'serious' non-linear beings?

Thinking about the two makes me wonder -- Q is an immortal being (actually, many immortal beings) and yet they have a concept of linear time, of games, they understand life-forms (if not fully understand free choice and personality) and yet the Prophets are clueless about such things. Is it because of the Prophets' isolated existence within the wormhole that prevented them from knowing those things before Sisko met them? Do they represent a next stage of evolution for the Q, or are they a step back? Or merely beings of a similar power, only it is used in different ways?

[hlndncr]

Well they seemed pretty willing to go to buxom female Klingon sex-slave.

Star Trek writers have been enamoured of the buxom female sex-slave (of various species) from the very beginning. That was hardly a stretch for them.

Now a relationship that may have had real depth and meaning; I'm convinced that's beyond them.

I was just thinking that Troi wouldn't put up with any of his crap. She knows him too well and she knows where all the bodies are buried.

The very nefarious part of me would love to see an episode with Q introduced to the Bajoran Prophets/wormhole aliens. Can you imagine how much fun a trickster like Q would have pranking such 'serious' non-linear beings?

Thinking about the two makes me wonder -- Q is an immortal being (actually, many immortal beings) and yet they have a concept of linear time, of games, they understand life-forms (if not fully understand free choice and personality) and yet the Prophets are clueless about such things. Is it because of the Prophets' isolated existence within the wormhole that prevented them from knowing those things before Sisko met them? Do they represent a next stage of evolution for the Q, or are they a step back? Or merely beings of a similar power, only it is used in different ways?

I can't comment on this specifically because I've never seen DS9. Although doesn't it turn out that Q is kind of a rebel from the rest of the Continuum and the others do have much less of a sense of humor?

[The Urban Spaceman]

Star Trek writers have been enamoured of the buxom female sex-slave (of various species) from the very beginning. That was hardly a stretch for them.

Now a relationship that may have had real depth and meaning; I'm convinced that's beyond them.

Ah, many deep/meaningful relationships happened in DS9 (not all of them of a sexual nature). I think in TNG, the closest thing to a deep & meaningful relationship is between the friendship that grows between Data and Jordi, as the latter helps the former come to terms with his humanity (or lack thereof).

In TNG, I found many of the relationships to be rather lackadaisical. Riker enjoys the company of many fine women, but gets all surly, jealous and possessive the moment another man even so much as glances at Troi. Various characters skirt around each other, seemingly unable to make up their minds about what sort of relationships they'd like with each other.

It also amuses me that by the end of TNG, it seems that due to various alien influences, intoxications, etc, every member of the senior crew has slept with some other member of the senior crew at some point. Honestly, those guys really get around! DS9 takes a much more mature approach, focusing more on deep relationships in the form of friendships in various guises, and leaves a much more satisfying feeling afterwards.

I was just thinking that Troi wouldn't put up with any of his crap. She knows him too well and she knows where all the bodies are buried.

Ah, not all of them! He still manages to spring a few surprises on her.

I can't comment on this specifically because I've never seen DS9. Although doesn't it turn out that Q is kind of a rebel from the rest of the Continuum and the others do have much less of a sense of humor?

Hmm, yes and no. He's a bit of a rebel, but not as much as another Q (from Voyager). But I won't spoil you with that in case you do watch Voyager some day.

And I think when you reach the appropriate point in TNG, you should definitely start watching DS9 as well.

[Morbo]

we find out in DS9 that the Ferengi are actually pretty fantastic.
naked women. tons of cash. lust for gold. and the rules of acquisition are perhaps one of the greatest things in the known universe.

They did appear really lame and almost serpent-y in the original TNG eps, with their hissing and creeping around, and those awesome laser whips!

I have no research to support this, but I honestly thing the creators of TNG were just trying to give Trek fans and viewers something competely different from from the lame costumes from the original series. The first Ferengi are what came out.

[hlndncr]

I enjoyed Haven, mostly because I like Majel Barrett. She made a largely forgetable episode fun to watch. I also like Data observing humanity. "Please continue your petty bickering."

[The Urban Spaceman]

we find out in DS9 that the Ferengi are actually pretty fantastic.
naked women. tons of cash. lust for gold. and the rules of acquisition are perhaps one of the greatest things in the known universe.

They did appear really lame and almost serpent-y in the original TNG eps, with their hissing and creeping around, and those awesome laser whips!

I have no research to support this, but I honestly thing the creators of TNG were just trying to give Trek fans and viewers something competely different from from the lame costumes from the original series. The first Ferengi are what came out.

Yeah, have to agree with this, laser whips included! I think the initial concept of the Ferengi was a bit lame, but like you said, made even worse by all the hissing and hunching and being all Wormtongue-like. Terrible direction, but luckily by mid-TNG, the Ferengi started walking upright like proper humanoids and had mostly stopped all the OTT hissing. Don't get me wrong, a bit of non-verbal communication can be fun, like the growling Klingons, but with the Ferengi it just always seemed so silly and implausible.

I love how in DS9 we get to see Quark & Rom's family life, and their interactions with their mother. And even though I consider myself quite a rabid trekkie I also like all the DS9 Ferengi episodes, and the interactions of the Ferengi with the Bajorans, Federations, Cardassians, et al.

I think we all learned a valuable lesson from TNG Ferengi... if you want to make a proper enemy, don't have them all be 4ft tall.

I enjoyed Haven, mostly because I like Majel Barrett. She made a largely forgetable episode fun to watch. I also like Data observing humanity. "Please continue your petty bickering."

One of my favourite Data comments.

Also, I think Majel Barrett is a fantastic actress and plays a great role in TNG/DS9 in the form of Lwaxana Troi. I also like the opposition she presents in the Betazoid mindset, in opposition to, for example, the Vulcans. There's an episode in which she stars (you might remember it from your first watching 20 years ago) in which she acts as an intermediary with another telepathic race... the entire episode is so sad and poignant, it adds yet another dimension to her character. Very well done, I thought, but you're a few seasons off rewatching it IIRC.